Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Nov 1972

Vol. 263 No. 11

County Management (Amendment) Bill, 1972: Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Molloy)

Tairgim: "Go léifear an Bille anois don Tarna hUair."

Sé cuspóir an Bhille ná fo-alt (7) d'alt 16 den Acht um Bainistí Chontae, 1940 a athghairm ionas go mbeidh ceapacháin mar ráta—bhailitheóir chontae déanta sa tslí chéanna agus a déantar ceapacháin eile sa tseirbhís áitiúil, sé sin de thoradh comórtais iomaíochta.

The purpose of this short Bill is to repeal sub-section (7) of section 16 of the County Management Act, 1940 so that the selection and appointment of county rate collectors will be made in the same way as other appointments in local authorities, on a merit or competitive basis.

At present appointments in local authorities, with the exception of county rate collector, are generally made either by the county manager in accordance with regulated procedures and methods of selection or on the recommendation of the Local Appointments Commissioners. The reasons for the exception which was made in the case of county rate collectors are not clear but it has been argued that county rate collectors are normally past school leaving age when they are appointed and that the office of county rate collector does not require the qualities that are best assessed by competitive examination or interview. It could also be said that the appointment of rate collectors is related to the council's control of financial and rating matters and that it is important that a local man be selected who will have a knowledge of and be sympathetic with local conditions and the financial circumstances of the ratepayers.

The appointment of county rate collectors has been a controversial issue down through the years. The question was raised in an Adjournment debate in the Dáil on 18th April last when I said that when the House gets an opportunity to discuss legislation dealing with the general question of the powers and functions of members of local authorities, the matter would fall to be discussed in that context. I had the matter further considered and in the light of views submitted by many people, including councillors, I came to the conclusion that it was time to change the system. The arguments against the system are well known—a system of appointment made by vote of elected members of local councils does not readily lend itself to the detailed procedures and controls which would ensure that selection is made on merit alone. As things now stand, there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures may be exerted on the elected members. The alleged abuses and malpractices which are reported in the newspapers from time to time reflect no credit on the system and I think that it is fair to say that the system has proved an embarrassment to councillors over the years.

In my opinion the ill effects of the present system of appointment far outweigh any advantages which may be present. The traditional arguments advanced in favour of the system are marginal and not really sustainable— this is proved conclusively by the fact that rate collector appointments in towns and cities are made in the normal way; they present no problem and the officers appointed are equally as efficient as their counterparts in the county councils.

The enactment of the Bill will leave the way open to revise the regulations which govern the making of appointments so as to ensure that all rate collector posts are filled on the basis of open competition following advertisement in the public press—with the exception of such posts as may be filled by the promotion of serving staff. I hope to have the regulations in operation as soon as the Bill is passed.

The view has been expressed that, in future, county rate collector appointments should be made through the agency of the Local Appointments Commissioners. This is a possibility, but I have reservations about filling posts at this level through a central agency. It is doubtful if the holding of competitions on a national basis would be warranted for posts at this level with all that a national competition involves—travelling to Dublin and so on. The general approach to this question has been that senior posts should be filled through the Local Appointments Commissioners and that as you go down the scale to the less senior posts local competitions are the best and most suitable and expeditious.

Although criticism of the present method of appointment of county rate collectors has continually been made over the years, the principal reason why this proposed change has not been made up to now is, in all likelihood, that it takes away a power from the elected members. However, I feel that this is not the kind of power which the average county councillor is seeking when he offers himself to the electorate and I am quite satisfied that most councillors will be glad to be divested of this particular function relating to individual staffing appointments.

It is, as I have said, my view that appointments of county rate collectors should be made strictly on the basis of merit and I feel that the time is now opportune to make the change and that it should be made as soon as possible. It was for this reason that I had the matter covered in a separate Bill which I now commend to the House and ask that it be dealt with as quickly as possible.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I move:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute:

Dáil Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill on the grounds that the appointment of rate collector should be made a function of the Local Appointments Commission under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926 instead of making it merely an executive function under the County Managements Acts.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the Minister for Local Government in the opening paragraphs of his speech in English that appointments of rate collectors should be made on merit. The Minister reaffirms that in the concluding paragraph of his speech where he says that rate collectors should be appointed strictly on the basis of merit and feels that the time is opportune to change the law in regard to the appointment so as to implement these sentiments.

I entirely agree with those sentiments and it is for that reason I have put down this reasoned amendment to the Second Reading to invite the House to reject the Bill as at present drafted and to invite the Minister to redraft it so that these appointments will be made pursuant to the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926. I hope before I conclude to satisfy the House that there is no obstacle whatever in the way of handing over these appointments to the Local Appointments Commission and at the same time ensuring that a local man will be appointed, thus preserving local knowledge and that sort of thing.

I believe that if the Bill goes through as it is and if the appointment is merely declared to be an executive function, what up to now has been a political appointment carried out in public and has been seen to be a political appointment will still be a political appointment in many cases—and I stress "in many cases"—but will not have the virtue of having been carried out before the public and the press. It will be a political appointment made over the telephone by the Minister or some of the Minister's henchmen. Those may be strong words but that is exactly how I feel about the Bill as drafted.

Mr. Molloy

That is an extraordinary allegation and a poor reflection by the Deputy on the quality and integrity of the county managers.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I shall deal with that in a few minutes. When the Minister first announced that he intended to change the system, he did not say so in so many words, but he certainly gave the impression and was taken up by the press to mean, that it was his intention to hand over these appointments to the Local Appointments Commission.

Mr. Molloy

I said no such thing and never gave any such impression. The Deputy should base his arguments on fact.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister read out a prepared speech. I am speaking from notes and——

Mr. Molloy

Rather inaccurately.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan):——and I should be very glad if the Minister would do me the courtesy of ceasing to interrupt me, because I did not interrupt him when he was reading his speech. I say that when the Minister gave this news first about the change in the system he certainly gave the impression and was taken up by the press to mean——

Mr. Molloy

That is not so.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan):——that he intended to hand these appointments over to the Local Appointments Commission. However, he had second thoughts or perhaps the party at various levels had second thoughts and he decided that he would not go the whole way but would make it an executive function and still keep his hand in the pie. That is the reason why I have put down the amendment I have put down.

The history of the appointment of rate collectors is more or less as outlined by the Minister. When the County Management Act, 1940, was passed and when most appointments were handed over either to the Local Appointments Commission or to the county manager, the position of county rate collector was retained as a reserved function, and it has been operated on a political basis since then. The Fianna Fáil Party have been in control of the majority of the county councils for most of that time, although at the last local elections they lost control of the great majority of the county councils. However, as I say, these appointments were operated on a political basis, and the present Government party in particular operated their majority, when they had it, in a ruthless fashion.

I can bring the Minister back just 20 years to appointments which were made in County Cavan on the 9th February, 1952. At that time the Fianna Fáil Party had 13 members out of the 25 members on Cavan County Council, and on the 9th February, 1952, they appointed seven rate collectors, each and every one of them being a Fianna Fáil nominee, most of them by a majority of 13 to 12, but a couple of them on the casting vote of the chairman when one Fianna Fáil member on a couple of occasions declined to vote for personal reasons. When it came to the last rate collector on that occasion, the religious minority asked for one appointment out of the seven and a member of the Minister's party retorted: "No surrender. Get on with the appointment." That was an unfortunate remark to make in a Border county.

Subsequent to that, there was another appointment made and the man appointed on that occasion was the only applicant who failed to sit for the qualifying examination, simple though it was at the time. That has been, by and large, the method of filling these rate collectorships over the years. It is true, and I do not deny it, that the Fine Gael Party took its share of these appointments when it got them as long as the system prevailed, because otherwise it was a matter of handing over the entire rate collectors of this country to the Fianna Fáil Party.

When the powers that be in 1940 reserved this function to the elected representatives of county councils, it made a very significant decision. The Minister has said that these men were usually above school going age or had left school quite a few years when they were appointed and that there were other considerations why they should be appointed by the local authorities rather than by a competitive examination. I think it was the type of appointment that perhaps should not have been left in the political arena, because as well as collecting rates and performing other functions, these rate collectors were responsible for the compiling of the electors' lists; in other words they were doing valuable political work for the party to whom they thought they owed allegiance. These men were appointed—and let there be no doubt about it—as a monetary reward out of public funds for political services rendered or to be rendered in the future.

It is difficult to justify this system, but if it had a redeeming feature it was that this was done in public. It was recognised as political patronage. The vote on the question of who would be appointed was carried out on a political basis. There was no make-believe or sham about it. There was no "behind the door" operation about it. Everybody knew it was a political appointment That was the only redeeming feature it had, if that was a redeeming feature.

In recent years there has been a public demand for a change in the system. Other appointments are being made to public positions on a political basis. Nowhere is that more rife than in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I know that the Minister is not in charge of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I wish to make a passing reference to these appointments. Everybody knows that all the sub-postmasters in the country are appointed on a political basis. Auxiliary postmen are appointed in the same manner. These appointments are not made in public. A board is set up to appoint auxiliary postmen. It is well-known that the man who has obtained sixth, seventh or eighth place on the recommended list may get the appointment while the man who gets first, second, third or fourth may be passed over. The same thing happens in regard to the appointment of sub-postmasters. Their appointments are every bit as political as those of rate collectors. If the Minister feels indignant about that statement and contradicts it, his contradiction will not be taken too seriously by the people who know those who are appointed and how they were appointed.

Mr. Molloy

What about the Baltinglass post office? Is that what the Deputy is referring to?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I condemn that, just as I condemn everything else. The Minister concedes that it is a political appointment. If this is the only argument——

Mr. Molloy

That was some of the work of the Deputy's own party while in office.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan):——or reply which the Minister has, it is a poor one. I am asking why, if the Government are serious about taking the position of rate collectors out of the political arena, they do not take out also the appointment of sub-postmasters?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is another question. The Minister is not concerned with that.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It is a matter of Government and of general policy. I will not go into this in detail. There are certain grades in the Department of Social Welfare which are political appointments. This also applies to the Department of Labour. The Office of Public Works is reeking with political jobbery. Appointments at important levels are made there on that basis. I do not suggest that all county managers are subject to pressure. In fairness to them, many of them are men who carry out their jobs well and are not subject to political pressure from the Department of Local Government. I believe there are managers who were political appointees themselves and who answer the whip of the local Fianna Fáil boss in regard to the filling of local offices by filling them with every political Fianna Fáil hack that can be got. The Minister may deny this, but the people in general have their own views about it.

Boards have been set up in the past, and before the closing date for the receipt of applications the local people could say who would get the appointment. I have no faith in these boards. I ask the Minister for Local Government to be sincere and to hand these appointments over to the Local Appointments Commission which has worked well since it was set up in 1926.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy is contradicting himself slightly. The Local Appointments Commission also appoints county managers, whom the Deputy has been castigating.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Some of the county managers were reared in an atmosphere which led them to believe that unless they were in Fianna Fáil they could get nothing. They came up through the service in that belief. They were made to believe that. I heard a story about that a couple of years ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope it relates to rate collectors.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The story relates to appointments made by a county manager a long way from Cavan. He was appointing cottage tenants. He used to send out ballot papers to the local Fianna Fáil councillors in the area and then conduct a count of those ballot papers, and then appoint the man who got the majority.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy believes all that. He is naïve.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): That was the way he did it.

Mr. Desmond

He had a points system.

Dr. O'Donovan

What about my story of the referendum?

Mr. Desmond

He had a "pints" system.

Mr. Molloy

Deputy O'Donovan told us the referendum would not be carried. He said it would not be held.

Dr. O'Donovan

I stuffed it down your throats.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): One young man went to the county manager I was referring to and said: “We had better get out the ballot papers”.

Mr. Molloy

Could we have less history and get down to the Bill?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): This Bill is all about shady history. The young man said: “We had better get out the ballot papers” but the county secretary said: “What ballot papers?”. The county manager said that cottage tenants were to be appointed by sending out ballot papers to the local Fianna Fáil councillors and appointing their nominees. I believe that appointments should be made on merit alone. This is more important now than ever before. The Government take credit for free post-primary education. I give them credit for that. Having enabled young people to pursue post-primary education it is most frustrating for these young people to find that it is not what they know but who they know that gets them appointed.

I believe that the youth of the country will not stand for this sort of political jobbery any longer. That is why I invite the Minister to accept my suggestion, and give an undertaking to the House that on Committee Stage he will bring in an amendment to section 2 of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, adding to the definition of "offices" to which that Act applies the office of county rate collector. That is a simple amendment which he could make, which would make it obligatory on the county council, when appointing a rate collector, to refer the appointment to the Local Appointments Commission.

I should like to deal rather briefly with the authority of the Local Appointments Commission. The Local Appointments Commission operate under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926. Under this Act it is necessary for local authorities and county councils to refer to that commission for appointment vacancies which occur in certain offices. Those offices are defined in section 2 which reads:

(1) In this Act the expression "office to which this Act applies" means and includes—

(a) the chief executive officer under every local authority, and

(b) every office and every employment (not being an office or employment as a teacher) under a local authority the qualifications for which are wholly or in part professional or technical, and

(c) all such other offices and employments under a local authority as the Minister shall from time to time with the concurrence of the Commissioners declare to be offices to which this Act applies.

(2) Every question or dispute as to whether any particular office or employment is or is not an office to which this Act applies shall be decided by the Minister after consultation with the Commissioners and such decision shall be final and conclusive.

That section has been amended from time to time since 1926 and, broadly, it now includes county managers, town clerks and, secretaries to joint bodies. Many town clerks are in receipt of salaries which are much less than the salaries of rate collectors. Many town clerks are carrying out employment with much less responsibility than rate collectors, and handling much smaller sums of money than rate collectors.

Paragraph (b) of the section which I read out now covers professional officers such as engineers, architects, town planners, wholetime law agents, solicitors, quantity surveyors, valuers and chief executive officers. Included in paragraph (c) are such officers as accountants, accounts clerks, city treasurers, city librarians, county librarians, borough librarians, urban librarians, librarians with library committees, assistant directors and librarians, public relations officers, personnel officers, curator, Dublin Municipal Gallery, deputy city librarians, accountants and, senior administrative officers. I understand, too, that another very local office is filled by the Local Appointments Commission, that is, the office of county coroner and coroners who serve only portion of a county. I can see no objection in referring these appointments to the Local Appointments Commission. In fact, I see every virtue in it because it would remove these appointments once and for all from the political arena.

