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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 1972

Vol. 258 No. 9

Garda Síochána Bill, 1971—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before I reported progress I was referring to the changes in our society which pose new problems for the gardaí. In today's society the lowering of moral standards makes the task more difficult. I am not suggesting that this is a new situation because history has shown us that there have been many instances where the lowering of moral standards led to a state of degradation.

Today the problems facing the Garda Síochána are much more sophisticated and complicated than in the past. Therefore the Garda must be modernised and sophisticated to such a degree that they can cope effectively and efficiently with the new problems, one of which is the abuse of drugs, which unfortunately seems to be on the increase. The Garda have already tackled this problem in an admirable way and they should be given every assistance so that they can grapple not so much with the unfortunate people who have become addicts as with those who import drugs and sell them to unwary young people in this city and elsewhere.

I have no doubt that the Garda are at least containing this danger, particularly when I read of the position in other countries. The problem here is only starting but there is a danger that it will grow so long as there are people willing to pay fantastic prices for drugs. A lot of the work must be done in the home and parents must give every assistance to the Garda in their efforts to trace the suppliers.

Another modern problem is crowd control. We all agree that people have the right to protest in a legitimate way, always bearing in mind that their fellow citizens have the right freely to walk the streets of our cities. I wonder if our gardaí are being trained adequately in crowd control. Recently at a football match in Dublin I saw a sergeant and three gardaí first of all rescuing the referee and then splitting the crowd and handling it very cleverly. They must have been trained in crowd control because they did a wonderful job. We are so anglicised that what happens in London and Manchester seems to have become the pattern for behaviour at matches here. It may be said that cross-Channel and French and German police are better trained in crowd control but in the matter of controlling football mobs I think our gardaí are as good as the best. Perhaps we have not the same problem here as regards crowds.

Still I think it would be a good idea if we had a mounted police force to deal with crowds. We boast about the superiority of the Irish horse. I suggest we should have a mounted force of gardaí for crowd control. A crowd may be peaceful but it can contain unruly elements and then trouble starts. There may be panic in a crowd and there is danger in that also. Members of a crowd may suffer from claustrophobia and this may cause panic. I realise that initially it would be costly to establish a mounted police force but the rewards would be great. A mounted garda would have much more power; he would be better able to divide and control a crowd. As well, crowds would tend to be more peaceful when they realised they were dealing with mounted police. The Garda would also have better ability to protect people from those who want to stir up trouble. We now have a population of 800,000 in Dublin. By 1980 it will have risen to 1,000,000 in Greater Dublin. It is another indication of how the problems of the Garda are growing.

Therefore the Garda must be developed into a modern force, not simply to stop raids but in order to ensure that our democratic institutions are safeguarded and that even the humblest citizen will have his rights guaranteed and protected. This will cost money but although we are a small nation we should not hesitate to provide money in order to protect the rights of our citizens.

It was said earlier that political influence has been used in the Garda. We will always have such accusations. They would be made even if we had a perfect force. First of all the Garda must have the respect of the vast majority of our people. Secondly, they must be efficient and get all possible aid to give them that efficiency. I do not mention power in this context. They must be efficient and the people must know they are efficient and, therefore, trust them to deal with any situation.

I suggest that the gardaí should be engaged only in the fight against crime, in crowd control and national security. I suggest that the ban-ghardaí should be dealing solely with the problems of women and young children or those of them who have broken the law. Thirdly, we should have a traffic corps. It is no good passing laws here to control traffic if the gardaí cannot give their full attention to it because they have so many other duties to perform. The traffic corps should deal with all traffic problems. At present in this city the Garda Síochána are the traffic authority and all questions concerning traffic must be decided by them. A local authority cannot erect traffic lights unless the Garda, as the traffic authority, have sanctioned them. We find some of the best brains in the Garda force grappling with traffic problems while there are other problems in need of attention. If we had those three divisions it might help to streamline the whole force. The traffic corps might not at first be welcomed by motorists but eventually it would. At present when there is a march or a football match we see gardaí directing traffic while there are pickpockets, et cetera, having a great time because the gardaí have insufficient time to give to real crowd control.

The standards of our police force are as high as those of any in the world. We are fortunate that we have not had scandals such as we read about taking place very near here. However, we have no right to believe that the Garda force will go on being as good as they are in face of the increasing difficulty facing them unless we are prepared to vote taxation so that the Garda force may have all the equipment they need, proper transport, and scientific equipment.

We are facing, and we are glad of this, a growing population so our problems will become more like those of the urban areas of Europe as time goes on. At present we have a comparatively small population. Even in Dublin one knows a tremendous number of people. We still have a small city or village atmosphere. This is changing. Dublin is becoming a very consmopolitan city. People will come to live here who will not have the standards that we have been used to and they will find it difficult to accept some of our laws just as we would find it difficult to accept the laws of Germany, France, Belgium or other countries. Therefore, we have a growing population, our cities are becoming more cosmopolitan and crime is becoming more sophisticated. It would be impossible to fight crime just by doing away with the squad car and putting all the men back on the beat. We must take the best of the old system and what we need for the future. I would like to see more gardaí on foot patrol in the centre city areas. I know it is impossible for the gardaí to patrol in the suburbs. They have the problem of suburban vandalism to deal with. This is a problem too, for the schools and the parents. Vandals are mostly uneducated people, uneducated in the broad sense, not in regard to booklearning but in the general appreciation of the society in which they live. When they are guilty of acts of vandalism they must be punished but the schools and the parents must also help in this matter.

A previous speaker referred to the good work done by the gardaí in youth clubs. I know gardaí who give all their spare time to the running of youth clubs in this city. While the present generation may not reap the full benefit of that, future generations will because young people will be trained in civics and proper citizenship. When the gardaí have the trust of the people we will have a far better society.

I want to pay tribute to the gardaí for the work they have been doing in difficult circumstances. I am saddened to read in newspapers a report of Garda unrest. I am not suggesting that if there is unrest it should not be reported. I should like to see any complaints the gardaí have dealt with very quickly and effectively. I am sure the Minister would not brook any delay in dealing with their complaints. We know it is impossible to meet all the wishes of all sections of the people but the Garda Síochána are a most important section these days. I hope that the Minister's plan for the future will bring the force not just up to strength numerically but up to the strength to combat crime and assure that our democratic institutions will be protected against the very small minority who would destroy them. It is the duty of every citizen to support the gardaí because they are representing the citizens when they deal with lawbreakers. If they sometimes fail it is not always their fault. We must begin at the root of the problem by providing proper stations, the best of pay and general conditions. The man who joins the Garda force today must be dedicated. He would not join otherwise.

It has been said here that we should have a psychiatrist to examine each garda. This may be necessary to some extent, but I do not think it is a priority. There are sufficient young men who would make good gardaí if they got the best of training but, if aptitude tests are necessary, the vocational education committees in Dublin are already providing these so there is no great problem there. The greatest aptitude test a garda could have would be regarding his job as a vocation, instead of just a job, because he believes he has a part to play in our society and the part he chooses to play is that of a garda.

I presume this Bill is intended to facilitate the better usage of our Garda force. If that is the intention, then there are many, many little things that could be done, even as things stand, the better to utilise our existing manpower. It could be, of course, that the intention is, as rumour has it at the moment, to enable the Government to set up a new force to ensure that the Border is not breached in any way. Perhaps when the Minister comes to reply he will enlighten us as to whether the jurisdiction of serving chief superintendents, superintendents and men in so far as Border areas are concerned is to be replaced by a special force under a special corps of officers. If this is so, then the House is entitled to know whether or not that is the likelihood and the reasons underlying this change in policy. If, on the other hand, it is just rumour, then the sooner rumour is scotched the better. I hope it is rumour. At the moment the continued existence of the Border is in doubt, in most serious doubt, and surely this would not be the time for us to create a new special force for the purpose of special Border duty, with responsibility to their own officers and not to the normal chain of command, the chain of command we have known since the Garda were first established.

