Votes 43 and 44 will be discussed together.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Defence.
I move:
That a sum not exceeding £34,172,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain Services administered by that Office for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
Before coming to the details of the Defence Estimate I would like to refer to things as I found them and particularly to the excellent manner in which all the components of the Defence Forces—the Regulars, the Army Nursing Service, the First Line Reserves, the FCA and the Slua Muirí—are carrying out their many and often demanding duties. Unfortunately these demands are continuing and with the present strengths, it is necessary to keep some of the First Line Reserve on full-time duty and to call on the FCA to do duty at week-ends and other times when they can be available. Recruiting, is, however, continuing and the capability of the Army is steadily improving. The health of the troops is good, discipline is satisfactory and morale is high.
The strength of non-commissioned officers and privates, excluding cadets, is at present 9,358 and this Estimate provides for an average strength of 10,250. This is not of course the strength we are aiming at, but with present recruiting trends it is a realistic estimate of the average strength we expect to get. The contribution to the United Nations peace-keeping efforts, the necessity to guard vital installations and the duties arising from events in the Six Counties, all make the increased strength necessary. Here I may say that recruiting during the past few years has been reasonably good. The net strength rose by approximately 2,000 men since March, 1970. We are grateful for that. But many more men are needed if the burden on our troops is to be eased and the security arrangements made as effective as possible. I would appeal to every Member of the House and, through the House, to every person who values our democratic way of life, to lend a hand in the task of further strengthening the Army so that it can effectively play its part in preserving law and order and ensuring the right of people to live their lives without fear of violence, intimidation or lawlessness. Young men who join the Army will have the satisfaction of knowing that they are rendering an important service to their country. These are the patriots and we must all thank them. There is no better place for a young man than the Army, and no place where at this time he can better serve his country. National security is our greatest need.
We continue to maintain a contingent of 142 officers and men in Cyprus and a group of 21 officers with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation in the Middle East. These personnel perform their duties in an exemplary fashion and continue to be our worthy representatives abroad. We hope their presence will contribute to a lasting peace in these areas. The extra costs incurred in respect of our contingent in Cyprus are, of course, proper to the United Nations. Claims totalling £3.35 million have been presented and £2.99 million have been recovered so far, leaving a balance of £.36 million outstanding. All possible steps are being taken to have the position improved.
I mentioned earlier the heavy demands being made on the Defence Forces in the present situation. These include duties in the Border areas, which are still onerous because of the situation in the Six Counties. Military bomb disposal personnel are made available to deal with planted bombs.
As a security measure, industrial explosives are stored in a number of military posts and are moved, as required, under military or Garda escort. The personnel engaged on these and other duties arising from the present exceptional conditions are performing their tasks with dedication and courage, often under difficult and trying circumstances.
As Deputies are aware, pursuant to the Prisons Act, 1972, a number of civilian prisoners are held in military custody at the Military Detention Barracks in the Curragh Training Camp. At present the number is 40 and these are all sentenced prisoners. Under the Act, the regulations in relation to the custody of these prisoners, which, incidentally, is entirely a military responsibility, must correspond to the rules for the time being in force in respect of civil prisons. My Department maintain very close liaison with the Department of Justice in this matter.
Criticisms have been made of conditions at the Military Detention Barracks. I have taken note of these criticisms and have visited and inspected the barracks.
The instruction on food is that the same food is supplied, governed only by prison regulations, and cooked in the same manner as in Army messes, by cooks qualified in the Army School of Cookery.
The Detention Barracks suffers from one major disability only, and that is that it was never intended for prisoners who would be confined there all day but, instead, for Army detainees who during the day would be occupied away from the prison on tasks anywhere within the entire Curragh complex. The day-room accommodation is, therefore, somewhat cramped. However, facilities for games, lectures, hobbies and entertainments including television are available.
Criticism has also been voiced of the fact that non-supervised visits are not allowed. I am satisfied, on serious and protracted investigation, that unsupervised visits would be entirely prejudicial to security, and I therefore cannot allow them.
I was dissatisfied with toilet accommodation on the ground floor and instructed that it be improved.
On taking up my duties as Minister for Defence I found that the Visiting Committee had reduced in number to half the maximum, with a further member's resignation on my desk, and I accordingly brought the committee up to its full complement of 12 members.
The net Estimate for Defence at £34.2 million shows an increase of £3.9 million on that for 1972-73, including a Supplementary Estimate of £3.9 million. The increases in subhead A— Office of the Minister for Defence and subhead F—Civilians attached to Units—are due mainly to pay revisions in the last financial year, together with anticipated increases under the national pay agreement.