The Minister said it was important that local men should be appointed. With that I agree. I believe that for a rate collector local knowledge is a good thing to have. There is no difficulty about handing the appointment over to the Local Appointments Commission and still preserving the requirement of local knowledge. All the coroners are local men. Section 7 of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, enables the Local Appointments Commissioners to declare qualifications. It reads:

(1) Whenever a local authority or the Minister requests the Commissioners to recommend a person for appointment to an office to which this Act applies the Commissioners shall with the consent of the Minister prescribe the qualifications as to age, health, character, education, training, experience and (where in the opinion of the Commissioners the duties of the office so require) sex for such office.

(2) The Commissioners if they so think fit may at any time, with the consent of the Minister and after such consultation as may be possible or convenient with such associations or bodies as the Minister for Local Government and Public Health may consider to be representative of local authorities, prescribe generally the qualifications for all offices comprised in any particular description, class, or grade of offices to which this Act applies and may so prescribe generally any qualification which they could prescribe specially under sub-section (1) of this section in respect of any particular office comprised in such description, class or grade.

(3) Before recommending a person to a local authority for appointment to an office to which this Act applies the Commissioners shall satisfy themselves in such manner as they think proper that such person possesses the qualifications prescribed under this section for such office.

In my opinion there is nothing in that section to preclude them from prescribing a local resident and, if there is, it is a very simple matter to amend the section to enable a local residence qualification to be prescribed.

Obviously the Minister has decided to amend the legislation in regard to the appointment of rate collectors because there is a public demand for it. The public demand is that the appointments should be taken out of the political arena. The Minister said that in the past there was wholesale canvassing of county councillors. In the past it was necessary to canvass 25 county councillors on an average in most counties and sometimes to canvass far more. If the method is changed now, endless local and national pressure will be brought to bear on county managers whether they yield to it or not. They will be canvassed by TDs and by Ministers. The wishes of Ministers will be conveyed to them over the telephone and they will be left in an impossible position.

I do not think the Minister has made any case at all for refusing to accept my reasonable amendment, of which he must have had notice, to hand this appointment over to the Local Appointments Commission instead of merely declaring it an executive function. If the Minister gives such an assurance, he will be doing a good job of work in this area. He will be removing political influence, political jobbery, from this sphere of appointment. If he does not, in my opinion he will be seen to be engaging in nothing more or less than a bit of political gimmickry, a bit of political play-acting, by pretending to remove this important appointment from the sphere of politics when everybody will believe that political influence will still prevail and still control the appointment.

I think I have made the position quite clear. I am with the Minister 100 per cent in his decision to amend the law and I agree with him that most county councillors will be glad to be rid of the job because they do not want it.

Mr. Desmond

They will all be in mourning tonight for their loss of income.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I believe also that county managers will not welcome its being handed over to them and I think the ordinary and sensible solution of the matter is to treat it as a major post in a local authority, carrying in many cases more than £2,000 and hand over to the appointments commission the filling of the job.

The Minister has spoken about travelling to Dublin. There is no reason why everything should be done in Dublin. There is no reason at all why the Local Appointments Commission should not travel down the country, sit in some regional centres, have the interviews conducted there and the applicants assessed there. The argument made by the Minister against giving the appointment to the Local Appointments Commission simply does not hold water. The Minister says:

This is a possibility but I have reservations about filling posts at this level through a central agency; it is doubtful if the holding of competitions on a national basis would be warranted for posts at this level with all that a national competition involves—travelling to Dublin and so on.

I say, prescribe a residence qualification; do not hold the interviews in Dublin; hold them in regional areas. The Minister says:

The general approach to this question has been that senior posts should be filled through the Local Appointments Commissioners and that as you go down the scale to the less senior posts local competitions are the best and most suitable and expeditious.

I have given a list of people already appointed by the Local Appointments Commissioners, including coroners, town clerks of small urban areas and so on, and I see no reason at all why the Minister should not accept the suggestion contained in my amendment of handing the appointment over to the Local Appointments Commissioners. If he does so, he will be seen to be serious in what he says he has set out to do, to take politics out of this appointment, but if he does not, he will be seen to be merely pretending to take politics out of it but to keep the influence of the politicians in it.

Mr. Treacy

This is a very important piece of legislation, seeing that it proposes to take away one of the last effective functions of local authorities. The only effective role county councillors have been enabled to play in recent years was in respect of the appointment of rate collectors with which this Bill deals and the actual striking of the rate. All other functions were the executive functions of the county manager and in this instance we are taking away this function which county councillors enjoyed over a long number of years. Having regard to its importance, it is a matter of amazement to me to observe the Minister sitting alone in the Fianna Fáil benches. There is not one member of his party behind him on this occasion.

Mr. Molloy

The party have discussed this Bill and support it. I am quite capable of handling it here myself.

Mr. Treacy

Whether this is indicative of a lack of interest in the Bill or of contempt for the measure, I do not know.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The party got it taken from the Local Appointments Commissioners and left with the county manager.

Mr. Molloy

That is not true.

Mr. Treacy

This Bill is a reflection, and a very serious reflection, on all the rate collectors appointed under the old system. I am aware of the system of appointment and I am well aware that in the main these people secured these plum offices by reason of the political role they played in a given political party. A position such as this was regarded as one of the plums of local politics, but be that as it may, the vast majority of them have been honourable men who have carried out their work conscientiously and well.

Mr. Molloy

Hear, hear.

Mr. Treacy

There were some who fell by the wayside but the vast majority were men of integrity, of honour and of honesty who performed a very fine public service. They knew the local populace; they knew the time when he or she could meet the rate demand and they did not apply undue pressures. They were loth to serve civil bills. The method of office collection was tried in many counties, to my knowledge, and was not regarded as effective or efficient as the rate collector method. I would hope that when it comes to amending legislation of this kind, we would not by implication reflect on the character and integrity of the existing appointed rate collectors.

Moreover, the Bill is a reflection on members of local authorities because it is clear that this amendment in relation to the appointment of rate collectors is coming about now because of the evidence which the Minister has of the unsavoury practices which have been going on, the incidence of canvassing, of unreasonable pressures and the alleged abuses and malpractices which have been reported from time to time. Again, there is an element of truth in this and those of us who have served on local authorities cannot deny it. These unsavoury practices have raised their ugly heads on occasions. To say that all members of local authorities were so inclined would be a libel on these good men and women. Let me say in defence of my colleagues who are members of local authorities that these men serve their people conscientiously and well. They are men of character and integrity who would never resort to any sort of malpractice. They are people who set their faces steadfastly against becoming involved in any malpractice in the appointment of rate collectors. Therefore, let us ensure that the vast majority of dedicated public representatives are not besmirched in any way because of the misdemeanours of the few.

I do not know why the Minister brought this Bill before the House now, especially since it is contemplated to have an entire restructuring of local government. I do not know what was the urgency in this case. In order to be fair to the members of local authorities who have done their duty honourably, the Minister might have had the courtesy to consult local authorities before deciding to take from them this last remaining executive function of theirs. It was discourteous of the Minister to proceed to draft a Bill without having regard to the wishes of members of local authorities in this matter. The Minister tells us that he consulted certain people, including councillors, in the matter. I would have preferred him to have informed local authorities of his intentions. Had he done so he would have had some very excellent suggestions to help him in resolving this problem.

Mr. Molloy

I did not say that I consulted anybody.

Mr. Treacy

There is a reference in the brief to indicate that the Minister did so.

Mr. Molloy

Let the Deputy be accurate.

Mr. Treacy

On page 2 of the brief the Minister tells us that he had the matter considered further and in the light of views submitted by many people, including councillors——

Mr. Molloy

I did not say I consulted any councillors. There is a difference between that and what I said, but perhaps the Deputy is not aware of the difference. He is implying that I consulted some councillors but not others. I considered the views that they submitted to me.

Mr. Treacy

Obviously, the Minister solicited advice.

Mr. Molloy

It is not obvious that I solicited advice.

Mr. Treacy

Certainly, the Minister had available to him the advice of certain councillors, presumably, Fianna Fáil members.

Mr. Molloy

I did not consult anybody or any special councillors.

Mr. Corish

Perhaps the Minister looked into his own heart.

Dr. O'Donovan

Into the heart of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Molloy

I consulted the Government.

Mr. Treacy

Very suddenly the Minister tends to be concerned about the morality of this issue and submits this Bill to the House without having designed to consult with members of local authorities. If that had proved cumbersome in any way, he could have informed the General Council of County Councils of his intentions and ascertained the wishes of that body, a national body representative of all the county councils and of all the political parties.

Dr. O'Donovan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Treacy

He would have had a fine concensus of opinion available to him in respect of the changes contemplated. However, he did not do that and we now have this rather hotch-potch piece of legislation before us in an almost empty Chamber.

I hope it is not too late for the Minister to ascertain views on this issue. There are many things we would like to see in the Bill if it is to deal effectively with the problem. The existing system leaves a lot to be desired. The harassment, the incidence of canvassing, the virtual threats and the skullduggery that resulted from the system—all this embarrassed those of us who tried to do a decent job in public life. To that extent we support the Minister, but the most effective way of changing the system is a matter for deliberation here. Would the Minister indicate to the House the extent to which he considers the postal method of collection could be introduced——

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of the collection of rates, postal or otherwise, does not arise.

Mr. Treacy

We are talking of the collection of rates.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are talking of the election of rate collectors.

Mr. P. Belton

What do they do but collect rates?

Mr. Treacy

I am suggesting that the Minister might consider having the rates collected via the post as is the case in respect of ESB accounts.

Dr. O'Donovan

That is the system that has been in operation in Dublin for many years.

Mr. Treacy

It is a question of the office method of collection as against the method of collection by ratepayers. I know this system has been tried in many counties but that there were certain misgivings concerning it. The existing conditions of employment of rate collectors leave much to be desired. The Minister will appreciate that some of them have what they refer to as lucrative "books" whereas others have "books" that cannot be regarded as being lucrative. The workload varies greatly as between one rate collector and another. One collector may cover a very large area and, consequently, command a very high rate of remuneration, while a man covering a relatively small or poor area would be endeavouring to exist on a very low rate of remuneration. We would like to see something done towards equalising the workload and striving towards uniformity in respect of remuneration generally. Also, when a vacancy occurs, existing ratepayers should be given first preference so far as the allotment of a good "book" is concerned.

We are led to believe that the Minister's motives in this matter are most honourable and that the purpose of the exercise is to set aside what seem to be certain malpractices in the present system. However, the present system has been in operation for many years under Fianna Fáil and it seems to me that the system was all right down through the years when Fianna Fáil commanded majorities in most of the county councils and these plum jobs fell invariably to Fianna Fáil nominees. It is significant to note that that majority which Fianna Fáil maintained down through the years has been lost in many areas, that now they see the plums of office falling to other parties. In other words, they have reached a stage where there is nothing further for them in this system and, rather than allow the rate collector positions to fall to other parties, they have introduced this legislation.

I am satisfied that the Minister would not dare to introduce this legislation if his party were in control of the majority of councils because it is clear to me that the Fianna Fáil public representatives would not allow the Minister to proceed along those lines. These were very coveted positions. The element of canvassing that went on is well known. It did not matter a damn what canvassing took place, one knew in advance, by virtue of the majority that any party or combination of parties had on a county council, how the appointments would go. The most ardent supporter of the party invariably got the recommendation. He went through the mock process of appointment. He was eternally grateful to his party for having appointed him and acted as an agent for that party evermore. This is how it has been in every area.

Rate collectors occupied very important positions in public life. They were in constant touch with the ordinary people—the poor, the rich, the farmer, the householder, the shopkeeper—in collecting rates. They also had other duties to perform. Invariably they were the people who drew up the census of population, the register of electors, and the like. They were in constant touch with the people, in every sense of the word. They did untold good for the party and irreparable damage to their political opponents, especially at election time.

These were lucrative posts in that they were part-time and invariably rate collectors had businesses on the side. They were tremendously importants posts, politically speaking. The rate collectors so appointed never forgot their allegiance to the political party that put them there and they worked enthusiastically and dedicatedly thereafter for the advancement of that party, by fair means and foul.

We in the Labour Party are not sorry to see the system ending because, being the minority party unfortunately, there were very few appointments of this kind which fell to our people. The appointments went in the main to Fianna Fáil party men and in many instances to Fine Gael. Very few went to Labour, thank God. The abolition of the system in this instance does not worry us. We want to see clean administration in public life and would support any legislation along those lines.

In his rather short statement the Minister mentioned that he proposed to introduce the regulations soon. The regulations in this matter are the most important aspect. We should like to see these regulations or to hear about them as quickly as possible. The Minister should give us the fullest possible information when he is replying to the debate as to what these regulations will be so that we in these benches can make up our minds as to how best to deal with the matter.

Deputy Fitzpatrick of Fine Gael has an amendment down indicating that the wisest and most effective means of selection of rate collectors would be via the Local Appointments Commission. Obviously, there are other ways. There is the Minister's way of giving the right to the county manager to appoint a local selection board. There is merit in that suggestion also. We are anxious to see the regulations so that we may view the matter in proper perspective.

As one who was chairman of a local authority, South Tipperary County Council, on a number of occasions and had the dubious pleasure of presiding over the appointment of rate collectors and of seeing the procedure adopted there and the little regard there was for qualifications or anything else, I know that almost anyone who proffered himself or herself, providing he or she had a sufficient number of councillors to back him or her, was accepted. There were no standards laid down. There was no proper yardstick applied in determining who would get the position. Qualifications, character or anything else did not count.

Mr. Cunningham

Of course there are standards.

Mr. Treacy

While I have a great deal of respect for Deputy Fitzpatrick's amendment that the matter should be referred to the Local Appointments Commission, to me, having observed the procedure in a practical way it seems to be going from the ridiculous to the sublime to refer this matter to the Local Appointments Commission. However, if we can be assured that when a vacancy arises and the matter is referred to the Local Appointments Commission the position would be confined to applicants from the local area, this would be all right. We understand, however, that the Local Appointments Commission advertise on a national basis and applicants from the whole country could apply for a rate collectorship in Wexford, Tipperary, Kilkenny, or Waterford.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I do not want to interrupt Deputy Treacy but I made it clear that we are in favour of the positions being confined to local residents.

Mr. Corish

Or birth.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): To persons who had been resident for a certain length of time in the area.

