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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 1972

Vol. 262 No. 1

Finance Bill, 1972: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It seems quite a while since I was last speaking on this matter. We had quite an interesting session in between; I do not think certain contributions added anything to the matter under discussion, but we had a most interesting hour and a half. Let me try now to get back on an even keel. Deputy Carter talked about this being a social age and about the Minister having increased the income a dependent relative might have while the person supporting that dependent relative could still get credit for income tax on £60. The way Deputy Carter was talking one would think this would make a millionaire out of that person. One would think it was worth about £1,000 a year. The fact is it is income tax on £60 and, before the war, it would have been the equivalent of income tax on £125 at the very least, perhaps on £150, and, therefore, this income tax relief on £60 which is supposed to be so valuable is really, relatively speaking, worth little or nothing. Before the year is out it will be worth still less.

Earlier today, when the Minister was not here, there were references to the £ floating. I am afraid it is floating downwards or, as I said myself, it is sinking; the £ will be allowed to sink rather than float. Strangely enough, that is a word with a peculiar meaning in the financial world. Speaking for myself, I am all in favour of floating the £. I assume it will float, though I am doubtful that it will. So long as it floats I am all in favour of free exchange rates. Rigidity in exchange rates is like the Fianna Fáil Party's monolithic attitude. A few weeks ago here I was pulling the Minister's leg about something that had happened at a meeting in Europe and I asked him what had happened to the agreement made before last Christmas. The Minister said that this was all past. What happened to the agreement in which he took part a month or five weeks ago? How is it doing? I think the Minister knows how it is doing. The Minister is having a tough time. He is doing a great deal of hard work. Actually, I have a soft heart though I throw out an occasional barb. I do not like punching holes in a man who has been working as hard as the Minister has been recently.

Deputy Tunney talked about reliefs being granted. The one relief that should have come—it should have been give years ago—is the raising of the level at which income tax is imposed. That is the one relief which would be worth something to the ordinary worker. It is outrageous that a man with £1,200 a year is still paying income tax, even if he has two children. This is a disgrace. The same man pre-war, with no children, was free of income tax. This is the real disgrace in our income tax code.

The other disgrace is the exemption about which I was speaking before business was interrupted. Those who own the only real wealth in this country are the people who own the land. People may talk about mines, real or imaginary, about factories and everything else, but the only real wealth is the land. The idea that people who work the land and make large incomes out of it should be free of income tax is one of the greatest absurdities in modern times. It is proof that we as a people are conservative in the extreme. It is the right foot of what I was talking about a while ago, on which there is little pressure.

If we had a generally progressive social outlook we would insist on wealthy farmers paying their income tax. I come from a farming background and I also did some farming myself for about five years when it was neither profitable nor popular. It was during the war years and I was looking after a grazing farm; I had to till 30 per cent of the land and that was no joke when there were no preparations for doing the job. To make the situation much worse, just the same as the situation about which protests were made in the United States, wealthy people have devious ways of getting out of paying income tax. Legal and illegal evasion of tax both occur. The wealthy people are better at using the legal methods of evading tax, whereas the less wealthy people very often have to use illegal methods.

It shocks me to think that a single person who now has only half the real income that a man had before the war should be paying a sizeable amount of income tax. It shocks me still more that a man with a wife and two children should still be paying a sizeable amount of income tax on an income of £1,200 a year, when pre-war a married couple with no children, with the equivalent of £1,200 a year, paid no income tax. This is the disgrace of this Finance Bill. Everything else in the Finance Bill is only dotting i's and crossing t's and messing around with the way these Bills are drafted, this deplorable method of legislation over the years resulting in the fact that no ordinary person can understand this code of legislation at all. This is a great trick. It suits the fellows who make their incomes out of construing the Acts on behalf of the taxpayer and it suits the fellows who administer the system because they cannot be put on the spot by any ordiary person. They are not subject to the ordinary sanctions to which a civil servant administering any other code is subject.

It was said by one of the Fianna Fáil Deputies who spoke tonight that it was very hard to say anything about this Bill and that was proof that the Bill was good. This is not the case, of course. The reason why it is impossible to say anything about this Bill is that the Bill contains little or nothing. The Minister talks about 50,000 people being taken out of the net. Is it 650,000 or 700,000 people who are now in the net? I remember quite well—it seems only yesterday—when there were fewer than 200,000 people in this net. The smart aleck answer from those benches will be: "People are so much wealthier now than they were then that they are all paying income tax." That is not the reason at all. The reason is that the value of money has gone down and down and income tax in real terms has gone up and up and up, and it has left the unfortunate worker who is trying to feed his family and clothe and educate them, in the direct position. To go back to what we were discussing for the last hour and a half, that is the reason why the people who live in the city have no use at all for the Fianna Fáil Party, and they are right, because ordinary decency would require that some bow should be made in the direction of exempting from income tax people who are at subsistence level. As that tough old man, Ricardo, said so long ago, subsistence varies from time to time and what is subsistence level in one age is not subsistence level in another age. Accordingly, many people are paying income tax at present who in any age would not have had to pay income tax, and they would not have had to pay income tax before the first world war, let alone before the second world war, although the level of income tax at that time was 6d or 1s in the £.

That is the aspect of this Bill that I deplore. It is no use the Minister saying: "If I reduced the rate of tax or raise the level of exemption it would cost me tens of millions." It would cost him so many tens of millions because he is collecting this year £175 million in income tax. This is far and away the biggest part of the revenue. Up to comparatively recently, ten years ago, the income that came from customs and excise was very much bigger than the amount of money that came into the Exchequer from income tax. The whole thing has changed and has changed by the deliberate policy of not altering the exemption level as the value of money has fallen.

Therefore, the concession the Minister has given this year will be worthless. Already the floating of the pound, or whatever has happened to it, has already taken most of it away. In any event, it was merely restoring what was given in 1970 and taken back last year. Therefore, despite the fact that the value of money has depreciated at the rate of 10 per cent a year, we are now back where we were in 1970. In other words, the people will be paying income tax at a level at which they are 20 per cent worse off in real terms than they were in 1970.

Yes. I shall allow the Minister to explain if he wants to. Is he talking about the 9.5 per cent increase in prices one year and the 8.5 per cent increase in another? Is he talking about 18 per cent instead of 20 per cent?

I shall try to deal with this point when I am replying, but I would suggest to the Deputy that if he wants to make the comparison the only way to do it is to take figures in terms of real increases in income and to compare post-tax income of one period with that of another, adjusting for the fall in the value of money.

The Minister is not really dealing with the point I am making. I do not blame him for that; I am sure he is doing so much work at present that he is tired. He has not quite got hold of the point. He is on a different point.

I think I am on the point the Deputy raised.

