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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 1972

Vol. 264 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 34: Lands.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £4,447,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1973, for the salaries and expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission.

In line with the agreed procedure adopted for the last few years, I propose to take the Votes for Lands and Forestry together this year also. Accordingly, in my opening remarks I shall refer to Votes 34 and 35 and at the conclusion of the debate the motion in respect of Vote 34 will be put to the House. Vote 35 will then be formally moved.

The Lands Vote this year shows a net increase of £251,000 compared with last year. I shall commence by explaining the salient features of this Estimate, especially those items which reflect a significant change from last year's provision, and continue with a review of the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March, last.

Provision for salaries, wages and allowances is made under subhead A. The amount provided for this year represents an increase of £250,000 on last year's provision. This figure, in fact, is about £100,000 in excess of the actual amount required, because of over-estimation due to uncertainty in relation to the extent of salary increases then under negotiation. It has been arranged that £100,000 of this amount will be applied to the purposes of subhead G.

Subhead B1 relates for the most part to travelling and subsistence expenses incurred in connection with the inspection, survey and allotment of lands under the Land Acts. The increase of £20,720 is due to an increase granted in the rates for subsistence and travelling expenses, increased costs in connection with the computer and anticipated heavier outlay on miscellaneous items and advertisements.

Subhead B2 provides for direct payment to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for all services rendered by that Department; this has now become standard procedure. The total amount required this year is £111,500.

The moneys required under subhead D are in the nature of statutory commitments. In the main they represent the taxpayers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt accumulated, since 1923, on both tenanted and untenanted land. The total contribution this year, viz. £1,459,500, constitutes one of the biggest items in the Vote and represents nearly one-third of the entire net Estimate. Of the total subhead provision, some £1,287,000 will be utilised to make good deficiencies in the land bond fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933. Indeed, the overall increase of £86,000 in the subhead this year is attributable mainly to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees as land settlement proceeds. All allottees in congested areas, together with migrants and displaced employees getting holdings in non-congested areas, get the benefit of the halving of annuities.

Subhead G is in four separate parts. I think I can best deal with it by referring to each part individually. The funds being provided this year under subheads G.1 and G.2 amount in all to £135,000. This represents a reduction of £40,000 on last year's provision which is attributable to the prevailing pressure on Exchequer funds.

Subhead G.1 involves two items, viz., the purchase of land by the Land Commission for cash in the open market and the provision of life annuities under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965. Section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, provided basic authority for the scheme of life annuities for elderly, incapacitated or blind persons who voluntarily sell their interest in land to the Land Commission. This scheme and the scheme for self-migration loans to which I shall refer later on were brought into operation early in 1967. The objective of the life annuity scheme was to facilitate land structure reform by encouraging elderly, incapacitated or blind farmers to retire so that their lands might become available for active farming by younger able-bodied persons. This scheme has had but little success and just now the position is that we have 35 persons on the life annuity payroll following the sale of their lands to the Land Commission.

Subhead G (2) stems from section 5 of the Land Act, 1965, in which resides authority for the scheme enabling the Land Commission to make loans to progressive farmers in congested areas for the purchase of viable farms of their choice, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission for land settlement purposes. This, in fact, is really a banking or credit service, with an overall limit of £10,000 in each case, including the price paid for the owner's old holding, and is intended to augment existing land settlement schemes. The primary objective of the scheme is to facilitate the Land Commission programme of land structure reform in the scheduled congested areas, as defined in the 1965 Act— Counties Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, and parts of Clare and West Cork. The scheme is intended to encourage initiative by providing necessary capital, through the Land Commission, to enable progressive smallholders in the scheduled congested areas to improve their status by purchase in the open market of viable farms suitable to individual requirements, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission as part of the loan arrangements.

Under the scheme, a total of 158 applications has been received to a recent date. Of these, 155 have been investigated and, perhaps not surprisingly, a high proportion failed at an early stage—chiefly because the applicants and/or their lands were considered unsuitable for purposes of the scheme. In all, 61 applications progressed to the price negotiation stage and, in 11 of these case, agreement on price was, in fact, reached.

This is a vital stage in the procedure as price agreement is an essential prerequisite to acceptance of an applicant and to making him an advance under the scheme. It is only when agreement on price has been reached with a landowner, that he knows the extent of financial assistance which he may expect from the Land Commission, thus enabling him to shop around for a suitable new farm, on the basis of what he will receive for his own holding, plus the amount of loan available to him.

Of the 11 cases in which price agreement was reached nine have been provided with self migration advances and have now gone into possession of their new holdings; in one other case the necessary legal formalities are being completed and in the remaining case the Land Commission are awaiting proposals from the approved applicant regarding the new farm selected by him and the amount of loan he will require.

The nine completed cases—for which advances and free grants totalling approximately £40,038 were made by the Land Commission—have provided an area of 373 acres for land settlement. The holdings purchased by these nine successful applicants contain in aggregate 980 acres. The other two cases involve the Land Commission in a potential maximum commitment of some £18,476 by way of advances and free grants and, if these transactions can be successfully concluded, they will release a further aggregate area of about 82 acres for the land reform programme.

The results from this scheme to date are not impressive, even allowing for the fact that the scheme is restricted to landowners in the scheduled congested areas and that approved applicants are allowed a period of 12 months in which to shop around for new holdings.

The intention had been to review this scheme to see how its attractiveness might be improved. In any event, a maximum of £10,000 is no longer realistic; in the current period of escalating land prices it just could not buy a viable holding. In the event the proposed review has been overtaken by developments in relation to the EEC and now falls to be considered in that context. I shall have more to say on the life annuity scheme and the self-migration loans scheme when I come to deal with the policy of the Land Commission under EEC conditions.

Subhead G (3) provides £6,000 for payment in cash of compensation for tenancy interests resumed on the small outstanding residue of Congested Districts Board estates.

The fourth and final part of the subhead relates to the payment by the Land Commission of auctioneers' commission on relevant purchases of land for cash and land bonds. Perhaps I should explain here that up to 1963 the practice was to pay auctioneers' commission only in respect of lands purchased by the Land Commission for cash under section 27 of the Land Act, 1950. This was extended in 1963 to properties purchased on a voluntary basis for land bonds and to uncontested compulsory cases where the auctioneer renders positive service towards agreement. The extension of payment of commission on the lines indicated proved a decided incentive to auctioneers to offer lands on their books to the Land Commission thus facilitating an acceleration in land acquisition.

Subhead H provides the funds for payment of gratuities pursuant to section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on estates taken over by the Land Commission for distribution. Last year gratuities totalling £12,270 were paid to 25 ex-employees—and average of £490 each. Perhaps I should emphasise that displaced employees who are deemed competent to work land are automatically considered for allotments—indeed, this is only right and proper—but, where they are not found to be suitable for allotments, they are considered by the Land Commission for a cash gratuity, depending on such factors as length of service, personal and family circumstances, availability of alternative employment and so on. It is difficult to make an accurate forecast of commitments under the subhead in any particular year because this depends on the level of acquisition activity and the extent to which estate workers become displaced from employment through these activities. A figure of £12,000 is provided for the current year.

Subhead I provides the funds required to meet the cost of the various estate improvement works which are such an important feature of land settlement. These works include the erection of dwellinghouses and out-offices; the provision of access roads; fencing and drainage; provision of water supply for domestic and stock requirements; turbary development; repair and maintenance of embankments. These are all costly works and expenditure for last year totalled £917,427 including £520,810 on building works.

Some 273 men were employed on the various improvements works and their wage bill amounted to almost £295,000. For the current financial year the amount proposed under subhead I is £954,905.

Reference has previously been made to an important development which has been undertaken by the Land Commission in relation to lands earmarked for migrants and also lands intended for distribution to tenants whose holdings are being rearranged. All such lands are now being rehabilitated prior to allotment—the rehabilitation consisting of lime and fertiliser application. In addition, the Land Commission are also doing the preliminary reclamation work on these lands—such as drainage, removal of scrub, eradication of rushes and so on. The aim is to give these allottees the best possible start on their holdings. The major portion of the cost involved is being borne direct by the Land Commission —a small proportion being charged to the allottee by means of an addition to his annuity.

Improvements in designs for houses and out-offices being built by the Land Commission are being sought constantly. As Deputies are, no doubt, aware dwellinghouses provided by the Land Commission are fully serviced as to water supply and electricity, where practicable. The new designs for dwellinghouses to which I referred in my opening statement last year are now well established and in general use. They have been well tried and have won general approval. Many progressive features have been added to fit in with modern needs and trends. Improvements include greatly increased storage space and a utility room which can be used as a fourth bedroom to provide extra accommodation as the family expands and, all in all, the houses lack none of the amenities of urban dwellings.

In addition, yard areas have also been increased and black topping of yards, approach roads and access roads is now being undertaken as a standard feature of improvement works associated with the provision of buildings on new holdings. Changes in farming methods involving more intensive stocking rates and self-feed lay-outs have necessitated new basic designs of out-offices which will give greater freedom of adaptation to individual users. In the siting of out-offices increased emphasis is being placed on the necessity to reduce pollution hazards. Experimental examples of the new types are in course of construction.

The sub-item entitled "Housing Loans" refers to the scheme under which advances are made to farmers to supplement grants from the Departments of Local Government for the erection of new houses and for reconstruction work on existing houses. During the year ended 31st March, 1972, the total amount sanctioned by way of loans for this purpose was £31,000 to some 70 applicants. In this connection Deputies will be already aware that in July of this year following an examination of the scheme under which these loans are made, I decided to increase the maximum loan towards the erection of a new dwellinghouse or the reconstruction of an existing one from £500 to £750. I feel sure that this substantial increase in the amount of loan which the Land Commission may provide will be welcomed by Deputies. The management services unit continue to produce significant savings. The work study section of the unit, through method improvements and the incentive bonus scheme, contributed to maintaining a very high level of productivity on outdoor works.

I have dealt in some detail with the more important sub-heads of the Lands Vote. The remaining items do not seem to call for specific comment, but I shall, of course, be pleased to supply further information on any matter in which Deputies are especially interested. I propose now to continue by reviewing the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. In some instances the statistics are still provisional but they are unlikely to vary to any significant extent from the final returns. The overall results are quite satisfactory.

On the acquisition side, the aggregate area inspected during the year was 33,000 acres while the total intake of land amounted to about 23,000 acres. The total area in the acquisition machine at 31st March, 1972, amounted to some 73,000 acres.

As regards land settlement for the year the total area allotted amongst 1,700 allottees was 25,000 acres. The acreage distributed included the provision of 47 fully-equipped holdings for migrants and the re-arrangement of 390 fragmented holdings. In all, 69 new dwellinghouses and 67 new out-offices were provided for tenants and allottees during the year. The vesting of holdings and allotments was continued and about 3,450 holdings, parcels and rights of turbay were dealt with. Tenanted land—including residues of CDB estates—outstanding for vesting at 31st March, 1972, comprised approximately 3,200 holdings. These residual holdings, situated for the most part in western congested counties, now represent the remaining hard core of difficult tenanted land cases and their release for vesting is at present getting special attention.

The position as regards collection of land annuities continues satisfactory. Out of a collectable total of £2,871,822 for the year, the amount actually collected by 31st March, 1972, was £2,757,483.

I should like to refer here to a campaign which was initiated by the Land Commission in the year under review for the redemption of quit rents, tithe rent charges and some other charges payable to the Church Temporalities Branch. Very generous terms of redemption were offered. In the case of the quit rents the number of years' purchase was reduced for 12 years to five years and this latter figure also applied to tithe rent charges, et cetera, the redemption prices of which were previously calculated variously at 22, 24 and 25 years' purchase. Eighty per cent of these rents have been redeemed to date, and there are now only 851 accounts remaining out of a total of 4,498 accounts at the beginning of the campaign. The rental has been reduced from £10,012 to £1,977. I believe that the remaining payers should avail themselves of the very advantageous terms offered to cease payments which would otherwise continue to be paid in perpetuity.

In regard to group farming, the Land Commission are continuing to keep the Grennanstown project, which was inaugurated last year, under close study and, in addition, two other such projects—one in County Cork and one in County Kildare—are at the planning stage.

As Deputies know, a system of direct control by the Land Commission over the purchase of rural land by persons who are not "qualified persons"—principally non-nationals— has been in operation since 1965. The position generally is that no interest in non-urban land can vest in a person who does not come within the categories of "qualified person" as defined in section 45 (1) of the Act except with the written consent of the Land Commission. In general, permission is not granted to non-nationals to purchase land in order to engage simply in those forms or lines of production commonly practised by our farmers; "white-elephant" properties unable or unlikely to attract Irish purchasers in the market could be entertained for sale to outsiders. A non-national who could illustrate that he was going in for some special line with expertise and capital to back it up, and with export possibilities could very well be acceptable. During the past year—apart from what might be called unobjectionable transactions, for example, those (a) arising solely from mortgage interests, (b) involving areas not exceeding five acres, and (c) representing transfers between one non-citizen, individual or company, and another— the total acreage in respect of which the consent of the Land Commission, pursuant to section 45 of the Act, was given to the vesting of interests in land in non-qualified persons as individuals, or companies controlled by non-citizens, was 3,086 acres. A substantial proportion of the acreage involved consisted of the types of property which could hold no attraction for the ordinary Irish purchaser.

As the House will recall, the question of the right of nationals of one member state of the EEC to purchase land in another member state was discussed exhaustively last March in the debate on the motion on EEC membership. It is most unlikely that the draft directive granting full right of establishment on land which is now before the Council since 1969 will be adopted before our accession. Accordingly, its adoption will be the subject of examination by the enlarged Council in which case we will have a full vote as a member of the Community. In this event our ministerial representative can be relied upon to ensure that our special interests are taken fully into account having regard to our need to maintain sufficient control over the disposal of land in Ireland to enable us to pursue policies to deal with our structural problem.

And now I come to the implications of EEC membership in so far as the land structural reform programme is concerned. In April last the Council of Ministers of the EEC adopted a series of measures of agricultural structural refrom which will apply to the Community as a whole and to the applicant countries when they become members. Schemes are at present in course of formulation by my Department in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for the implementation of these measures in this country.

