asked the Minister for Social Welfare why certain clergy in the Republic continue to be classified as self-employed persons for insurance eligibility under current social welfare legislation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Insurance Eligibility of Clergymen.
10.
A person who is in Holy Orders or is a Minister of Religion or is a member of a religious community is not insurable under the Social Welfare Acts, being specifically excepted. The question as to whether such persons are self-employed does not therefore arise.
May I ask the Minister on what basis are clergymen—to put a specific case to him, on what basis and by what definition is a clergyman in the employment of the Church of Ireland classified as being self-employed?
The Schedule to the 1952 Act specifically excepts them from insurability, and I am not sure but I take it that they were agreeable to it at the time. We never had any approach except from one Church of a particular denomination about the question of pensionable insurability and the question of being employed on a contract of service is something which cannot be applied to those working in religion.
May I put a very serious situation to the Minister? Surely he is aware of the fact that the Church of Ireland have in respect of Church of Ireland clergymen made representations to his Department pointing out that there is a discriminatory section now within the 1952 Social Welfare Act, whereby if the Church of Ireland employ a Church of Ireland clergyman, a man with a wife and family, who may well be in need of a contributory retirement, old age or widow's pension, the Department still persists in informing the Church of Ireland that such clergymen are classified as self-employed and that they cannot take out an insurance card for them. Surely that is one of the things which in the Republic of Ireland requires remedying as a matter of the utmost importance? Could we have some assurance from the Minister that he will look into it?
The Secretary of the Church of Ireland Social Welfare Committee wrote to my Department once on the subject, if that might be regarded as representative, back in 1969, and I have a copy of our reply before me which is quite favourable.
The Minister has just said that only one person made representations. Does he not agree that he is the secretary of a society?
I said one representative body.
I do not think you did.
Representing one denomination. I did not want to spell out which Church it was.
May I ask if he was satisfied with the reply?
Yes. We explained to him that in any restructuring of the social welfare system—literally what we said was that we would be prepared to consider any proposal favourably.
Is the Minister not aware that a Church of Ireland clergyman in the north coming to the south with an insurance card and in a parish or school or in a prison, for that matter, as a chaplain, is peremptorily informed by the Department, notwithstanding representations three years ago by the Secretary of the Social Welfare Committee of the Church of Ireland, that he can get a self-employed card as an insured person and that he cannot get the normal insurance eligibility in the Republic? Surely we should get some positive assurance from the Minister that he will immediately bring in an amending regulation. Notwithstanding our ecumenical desires, there is no difference, according to the Minister, between a Church of Ireland clergyman with a wife and family and a Roman Catholic priest or a nun, who incidentally, in my opinion, should not be classified either as self-employed. They may be employed by Christ but Christ never had self-employed persons at any stage.
A number of these people are nuns who are getting non-contributory pensions, which makes the whole thing ridiculous.
Deputies are blowing up the case unnecessarily here. I have discussed this matter personally time and again with the leaders of the different Churches in the country—the main part of our scheme in which they might be interested—and they never put on any pressure because I would accede to it very quickly, if they did. The main thing they are interested in would be pensions and most of them have pension schemes better than any we could give them.
The Minister must be aware of the fact that some of these nuns have had to apply for medical cards. Did he know this?
No.
Taking that into account, he might have a look at this again.
One thing I can assure the House of is that I am having no pressure from any Church authority or any particular denomination.
That is not correct.
I am not even sure if they would be interested, but when I am extending the insurance scheme to cover all categories, I will be delighted to bring them in.