We have a very fine body of men but, as in every large group, they are not all saints. Nobody will agree with that more readily than will the majority of the gardaí themselves. There are those within the force who do not do the image of the force any good. These people discourage those who might be willing to join from doing so. Perhaps something could be done to get rid of these people.

Furthermore, is there any reason why there should be a non-uniformed force in our peacekeeping forces? Is there any necessity for a special force? Is there any necessity for a "special" special force which does not come under the jurisdiction of the normal chain of command? The operations of the Special Branch, supplemented by the "special" Special Branch, or the B Special Branch, as it was called not so long ago, are resented by the uniformed gardaí. Their activities in crowd control as recently as last week were not conducive to the peace the uniformed gardaí were trying to restore at a very critical time on the other side of Merrion Square. Do we need these? That is a question that needs to be answered. Are they contributing anything or are they a disruptive element, disrupting peace rather than maintaining it? This is possibly an aspect into which the Minister has examined. There is no pressing need for a special force and these men would be far more useful in uniform.

I think everybody will agree that the appearance of a uniform can be beneficial. A uniform is respected and its appearance is more likely to be conducive to the restoration of peace than is that of numbers of non-uniformed people whose identities are unknown and whose actions may be similar to those of the hooligans they are operating against. They have no insignia to show they are a special branch and in Merrion Square last week it was pretty evident that the activities of some of the Special Branch were resented by the uniformed gardaí. A very serious situation could have been created. The usefulness of this particular force is very much in question. The need for it should be further examined with a view to wiping it out altogether and putting these men back into uniform.

In addition, I would question the utilisation of our forces, whether it be uniformed gardaí or non-uniformed Special Branch, in collaborating with the forces in the Six Counties. That is a wastage of the manpower of our forces. This should be examined urgently. Again, would the Minister tell us when he comes to reply whether we need to send our gardaí to the English courts to prosecute people there for political offences? If this is happening, and I have good reason to believe that it is, I would ask the Minister to explain to the House why five gardaí. Technical Bureau people, fingerprint experts and ballistic experts should have been sent across to England to help in the prosecution of the two men picked up in connection with the import of arms on the "Queen Elizabeth" not so long ago. Is it a fact that two specimen pieces of armaments in that alleged consignment were brought over from here to aid the prosecution by the Crown on the other side of the Channel? If that is not true no one will be more delighted to learn that it is not true than I will. It has been suggested that it is true. If the Minister did not know about this then it is time he did. If it is suggested the Attorney General did not okay their going and that neither he nor the Minister had any knowledge of this, then someone has broken the chain of command and a stop should very, very quickly be put to that someone's actions.

We have been assured that where political offences are concerned there will be no collaboration between our peacekeeping force and the alleged peacekeeping forces in the Six Counties and cross-channel. Has that changed? If it has we are entitled to know when it was changed and how it came to be changed and what activities are being carried out in our name by our police forces, whether they be Special Branch or uniformed gardaí. We are entitled to know why the change, when the change and by whom. We are entitled to know what the most recent activities have been in the particular case I have mentioned. I understand five of our people went over last Friday week and attested the statements already given by them. I understand that the arms produced in evidence were in fact, supplied by these men. That is a waste, to say nothing more, of the manpower of our peacekeeping forces. It is a waste we can ill afford with our chronic shortage of manpower. If these activities are taking place with the Minister's knowledge, then they should be stopped. If they are taking place without his knowledge, then he should see to it that whoever is responsible is stopped, that we shall have no more of it and that members of the force will be utilised for the purposes for which they were recruited and appointed. It is not their job to go outside this country to help prosecute people charged with political offences relating to, or directly concerned with Partition and the removal of the Border.

As regards traffic control in the city, instead of wasting time talking about what could be done with more gardaí to control traffic, the Minister and his Department should lean very heavily on the Department of Local Government which in turn should lean on the local authority to get on with the job of making it possible for traffic to move in this city in the near future. It would be little use to have more gardaí or specially trained traffic police—which I think we should have throughout the country—if we continue going blindly ahead choking up the city with developments which the road structure was not intended to carry. Despite all the talk in my time, before it and since, nothing has been done about it and the city is being slowly choked. All extra gardaí will do is add to the congestion, so bad will it become before many years have passed. I sympathise with the Garda and the Department of Justice in the dilemma in which they find themselves. It will soon be a physical impossibility to keep traffic moving and no amount of manpower will make any difference if the streets are unable to carry the amount of traffic we are trying to put through them. This is being added to day by day without taking any of the obviously necessary steps to relieve the bottleneck. Even if it costs many millions to do so, that job must be done and if not done now it will have to be done later at much greater cost.

We heard a good deal about crowd control which I suppose is topical and appropriate enough on this Bill, but it would rate quite a low priority so far as I am concerned as regards what we need for our peace keeping force. I am thinking of gardaí going around, wasting good time checking dog licences, helping in census taking and other matters which are surely not work that should be required of the gardaí today. This matter should be re-examined and all the trivia that make up so much of the drudgery of a garda's life should be examined with a view to handing these tasks over to some other specialised group. They should not clutter up Garda stations, taking up the time of the gardaí and officers with paperwork which could have no impact as far as peacekeeping is concerned. For years the gardaí themselves have been concerned about this work with which they are still burdened to a degree greater than they should be. To some extent removal of these duties could expand the manpower available for the purposes for which it is really needed.

The conditions of premises in which the gardaí must work are in many cases stone-age. A good deal has been and is being done and I have to doubt an even greater amount requires to be done urgently in the future not only in regard to the barracks and offices in which these men work but throughout the country in regard to the provision of a decent quota of housing by the Department of Justice for their own personnel in every sizeable town in the country. A good start was made on this some years ago where 1,000 of these houses were commissioned by the Department. Half of them were built by the NBA and the remainder by the Board of Works. This job should continue to be done and should be accelerated. I am talking not only about the improvement of housing conditions for the gardaí because in many cases their arrival in local towns places an added burden on the housing resources available. There would be a double benefit therefore, if more houses were built for the gardaí, because not only would the members of the force benefit but local authorities would be relieved of the task of providing houses for them as they are doing in many cases at present while they have great numbers of deserving cases on the waiting list for houses not yet provided.

These things could be of some value in creating a better atmosphere and better conditions for the gardaí. They should be relieved of trivia that are no real part of a policeman's life and they should be able to devote their time entirely to police work. I think they should also be given the opportunity of knowing who is working with them when they are engaged in any involved situation such as might occur at any time in the big population of a city like Dublin. They should be at least aware of those who are supposed to be helping them from the Special Branch and there should be some way in which the ordinary garda would be able to recognise Special Branch men. If they are to be recognised, they must be uniformed and if so, I suppose they could thereafter be regarded as members of the Garda Síochána which I advocate they should become. At the moment there is no place for them in our society: they are not a help to uniformed gardaí and may often be a hindrance. Very often they may be working not directly under uniformed men and can create more trouble than they can help to avert.

The Garda are doing their best about traffic but it is a problem about which they cannot ultimately do very much. What they are doing is being done with very inadequate tools in that day to day decisions are taken which result in choking up the whole city. This is happening in the towns also. Additional gardaí can do nothing to relieve the congestion which is now becoming so great in Dublin that shortly traffic will not be able to move at all. This is no fault of the Garda.

There may well be justification for the erection of more traffic lights and this matter is said to be the prerogative of the Garda, but in the situation of drastic traffic congestion in which we find ourselves there should not be so many traffic lights in the centre of the city. There is no substitute for a good pointsman in getting traffic to move to the best advantage. Far from welcoming more traffic lights in the more congested streets of cities and towns I say we need less of them and more well-trained, "born" traffic policemen who can put through more traffic than lights can, whether time-controlled or switch-controlled. Father out from the city or the town traffic lights can take some of the burden off the gardaí and I favour that; but as congestion grows, the traffic lights now in the heart of Dublin should be taken away and reinstalled perhaps nearer the perimeter. As congestion further grows out there they should again be removed further out because no mechanical device can substitute for a good pointsman no matter how good it may be or how well-timed and used. It does not give the same throughput of traffic as the human operator.