There are three dominant features in these proposed measures. First, their ultimate purpose in relation to those farmers who intend to continue as farmers is to ensure that for the future their conditions both as to income and quality of life will be comparable with the conditions in non-agricultural employment in the same area. The second important feature to note is that the proposed measures are entirely voluntary; it will be for each individual farmer to make up his own mind as to whether or not he wants to participate in any of these agricultural structural reform schemes. The final matter for special notice is that measures are now being provided to ensure that those farmers who wish to give up farming can do so under the best possible conditions.

The measures with which my Department will be chiefly concerned relate to the provision of such additional land as is required for those small farmers who adopt development plans and to implementing the scheme providing cash benefits for those small farmers, particularly the elderly, who for one reason or another wish to give up farming. The farmer with the development plan will be able to get substantial reductions on the interest on investments needed to execute the plan; he will get assistance to keep accounts while the plan is being carried through and he will have priority in the allocation of lands becoming available for distribution if he requires more land. Rural Deputies will know, of course, that progressive small farmers do at present get priority from the Land Commission in the allocation of land in their localities. The new system will simply copper-fasten this since in the new dispensation the progressive farmer will have the evidence of his development plan to put before the Land Commission. Clearly, the successful implementation of this scheme will require the closest possible co-ordination of effort on the part of the Land Commission and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

The proposed aids to those who wish to leave farming and give up their lands for the benefit of those with development plans comprise the price of the land, or the annual rent if they wish to lease, a bonus and, if they are between 55 and 65, an annual indemnity. I will have some further words to say about this indemnity later. Provision is also made for the payment of an annual indemnity to permanent hired workers and family helpers aged between 55 and 65 who are employed on farms sold or leased under this scheme. I have already said that our pension scheme for elderly farmers authorised by section 6 of the 1965 Land Act has had but little success. This may be due, in part anyway, to the fact that the inducements offered were inadequate, but I suspect that a very significant contributory cause is the exceptional attachment to land that exists in our countryside and my personal view is that this will not change overnight. The inducements offered under the EEC scheme represent a very big advance on our terms and may be sufficiently generous to ensure a considerable measure of success.

The full cost of these structural measures will not have to be borne by the State as substantial refunds towards the cost will be made available from the European Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund. These refunds will cover part of the rebates on interest given to farmers for investment, part of the cost of keeping accounts and part of the cost of land consolidation schemes. Under the criteria laid down by the EEC it appears that the major portion of the country will qualify for a 65 per cent refund of the cost of the indemnity.

Before I finish with this I feel it is essential for me to controvert publicly and decisively two serious misconceptions about this EEC scheme which are fairly widespread in this country and which are trotted out regularly by commentators in the Press and on Radio and TV. The first one relates to the indemnity payable to elderly farmers who surrender their lands under the EEC scheme. It is being said frequently that the EEC stipulate a minimum indemnity of about £250 for a single man and of about £375 for a married man. This is not so. The directive does not lay down any specific amount for the indemnity. All they say is that the chargeability of the indemnity to EEC funds will be limited to a figure of about £250 in the case of a single man and about £375 for a married man. It has also been said that the EEC will subvent this indemnity to the tune of £250 for a single man and £375 for a married man. This, too, is entirely incorrect. What the EEC will do is to refund 25 per cent or up to 65 per cent in handicapped areas of a maximum of £250 in the case of a single man and £375 in the case of a married man. Here are some examples to illustrate precisely what the EEC subvention will be. Suppose a member State gives an indemnity of £200 a year for a married man, in that case the EEC will give 25 per cent or 65 per cent as the case may be of that £200. Suppose the member State's indemnity is £375, then, again, the EEC will give similar percentages of that amount. But suppose the member State gives an indemnity of £600, then all the EEC will give is 25 per cent or 65 per cent of £375 which is the maximum amount to which they will subvent. I hope everyone will understand this and I trust that commentators will adopt this correct version forthwith. I assure them that what I have said is authoritative.

The second misconception is that a father who transfers his farm to his son will be eligible for the benefits, bonus, indemnity, et cetera, available under the EEC scheme. Quite definitely this is not so. Lands surrendered by a farmer under the scheme must be allocated to a farmer with an approved development plan or for general purposes of structural reform. The farmer merely transferring his lands to his son is not fulfilling the basic conditions of the scheme. Quite categorically I say that he does not come under the scheme. The only instance where such a transaction would come under the scheme is where the son was a farmer in his own right and had adopted a development plan which, for its successful implementation, needed the provision of additional land. I hope I have made the position quite clear in this matter also.

These and other aspects of the proposed measures involve a fairly drastic reappraisal of the current operation and policy of the Land Commission; this work is being pressed forward urgently at the present time. At the same time, one has to be realistic and say straight that land alone will not solve the difficulties of problem rural areas; it would be quite unrealistic to depend upon land to do so. For that reason I personally welcome the regional development fund proposed at the October summit meeting in Paris in so far as it is aimed at the correction of the main regional imbalances and particularly those resulting from the preponderance of agriculture.

I am also pleased to note that in this afternoon's paper further direct proposals in this regard have been made and published. I welcome them.

Turning to the Forestry Vote I am happy to inform the House that after a lapse of six years the planting programme in the State forests was restored in 1971-72 to 25,000 acres or 10,000 hectares. It is proposed to plant a further 25,000 acres in the current planting season and to continue at that rate in future years. The completion of this season's programme will extend the area of State plantations to 592,130 acres or 239,632 hectares.

The total net provision for forestry for 1972-73 is £7,499,000, an increase of £882,000 over the 1971-72 provision. The original Forestry Estimate for 1971-72 at £6,387,000 was increased by a grant of £230,000 from the Vote for Remuneration. Any further references which I shall make to the 1971-72 Estimate are on this basis. The increase of £882,000 stems from increased provision for wages and salaries of some £550,000 arising mainly from the impact of pay increases and additional provision of £260,000 for land acquisition. The balance arises from provision for additional materials and increased costs of services partly offset by £120,000 expected increase in income from sales of timber.

The following is the position regarding the individual subheads:—

Subhead A—Salaries, wages and allowances—at £1,873,000 shows an increase of £109,750 over the provision for 1971-72. The increase is mainly due to the effect of pay increases and some increase in staff numbers.

Subhead B.1—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—at £385,000 shows an increase of £94,500 over the 1971-72 provision due mainly to increased travelling and subsistence rates and computer rental.

Subhead B.2—Post Office Services —at £69,000 shows a decrease of £47,100 on the 1971-72 Estimate. The reduction is due to decreased Post Office charges for handling of stores, partly offset by an increase in the cost of postage and the extension of forest telephone services.

Subhead C.1—This is the grant-in-aid for acquisition of land. The balance remaining in the fund at the 1st April, 1972, was £231,992. I am providing in this estimate a sum of £720,000 so that the total sum available for land acquisition in the current year is £951,992.

The gross areas acquired in 1970-71 and 1971-72 were 34,436 acres and 37,471 acres respectively. Deputies will be aware that there has been a very steep rise in agricultural land values and this, to some extent, reflects the prices which must be paid for land for forestry. Price agreement for the purchase of land for forestry is becoming increasingly difficult to achieve and a trend towards a slower rate of closing sales has also developed. In these circumstances it is very difficult to predict future acquisition prospects but the problems involved are being kept under constant review. Incidentally, the gross area acquired in 1971-72 is the largest achieved in any year to date.

Subhead C.2—Forest Development and Management—this is the main expenditure subhead in this Vote. The major provisions in the subhead relate to the raising of nursery stock in the State forest nurseries, the establishment costs of all new plantations including ground preparation and fencing, road and bridge construction, the development of facilities for public recreation in our forests, the purchase and maintenance of all forest machinery and the hire of suitable machinery from outside sources, the general cost of maintaining and protecting all our existing acreage of forest plantations, and finally the cost of such timber felling and conversion as we undertake by direct labour in our forests.

The estimate of £5,289,000 shows an overall increase of £587,500 on the provision for 1971-72 and this arises largely from the cost of wage increases. Despite the extension of the planting programme to 25,000 acres and the fact that in the course of the last year the working week of forest workers has been reduced by one and a half hours, it has been found possible, as a result of more economic use of the forest labour, to fulfil our programmes within the limits of the existing forest work force. I should stress that the rapid rise in wage and other costs has made it essential, if timber is to be produced economically in our forests, that efforts be continued to secure reductions in the cost of State forest operations.

Under the heading of new roads and buildings provision is being made for some increase in the level of activity provided for last year. Provision is also being made for the replacement and maintenance of mechanical equipment for forest development and management. Increased charges under the heading of general forest management arise from the annual increase in the planted area which must be maintained. That area on 31st March, 1972, was 567,420 acres.

The timber conversion head provides for our own activities in direct felling of thinnings and other material as well as our normal requirements of timber for Departmental purposes and the maintenance of our production programme of transmission poles for the ESB and Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

The provision for amenity and recreation at £128,000 shows an increase of £32,000 on the 1971-72 provision and under this head Deputies will be fully aware that the "open forest" policy has had a most enthusiastic welcome from the public and from public representatives. Some 300 forests in all parts of the country are now open to the public and in almost half of these basic amenities such as car parking and picnicking facilities have been provided. There is only one condition that I have attached to this— that entry will be, for the most part, on foot only—vehicular traffic being restricted to the car parks or entrance lay-bys. I think Deputies will agree that there should be no apology for this, and indeed all evidence points to the fact that the public at large appreciate the embargo.

Among the Forest Park projects the most ambitious has been that at Lough key, County Roscommon, a joint development between my Department and Bord Fáilte, where visitor count has already reached 150,000 per annum. The final stage of development work will be concluded this year with the completion of the lakeshore building complex, and Deputies will be interested to know that the demands for berthage at the harbour area have been such as to necessitate an extension of the harbour facilities.

Currently the caravan/camping area, the shop and the launch service for visitors are each operated on a concession basis, and I expect that the restaurant and a boat-hire concession will be in operation next season. A park booklet has recently been produced to add to the growing number of publications by the Forest and Wildlife Service so, all in all, Lough Key is fully measuring up to expectations and has already a focal point for day visitor and holiday maker alike.

Before moving on from the amenity aspect of the forests, I should like to mention that among the major developments currently in hand are Ards, County Donegal and Avondale, County Wicklow, both of which will be in the forest park category. Other areas scheduled for similar development are Currahchase, County Limerick and Rossmore, County Monaghan.

Subhead C.3 — Sawmilling — at £68,000 shows an increase of £8,450 on the 1971-72 Estimate due to wage increases which are partly offset by a saving on replacement costs under the heading of running expenses.

Subhead D—In introducing the Forestry Estimate for 1971-72, I indicated that there was general agreement that this subhead D, which provides for grants for planting carried out by private persons, was in need of revision and that I hoped we would complete the review of the whole scheme before coming to the House with this year's Estimate. This review was carried out within the last 12 months and I am happy to take this opportunity of informing the House of a revised and improved scheme of grants for private planting.

The main features of the revised scheme are as follows:—First, the grant for private planting has been raised from £20 per acre to £35 per acre. The sum will be payable in two instalments—the first instalment of £20 on establishment of the plantation and a second instalment of £15 after a period of seven years, subject to satisfactory maintenance.

Secondly, it has been represented to me that there are throughout the country fairly substantial areas of land eminently suitable for the growth of high quality timber but which the owners are reluctant to plant because it is covered with scrub, the clearance cost of which would be very substantial. Scrub, by the way, may be defined as brushwood or woody vegetation such as rhododendron, laurel or stunted hardwood tree species incapable of producing a satisfactory tree crop.

It is proposed to seek to bring these lands into production by offering an additional grant, which will be payable on a scaled basis of up to a maximum of £20 per acre in any one case, as a contribution to the net cost of such clearance. By the net cost I mean the cost of clearance of the scrub less any sums received by the grantee in respect of the material cleared from them. It is not my intention that this grant should be available indefinitely; my hope is that all such areas will be brought into production fairly soon and for this reason I propose to limit this grant to the next five planting seasons beginning with the current season, 1972-73.

Thirdly, by way of encouraging the planting of more hardwoods it is proposed to pay an additional grant of £5 per acre with the second instalment of planting grant if it is clear that a hardwood crop of acceptable species is intended by the grower and is feasible also. I should make it clear that, in effect, this proposal does not mean that, in order to qualify for the additional grant, a planter would have to plant an entire hardwood crop. It will be quite satisfactory from the Department's point of view if the number of hardwood trees established on such areas is sufficient to form the ultimate crop and there will be no objection to the initial crop being a mixture of hardwoods and conifers.

Finally, the grant for the block planting of poplar is being increased from £15 to £25 per acre payable as to £15 on establishment and £10 after seven years, subject to satisfactory maintenance. In this connection I should say that a grant for line planting of poplar which has been in operation for a number of years and which just did not "take on" is being discontinued

These revised grants will be paid in respect of any planting undertaken in the current season, that is, 1972-73. Provision under this head of £25,000 is the same as for last year but the estimate was made prior to completion of study on the need for revised grants. In fact, in recent years the provision under this head has not been fully expended and it is expected that this sum will be sufficient to meet any increased costs arising in the present year. While the revisions proposed are substantial, I think it only fair to repeat that revision of the grant was overdue and that, in my view, adjustments of this order were needed to give impetus to planting by private persons. It is my hope that the improvements now settled, coupled with the novel features of grants for a scrub clearance and for the planting of hardwoods will have the desired effect on activities in this sector.

With regard to subhead E, Forestry Education, a chronic shortage of foresters over the past decade or so has been largely eliminated and the training programme for foresters has been gradually moved down from an output of 27 last year to 21 this year and 16 next year. An intake of the order of 12 to 15 per annum is likely to meet our requirements for the future. A full examination has been carried out of our arrangements for training our foresters and of the curriculum in our schools. As a result new training arrangements have been provided. The new arrangements provide for an 18 month period in Kinnitty, a year on field training in selected forests and six months revision in Avondale during the winter period. These developments made Shelton Abbey surplus to our requirements and, as Deputies will be aware, the premises have been transferred to the Department of Justice and are now in fact occupied and in use by that Department. While some savings will accrue from the reduction of trainee numbers, these are largely offset by salary and allowance increases and increasing food costs and the sum of £54,000 provided for this subhead shows little change.