Mr. Treacy

Yes. It is of vital importance, whatever method is adopted, that the successful applicant should be of local origin.

Mr. Corish

Otherwise they would all be from Galway, just as when Deputy Blaney was Minister every local engineer and county manager was from Donegal.

Mr. Treacy

The person appointed should know the people, should understand their needs, the period at which they are able to pay.

Dr. O'Donovan

That never worried the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. Treacy

It would not be right to have a stranger dealing with the ratepayers. Rate collectors call back conscientiously, in some cases ten times, to ratepayers.

Mr. Cunningham

So we did appoint good rate collectors. The Deputy is defeating his own argument.

Mr. Treacy

Before the Parliamentary Secretary came in I had paid tribute to rate collectors, irrespective of party. The Parliamentary Secretary should read my speech. I paid tribute to them all as men of integrity. There were lapses here and there. I could name the parties involved and the political parties involved, if I am put to it. It is all right if it is to go to the Local Appointments Commission, but it is very important that the positions should be confined to local applicants because it is only local persons who would know local needs and would be in a position to deal with ratepayers in a humane fashion while collecting the maximum rate for the local authority.

There is merit also in the suggestion by the Minister that it should be left to the county manager to establish a board. To my personal knowledge these boards invariably are representative of people from outlying areas outside the county or the borough or the urban council. I do not wish to cast any aspersions on the county managers. I have operated under them. They were most conscientious men in this matter and so far as they could they appointed—and were careful to do so—the most neutral board, drawn from very wide areas in some cases, so as to ensure impartiality. The system has worked well in respect of appointments to junior posts. From the previous method of appointment I would regard the rate collector post as a rather junior one but a very onerous one now in the matter of the large amount of money for which he is responsible. Having heard the Minister on the regulations we shall make up our minds as to whether we shall support the Local Appointments Commission proposal or the local selection board proposal.

Mr. Cunningham

The regulations will simply provide for an open, competitive examination advertised in advance with the post going to whoever is first on the list.

Mr. Treacy

Will it be the person who gets top marks?

Mr. Cunningham

Yes.

Mr. Corish

He could get 100 per cent in Irish and 2 per cent in maths but could still get the job?

Mr. Cunningham

No. It will be the person placed first on the list having regard to all the factors of the examination.

Mr. Corish

Who would have regard to all the factors?

Mr. Cunningham

The committee, the interview board, the board set up by the managers.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Treacy

I would hope that information will be made very clear to us in the Minister's reply. I take it the applicant will require a knowledge of Irish?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Not in Donegal.

Mr. Kavanagh

Not to talk about Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

Mr. Andrews

Is cóir agus is ceart é sin.

Dr. O'Donovan

Ní bheadh siad in ann labhairt leis muna raibh Gaeilge aige?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Treacy

Members of local authorities will not shed any tears about the implementation of this Bill and the change in the method of election of rate collectors. This has been a source of embarrassment to us in the past and we very much want to have a fairer system of appointment. We hope that by the time this Bill is finally passed we shall have a measure we can all be proud to stand over as public representatives. My concern in my remarks was in regard to the fact that the Minister proceeded to draft the Bill without reference to the members of local authorities. Since it was one of their last effective functions it did merit the courtesy of consultation and of ascertaining of views beforehand.

We support the principle that the change should take place. We shall reserve our views as regards the means to be used whether it will be the Local Appointments Commission or the appointments board under county managers.

Mr. E. Timmons

I welcome and support this measure. As a city representative in the Dáil and a long-standing member of the local authority I can say that it is one of the anomalies of the local government system that in the city area a local representative could not appoint anyone to an office. I think it is widely accepted and would be generally welcomed by the nation as a whole that this much needed local government reform has been decided on by the Government. In my experience at least it was a by-product of the evolution of local government that elected public representatives bore the suspicion that they were open to undue influence from one section or another regarding the discharge of their public duties.

Under the City and County Management Act—I am speaking for Dublin city—public representatives have no say in the appointment of any servant or official of the local authority. The introduction of the City and County Management Act many years ago removed all hint of suspicion in regard to the city representatives that they could play a role in the appointment of officers or others to posts that became vacant. It was an anomaly that has, in my opinion, existed too long that elected representatives in this city, say, could not appoint anybody while in adjoining areas, because it was a county entity, councillors could meet together and make appointments. It must have been a very frustrating situation for long-standing members of local authorities to see such a situation persisting. We have now come to the stage where the public generally recognise that service in a local authority demands a certain standard of education and intelligence and other qualifications and that people appointed to those posts naturally seek promotional opportunities.

The whole system of county councils appointing people to positions as rate collectors denied an opportunity to long-serving officials, men who had given all their lives to discharging duties efficiently. In my opinion it was not conducive to proper and dedicated service by officials that this system should obtain. I welcome this reform on the ground that it widens the scope for promotion for officials of local authorities. It will enable officials of local authorities to participate in examinations that may be set by the county manager or to attend for interviews. In this city there has been confidence in the city manager. An interview board was set up to interview applicants for any vacant post of rate collector and there has never been any criticism expressed about this matter. The men who have been appointed have carried out their onerous and sometimes distasteful work in a most efficient manner. It encourages staff in a local authority to know that some day they will have an opportunity of gaining promotion to the post of rate collector. I welcome this reform because it has ended an anomaly.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There is a little more in this Bill than the naked eye can identify readily. The Bill is ill-conceived and has been presented in a most suspicious manner. I am suspicious because I understand the Minister will introduce further legislation for the strengthening of local government in which additional powers will be vested in rate collectors.

We do not know what these additional powers will be as yet, but here we have the Minister introducing this legislation and appearing with white gloves, if I might use an old court phrase. He is appearing with white gloves, taking on the role of Simon Pure. After a long period of Fianna Fáil government it appears they have woken up to the fact that there is something wrong in connection with the appointment of rate collectors. Why has the Minister introduced the Bill now? If he was so concerned with the integrity of appointments, why did he not introduce this legislation after the last local government elections? Why did his predecessors not introduce this legislation 20 years ago? It is reasonable to ask what has prompted the Minister to introduce the legislation at this stage.

In relation to Government policy generally we know that jobs and appointments usually are a good barometer in gauging political strength throughout the country. I would put one point to the Minister. Last June there was greater co-operation in voting for the election of chairmen, vice-chairmen and mayors than there has been for a considerable time; the anti-Fianna Fáil vote on the various councils began to make itself felt. This fact, together with the possibility of further responsibilities for rate collectors, has made the Minister aware of the fact that if the present system is continued the majority of members of local authorities will appoint people who are opposed to Fianna Fáil.

This Bill is offensive to county councillors and is grossly offensive to rate collectors who have been appointed under the present system. If there have been abuses—there have not been any in my county—the Minister has an obligation to give the House whatever evidence he may have submitted to him by certain parties he has failed to identify. I am sure the Minister will agree that county councils are on the way out. The Minister is now carrying out Government policy in the establishment of bureaucratic control over local authorities. We are at a stage now when national legislation will be made outside this stage and local government as we have known it will be administered by people who are not the elected representatives of the people.

Up to now county councils had little rights in relation to appointments but all that is left for them now is the appointment of a clerk to an old age pension sub-committee. Is the Minister suggesting that every county councillor is a dishonest man? Is he suggesting the councillor is living on corrupt proceeds, that he is extracting money from applicants for jobs? That is what this Bill conveys to me.

There are men in public life, in local councils throughout the country, who have never tainted their hands. They are to be found in all political parties. They are of the highest integrity, men whose votes cannot be bought, men who are above suspicion.

Of course in every plot of carnations one will find a dandelion or two. It is the same in public life. There will be one or two people who will not live up to the general standard of integrity. However, the electors have their remedy. They need not send such men to the council chamber or to the Dáil. That is what democracy is about.

We now find that the whole structure of local authorities is to be changed. At present the only functions local authorities have is the right to appoint rate collectors, the right to appoint clerks to old age pension committees, and their functions under section 4 of the City and County Management Act. All other functions are in the hands of the bureaucrats. I venture to forecast that in the promised reformation of local government local authorities will lose their present functions under section 4. This is in full accord with what the Minister has said, based on a report by McKinsey and others. He can act in the way his predecessor did in regard to Dublin where at the moment there is neither council nor mayor. Through this Bill the appointment of rate collectors is to be put in the hands of county managers.

As a member of my local county council during the past 30 years, I do not know a single councillor who has not stood up solidly and splendidly to his responsibilities in regard to appointment of rate collectors. None of them has ever been known to have acted in any suspicious or corrupt manner in regard to his vote for rate collectors. I myself have voted for numerous people, some successful and some unsuccessful, but in 30 years I do not know of any members of my council who was offered a penny piece for his vote. All of them have fulfilled their obligations according to their consciences. Of course I have known councillors to step out of party line in order to support a candidate in special circumstances. I have seen councillors to support the widow of a rate collector in order that she might have the financial resources to bring up a family God had blessed her with. I have not known any dishonest rate collector appointed in my area but I have known a hell of a number of questionable appointments by the Local Appointments Commission and by county managers. If it can be said that all councillors are not saints it can equally be said of county managers and the Local Appointments Commission.

Why the haste with this Bill? One would imagine that the Minister for Local Government would have consulted local authority interests, that he would have sat down with such bodies as the General Council of County Councils to have worked a system of appointing rate collectors. He could have arranged, for instance, for a statutory selection board of councillors in each area who would recommend a candidate to the county manager. He could have arranged for the appointment of three suitable local authority members to consider and to recommend candidates to the county manager.

I can relate a case which I referred to the then Minister for Local Government. It refers to a certain county secretary who would not allow anybody into his office who had anything to do with The Irish Times or The Irish Independent, but who could go in there waving The Irish Press. That man had said: “I will not be too long county secretary because I will be the next to get the job of county manager”. When I reported this to the then Minister he told me that could not be so, that there was no such vacancy. Within three months, however, there were transfers and a vacancy was declared and that county secretary was appointed county manager. In case there may be inquiries about this, may I say that that appointment had no connection with my constituency. The Minister for Local Government at that time——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is out of order on this Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I know we are dealing with the appointment of rate collectors, not county managers, but this Bill gives the county manager the right to appoint rate collectors and I was about to challenge the present method of appointment of county managers. In this country there are county managers who are grateful for the graces bestowed upon them by Fianna Fáil and who return those graces a hundredfold in all the appointments they make, all of which must come from the ranks of Fianna Fáil.

One of the reasons for this Bill is the fact that Fianna Fáil are losing ground in local authorities and cannot capture the appointment of the rate collectors. In my own county the Fine Gael Party have an overall majority. Since the last local elections Fianna Fáil are not getting the jobs and when Fianna Fáil are not getting the jobs they come into this House to present themselves with white gloves——

Mr. P. Belton

And cry.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

——and cry, and moan and appeal for integrity. When they have the majority, integrity is 100 per cent; when all the appointments are Fianna Fáil, it is all right; but when it comes to appointments by any other party there is corruptions, there is deceit, there is dishonesty, there is bribery. If it is Fianna Fáil, it is in accordance with integrity and honesty.

This Bill stinks. This Bill is depriving honourable councillors of the right to discharge fairly and impartially the duties which have been assigned to them under the City and County Managers Act. This Bill is declaring that all those who have been appointed rate collectors up to now have got their positions by suspicious methods and means and that the councillors who voted for them did so for suspicious reasons. Can any sane Minister for Local Government come into this House and say that every county councillor in Ireland is unworthy and unfit to cast his vote for whoever he thinks will be the best and most highly qualified person to collect rates within the county? This Bill says that the county councillors are irresponsible, that they are weak, that they fall into temptations, that they stretch out their hands and take the bribe. That is what can be read from this Bill. Maybe the Minister knows from the Fianna Fáil councillors what goes on, but I can assure him that there are councillors not associated with Fianna Fáil who never took the bribe and who always voted fearlessly and courageously for whoever they thought was the best and most highly qualified person. Maybe there have been disclosures to the Minister by his own party councillors. Perhaps that is who he was referring to as having made suggestions and representations to him in relation to these appointments.

The Minister said that canvassing goes on. I was at a function in Salthill in the Minister's city last Sunday night. The Minister himself was referred to as an energetic and able canvasser in Galway city and county when seeking votes for himself and for his party colleagues. I want to ask the Minister what is wrong with canvassing. Perhaps there are some public representatives who do not wish to be troubled by a call from a canvasser. A person canvassing for appointment presents himself. By speaking with him one gets to know his standard of intelligence, by questioning him one gets to know his educational qualifications and by further questioning one gets to know his family background. Unless there is some method, how is a public representative to know the type of person for whom he should cast his vote? There is nothing wrong with canvassing. In my lifetime I have been canvassed by numerous Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour supporters and by people who support no party. I was always glad to see them and made up my own mind, recorded my vote and always stood up to the responsibilities entrusted to me as a local representative. That is why I feel that the canvassing of county councillors was not worse than the canvassing of the golf course to get the county manager's golfing comrades to whisper a word into his ear. There have been more appointments made in the golf clubhouses of this country than ever have been made in the council chambers or courthouses. There have been more appointments made in other places.

If county managers are now to have the appointment of rate collectors, the canvassing will not be at the doors of the county councillors, the canvassing will be on a golf course or in a rugby pavilion or wherever the county manager may resort. That is where appointments will be made because many of the Local Appointments Commission appointments are made in golf clubhouses and rugby pavilions. Surely if there is a system to be devised for the appointment of rate collectors there ought to be a general review of the method of appointment of other people in the local service as well. I hope the Minister will make some reference to that. I know it does not come under this legislation but I feel that there is nothing crying out to the wide heavens for vengeance so much as the Fianna Fáil method of appointment of district justices and others to the bench in this country——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that that is not appropriate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

——in which there are no interview boards or no recommendations——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not pursue that line.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

But here, in relation to the appointment of a rate collector the right of expression of local opinion is to be taken from the councillors.

I have already referred to the fact that under this strengthening of local government, to use a ministerial phrase, in the future rate collectors will have a new name and additional duties will be assigned to them. Why has the rate collector always been so important for Fianna Fáil? He is an important individual in his area because in addition to collecting the rates he has other duties to perform. He makes his recommendations in compiling the electors list for the register of electors, and my experience is that the Fianna Fáil rate collector loses no time in having removed from the list the name of anyone who leaves the area or who dies, but in many areas you will see on the electors' list the names of Fianna Fáil supporters who are either dead or have left the district. Maybe that cuts both ways; I cannot say, because in my constituency there are not enough anti-Fianna Fáil rate collectors to enable one to know that.