The Minister should not be influenced by the pressure for more manpower by releasing men from point duty and using lights for the purpose of directing traffic. That would be self-defeating and could not be a solution to the problem. The local authorities and the Department of Local Government must get a move on to create greater space for the movement of traffic. This is what we should aim at. Nobody knows better than the Department of Justice that in the present circumstances it is not possible to have a free flow of traffic because, as one might say, you cannot put a quart into a pint measure. This is what we are trying to do at rush hours in this city and in other towns throughout the country. Either we have more space or there will have to be a strict clamp down on developing traffic within the city, traffic that now must get out through the bottlenecks that are there. We cannot have it both ways. We cannot develop within the city while, at the same time, not spend money eradicating these bottlenecks.

In regard to whatever new arrangements may be made in respect of the gardaí, we look forward to hearing the Minister indicate whether the question of a special Border force is merely rumour or whether such a force is being contemplated. I hope such is not being contemplated but if it is perhaps the Minister will be able to enlighten the House as to why it is necessary, how it will be constituted, whether it will be officered by men already in the force, whether it will be an entirely new force, whether it will be under the chain of command in any way of the existing Garda command structure, or whether it will be a free floating force under some new agent and not connected with the Garda in the strict sense. However, I hope all of this is only rumour and that we are not discussing this Bill under a false pretence and that it is for the general purposes indicated by the Minister, and on the basis that it has been discussed by the other speakers. I would hope, too, that there may be some useful purpose in the passing of the Bill but, candidly, I cannot readily see any such purpose. Of course only those working from within realise what disabilities the present laws may be imposing in respect of the gardaí and in respect of the utilisation of the force. I was not aware that there was such a disability to the extent that a Bill such as this is necessary. If the Bill is for the purpose of eradicating the type of disadvantages that we have experienced already, it will improve the role of the force and will be well worth the time given by the House to its consideration. Before the next Stage we will know whether the Bill is for the purpose of creating the rumoured force I have mentioned. If it is we would have to be well satisfied that such a force was necessary and justified and would be useful and helpful in so far as the future of our peace-keeping is concerned before we could support the Bill.

While our Garda force is excellent we must not, at the same time, do too much back-clapping in regard to them merely because they are the force in command and in authority in so many ways connected with our daily lives. Where we are aware that there are a few within that force who are not a credit to it we should not be afraid to condemn because those few are not creating a good image for the force but rather are being detrimental to it in so far as the public are concerned. They are resented by the vast majority of their own colleagues who know them better, perhaps, than anybody else. Those who deserve our praise, that is, the vast majority, should receive it but the others should receive our condemnation and there should be some manner by which they could be removed from the force. The force consists of a large body of people and like any large body, contains people who are not all good. There are a few in the Garda Síochána whom we would be better off without not only from the point of view of their own colleagues but also in so far as the public are concerned. Because of the actions of these few, a bad image can be given to the force generally.

Last week Deputy Blaney was described as a warmonger but there is a danger this week that he might be described as a rumour-monger. However, I shall leave that to the public to decide. An increase in the Garda force need give no rise whatever to any fear on the part of any law-abiding citizen. I would like to pay tribute to the Garda force not only for what they are doing now but for what they have done through the years. As a member of the party that established this force, I am proud to be able to pay tribute to them. Last week television viewers throughout the country watched gardaí trying to protect an embassy. Would we not expect the same effort by the British police if our embassy in Britain was attacked? There must be adequate means by which the gardaí can be protected in the course of their duties especially on duties such as the one I have just mentioned. It was galling to see the behaviour of some of the troublemakers outside the British Embassy. I would say that at least 95 per cent of the people who took part in that protest——

We are dealing with the strength of the Garda.

I am dealing with the strength of the Garda on the night that the British Embassy was burned. There was a handful of gardaí present against a very large number of demonstrators.

Three hundred gardaí.

In addition to the troublemakers, there were many decent people taking part in that protest.

The Chair would point out again that we are dealing with the strength of the Garda.

The point I am making is that the strength of the Garda on that occasion was not sufficient and I would like to pay tribute to them for the manner in which they stood up to insult and attack.

Hear, hear. They were experiencing the same emotions as the demonstrators whom they were trying to hold back.

Of course. Certain standards are required before one is accepted as a recruit in the force. In the past recruitment was reasonably easy but with so many jobs available to young men today they will not be very anxious to have a job in which, at times, they must work during the night and in which their lives are endangered. Therefore, it might not be quite so easy in the future to recruit martyrs for dear old Ireland. Of course, there are rules to be observed at the training depot in Templemore but some of these are nothing short of tyrannical. Is it not strange to hear that the recruits must have three haircuts in a week?

Surely the Deputy does not intend going into such detail on a Bill that deals with the strength of the Garda force?

With these tyrannical rules in existence you will not get young men to join the force. While I do not hold with long hair-do's, neither do I agree with making the gardaí bald. These are the things that create a rebellious feeling among the gardaí.

It is very interesting to compare the conditions of criminals with those of the gardaí, especially in the country areas. The criminal has a nice, centrally heated cell; he has his meals served up to him. The garda often occupies a damp room. If he hangs up a coat it is green-mouldy after a few days. You are looking at me, Sir, but I have been listening to this debate all day and a certain amount of freedom has been given.

The Deputy need not anticipate the decisions of the Chair.

The gardaí should also be protected in the courts. From the way some unscrupulous solicitors present a case, one would think that the garda himself was the criminal and not the actual criminal. There are young guards who say: "What is the good of presenting a case? You have a solicitor on one side——"

This has nothing to do with the Bill.

The courts have a lot to do with this.

The Bill does not deal with the administration of justice.

Young men will not go into the force to be faced with this set-up. Fair play has been given to the gardaí by the Conroy Report. Judge Conroy is a countyman of my own. Seeing that at one time Mayor Lynch hanged his own guilty son in the name of justice, I am glad to see justice being dispensed by a man from my own area.

I wonder will the wastage we have at the moment be compensated for by the numbers who will be recruited. I think it is a matter of locking the stable door when the horse has gone. The only hope now is that the field gate below will be locked and that the horse can be kept in.

I often give a lift to people coming from my town to Dublin and have asked them how many policemen they have seen in crossing the countryside, and they say: "Not one". I have used the occasion to say that it shows the amount of peace we have here. If you go to the North of Ireland you will find a police state. We have not reached that and, please God, we never shall. Nevertheless there should be a greater increase in garda numbers than the Minister is providing for.

In England the police do not use squad cars of the type we have here. They use a little pepped-up van that can travel at up to 80 or 90 miles an hour, although, to look at it, you would hardly take it to the scrap yard. That is how the criminal is caught off-side. I would recommend the use of this type of van here in order to apprehend criminals. The squad car here has the light flashing on the roof and the criminal sees it and goes up a side street and escapes. I am not saying that the gardaí have not done wonderful work with the squad cars, but this "Here we come" sign gives the criminal advance warning. Therefore, I would recommend to the Minister that he would consider the suggestion I have made.

A great deal of the time of gardaí has been wasted in guarding banks. The banks have their own man there with a little bit of hardware in his pocket that will deal with these gentlemen when they come in. It is not fair to have gardaí placed outside these banks, as has been proved already in this city; I do not like to refer to it. I do not see why they should make martyrs out of themselves when the bank could provide greater protection for itself than that of a mere garda with a baton. The criminal will take his own way out and the garda has no chance. Of course if it was a man-to-man combat many of these criminals would not get away.

I should like to inquire if there have been changes or if it is proposed to make changes in the standard qualifications for the gardaí, and if those changes relate to height, the standard of education, or what. I hope that if such changes are implemented they will not interfere with the type of garda we get. A man who might be under the requisite height could be tough, the type of man criminals would not expect to be a garda, and with a little bit of judo he could wrap some of these fellows around his back and they would have great respect for him.

I should like to see a greater knowledge of first aid among the gardaí. I know they get a certain amount of training in first aid. Never was there greater need to save life than at the moment. The function of a garda is to save life and property. First aid can play a very important part in saving life.