Subhead F, John F. Kennedy Park, at £46,000 shows an increase of £14,000 on the provision for 1971-72, due to wage increases and an increase in development costs. Arrangements are being made for the extension of the arboretum over the area within the park formerly reserved for a horticultural college.

Subhead G, £94,000, relates to game development and management. This year's provision represents an increase of some £13,000, mainly to meet rising costs. Grants made to regional game councils towards their game development schemes are the major element of the subhead. These schemes are formulated and implemented in consultation with the Department's advisory staff and include such items as re-stocking programmes, habitat improvement, predator control and so on. The subhead also includes some financial assistance for tourist projects, that is, shoot facilities for visiting sportsmen, sponsored jointly by my Department and Bord Fáilte. In addition, expenditure incurred on the development of game resources within State forests and some other minor expenses are defrayed from this subhead.

The past year also saw some badly-needed improvements in connection with the game development programme generally. In particular, a significant improvement was made in the time-schedule for the handling of the regional game councils' schemes, thereby giving councils early notice of the nature and extent of the financial assistance which would be available to them. More recently, the advisory staff has been strengthened with a view to giving councils a better service.

Another step forward has been the earlier appearance of the Game Birds Protection Orders prescribing the open seasons for game shooting and defining sanctuary areas.

As I have already indicated, my Department and Bord Fáilte cooperate in stimulating the provision of shooting facilities for visiting sportsmen, with of course, due regard for the interests of our own people. Grants are provided to support projects catering for out-of-State "guns" and every effort is made to ensure that the highest standards of sportsmanship are maintained. I am very conscious of the necessity for adequate system of control in this sector, not merely in the interests of harmony with our own sportsmen but also to ensure that the efforts being put into game development and conservation generally are not impaired by indiscriminate shooting on the part of visitors.

Subhead H is a grant-in-aid to finance a comprehensive national programme for conservation. A further £100,000 is being put into the subhead this year, compared with £150,000 last year. Deputies will be aware from the Book of Estimates that expenditure under this subhead is not confined to the Forest and Wildlife Service and indeed, as I have previously indicated, a substantial allocation from it will be available for the establishment by the Department of Education of a field study centre in County Donegal.

Activity by my Department in the field of wildlife conservation during the past year centred to a large extent on wetlands of significance to wildfowl and waders. Under the Game Birds Protection Order, 1972, eight new sanctuaries were declared during the year, bringing the total number of such places to 26, which represents a significant advance on this front in the recent past. Some of these sanctuaries are on properties owned by my Department and, in these cases, for example, at Portumna Forest, County Galway and Lissadell, County Sligo, development works which will exploit their potential for public amenity, education and enjoyment are already in progress.

Work continued during the past year on our major national wildfowl refuge at the North Slob, Wexford, where the main emphasis is on conservation of the very high population of Greenland whitefronted geese which winter there. However, unexpected difficulties have arisen regarding the provision of some essential buildings and it will be some time before the refuge can be enjoyed to its fullest potential.

The research and educational aspects of wildlife conservation are being developed as rapidly as circumstances permit. Some research projects, for example, on woodlands, deer, et cetera, are carried out direct by Forest and Wildlife Service personnel; other aspects—for example, grouse, mallard, peregrine falcon, et cetera—are commissioned from a number of outside agencies. On the educational front, a mobile exhibit of forests and wildlife items is displayed at schools and various shows; weekend courses for youth leaders are held at Avondale; and efforts are being made to disseminate information to the public by means of handouts, brochures and other suitable literature.

Subhead I, Agency, Advisory and Special Services, at £46,000 shows an increase of £11,480 on the 1971-72 provision arising mainly from increased salary costs and the enlargement of the timber technology research programme being undertaken by the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards on behalf of the Forest and Wildlife Service.

Subhead J, Appropriations-in-Aid, at a figure of £1,270,000 shows an increase of £120,000 in estimated revenue over the estimate for 1971-72.

Sales of timber at a figure of £1,188,000 account for most of the increase anticipated. The sawlog market continues buoyant and we are arranging to advance the marketing programme for sawlog slightly to meet an increasing demand.

While supplies of thinnings are increasing and demand remains strong, it is more difficult to maintain price levels for standing timber, mainly because of external price factors and increasing harvesting costs. Thinnings supplies are generally in balance with present production requirements of the main processing plants, and various plans by these factories to increase their output could absorb expected increases in availability of pulpwood in State forests over the next few years.

In common with other Government Departments, the Forest and Wildlife Service is developing a programme budgeting system under which expenditure is related to defined objectives and measures of output are determined for measuring progress towards the achievement of these objectives. The programme budget is structured under four programme areas, namely: Forest development; State forest management; conservation and support services.

A computer based management information system is being developed to provide the information on costs, cash expenditure and outputs which will be needed for satisfactory operation of the programme budgeting system.

I would stress that the new procedures will take a number of years to establish and, in the meantime, a considerable amount of experimentation and modification will be required. The benefits of the system are, however, already becoming apparent in so far as more data is becoming available for evaluating the costs and benefits of alternative ways of achieving objectives. Tentative five-year projections are made of cash requirements and eventually the assurance of availability of funds will make it possible to plan with confidence for the future and to improve further the economics of forestry operations.

The one great factor which is now dominating our economic thinking as a nation is our imminent entry into the European Economic Community and as far as forestry is concerned accession will not necessitate any change in existing policy. The current planting programme of 25,000 acres per annum is in line with the general objectives of the Community and the scheme of grants to encourage private planting which I have already announced is not in conflict with any of the council's directives. Increased productivity from afforestation is one of the main objectives of the Community and this is understandable against the impressive total deficit in wood production in the Six of some 1,636 million hoppus feet, a deficit which, in the existing Community, is expected to reach 2,770 million hoppus feet by 1980.

Another objective to which our future partners in Europe are dedicated is the concept of multiple use of the forests for amenity, recreation, and conservation and here, again, is an objective to which we are very happy to subscribe and, in fact, have been pursuing for a number of years past.

The House may be assured, therefore, that in so far as the State forest operations are concerned we are in good shape to meet the challenge of entry to the EEC.

I move: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."

Because of 'flu I do not know whether I shall be able to continue speaking for very long on this Estimate. I am not satisfied that the progress which many of us anticipated during the past two years has been achieved. About three years ago I appealed to the Minister to purchase the maximum amount of land possible before we entered the EEC but I find now that the pool of land that is available for division is 73,000 acres which is 8,000 acres less than that available this time last year.

The Land Commission as constituted at present have failed in their duty during the past couple of years. This surprises me especially since we on this side of the House advocated the purchase of the maximum amount of land because we knew that within the EEC the price of land would be so high as to place a great burden and hardship on farmers. I do not know whether the Land Commission were inhibited by a lack of money, lack of personnel or whether they have not sufficient autonomy but it is frustrating for people in many parts of the country and especially those in my own area who are crying out for land to see land at present falling into the hands of speculators. These local people are not in a position to compete at auctions with those speculators.

The Minister told us this evening of some very good innovations in respect of afforestation, for example, the increase in grants which is certain to be welcomed by all and also the fact that we are again reaching the 25,000 acre target. I will be dealing with the question of afforestation in detail later but at this point I congratulate the Minister on what has been achieved in this field. The innovations that the Minister mentioned will result in both more private and State planting in the future.

This Estimate is an annual review of the activities of the Land Commission. Under the Estimate, also, we deal with the problems of congestion and migration. There still remains a great volume of work to be done in regard to land division but I can appreciate the difficulties that face the Land Commission in this regard because there is not nearly enough land available to satisfy demand.

The Minister told us that the Vote this year shows an increase of £251,000 when compared with last year's figure but when one takes into account the increases in wages, et cetera, and also the problem of inflation, it will be realised that not nearly the same amount of work could be done this year as in past years because in order to maintain the level of work carried out, an increase of up to £600,000 would be required. An increase of more than £100 million during the past five years is a very meagre amount and the Land Commission cannot be expected to do the amount of work that is desirable on such an increase.

Since 1969 I have been advocating the buying up of a maximum pool of land so as to make holdings more viable and that is the aim of all of us in this House so that the maximum number of people can be kept on the land. In the year ended 1971 40,000 acres were inspected but the figure for 1972 was 30,000 acres—a reduction of 10,000 acres. The intake in 1971 was 26,000 acres but there was a reduction of 3,000 for 1972 when the figure was 23,000 acres. Unfortunately, the figures are going in the wrong direction and that is a pity. In 1971 the land pool was 81,000 acres but in 1972 it was only 73,000 acres.

Throughout the country at the moment land is coming on the market and there are many people looking for it but I do not know why the Land Commission are not acquiring it. I urge them to do so because although land is dear now it may be twice as dear within a few years. If this prognostication is correct, there will be no possibility of satisfying the needs of those who are crying out for land now. There are about 12,000,000 acres of fertile arable land in the country.

The people on the land represent roughly 28 per cent of our population. In the past they have not been getting a fair crack of the whip. Last year they got between only 18 per cent and 19 per cent of our national income. We know that with EEC prices their position will improve in the future. Out of the 12 million acres of arable land 54 per cent of it comprises holdings of less than 30 acres, 20 per cent comprises holdings of between 30 and 50 acres, 17 per cent comprises holdings between 50 and 100 acres, 7 per cent comprises holdings between 100 and 200 acres and 2 per cent with over 200 acres. Out of the total number of holdings—you need 50 acres of very good land at the present time to make a viable holding—nearly 60 per cent of our land could be regarded as non-viable holdings. I admit that figures can be misleading because, if we take out of these figures the number of people with holdings of less than five acres, whom we could not call farmers, we find that roughly 45 per cent of our farms are still uneconomic.

On 23rd November, 1972, I asked the Minister to state in respect of each year since 1960 the acreage of land inspected by the Land Commission, the acreage acquired, the total paid for land, the acreage paid for, the amount paid in cash, the amount paid in land bonds and the acreage divided. The trend seems to be completely in the wrong direction. As far back as 1963-64 the total area inspected was 102,194 acres. The following year it was 96,820 acres. In 1966-67, it was 95,814 acres. That figure was down last year to 32,608 acres. In 1965-66, we divided 50,946 acres of land and last year 25,432 acres were divided. This is roughly half the land divided in 1965-66.

I am surprised at those trends because the Minister, in answer to a question I asked some years ago, said that, as far as he was concerned, he wanted to try to get the maximum pool of land acquired by the Land Commission prior to our entry into the EEC. We know that he wants to see the maximum number of viable farms with people on them earning a decent living. We hope that the years ahead will be very good years for the people earning a living on the land.

The people took a very good decision on 10th May last. We now hope that the standard of living of our small farmers will greatly improve. We believe that at least 84 per cent of the people voted in favour of our entry into the EEC. The land policy was the main interest of the Irish people in going into the EEC. They wanted to see their standard of living increasing and the available continental prices for produce they exported. Politicians on all sides of this House want to see our farmers getting good prices.

I want to pay a tribute to the Minister. Whenever I call on him or bring deputations to him I am always received with courtesy. I want to say the same about the staff of the Land Commission, particularly those in Dublin. I have always found the staff in Dublin very efficient, courteous and helpful. Recently we got an opportunity of getting a factory in Mullingar. I visited a German who bought a farm some years ago. He had a friend from Germany who was prepared to start a factory which would employ over 100 people. It was precision work. The Shannon Industrial Estate did not suit him as he wanted to live out in the country. He put his eye on a Land Commission house with stables and outhouses. The Land Commission were delighted that there was somebody interested in purchasing it.

I brought a deputation to the local office at 11 a.m. This German wanted his business done quickly. The local inspector phoned for an appointment so that we could meet the officials in charge in Dublin. We put the case to them and we said we wanted a reply in a week. On the following Thursday morning I had word that the land this man required for the factory was being sold by the Land Commission. They only had four working days to get this matter settled. The man concerned sent me a very complimentary letter and was more than surprised at the speed he got a decision. We told him we would be lucky if we got a reply from the Land Commission in a month. The factory will open in a couple of months and we expect a few hundred people will be employed. The officials in the Land Commission worked late into the night on this matter.

I believe the Land Commission as at present constituted has outlived its usefulness. I think I said something like this a few years ago and the Minister put something similar on record. As far as I remember he said he was the only Minister in the House who was doing himself out of a job by what he proposed at the particular time.

The Deputy keeps on misquoting.

The Minister probably meant he would be transferred to some other Department.

I did not say that.

I think the Minister meant at that time that the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Lands should be put together. He said he was the only Minister in the House who was doing himself out of a job. I think the Minister meant the Department of Lands.

The Deputy is right. They will not take me.

They will indeed. I know the Minister would get another Department.

The time has come for the establishment of a rural development authority. We have proposed such an authority for a number of years. It should be composed of representatives of farmers and rural and vocational interests. This authority should take over many of the operational functions of the Department of Lands and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. There should be a national board of the rural development authority. This board should act as an advisory group reporting directly to the Minister, who would be a Minister for Agriculture and Lands.

This rural development authority should deal with lands and agriculture and take over the operational functions of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the ACC and other organisations. This was advocated in the Devlin Report some years ago and I dealt with it then. It is not necessary to go into it in detail now. A rural development authority would be better than what we have at present. There are great delays at present. Local officers draw up the schemes which are submitted to the Department. Local enthusiasm and initiative are essential for any successful programme of land development. Such initiative and enthusiasm can only be stimulated by delegating responsibility to people at local level. Responsibility should be given to farmers and their advisers. They should take decisions about land and farms and the control of the necessary funds.

The excessive central control of routine decisions has had the effect of stifling local initiative. This is true in many cases. Local development boards, with representatives from the committees of agriculture, the farming organisations and voluntary organisations, would know of the capabilities of people and who should get land. The majority of the Land Commission officials do their work reasonably well, but one cannot expect a Land Commission inspector to know every man in an area and to know the capabilities and faults of each one, and to know who should get land. Valuable advice could be got from a rural development board.

It is the duty of the Dáil to furnish the Land Commission with the ways and means to initiate a determined drive to build up the farming structure of this country, having regard to modern trends and needs. The powers, functions and policies of the Land Commission should be adequate to meet the needs of the present as indicated by social and economic developments at home and abroad. The farmers of Ireland are entitled to a fair living in their own country. Many small farmers, particularly in the congested areas, have not got the standard of living to which they are entitled even though stock prices have increased since we decided to enter the EEC.

