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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1972

Vol. 264 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Public Money Accounting System.

15.

asked the Minister for Finance whether he has made any changes in the system of accounting for public money following on the report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the uses made of moneys voted by the Dáil for the relief of distress in Northern Ireland.

The recommendations of the Committee of Public Accounts are being examined by my Department in consultation with other Departments.

Will the Minister not agree that, considering the importance of the recommendations in the report, it is somewhat anomalous that this report which came out in July has not yet been discussed in the Dáil? Would the Minister agree to support the motion put forward by Deputy Corish and myself that this matter should be discussed within one month of the resumption of the Dáil in the New Year?

There was a time when I would have said the Deputy is not as naïve as that but I am not prepared to say that today.

What is naïve about it?

Will the Minister not admit that on a matter of such major importance there should have been major action by the Government? Is the Minister not aware that money voted for the relief of distress in Northern Ireland instead caused distress in Northern Ireland? Surely the Minister is aware that £40,000 of that money was misappropriated and was used to purchase arms? According to the report of the Public Accounts Committee, on which Fianna Fáil members had a majority, another £30,000 at least was spent in Belfast in forming the Provisional IRA and the Official IRA——

This does not arise on this question as we are not discussing that particular aspect. The question deals with changes in the system of accounting.

In view of what has appeared as a result of the report of the Public Accounts Committee and the misappropriation of £70,000 of the taxpayers' money——

It does not arise on the question. The Deputy cannot discuss these matters.

Surely the Minister will agree that immediate action should have been taken to rectify——

The Deputy should behave himself. The Deputy is completely out of order. The Deputy may not continue in this fashion and I will ask him to resume his seat.

I will not resume my seat. A sum of £70,000 of the taxpayers' money has been used to murder fellow-Irishmen and to start a civil war——

Will the Deputy please cease shouting at the Chair? The Deputy is not speaking at a street corner.

The Minister knows all about low standards in high places.

The Deputy is misleading the House. He is misquoting the report.

I certainly am not. Money was given to form the Provisional IRA, money was given to start the Official IRA. The Government know that and they are responsible for the conditions that exist in Northern Ireland and in the Twenty-six Counties.

(Interruptions.)

The Government should be ashamed of themselves— the recent converts to law and order.

I am asking the Deputy to resume his seat.

I will not resume my seat. What has happened in this country is disgraceful. A sum of £70,000 of the taxpayers' money has been misappropriated but the Government have not taken any action.

This is a smokescreen to take the heat off the Deputy's party.

It is no smokescreen.

The Deputy's bluff was called last week. The public know what Deputy L'Estrange's rantings mean.

As far as I am concerned I stood up against lawlessness in this country when Jack Lynch would do nothing——

What about the Bill? Why did the Deputy not vote for the Bill?

(Interruptions.)

I spoke about the IRA and the drift to anarchy. The Taoiseach used mimic me up to six months ago but he does not do that now. He used mimic what I said about the drift to anarchy——

(Interruptions.)

In view of this disorder I am adjourning the House until 3.15 p.m.

Business suspended at 2.55 p.m. and resumed at 3.15 p.m.

A Cheann Comhairle, when the House adjourned I had put a question to the Minister for Finance. I had asked him would he deny that £40,000 of this money was misappropriated and went for the purchase of arms——

The Deputy will please resume his seat.

——and that a further £30,000 could not be accounted for——

Would the Deputy please resume his seat?

——and that it is assumed——

I am asking Deputy L'Estrange to resume his seat and to act in an orderly manner.

——that this money went towards the establishment of the Provisional IRA and——

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

I want to know——

In view of this continuing disorder by Deputy L'Estrange, I am adjourning the House until 3.30 p.m.

Business suspended at 3.16 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.

Question No. 16.

When you so abruptly——

Question No. 16.

——adjourned this House I was questioning the Minister for Finance, to know was it true that £40,000——

I have not received any——

——of taxpayer's money was misappropriated——

Will the Deputy please resume his seat?

——that £40,000 could not be accounted for.

I must call for the Deputy's removal from the House.

I move: "That Deputy L'Estrange be suspended from the service of the House."

Question put and declared carried.

If the Minister had taken action in the last six months——

I ask the Deputy to leave the House.

I have no intention of leaving the House. I think it is disgraceful that £40,000 of the people's money has been misappropriated and that another £30,000 has gone to the IRA.

I ask the Captain to remove Deputy L'Estrange from the House.

There is no explanation——

Is this to be allowed?

Is the Minister to fail to give any explanation of what happened to the £70,000 of the people's money?

Deputies

Out, out, out.

I have no intention of leaving. £70,000 has gone——

Will you sit down.

——to finance the Provisional IRA.

The sitting is suspended until 3.45.

Business suspended at 3.35 p.m. and resumed at 3.45 p.m.

Question No. 16.

On a point of clarification——

There is no point of clarification. Question No. 16.

Could I ask the Minister for Finance whether he feels in honour bound to give a more adequate explanation to the questions put by Deputy L'Estrange who was forced to leave the House by reason of the inadequacy of the Minister's reply?

We cannot discuss the Deputy's expulsion.

Deputy Power was ruled out.

Will Deputy O'Leary resume his seat? We must have some order in Parliament. I have called Question No. 16.

On a point of order, I intended to ask a supplementary question and you actually called me, a Cheann Comhairle, while you were dealing with Deputy L'Estrange and, during the fracas. I did not get any opportunity of asking it.

Will the Deputy put his question?

I had hoped that Deputy Cruise-O'Brien who put down Question No. 15 would be here to give us a certain amount of information, because I read a statement in the Cork Examiner of 11th December attributed to Deputy Thornley——

The Deputy is only adding to the disorder.

He is taking over from Deputy Foley.

——and in that article he referred——

Will the Deputy please resume his seat? I will have to adjourn the Dáil again if this disorder continues. I have called Question No. 16.

Is it correct for the Minister to refuse to give the information which Deputy L'Estrange was seeking?

Deputy L'Estrange was out of order in asking the question, and the Deputy should not add to the disorder we have had here this evening.

Why did the Deputy not support Deputy L'Estrange to a division?

The Minister for Finance has a responsibility——

Why did the Deputy not support Deputy L'Estrange when it came to the challenge?

The point is that the Minister refused to give the information which is vital to the nation— £70,000 misappropriated.

Will Deputy Harte behave himself?

Of course, I will behave myself.

Will the Deputy please sit down then?

I should like to ask the Minister——

The Deputy may not ask anything. I have called Question No. 16.

Will the Minister not give the information which Deputy L'Estrange was seeking?

(Interruptions.)

Order. This is not a street corner.

No, but some street corners are better conducted than the way you conduct this House.

That is the remark of a corner boy.

The Deputy is a corner boy and he has plenty of mates over there. He is in good company.

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