Once again I should like to pay tribute to the Garda and I hope that the few points I have raised will be noted by the powers-that-be. I know the minds of the Garda throughout the country. My people before me were interested in the establishment of the force. We have a certain degree of pride in them. I am glad to see that they are keeping a high standard and I hope that will continue.

The fact that the Garda force are about to be increased by some 600 will be received with joy and a sense of relief throughout our country. Many will say that this is indeed long overdue. It has come about as a result of public clamour for an increase in the Garda force. Over the past number of years anxiety and widespread indignation have been felt by all our people as a result of the diminishing force and the vast increase in the incidence of crime.

Almost all of our public authorities have had to protest publicly and send representations and deputations to Ministers for Justice in recent times demanding that the force be increased in order to protect life and property. It has been a matter of astonishment to us all that successive Ministers for Justice did not act quickly to increase the force, especially having regard to the political climate in which we live. The Minister for Justice and his predecessor were guilty of dereliction of duty to this House and to our country. They were guilty of the greatest crime of all, that of leaving the lives and property of large masses of our people in cities, and towns, and villages and in the countryside, devoid of adequate protection.

A large number of our citizens have been stricken with fear: fear of attack in their homes, especially the lonely and the isolated, fear of attack on the streets of our towns and cities, fear of attack in their places of business. These attacks have been growing and many have resulted in tragedy. Despite that worsening situation, despite our endeavours in this House, we failed to impress upon the Minister for Justice the urgency and the necessity for increasing the Garda force and giving our people the protection to which they are entitled.

This increase in the force is long overdue, as I have said. We expect to have a force of 7,560. I assert that it will take that force a long time to catch up on the backlog of crime, and to attain normalcy again. The Minister admitted in his speech that crime has increased considerably. Our prisons are full to capacity. Indeed, there are two and three prisoners where only one should be in a given cell. The force have been recognised as being inadequate for a number of years. The force as constituted were, to the minds of many men expert in the field of crime, wrongly and wastefully deployed.

Reference has been made to the Conroy Report. The Minister boasts and gloats in his speech that he has implemented in very large measure the recommendations in that report in respect of better pay, conditions of employment, leave of absence, rest periods, and proper pay for overtime worked. I assert that the Minister has welshed on the Conroy Report. Part of our problem in respect of the lack of detection of crime has been that the Conroy Report was not implemented by the Minister in the spirit and intention of the report especially in the matter of payment for overtime. This concession was given grudgingly, if at all. There was a marked reluctance to pay the Garda adequately for extra duties. This has had serious repercussions. The Minister should have been prepared for the consequences of payment for overtime on the acceptance of this report.

These matters do not arise relevantly. We are discussing the strength of the force and the question of emoluments or pay does not arise in any way.

I will not pursue the matter, but I was about to make the point that this was in very large measure attributable to a marked reluctance on the part of garda to do extra duties for which the Minister was not prepared to pay them. This destroys the whole concept of the policeman who is supposed to be on duty all the time. It was, therefore, a great pity that for pecuniary reasons the Minister and his Department sabotaged this essential part of the report and made impossible the proper utilisation of the marginal force that was available in our various centres.

In recent times the Garda force in this country have been run down to a new and dangerous low. Crime detection and prevention, as such, are things of the past, and it has become all the more difficult to deal with crime. One could talk for a long time about the recommendations of the Conroy Report but this might not be in order. The obstinacy of the Minister in refusing to apply the appropriate rates of pay as laid down in that report, especially for overtime work, was a grave mistake.

The question of pay does not arise on this Bill.

We had to contend with a bad situation, and it was aggravated out of all proportion by a stupid decision to close Garda stations. This has left our people in many parts of Ireland open to attack from thugs and gangsters of all kinds. I hope that in the present climate there will be a re-think on the matter of closing Garda stations in rural Ireland. On every occasion that there has been a closure we know that the adjoining Garda station were unable to take on the additional duties because their own numbers were depleted.

The Deputy who spoke before me referred to the utilisation of so many of our gardaí for the protection of our banks. I have protested about this on many occasions in this House. It is grossly unfair to the rest of the population in a small centre where there are only a few gardaí to maintain law and order that a number of them are utilised day in and day out standing outside the banks. The rest of the population in the country are also property owners and ratepayers, who have their lives and property to protect. The banking institutions in this country with their vast resources should be able to protect their own properties and funds. The Minister for Justice should insist that they should take over the protection of their properties. It is pathetic, especially in a small rural town, where there are only half a dozen gardaí, to see them outside the bank as if it was the only thing of importance in that community. We know it is important but it is no more important than the property of the rest of the community. If there were sufficient gardaí they could stand there night and day, but the fact of the matter is that there are not sufficient gardaí and they should not be utilised in protecting banks alone. In these modern times, with the sophisticated mechanisation available to banking institutions, they should be able to guard their own property. The Garda force are wrongly used in protecting banks to the exclusion of other property in the particular area. We also wish to see the Garda becoming less involved in menial tasks of dealing with parking offences, traffic wardens, collection of dog licences and all those paltry things which could quite easily be passed on to some more appropriate body.

There has been talk here of improvement in the facilities of the Garda force. We should like to see our Garda force ultra modern with the best equipment in the world. We know they are respected by our people and we expect them to act in a courteous and humane manner at all times. Some of the appliances which they are obliged to use are very primitive, archaic and outmoded. It is well known in this city that criminal minded people are far in advance of the gardaí in respect of many devices. The utilisation of the patrol car is understandable but its use in rural Ireland leaves much to be desired. Many of us in this House have always asserted that no one can effectively replace the man on the beat. He is the person who has been primarily responsible for maintaining law and order in this country and every other country. The movement away from the man on the beat is something to be deplored. The action of the patrol man was the most successful deterrent against crime of any kind.

I should like the Minister to give us his views on the desirability of utilising more and more the police force for patrol duty of the kind I have in mind. It is of great astonishment to many of us in the towns and villages of this country that policemen who were always known to be on duty at a particular point to carry out a certain beat are now no longer to be seen. Our people are worried at the length of time it took to get a garda when serious incidents involving attack, robbery and bloodshed occurred. This is also true in respect of serious accidents. There is something fundamentally wrong when you do not see a garda on patrol duty in a town or village and when it takes a considerable time to get one to the scene of a crime. I appeal to the Minister to desist from emphasis on the patrol car. Some people unfairly and wrongfully allege that it is merely joyriding around. As I have said, I do not think anything can beat the policeman on foot who has specific duties to perform in the area of his patrol and who knows intimately all the people and the property in that area. He cannot be replaced and I trust the Minister will agree with me.

We are talking in circumstances in which the Minister admits our detection rate in respect of crime amounts approximately to 50 per cent all over the country. In other words, half the crimes committed are not solved. This is the position at a time when the incidence of crime has increased by 20 per cent, almost, in the past 12 months. In the political climate in which we are living it is fair to assume that major crime is increasing. As I said earlier there are people who live in fear.

I had to bring to the Minister's attention by way of question the fact that old people living alone in isolated areas were being attacked in my constituency, beaten nearly to death and robbed of their possessions. As yet no one has been caught for these nefarious crimes. This is a fairly regular occurrence. There is widespread vandalism. Pickpocketing is rife in the cities, old people are being picked on in particular and are subjected to assault by thugs. Thuggery is on the increase. There is evidence of brutal assaults. Breaking and entering is on the increase according to statistics.

There is fear throughout the land that there has been an abandonment of the people by the Minister for Justice. Worse still, up to now there has been no redress for such victims. One reported a crime and that was the end of it. It has not been the fault of the police because they have been inundated with work at a time when they were frustrated in their attempts to improve their working conditions. A grudging Minister and his Department did nothing for them and their morale has been at a very low ebb.

I hope to see that situation improved in the near future. We had reached a sorry stage when the feeling was abroad among criminal elements that crime does pay, that by reason of lack of Garda supervision there was licence to do virtually what one liked. We have had too many criminals getting away with too much and the Minister did nothing about it.