No, the Minister is not, because what I am saying is quite simple. Let me become technical about it for a moment. This fall in the value of money is a compound thing. The 8.5 per cent by which prices are only supposed to have gone up last year is compound on the 100 plus the 9.5 per cent by which they went up the year before. I can stand over my figure. The Minister may take it for certain that, this being the end of June, he having introduced the budget five or six weeks ago, that even if my 20 per cent, compared with 1972, was wrong by one percentage point when the Minister introduced his budget it is no longer wrong. That degree of inaccuracy has already been rectified. It will be rectified more and more as time goes on. He will only have to wait a week or two and my figure will be quite accurate. I promised the Minister he would get an easy run on this out of our kindness of heart since he is having such a tough time.

The Minister has met one or two points in which I was particularly interested. I am very glad to see that he has been able to do something for the pensioners. People on fixed incomes will always have my sympathy. Whether they are on higher or on lower incomes it is extremely difficult for people with fixed incomes to face the phenomenal rise in the cost of living. It has gone out of all proportion. However, that is not relevant to the debate.

The Minister has dealt with one or two other points I put to him but there is one thing about which I must express extreme dissatisfaction. The Minister is not the first Minister for Finance to whom I have expressed dissatisfaction about estate duty. I have always thought that this country has a golden opportunity of doing something which no other country is doing and something that would not cost the Exchequer very much. The collection of estate duty probably entails a good deal of expenditure. I have never been able to ascertain from any Minister what it costs to collect estate duty. The amount of estate duty must be variable from year to year. People who were not within the confines of estate duty previously and not likely to be so are brought into it now. I do not know whether the Minister knows the extreme hardship estate duty is causing in all sections of the community. A recent speaker referred to the farmers, the easy time they have in life generally, how they do not pay income tax et cetera. It is the farming community and the type of farmer who is the backbone of agricultural production, the man who has between 55 and 80 or 90 acres, who is hardest hit by estate duty. I have had innumerable cases of hardship in my constituency where the breadwinner passed on unexpectedly.

A 70-acre farm at present, if it is good land, is often valued at £200 or £300 an acre. I am not as good a mathematician as the Minister for Finance so I will leave him to work that out. A farm of that size carries a good deal of farm machinery because it is quite impossible to get labour. There could be several thousand pounds worth of machinery on such a farm. A 70-acre farm would carry about £4,000 worth of stock. If one looks at the figure at the back page of this Bill one will see the high rate of interest that is payable. When the breadwinner dies unexpectedly in the prime of life, the widow finds herself having to face, perhaps, a charge from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, a bank or something like that with no funds at her disposal and she must sell all the stock to give money to a predatory State. I do not think this is sensible. I do not think it is in the national interest and it greatly militates against national production which is so essential.

Let us look at the professional arena. I do not know the price of a house in Dublin but in a town like Arklow a small house costs £6,000. I should imagine that a house of any size in Dún Laoghaire or Dublin would be worth about £20,000. Possibly there is a life insurance. I understand that although there are certain remissions on that it is included in the overall capital. Generally speaking, estate duty is causing hardship to all the professional classes. Let us look at the business arena. Take a garage, for instance. If one takes the stock, the premises, the spare parts et cetera it would run up to £30,000. There is an 18 per cent duty on that which imposes tremendous hardship. The answer to my mind is so simple. I have brought it in here year after year. I must be boring Dáil Éireann. I am not asking for the total abolition of estate duty though I think it would be an advisable thing to do. It would be a courageous thing for a Minister for Finance to do. It would be a beneficial thing for the country. If we were free of estate duty many non-nationals would ask to be domiciled here with regard to taxation generally.

Over the years I have asked successive Ministers for Finance to deduct the capital allowances that are made from the overall estate. As I read this document, £7,500 is free of estate duty in the case of a single man. It is higher for married people and people with dependent children. I am asking that the amount should be deducted from the total estate. That would give the Minister the inflow of the necessary capital. Our major problem here is that we have been short of capital. We have to use every form of inducement. We have to give huge grants to people to start factories et cetera. If we were to give them suitable facilities with regard to taxation, we would not have to do these things. We would be able to save from the finances that are dovetailed into the IDA, the ACC and such semi-State bodies. I have put down an amendment on a couple of occasions and I have been unable to get a vote. I have been unable to get the support I felt I was entitled to for it. As far as this year is concerned, we have this unsatisfactory figure and I am afraid that will continue. I hope for anybody who lives another 12 months or more that the Minister will consider this for the future. I can assure him he will go down in history if he does so as having struck a blow in regard to innovation in taxation which would be acceptable, not only to one class of society, but to all, because practically everybody is caught in the income tax net now.

Now I want to deal with surtax. A few years ago a reference to sur-tax would have aroused indignation among all the democrats in the House. A Deputy who referred to it would have been regarded as being right-wing, as being interested only in rich people. The figure at which surtax operates is £2,500. The Minister will accept that that is not a big income nowadays.

The Deputy will appreciate, of course, that that is £2,500 of assessable income, that is, after all allowances have been made.

I fully appreciate that. I am one of those who speak on behalf of the community as a whole. There are many people earning £3,000 and £4,000 a year who, because of income tax, the cost of living, the cost of educating their children and so on, are not necessarily well off. They find that the more they earn the more income tax they pay. This reduces efficiency. That was found to be the case in the United Kingdom. After the war when, in some cases, profits were considerable, it was found that surtax at the then existing level militated against production and efficiency. The level was raised.

I do not think it is realistic to impose surtax at the level of £2,500 a year income. I fully accept that there are personal and other allowances. The Minister should review the matter. As far as I can read from the document before me, an income of £4,500 is liable to 15 per cent surtax in addition to the standard rate; £6,500, to 30 per cent, and up to £50,000 a year to 45 per cent.

Persons in the lower income group are engaged in production and in securing the continuity of employment. In the case of those in the higher income group, the State takes a vast sum of money and not sufficient is left to the producer to plough back into industry. Crippling taxation hits the small man because it militates against the creation of employment opportunities.

As I have said, practically everybody pays income tax. An old age pensioner who is a widower without dependants, who goes back to work as an agricultural labourer, pays about £3.50 in income tax. I have mentioned the higher income group and the middle income group and the person at the lowest point of the lower income group scale. We have got to the stage where there is no incentive to work. That is why production is at a low level and is decreasing. The people are less well off than they were. Business is not good; money is not available.

Deputy O'Donovan who is a financial expert or an economist, suggested that farmers are not taxed. Of course, the farmers are taxed. The Deputy said that farmers pay £1 an acre in rates. I have 200 acres and I pay £1,000 a year in rates. That represents £5 an acre. A large proportion of the 200 acres is under wood, pleasure gardens and lakes, which are of no monetary value.

The Minister has inherited a system whereby the country is strangled. Heavy taxation is imposed on everybody. I believe in a free economy, in private enterprise. Success should be encouraged. What encouragement is there to a trade union member to work overtime when every penny received in overtime is absorbed in income tax? There are income tax collectors whose job is to collect as much money as they can. Gradually, the commercial life of the country is being strangled. When we go into the EEC on 1st January next, we will have to complete with other countries. To put us in a position to do that, production must be increased and made efficient. There must be an incentive. What incentive is there if everything a worker earns is collected by the Revenue Commissioners?