A survey was carried out eight years ago. It was pointed out then that 100,000 small farmers were earning less than £5 a week. The situation has improved since then but, according to the figures which we got eight years ago, that was the position at that time. That was a scandalous state of affairs. All politicians bear some responsibility for it. It is not something we can be proud of.

A tremendous amount of work has been accomplished by the Irish Land Commission since their foundation, but much remains to be done. Any farm of less than 50 acres of good land is uneconomic, in my opinion. According to my criteria there are over 136,000 uneconomic holdings. This represents over 45 per cent of all holdings in the country. If we could take over all the land in the Six Counties in an uncultivated condition there would not be enough land to solve our congestion problems. It is not right to say that the farmers with the uneconomic farms are lazy. If they were, they would have gone away long ago as so many of our countrymen have gone, many of whom had greater resources.

We would all like to see each farmer with a minimum of 60 acres of good land. It is hard to know what is the proper size for a farm. The size of a farm varies because the land itself varies so much. My belief is that a farmer needs at least 55-60 acres of reasonably good land. Because of the scarcity of land the solution must lie in the direction of intensified production on the smaller holdings. There must be higher capital investment and extra agricultural advisory services. I mentioned in the House three years ago—and the Minister mentioned it at an Ard Fheis, and others have mentioned it since then—that part-time employment with the man still living on the farm and getting employment in his own area is one solution.

It has been agreed in this House that, so far as the Irish Land Commission are concerned, their plans for future farm structures must be based on the maintenance of the traditional family farm. In the 1930s 20 acres was supposed to be an economic holding. That figure rose to 30 acres in the 1940s, and to 40 acres in the 1960s. At present it is from 50 to 55 acres. In order to give a farmer a decent livelihood by present day standards a case can be made for farms of 50 or 60 acres.

The available pool of land is limited and the Land Commission must do their best for the greatest number of people. I mentioned the drop in the acquisition of land over the past two years. I expressed surprise. Is it due to staff shortage? I suggest that if a letter were inserted in the newspapers there would be a deluge of applicants. According to figures I have, 70 qualified last year and only half of them have been appointed. There were as many as 120 a few years ago and those of us who are members of county committees of agriculture have experience of between 15 and 25 applicants for each job.

I am not satisfied with the progress report on the acquisition of land from 1969 onwards. Three years ago I appealed to the Minister about this and he was in complete agreement with me. Is it that the Government will not give him the necessary money? We all know it would have been easier to buy land a year or two ago than it will be in a few years time. Land prices were reasonable then. All of us in the House know that the easiest way to get land is by negotiation and to pay cash rather than bonds.

Of course land can be got by compulsory purchase but this is a very tedious process. Notice has to be served, there has to be an inquiry, there may be an appeal and there is a further time-lag before the case is heard by the Land Commission court. The law in this respect needs to be brought up-to-date as quickly as possible so that the Land Commission can proceed at once against absentee landlords, investment companies and other business undertakings, including speculators who have purchased and have been holding so much land in recent years. The Land Commission should lose no time in acquiring and allocating such land among local applicants, whether they be smallholder, cottage tenants or farmers' sons and others, who through their industry and hard work—I speak particularly about Westmeath—have acquired land on the 11-months system and some of whom have as many as 70 cattle. I mentioned this already and the Minister was sympathetic. In a farm divided in Westmeath last year a number of such people got land. They are in a position to stock their farms properly. The Land Commission are to be congratulated on their initiative in the case I have just mentioned. I am sure it was done at the suggestion of the Minister.

Although I agree that local people should be catered for first when an estate is divided migration within counties should be encouraged. I was in Limerick recently and I heard complaints on similar lines there. I have heard them in Tipperary, Galway, Laois and Kildare as well as in my own constituency. Big farms come up for sale but when local Deputies make representations they are told there are not sufficient congests inside the one mile limit. This has happened in respect of three or four big estates in Westmeath, and in at least two such cases, the Gallagher estate and the Potterton estate in Cloughan, the owners were quite prepared to sell. When we went to the Land Commission, however, we were told there were not sufficient congests in the area.

My suggestion is that when that is the case migration from within the whole county and from Longford should be permitted. People with farms of 50 acres, or even as many as 70 acres, could be transferred to these big estates of 400 acres and their original farms divided among their smallholding neighbours. I would go so far as to suggest that farmers with viable holdings should be transferred to these big estates in the neighbourhood of which there are not sufficient congests and that their lands be given to uneconomic farmers in their original neighbourhood. Gradually this would cause a vast improvement in the land structure. It surprises me that the Land Commission are not interested in doing this. It is sad for us to hear people say they cannot get land because there is no big estate adjacent.

The Minister and the Government are facing a big problem here. One can appreciate the size of it if one reads the Scully Report on agriculture in the west of Ireland. At page 92 it is stated that the farming population is now a typically ageing one with 56 per cent of farmers over 50 years of age and only 19 per cent younger than 40 years. We are entering a competitive period in the EEC and we need men with brains and ability on the land. This report says that 50 per cent of all farmers of more than 50 years of age have no prospective heirs. I suppose they are hardly likely to. It is a very depressing picture. The report also says that 35 per cent of farmers are unmarried. We must admit, the Minister included, that these are frightening figures which should awaken us from our slumbers. If we are to make the best of the advantages accruing from EEC membership we need a virile young people on the land.

Those figures make sad reading. Admittedly, the Government have a big task to face but it should be faced as quickly as possible. I could quote much more but it is so depressing that it would annoy each of us. On page 72 it is shown that farms with gross margins exceeding £1,500 per annum —an agricultural labourer has nearly that much now and, to live in any reasonable comfort, a farmer would need that amount—number only 7 per cent. That is very depressing. In Table B, under farms with gross margins of £1,001 to £1,500, the figure is only 1.4 per cent. In the case of farms of more than one labour unit, some of whom are 50 years of age or less, with gross margins of £701 to £1,000, the figure is 5.7 per cent.

That shows these people are in a bad way and shows the magnitude of the problem facing the Minister and the Government. Young people today are not prepared to put up with the standards of their parents and to be hewers of wood and drawers of water. They want to pursue alternative careers in the rural community. A new drive to provide employment in industry, tourism, forestry and local development work as envisaged by the Minister three years ago should be started immediately. This programme should include special training schemes, resettlement allowances and provision of houses. A small farmer could then stay on his ten-acre or 20-acre farm, farm it and work also in forestry, tourism or local industry. The Minister had the nucleus of this scheme three years ago; he promised it and we are entitled to ask: what happened to it?

Over 10,000 people a year are leaving the land at present. This is a case in which I think the Minister would get the help of all parties to put into operation the programme to which he referred three years ago.

I was anxious that the Minister should purchase as much land as possible a few years ago and I pointed out on many occasions that if this was not done that, when it was certain we were entering the EEC or when we would enter it, land prices would jump. They certainly have jumped. In recent years, and especially last year, land values have increased substantially with no prospect of their falling. Ten or 12 years ago land was £100 an acre; it went up to £150 or £200 a few years ago. Now it is fetching up to £500 per acre. This will certainly create problems and I believe the State will have to subsidise the rents in future thus increasing the burden on the State. Young married farmers could not be expected to pay £30 or £35 an acre and that is what I expect will be the economic rent in a few years, judging by present prices.

There is land on the market at present but small farmers are finding it very hard to compete with the man with the cheque book. The Agricultural Credit Corporation are doing very good work in helping many deserving farmers to purchase more land and they should be congratulated on that. The banks are certainly giving much more money to farmers recently for the purchase of land and are also to be congratulated. But the small farmer really has his back to the wall in trying to compete for land on the open market so as to make his farm viable. He is not in a position to compete with speculators or with those that I would call racketeers, finance and investment companies, who should not be allowed to buy land. They have done it in my county and are doing it in other counties. I think it is time to put an end to this practice. These people have the financial resources but it is our duty to consider those who cannot write large cheques for land to extend their holdings.

That is where the Land Commission can be of the greatest service. Many people throughout the country have lost faith and confidence in the future because they have seen large holdings fall to speculators who, when there was no money to be made out of land and when farming was depressed, kept far away from it. Now, when they see a bright future the fly-by-night men are prepared to buy land. I do not blame the smallholders for losing faith.

We should ensure that these hard working and trustworthy people—the most reliable section of our community —get the place in society they deserve. If they are to get more land the Land Commission should ensure that no more farms pass to the type of speculators I have mentioned. For the past month this is happening in Westmeath and in other parts of the country. All of us in the past have paid tribute to the small farmers who stood between the people and hunger and want. They were in the front line trenches in every war. They produced wheat, oats, barley, potatoes and milk; they showed their skill, industry and efficiency. They are the backbone of the country and this Parliament and the Land Commission should endeavour to improve their standard of living. This can only be done by extending their holdings and making as many as possible viable. If that is to be done in my area and in the midlands generally, the Minister, if he has not got the power already, must get the power to see that investment companies are not allowed to purchase the land of this country as they have been doing for the past year or so.

In answer to a question to the Taoiseach on the 23rd November last I was told that in the last ten years the total number of farmers had fallen from 210,331 to 200,625, a reduction of almost 10,000. The number of holdings has also fallen. In answer to another question on the same date I was told that from 1960 to 1970 the number fell by 10,658. However, the most alarming figures of all are the figures of the numbers at work in farming. The number has fallen from 369,101 to 323,219, a reduction of 45,882 in five years. That was from 1961 to 1966 and there has been a further drop of almost 30,000 since then, which would be equal to 55,000 in 11 years. That certainly illustrates the problem facing each and every one of us.

I also asked on the same date for the estimated number at work in agriculture, forestry and fisheries. That has fallen from 390,000 in 1960 to 282,000 in 1971, a drop of 108,000. All this shows the magnitude of the problem facing the nation, and it is our duty to see that those who are now leaving farming at the rate of 10,000 a year will be retained in their own districts, if possible, or, failing that, at least within the country.

The plan suggested by the Minister at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis was an excellent one. The Minister's intentions in that direction are, at least, quite fair and honest because he knows the problems of the west, but despite all the promises of the past few years the Government have failed dismally to recognise our national responsibility to provide those who no longer wish to continue in farming with an alternative career or employment within their own county or within the country.

While we cannot hope to eliminate emigration in a very short time, I am convinced that an energetic programme aimed specifically at helping people to find a satisfying alternative role in their own community would progressively reduce the flight from the land. This is a huge problem concerning the whole country. It concerns more specifically I suppose, the Minister's own area, Mayo, and Leitrim, Donegal, parts of Clare and Kerry. It is not the fault of those people that they have to uproot themselves from the land. They are not inclined to do it and, indeed, it is hard to get them to part with the land, as the Minister has already stated in relation to section 6 of the Land Act. They have a long and rugged history. They have in the past made the most of their limited opportunities, but for some years the tide has been running against them. They had not economic holdings. I should like to quote what I said at column 846, volume 242, of the Official Report of 12th November, 1969:

...a new drive to provide employment opportunities in industry, tourism and forestry should be started. This programme should include better special training schemes, resettlement allowances and the provision of houses.

In reply to that debate the Minister said, at column 1415 of the same volume, or 20th November, 1969:

Over the last few months I have given a great deal of thought to what the future role of the Land Commission should be, whether the present policy is the right one, whether the social consequences of the implementation of that policy have been good or otherwise.

Later he said:

In this regard I consider Deputy L'Estrange went a long way towards articulating my feelings in regard to this country when that situation occurs. It took him a while to come around to the logic of his own argument but I think he accepts, as I do, that it is unthinkable that we should develop in this country anything on the lines of a Mansholt Plan.

I agreed with the Minister then and I agree with him now. It is the Minister's policy, but is it Fianna Fáil policy? Have they held him back? Why have they not allowed him to proceed as he told us he would? As I said earlier, the Minister got a standing ovation at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis at that time. Economists and other people said they gave him their full support. Deputies on all sides of this House gave him their full support. We are entitled to ask what has happened since then. The Minister also said in that debate:

I would prefer that we would have more people rather than fewer in the west of Ireland.

We all agree wholeheartedly that while providing them with an opportunity of living on the land, we should also enable them to work in small industries, in tourism, fishing, forestry, or whatever it may be. The Minister went on:

I was extremely interested indeed when Deputy O'Hara from my own county expressed this view as well. He freely conceded that 20 years ago he had argued in the opposite direction. It is very much to his credit that he should come into this House and say he has changed his mind.

Many people were brought up from the west to my county. They got farms there and they are the best of neighbours, but the majority of them will tell you they are not happy and if they got an opportunity of buying land in Galway, or wherever they came from, they would go back there. The Minister continued at column 1416:

I believe he is right in what he says and that however well-intentioned the policy in the old days was it should now be reversed. Indeed, it is interesting to observe that part-time farming has been proved in other countries to be more productive than fulltime farming.

Again I ask what has happened that the Minister has not gone ahead with that scheme? The Minister continued at column 1417:

...in order to restore the vitality that is needed to be restored in certain parts of the west of Ireland we should change our policy from one of trying to give everybody an economic holding to one of trying to provide suitable employment in industry or forestry and leave our people with their small farms.

The Government have a very important part to play. If we are to preserve a viable rural community and provide a better standard of living for small farmers, especially in the west, I would ask them to put the policy the Minister spoke of a few years ago into operation. It is the aim of all parties in the House that the greatest possible number of persons should live on the land in a pattern of closely-knit viable farm units.

The Minister spoke about regional development. I ask, have we done enough with regard to regional development? I am inclined to believe that we have not. In the EEC the development of regions like the west of Ireland has been undertaken by means of the establishment of major development centres. A good example would be the Taranto-Barie industrial complex in Southern Italy, assisted by EEC institutions. It is admitted in Italy that their policy at one time was to put industries into large centres of population and to get the people to move out of these areas. We have adopted that policy for far too long with the result that the city of Dublin has become so big that the country is like a small boy with a big head, which will shortly pull the boy down.

Within the EEC the idea is to establish an industry every 15 or 20 miles in rural areas so that people living on small farms would not have more than nine miles to travel to an industry. That is the policy that we are pressing on the Minister. Our failure to adopt that policy has had the result that we cannot hope to secure EEC assistance in our efforts to develop the west. Our efforts would be regarded in Brussels as so derisory as not to justify financial or technical assistance. We have lost ground by not having a regional plan which we can put into operation immediately.