I do not wish to take up the time of the House unduly on this important measure but I should like to refer to the Minister's speech and the reference to the Report of the Conroy Commission. He spoke about improvements in Garda conditions of employment. We want to have a happy and contented Garda force, properly paid for the work they do. The Minister should appreciate how important that is from many aspects—that gardaí should be properly paid so that they do not have to resort to any other means to maintain themselves.

I was glad to hear that something is being done to provide for Garda widows. They have been shabbily treated by this House and by successive Ministers for Justice. By reason of the very small pensions they had, many of them found it necessary to apply for non-contributory old age pensions. Unfortunately, as a result of a small increase in their pensions in recent times, many Garda widows partially lost their pensions as well as some perquisites such as free electricity, free travel and free television licences. I sincerely hope that the provision now being made for Garda widows will be adequate, and I ask the Minister to consult with the Minister for Social Welfare so that reductions, curtailments or withdrawls of widows' pensions or old age pensions will be avoided in respect of Garda widows with slender means.

In the Minister's absence I mentioned my concern about the continuing closures of Garda stations in rural areas and the inability of neighbouring Garda stations to deal adequately with the needs of the people. I should like an assurance from the Minister that he will desist from his policy of closing these stations and that he will even consider the possibility of reopening some of those that have been closed. This would give new hope to our already panic-stricken people, and we can point to many areas where this is the position.

Naturally I support the idea that there should be better housing conditions for the gardaí. Many of the houses at the moment leave much to be desired. I was pleased to learn that the services of the National Building Agency have been utilised for the acceleration of the drive to build houses for the gardaí. Having the State depending solely on the Board of Works could not have the desired effects. Indeed in respect of a body like the Garda, I would not be at all surprised if I saw the Minister establishing his own work force to deal with the important matter of adequate accommodation, but if the services of the NBA were used more and more it might meet the situation.

I rose in this debate to express my appreciation of our Garda force. I appreciate the difficulties under which they work. Many of us were deeply distressed of late when we saw them under attack from our own citizens. I know that our citizens on that occasion felt enraged by what had been happening in another part of our country and what had been done to our people there. Allowing for that indignation and the rage which we all experienced, we should respect our own forces. I trust that respect will be forthcoming in the future. We should all in this House be concerned about the welfare, the efficiency, the respect for and the morale of the Garda force. I assure the Minister and his Department that we will render every assistance we can to bring about that happy situation.

We are to have an increase of 1,000 in the Garda force but to get rid of some of the unemployment there should be an increase of 2,000. If we employed more gardaí we would have to spend more money on their salaries and their training but as against that we would save a tremendous amount on malicious claims and increasing crime because people are getting away with it.

Deputy Treacy mentioned smaller villages in which there are no gardaí and gardaí have to travel five or ten miles to them. I shall speak about Dublin. In Dublin there are police stations which have just been built and they are overcrowded already. At one time when I asked a question of the previous Minister for Justice there were 24 gardaí in the Coolock Garda station; there are 37 there now. That station was only built about a year ago but it will be too small for the number required for that area. The area policed from that station is bigger than Limerick city and much bigger than Galway. There are 37 gardaí there including sergeants. Galway has something like 75 gardaí for a smaller population. I know there is a surrounding area of farmland there but the Coolock area extends to Malahide, Raheny and Santry.

Areas of Dublin, north and south, are completely under-manned. I have got letters—members of the Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour Parties have got them too—from people whose houses have been broken into. They get the gardaí but the only way the gardaí can catch the person concerned is by catching him in the act elsewhere and having him admit this particular crime. There are gangs, not always from the poorer areas but from many of the wealthier areas, roaming round in Dublin. The gardaí do their best to stop them but find it impossible because they are understaffed. I know of a case where a petrol bomb was thrown into oil in a fish and chip shop. The whole place went on fire and there could have been three or four people killed. There are not sufficient gardaí to go round.

Since the hours were reduced, following the Conroy Report, overtime—I do not know whether on the direction of the Minister, his Department or the men's immediate superiors—has not been paid to many gardaí. Their hours have been very nearly halved over a number of years. I do not know whether the superiors have some incentive to keep costs down but they are giving practically no overtime. Where overtime is given the station sergeant has to sign seven forms before a man can be paid the money.

I am afraid, Deputy, this does not arise on the Bill. As I pointed out to Deputy Treacy, it has no relevance. It would be a matter for the Estimate but not for the Bill.

The gardaí should be used outside doing the work they joined the force to do and typists or clerks could do the work they are doing in the station.

Instead of increasing the number of gardaí when the hours were reduced there was a reduction because of people retiring, dying, et cetera. The numbers were allowed to dwindle. Now we are increasing the number by 1,000. I reckon we should increase the force by 2,000, 2,500 or 3,000.

I only agreed with one point made by Deputy Blaney. When he was a Minister he did not tell the Minister for Justice what he told the Dáil today. We have got too many gardaí doing office work, delivering summonses, dealing with census forms and dog licences. All these things could be done in another way and let the gardaí do the work they chose to do.

The Minister was a practising solicitor so he knows the amount of Garda time taken up in courts. I have often gone to court for the renewal or confirmation of a licence. The garda must be there and the judge tells him to go to the end and wait. I have seen 40 or 50 gardaí waiting. Surely there should be a lay-out of hours so that ten people would be heard in the first hour and ten people in the next and so on. As it is, the gardaí must wait on to suit the judge rather than the judge suiting them. You will find 50 gardaí in court, some with criminal charges. You may find a superintendent there for a licensing application which could have been ratified, provided there was no objection to the licence, without going to court. Very often when the gardaí go to court after months of work the people concerned are let off with a warning.

A greater number of gardaí are required for the Dublin area. There are duties we do not think of like the policing of Leinster House, the embassies, Dublin Airport and Aras an Uachtaráin. These things take gardaí away from their normal duties. Then there is the traffic problem. I agree with Deputy Blaney that it is a bottleneck. The city is getting bigger and no matter what the gardaí do they cannot control the traffic problem. It was suggested at one time that staggering working hours might lead to a better opportunity of regulating the traffic but, so far, nothing has come of that suggestion.

In the last few years, particularly in the last two years, the gardaí have had extra work to do. One of these is guarding the banks. As Deputy Treacy said, they get no payment for this. If a private individual needs Garda protection he must pay for it. I do not see why the banks should not pay. They are private concerns.

At the drop of a hat there is a parade. You mention it and they will march. These parades present certain difficulties. Deputy Blaney does not want a Special Branch. Now I wonder why? At the moment we have people threatening business people. A premises was burned right beside me the other day because someone thought that it should close. People were subjected to threatening telephone calls: Close, or else!

More police are required. I do not think 1,000 more will be enough. I think the figure should be 2,000 or 2,500. The existing force cannot cope with all the work. There has been an increase in bank robberies. I do not know what percentage of these robbers were caught, but I am sure if it was 10 per cent that is as much as it was. Violence cannot be controlled if the strength of the force is inadequate. Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick of Cavan suggested we should have riot squads. I agree with that. These squads should be properly equipped to enable them to police the country properly.

As I said, Deputy Blaney is against the Special Branch. He seems to think that the 1,000 proposed recruits are for the purpose of having a special "O'Malley Brigade" to hamper Deputy Blaney and his friends. At least, that is all I could get out of what he said. If these men are needed on the Border I do not see why they should not be used there. Wherever there is trouble that is where the police must be. Oddly enough, Deputy Blaney does not want them on the Border at all. I believe the Special Branch should be increased in number. I do not know of any country which has not got a special branch of some kind. I think recruiting 2,000 or 2,500 more men would be a good investment; the increased numbers would be more than compensated for by the fact that local authorities and the Central Government would no longer be required to pay out huge claims for malicious damage, such a claim as we will have to meet for the British Embassy.

I welcome the provisions in this Bill. Appeals have come from all over the country for an increase in the number of gardaí. The need for this increase is underlined by the rising crime rate. The force is under strength. It is not equipped as it should be equipped and there are many shortcomings in facilities. The Minister has received resolutions from local authorities all over the country demanding more gardaí.

I join with those who have asked the Minister to implement the outstanding recommendations of the Conroy Report. I appeal to the Minister to make conditions such as will restore confidence and the happy relationship that existed and which seems to have disappeared. Much remains to be done from the point of view of improving conditions.