As well as being responsible for assisting in compiling the electoral list, the rate collector is also asked to report on the waiving of rates for certain poor people. If he is a Fianna Fáil rate collector, he will immediately recommend that no rates should be collected from X, Y and Z because they are Fianna Fáil, but that they must be collected from A and B because they are not Fianna Fáil. The rate collector is also asked, in many cases, to express an opinion on the suitability of a person to occupy a council house.

All these appointments in recent times have been going from Fianna Fáil to Fine Gael and Labour. In case Fine Gael or Labour might benefit politically from the efficiency of a rate collector appointed through the votes of their councillors, Fianna Fáil are now saying: "We had better call a halt, because the electors' list will be in danger; the voters' list will be in danger; the waiving of the rates will be in danger; and the recommendations in respect of certain persons who purchase vested houses, for whom the manager makes an order on the recommendation of the rate collector, will all be in danger. Therefore, the best thing we can do is to stop this method of appointment, and adopt our own method. If we appoint the county manager and we are in power, in return for that the county manager will bestow upon us the benefit of appointing the rate collector who is favourably disposed politically."

That is why I look upon this Bill with the gravest possible suspicion. The Minister may say it is only someone with a very warped mind who could pick that out from the Bill, but I am doing so after 30 years' experience of dealing with managers, viewing the Local Appointments Commission system of appointment and the present method of appointing rate collectors. Why did the Minister for Local Government not ask councillors for their views on this matter? Did he get any reports or expression of opinion from the McKinsey people on this, who were given £140,000 for making some little inquiries in relation to health boards? Was any commission set up? Were there any consultations or discussions before this Bill was drafted?

This Bill has been drafted in haste for some purpose, and the purpose is that it has to be passed into law before the new legislation strengthening local government comes in. As well as that, within the next year or 18 months a large number of rate collectors will be retiring, and they will be retiring in areas where Fianna Fáil have no majority. Rather than give to councillors opposing Fianna Fáil the right to fill the vacancies, they are handing it over to the county manager, because if they whistle the tune, the county manager will respond with a favourable jig to the tune.

I challenge the Minister for Local Government to tell us the number of rate collectors who will be retiring during the next 18 months. Quite a number of them are retiring, and Fianna Fáil cannot fill their jobs. They have a dog in the manger attitude: if we cannot fill them, nobody else will; the only other way we can do it is through the Local Appointments Commission. Have our own lads there to recommend our own lads. That system is supposed to be all right according to some people. That system has produced worse results in relation to appointments than the system whereby the councillor declares himself publicly in a courthouse.

Mr. Desmond

In a public house.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

No, in a courthouse. I am glad the Deputy reminded me of that. The public house appointments are those that are usually made by the others who have the right to make appointments. I am not at all afraid of the expression of opinion in a public house. That is where you are able to feel the pulse of the public. What I am afraid of is the appointment that is made in the golf clubhouse, and goodness knows I have seen enough of them made over the past 30 years, and I have seen them being failures.

I should like to ask the Minister for Local Government how many rate collectors appointed by councils have ever been charged with embezzlement of public money? I venture to say that the answer is practically none. Members of local authorities regard themselves as having a high degree of responsibility to the public and, therefore, they have appointed what they believe to be the most suitable people for the appointment. I do not know everything about the regulations the Minister will make when this Bill is passed, but I do know that a system of appointment by the county manager will not produce the best type of person. If the Minister for Local Government says that this system will do away with canvassing, it means you will only have to canvass one person under this Bill, but under the existing system, as Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick, Cavan, says, you may have to canvass 20 or 25 people. The weight of influence is increased. It is easier to swing one person than to swing 25. For that reason I cannot understand why the Minister for Local Government has not consulted local authorities and told them he was introducing a Bill of this kind.

The creation of the post of rate collector is a matter for the local authority concerned. Local authorities should remember that it is still a function of the councils, even after this Bill becomes law, to create the post of rate collector. The method by which rates must be collected and the decision as to whether there will be rate collectors at all will be matters for the councils to decide. The country councils, seeing the suspicious manner in which this Bill comes into Parliament, must decide—the Minister will not trust councillors to appoint a proper person as rate collector—to discontinue the collection of rates by rate collectors and to have the rates paid in at the council offices in the same way as the Land Commission annuity must be paid into the Land Commission. Ratepayers cannot be more numerous than ESB subscribers. Every ESB bill must be paid into an ESB office. I will use influence with my council to ensure that when these appointments have been taken from us we will no longer collect rates. There would be a suggestion that we are no longer honest people, that the cloud of suspicion hangs over us all and that we fall for bribes and accept them. The rates will be paid into the local office. If we cannot make the appointment, we will do everything we can to hinder Fianna Fáil from making it no matter what means the Minister devises to capture the posts for the purpose of manipulating the electors' list in areas where Fianna Fáil have lost power, authority and respect.

This Bill is a barometer telling us that Fianna Fáil are sinking in rural Ireland. The most hopeful sign in the Bill is the fact that Fianna Fáil must be cracking up completely because the prospects of winning the next local elections must be zero or they would have left the appointment of rate collectors in the hands of local councils. The reason this Bill is brought in is that there are no more jobs in it for Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Molloy

According to Deputy O.J. Flanagan.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Minister did not think it worth while to sit down and write a short letter to the General Council of County Councils asking them to hold a special meeting to consider all aspects of the appointment of rate collectors and to make recommendations as to a method by which the expressed opinion of the elected representatives could have been considered.

I have made a number of suggestions in which the involvement of the local authority could still have an influence in the appointment of rate collectors by recommending three names to the county manager and letting him appoint one of the three. At least that would involve the council with the manager and could be described as real local government. Local government as we know it, as we knew it and as we are likely to know it from McKinsey and company, means that one can drop the word "local" from local government and describe the system as government by decree of bureaucrats from the Custom House, in other words, dictatorship.

The Minister is wondering why there is not greater interest in local affairs and why local authorities are not displaying greater interest in their work. Is it not correct to say that local authorities have practically no functions except to sit and talk? Nothing practical can be done because they have no power. It is a waste of time to have a county manager at the appointment of rate collectors or at other appointments listening to the views of councils, when he can turn around and do what he likes after they have finished talking or are tired of talking.

The making of appointments by interview boards is, in my opinion, a political sham. I have seen many of these boards at work. I do not know whether other public representatives have gone to the same trouble as I but I have always found out in advance who was on these boards. I never had any trouble doing so. The appointment that is made openly and publicly cannot be questioned, but I dread the appointment behind closed doors.

I dread the appointment made behind closed doors. The appointment made behind closed doors has been responsible for depriving many a suitable qualified person of a good job to which he was entitled, either because of his political beliefs or because he was not a member of the same club or the same society with which the majority of the interview board were associated. You cannot get at 25 men together no matter how you try, but it is not too difficult to get at one. It is easier to get at four appointed by the one if you can get at the one to instruct the four. Let nobody believe that that has not gone on. It has gone on; it is going on; and it is being encouraged.

I should like to know what is the position of the county manager when he has the power of appointment under this Bill to appoint a rate collector, if he gets a call from the Custom House from the Minister recommending Mr. X for the job. The county manager will count ten before he turns down the Minister's recommendation.

Mr. Molloy

That is a lot of rubbish.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It may be a lot of rubbish to the Minister.

Mr. Molloy

It is a lot of rubbish like most of what the Deputy has said already.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Take the case of my constituency. What happens when the Minister for Industry and Commerce comes in to make a recommendation and says the Minister for Local Government sent him in to make it? That will carry a certain amount of weight in the mind of anybody who has the sole power of appointment, more particularly when promotions and other appointments are involved, when the Custom House will become involved again with those who will have the additional powers. It is all very fine for the Minister to assure us that he has not interfered with any county manager, and that he will not interfere with any county manager in using his discretion to make these appointments.

Perhaps I do not know the Minister sufficiently well but I recollect the former Deputy MacEntee as Minister for Local Government for a long time and numerous other Fianna Fáil Ministers. As I have said, maybe this is the pure angel Minister with the white gloves. I do not know. Maybe this is he. Maybe we have seen him at last in the Custom House, an honest man. I doubt it.

Mr. Molloy

What does the Deputy mean?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That we have seen the angel Minister with the white gloves in the Custom House.

Mr. Molloy

Is the Deputy doubting my honesty?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

No. I did not say any such thing.

Mr. Molloy

That is what he said.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I would not be so foolish as to have that on record.

Mr. Molloy

If it is on the record right, that is what the Deputy said.

Mr. Connolly

I would not say our manager would give a lot of handouts.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I do not think the Deputy would get anything from him.

Mr. Connolly

Neither would Deputy Flanagan so he need not worry. He is an honest man.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Our manager is an honest man. He is very straightforward and very dependable.

Mr. Connolly

Everything in LaoisOffaly is honest.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

He is most energetic and most industrious. I will tell the House what he has done. He has been responsible for bringing at least three factories to the county which the Minister for Industry and Commerce knew nothing about until they were announced.

Mr. Connolly

The Deputy is only fooling now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It has nothing to do with this Bill.

Mr. Connolly

Deputy Flanagan is having a ball.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It was publicly announced.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Molloy

Could I ask the Deputy a question?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Yes.

Mr. Molloy

Will he give me an honest answer? Which party is he speaking on behalf of? Which political party is he speaking for?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is a very queer question for the Minister to ask me: what party am I speaking for? I am expressing my views on this Bill——

Mr. Molloy

The Flanagan party.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

——having been a member of a local authority for 30 years.

Mr. Molloy

Why does he not do the honest thing and resign from Fine Gael altogether?

Mr. P. Belton

All of Fianna Fáil should be resigning.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flanagan.

Mr. Molloy

You are a very mixedup party.

Mr. P. Belton

You are the mixedup kids. The Minister has a cheek to bring that up.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flanagan.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There would be nobody at all left in the Fianna Fáil Party. Our party are not muzzled and we can speak out our minds in a free democratic manner, unlike Fianna Fáil. There is only one Deputy sitting behind the Minister while this Bill is going through, and there was none for a period.

Mr. Molloy

There was nobody on the Fine Gael benches for a period.

Mr. Creed

That is not right.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flanagan on the Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I was looking at the Minister, not behind him.

Mr. Molloy

There was nobody on the Fine Gael benches at one period during this debate.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): That is not so.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy was the only person present and he left the Chamber.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): When I left Deputy Flanagan was here. I left to answer a phone call. If Deputy Boland had not left the Fianna Fáil Party the Minister would not be there.

Mr. Molloy

There was a period when there was no Fine Gael Deputy sitting on those benches.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): That is not correct.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Since this debate started I have not left the House. I want that to go on record. The Minister is wrong.

Mr. Molloy

If that is so the Deputy must have been invisible, or he must have been very low down on his seat.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I was here before the Minister went out. I was here while the Minister was out. The Minister was not in the House. It was the Parliamentary Secretary who was here.

Mr. Molloy

If Deputy Flanagan tells me he was here from the commencement of the debate, since I read my opening statement, and that he has not left the House since, I withdraw that statement.

Mr. P. Belton

We will ask for a House and get someone in behind the Minister.

Mr. Molloy

He has not said "yes" or "no".

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am glad we have a quorum now because I desire to make a plea to members of the Government party to express their views on the fact that one of the few remaining powers which members of local authorities have is disappearing from them under this Bill.

The Minister has said that he has had representations from certain persons or associations unknown. He has not disclosed the source of his information nor has he put the information on the records of the House. I have to put it to him that he should have consulted the General Council of County Councils to see if an alternative method could be worked out to taking the appointments completely from the elected representatives and vesting the authority as an additional vesting of authority in bureaucrats. For that reason I feel that an expression of opinion as to the method of appointment, the quality of the appointment and the high standard of efficiency of our rate collectors should be put on record. I am convinced that all those people who have devoted the best years of their lives to the public service have rendered an excellent service to the country and to their respective counties. By the introduction of this Bill, the Minister is officially declaring that they are unworthy to make an appointment, that they are dishonest in their methods and liable to fall into any temptation in connection with the exercise of their votes. That in my opinion is a serious slander on public representatives.

Mr. Molloy

Of course I never said that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is what the Bill conveys. This Bill has been rushed in without consultation with county councils, without consultation with the General Council of County Councils, on evidence which the Minister has which he has not disclosed or told us anything about, except to state that certain representations were made to him. Is there any harm in asking him by whom and on what grounds? Has he evidence of dishonest appointments in relation to rate collectorships? He may have and if he has, let him put it on the records of this House because I would like to know what people would be sufficiently influential to warrant the introduction of a Bill by making representations to the Minister. Might I ask the Minister whether it was the Association of County Managers that may have made the recommendation to him? Was it an association? Can he disclose the identity, or must it remain a secret, of the people to whom he has referred who made representations without being invited to do so?

Is it not only right and fair that the county councils should be asked to express an opinion because the vast majority of county councillors are honest men, doing a job free, gratis and for nothing, who never took a penny from anyone in their lives and would not do so. This Bill is a reflection on their integrity and a reflection also on the integrity of the rate collectors already appointed by them.

Mr. Molloy

It certainly is not.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I look upon it as such a reflection. If the Minister now says that the method by which these rate collectors were appointed by the votes of councillors is wrong, that it was suspicious, all those rate collectors appointed under the old system are under the suspicion that they have got their jobs through irregular methods because the present system whereby the council make the appointment is now looked upon as an irregular method of appointment. Therefore all rate collectors to date have got their appointment by and through irregular methods and county councillors must now live under the shadow of having fallen for the bribe in connection with these appointments. As a member of a county council for 30 years, I was never offered a penny piece in my life by anybody seeking such a position, and that goes for the big bulk of county councillors in this country today. They are honest men, men of integrity, whom the Minister does not and will not trust.

He has his reasons for not trusting them and this is that under legislation which has already been conceived and is on the cobweb-surrounded shelves of the Custom House, additional duties are to be performed by rate collectors under the new local government legislation which we hope to have some time in the spring. We will make secret service agents out of the rate collectors and the first move is the taking of the appointments of these people from the hands of local representatives and putting it into the hands of the bureaucrats again. I object very strongly to the fact that local government now give us only section 4 of the County Management Act—that is all that remains—and the appointment of a clerk to an old age pensions committee.

Mr. Connolly

And your people in Laois use section 4 well.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

We use section 4 very well, yes.