The policy should be to leave the people in rural Ireland on their farms and to promote schemes in rural areas, such as afforestation, land reclamation, drainage and artificial manuring. A great deal more could be done in regard to the lakes in the county the Minister represents. Sea fishing and cottage industries should be developed.

I welcome the Minister's statement that he has now got permission from the Government to go ahead in implementing the policy he told us about over three years ago. If he does so, he will have the support of everybody in this House.

In order to qualify for an allocation of land a person must have land of his own or he must be a person who loses his employment on a farm. Some of those persons who lost employment on land are not being properly compensated. If such a person has a cottage and a number of cows he will get from four to eight acres but he must also qualify under the one mile limit rule. Admittedly, there is not sufficient land available but I would appeal to the Minister to give special consideration to farmers' sons who are not in a position to buy the land they require. The three sons of a farmer may work their father's farm. If the sons get married a holding of 80 acres could not support the entire family. It should be possible for such young men to obtain land from the Land Commission. The Land Commission should introduce a scheme of leasing land to persons who are farmers' sons or who take land on the 11-month system. If the system of leasing proves a success, the Land Commission could then consider selling the land to the persons in question.

There are splendid young men who have to emigrate. They need an opportunity to prove their worth. Young people may be criticised in the Press and on television and very often a wrong impression is created. The vast majority of young people are as good as or better than their fathers and grandfathers were. Given an opportunity they would prove their worth.

Through Macra na Feirme and other organisations young farmers are being educated and are better qualified to work the land than were the persons who got land in former days. It is a difficult task to allocate land. The Minister should buy up the big estates. It would be much more productive to have the land worked by farmers' sons than to have it sold to speculators, builders and finance companies. The Land Commission could help to stem the tide of emigration by buying up estates and allocating it to young farmers. When these young men cannot get a stake in their own country, they become disheartened and disillusioned. Many of them leave Ireland forever and the country is the poorer. All they require is security of tenure of a small amount of land. It is frustrating that people who should be in a position to settle down in rural Ireland should have to emigrate while some fly-by-night or some of the types I have mentioned can buy estates of up to 1,000 acres.

We have raised the question of the one mile limit on numerous occasions. I maintain that that limit should be abolished. It is not a legal requirement; it is merely a regulation but, unfortunately, the Land Commission enforce that regulation strictly. I have given instances in the past of bachelors who were 100 yards inside the mile limit, men of 55 and 60 years, getting farms while married men with large families who were 100 yards outside the mile limit were refused. The aim should be to give the land to the people who need it most and to the people who will make the best use of the land both in their own interest and in the nation's interest. This question should be examined immediately because it is completely wrong to give land to a bachelor who is inside the mile limit and leave married men with large families without it.

I come now to the question of the halving of the annuity. The Minister said today:

The total contribution this year, £1,459,500, constitutes one of the biggest items in the Vote and represents nearly one-third of the entire net estimate. The total subhead provision, some £1,287,000, will be utilised to make good the deficiencies in the land bond fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933.

The halving of the land annuity was one of the biggest boosts to Fianna Fáil in the past. It certainly helped them with the farmers. In the 1965 Land Act they changed that so far as people getting land outside the congested areas are concerned. Both Longford and Westmeath are outside the congested areas. If a local man gets a farm he must pay the full annuity while somebody who comes from a congested area gets it at half the annuity. This seems very unfair. For a 40 acre farm a Westmeath man could have £800 to pay and a man who came from Galway or Roscommon would get away with £400. The proclamation of 1916 declares that it resolved to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally. This is not cherishing all the children of the nation equally. The system is a bad one. The Minister said on 24th November, 1969 —I quote from column 1419 of the Official Report:

I will say no more than that I am prepared to consider this whole question as to whether such a distinction should continue,

I will be fair to the Minister. He continued:

but I will be very slow indeed to recommend that general subsidisation of the annuity should be practised. I do not think this would be good. I should much prefer that the people concerned would go into the open market and buy the land themselves and that my function would be to give them interest-free loans or loans at a slightly subsidised rate rather than that the machinery of the Land Commission should be put into operation and that the end product would involve subsidisation of the rent.

Neither has happened since. Instead of the annuities being reduced, with the price of land at present they will be doubling. A much greater problem faces the Minister now. I said nothing has happened, but in the west something has. I think a man can get up to £10,000 but, so far as the farmers in the midlands are concerned, they cannot avail of this scheme. It is only for the congested areas. As the Minister's intention seems to have been good then, would he extend the scheme he has for the congested areas to the whole country? I do not believe £10,000 is a proper figure; it should be a minimum of at least £12,000, but if he would even do that it would be a help.

The Minister said:

Subhead H provide the funds for the payment of gratuities pursuant to section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on estates taken over by the Land Commission for distribution. Last year gratuities totalling £12,270 were paid to 25 ex-employees—an average of £490 each.

Those people are getting a very raw deal. A sum of £200, £300 or £400 is more of an insult to such a man than anything else. A worse feature is that a man may have four or five labourers and let perhaps three of them go a year before he hands his farm over to the Land Commission. Those people really suffer. The Minister should look again into the whole question of compensation. A sum of £12,270, or an average of £490 each, seems very little compensation to men many of whom have spent their whole lives working on a particular farm.

The Minister also spoke of the management services unit which continues to produce significant savings. He mentioned the incentive bonus and I agree with him that the application of work-study technique to the workers of the Land Commission seems to be very progressive. Incentive bonus schemes are contributing to the maintenance of a very high level of production. To everybody concerned we should give credit for that.

We welcome migrants to Westmeath—we have done it in the past —but I believe the Minister should cater for those people in their own localities, in their own environment where they are satisfied. Instead of bringing people from the West to the Midlands, he should provide work for them in the West and encourage migration within counties. I would ask the Minister to concentrate on that because what is happening in County Westmeath at present is very unfair. There have been at least from ten to 12 farms of from 300 to 600 acres sold within the last year. The majority of them have gone to different types of speculators—finance companies and building constructors living in this city who are not interested in land. I would ask the Minister to deal with this. If he dealt adequately with it there could be a much greater pool of land for distribution in the Midlands.

The Minister dealt with the question of new houses and house design. I am glad a new design has been used for the Land Commission houses and I should like to place on record my appreciation for this development. In addition, the layout of the farmyard and the cow byres has been improved. Architects should always remember that in rural Ireland the kitchen is the centre of activity in any house; people cook and eat there, they sit and talk with their friends in the kitchen. My reason for mentioning this fact is that we got architects to build houses in Mullingar but when the houses were completed it transpired that, although the dining room was very large, the kitchen was too small.

Life has become much easier for the farmer's wife and his family since rural electrification. Nowadays much attention is given to the planning of the out-offices and the farmyard. Architects should be asked to ensure that when buildings are being constructed, they should be built in such a way that afterwards, if the farmer wishes to extend the house, he can use the existing walls. From what I have seen of recent works, the architects deserve to be complimented on what they have done. In the past it was always possible to recognise immediately a Land Commission house, but that is not so today.

I am glad that the Minister has decided to increase the maximum loan for erection of a dwelling house from £500 to £750 and I am sure this will be welcomed by all Deputies. However, I am sorry to see that there has been a drop in the number of applicants. In 1969-70 there were 46 applicants and the amount expended by the Government was £41,425. In 1971-72 the number had decreased to 29 and the amount expended was £30,986.

The man most adversely affected today is the farmer with a small holding who is trying to rear a family. Recently I read in the newspaper that pro rata we have more bad or old houses in rural Ireland than any other European country. People who have too much land to enable them to qualify for a county council house are not able to avail of loans and grants. What the Minister has done with regard to loans is welcomed but I think at least £1,000 should be given to those people. I realise that money has to be obtained elsewhere, but if it were spent on loans it would be well spent.

I have mentioned previously that I consider land is held for too long a period and I would appeal to the Minister to speed up the acquisition of estates and, if possible, to divide them within a year. Recently I asked a parliamentary question on this subject and I found that 29,002 acres had been in the hands of the Land Commission for several years and that nearly 30,000 acres had been in the possession of the Land Commission for more than four years. These figures are alarming, but there has been an improvement in the last few years.

The Minister referred to improvement of estates. On 23rd November, 1972, I asked a question regarding rehabilitated holdings and the Minister replied that, from 1968 to 1972 inclusive, 240 holdings approximately were rehabilitated, the cost per acre varying from about £6 per acre in 1968 to about £10 per acre in 1972. The Minister stated that the normal rehabilitation work carried out consisted of the application of lime and fertilisers, according to the requirements of the soil. Today I thought the Minister mentioned it was being done with all land, but that is not so. The Land Commission should give the lead in this case. They should arrange that all land in their possession is tested for lime and, where necessary, they should apply the required amount of lime and artificial manures so that the land is handed over in a good condition.

There is a tremendous difference in the output from land that is properly drained and manured and the output from land that is neglected. It is essential that the Land Commission ensure that the land they divide is in good condition. The only difficulty is that, if this were done with all land, there would be a considerable delay in the division of estates. Perhaps newly-qualified agricultural instructors could be employed to ensure that this kind of work is carried out.

The prosperity of the country—and this applies to the city as well as rural areas—depends on what the farmers can get from the land. If the land is in good heart, output can be doubled and this will help the economy. The Government should set the example. The agricultural instructors should advise the farmers on the best method to ensure that their land is in good condition. Last May I visited a small farmer who lived at Aughnacliffe in County Longford. His house was on a by-road and he asked me to try to get him a piece of land that was being divided in the area. He showed me land he had obtained three years ago. In the month of May there were three or four inches of good grass on that land. I complimented him and told him it was much better than any of the land I had seen in Westmeath. He told me how he had drained it, cut the rushes, limed it and cared for it. I was a little incredulous and I asked a neighbour if what the man had told me was true; he said it was quite true. When the man got the land six years earlier the rushes were six feet high; he cut the rushes, drained and limed the land. If that can be done on one farm it can be done on other farms. This is what we should encourage and these farms should be made showpieces in their respective areas.

I come now to the vexed question of land bonds. On 23rd November last I asked if those selling land could be paid in cash instead of in land bonds and I was told the answer was in the negative. I have raised this matter here time and time again. I should like to quote now from the Minister's own statement here in this Dáil on 20th November, 1969:

I have strong views about the delays that occur between the time a person hands over possession and is ultimately paid in bonds. I am taking other steps, some of them possibly not too democratic, but my interest is in reducing the delay to such a point that the statutory obligation of getting the bonds at par will as far as possible be met.

The vendor gets the bonds the day the Land Commission signs for the land. It may then take a year or two years to settle the title; sometimes the delay is in the Land Commission and sometimes it lies with the vendor's solicitor but, when the vendor eventually receives the bonds, they are worth only 75 or 78. The Minister also said:

In regard to the whole vexed question of the Department of Lands and of the Land Commission there has been in this and in previous debates universal disapproval of the land bond system. It is no part of my function to defend the indefensible and I do not regard the land bond system as being defensible.

Those are strong words. That was three years ago. The position is unchanged. I do not blame the Minister. I believe he did his best. Whether it is the Government are to blame I do not know.

In the year 1970-71 the Land Commission acquired 3,059 acres of land for which they paid £144,784 in cash. In 1971-72 they acquired 1,148 acres for which they paid £88,021 in cash. There has been a vast reduction in the acreage of land bought for cash. In the same two years the Land Commission purchased 424,927 acres and paid £322,835 in cash. During the same period, 1970-71, they purchased 15,953 acres and gave the unfortunate vendors £1,599,436 worth of land bonds. In 1971-72 they purchased 15,307 acres and gave the unfortunate vendors £1,953,864 in land bonds. In two years the Land Commission paid £3,553,500 in bonds and they only paid cash to the value of £3,322,835. In other words, only a tenth of the land purchased was paid for in cash. This is very unfair.

Many of those who are selling the land are trying to buy new farms. Many are paying off debts. Some are paying death duties. In the case of the latter the State will not accept land bonds. I cannot understand why in a Budget of £750 million the Minister cannot find £2½ million to pay cash for land. A scheme should be initiated to pay cash for land. If that is done the Minister will find himself with 50,000 acres for division this year. He will then possibly be looking for £5 million or £6 million, but it will be money well spent. The county councils do not pay for land they buy with land bonds. Why should the Government adopt this particular policy? These bonds depreciate in value over the years. The system is unjust. No one wants confiscation of land, but this is a type of confiscation. The present system hinders the acquisition of land because no one has any faith or confidence in land bonds. Solicitors and auctioneers always advise clients to keep as far away as possible from the Land Commission when they are selling land because they will only get half or three-quarters of the value in land bonds. The system will have to be changed.

I can give a concrete example of what happens. Some time ago a small farmer sold a farm for £12,000. He wanted to buy another farm for £10,000 when he sold his own. There was no sign of the land bonds being paid to him and, in the end, he had to wait a year or 18 months and the farm he then bought cost him £12,500 to £13,000. When he got his land bonds at the end of two years he lost £2,000; he was out £5,500 altogether as a result of this extraordinary system. From that it can be seen how unjust the system is. Land bonds are not easily convertible and, when they have to be sold, they are invariably sold at a loss. I appeal to the Minister to do something to restore confidence in land bonds or else change the system altogether. Land bonds should have as high a reputation as have our national loans. I certainly believe they should be accepted for death duties, or income tax, or any other State debt, at par value or at a reasonable value. I cannot understand why the Government have not got faith in bonds issued by themselves. If they expect somebody else to accept them, why should they not accept them?

The Minister referred to the retirement scheme. The time has come to have another look at that scheme. We have to admit that it has been a failure. All elderly farmers who are willing to leave their land at an agreed rent should qualify for generous retirement pensions. The figures show that at present they are far from being generous. The individual pensions could be related to the total annual rental value of the land, so that the combination of rent and pension would provide them with an ample means of livelihood, and the pension in each case would be seen to be fair and equitable.

I asked a question on Thursday, 23rd November, and I got some figures from the Minister. This scheme has had but little success and just now the position is that we have 35 persons on the life annuity pay roll following the sale of their land to the Land Commission.