We have a glorious opportunity here. We have a great deal to offer that other countries in Europe have not got. The taxation system that has developed here has practically destroyed enterprise. I understand that the Government will hang on to office at all costs, fearful, perhaps, of what the Minister describes as the socialistic menace that is on us now. The Minister has 12 months in which to produce a good financial policy.

I do not think Deputy Esmonde has been preaching socialism for the past few minutes.

When I referred to persons having to pay 15 per cent in surtax I feared that I would be accused of preaching the other thing. I am speaking for every class of society and trying to convey to the Minister what would be good financial policy. If I have succeeded in getting a Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance to think on the lines I have indicated, I have not spoken in vain.

The Bill and the statement of the Minister should be considered in the context of the great demand in our community for increases in income and for some form of price stabilisation. I do not think this Finance Bill makes a really effective contribution towards what we on these benches want, namely, a more socially just taxation system. Such a taxation system as we advocate would enable one to say to the taxpayers in our society, predominantly wage and salary earners, that our taxation system affords real opportunities of increasing their real incomes and at the same time assists in the stabilisation of prices. The Bill gives no indication of having been drafted according to that concept.

One has to consider this Bill in the context of the other forms of taxation in operation, particularly the central government taxation system, the taxation on commodities, such as the VAT, the question of social insurance contributions and the rating system. It is impossible to consider the Finance Bill without referring automatically to these areas of Government taxation. However, I will confine my comments to what is proposed in the Bill.

With regard to this Bill, one could ask to what extent does it give a balance of advantage to different income groups? To what extent can we be reasonably certain that a balance of advantage is transferred to the lower income group? I do not think the Bill contains any serious evidence that this concept underlines the Government's approach to taxation.

Naturally the Minister will state that because of this Bill some 50,000 persons have been removed from the taxation net and that, hey presto, we have a more egalitarian system of taxation, that a more redistributive system of taxation has been introduced. This is a rather superficial interpretation of the purpose of a Finance Bill, namely, to introduce fundamental reforms in our community which would be widely distributive and more egalitarian.

I would stress that in no way does the Bill meet the essential need for the substantial transfer which is needed from the better-off sections of the community to the poorer sections. The Bill does not meet that fundamental criterion of political administration. The concessions contained in the Bill are quite marginal. This is the only summing-up that one can do of the Bill. I would suggest to the Minister that if his Department undertook an in-depth analysis of the evolution of our taxation system during the past five or ten years they could come up with ample evidence that there is a transfer to the relatively better-off sections of the community. I challenge the Minister to face up to that assertion.

If the Minister consults the staff of the ESRI, or the Revenue Commissioners, or if he considers the studies which may be available to him, he could discover that the real incidence of taxation on different income groups is much different from what we imagine it to be. He could also discover that the alleged benefits accruing to different sections of the community from public spending are different from what we imagine them to be.

I suggest that there is evidence that the impact of total taxation on the lower-paid workers is highly regressive and that it is grossly unfair. A simple examination of the income tax system in the context of the overall burden of taxation will show this. For example, in 1971-72 income tax paid by wage and salary earners amounted to almost £100 million—a phenomenal growth of payment by wage and salary earners. The extraordinary thing about that figure is that it is £25 million more than it was in the previous year. In other words, it represents a growth of one-third from wage and salary earners in a period of 12 to 15 months.

I agree. A lot of that increase was due to last year's Finance Bill to which some Deputies objected most strenuously—I cannot recall Deputy Desmond's attitude on the matter. Its effect was to get tax from people who either had not been paying tax before or were so delaying it that the value of the tax to the Exchequer was reduced. That is the main reason for the substantial increase—it is not the only one.

The total earnings of wage and salary earners are about £930 million per year. Out of that amount in 1971-72 the aggregate payment of income tax is £100 million— a jump of £25 million, or one-third more than in the previous year. I do not agree with everything Deputy O'Donovan says but on this matter he has a valid point when he speaks about the massive imbalance that is developing in our taxation structure. This is highlighted in this Bill in relation to income tax and its effect on the one million labour force in this country.

One might consider the simple statistics of farmer's incomes—this is conventionally estimated in our income account at £210 million a year. There is no income tax payable on this amount. What contribution is made out of that £210 million towards the central taxation income? This is where there is a tremendous imbalance. The incomes of the farmers have increased substantially in the past five years, and this is to be welcomed. This increase has been particularly based on growth of prices.

I suggest to the Minister that now there is a situation where the incidence of taxation on wage and salary earners is getting more and more regressive. At the same time the farmers' incomes are increasing with no attempt by the Government to come to grips with the serious income problem that is developing. I stress we are speaking about a substantial minority of wealthy farmers who do not pay income tax but who should be included in the income tax net.

It would be unpopular for any Minister for Finance to come to grips with that social problem but I consider it scandalous and disgraceful that many wealthy farmers on a certified and verified cash income do not pay income tax. This is at a time when wage and salary earners who earn £1,200 per annum must pay income tax.

There is that problem, and the other very serious problem facing the Minister which I do not think is effectively dealt with in this Finance Bill. It is widely believed, and I think there is reasonable evidence of it in our community, that some categories of professional groups and business people in our community gain from substantial tax evasion. I do not think the Minister would deny it. I see some of the loopholes, a few of the valuable loopholes particularly in relation to the setting up of the dummy company and the second company covered later on in his statement, and I am glad the Minister has closed off that loophole because certain people made very substantial five-figure fortunes in this community over the past three years because of failure to close that gap. It is now closed to some extent, but it is still true to say that there is a widespread belief in our community that some professional categories are, taxation-wise, getting away with murder, to put it quite bluntly, and that there are still substantial opportunities open to them for tax avoidance, exemption and evasion, if they want to be dishonest enough to go in for tax evasion as such.

To sum up on this aspect of the Bill, there are serious defects and serious omissions which have been evident in successive Finance Bills and are evident in this Bill. These are four omissions of which I would be very critical. There is the failure to bring certain wealthy categories of farmers— and I stress the qualification—under the income tax code on the basis of their actual incomes. This is a serious omission from the Bill. Secondly, the Minister must give serious consideration, not so much on the basis of the revenue he will receive because it will not be that large—I suggest not more at most than about £700,000 or £800,000 a year—to bringing in a section relating to capital gains tax to prevent the accumulation of large private fortunes at the expense of the general good of the community. I have no objection to anybody accumulating a large private fortune, provided he does not do it at the expense of the taxpayer and of our social structure. If he can do it through entrepreneurial ability, through legitimate business undertaking, the best of luck to him, but the Minister should not permit a situation where the absence of a capital gains tax now almost acts as an incentive to the accumulation of large private fortunes. This is an anomaly and it is a gap which must be closed quite definitely. Of course, we want to see the third gap closed to which I have referred, the simple tax evasion and avoidance and the deliberate and fraudulent evasion of liability by some sections of the community. These to me are the gaps in the Bill.