I should like to say a word now about widows of gardaí. They have been hit by inflation and the pensions some of them draw bear very little relationship to the present value of money. They are at a disadvantage. Above anything else we must have a happy and contented police force. This is most important. Perhaps more than in the case of any other group of State employees we should do everything possible to ensure that not only do they get but appear to get a fair deal. They have a difficult job to do at times and particularly in recent times they have had an especially difficult job to do and sometimes a very unpopular job.

I want to refer to one aspect of Garda duties. I think it is appropriate to do so on a Bill such as this. Possibly, I would prefer to deal with the matter in another way, but the opportunity which presents itself might not be available to me again if the other means by which I would hope to raise it failed. I want to deal with the subject-matter of a number of questions which I put to the Minister in past months dealing directly with the duties of members of the Garda Síochána. I hope that the increased membership will not be used to allow gardaí to engage in the activities to which I now wish to refer. Only today, as a trade union official, I attended a meeting of trade unionists who were locked out of work because they used their constitutional right to join a trade union. This morning, I discovered that while we were at the meeting we were kept under observation and those who came to the meeting or left the meeting, including myself, were kept under observation by gardaí. I do not want to go into detail. I mention it primarily because we are discussing a Bill to increase the membership of the Garda Síochána and I think we are entitled to question and probe the use to which the force is sometimes put. At the end of October last this trade dispute to which I refer began at the premises of North Kilkenny Meat Exports, Limited, at Freshford, County Kilkenny, when 15 workers out of 21 who joined the Irish Transport and General Workers Union were locked out of work.

I wonder does this arise on the Bill?

Perhaps the Minister would permit me finish what I have to say on this point. They arrived at their place of work, not knowing they were going to be locked out, at the normal starting time. The manager of the plant had the gate locked and he also had the local sergeant there—I shall not say to assist him—but certainly, the action the local sergeant took, of stopping the cars of those who were locked out, checking their licences and insurance, their tyres, et cetera, while those going into work were not stopped, conveyed the impression to these men that they were some kind of criminals because of what they had done. I think the Minister will agree this sort of thing should not happen, that gardaí should not be used——

The Deputy will appreciate that this concerns the administration of justice.

If we agree to increase the membership of the Garda Síochána under this Bill I want to ensure that increase will not be used for the activities which I shall mention without going into too much detail. I can supply the Minister with more details about this matter into which I would ask him to hold an inquiry. I tried to do it by means of questions but in replying to questions on this subject the Minister had wrong information, information I know to be untrue. I can prove this.

When we have a Garda sergeant stopping or holding up in the street people who are honouring an official trade union picket and questioning them on what was said to them at the picket line, and when we have the employer telling people who do not pass the picket that they must not leave the area until they have been interviewed by the local sergeant, I think we are entitled to examine the position. We are entitled to an inquiry. As a trade union official I am responsible for these men who have been out of work now for 16 weeks.

Remarks that might be prejudicial to any type of inquiry or any action that might take place in court should be avoided.

I shall simply pose those few questions. I should like to know why, on a certain date, people who honoured a picket line were held up and questioned by a Garda sergeant with a view to ascertaining why they did not pass the picket. They were asked what had been said to them by those on the picket line. Another incident I might quote concerns what happened to me while driving on the Ashbourne road. On that occasion I was followed by a patrol car which was manned by a sergeant and a garda. While they followed my car, the blue light on their vehicle continued flashing so that one would get the impression that I was a criminal of some kind. Having passed me, they stopped in front of me——

Has this any relevance to the Bill?

What I want to know is whether the proposed extra gardaí are to be used for activities of the nature I have just described because if such is to be the case, I could not support the Bill. All the sergeant had to say to me on that particular occasion was that the rear number plate on my car was dirty. At the same time that car was escorting two lorries from Northern Ireland that had passed picket lines. One of the lorries had no number plate at all——

Again, the Chair must point out to the Deputy that these matters might be the subject of legal proceedings and as such must not be referred to here on this Bill which deals with the proposed increase in the strength of the Garda Síochána.

The front number plates on the two lorries to which I have referred were covered with muck that came from under the mudguards of the Garda car and, therefore, I would like to ask the Minister——

The Deputy must come to the Bill.

I wish these matters to be investigated. The Garda are being misled in this situation. They are taking advice from outside to which they should not listen at all. In order to carry out their duties fairly they should not listen to one side of a story only. On the 16th December last, in reply to a supplementary question, the Minister——

The Deputy will appreciate that this could not be the subject of this Bill. He would be free to reopen questions and put down fresh questions but we could not discuss them in the terms of this Bill.

On that occasion I told the Minister that there were two patrol cars with each consignment of horse meat but the Minister replied that such was not the case. I merely wish to point out to the Minister that his information was not accurate. Since then there has been only one patrol car with most consignments.

From what I have witnessed during the past 16 weeks, I am concerned about the activities of the Garda. The activities of the Garda Síochána should be examined and an inquiry held. Members of the force should not be engaged in providing encouragement because that is what they are doing indirectly in so far as lorries from outside the Republic are concerned. In this way the rights of workers according to the Constitution, are being denied to them.

I have allowed the Deputy to develop a point but at this stage I advise the Deputy to deal with the Bill.

I have made the point that I wished to make on that particular subject. I did so because I considered it relevant to the Bill. I wanted to emphasise that particular aspect of the matter so that the Minister may become aware of what can happen through no fault of any individual in the force but what can happen, possibly, from outside influences and pressures. I hope that these isolated incidents will not be allowed continue. There is much useful and urgent work that members of the garda must undertake.

The increase in the number of mobile patrols would have a bearing on the matters I have raised in so far as I have definite information regarding patrol cars being used to escort consignments of horse meat from a particular plant. As many as 20 gardaí are being used at any one time on this task while the crime rate is rising steadily. We all welcome the extra facilities being made available to the Garda. The provision of additional cars and improved radio equipment is very necessary. The figures quoted by the Minister of the increase in crime et cetera are no reflection on the gardaí because they have been working under tremendous pressure over the past number of years, pressure that leads to frustration and discontent. I would urge the Minister to continue his efforts to ensure that discontent is diminished and eventually abolished from the force.

The provision of Garda stations and new living quarters should be accelerated. In many cases the gardaí are still living in buildings that were inherited from their predecessors. The force has a very high tradition of service to the community to live up to. That high tradition can be maintained only by increasing the numbers and improving the conditions of the gardaí.

In regard to the matters to which I have referred. I could go into much more detail to spotlight the type of outside pressure that is sometimes brought to bear on members of the force, pressures which should not be exerted from any quarter. The gardaí should be able to carry out their duty in an independent way; they should be able to preserve the peace without fear or favour. Furthermore, they should not accept wild accusations or jump to conclusions. I am referring to the incidents in Freshford in my own constituency. People who are locked out of work should not be made feel that they are criminals. People who honour pickets should not be made feel they have broken the law. Lorries from outside the State can come in and flout the regulations regarding registration number plates, while a citizen like myself can be pulled up for having a dirty number plate. When such incidents as those to which I have referred occur they should be investigated and the law should be applied in as fair a way as possible, as it is in 99.99 per cent of cases.

At this stage it is very difficult to convince many members of the trade union I represent that the law is being applied fairly in the Freshford area at present. I would hope that the doubts and suspicions which have been aroused and the questions I have posed here tonight would be examined further. I should hope there would be sound explanations for them. However, when I came out from the trade union meeting this morning I found that down the road everybody that attended that meeting was being observed, on whose instructions I should like to know. Members of the force do not, as a rule, do things on their own initiative unless they are pretty certain of something happening. The 15 people in Freshford should not be made feel inferior in the eyes of the law as against their employer, and the sooner that is cleared up the better. I can supply dates, times and witnesses in relation to what I have quoted here, if the Minister requires this. The reason I refer to the matter on this Bill is that I believe it is appropriate seeing that we are providing for more gardaí.