Three years ago I pointed out that I believed this scheme would be a failure. I asked the Minister to have a reappraisal of the whole scheme. I told him that the high hopes of Deputy Ó Moráin had not materialised. He told us in the Seanad that he was confident of getting thousands and thousands of acres under the scheme but Fine Gael were holding it up. We told him we believed it would not be a success. We asked him to change it and he refused.

I appealed to the Minister in 1969. I said:

The figures given at that time, and the figures I have just given, suggest there must be serious weaknesses in this scheme. The Minister told us today that, of between 375 and 380 applicants received under the scheme 138, almost half, were eliminated——

mainly because the lands concerned were not found suitable. I went on to refer to the fact that only 11 had been agreed and I appealed to the Minister to introduce a new scheme. The land could be acquired provided the farmers got a fair return. The scheme has been a failure and we look forward to the Minister introducing a new scheme as quickly as possible. He will have our full support.

Section 5 of the Land Act, 1965, is, I think, the section which contains the basic authority for the introduction of a scheme enabling the Land Commission to make loans to progressive small farmers in congested areas for the purpose of purchasing viable farms of their own choice on the open market. I do not think this scheme has been a success either. The Minister pointed out that the holdings purchased by the nine successful applicants contained in aggregate only 980 acres. In 1967-68 there were four applicants and they paid out £18,525. In 1968-69 there were none. In 1969-70 there were none, and in 1970-71 there were none. Last year there were two. Those figures show that the scheme is not a success. We know that £10,000 would buy only 25 acres of land roughly. That is not a viable farm. That limit should be increased to £20,000 so that the person could buy a viable farm. If a scheme is not a success the Land Commission should not wait for eight or nine years before changing it. It should be changed immediately.

I should like to deal now with the sale of land to foreigners and to other people. This is causing a lot of controversy. We had numerous debates on it when we were discussing the EEC and the Minister informed us that the Government would introduce legislation to differentiate between non-nationals and nationals. The Minister said he intended to introduce legislation but so far we have not got it. I am alarmed at the number of large holdings in my county, and in other parts of the country, which are falling into the hands of speculators and others.

Recently we got this booklet printed by the Dairying Association of Ireland, I think. It gives the trend towards bigger farms in the EEC. The surprising thing is that we are at the head of the table. Here, 10.8 per cent of our farmers have over 125 acres. In Germany the figure is 1.8 per cent; in France it is 8.5 per cent; in Holland it is 1.5 per cent; in Italy it is 1.7 per cent; in Belgium it is 2 per cent; and in Luxembourg it is 4.3 per cent. Therefore, we should not allow a number of speculators to come in here and buy land. The Minister has informed us that this involves certain rules and regulations of the EEC. We all know the implications of EEC membership. Decisions will be made which will affect our lives, and we may not have the power to alter them. We know that countries already in the EEC have progressive legislation to prohibit foreigners from buying land. When will we get that legislation on our statute books? A dangerous trend is creeping in of speculators, finance companies, building contractors, professional people, bidding for and acquiring land to the detriment of smallholders in the area.

The Deputy would not object to a few migrants from the west?

We welcome the migrants but, as the Minister has stated, the policy of leaving them on their own holdings and providing them with work, let it be in tourism, fishing, small industries, forestry, or land reclamation, is the better policy. They would be much happier but we have no objection to them. We welcome them and they make the best of neighbours. Nobody wants to reduce the number of families engaged in farming so as to bring back some arbitrary increase in the average size of a farm but when land is for sale, surely it should be acquired by the Land Commission because the aim of all should be to achieve social justice through economic progress and economic progress through social justice, and I want, as we all want, an end to drudgery on the land and to see established sound economic family units which can make what we all want to see them making, a good living on their land.

Small farmers and farmers' organisations such as the Land League in my county at present are asking some searching questions. They believe, as I am inclined to believe, that the establishment is out of touch with the realities of rural Ireland. They are wondering if there is a realistic Government policy on the division of land and why these farms which are going on the market in my county are not being purchased. I have mentioned three or four and I can mention half a dozen others, if necessary. They hold that every small farmer has a right to live, to work and to rear a family in rural Ireland, and they believe as I believe that far too many estates are now falling into the hands of speculators while too many small farmers are trying to eke out an existence against unfavourable odds. I admit that they are not within the mile limit but they are in the counties and adjacent to where the big farms are being sold and divided.

At present in my county there is a fair amount of discontent with the Land Commission. I think it only right to put that on the records of the House and it might be no harm to put on the records of the House what the chairman of the Land League said. I quote from The Irish Press of 8th November, 1972:

All agricultural land held by foreigners, foreign investment companies, investment companies fronted by Irish people and backed by foreign capital, native investment companies backed by wealthy industrialists, professional people or wealthy politicians, directors of State and semi-State bodies should be acquired without exception.

I agree with that statement. I think that land in the hands of that type of individual should be taken over by the Land Commission. He went on:

The National Land League had always recognised that the powers conferred on the Land Commission were adequate to ensure a fair distribution of our land but those who administer the powers were orientated towards the rancher.

That is a fair comment, perhaps, but it is a comment I would not be inclined to agree with because I think the majority of them do their work reasonably well. Perhaps I had better qualify that. They certainly do their work very well in the division of land but I cannot understand why they will not take up these numerous estates in Westmeath, Meath and other midland counties which have been offered for sale and are being sold at present. Perhaps they have some reason for it but I can not understand it.

He continues:

For the past two years or so, the monied interests had become involved in our land because they saw in it the safest investment they could possibly find and the result of their investment was that 10,000 small farmers on average were driven from the land.

That is quite true. It is a fair comment that it should not be happening in this country. At times they are condemned—I have been at some meetings where they have instructed their people to keep within the law but at which lawless or other elements have tried to use the organisation for their own motives and purposes. This has happened—I think they have expelled them in some cases. Some have given the organisations a bad name but the organisations themselves are not responsible for some of these people in some countries in the things they tagged themselves on to and did which they would not do or be responsible for.

I want to impress on the Land Commission the need to do something about purchasing these large tracks of land in the midlands. I had a deputation from Dysart recently where large tracks of land have changed hands. I was handed a list of 44 uneconomic holders in this case within a few miles of the estate. In Cloghan there is another big estate, the Potterton estate, and the man told a deputation he would sell it to the Land Commission if they would buy it. I got in touch with the Land Commission and got back a reply that there were not sufficient congests inside the mile area. That is completely wrong. There are sufficient congests within two miles of the area who are crying out for viable holdings to which they are certainly entitled. In the Killucan area, there is the Gallagher estate and we were up here on numerous deputations in connection with it. We were informed that the Land Commission were proceeding with acquisition. That was over two years ago and how far they have got I do not know, but the same man is in possession of it and none of the uneconomic holders in the area has got an acre of it. He is a big builder in this city.

I do not think that is the type of person who should have 500 or 600 acres of land in the midlands. I do not know how much he has in other parts of the country but the time has come for the Government to take action. We remember hearing at one time from the people on the far side —I have tried to keep politics out of this but I suppose the temptation is always there—about the land of Ireland being for the people and the bullock for the road. These people in my county who are organising are very frustrated and are looking for their just rights. The land of Ireland should have been for the people of Ireland and, indeed, they are merely looking for what Fianna Fáil Deputies and others promised them from 1927 to the early 1960s, when Fianna Fáil changed from being a party representing the small farmer, the small businessman and the shopkeeper, the workers and the oppressed sections of our people to being a party of extreme conservatives, representatives of the ranchers, the big industrialists, the tycoons, the investment companies, the speculators, the racketeers and the Tacateers who are out to exploit the small farmer.

You know that Fine Gael still represent big business and big farmers. That is why you were afraid to vote against law and order last week.

We stood for law and order when you were doing nothing about them.

The legislation has been there for the past three years but Fianna Fáil have not availed of it. Now they have found that they can put their toes in the water and they are inclined to jump in. If the Government had ruled during the past two or three years we could have had law and order.

Fine Gael have their Taca men, the big farmers and business people, and it was because they were afraid these supporters would come over to us that they took the action they did last week.

The Parliamentary Secretary is endeavouring to put Deputy L'Estrange off his speech.

I have seen cartoons in various publications depicting Fianna Fáil. One such cartoon from each of the publications, the Farmers' Journal and The Irish Times comes to mind when there was depicted a character at a Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis in the thirties with his cap on his head, his bicycle pump in his pocket and clips on his trousers.

Is the Deputy sure that it was not Deputy Oliver Flanagan who was being depicted in that cartoon?

A cartoon portraying them as they are now, depicts tycoons in striped suits and smoking cigars. They are the ranchers and the speculators who are keeping the Government in power today. Figures issued recently show that 5 per cent of the population own 70 per cent of the wealth of the country. Those are the people who have convinced Fianna Fáil now that it is time they enforced law and order. Those who subscribe handsomely to the party are becoming afraid and the Government have at last begun to heed their warnings. It is no harm to say that those organisations have been frustrated because Fianna Fáil today are not interested in the country people; they are not interested in the small farmers who are the backbone of the nation. They are more interested in exploiting our people and in exploiting the land of the country. People in rural Ireland who have small holdings are hungry for land and promises that they would get land have succeeded in keeping Fianna Fáil cumainn alive down through the years. When these people see many of those farms that were promised to their fathers, to their uncles, and in some cases to their grandfathers, being sold to speculators, is it any wonder they become frustrated?

On the law of average, they should get some part of it.

The problem is that the Land Commission are not prepared to take over lands. They should be prepared to buy estates of 200, 300 and 400 acres and if there are sufficient people within the one mile limit who apply for land, these people should be accommodated. They may bring people from the west if they wish to do so but they should encourage migration within the counties in which the land is available so that farmers who are not living adjacent to the estates will have an opportunity of acquiring viable farms. Who can blame any of these people for their frustration when these lands fall into the hands of speculators?

I do not think there are many such speculators but perhaps the Deputy can give us a list of those he has in mind.

For instance, an investment company has bought the Potterton estate at Cloghan and the Bellingham estate at Ballinacargy has also been bought recently by an investment company. Mr. Gallagher who is a big builder and speculator here in Dublin——

I do not think that these names should be bandied about.

The Parliamentary Secretary asked for them.

That is no reason for giving them. The Parliamentary Secretary should not ask for them.

If the Deputy has charges to make, he should make them.

He should not make them here.

I am aware that the Land Commission are buying land in my area all the time and in every other area of Galway, too.

That is why I cannot understand why they are not buying it in Westmeath. To be fair to those people I have mentioned, they have said that they are prepared to sell the land they have acquired to the Land Commission but when we get in touch with the commission they tell us that there is not enough congestion within a mile limit to warrant their taking over the lands. In one or even two of the cases in my area, I know there is sufficient congestion within the mile limit.

I referred earlier to the price of land and the reason I have harped on this question for the past few years was to encourage the Government to purchase the maximum amount of land possible before we enter the EEC. At present land is going at an average of £400 an acre. I noticed in a recent publication that we receive monthly from the Creamery Managers' Association that the price of agricultural land has rocketed within the United Kingdom. They tell us that land in one case was sold at £690 an acre, that in another case the figure was £750 an acre and that a farm in Gloucester fetched £837 per acre while another was sold at £970 per acre for ploughable land. I suppose by that they mean land that can be tilled. Up to last year reasonable land could be bought here from between £200 to £250 per acre but the same land today would cost about £400 per acre. Therefore, if the Land Commission do not put on their running shoes immediately they will be paying this price from now on and in a year or two they may be paying up to £700 and £800 an acre. This would mean that they would have to charge a rent of about £35 or £40 an acre.

It would be much more. At 10 per cent the rent will be about £70 an acre.

Deputy Esmonde is much better than I at figures and I accept what he says. Of course, he is right because for land for which they paid £200 an acre, the rent was £20. Surely everybody knows that no small farmer could afford such rent. Therefore, the Land Commission should endeavour now or even within the next six or eight months to buy the maximum amount of land possible. I hope something will be done in this direction.

The Minister told us that the Estimate as introduced provides for the planting of more than 20,000 acres but that a Supplementary Estimate would be introduced later this year for an additional amount estimated at this stage to be in the order of £100,000, so as to enable planting in the current year to be extended to 25,000 acres. I wonder why it is not possible for the Minister to bring in the full Estimate now rather than to have to introduce a Supplementary Estimate later. As I stated earlier the Minister and the Forestry Division are to be congratulated on what has been achieved in the past few years in this sphere. There have been many new additions and the grants have been increased. Yet, the amount of land under afforestation at the moment is about 175,000 acres and other forests which include ornamental forests, landscape planting and shrubs, brings the figure to about 664,000 acres. The percentage of land planted is about 3.9 per cent of that figure which is considerably lower than that of other European countries, including the Netherlands where the figure is about 8 per cent. While there has been progress in recent years, there is room for further improvement. Last year I stated that I would like to see the figure being increased to 30,000 or 40,000 acres. The land is available and we all know that there is no mountainside or bog that is not improved by afforestation because plantation adds tremendously to the landscape of the countryside.

On the 23rd November I asked the Minister for Lands the total amount of land acquired for forestry each year for the past four years, the total amount planted and the amount spent on the purchase of this land. I am glad to see that in 1968-69 21,750 acres were planted and this year 24,926 acres were planted. The Minister expects to plant 25,000 acres again next year. The figures in relation to the land acquired are even more encouraging. In 1968-69 14,108 acres were acquired and in 1971-72 37,046 acres were acquired. We should be able to reach a much higher target. It should, if possible, be increased to 40,000 acres a year. This would give increased employment in the country, which everybody wants to see. The acreage acquired this year is the highest since 1961-62. Forestry gives much needed employment in rural Ireland, especially in the west where the Parliamentary Secretary comes from and where the standard of living is low and the people are leaving the land.

The Deputy does not have to cry about saving the west. They will save themselves. They are doing very well.

The figures do not prove that. The Parliamentary Secretary may be satisfied about the way things in the west are but I am not. The Minister is not satisfied either. I can quote what he said in other years. Did the Parliamentary Secretary read the Scully Report?

They are improving every day. The trouble is everybody is trying to save the west but they will save themselves.