I wish to refer to only two other aspects, the first of which is in relation to the Minister's reference to the new code of tax dealing with superannuation schemes for employed persons and the application of the new code to occupational pension schemes generally. I am reasonably certain that there will be a change of Government, reasonably certain that there will be a new political administration. We urgently need an alternative Government, and I think that one of the immediate priorities of that Government will be to bring into operation, as exists in all progressive western European democracies, a national occupational pension scheme that will provide with the existing retirement pension an income amounting to two-thirds of earnings at retirement. There is nothing particularly novel about this proposition but it is a proposition which I would hope to see embodied in future Finance Bills. It would be my ambition, if I had anything to do with any alternative administration, to see a completely new national occupational pension scheme in operation. This would mean a completely new realignment of the social insurance system and of the existing occupational pension schemes and one would have a situation where one would develop the kind of approach that was developed in relation to the Crossman Pensions Act in Britain.

One way or another, I would submit to the Minister in reference to his statement that the existing tax law governing occupational pension schemes is being repealed as from 6th April, 1980, that, with due respect to him, an alternative administration, a new Government, will not be working on that basis. I do not want to confuse the occupational pension companies any more than they are confused at present and the Bill does materially affect the schemes they administer, but I think we can say legitimately on this side that given the opportunity, we will have a universally applied new national occupational pension scheme which would marry in the existing retirement pension schemes, providing massive transferability within them and on superficial examination of the pension schemes in existence in Sweden, Belgium and France—now that we are about to enter the EEC, we might as well adopt the more progressive things they have—I say to the Minister that the proposition related to 1980 is not likely to gain much favour at any level.

The final point I would make in relation to the Bill is the failure of the Government to include in it a separate and completely new section as I would wish to see brought in dealing with capital gains made from land sales transactions. I think this must be brought in if we are to have a socially just society and there is no point in having marginal taxation palliatives within a Finance Bill, giving slight relief to various sections of the community, if they are to be crucified when they try to buy a house or to come to grips with the enormous increase in the price of building land over recent years.

I would hope that before the introduction of the next Finance Bill there would be a change of Government but I would hope too that in the context of such a Bill a strenuous effort would be made to bring in the necessary statutory provisions whereby the present exemption on capital gains arising from land sale transactions, outside of the company context, would be closed off in no uncertain manner. A really progressive Finance Bill would ensure that the increments in land values, created by and large by the actions of the community through the rates system, through the building up of better water and sanitary services and by way of planning decisions, would accrue to the community and that no part of that land value created by the community would accrue to speculative land owners and speculators.

These, then, are some of the serious deficiencies that I see in relation to the Bill. The Bill gives no cause to anybody to rejoice. The question is simply one of marking time. On close examination of the Bill one finds, particularly in relation to income tax, that we are going backwards in terms of a more egalitarian and a more redistributive system of taxation.

I propose to devote my remarks chiefly not to what is in the Bill but to what I believe should be in it. The first item with which I am concerned is one that I do not think has been touched on during the debate so far, that is, the development of group farming in this country.

I cannot see how that can be discussed on the Finance Bill.

If the Ceann Comhairle will allow me a moment, I shall demonstrate clearly the relevance of what I have to say.

I presume that the Deputy is proposing tax incentives for group farming.

I am proposing the removal of a tax disincentive to group farmers and in this context I refer to an OECD survey that was published in Paris in 1971 on group farming. This country was not covered in the survey. It was stated in this publication that in other cases, particularly in Belgium and Germany but also in the northeast of the Netherlands, there was undoubted interest in group farming and that a number of groups had been formed. This, according to the report, was not occurring openly nor was the movement spreading and was due largely to taxation difficulties. It stated that there was no specific legislation for farming groups which, therefore, were treated for taxation purposes as industrial or commercial undertakings and which lose consequently the tax concessions available to individual farmers.

It is my contention that that situation obtains here also and that farmers forming themselves into a group in order to pool their activities and, possibly, their land so that they might have a more viable unit while still retaining the same number of people on the land in full employment, are at a disadvantage in doing this because of the present tax situation. As I understand it, the position at the moment is that a farmer acting alone as a farmer is exempt from income tax so far as his profits from farming are concerned. However, if he were to join with his neighbours and form a group in the form of a co-operative, his income would then be derived in one of two ways: he could become an employee of the new co-operative but as an employee he would be taxable because at present employees of any co-operative are subject to income tax. The alternative might be that he could take his income in the form of a dividend declared by the co-operative but in that case also he would be brought within the tax net because dividends declared by co-operatives are subject to income tax. Therefore, the formation of an agricultural co-operative would mean that a farmer would lose the tax exemptions that he enjoys as an individual farmer. A similar position would obtain if a company were formed in that a farmer, if he were to become an employee of that company, would be subject to income tax even though his income was being derived from agriculture. However, if such a company were to declare a dividend it is possible, I think, that the dividend would come within the scope of the present exemption for income derived from agriculture but, as I understand it, the added disadvantage in such case would be that the company would be liable not only for income tax but also for corporation profits tax. Therefore, a company engaged in farming in this way would run the risk of a higher level of taxation than would apply to the members acting as individual farmers.

I am not an expert on these matters and it is possible that I have been inaccurate on some aspects of it. However, I am aware that the IAOS are very concerned about this particular problem and they have studies it in much greater detail than I have done. They have made representations to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and to the Department of Finance because they believe that the present tax situation is discouraging the development of group farming and we all know that such development should be encouraged. The IAOS are anxious that the small farmer should be in a position to survive but they realise that in order to be able to compete he must be able to pool his resources to some degree. The various degrees are a matter for argument. Different cases would require different degrees of co-operation but in any event it is essential that the State, if it does not give an incentive to the development of group farming, should not impose a disincentive on such development which is important for the development of agriculture as a whole.

Perhaps the way might be open to find some way out of this. Perhaps if groups farms were formed into co-operatives—this would mean a reduction in the minimum membership of seven of a co-operative—and if the Department were satisfied that the group was a bona fide group farm, it should then be possible for the Minister to make a ruling that dividends or, alternatively, income paid to the participants in the form of wages, would not be taxable and would retain the exemptions which are available at present to income derived from farming by persons acting alone.

A number of Deputies, including Deputy Desmond and Deputy O'Donovan, referred to the position of income tax and farmers, and the fact that farmers do not pay income tax. The farmers are as anxious as anybody else to share in the expenses of the State and to contribute to the social reforms which are desirable. I do not think they want to find themselves getting away with something which other people cannot get away with, but it is wrong to take one tax in isolation and say: "Farmers are not paying income tax and, therefore, they are getting away with something which others are not getting away with." Farmers pay rates and death duties. The whole position must be looked at to find out whether the farmer is getting away with something. It will be found that few farmers are getting away with what Deputy Desmond thinks they are getting away with. The burden of rates on agricultural land has been rising very fast. It has been rising quicker than the earning capacity of such land. Rates are levied regardless of income of farmers. Even if a farmer suffers a loss he must pay rates. That is not the case with somebody who is——

——paying income tax, but it is the case with everybody who is paying rates.