Mr. Connolly

Which you do not carry.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Oh, yes.

Mr. Connolly

You failed to carry it. Some of your own party jibbed.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

We did not carry it on the last occasion but we use section 4. We are not like some of the councils who do not know that section 4 of that Act exists and when we want a policy decision we make a decision and instruct the county manager to carry it out. We are not the county manager's lap dog.

Mr. Connolly

You often shake his hand, too.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

We do our job in local government and while that section is on the statute book, we will use it. While we had the appointment of rate collectors, we used it and were never afraid to do so, and every appointment we made would stand the test of opinion inside and outside the courthouse. That goes for the big bulk of appointments in this country and therefore I do not know why we have the haste and the anxiety and the waving of the flags of honesty over the Custom House so suddenly.

I view this legislation with the greatest suspicion. It is ill-conceived and evilly disposed in depriving local representatives of a democratic right which they have exercised as elected representatives and in a manner authorised by the electorate in accordance with the laws of this country. Any-legislation which diminishes the right or the authority of the county councillor weakens local government. Any legislation which weakens the authority of this House, as we have seen in the past week or ten days, weakens the strength and authority of this House in relation to those of us who want to see local government still functioning in some manner. This Bill is going to be the means of lessening an interest in local government which I regard as most regrettable and wrong, but I want to put it on record that there are honest men in public life, men of sincerity and integrity, and I am sorry that this Bill casts such a very great suspicion on their conduct as public representatives. After their years, they deserve better and they deserve more, and if the Minister will not say it, let me express a word of thanks to the public representatives of this country who have done a first-class job, free, gratis and for nothing, when on numerous occasions there was not a single voice to express even a "thank you" for their endeavours on behalf of the public.

Mr. Desmond

As one who has raised this matter repeatedly in the House I congratulate the Minister on introducing this essential Bill. It is 17 years since this House had an opportunity of pronouncing on this issue. On that occasion in 1955 the Dáil decided by 77 votes to 18 not to amend the City and County Management (Amendment) Bill, 1954. On that occasion, too, the House deemed itself to be satisfied with the then system of appointment of rate collectors.

The Minister used a tongue-in-cheek attitude when introducing the Bill. His choice of language was unique. He spoke of unreasonable pressures being exerted and he referred to alleged abuses. He used the term "mal-practices" and said that the system has proved to be an embarrassment. He spoke also of the ill effects of the system and of criticisms of it. The Minister might have been more frank because it is the function of politicians to spell out clearly what these words and phrases mean. If by "undue pressures" it is meant there has been bribery in the appointment of rate collectors, the Minister would be nearer the truth.

Mr. Molloy

I did not say that.

Mr. Desmond

I said that the Minister would have been nearer the truth had he said so. If the Minister, instead of using the phrase "alleged abuses", had said he was aware of there being party political patronage whereby those who were "well got" in their parties were given those jobs, he would have been nearer the truth. If, instead of using the term "embarrassment", the Minister had said that the system was a public scandal, he would have been nearer the truth, just as he would have been if he had said that democracy in this country had suffered considerably because of the abuses under the system. He might have mentioned, too, the ill effects of the system on the democratic structure of the country.

I am well aware—my heart bleeds for Deputy Flanagan in this regard— that the majority of appointments in the urban areas are unquestionably above board. For example, in the Dublin area rate collectors are appointed by a committee of selection, by an impartial interview board comprising representatives of the legal, valuation and personnel departments of Dublin Corporation. Candidates undergo an elaborate system of interview, and internal competition, and basic educational standards apply. Therefore, there is no problem in this respect in the urban areas. In rural areas, too, many of these appointments are above board, but we would be utterly hypocritical here if we were not to admit that on occasion in county council areas there has been rank corruption, bribery and party political pressure in so far as these appointments are concerned.

Let us be honest about this. No political party in Dáil Éireann, whether in Government or in Opposition, can claim any exemption from those charges. I have seen it happen in my party. I have known allegations of corruption, of bribery, of the passing of money and the people being favoured specially, even in my own party. To my shame I must admit that. I have known these things to happen in Fine Gael and in Fianna Fáil. One does not require the privilege of the House to make that assertion. I have seen it happen in particular in relation to so-called Independents who are in a very special position whereby, if they hold the balance of power, they may get a year's salary for the rate collectorship instead of the couple of hundred pounds which a county councillor might be wont to demand for his vote.

Mr. P. Barry

I hope the Deputy is not suggesting that these things go on in Fine Gael.

Mr. Molloy

He is making exaggerated allegations.

Mr. Clinton

These allegations are not true in so far as this party are concerned.

Mr. Desmond

I am making these allegations as one who has been in public life for 15 years.

Mr. Clinton

The Deputy has never spent as much as an hour on local authority work.

Mr. Molloy

He is not a member of a local authority.

Mr. Desmond

I speak with knowledge of a great many of the internal operations of local authorities and I say that I am under no illusion whatever in regard to a number of appointments I have seen. I have the gravest suspicions——

Mr. Molloy

Suspicions.

Mr. Desmond

——in relation to the appointments and I do not require disappointed candidates to come to me and make that allegation. Therefore, I regret to have to say that some of the wailing and the crocodile tears we have witnessed here tonight regarding the divesting of certain local councillors of their functions may be for the loss of power, prestige, political patronage and, in some instances, the loss of earnings.

I commend the Minister on introducing the Bill. The exercise is a healthy and a valuable one. To put the matter in its proper perspective, I believe that the overwhelming majority of county councils will welcome the Bill. The local government union have pointed out at successive annual conferences the need for a substantial change in the system. I do not know whether we will have a local system set up by a county manager. The Minister has been remiss in not having spelled out the kind of regulations he has in mind. I would like him to tell us how are the interview boards to be set up and how the appointments are to be made, the basic educational qualifications required, the promotional outlets arising and so on. All these are issues on which the Minister has been silent. If the Minister were to elaborate on the regulations to be made, the earlier reservations we had regarding the function of the Local Appointments Commission would be mitigated substantially.

The Minister should have been more frank with the House in spelling out what is meant precisely by the phrases to which I have referred already. Deputy Andrews reminded me that this is not merely a question of party political tactics. For example, Deputy Niall Andrews, who is a member of Dublin County Council, has called for the introduction of a new system.

Mr. Andrews

Shades of things to come in relation to the young man.

Mr. Desmond

Therefore, Deputies on all sides, particularly those who are members of county councils, will welcome this Bill. Its enactment will result in the rate collectors having a cloud lifted from them, a stigma they have had to endure because of the scandalous system of appointment. Of course, the overwhelming majority of rate collectors were selected in a manner that was entirely honourable, but in the case of from 5 per cent to 10 per cent of those appointed there was corruption of the worst kind, but that corruption will cease as a result of the passing of this Bill. When I hear of one prominent Fianna Fáil Deputy in Galway County Council protesting faintly about the loss of power I know that the Minister is doing a good day's work and that the introduction of the change is long overdue. The passing of the Bill will render democracy more effective in this country.

Mr. Clinton

It is most regrettable that Deputy Desmond, who has never served an hour on a local authority, should see fit to make such serious charges against public men who, I would say, in 99 per cent of cases have given dedicated service to the people they represent. I have been a member of a local authority in County Dublin for a number of years and I have never known of bribery and I have never known of attempted bribery during those years.

Mr. Desmond

The Labour Party would not abstain on the question of such appointments if they did not have grave reason.

Mr. Clinton

There is no Labour Party member of that county council who would not say the same as I have said if he were in the House.

Mr. Desmond

Why do they abstain on the question of all appointments?

Mr. Clinton

It is very serious that Deputy Desmond should come in and use the privilege of this House to smear the members of local authorities throughout the country. I condemn him for that.

Mr. Desmond

I am suggesting that it has happened. Does Deputy Clinton deny that it has ever happened?

Mr. Clinton

If Deputy Desmond knows that it has happened, he should not be afraid to say where it has happened and who was responsible. I do not think that statements should be made in this House unless they are capable of being supported.

Dr. O'Donovan

Who is responsible for cutting off the water from the itinerants in County Dublin?

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with rate collectors.

Dr. O'Donovan

It is relevant to what is under discussion now.

Mr. Clinton

All I can say to Deputy O'Donovan is that I had nothing to do with the cutting off of water from the itinerants in County Dublin.

Dr. O'Donovan

The Dublin County Council had.

Mr. Clinton

The Dublin County Council never made a decision to cut off the water from the itinerants in County Dublin.

Dr. O'Donovan

They did cut off the water.

Mr. Clinton

It is a long way from the Bill. Here is another example of a Member of the House who never served an hour on a local authority making statements.

Mr. Molloy

We all had the water cut off from time to time.

Dr. O'Donovan

"Rahoonery." You are both in the same camp, are you? Is that it? The two big parties are in the one camp?

Mr. Molloy

There has been more done for itinerants in Galway than in any other county.

Mr. Andrews

Let us hear Deputy Clinton and his fine defence of local councillors.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not think county councillors want anyone to defend them.

Mr. Andrews

They serve voluntarily.

Dr. O'Donovan

I am well aware of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

I do not know who is speaking now, there are so many speaking. Having made the statement that I have made, I want to say that I am one of the people who voted in the county council in favour of a change. This is because I personally have been embarrassed by the pressures and the various aspects of the appointments system up to the present. Quite frankly, I am shirking the responsibility.

Dr. O'Donovan

The itinerants were not embarrassed by the water pressure.

Mr. Clinton

If the Deputy wants to talk about itinerants and water pressure, let him talk but do not let him try to put anything on my back in this regard. I have done as much and more for the itinerants.

Dr. O'Donovan

Was the Deputy chairman at that time?

Mr. Clinton

No, I was not. That matter is not under discussion but when it is under discussion I will talk about it.

Dr. O'Donovan

I hope the Deputy will. Whatever about the coalition, Fianna Fáil are done for.

Mr. Clinton

The Minister concluded his speech by saying:

It is, as I have said, my view that appointments of county rate collectors should be made strictly on the basis of merit and I feel that the time is now opportune to make the change and that it should be made as soon as possible.

What is merit in the matter of the appointment of a rate collector? It is one of the most difficult appointments one could make. From the salary point of view, there are many people who have degrees and who are not able to get as good a job. The question of whether a man would be a good rate collector or not cannot be decided on academic qualifications. Where does one start? The main requirement in a rate collector is honesty. You require a person who is reasonable and who knows the circumstances of the ratepayers in the particular area and who will be reasonable in dealing with them. That is the reason for having rate collectors.

There would appear to be great support for the suggestion that the county manager should make the appointment. That suggestion is supported strongly by members of the Labour Party here. History proves that system to be wrong, certainly in the case of the local authority of which I have been a member for a long time. There was a time when, like Dublin Corporation at the moment, Dublin County Council was suspended for a period of three or four years. During that period the commissioner appointed three rate colectors and the three of them went wrong. There is no similar history in regard to the political appointments over the years.

Dr. O'Donovan

What was the name of the commissioner?

Mr. Clinton

The three that the commissioner appointed all went wrong. The politicians are supposed to be a crowd of dishonest crooks and are being castigated as such, openly in this House. Whatever people may say about them, the people they appointed, certainly in the county in which I have been a member of the local authority for a long time, were honest men and reasonable men, on the whole, and it did not matter which party got the appointment.

I realise that these jobs should not be filled on a political basis but, then, as long as the system is as it is, that is the way it will be done. I am at a loss to know what system will produce the best results which, in the last analysis, is what matters. It is difficult to say that the man who has not academic ability should get no plum.

Dr. O'Donovan

And the man who has no education gets no water.

Mr. Clinton

I take serious objection to this and serious offence at this remark because I have no knowledge whatsoever of the allegations being made by the Deputy.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not believe the Deputy.

Mr. Clinton

It is deplorable that the Deputy should use this House to make allegations against a man who would have nothing to do with this sort of thing——

Dr. O'Donovan

Oh yeah.

Mr. Clinton

——and who has gone out of his way to help itinerants on many occasions.

Dr. O'Donovan

Talk is cheap.

Mr. Clinton

Talk is very cheap with the Deputy on this occasion. If the Deputy can prove anything let him come in and prove it when the time is right, that is, when the Estimate is being discussed.

Dr. O'Donovan

Talk is still cheap.

Mr. Clinton

The Deputy is in a deplorable mood this evening. This proposal has not been introduced by the Minister for Local Government and by the Fianna Fáil Party because they were dissatisfied with the system. It is wide open to suspicion. The Fianna Fáil Party have a reputation for jobbery. This is an effort to pretend that they are now prepared to purge themselves of all this, that they are turning over a new leaf, that there will be no jobbery in future, that they will not interfere in any appointments. I have known of the smallest appointments in which Ministers have interfered and given directions from their Departments.

Mr. Molloy

We have just heard all about the jobbery of Fine Gael in Offaly.

Mr. Barry

We did not.

Mr. Molloy

Or in Laois—whichever county council Deputy Flanagan is a member of.

Mr. P. Barry

I did not hear it. I was here for all of Deputy Flanagan's contribution and the Minister was not.

Mr. Molloy

I heard Deputy Flanagan over the loudspeaker in the anteroom.

Mr. Clinton

The Government are trying to kill two birds with this one stone. They know they have lost control of the local authorities and that we in Fine Gael have 84 extra members of local authorities since the last local elections, that we have control of most of the councils and that we have supported the change here this evening. The reason why they have done it is that they are no longer able to make these appointments and they have agreed to come in here and, through this whitewashing effort, give the impression that Fianna Fáil are taking on a new look. I am not convinced that Fianna Fáil are taking on a new look.

Mr. M. Smith

That is not a convincing argument.

Mr. Clinton

There is fair evidence to support what I am saying.

Mr. M. Smith

The Deputy supports the change.

Mr. Clinton

Then the suggestion is made that the function should be left to the county manager. I shall not say that county managers are all dishonest men—certainly not—but I am not happy that if the matter is left in this way the best possible job will be done. The setting up of the panels will be extremely important and there should be rules and regulations to ensure that there is an impartial assessment of applicants and that they should not get the jobs on academic qualifications because if they do, many honest, deserving men will be deprived of them. I have known many men who had very limited academic qualifications who did first-class jobs as rate collectors and served the country well.

Dr. O'Donovan

What have academic qualifications to do with collecting rates?