The population has been halved in 50 years. If that is saving the west I am a Dutchman. The Parliamentary Secretary has seen the figures published and he should know that even in his own county there has been a great reduction in population. The only thing that may save the west is the fact that we are going into the EEC and that the small farmer who in the past got £50 to £60 for a two-year-old beast will now get from £130 to £140. The Parliamentary Secretary may nod his head but it is no thanks to his party because they did not stand up for the little bullock in the past. The Parliamentary Secretary's party told us that all those foreign markets were gone forever.

We have milk and a dairying industry in the west, thanks to the Fianna Fáil Government.

The Minister is not responsible for milk.

Did you not always have milk in the west? The midlands were proud to go to the west to purchase good calves. If they had the calves they must have had the cows and the milk. I remember the man who was Minister for Foreign Affairs until a few years ago. He said if every ship was sent to the bottom of the sea we would do without England and without the rest of the world. It took the Parliamentary Secretary's party 40 years to wake up. Perhaps it is better late than never but the people of the west and rural Ireland have suffered a lot over the years for the sins of the Fianna Fáil Government. Numerous homes have been knocked down. The unfortunate people left them and went to England. The Fianna Fáil Government should be building new homes for the people in the west.

The Deputy should see the lovely homes they have.

There are certainly some in recent years but think of the 200,000 people who were sent out of the west in the last 30 years due to Fianna Fáil policy.

The only place I see derelict is when I cross the Shannon. I see large tracts of land and no houses in the Deputy's constituency.

We have nothing to be ashamed of in my county in that regard.

We are proud of the west. It is not asleep.

It is not asleep. Unfortunately, there is a lot of it dead because the dead hand of the Parliamentary Secretary's party descended on it years ago. The people were treated the way the farmer treats the faithful collie dog who is kicked under the table. The people are wakening up to Fianna Fáil now.

They are still backing Fianna Fáil.

As long as Deputy Kitt says they are backing Fianna Fáil they are doing fine.

Let us get back to the Estimate.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary not be in favour of what the Minister for Lands proposed a few years ago? He said at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis that the farmers in the west should be left where they were, that alternative employment should be provided for them.

We are doing that.

It is not being done. The population in the west has been halved in the past 50 years.

(Interruptions.)

Will Deputy L'Estrange please keep to the Estimate? He should be allowed to speak without interruption.

We are building factories.

Tell us about those advance factories. The number is very small.

They are coming.

The Minister for Lands is not responsible for the factories. If the Parliamentary Secretary wishes to discuss that on his own Estimate he is in order but it is not in order on this Estimate.

Deputy Donnellan is helping me.

On page 21, when the Minister was dealing with forestry——

Can the Parliamentary Secretary account for the fact that we will probably lose another Dáil seat in the west of Ireland?

It will not be a Fianna Fáil one.

That means a fall in the population.

It will not be the Deputy's seat and it will not be mine.

The Minister spoke about the forest park project, especially the one at Lough Key, County Roscommon, and about the co-operation between the Department of Lands and Bord Fáilte. There should certainly be co-operation between the Department of Lands and Bord Fáilte because we should try to bring as many tourists as possible to Ireland. As regards grants the Minister informed us that the rate had been increased from £20 per acre to £35 per acre. This is money well spent. The Minister said that the first instalment of £20 will be paid on the establishment of the plantation and a second instalment of £15 after a period of seven years subject to satisfactory maintenance. The fault in the past was in paying the full grants when planting was done. Many of the farmers neglected the trees and after about three years the cattle came in and knocked down the little trees.

The Minister also pointed out that the owners of land were reluctant to plant trees because the land is covered with shrubs the clearance cost of which will be very substantial. The figure of £20 per acre which the Minister is giving is money well spent. Even if it does not pay for the work the Department are to be congratulated. They are also giving an increased grant for the planting of hardwoods. The poplar is a popular tree in this country. It can be useful. Grants have been increased from £15 to £25 per acre. We are entirely in agreement with that policy. A good scheme should be encouraged.

Last year I stated that I believed the Department should expand the present forestry programme. I have congratulated them on work well done to date, but I am not satisfied with their marketing machinery. I do not know whether it is sufficient. There is much bogland, mountainside and wasteland to be dealt with. A survey should be carried out immediately to ascertain the amount of land that could be planted. The Department should plan ahead. We all agree that forestry can be a great tourist attraction. Tourists bring with them the hazards of forest fires. There have been many instances of tourists' carelessness in lighting picnic fires. Some campers have also been careless. An appeal should be made to the people. It should be explained that a forest fire on the side of a mountain can destroy hundreds of acres of forest land, worth many thousands of pounds. When so many forests are being opened to the public, it might be a good idea to make an appeal to them to be careful. It is good to see the people going into the countryside at the weekends and bringing their wives and families into the forests in order to enjoy the amenities there. Camping sites should be developed. The Land Commission are to be congratulated and we should encourage camping further. An appeal should be made to primary school teachers in particular to impress on the children the importance of being careful with matches and with fires. In the summer time fires are lit to boil kettles; the dry grass catches fire easily.

I entirely agree with the Deputy. This appeal should also be made to secondary school teachers, to those in vocational schools and even to those in universities.

We should appeal to all interested in the welfare of society. It would be a pity if access to the forests had to be stopped because of the carelessness of our own people or of tourists. The tourists seem to be more careful than many of our own people. I get the impression that our own people cause most of the fires through their carelessness.

I asked the Minister about the income from forestry. Forests develop fully in 30 years. Cuttings and thinnings are available after five, six, eight or ten years. In 1962-63 the expenditure on forestry was over £2 million while the income was approximately £563,678. The income has risen to over £1 million and I hope it will continue to rise. This is a trend in the right direction. I note that 3.9 per cent of our total land was under plantation. I am still not satisfied. There should be a higher percentage under plantation but the figure has increased from 2.8 per cent in 1962-63 to 3.9 per cent at present. The total acreage in 1962-63 was 470,230 acres. This figure has now reached 664,671 acres. The Minister has told us that it is their intention to plant another 25,000 acres.

It is a pity that less people are now employed in forestry. In 1962-63 there were 5,280 people working at forestry. This year there are only 4,063 people so employed. That is a drop of 1,217 people employed as compared with ten years ago. Those figures are depressing. There has been a drop of almost 300 since 1970-71.

I do not intend to deal at length with the subject of game. We dealt with it last year. There are 27 game councils at present. They do very fine work. In so far as wildlife development and game are concerned, the Department are doing a good job. The law as regards poachers and people shooting particular game out of season should be changed. The law is not strong enough to deal with poachers. It should be strengthened.

I had intended to deal with the amount of land planted. The amount of land which has been planted in Sweden and the Netherlands is interesting. In Japan the Government had a plan to plant 500,000 acres per year. In Italy 16 per cent of their total acreage is under forestry. This is more than four times what we have. In Sweden and Finland there are great forests. We should copy their example. Forestry, so far as Ireland is concerned, is of major importance. I congratulate all concerned with this work. Forestry provides national wealth and gives employment in rural Ireland. I am sorry to see a reduction in the employment figures. I hope that trend will be changed in the near future.

The people living on farm holdings should be able to live in comfort comparable to that of the town-dweller. The Minister should look at the annuity structure and land allocations by the Land Commission. In a few years people will be demanding higher prices for their land. Some people might be expected to pay £30 to £35 per acre. Indeed, Deputy Esmonde has said that the price of land could rise to £50 per acre. I would ask the Minister immediately to embark on the review of the land purchase system. We want legislation which will protect the land for the farmers who need it. Other EEC countries have been doing it and I appeal to the Minister to get busy on this immediately.

I appeal to him also to institute a system of paying for land in cash rather than in bonds. If he did so, much more land would become available. It would mean only £2½ million out of a total estimated expenditure this year of between £750 million and £760 million. The provision of land for farmers who need it is a vital national job which should be attended to at once.

I suggest that the Land Commission should see to it that land is divided and allotted within one year of purchase at the latest. I believe also that the scheme under section 6 should be scrapped and a new scheme operated which would encourage people to hand up land. This is a matter of urgency. There should also be greater grants and loans available for farmers on economic holdings to provide their own houses. County councils will not build for them and many of them have wives and large families and are not prepared to take on the extra burden. Payment could be made through the land annuities.

I mentioned a rural development authority. Perhaps its establishment would be a matter for the Taoiseach, but such a body should be set up to administer the work being done by the Departments of Agriculture and Lands. Another matter I wish to speak about is the securing of their own game and fishing rights for land owners. There are two sides to this and I have not any clear recommendation to make on it. I will conclude by again asking the Minister to widen the mile limit——

It works all right in places.

An extension would suit the Midlands. I suggest also that a scheme whereby the Land Commission could lease land should be introduced. They should also take over more land for forestry purposes.

I do not intend to labour the debate as long as Deputy L'Estrange did. However, he made many points about which I am sure he is sincere and I agree with him fully on them. First of all, I compliment the Minister for his detailed report on the activities of the Department of Lands and the Forestry Division in the past 12 months.

This Estimate particularly interests Deputies from rural areas, quite an amount of whose time is taken up with land problems. There is no week in which we have not deputations of one kind or another seeking assistance on matters of acquisition and division of land. The Minister has told us that the pool of land available is 73,000 acres. I am sorry it is not much bigger. During the past three years I and every other Deputy in the west of Ireland have been trying to bring to the notice of the Land Commission every holding advertised in the local newspapers. We have been endeavouring to have such land divided among congests. In the west a terrible lot of congestion exists and unless half the number of existing farmers were prepared to sell out there would not be any hope of giving the remainder economic holdings.

When farms come on the market, particularly in very congested areas, every effort should be made by the Land Commission to have them acquired and divided among local congests. There may be exceptions. Perhaps a local uneconomic farmer has sufficient money to pay for extra land. If he has, the Land Commission allow him to pay for it. When land becomes available in a congested area and an outsider attempts to come in to buy it——

Would the Deputy say the Land Commission are falling down on this?

They are not as effective as I should like them to be.

Then the Deputy knows what he can do.

It is sometimes hard to understand Land Commission policy in regard to the acquisition of land and it is hard to understand their decisions in certain cases. I have one such case in mind and it is partly why I rose here this evening. I speak of one of the most congested parishes in my constituency, Williamstown. In that parish there is the McDermott estate, Springfield, for many years farmed by two elderly brothers. It was let in conacre for a number of years to local farmers. Some years ago the Land Commission were asked to acquire it for division locally. They did a preliminary inspection and they assured local farmers that it would be acquired at the first opportunity.

Then, a retired parish priest—he has not retired yet—from Florida, with plenty of dollars in his pockets returned to Williamstown and grabbed this farm from the local congests. This was brought to the attention of the Land Commission by me and the people concerned, small farmers with ten, 15 and 20 acres. Land Commission officers in Galway prepared their case for the Land Court and after several adjournments to meet the demands of this reverend gentleman the case was heard in Dublin, far away from the people interested in Williamstown. Lo and behold, what did the Land Court do?

They did not give it to the people, anyway.

They decided to give this land to the priest who admitted in court that he was a sick man, that he wanted to come back to Ireland and retire.

How many acres were involved?

About 50 acres.

I must remind Deputies that a land court, just as any other court, and its decisions should not be made the object of criticism in the House.

They may be above criticism but this case calls for comment and this is the only place where I can comment on it. I know the land courts are above the Government and the Minister, perhaps, but this was such a dastardly decision that I cannot see how any lay commissioners could stand over it. They have agreed to give this farm to this priest if he returns in three years. The commissioners in Galway who investigated the case stated quite clearly that there were five or six farmers who were badly in need of land and who would be suitable applicants for land in this estate if it were acquired. But their evidence was not accepted; in fact, they were made a laughing stock.

If the Deputy had worked as hard about this land as I did about the land at Lisrevish, it is quite possible that they might have——

The Deputy need not make any snide remarks. This might concern him also. I am surprised that he can stand over this reverend gentleman getting a holding of land in the most congested parishes in the Deputy's constituency.

I want to make that clear. What I said, was—and I shall repeat it—that if the Deputy worked as hard on that case as I did regarding the land at Lisrevish the Land Commission might have——

If the Deputy had the interest of the people of Williamstown at heart he would have worked hard on this case, also. Unfortunately, he did not, apparently. Now, he has admitted it.

The Chair must remind both Deputies that the Land Commission, as such, is subject to criticism but the decision of a judge in a land court is not subject to discussion and must be dealt with as in the case of any court. The ruling is very clear on that matter: a matter decided at a land commission court should not arise in the House nor can the House review the decision of the court.

Is it not possible, regardless of what decision is made by a land court, and is it not only proper that we should, as Members of the House, be able to refer to it?

No. It is not in order to discuss it here.

Who answers then, may I ask?

These are decisions of the courts and court decisions may not be questioned in the House.

Whether I am in order or not in commenting on the decision of that land court I am now demanding that this case be reheard.

The Deputy will appreciate that the Chair is only concerned with upholding the ruling in these matters. The Deputy is quite free to criticise the commission and the commissioners, but once a matter has been decided by the judicial process it is not open to criticism after that.

I am sorry to be in disagreement with the Chair but I think the decision of the ordinary court, of every court, is open to comment once a decision has been made.

That is not so. The ruling in regard to this matter is well settled in the House. Decisions of courts may not be criticised.

After the decisions have been made?

So long as they are sub judice, yes. I shall continue to criticise decisions of courts, any courts.

I have read the ruling in regard to this: A judicial commissioner of the Land Court has the status of a High Court judge and his decisions are not open to criticism in the House. Matters decided in the Land Commission courts should not arise in the House, nor can the House review decisions of the court.

Is that a ruling of this House?

That is a different thing.

No court decision may be criticised in the House.

It may be criticised outside the House?

Outside the House, but not in the House.

(Interruptions.)

——once we establish our right to criticise decisions of the court when they are made.

I am asking that the Commission have another look at this case and that it be listed for re-hearing because I think the decision given was a disastrous one which could not be stood over. No court could stand over it. This reverend gentleman has recently tried to purchase land in County Roscommon.

The Chair would point out that the House should not criticise an individual who has no right of reply in the House.

I have made my protest and I am satisfied that I have drawn the Land Commission's attention to it. Again, I want to impress on the Commission and on the Minister that every effort should be made to keep people such as the man I have mentioned from purchasing land in a congested area. It is very disheartening for small farmers to find somebody with unlimited means coming in and purchasing a farm that they hope would be divided thus giving them an opportunity to make a decent living by bringing their farms up to an economic size. If this trend is allowed to continue I see no hope for the small farmers in the west of Ireland.