Yes, but the position is that land is something akin to the tools of production. A man does not pay rates on a machine. He does not pay rates on goodwill. A shopkeeper might have goodwill. They are akin to land. They are the tangible and intangible assets out of which a person is able to make an income. A shopkeeper might have goodwill or a man might own a machine, but rates are not necessarily paid on those. The land is the source of a farmer's income and this land is entirely rated. The same goes for death duties. The value of the land assessed for death duty purposes has risen far faster than the level of the returns in terms of actual income from that land.

The reason for this are various. People from outside farming have been bidding-up land values, because they want solid investments and they think the land is the most solid investment of all. This has bid-up the value of land which means that when that land comes to be valued for death duties the amount of death duties to be paid is out of proportion to the actual earning capacity of the farmer who inherits the land and who has to pay the death duties out of the income derived from that land. Death duties are borne on land regardless of income. A man still has to pay death duties on land even if he is not earning any money from that land.

This brings me to the general question of death duties. I am not among those who believe that death duties should be abolished. Wealth is something which should be taxed. I do not wish to see, even though it might mean an inflow of capital, the development of ostentatious fortunes in this country. The glaring inequalities which might arise in this country if we were to institute some form of death duty haven here, in terms of high income people coming to live here in order to avail of generous death duty exemptions, would not be desirable.

I am rather sceptical about the tax concession for artists. We have had some very wealthy people coming to this country. Some artists who are well established and who do not need a tax concession have come. They do not need concessions to encourage them to start on the production of works of art. They have come here in order that their substantial incomes may not be liable to tax. This is not socially desirable. It may mean that more books about Ireland may be written or more paintings executed about Ireland, although that is arguable. James Joyce wrote his best work about Ireland while he was in Paris. If we are attracting artists in here, they will not write about Ireland but will produce material of no interest or value to Ireland; they will write about the countries from which they come. The present Minister for Finance was not responsible for this particular tax concession. A predecessor of his, in his enthusiasm for matters artistic, found it desirable to attract established artists to this country and not struggling men who are trying to get going. The people attracted did not need tax concession at all.

The position in regard to death duties is that speculation in agricultural land has bid-up the price to an extensive degree. When death duties come to be borne, they are out of proportion to the actual earning capacity of the land, because the value of the land is out of proportion to its earning capacity. The value has been bid-up because of speculation.

The Minister has claimed that we have an artificial valuation for agricultural land, which is seen as a concession which the Minister thinks gets over this problem. I do not think it does. The Minister will, no doubt, correct me if I am wrong in saying that the position is that if 25 times the poor law valuation is below a certain figure and if the personal estate is less than £1,000, then the artificial valuation comes into effect, and a lower rate of death duty is paid. I think that is the correct statement. That is roughly the position. So far as I know, where that really effectively falls down is the provision in regard to the personal estate being less than £1,000.

I believe the figure is £2,000.

It will be found that the value of many farms tots up to a figure in excess of £2,000. I thought the figure was £1,000. With increasing mechanisation and the increasing value of machinery, a farm with that sort of machinery will possibly, when it is all added up and all the personal assets, such as a car and furniture in the house are included, if the farmer is thrifty and has not gone heavily into debt, and there is no overdraft to be subtracted, be valued in excess of £2,000. It is very easy for a small farmer to have a personal estate in excess of £2,000 in which case the artificial valuation does not operate and men whose income—which is what death duties must be paid on— from farming is comparatively low, find they have to pay heavy death duties. This is undesirable and has led in many cases to the breaking up of holdings through little bits of them having to be sold in order to pay death duties. This fragmentation is not beneficial to agriculture and hits people at, perhaps, the most crucial stage in the development of a farm enterprise, when one person is handing over to another and the other person is trying to find his feet and in the normal way would be expected to be running losses. On top of this is added the burden of death duties which in many cases have caused considerable hardship.

I realise there are certain difficulties in finding a way out of this problem because if you give a global concession to all agricultural land in respect of death duties you further increase the attraction of agricultural land for speculators. They will say: "If I have my capital in shares I shall have to pay death duties but if I put it into agricultural land, I shall not." People who are not bona fide farmers and are wealthy in their own right will come into the land market to a greater extent for agricultural land outbidding small farmers trying to buy land. That is not a desirable development.

I sympathise to some extent with the Minister in this problem but we must try to find a way of helping a person who has been in farming all his life and whose major occupation it has been when he is handing over to some close relative on death and this relative also intends to engage in farming as his major occupation. In that situation it is unfair that the very heavy rate of death duties should apply. If the Minister looks at it, he will find it does apply. We must help a man in that situation without giving such a global concession that it will attract into farming people whose entry will further bid-up the inflated value of land thereby making farming more difficult for smallholders trying to expand their holdings.

I have no ready-made solution for this dilemma but it could possibly be approached through this five-year period. If that period of five years could be reduced in regard to the transfer of agricultural land by somebody engaged in farming for, say, 20 years prior to the transfer, and if he were to transfer his land, say, two years before his death, he could avail of that exemption rather than be bound by the present five-year period. The present five-year period is not realistic. People do not look that far ahead and do not say: "I expect to live five years and I shall transfer my land now and, therefore, I shall avoid death duties." If a two-year period were accepted in the case of agricultural land transferred by a person engaged in farming for over two years to another person who will be engaged primarily in farming, that would be one way of meeting the situation. Perhaps in this situation we could find a way to abolish death duties altogether or alternatively the conditions under which the artificial valuation is applied could be made more generous.

I know there will be difficulties and people will possibly avail of unintended loopholes in any concessions made but the Minister should not be too upset by the few who may manage to do this. The fact is that we have a serious social problem in that a fairly substantial number find that the burden of death duties is such that it is breaking up farms and causing untold hardship to farm families. Many people in rural Ireland are living in dread of death duties. Meetings held to protest about them have attracted not only big farmers but also small farmers who are just as concerned about this problem. The Minister should examine this matter closely and try to find a way out of the problem.

My final point refers to a proposal put forward by my party in 1965 when they advocated a tax concession for companies which encouraged the development of co-partnership in their enterprises, in other words, companies which brought about the situation where the employees had shares in the company and a say in its management thus creating greater involvement of those employed and greater commitment to the enterprise by those working in it. It would give the employees a sense of some control over their own work environment, which is a desirable thing. My party suggested as a means to this end tax concessions for companies making such provision. I should like to remind the Minister of this suggestion and I hope he will consider it favourably. I also hope that, as Deputy Desmond said, by the time the next Finance Bill comes there will be another Government committed to this proposal in a way in which the present Government are not and that it will be able, in its first budget, to bring in such proposals so as to encourage worker partnership in industry.