Mr. Clinton

The inclination is to set up a competition on the basis of academic ability and it is very difficult, when making an appointment, not to have this in mind or to rule it out. First, I think the appointment should be kept fairly local, if possible, within the service which itself requries the office, local enough for the people making the appointment to know above all that this is an honest candidate and has a family history of honesty, and also that he is a reasonable person and a good mixer who will have regard to difficulties, perhaps temporary, which people have from time to time, people who will pay up when they get over these difficulties.

Various recommendations have been made. There has been talk about office collection. We tried that in County Dublin and it has not been successful. Deputy Flanagan seems to think it would be successful and it may have been a success in other counties but our difficulty was that we had a very low percentage collection when it was done through the office. It was never possible to find out the cost of having the job done by means of office collection because there were people engaged part-time on that collection and we could never get the true figure. We never had a county manager who would say: "This is the cheap and the right way to collect rates." Actually, the county manager himself recommended us to get away from this system and appoint rate collectors because they gave a far more satisfactory collection. I believe collecting by rate collectors is as cheap as any other system and is better and more reasonable when you appoint the right people. I favour continuing appointing rate collectors and I believe nobody will lose on it: it is the right system.

I think the recommendation made by our shadow Minister for Local Government, Deputy Fitzpatrick, is probably the right one; that the Local Appointments Commission should make the appointments: the reward for the job is in that bracket. I hope they win look for the characteristics and qualities that should be in a rate collector, honesty, good mixing ability, reasonableness and dependability. I agree that the matter should be divorced from politics but I should be the last to say that the vast majority of appointments made by politicians in the past were bad ones. They certainly did not prove to be bad appointments in County Dublin. They were made on a political basis but, as Deputy Flanagan says, they were made openly and we had to answer for them. We carried out a system which was there and which was the only legal system. We had the courage to operate it and accept responsibility.

No doubt we had recent appointments which drew much criticism and a good deal of print but it is only fair to say that vested interests were involved because the man who went into all the print and all the castigation of the public representatives who carried out their responsibilities under the law as it exists, had a vested interest himself. Everybody knows that he had a vested interest in having a rap at the people appointed on that occasion. That did not give him the best motive for criticising a system with which none of us was wholly satisfied. The public representatives who operated the system did so to the best of their ability in the circumstances. It was often an embarrassment to them but they stood up to that. It was one of these distasteful jobs where many of one's friends had to be disappointed—you made one friend and 20 enemies, perhaps. When you must operate that kind of system you should not be rapped for having to do your duty by public representatives in this House acting as they did today, public representatives who, in the main, have never in their lives done an hour's work for nothing in a local authority. I shall always stand up for the people I see spending so many unselfish hours working for the people because they are interested in the people and many of them have no hope and some no ambition of ever going any further in public life but want to provide a good public service for people at that level. We should all admire these people and we should not use the privilege of this House to make all sorts of extremely ugly allegations about them.

Mr. P. Barry

I should like to associate myself with Deputy Clinton in his condemnation of the remarks by Deputy Desmond earlier this evening who made allegations about members of county councils. I did not hear him perfectly but I think at one stage he said that he knew somebody who had been offered a bribe of one year's salary as a rate collector to obtain a post. As long as I know county councils, and I have been a member of a corporation for six years and have been on the fringe of politics and I know many members of a county council over a great many years and I cannot say, of all county councillors of all political parties, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour and Independent, that I know one who would accept a bribe to vote for a rate collector. It is true that members of political parties go to their supporters on the councils and ask them to vote for them. As this does not apply to county borough councils I am not speaking from first-hand information but I imagine what Deputy Clinton says is true, that for every friend you make, you make 20 enemies. Deputy Desmond should not have made those accusations here or else he should have been specific and named the case of the person whom he knew who accepted such a bribe or was offered such a bribe.

The Minister said that he had the matter further considered and "in the light of views submitted by many people, including councillors, I came to the conclusion that it was time to change the system." What councils did the Minister consult with? Certainly not with Cork Corporation as a body——

Mr. Creed

Or Cork County Council.

Mr. P. Barry

And Deputy Fitzpatrick says not with Cavan County Council and Deputy Clinton told me before he stood up, not with Dublin County Council.

Mr. L'Estrange

And not with Westmeath County Council.

Mr. Molloy

I did not say I consulted with any county council.

Mr. P. Barry

The Minister said "including councillors". I am trying to establish that he did not consult with any county council as a body but that he consulted with the Fianna Fáil members of county councils.

Mr. Molloy

I did not use the word "consult" at all. If the Deputy will read it again, he will see that.

Mr. P. Barry

"I had the matter further considered and in the light of views submitted by many people, including councillors, I came to the conclusion"——

Mr. Molloy

There is no mention of consulting.

Mr. P. Barry

The Minister accepted the views of councillors submitted to him and obviously the councillors were Fianna Fáil councillors. Of course, what they said to the Minister was: "The game is up. We cannot get the jobs; therefore, change the rules". This is what the Minister is doing.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy is merely surmising.

Mr. P. Barry

Does the Minister know of the parable where the servant cheats his master and is found out? The servant went to people who owed money to his master and he told them: "Take your bill and write down 80". This is exactly what the Minister is doing now.

Mr. Molloy

That is not so.

Mr. P. Barry

The Minister is making the best of a poor job. It is obvious——

Mr. Molloy

It may suit the Deputy to think this is behind the measure I have introduced but that is not the case.

Mr. P. Barry

If Fianna Fáil thought they could hold on to dishing out the rate collectorships in the county councils, they would not have introduced this Bill.

Mr. Creed

Can the Minister tell us what councillors' views he considered?

Mr. Molloy

Does the Deputy want me to go back through my files?

Mr. Andrews

Is the Deputy suggesting that Fianna Fáil councillors are not entitled to have views?

Mr. P. Barry

One can imagine the story they gave the Minister. If Fianna Fáil councillors thought it would be of benefit to their party to advise the Minister not to change the system of appointment, this Bill would not be introduced. They told him the game was up and that they could no longer be sure of appointing rate collectors and county councillors because Fine Gael, with the help of Labour and Independent members, now control so many county councils. Fianna Fáil realise they cannot control the county councils; therefore, they are trying to bring in a system where the law of averages at least will work.

Mr. Molloy

That is the Fine Gael mind at work. It must be the guilty conscience of Fine Gael.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister should not talk about a guilty conscience.

Mr. P. Barry

The Minister doth protest too much. I think the Minister accepts the truth of what I have said.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy is misinterpreting the position.

Mr. Andrews

I think the Deputy was quoting the gospel according to Peter.

Mr. P. Barry

The Deputy may not know it, but the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Minister stated in his speech: "As things now stand there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures may be exerted on the elected members". Deputy Desmond took exception to two words in the sentence and he extended it to mean the offer of bribes. Members of political parties canvass support among their own county councillors when they are looking for these positions and, by and large, no matter whether the appointees were Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour men, the people concerned proved honest and courageous. The fact that the people had local knowledge and were well known to ratepayers was a point in their favour. I should prefer to see rate collectors appointed by the Local Appointments Commission, as Deputy Fitzpatrick suggested. If this is done, there should be some way of advising the board to ensure that knowledge of local affairs and of the local people would be one of the qualifications required for rate collectors.

The Minister also stated the following:

The question was raised in an Adjournment debate in the Dáil on 18th April last when I said that when the House gets an opportunity to discuss legislation dealing with the general question of the powers and functions of members of local authorities, the matter would fall to be discussed in that context.

The Minister has not waited to do this. He brought in this small Bill to deal with one aspect of local government. Twice in the last month Ministers have brought in small pieces of legislation where major legislation is needed; for instance, with regard to the Constitution, instead of having a general review they have introduced legislation to amend one Article. Last month the Minister for Labour brought in a small Bill dealing with minimum hours of notice at a time when the whole sphere of industrial relations needs review. This piecemeal change in the introduction of legislation should not be condoned. Instead of having bits and pieces brought before the House every month, there should be a general review of the system of local government at the earliest date and we should be given a chance to discuss the changes that will be necessary.

Mr. Tunney

A Cheann Comhairle, níl sé ar intinn agam labhairt i bhfad ar an gceist seo. Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis na Teachtaí eile agus cuireann sé ionadh orm an caoi ina bhfuil siad ag iarraidh cos a choimeád in áit amháin agus an dara cos a choimeád in áit eile. De réir mar a thuigim an scéal, fáiltíonn siad go léir roimh an mBille. Glacann siad go bhfuil sé in ann athrú a dhéanamh ach tá Fine Gael ag ligint orthu go mbeadh sé níos fearr dá ndéanfadh an Coimisiún é seo in ionad an bainisteora. Sin a bhfuil idir iad féin agus an tAire sa mhéid atá a dhéanamh aige.

Admhaíonn siad go léir cé chomh tábhachtach is atá sé nach ndéanfaí an ceapúchán seo amháin ag éirí as cúrsaí oideachais agus tagaim leo sa mhéid sin. Admhaíonn siad cé chomh tábhachtach is atá sé gur fear cneasta a gheobhadh an post, gur fear a bheadh ann a mbeadh eolas na h-áite aige, pearsantacht mhaith aige agus fear a thuigfeadh deacrachtaí na ndaoine a bhfuil orthu rátaí a íoc. Má tá siad dáiríre faoi sin, níl a fhios agam cén caoi gur féidir a chruthú go ndéanfadh an Coimisiún "job" níos fearr ná mar a dhéanfadh an bainisteoir de.

Má tá siad chomh sásta sin leis na ceapacháin a bheith ann go dtí seo cén fá nach dtéann siad díreach in aghaidh an Bhille agus é sin a rá? Níl sin á rá acu.

B'fhéidir go raibh an Teachta Desmond beagáinín ró-dhian ar na comhairleoirí ach, mar sin féin, deireann gach éinne nach raibh gach rud in ord. Bhí nócha cúig faoin gcéad thar a bheith sásta go raibh gach rud i gceart. Dúirt an Teachta O.J. Flanagan an rud céanna ach ní raibh sé á rá go raibh an t-iomlán i gceart. Ceapaim go mbeadh áthas ar chomhairleoirí gan an dualgas seo a beith orthu. Bheadh, abair, 20 iomathóirí i gcoimhlint maidir le post amháin agus bheadh ar na comhairleoirí ceann amháin acu a roghnú. Ceapaim nach maith leo an dualgas sin a bheith orthu.

It was not my intention to speak here but having listened to previous speakers I was at a loss to understand the case they pretended to make against the Bill. All seemed to be agreed that the existing system is not perfect. We must accept that no human system will ever be perfect. There seemed to be agreement that here and there, at least, in the matter of rate collectorships things were not as they should have been. However, I thought Deputy Desmond was a little too severe on the system—not the system, perhaps, but the unfortunate councils called on to operate the system.

I would disagree with the point made that independent councillors were known to talk in terms of getting a year's salary. That is possibly going too far and narrowing the channel to the extent that unwarranted and incorrect suspicion might be cast on independent councillors. What appealed to me least of all was the attitude of the Fine Gael speakers who seemed on the one hand to be welcoming the new measure but at the same time indicating that they wanted the Local Appointments Commission to make the appointments. Deputies Clinton and Barry made the point, with which I agree, that the appointment of a rate collector need not necessarily be on academic qualifications. Then they spoke of the desirability for such appointees, first of all, to be honest and that they must be familiar with the areas and the people, that they must be the type of persons who would be able to extract the appropriate moneys from the ratepayers.

How, then, could they continue to suggest that the best way to operate the system was to hand the appointments over to the Local Appointments Commission? I disagree with that suggestion because the county manager is much more likely to be able to recognise the qualifications necessary. It has been said that the bulk of rate collectors appointed under the present system have carried out their duties well. I see no reason to disagree, but that does not mean that the suggested new system will not produce men who will be able to carry out their duties equally well if not better.

I sympathise with Deputy Flanagan in his nostalgia and concern for the system that would now seem to be disappearing. On the other hand, I think that sentimentality and memories of the past are not sufficient grounds for retaining that which we are now seeking to change for something better. Most politicians will be quite happy to see the old system disappearing if for no other reason than that in the case of such appointments they had to select one man from up to 20. Having cast their votes for one man, they alienated 19 others and while they retained the respect, admiration and sometimes the support of the man appointed, as that man advanced and became involved in his duties his appreciation disappeared. Whether that is so or not, the system is disappearing.

Mr. Kavanagh

Under the present method there are two ways of appointing rate collectors. In urban and corporation areas the appointment has been by the county managers, after applicants have been interviewed by a board set up by him. In county council areas the method of appointment is by the votes of councillors for the various applicants. In county council areas the present method does not take into account to any great degree qualifications of education or general suitability.

The system has been used for many years and it should be looked at closely before it is abandoned. When I became aware that the Bill was to be taken this week I took the liberty of consulting some of the collectors in an association in my county in order to find out the views of those people on the system now coming to an end. Their secretary wrote to me this morning and I should like to quote briefly from that letter:

Most of them are of the opinion that an appointments commission would be the best for all concerned. There are two disadvantages in this method, however. It would mean that the appointments would be open to the Twenty-six Counties and perhaps candidates with a better knowledge of Irish would get the job. Also, as you know, integrity, local knowledge and knowing how to deal with the public are very important. The old system may have had its faults but it could be pointed out that rate collectors have had a very good record as far as honesty, et cetera, is concerned.

It is fair for all of us to add that this is quite true. The record of rate collectors appointed under the present system is as good as any you will find. The real criticism of the system is that the appointments were made on a political basis. There is no criticism of the performance of the rate collectors of the present or the past in the present proposals. The criticism on all sides surely is that one had to be a member of a political party or certainly a very strong supporter of a political party before one had any chance of getting a job as a rate collector. I think I should declare my own interest in this because if anybody looks at Thom's Directory he will find that I am listed as a rate collector. I did this job for 12 years but on my election to this House I gave it up and another person has now been appointed. I was appointed to an urban area by the method which the Minister is now introducing for the whole country. I suppose I naturally should agree with the method since I was chosen by it but I do think that the method is as good as that suggested by Fine Gael, that appointments should be made by the Local Appointments Commission. I hold the view for the reason that my friends in Wicklow have stated, that the knowledge of the local area will obviously be more in the minds of people who are on that board, who are generally selected from adjoining county areas to make the appointment. The qualities and qualifications which, it has been stated on all sides here, should be paramount will be given the best consideration by that method of appointment. Everybody is agreed that known integrity should be the first prerequisite of anybody being appointed to this job; secondly, a knowledge of the local area and, thirdly, some experience of dealing with the public. For this reason people who know the area are the best people to make the appointment.