Could we not get together on this because I think there is general agreement on all sides of the House? Let us get together, apart from the Land Commission and other individuals, and try to get the Minister to put what we think is right into operation.

Apparently, the Deputy does not agree with me in this case; he is in favour of the priest getting it.

Do not draw me into this.

The Deputy drew himself into it.

I had nothing at all to do with it.

I should like to refer to land in the hands of the Commission. I am glad there is at least an improvement in this regard in recent years and that the Commission are now in a position to divide land much earlier than heretofore. In my own area in recent years they have been able to dispose of land in two years. This pattern should extend to other areas where apparently it does not apply because I have had reports of the Commission holding land for five or six years. This should be avoided as far as possible. There may be reasons in certain areas for doing this, where for instance the Commission are hoping to acquire further land and so be able to draw up a bigger and better scheme when they have a bigger pool of land available. As far as possible they should allocate the land inside two years.

I am glad to see that the Land Commission are bringing land which is earmarked for allotment up to a proper level of fertility by liming and manuring it. Heretofore these lands were let for a number of years and were run down. When the farmer got them it cost him a lot of money to put them into a proper state of fertility. The Land Commission are now doing this so that the land they are giving out will be in good condition and the farmer will be able to get the best possible production from it. There has also been a big improvement in the houses that the Land Commission are providing. I have seen some of the buildings they have erected and they are a great credit to them.

However, the Land Commission should be slow in migrating the people from the west of Ireland. While Deputy L'Estrange said he welcomed migrants from the west, he thought it would be better if they stayed at home, or something to that effect. We know from experience that the people in the midlands are anxious to retain whatever land is available there for their own congests, and I am sure there are plenty of congests in the midlands as there are in the west. Where large tracts of land are available in Counties Galway, Roscommon or Mayo, the Land Commission should make every effort to buy that land and, if necessary, migrate people from within the county. It would be far better than bringing people from the west to the midlands, whereby the State is helping to denude the western seaboard of its population.

The Minister's scheme of providing part-time employment is the real answer to this problem, but I realise that will take some time to put into operation. We would all love to see the farmers engaging in part-time employment and being able to stay on their small farms. If they had an income from a part-time job they would be able to make their land more productive; they would be able to put more fertiliser into it and stock it better, thus improving their living standards. This is not going to happen overnight, but we hope that eventually we will be able to create employment for these farmers and that we will be able to maintain many more families in the west of Ireland.

That is one of the reasons why I would hate to see the Land Commission pushing people out of the west of Ireland. There are certain areas from which they will have to be migrated, but it is a costly job. If that money were put into acquiring derelict land in the west and getting rid of the fragmentation that exists, it would be put to far better use.

Last year on this Estimate I said I would like to see an increase in the loan made available by the Land Commission for building houses. It was increased to £750 last year but this is still very small. There are still a large number of people with small holdings who require houses. It is a nightmare for these people, with the cost of building materials and labour, trying to build a house and going into debt to do so. There are very few agencies from which they can get money except the Agricultural Credit Corporation. This sum of £750 should be increased to at least £1,000. There are plenty of people who would avail of it because last year, after mentioning this loan on the Estimate, I had a number of inquiries from people who were interested and who did not know this scheme was available at all.

I am very pleased to see that progress is being made in forestry. There is a great deal of bad land available in the west of Ireland that could be acquired for planting. It is a pity to see this land going to waste, and a greater effort should be made by the Forestry Division to see that this land is acquired and planted. It would give very valuable employment in the west of Ireland and would be the basis for some industry at a future date.

I was elected to this House eight years ago yesterday, and annually I stand up here to say a few words on the Estimate for the Department of Lands. A great deal of what I say seems to fall on barren ground. We express our ideas here but the Minister and the Land Commission pay little attention to what we say. Deputy Hussey expressed his opinion on a number of matters, and I am quite sure that the majority of us in the west of Ireland who come up against the same problems would agree on the solution for them. How is it, then, that we cannot get together and put some of our ideas into operation?

We make representations to the Land Commission about a certain matter. We ask them to investigate an estate with a view to acquiring it, but I am not satisfied with the activities of the Land Commission in this regard. There are quite a number of cases I want to raise here this evening, but before I do I wish to refer to a speech the Minister made at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis held in the Mansion House in which he said, as reported in The Irish Press on 19th January, 1970:

A resolution was passed at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis calling on the Government to abolish the Irish Land Commission. Mr. Flanagan said that the time had come to consider whether it should be replaced by some new body.

Mr. Flanagan received a standing ovation when he referred to a Ballyhaunis motion which was carried urging the Government to give immediate effect to the Minister's policy of providing part-time employment for small farmers.

I am sorry to say, it did not go on to elaborate on what his plan was for part-time employment for the small farmers.

Again, I quote:

It is now generally accepted that a viable economic unit must be at least 70 acres of good land. The circumstances of 40 years ago no longer apply and by the 1980s it is likely that an economic farm will be 100 acres or perhaps 150 acres. The policy now must be to retain as many people as possible on the land by whatever means necessary, small industries playing a vital part in this.

Again, the report says:

The Minister calculated the cost of bringing individuals to Dublin and providing facilities there for them at approximately £15,000 to £20,000 per head. They could be kept at home at a sixth of that cost.

The report continues:

We have to create not merely opportunities for the people in rural areas but also a society that would preserve the tradition and the fabric of rural Ireland. In ten years' time, he thought, rural areas could be heavily populated although they were now virtually barren. I do not want them to be populated by dragging people from Holland and Germany, he declared to a cheering delegation and, to conclude with, one delegate who was present said the Flanagan plan could be the salvation of the west of Ireland.

I presume the Minister made a statement to the same effect in the House. Has any effort been made to put any of these ideas into operation, for instance, the suggestion that industry should work hand in hand with agriculture? Of course, industry does not arise for discussion on this Estimate but such a discussion would be relevant, to some extent, having regard to the Minister's statement. Very little has been done to put the Minister's suggestion into operation. If the Minister wants to help rural areas he will have the support of a great many of us. However, I am afraid the Minister's plan consisted of mere promises. As has been said, it was pie in the sky.

Last year, on the Estimate for Lands, I referred to the 130,000 small farmers who live on holdings of between five and 40 acres. What plans have the Land Commission for these men? Deputy Hussey spoke about land that the Land Commission failed to acquire in areas where there are many small farmers. It is the faceless men who decide who should be allowed to buy land, who allow land to be bought by a person who does not belong to the area and who is not a farmer while small farmers in the area are seeking land. It is these faceless men that we cannot get at in order to get an explanation from them as to why decisions were made. If some of the suggestions made by Deputies from both sides of the House were adopted they would go a long way towards a solution of the problem in regard to land.

On a previous Estimate I referred to the fact that the average price of agricultural land was £250 an acre. At that time the average price in EEC countries was £600 an acre. Since then the average price of agricultural land has jumped to £500 an acre. When land was relatively cheap by present day standards, it was regarded as being dear. The Land Commission failed to acquire land at that time because of the price and because the uneconomic holders who would benefit might not have been able to pay the rent demanded. Today the Land Commission pay a much higher price and the same argument applies. It makes one ask the question: what is the role of the Land Commission? Have they any role in regard to land, apart from afforestation? Have they any role to play for the benefit of the farmer, big or small? The land Commission make an effort to acquire all agricultural land offered for sale. They should pay market value for it. They should have a positive role. There is inconsistency in their administration. I give the following example: I put down the following question on 8th November:

To ask the Minister for Lands if he will give a detailed report regarding the sale of an estate (details supplied) in County Galway and its eventual allotment by the Land Commission to a farmer in that locality.

The estate in question was the Mary Keeney estate, Ballinasloe, County Galway.

The Minister replied:

I am informed that the lands in question were advertised for sale by public auction to take place on 24th January, 1972. Prior to the auction— on 13th January, 1972—the Land Commission served a notice, under section 40 of the Land Act, 1923, of their intention to inspect the lands to ascertain their suitability for the purposes of the Land Acts. The service of such a notice prohibited, for a period of at least three months, a sale of the land without the consent in writing of the Land Commission. The auction was held and the lands were purported to be sold. As a result of their inspection, however, the Land Commission decided to institute proceedings for the acquisition of the lands. The relevant statutory notices were published and no objection to the proceedings was lodged. The case then proceeded to the price negotiations stage and at this point the auctioneer acting for the owner informed the Land Commission that an adjoining smallholder was prepared to buy the lands. Having investigated the matter the Land Commission decided to allow sale to the smallholder in question and to terminate their proceedings.

Before I go any further I should like to say in regard to the individual who purchased the land originally, and against whom the Land Commission decided to proceed, neither I nor anybody else has any grudge against him. The same applies to the person in favour of whom the Land Commission eventually withdrew. What I am questioning is this: on the day of the auction one individual bought it but naturally there was a second highest bidder, a third highest bidder, and so on. The person who made application to buy when the Land Commission had proceedings instituted for the acquisition of these lands was not the second highest bidder. I admit he was a small farmer in that locality but the other small farmers, who were as deserving of this land as he was, were not given an opportunity to apply to the Land Commission in the same manner as this man. They had been at the auction but nobody took any notice of them.

I asked a supplementary question as follows:

Is the Minister aware that when this land was offered for public auction quite a number of farmers bid on it, eventually one of them was successful but in the eyes of the Land Commission he was not suitable? After the usual paper work the Land Commission decided that they would acquire the land. They later decided they would not acquire the land because some individual made an application to buy it. Were all those people who bid for that land at the auction not entitled to the same opportunity to buy that land from the Land Commission as the individual in respect of whom the Land Commission sanctioned the sale of the land?

The Minister replied:

I understand the Land Commission decided that the person they ultimately allowed buy the land would, as a result, have an economic holding.

I said:

I agree, but the individual concerned seemed to have been selected by the Land Commission. He made application to buy and they sanctioned the sale to him. What about the other individuals who also bid at the auction? What about the second, the third, and the fourth highest bidder?

At this point the Ceann Comhairle intervened, as is usual at Question Time. I could not find out from the Minister why it was that individual rather than the second highest bidder, who was also a smallholder, or the third or fourth highest bidders. Now I have an opportunity to talk about it and I will talk about it. I want an answer. A few minutes ago Deputy Hussey was speaking about a specific holding and he wanted an answer on it. I am sure he was entitled to it.

He was the only man who made application to the Land Commission.

I know he was the only man who made an application but it is stated here clearly that the Land Commission served a notice, under section 40 of the Land Act, 1923, of their intention to inspect the lands to ascertain their suitability for the purposes of the Land Acts and that the service of such a notice prohibited for a period of at least three months a sale of the land without the consent in writing of the Land Commission. It is possible that three months did elapse before this individual made application to buy but in all the cases I have seen where the Land Commission go after a small place like that they acquire it, as they did in the case of several small holdings in that locality. Why did they pull out of this one? This case smells rotten to me. What pull had this individual with the Land Commission? It is only about 25 acres. Why did somebody else not get it? Why did the Land Commission not acquire it? Have the Land Commission an answer to this?

I asked the Minister whether he would be able to give me an answer if I raised the question in a fortnight's time. It came up, in fact, three weeks later. Again it was the same: there was no answer. The Minister has a number of advisers with him now. If they will look up the records over in Merrion Street they may be able to provide an answer to this. Was it political influence that got this land for this individual? The people in that area would like to know. I believe I am entitled to the answer. I would ask the Minister to tell me what is the position regarding this estate. How is it that the Land Commission have been shown up in such a bad light here? The Land Commission are supposed to solve the problems of small farmers or to make an effort to do so. Nobody in that area would trust the Land Commission in any way on account of the manner in which they conducted themselves in this case. The Minister spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis in 1970. It is difficult to reconcile the sentiments the Minister expressed with what happened here. Although part of the land west of the Shannon is of poor quality, there are many areas where the land is as good as in any part of Ireland but the Land Commission do not appear to make any effort to acquire that land.

Deputy Hussey and myself visited an area called Treen between Williamstown and Ballinlough where we were told there were hundreds of acres of land not being used. People in the area considered the Land Commission should acquire the land and divide it. This would solve many problems for the farmers in the area——

What is the market value of the land?

About £300 an acre.

I have put down more questions in connection with the division of estates than any other Deputy. Recently Deputy O'Donovan's attitude has been that perhaps I am not entitled to ask these questions.

No, I have never said that. I wanted to know why the Land Commission are distributing ten or 15 acres.

What does the Deputy expect them to do?

The Deputy is asking them to acquire ten or 15 acres and to distribute it.

That seems to be the end of the Coalition.

I do not think the Labour Party have much support west of the Shannon.

I think many Labour Deputies share my view. The case I am making is that many small holdings of land are left unoccupied. I realise that sometimes it is difficult to trace the owners but I do not think the Land Commission are taking any steps in the matter. If all the land were acquired and divided there would not be any need for the Government to pay unemployment assistance. Small farmers west of the Shannon want more land but the Land Commission are not helping them——

Are they prepared to pay £300 per acre?

If they had the money they would buy the land but they do not have the funds. Perhaps Deputy O'Donovan thinks all the small farmers in the west have as much money as he has. It might not worry Deputy O'Donovan to have to pay £3,000 for ten acres of land but these small farmers have not got this kind of money.

I am a most appropriate member of the Labour Partly—I have no money.

I do not want any one to cast aspersions on these farmers. Perhaps it is not their choice that they live in these areas but they must make the best of it. The Land Commission should do all they can on behalf of those people but they are not doing this.

Are there no farmers in the Galway area or in Connaught generally who can look after themselves in this matter?

The Deputy does not realise the size of County Galway. Recently a Deputy put down a Parliamentary Question to the Minister for Lands in connection with an estate; as it happened the estate comprised 299 acres. There are farmers in Galway who have holdings of 1,000 acres. For the information of the Deputy, not all of them are small farmers.

Is there any reason why the State should buy land for them?

I would ask Deputy O'Donovan to allow the Deputy in possession to continue without interruption.

The trouble is that Deputy O'Donovan does not understand the problem. If the Deputy lived among these people he would see it was necessary——

The Minister agrees with me but he has not the gumption to say so.

Gumption is one thing I do not lack.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 12th December, 1972.
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