I think the House is aware—but it may be no harm to put it on record— of the fact that I regret that I was unable to be present to introduce the Second Stage of this Bill and that I missed portion of the debate. As Deputies know, I think, the reason is that I was on my way back from a meeting of Ministers for Finance in the EEC and the applicant countries in connection with recent developments in relation to sterling and I was unable to get here earlier.

The debate on this Stage of the Finance Bill this year is, I think, quite uncharacteristic of the kind of debate we have had in the past. It is uncharacteristic in many ways but I suppose chiefly in its relevant brevity.

Is the Minister complaining?

I am not complaining at all about this. I am all for brevity when it can be achieved. It is, I think, of some significance because this Bill, substantially, is implementing various provisions of the budget. It is doing certain other things which have been outlined in the introduction to this Stage but substantially that is what it is doing. The fact, as I say, the debate on this Stage of the Bill, as compared with the similar Stage in previous years is relatively shorter is, I think, perhaps the best tribute that could be paid by the Opposition parties to the effectiveness of the budget which we are implementing in this Bill. There have been certain points raised which I would like to deal with, some matters of principle and some matters of detail, and some matters of detail which I will not deal with because I think they are more appropriate to the next Stage of the debate.

The first matter I want to deal with is on the question of income tax and the allegations that have been made that in this country it is regressive and becoming more regressive. The statement is simply not true. I suggested, when Deputy O'Donovan was making this point, that the correct way to compare, if one wanted to compare, is to try to take post-tax income and having had regard to the fall in the value of money, then see what is the position of the wage earner on foot of that. On this basis the only figures immediately available to me are those which I am about to mention and they cover the difference between 1960 and 1970. I have not got, offhand, the figures that will emerge from the implementation of the provisions in this Bill but I am quite certain they will, in fact, improve the position.

To give it shortly and without going into details I will just give the summary that is of importance but if anybody is concerned about how the figures are arrived at I can furnish that information too. The summary works out in this way. If you take somebody whose annual gross income in 1960 was £500 he paid income tax of £50, leaving him with a post-tax income of £450. That was in 1960. In 1970 the average remuneration per non-agricultural employee had increased by 141 per cent which would mean that the comparable figure for 1970 was £1,205 per annum. That was subject to income tax of £229, leaving a post-tax income of £976.

The equivalent of the 1960 post-tax income at 1970 prices was £716 so that in real terms, after payment of income tax and adjusting for the increase in the cost of living, one arrives at the position where the equivalent figure, post-tax in 1970, was £976 as against £716 in 1960. On a similar basis——

Did the Minister say £760?

No, £716. On a similar basis for somebody who was on an income of £1,000 in 1960 the comparable figures work out at £1,304 as against £1,829 so that in both of those cases one finds that, after making allowance for the charge to tax, and making allowance for changes in the cost of living, those people had a higher after-tax income in real terms in 1970 than they had in 1960. It is important to realise that this is so.

Has the Minister got the value of the £ in 1960 and in 1970?

No, the figures I have given are the equivalent of 1960 post-tax income at 1970 prices.

Would it not be exactly the same thing?

Not exactly the same thing but it takes account of the increase in the cost of living over the same year period. The point I am making is that I think it should be known that that is the position, but that being the position does not mean that there is no case for increasing personal and other allowances under the income tax code. Indeed, that is demonstrated by the fact that this Bill provides for such increases in allowances, but we ought to be clear on what is happening. What is really happening is that people's standard of living has increased and their expectations have increased and quite legitimately so in my view. People who ten years ago had quite different and lower expectations today have higher expectations and therefore find that the money available to them on the things they want to spend it on is stretched to its limit as it was in 1960 for them, as it was in 1950 and I suppose as it will be in 1980. We should realise what is happening. People's standard of living is increasing and their expectations are increasing, as I say, quite legitimately. Let us not assume because they find it difficult this is because they are worse off. They are better off but they want more and they are entitled to more.

Is the Minister saying if a single person who was earning £12 a week in 1960 and was paying tax on the difference between that and £7, say—that is roughly on £5—is now earning £20 a week, which would be slightly less than the Minister's figure, and is paying tax on £13 that he is, in fact, better off?

I am sorry, but I do not know where the Deputy got the figures of £5 and £13.

The difference between £7 and £12 is £5 taxable income and the difference between £7 and £20 is £13 taxable income. There is no change in the amount of tax free allowance. That is what we are arguing about.

There has been.

A few shillings.

The actual figures are as I have given them. In 1960 on an annual gross income of £500 the amount of tax payable in 1960 was £50 and in 1970 on £1,205, which is comparable, the tax is £229. Then I have given the adjusted net of tax figures arising from that. I also want to say in regard to income tax— Deputy Desmond touched on this and perhaps some other Deputies did also —that it is well known that there are people who are legally subject to income tax who are not paying the amount for which they are legally liable. This is notorious. It is bound to happen under any system where the tax is related to one's income and, in the first instance, one is depending on a true return of income from the taxpayer. I said, in the first instance because, of course, we are not so naïve as to depend solely on the tax-payer's assessment of his income, as Deputies are well aware.

The point I want to make is that there have been a number of efforts in different areas in recent years to close these gaps and get after the people concerned with a considerable degree of success. I am not saying with 100 per cent success because I doubt if that can ever be attained, but there has been a considerable degree of success in this regard, as I said in an interjection earlier, in certain aspects of the law. For instance, what we provided last year in the Finance Bill in regard to lumpers and in regard to increasing interest rates on tax in arrears, has been quite successful in increasing substantially the amount of income tax collected, as was pointed out by Deputy Desmond. The very substantial increase in income tax as between one year and another is largely due—not entirely, of course—to those two factors.

It is due mainly to the fact that a proportion of every wage increase given goes back to the State.

Even allowing for that, the results from these two provisions have been very substantial and, I may say so far as I am concerned, very satisfactory. Deputies may recall that I defended these provisions with considerable vigour here last year when they were subjected to considerable attack. I think I am entitled to draw the attention of the House to the fact that they have paid off.

We knew they would pay off, anyway.

Other things were done in recent years which are not a matter of law but rather a matter of administration. These also are having the effect of—let me put it this way— making life more difficult for certain kinds of people who have been evading their liability for tax. Of course we get a lot of complaints about this both on the practical level and on the theoretical level. Earlier this evening Deputy Esmonde complained on the theoretical level and said we were taking away the incentive to work. This is always a problem with any form of income tax. One runs this risk. It is reasonable to say that one ought, as far as one can in practical terms, try to ensure that those who are legally liable to tax are made to pay in accordance with the law.

Deputy Desmond talked about the question of imposing a form of capital gains tax on the profits from land sales. He is aware, I presume, of the fact that there is a special tax on the profits of land sales.

Only by those in corporate existence, not everybody.

Putting it in very rough terms, everybody who does it more than once.

I am putting this in very rough terms: everybody who indulges in land sales more than once becomes liable to it.

Technically. If they are caught.