The Bill, by its very introduction, does, in a way, cast some doubts on the method of the past and in that way casts some doubts on the propriety of the councillors in making those appointments. My colleague on these benches was very honest and forthright when he made the assertions that he did make. If he is aware that these things have happened there is no harm in his coming into the House and saying so. He should, perhaps, have said those things before now, elsewhere. When he became aware that these things were going on he should have made the accusations at that time.

I have given what I believe, and what many others believe, should be the qualifications for the job. I would have liked to have seen the Minister take the opportunity to make more sweeping changes in the legislation and perhaps take into account promotion in the job. Rate collection areas within the same county vary. Will this new system mean that a person who is on a very low scale of pay will be at a disadvantage in securing a transfer to some more lucrative area? I hope the Minister when he makes his regulations will give people who have done the job well some chance of being promoted when jobs come up in their counties.

The criticism that the Minister did not consult members of county councils is valid. If county councillors are to lose one of the few functions left to them they should at least have been consulted about it. The Minister in this respect would have found that the vast majority of county councillors would be only too willing to give him this Bill and to agree with him that the method should be changed.

The main criticism of the present system is not about the people who have been appointed. They have proved by their energy in the job that they are capable of doing it exceedingly well. It is one of the few jobs where the work of the individual can be measured accurately. The collection of a warrant is usually produced at the end of March or early April. In most cases rate collectors will be seen to be 97, 98 or 99 per cent efficient in doing their job. I do not think there is any other category of workers who can show accurately their efficiency in that manner every year. Deputies might be a bit embarrassed if we had to produce accurate figures about our efficiency in that way. The criticism is simply that these men were appointed on the basis of their political affiliations. If that method is being departed from in this Bill we should all welcome it.

Mr. Creed

I happen to be a member of a local authority as well as a Member of the Dáil and I resent very much the remarks made by the Minister in relation to members of local authorities. I shall quote the part of his speech to which I object. He said:

The arguments against the system are well known—a system of appointment made by vote of elected members of local councils does not readily lend itself to the detailed procedures and control which would ensure that selection is made on merit alone. As things now stand there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures may be exerted on the elected members. The alleged abuses and malpractices which are reported in the newspapers from time to time reflect no credit on the system and I think it fair to say that the system has proved an embarrassment to councillors over the years.

I resent that. The whole attitude of the Minister for Local Government and the officials in the Custom House is to downgrade elected representatives. I resent that very much and I am a member of Cork County Council. We did not appoint any rate collector in Cork since 1966 when on one day we appointed four. It took one full day to make four appointments and the Minister will have access to the minutes of that meeting and he will find that the appointments were not made on a political basis even though there is an inference in the Minister's speech that members of local authorities are engaged in malpractices. I think the Minister should withdraw that.

Mr. Molloy

I did not make any such allegation.

Mr. Creed

It is implied in that speech.

Mr. Molloy

I referred to reports in newspapers.

Mr. Creed

Yes, in newspapers, but the Minister would be well advised to examine the background to that outburst in the Press. I saw the article referred to by the Minister.

Mr. Molloy

I am not referring to any particular article.

Mr. Creed

I saw one and I am sure the Minister had that in mind, too, and the Minister would be well advised to examine the circumstances that brought about that outburst. I want to ask the Minister a question. We decided, as a result of that election in 1966, to which I have referred, that in respect of every other vacancy that would occur in Cork County Council for a position of rate collector, we would hand over the collection of that area to the office. If this Bill becomes law and in the event of a vacancy arising, will the Minister then compel the Cork County Manager to appoint a rate collector? Contrary to other people's views and opinions, we find in Cork that the office collection is far more effective and efficient and a far cheaper system of collection. However, would the Minister say if, as a result of that decision, we will then be forced to fill the vacancies for rate collectors?

I agree with the amendment proposed by Deputy Fitzpatrick. I do not agree with the managerial system. As everybody knows perfectly well, the Minister has great influence over managers and, as somebody said to me quite recently, the Minister for Local Government is magnetic as far as managers are concerned and has them under his thumb. If the manager has the appointment of rate collectors, even though the manager be a very honest man, if the Minister took up the phone and asked that a certain person be appointed, I have no doubt but that the manager would accede to his request.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy must be very foolish if he believes all that.

Mr. Creed

I do believe it and I am convinced that the vast majority of the people believe exactly the same thing. That is why I object to the system proposed in this Bill. A special technique is required for the collection of rates and it is very necessary also for a rate collector to know the area in which he is collecting, the type of people, their family circumstances et cetera. In Cork people can pay rates by instalments and this system operates very effectively. It is easier for some ratepayers to pay by instalments than to pay a lump sum. If we in the Cork County Council are forced to appoint rate collectors again——

Mr. Molloy

You will not be forced. There will be no change in Cork.

Mr. Creed

I am glad to hear that. It is very necessary to have somebody who knows the area and the people. I do not like this reflection on and this downgrading of local authority members. I happen to be chairman of the county committee of agriculture, and a report appeared twice in different papers in regard to a proposal made by a member of the county committee to change the system of appointment of agricultural instructor. When the member did not pursue this proposal it was stated in the newspapers that some members of the county committee would get as much as £40 for their vote. It is deplorable that such a reflection is made on people who serve the public. They have to go before the public when an election comes to seek re-election, and if they do not do their job properly they will not be re-elected. The Association of Agricultural Advisers contradicted this allegation flatly and said that in regard to none of them who canvassed members was it ever suggested that a vote should be paid for, and I want to repeat that I resent this implication in the Minister's speech. It is something that reflects on the members of every local authority, and this is not justifiable in my opinion.

I support the amendment proposed by Deputy Fitzpatrick. I am fearful of appointments that are made behind closed doors. I do not want to see a vacancy arising and that, as very often is done by the local Fianna Fáil cumann, the Minister would be instructed or advised to influence the manager in appointing a man whose name would be recommended to him.

Mr. M. Smith

I welcome this Bill, and before going on to say anything about the proposed change I should like to pay tribute to the decisions taken by various county councils under the old system. I think it is a measure of the collective responsibility of the members that the old system, despite the inherent difficulties in it, was a success in that it achieved a very high percentage intake of rates in the counties in which it operated. I think, too that the condemnation made here this evening by Deputy Desmond is one that casts a very serious reflection not only on the few members of local authorities, if there are such, who are and possibly were tempted under the old system, but also on the many others who conscientiously operated that system and can stand before anyone today and say they never accepted anything from anyone to make up their minds as to whom they should vote for.

I am amazed at some of the propositions coming particularly from the Fine Gael benches this evening in regard to their proposed amendment. On the one hand, they advocate that the only person suitable for this type of job would be someone who had a good local knowledge; in some cases he could be promoted from the local authority staff et cetera. They must be aware and should be aware that if this type of candidate were to be selected through the Local Appointments Commission, the Local Appointments Commission would have to be influenced. They must also know that the Minister has not got this power and that we take exceptional pride in that the Local Appointments Commission is not subject to influence and cannot be given the directive that has been indicated in supporting the amendment proposed by Fine Gael here this evening.

The only other course which is open in determining who should be appointed to these positions—and I agree with Fine Gael here—in order to ensure that the new rate collector is a man who has local knowledge, as he must have, and has the other attributes which are necessary in dealing with the public in his new responsibility, is to leave it to the county manager who would in turn set up an independent interview board as is done at present in the corporations and urban councils throughout the country. I think the system has operated very effectively in the urban councils and corporations that I am aware of and I would not be in the least afraid for the county councils under this Bill. It is strange that while the Opposition parties agree with this proposal and suggest that it is time to make the change, when the change is proposed to be made, the only reason the Government could have for it is that they have lost control of some of the local authorities. It is very hard to understand the logic behind that kind of attitude, that "we are in favour of it but if you do it, you are doing it for the wrong reason".

I commend this measure to the House. I think it is one which is necessary and which in the long run is the most meritorious way of deciding who should be rate collectors in any given area. I say that in the full knowledge of the fact that decisions taken by local authorities in the past were, to my knowledge, very responsible decisions and proved in the areas where they operated to be effective.

Mr. L'Estrange

I am certainly in favour of a change in the present system but I am against the Bill as introduced by the Minister because it again shows the double talk, the double thinking and the hypocrisy of the Minister and the Fianna Fáil Government. From day to day they do not know where they are going. They are shifting their feet and they are, as they say themselves, standing idly by.

The first we read about this matter was in the Irish Independent of September 23rd and I would like to quote from the Minister's words:

The Government has been considering the change for some time——

Mr. Molloy

They are not my words.

Mr. L'Estrange

It goes on:

The Minister for Local Government, Mr. Molloy, said last night that he had come to the conclusion that the job should be filled by the Local Appointments Commission as all other local authority posts were filled.

What has happened since?

Mr. Molloy

I never made that statement.

Mr. L'Estrange

The boys, the political hacks, the Tacateers in the party said "If you do that, we will not get the positions" and you know that, and the councillors you consulted came to you and said: "You are making a hell of a mistake. The Local Appointments Commission since the foundation of this State have done their job efficiently and honourably but we will not get the positions that way". You know that today those who differ from you, Fine Gael and Labour, control 21 out of 27 county councils in Ireland. You are getting roughly 20 per cent of the appointments but the real politicians in your party who are only interested in one thing, jobbery——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must not make allegations like that against Deputies.

Mr. L'Estrange

We are entitled to ask why the Minister has shifted his feet and why did Deputy Smith a short time ago praise the Local Appointments Commission. He seemed to be under the impression that they are to be appointed by the Local Appointments Commission. They are not. They are now to be appointed by a body which the county manager will set up, a commission of his own. It is a well known fact—and let us admit it—that 80 per cent of the county managers are Fianna Fáil. They would not be in the positions they are in if they were not. You take the telephone or somebody in the Custom House takes the telephone and whispers to all these people: "We want so and so appointed", and because these higher officials have got into the positions they are in today through their association with the Fianna Fáil Party, a Fianna Fáil rate collector will be appointed.

Mr. Molloy

Could I say something?

Mr. L'Estrange

And Gerry Fitt was quite correct recently when he talked about the Siamese Twins—the Fianna Fáil Party were equally as bad as the Unionist Party, and those who have differed from you for years have been treated as second-class citizens in this country.

Mr. Molloy

The statement which you have read out and which you allege was made by me was never made by me.

Mr. L'Estrange

You never contradicted it.

Mr. Molloy

It was never made by me.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Irish Independent of September 23rd, 1972—you have your officials there and they have never contradicted it. It is down there in black and white.

Mr. Molloy

I am contradicting it now.

Mr. L'Estrange

Ah, now—certainly, when the people better up in politics in the party than you thought about it. You may have been honest in this but——

Mr. Molloy

I never made that statement, and if some political correspondent in the Irish Independent, or some journalist who works for the Irish Independent, chooses to put words in my mouth which I did not say I cannot help it, but I cannot spend all my time chasing false statements and wasting my time when I would rather be doing positive work for the country.

Mr. L'Estrange

He must be a bit of a prophet, judging by the next paragraph and what is in the Minister's speech today. Let us see if we can find any difference in it.

Mr. Molloy

I never made that statement and whoever wrote it should correct it because he has written his own interpretation into a statement which came out through the Government Information Bureau.

Mr. L'Estrange

You have not done it. I will go on to quote the remainder.

Mr. Molloy

If the Irish Independent is the source of your truth, the rest of what you have to say may not be worth listening to because there is no truth in that part of it. The statement I issued went through the Government Information Bureau. If the Deputy can show me where I mentioned the Local Appointments Commission, I will concede the point but I never mentioned it.

Mr. L'Estrange

Why did you not correct this?

Mr. Molloy

I cannot be chasing every harum-scarum journalist who wants to write articles. We are fed up with it; we have it day after day.

Mr. L'Estrange

You got on well chasing, and more luck to you. You brought more back out of Cork than some of us did.

Mr. Molloy

I would agree with you there, but do not put words in my mouth which I never said.

Mr. L'Estrange

I am going to put other words in your mouth and we can see the difference between them and what is in the Irish Independent.

At present appointments to these posts are reserved by law to the elected members of county councils and in practice the selection of candidates is effected by ballot of the councillors. This invariably involved canvassing of the members by or on behalf of the candidate, thus placing the members in an invidious position.

If what they are publishing is wrong, we will read what you have said today. They must be great prophets if they were able two months ago to put into your mouth what you said today on this subject. The only difference is that you became a little wiser and you decided that you could not get your appointments if you went to the Local Appointments Commission, so you had to alter that portion of it. Let us see the similarity between what was in the Irish Independent and what was said today:

The arguments against the system are well known. A system of appointment made by votes of the elected members of local councils does not readily lend itself to the detailed procedures and controls which would ensure that selection is made on merit alone. As things now stand, there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures may be exerted on the elected members. The alleged abuses and malpractices which are reported in newspapers from time to time reflect no credit on the system and I think it is fair to say that the system has proved an embarrassment to councillors over the years.

Is that not exactly what is in the Minister's statement? There is very little difference and I want to know why you by inference reflect, or members of the Government—and the vast majority of them started off in local councils—reflect on councillors and members of local authorities and try to downgrade them? They are the unpaid servants of this country. We should give them credit. They do their jobs conscientiously and efficiently. Are the Government prepared to go the whole way? Will they ensure that there is no canvassing? Is it wrong for a judge to canvass members of the Fianna Fáil Cabinet? Is it all right for them to canvass but wrong for a person to canvass a local county councillor for a post as a rate collector? What is wrong? Why do chief superintendents seeking appointments canvass, with their wives, in different hotels throughout the land? Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses can canvass members of the Cabinet, Ministers, Parliamentary Secretaries and Deputies. Why is it right for such people to canvass and wrong that any individual should canvass a member of any county council? Will the Minister explain that? If he is not acting the hypocrite why does he not ensure that in future the judges, district justices, sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses cease canvassing?

Mr. Molloy

What has that to do with rate collectors?

Mr. L'Estrange

It has a good deal to do with them. I am trying to prove that this is just another bout of hypocrisy and is being done because you have failed to satisfy yourself by getting 80 to 100 per cent of the appointments in the local authorities.