I would hope that this measure would make the people of this country and their property somewhat safer than they have been in the past, and that the provisions contained in the Bill will result in an increase in the crime detection rate. If there are any other measures like this that the Minister wants to introduce into this House to improve the conditions or the equipment of the members of the force, then he can expect full support from this party. If we have any criticism to make it is that not enough is contained in this Bill. We hope that the Minister will have further Bills to bring into the House and further steps to take to improve the situation of the Garda Síochána.

I am in very close touch with the Garda force in my constituency. I have the greatest respect for that force. At all times they are prepared to discuss any problems that may arise. They are prepared to use their discretion. They are prepared to give the benefit of the doubt if it is in their power to do so. They are very helpful to a youth who has the misfortune to break the law or to commit a small breach of the regulations. He can go to a member of the Garda, to a sergeant, or a superintendent, or a chief superintendent if need be, and those gentlemen are always prepared to talk to him, to discuss the offence and to help him. That has been the attitude of the Garda since they were established about 50 years ago and put in a very sound position under the commissionership of the late and well-known General Eoin O'Duffy.

I sometimes call into the Garda barracks. On one occasion I referred to the condition of the barracks. I was told by a very well-known police officer who met with a tragic accident and was killed outside Sligo only a few months ago—he was a great friend of mine—that plans were being prepared, money was being allocated and a good job would be done on the Garda barracks in the near future. In my opinion it will be a long time before that job is done: like the extension jobs, the reconstruction jobs and the new buildings that are on the waiting list. Many patched jobs were done instead of major repairs. A thorough job should be done to provide comfortable accommodation for the force. I should like to mention the closing of Garda barracks.

This Bill is concerned with increasing the number of gardaí.

The force would be increased if what I am about to suggest were done by the Minister. In my constituency and in many other constituencies the force has been reduced considerably and Garda barracks have been closed down. One goes with the other. The result is that crime goes undetected. In some areas people live in dread. A most unusual crime was committed in Sligo. One evening an eleven-year-old child disappeared. This was reported immediately but, through lack of co-operation and lack of contact between the Garda and the people, that crime went undetected. Later on, the remains were found. After all the work, and effort, and hardship that went into the investigation of this crime, the culprit was never found.

It is admitted by the public—and the public are not bad judges—that the Garda have lost contact with them. The squad car is driven around the country manned by two members of the force. They see the people on the roads and they go through the villages but there is no contact with them. There is a big difference between having a squad car driving through the village of Strandhill and turning at the seashore, and having a sergeant and four gardaí in the area in contact with the people.

It was always said from these benches that it was unsound economics to close a Garda barracks. When complaints are made from these benches about the closing of barracks the answer we get is that it is now more economic and that it may provide a better service for the public. We have the proof of it now. In many cases, through no fault of the Garda, the information is not forthcoming to the young men who go around in the squad cars. In the early days we had Garda barracks dotted all over the country. This meant that money circulated—much more money than is put into circulation amongst the people by having a £2,000 squad car on the roads. We have today in some villages perhaps one garda. There is a garda station on the road between Mullingar and Edgeworthstown and for years there was one garda stationed there. We have villages that always had four gardaí and a sergeant and now they only have a sergeant and one garda. I suggest to the Minister, particularly at this stage when our country is in a very serious state due to the Border situation, that Garda barracks be opened at Strandhill, that there be an increased Garda force in Dromahair, that Garda barracks be opened in places like Ballintubber and that the force be increased all around. It would not be money wasted if this were done. If we had young gardaí in all those small villages all over the country it would add considerably to the security of the country and to a reduction in the number of crimes committed.

Although this has been a long debate in general the terms of the Bill have been welcomed. A great deal of other things have been said but basically the Bill has been generally approved by the House. So many points have been made that I cannot guarantee in the time available to deal with them all. As so often happens in replying to a debate like this it is easier to deal at the outset with the last point that was made. In this instance it is a point which was made not alone by Deputy McLaughlin but by quite a number of other Deputies as well. It is the question of the closure of rural stations of which I was accused throughout this debate. I would like to put the position in this regard clearly before the House so that they will have what in fact it is. I became Minister for Justice on the 7th May, 1970.

(Cavan): We will never forget it.

No, I never will. Since that date no Garda stations have been closed, apart from those on which decisions had already been taken and arrangements to close them had been made well in advance of the date I became Minister. I found then that without causing considerable problems to a large number of people, as a result of the arrangements made, I could not interfere with the closure of those stations. Apart from those two or so stations, which were not closed by my decision, no stations have been closed since May, 1970. That is the position and therefore I think it is quite wrong for Deputies to refer to this as if it were a continuing policy.

It was done some years ago for a good reason and if I had felt that it would not be too risky a policy in relation to the protection of people in rural areas I would have continued that policy. I am afraid we have a tendency now that we did not have before for certain crimes, particularly of violence, to be committed in rural areas, not by people from those areas, or even people connected with them in any way or indeed from any other rural area, but by people who travel from urban areas by motor car. It is part of our changing pattern of crime and is one that quite frankly can only be dealt with by a highly mechanised, organised police force with good communications.

That is why in the last year I have placed so much emphasis on this and why we had to double the provision in the Estimates last year for cars. That is why I have made such elaborate arrangements with regard to a radio service which, within a matter of about five months from now, will cover the whole country, whereas the previous plan would not in fact have had it covered for about four years. It is a type of crime that it is difficult for the man on the beat, as it were, to deal with. The man on the beat, the local "bobby", is an ideal man to deal with crime in a local area when that crime originates in that area, but, increasingly, we are finding that the crime does not originate in a local area. It is not local people who perpetrate the crime but people travelling in cars from a city or town 20 or 30 miles away, who perpetrate the crime and the local man is only of limited use in solving that crime.

There has been a good deal of talk in the course of the debate about the morale of the Garda Síochána and about alleged unrest in it. I do not want to minimise any unrest there may be but at the same time I would be unfair to everyone if I did not say that the alleged unrest is greatly exaggerated. I have consulted the Commissioner specifically on this point on several occasions. While he says there are grievances and a feeling of unrest in certain areas in relation to certain things, and undoubtedly that is so, there is no question of it being widespread, or of there being general unrest, or of morale in general in the force being bad.

I cannot help feeling that morale generally in the force will be made bad if members of the force are continuously being told that their morale is bad, that there is widespread unrest, that there are protest meetings of one kind or another being held continuously. There are meetings being held, of course, by members of the Garda Síochána, as they have been almost since the foundation of the force 50 years ago, but nowadays every meeting held is described as a protest meeting. Meetings are held from time to time where grievances are discussed. This has always been so but unfortunately even quite trivial things and very localised things tend to be shown up as national issues, which they are not.

I am not complaining that these matters get coverage but I believe that it is not in the national interest to have a situation where unrest or lack of morale is almost created by the very statements made in relation to these perfectly normal meetings that are held from time to time. The purpose of gardaí, or indeed anyone else in an organisation, holding a meeting is normally to discuss pay or conditions or grievances of different types. The disciplinary regulations which I made at the end of last year recognised the fact of these meetings, the right to hold them and to discuss matters of interest to members of the force.

I will do all in my power to ensure that morale in the force is as high as it possibly can be. I cannot guarantee that every grievance will be rectified on the spot. Indeed, I cannot guarantee that things that give rise to grievances can of their nature possibly be rectified at all, but within the obvious limitations that the Commissioner and I are faced with, both of us will do everything we can to ensure that morale is as high as it possibly can be.

It struck me during the past year or so that one thing that could do a lot to increase morale in the force would be the re-establishment of the Garda band and I intend, having regard to the large increase in the strength of the force which is about to take place, to re-establish that band.

Hear, hear.

I hope to have it back in action in time for the formal commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the foundation of the force which the Commissioner is organising for later in the year. I might add that the force was founded 50 years ago tomorrow, at a meeting in Dublin on 9th February, 1922, but the Commissioner felt, and I agree with him, that the summer would be a more suitable time for the celebration of this anniversary. I hope the band can be quickly restored to its former proud place as a showpiece of the force and I should like all its members to look on this as an earnest of my intentions to help build the Garda into a police force second to none in the world.