The point I should like to put to Deputy Desmond, through the Chair, is this. I do not think this is the right approach to this problem at all because whatever you do, whether by way of income tax or by way of increment value levied by the local authority or the State, the effect is ultimately to increase the price of land and therefore increase the price of houses. The only effective solution, in my view, is one which ensures that the price available to the person selling the land is reduced in proportion to the contribution of the community; not a special levy or tax on the land because that does not achieve the objective but rather that the price is reduced to give what I would regard as the true market value.

Deputies will be aware that this presents considerable legal and constitutional difficulties. We have been trying to tackle this problem for quite some time in various ways. It was because of these very complex difficulties that the Government set up the committee under a member of the judiciary to make recommendations in this regard. The legal and constitutional difficulties involved prevented us from doing what in my view is the only thing to tackle the problem.

Broadly speaking, would the Minister favour a constitutional amendment?

If this were necessary, yes, although I would suggest to the Deputy that if that situation developed there would probably be enormous difficulty in drafting a constitutional amendment which would do what the Deputy and I have in mind and nothing else.

Would the Minister envisage this, and would it have the effect of reducing the price of land sites? Surely no matter what happens the person who is selling the site will attempt to get back from somebody whatever he has to pay even if a value is put on whatever public work is done?

What the Deputy is saying is certainly true in the event of a sale from one private person to another private person. I could envisage a system in which there would be compulsory acquisition of land by local authorities as, indeed, there is at the moment, and as is being done in Dublin city.

Of course there is and in more than Dublin city.

I could envisage the creation of a land bank from which land would be made available to private builders by the local authorities.

During the last election campaign Fianna Fáil went round the country saying that because we had included that in our policy we wanted to confiscate land. I am glad the Minister has nailed his colours to that mast.

I am not talking about proposals during an election, I am talking about what we are doing and have been doing for some years. I am talking about the acquisition of land by local authorities and the giving out of it in small parcels to builders. We are doing this. We are not talking about it.

Building land.

The problem I have been referring to is a constitutional one. In answer to the question I was asked I am saying that I could envisage a system in which that method of operation would continue but in which the local authorities, in the price they were paying for the land, would be entitled to arrive at a figure which, in my view, would be the true market value of the land, that is, taking the figure for the sale between one private party and another and deducting from it the increase in the value of the land which can be attributed to a contribution either by the State or the local authority, by the community.

If one could do this legally one would get land which would be available for housing at a cheaper price. In some cases it would be substantially cheaper than it is today. In my view that is the only way in which one can successfully tackle this problem of land values and the effect on housing. No system of tax and no imposition of any kind will help. It will only make the position worse.

Deputy FitzGerald, I understand, referred to the proposed right of appeal to the appeal commissioners provided in section 33 of the Bill in respect of non-quoted securities and suggested that there should also be a right of appeal in respect of other property such as the market value of land and chattels which are referred to in section 32 of the Bill, the section which deals with discretionary trusts. The fact is that since the estate duty code came into force in 1894 there has been such a right of appeal to the courts. The appeal lies to the Circuit Court if the value of the property is under £50,000 and if it exceeds £50,000 the appeal is to the High Court. If, however, the question in dispute is the buying of land or house property, then there is a right to appeal since 1909 to the property arbitrator and there is a subsequent right of appeal from him to the court.

Section 31 of the Bill enlarges the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court to enable it to hear such appeals. The point about this provision is that it introduces a system of appeal which does not compel the taxpayer to go to the court if he wants to appeal. The case was made to me that in many instances people were put in the position that they either had to accept the Revenue Commissioners' decision or appeal to the courts and that in some cases the cost, the delay and the risk prevented them from going to the court and that in practice, therefore, the decision of the Revenue Commissioners was unilateral and binding. It was for that reason that I decided to introduce this right to appeal to the appeal commissioners in the case of non-quoted shares.

With regard to the point raised by Deputy Bruton, the position is that farmers are exempt from income tax. If, instead of continuing their farming in the traditional way, they operate by way of a co-operative, then their farming profits are exempt from tax in the hands of the co-operative, and if the farming profits are distributed by way of dividend to members they are also exempt from tax.

Are they exempt as dividends or as earnings?

If the people involved are employees, clearly they come under PAYE and I do not think there is any justification for changing that system.

A dividend declared by an agricultural co-operative is not liable to tax?

That is correct to the extent that, in the case Deputy Bruton mentioned, which was the specific one of farmers who get together on a co-operative basis, if they have a joint profit and then distribute that profit in dividends it is not liable to tax whether as a profit in the hands of the co-operative or as a distribution of dividends to members.

Deputy Bruton referred to representations made by the IAOS. I think they go further and cover certain other aspects than the straightforward one I mentioned. The Deputy mentioned exempting people from tax on their incomes if they are employed by co-operatives. I can see many objections to that, especially if the object of the co-operative can be achieved without their being treated in that way. There were other cases mentioned by the IAOS which go further than that.

I understand Deputy FitzGerald wondered whether there is a need to define the words "credit union" in section 43. I have been specifically advised that this is not necessary because a credit union which is registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts, as stated in the Bill, could only refer to a credit union to which the Credit Union Act, 1966 applies.

Before he leaves agriculture, surely the Minister will agree that although the 1,000-acre farmer is exempt from income tax a market gardener who has a half acre is subject to it. Is there not something inequitable in that?

There is something inequitable in the whole thing.

Sin cheist eile.

An cheist chéanna?

One can get a wrong picture when discussing a half acre. There can be very substantial profits from a half acre.

Why exempt a person at one end of agriculture and subject the poor man with the half acre to income tax?

There is a long tradition behind the situation we have in regard to the taxation of farmers.

Would the Minister not treat the market gardener in the same way as the big farmer?

In market gardening the other aspect is more fundamental. I was interested to hear the views expressed from the Labour benches, with a certain suggestion of "Hear, hear" from Deputy FitzGerald, and I thought it would be interesting to know whether this becomes a plank in the prospective coalition policy.

Talk about borrowing courage.

Let us wait for the borrowing of courage. We will watch with great interest. I am sure Deputy FitzGerald will go along with it anyway.

Tell us about tradition again.

Coming to the point of the estate duty——

A few industrial workers in the Minister's area will have a few things to say to him.

"Income is income."

Say Fianna Fáil.

There were suggestions about the increasing burden of death duties especially on farmers and there were complaints about the inadequacy of reliefs being provided. I have given some of the facts and I will give them again although I do not think it makes much difference because we will still hear the same complaints. The facts are that this estate duty is assessed in relation to relatively few cases. There are about 2,500 cases annually and of these only about 4 per cent involve farmers.

Listening to some of the arguments made inside and outside the House one would imagine that there were farmers all over the country in dire trouble because of death duty. That simply is not true. The position is that about 4 per cent of the cases involve farmers and this is due largely to the system of the artificial valuation of agricultural land to which Deputy Bruton made reference. I will concede that the percentage I have mentioned may well increase as a result of the increasing value of farming land and we may have different statistics on it later, but let us start from the low base of 4 per cent and deal with the situation as we know it. The position in relation to farmers' liability is about as generous as we can manage, again for traditional reasons.