I am a county councillor. The majority of county councillors would be glad to get rid of this system. It has proved a headache. One could make one friend and ten enemies. I defy the Minister to mention the Westmeath County Council. Our party and the Labour Party have controlled it between us for the last 35 years. We have not appointed a rate collector for 15 or 20 years. The rates are collected through the office at one-third of the cost of collecting them through rate collectors. Cork County Council, on which the Fianna Fáil Party are in the minority, are doing the same. In Kerry County Council, where Fianna Fáil are in the minority, the rates are collected through the office.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy is recommending putting people out of jobs.

Mr. L'Estrange

There are 78,000 people unemployed in this country at present.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

The less said by anybody from Tipperary about rate collectors the better. If there was corruption, it happened in Tipperary a few years ago where members of the Fianna Fáil Party kidnapped a member of the Opposition——

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Interruptions are disorderly.

Mr. Davern

On a point of order——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, order.

Mr. Davern

I ask Deputy L'Estrange to withdraw his remark because the two people concerned were acquitted in the courts. Will the Deputy withdraw the remark?

Mr. L'Estrange

Other people were acquitted and you and other members of the Fianna Fáil Party said they were guilty.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

They are still saying they were guilty. I know what happened. Tell me what was said about men who were charged here two years ago?

Mr. Davern

I have not heard Deputy L'Estrange withdrawing the remark.

Mr. L'Estrange

I have no intention of withdrawing what I have said because I know it to be quite true. A particular man was kidnapped.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are things happening in the House at the present moment that are of no credit to the House. The Chair is unable to keep track of the people shouting from various parts of the House. The only way to conduct business in the House is without interruption. Then the Chair will be able to deal with matters as they arise.

Mr. L'Estrange

I would prefer to see the rates collected through the office. I do not believe that anyone would be put out of employment because of that. There has been talk about corruption in so far as Fine Gael are concerned. Our policy was printed in 1965 and part of it was concerned with the prevention of corruption. In that document it was stated that Fine Gael believe that all public services should be administered and all public moneys expended in a completely impartial way and that national and local government should be brought under such control as to exclude all possibility of corruption, favouritism or political influence. Without prejudice to the future adoption of more general measures towards this, Fine Gael proposed to end the system of political appointments to certain posts. We were in favour of that policy then and we are still in favour of it. We still believe in a just society and that the people entitled to positions in this State should get them. Those who went before us set up the Local Appointments Commission. If the Minister was in earnest he would have appointments made by that commission. This would have proved to the House that the Minister was sincere in his outlook and that he wanted to put an end to corruption and favouritism. The Minister has gone away from his own words in the last two months.

I would prefer to see rates collected through the office. This is done in Westmeath at one-third of the cost of collection by rate collectors. If our ESB bills can be paid on demand and if rent can be paid on demand I cannot see why this principle should not apply to the collection of rates. I object to the words the Minister used. He stated that the ill-effects of the present system of appointments far outweighed any advantages which may be present. If the Minister believes that he is entitled to tell us about the ill-effects. Nobody knows more than Fianna Fáil about the abuse of this system. Is it not true that last year in Donegal a man who had not even the necessary qualifications and was turned down by the county manager was appointed as a rate collector by Fianna Fáil?

Mr. Molloy

That appointment was never sanctioned.

Mr. L'Estrange

I know that is what has been whispered to you. You were talking about corruption. So far as the people on this side of the House were concerned there was no corruption or malpractice. It is time that the Minister realised that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The practice of referring to "you" should be discontinued in the House. The Chair should be addressed. The Chair is not responsible for any of these things. The Chair will deal with all matters then.

Mr. L'Estrange

In conclusion, I wish to say that the time has come to rid this country of patronage and corruption. The Government should be sincere and say that they are prepared to cherish all the children of the nation equally. If they are prepared to do that, we will stand behind them. If they want to show they are in earnest they should have the rates collected through the offices or should have the appointments made by the Local Appointments Commission.

Mr. Davern

On a point of order, with regard to remarks passed by Deputy L'Estrange about a court judgment where the men charged with an offence were acquitted, is it in order for him to accuse them in this House of being guilty of that offence?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair cannot rule out the kind of political charges which Members make.

Mr. Davern

In other words, Deputy L'Estrange has no faith in our courts of justice and is using them as a mockery in this House?

Mr. Molloy

It is not the first time he made wild statements.

Mr. L'Estrange

Many of them have been proved to be true.

Mr. Molloy

Very few.

Mr. L'Estrange

What about the misappropriation of £100,000?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Donnellan.

Mr. Donnellan

I should like to make a small contribution on this Bill.

Mr. L'Estrange

Go back to Divilly in Oranmore and the land and tell us a little about that.

Mr. Molloy

There is nothing wrong with it.

An Leas-Cheann-Comhairle

Deputy Donnellan.

Mr. L'Estrange

You refused to do your duty. When it went up to you, you sent it back and told the county council what to do.

Mr. Molloy

So far as I know from the newspapers——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Interruptions are out of order from any side of the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

Did the appeal not come to you and you refused to deal with it?

Mr. Molloy

No.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If this disorder continues the Chair will adjourn the House. There will be no further interruptions.

Mr. Donnellan

I should like to make a contribution and I suppose some people will consider it to be completely irrelevant. I am sure the Minister will say it is.

Mr. Molloy

I am sure that the Chair will keep the Deputy in order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair hopes that it will be relevant to the Bill.

Mr. Donnellan

No matter what system of appointing rate collectors is adopted, it will be criticised by somebody. I think it should be done through an office system which has proved very successful in many counties. I should like to talk about the system of appointing rate collectors in County Galway adopted by the majority party there.

Mr. L'Estrange

Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister was a member of that local authority for quite a long time.

Mr. Molloy

That is right.

Mr. Donnellan

While he was a member of that local authority quite a number of rate collectors were appointed. One was the son of the Chairman of Galway County Council. Was that not political patronage? Many other rate collectors were appointed and the Minister knows as well as I do that in my time on Galway County Council—I was elected in 1967—only one rate collector was appointed who was not a political appointee. Every other one was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party. Fianna Fáil fought like dogs among themselves as to who they would elect, and they need not deny that.

Mr. Molloy

What does that prove?

Mr. Donnellan

If you were to check the present Fianna Fáil members of the Galway County Council and the previous Fianna Fáil members you would find that brothers, or sons, or family connections of those individuals hold the positions of rate collector in County Galway at the moment. The Minister is dead smart when he decides to change the system. Why is he changing it? Simply because the majority of the county councils are not now controlled by Fianna Fáil. He wants to introduce a system under which they can grab all the rate collectorships. The Minister cannot say he is introducing this new system to get away from political jobbery when he, as Minister for Local Government, can be associated with a scandal such as we have in Oranmore at the moment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot introduce a matter like that. It has nothing to do with the Bill.

Mr. Donnellan

It may not have anything to do with the Bill but it points out the type of man we have as Minister for Local Government and it points out the fact that the only reason he is changing the system is in an effort to ensure that, in future, all those appointed will be members of the Fianna Fáil Party. I want to speak about the rate collectors I know in my county, the rate collectors I have to fight at election time, and have fought successfully.

Mr. L'Estrange

Hear, hear.

Mr. Donnellan

They have to look after the register and, as far as I can see, they figure it out in such a way as is most advantageous to the political party which appointed them to their jobs. Members of this House who are familiar with the rate collectors in their own counties will know that hardly a day passes that we do not see some of them up here. They are in to this Minister, that Minister, or the other Minister. Their sole purpose—those appointed by Fianna Fáil—is to do active party work on behalf of that party. I am quite sure they were told in no uncertain terms: "If you get this job you will play your part for the party." They have done this successfully over the years. I cannot for one moment go along with a Minister such as the Minister we have here at the moment, as I said already, associated with a scandal similar to that in his own constituency at the moment——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not make allegations like that against the Minister.

Mr. Molloy

Especially when they are completely false and untrue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

They are not relevant.

Mr. Donnellan

They are not false. The Minister is not half way through it yet.

Mr. Molloy

I could forgive the Deputy a lot because usually he does not brief himself well, but I would not forgive him that type of statement.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us get back to this Bill which deals with rate collectors.

Mr. Donnellan

I would never ask the Minister to forgive me because it would mean so little to me. The point I stood up to make is that the only reason why the Minister is changing the system is to ensure that, under the new system which he proposes to introduce, and which we know they will push through the House by virtue of their numerical majority, all individuals who will be appointed in future as rate collectors will be appointed for their patronage in the past. They are told: "If you do not, you will never get a chance again." The Minister will use some kind of sanctions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davern.

Mr. E. Collins

On a point of order, I understood that Deputy Davern had already made his contribution.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davern asked a question and the Chair answered it.

Mr. E. Collins

He made a contribution.

Mr. Davern

Not only his skull is thick. I want to praise this legislation and to praise the old system too, with all its pitfalls. Remarks have been made here tonight about rate collectors and about various people who are good, honest men who do their job honestly and are above the sort of corruption and slanderous suggestions which have been made by Deputy L'Estrange and by Deputy Donnellan.

Mr. L'Estrange

It is in the Minister's own statement.

Mr. Davern

Are there no Fine Gael rate collectors?

Mr. Crowley

Three-quarters of them.

Mr. Davern

Who controls the local authorities? The bulk of them are Fine Gael.

Mr. Donnellan

That is why the system is being changed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No interruptions.

Mr. Davern

In South Tipperary, Fine Gael are the controlling party and with the help of Labour they appoint the rate collectors.

Mr. Donnellan

Why was the system not changed 20 years ago?

Mr. Davern

I have a few sticky little points to make which might make them blush and make Deputy L'Estrange eat his words and run out of the House. I challenge Deputy L'Estrange to repeat what he said outside the doors of Leinster House.

Mr. Begley

What a fool he would be.

Mr. Davern

What a fool he would be because he is telling direct lies and making slanderous remarks. He is at his Mickey Mouse politics, as he has been for the past couple of years.

Mr. L'Estrange

Who controls the Rock of Cashel?

Mr. Davern

Either he should shut up or repeat these allegations outside. He knows he is telling lies.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not use the phrase "telling lies".

Mr. Davern

He is uttering mis-truths.

Mr. L'Estrange

Why did a Fianna Fáil Attorney General bring these people to court if he did not believe the charges to be true?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would Deputy L'Estrange please resume his seat?

Mr. L'Estrange

It is very difficult in court to prove conspiracy.

Mr. Davern

It has been suggested here tonight that we dismiss rate collectors, men with families——

Deputies

Nobody said that.

Mr. Davern

That has been advocated. Regarding the payment of rates through a bank, are we not to have any regard for those who may not be able to settle in full in one payment? Up to now these people have had the benefit of understanding rate collectors who permitted them to pay by way of instalments.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

Many county councils accept payment by instalments.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has warned the House already in regard to interruptions. If there are people here who cannot listen to a Deputy without interrupting, I would advise them to leave the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

We must give tit for tat.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is entitled to maintain order in the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

I agree, but it is a difficult job to do.

Mr. Davern

In defence of the present rate collectors, be they Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour, the majority of them are decent, understanding men in the matter of the collection of rates.

Mr. L'Estrange

Earlier we were told that the majority are Fine Gael supporters.

Mr. Davern

I am referring to rate collectors, irrespective of their party affiliations. However, if they are Fianna Fáil, they are proud to be such. There was a reference to county managers being appointed on the basis of their affiliation to Fianna Fáil but if one were to go through the list, one would find that many of them belong to another party.

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy seems to have them listed.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Molloy

Deputy Donnellan should be careful or we will go back to the Corrib drainage. Who created the biggest political jobbery in this country? It was created by the inter-party Government at the time of that scheme. The people of Galway have not forgotten that and many generations will have passed before it will be forgotten.

Mr. E. Collins

The Minister is being disorderly.

Mr. L'Estrange

He is dabbling in dirty waters.

Mr. Molloy

We know who dirtied them. They are the party of political jobbery.

Mr. Donnellan

When Deputy Molloy visited there on the 4th of December, 1964, he got his answer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is contributing to disorder in the House. The Chair has no wish to adjourn the House but if Deputies continue in this fashion, I will have no option but to do so.

Mr. E. Collins

Let us hear from the manager of the Rock of Cashel.

Mr. Davern

In the remarks being passed by Fine Gael there is an admission of defeat in that they will never have a Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Donnellan

The remarks passed by the Minister are all right.

Mr. Molloy

The truth hurts.

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister will get the truth if he wishes to hear it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davern.

Mr. Davern

Deputy L'Estrange has accused two men who were acquitted in court of the charges brought against them but let him have the courage to make these accusations outside the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Attorney General and the chief superintendent of the area brought them to court but a Tipperary jury were responsible for having them acquitted and half of the jurors were Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Davern

If Deputy L'Estrange wishes to be honest to himself and to his party, I would ask him to repeat these allegations outside in the presence of a witness. Of course, he will never do that because, as usual, he will not have the courage to do so. No doubt, the two gentlemen concerned would be anxious to take him up on what he has said. I have never known a county manager to impose his political views on anyone. Certainly, it has never happened in Tipperary where we have had county managers from the various parties down through the years.

I would defend the right to keep rate collectors in their jobs. They are rendering a good service and are very helpful in the matter of collecting rates. In many cases they apply for a relief of rates in respect of people who may be in financial difficulties and this is usually done before politicians ever hear of such cases. If Fine Gael have no confidence in the people they have appointed in many areas, let them stand down from office and not make such appointments in future.

Mr. Donnellan

Who is changing the system?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davern.

Mr. Davern

From where does the majority vote come in the appointment of rate collectors in south Tipperary? In conclusion I appeal again to Deputy L'Estrange to repeat his allegations outside.

Mr. Begley

At this stage I appeal strongly to the Minister to accept the Fine Gael proposal whereby the appointment of rate collectors would be a matter for the Local Appointments Commission. Perhaps the Minister did not intend it, but he has cast a reflection on local authorities and that reflection is the inference that the councillors would bend if there was unreasonable pressure.

Mr. Molloy

I never said that.

Mr. Begley

This is my reading of it.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy may read what he wishes into it. I am relieving councillors of having to make these appointments.

Mr. Begley

The Minister said that as matters stand now there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures. What does that mean? He says that unreasonable pressure may be exerted on elected members. The implication I take from that is that if certain pressures were brought to bear on county councillors, for instance, financial inducement, the promise of a new car or, perhaps, of a greyhound pup, the integrity of the councillors would be shattered and that they might yield to the temptation.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 22nd November, 1972.