Through the years, members of the Garda have on numerous occasions shown outstanding devotion to duty and have performed exceptional police work. I have often thought that such men deserve some special note of recognition but up to now the only recognition has been the Scott Medal which can be awarded only for deeds of exceptional personal bravery. I have discussed the matter with the Commissioner who has taken the views of his senior officers on it and I now propose, with the Commissioner's agreement, to make provision for the award of a new medal which will be presented to members performing police work of exceptional merit and showing outstanding devotion to duty. I am arranging to have the various representative bodies' views on the matter. The medal which I now propose to establish will not in any way cut across the Scott Medal which has been there for a good many years but which, as I said, has been awarded only for exceptional acts of bravery where the member's life has been in serious danger. The medal I propose to establish would be for something that would be for less than that, for exceptional police work or for devotion to duty not entailing bravery to anything like that degree.

I want to refer to some of the statements made by Deputy Blaney in the course of his speech, in particular to his allegation or, as he put it, the repeating of a rumour, that it is proposed to establish a new force that would seem in some way to be independent of the Garda Síochána. He referred to this after some time as being a rumour. I am happy to assure him that is what it is, if it is even a rumour.

The Government have no intention of establishing any force outside the Garda Síochána, nor is it intended to form a force of any particular type within the Garda on the lines Deputy Blaney seems to indicate. He went on to question at some length why it should be necessary to have a non-uniformed force in the Garda and he referred to the Special Detective Unit or the Special Branch, as he calls it, as if it were something apart from or separate from the Garda. This is a line that is taken by certain people apparently in order to try to drive a wedge between the uniformed members of the Garda and members of the Garda not in uniform. There are no grounds for saying that an effort should be made to do anything of this kind.

We have, of course, a non-uniformed section of the Garda. We have always had it and always will have it. I regard it as one of the most important sections of the Garda. Not alone would I not take kindly to Deputy Blaney's suggestion that we close down the Special Detective Unit or the non-uniformed branch, but indeed I propose to strengthen it further from the extra men who will become available during the next 12 months.

(Cavan): The Deputy seemed to be talking about the section with special responsibility for delinquent Ministers.

Deputy Blaney also suggested that members of the Special Detective Unit in some way seemed to have caused trouble at the British Embassy last week and he felt that they should wear some form of identification. I want to put it very clearly on record that such members of that unit as were on duty at the British Embassy, far from causing trouble, did their duty very valiantly, as did all the other gardaí, to try to avoid the trouble that was caused by a small segment of the crowd.

Would the Minister not see to it that the numbers are taken from Garda uniforms? They look like motorcars.

We often get requests that more gardaí should have numbers—that gardaí throughout the entire country should have them. However, we will not put numbers on the Special Branch members. Deputy Fitzpatrick spoke the last day about the question of political interference with promotions in the force. As a result of the offer I made to him the last day I think he accepts that there is no foundation for this. The fact is that I have gone into this very carefully and have extracted the statistics for the past 30 years and they do not bear that out. I should make it clear that the position about promotion in the force is that the appointment of officers of superintendent rank, or higher, is by law a matter for the Government.

(Cavan): It should not be.

These appointments are made by the Government under sections 6, 7 and 10 of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act of 1925. The Government, therefore, have a statutory responsibility and duty for appointments to officer rank in the force and there can be no question of interference on their part. The records show that during the past 30 years there have been only six promotions out of 91 to chief superintendent which were not recommended in the first instance by a selection board of senior officers. Of these six cases, four were special posts outside the run of normal police duties and in the other two cases, in 1949 and 1955, the then Government, apparently, considered that there were special reasons.

I can speak with first-hand knowledge of the position since I became Minister for Justice and I have with me, and I will show them to Deputy Fitzpatrick privately if he wishes, lists in respect of promotions last year. He will see that the recommendations of the selection board have been followed in precise detail in every case.

This brings me on to another point made by Deputy Fitzpatrick. I sometimes think that the sort of men who are being put up for promotion by these selection boards, which we have always followed meticulously, may not in the long-term interests of the force be the most suitable men. I say this particularly because older men or more senior men tend to do better than younger men. It is quite understandable this should be so, particularly from the point of view of police officers recommending their promotion. At the same time there may be something in what Deputy Fitzpatrick has said about the promotion of younger men to posts of responsibility at an earlier age to allow younger and more active Commissioners to be appointed in the future. Deputy Fitzpatrick has pointed out that a man tends to become Commissioner only towards the very end of his service, perhaps with two or three years to go. I agree that that has frequently been the position in the past; but at the same time perhaps I see two sides to this problem more clearly than Deputy Fitzpatrick might. The first difficulty one creates if younger men are brought up over the heads of more senior men, even though they may well be deserving of it on their ability, is that it will immediately give rise to cries of interference. In fact you are really back to where you started because any younger man who is brought on will be alleged by those who are senior to him to have been brought on by some interference from outside the Garda Síochána. This undoubtedly would cause some unrest in the force and I am afraid it would probably cause as many problems as it would solve. It is a matter to which I will give some thought but it is not as simple at all as Deputy Fitzpatrick may have felt it was when he made the suggestion.

Another problem that it would give rise to would be the question of what happens to a man who is promoted to Commissioner at, say, the age of 45 or 50? Does he continue there for an abnormally long period like 20 years, which I think is very undesirable, or should he be asked to retire after a reasonable period such as five or six years? If he is asked to retire which would probably be the better thing to do, where does he go then? He is still a comparatively young man. As a former Commissioner he cannot reasonably be put back in the force.

(Cavan): Send him to the Board of Works.

He may be taken into some Department but he is a professional policeman who has devoted his life to the police and it may not at all suit him to be put into some form of employment, however well remunerated it might be, that simply does not suit him.

Deputy Fitzpatrick also mentioned the increase in strength which I have decided on and which we are implementing this year as being inadequate but I recall when I mentioned here last year that we proposed to increase the force by 400 that I was told then that that was inadequate and that we should increase it by 1,000. It is now 1,000 and what I want to make clear, because I think some Deputies may have misunderstood, is that it is a net increase of 1,000. It is an increase of 1,000 between last year and this year over and above the replacement of normal wastage. Deputy Fitzpatrick made the point that a very large number of people joined the force in 1942 and that they would be retiring in 1972 and that there would be an abnormally large number of retirements in 1972. That is not so. The number who joined in 1942 was 300. The number who are due to retire in 1972-73 is 42 and the number who are due to retire in 1973-74 is 36. If one adds to that a small figure for deaths and voluntary resignations the overall wastage in that year is not likely to exceed 100 by very much. That figure will be replaced quite separately by recruits in addition to the 1,000 new people who will be brought in. They will bring the strength of the force to 7,560, which is the highest it has ever been in the history of the force.

(Cavan): What is the present permitted strength? About 7,700?

The present strength is 6,760.

(Cavan): The present permitted strength?

That is the authorised strength but it is not the statutory strength which is more.

(Cavan): I think it is 7,700-odd.

Yes. The Government, until this Bill is passed, have to fix figures as well as having the overall statutory figure for each week.

Deputy Fitzpatrick referred to the fact that the refresher course for recruits did not now seem to be held. That is not so. Their training is in two parts. The first part is about five months in Templemore. Before the end of their probationary period they go back there for a further course which is part of their general training and they are not regarded as trained men until they have completed both parts of it.

I want to refer to the Conroy recommendations. Out of 52 recommendations contained in the report in regard to remuneration and conditions of service of the Garda Síochána 38, including all the major ones, have been fully implemented, three have been partially implemented, five have been accepted and talks are going on to determine how best they may be implemented. The acceptance of one other has just been announced in the last couple of days and the remaining five are being considered in accordance with priorities determined by the Garda Representative Bodies. This means that only five of 52 recommendations have not been dealt with and those five are being dealt with in the order in which the representative bodies have asked for them to be dealt with and, as one might expect, they are five of the least important of the recommendations. It is fair to say that 90 per cent of the recommendations have either been fully implemented or are on the point of being fully implemented.

Question put and agreed to.
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