Would the Minister not agree that very few farmers have cash to meet what they have to meet?

I would suggest that, if that is true, then it is true of almost every case that is liable to duty. Take the case of a small shopkeeper: all the arguments advanced by Deputy Bruton——

The Minister was talking about farmers.

But you must compare them. All the arguments made by Deputy Bruton as to why the farmers ought to have further relief can equally be applied to the small shopkeeper. The point made by Deputy Cooney can equally apply: where does he get the cash? The fact is most people who are worried about this problem and want to make provision for its solution take out an insurance policy.

The Minister will find. I think, that in that particular case the amount of dutiable property per £ of income would be much higher in the case of a farmer than it would be in the case of most other people.

That is because they choose to invest in something with a low return.

Farmers, farming organisations and Deputies who purport to speak for farmers would be very wise not to push this too far because they are drawing attention to a situation which is barely defensible.

Except by tradition.

Even by tradition.

I suggest they are not really helping the position they allege they want to help by proceeding to make points such as they have been making.

Just leave it to the Revenue Commissioners.

Apart from the special arrangements which have been made and which are quite generous from the point of view of relieving farmers up to a certain point from liability for death duties, there is an equally generous system of broadly based estate duty abatements in respect of widows and dependent children. This, of course, applies to farmers and others. The net effect of the present proposal in section 29 is to exempt from duty an estate of £17,750 where the widow is the only beneficiary, an estate of £25,500 in the case of a widow and two dependants, an estate of £30,200 in the case of a widow and three dependants, and an estate of £33,330 in the case of a widow and four dependants. I do not think it can be said these are not generous exemptions taking account of the situation of a widow and dependants.

Now you will often have cases in which people, who are not closely related or may not be related at all, inherit valuable property and I can see no reason why such people should not be liable to duty at a reasonable threshold. A case was made last year here, and with some force, in regard to the changes then being made in the abatements for widows and dependants that, while that was all right because of the increase in the value of property all round, there ought to be an increase in the threshold at which property became liable to duty. I thought there was substance in that argument. I listened to it with sympathy and this year we are proposing to raise the threshold from £5,000 to £7,500. This is before there is any liability to duty. Over and above that there will be abatements for widows and dependants, with the results I referred to earlier.

Deputy Donegan said the abatements were inadequate because they have not kept pace with the increase in the cost of living. The increase in the consumer price index since 1965, when abatements were first introduced, has been around 40 per cent: in contrast, the abatements have been increased by eight times in the case of a widow from £250 to £2,000 and by nearly seven times in the case of a dependent child from £150 to £1,000. We are in this field considerably ahead of the situation we were in before 1965.

Would the Minister agree there is no case at all for estate duty on property going to widows?

I could not accept that.

Would the Minister like to give the reason why there should be estate duty on estates going to widows when the purpose is to prevent the accumulation of properties in too few hands from one generation to another?

That may be the Deputy's view but it is not my view.

Would the Minister like to expound his view of estate duty?

I presume the Deputy is quoting from something introduced in the early stages of estate duty, but to make a statement like that today, without any attempt to justify it, rather surprises me.

Would the Minister like to indicate any other valid grounds for taxing capital in the first instance, particularly capital going to a widow?

If there is to be a tax on capital at all why should there be no tax on capital going to a widow irrespective of the value of the property?

The Minister is begging the question. I suggest one reason for a tax on capital is to prevent the accumulation of capital from one generation to the next. What is the Minister's reason? Tell us. Do not keep it a secret.

That would arise on another Stage.

There are several reasons, some of which I went into in a previous debate. Deputy FitzGerald will find the reasons stated there. I will not embark on a discussion of the theoretical basis for taxing capital. The fact is we have this form of tax. I think it is legitimate to say that it is an imperfect form of tax on capital. I would accept that and I would say that, as time goes on, there will almost certainly be changes. However, I am not concerned with that aspect in this Bill. I am concerned with the operation of the death duty code as it operates today and I suggest the reliefs provided in this Bill go a substantial distance towards meeting the problems of the increased value of property and the position of the widow with dependent children. I quoted the abatement figures earlier. This is the only realistic approach to the problem in relation to the operation of estate duty and property values today.

Different views have been expressed on the question as to whether estate duty should operate and, if operated at what rate: whatever their views, however, I think Deputies would accept that what we are doing here is certainly in the context mentioned the right way of approaching the problem, given that we are going to have estate duty and given the way property values are going. Therefore, I am quite happy with the provisions involved and with the reactions of Deputies as indicated in the debate. There were certain other points raised which, as I indicated earlier, may be because of being of some detail, more appropriate to a discussion on Committee Stage. But I would repeat that one of the unusual characteristics of this debate at this stage has been its relative brevity. I have already underlined the fact that this is the best tribute that can be paid to the Opposition benches——

To the complications of the Bill.

The incomprehensibility of the Bill.

——to the Budget provisions which are being substantially enacted in this Bill.

That it is so difficult to understand what it is about.

That never stopped the Deputy before. We did, of course, have a few of the ritualistic, Walter Mitty suggestions about a new Government being in these benches this time next year and as to what that new Government might do or might not do. I have no desire to discourage the attempts by the Opposition parties to get together and to put before the people an alternative programme to that presented by this Government.

What programme? By what Government?

The one for which the people vote.

The restoration of the Irish language and the unity of the country.

All Deputy Desmond has to do is to get together with people like Deputy Esmonde who was speaking here tonight and let us see the programme they will put before the people. However, as I say, I have no desire to kill these efforts; in fact, I should rather like to encourage them. Unfortunately the Deputies over there are killing the whole idea.

How does the Minister himself feel about Deputy Charlie Haughey?

I have no problems.

The Minister is like the Minister for Transport and Power, Deputy Lenihan, no problems.

If the Deputy would like to tell me about some problems that I have in that regard I would like to hear them, because I am not aware of them, but Deputy Corish knows— and I do not have to tell him—about some of the problems he has.

(Interruptions.)

Let us deal with the Bill.

We did, as I say, have the ritualistic, Walter Mitty references to another Government being here. I am not all that long in the House; I am here since 1961 and every year I have been here I have heard the same thing. It is becoming a little monotonous.

Since when did Deputy Haughey become the Walter Mitty of Fianna Fáil?

I would like to encourage these efforts. If the Deputies across are serious, would they ever get together and try to see that they do not come out with directly conflicting views as were expressed here tonight? Otherwise the thing will not get off the ground at all, and we would appreciate a bit of opposition.

You will get plenty of it.

Question put and agreed to.

Tuesday next? I am suggesting that we order it for Tuesday next and that the Whips get together.

The preparation of amendments for this may take a little time, although I appreciate that time is against us.

It is very difficult to amend a Finance Bill, as Deputy FitzGerald knows.

I would suggest that we order it for Tuesday next, and that will leave that much room for manoeuvre for the Whips.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 4th July, 1972.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28the June, 1972.
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