The biggest increase, £1.8 million, is in subhead B—Pay of the Permanent Defence Force—and is due mainly to increased strength and pay revisions. The average strength of non-commissioned officers and privates provided for is 10,250. The corresponding figure last year was 9,500. Pay increases for the Public Service are applied to the Defence Forces and provision for increases granted last year is made in this Estimate, together with anticipated increases under the national pay agreement. The application to the Forces of the 1st phase of the second national agreement (14th Round) will take effect from the 1st June, 1973. The detailed arrangements for the application of this phase have not yet been finalised but I can say that the single recruit, who is at present paid almost £18 a week all found, will have his pay increased to about £20.70 a week, all found. This revised rate must be regarded as attractive for any young man who wishes to enlist in the Permanent Defence Force and I hope for even a better response to recruiting arising from this improvement in pay.
Equipment and stores purchased in recent years covered a wide spectrum and have resulted in a marked improvement in the supply position, particularly in relation to the vital areas of defensive equipment, transport and signal equipment. The growing capability of the Defence Forces will receive a further boost from the substantial purchases for which provision is made in the Estimate before the House.
Deputies will recall my predecessor's announcement in the House that he hoped to have a certain type of armoured vehicle manufactured in this country. As well as being advantageous militarily, this project would confer economic benefits on the State and it is being actively pursued. I would like it to be understood, however, that this does not mean that I expect to be able to get supplies of Irish manufactured armoured vehicles in the present financial year. The initial step in the project, the design of a prototype, has been completed and the first experimental vehicle will be available shortly. This will have to be thoroughly tested and any necessary modifications incorporated in a second and a third vehicle before arriving at the stage of development where drawings and specifications to enable commercial production of the vehicles to be undertaken can be settled. Steady progress has been made in the project but it will be appreciated that planning and development work is a tedious, exacting process.
The position in regard to transport has improved steadily and I am glad to say that further substantial purchases will be made this year.
As Deputies are aware, a new uniform cloth was produced last year for the Army and the F.C.A. Issues of uniforms made up in this cloth have commenced. Other improvements, including a better type beret, are on the way. The issue of combat uniforms, which was initially confined to personnel engaged on special duties and training, has now become more widespread. A substantial provision for them has been made in this year's Estimate and large numbers are on order from an Irish manufacturer.
Particular attention has been given recently to the needs of the Air Corps. During the past year eight light Army co-operation aircraft were purchased and two additional helicopters were supplied to the Helicopter Section, which is giving such a good account of itself on ambulance and rescue work, as well as carrying out military missions. Provision is made this year for two military aircraft and an additional helicopter. The helicopter fleet will then stand at seven. May I say a sincere thanks to the men of the Helicopter Air/Sea Rescue Service for their work on a certain occasion, and say that their contribution to every person who may need them, is of the highest order and worthy of everyone's appreciation.
A major building programme designed to improve accommodation and which, incidentally, contributes towards creating employment, was commenced last year and is being continued during the present financial year. Many worthwhile new projects are already well under way such as the erection of 70 houses for married soldiers—50 at the Curragh and 20 at Athlone, where sites were readily available—the construction of new billet buildings for young soldiers of the Army Apprentice School at Naas and new billets in Longford.
In line with modern trends, all these new buildings will be centrally heated. I might mention that the houses which are being built at the Curragh are almost ready for occupation and work on the houses being built at Athlone will be completed in the present financial year. The first stage of new premises for cadets and young officers attending University College, Galway, was completed some months ago, and it is intended to have the complete modern-style sleeping, dining and amenity complex for these students finished by the end of 1973. Cavan Barracks is receiving special attention and major works of improvement were recently commenced there. Concurrently with these and many other new building projects, the programme of improvements to existing accommodation, which has been going on steadily over the years, is getting a special impetus. Among the works of improvement to be continued under this programme will be the modernisation of billets for single men. Many of the billets have already been greatly improved by dividing the communal sleeping accommodation into cubicles to give more comfort and a degree of privacy. Better lighting, including bedhead lights, has been installed. More jobs of this type will be done during the year in billets already occupied, and improvements in living conditions by way of the provision of modern sanitary and ablution facilities will also continue.
Provision has also been made for a major programme of central heating of billets at various barracks and most of the preparatory work needed to get the programme under way has been completed. In the current Estimate provision is made for the commencement of a programme of improvements to Army canteens. In order to cater for the increased strength during the year it is necessary to allocate a substantial provision for the purchase of household-type items, including dining hall and billet furniture. The furniture in the individual cubicles comprises a wardrobe, bedside locker and rug, as well, of course, as a bed, and bedding. The mattresses are modern, comfortable, foam mattresses. The old type fibre ones are no longer being bought and are being phased out.
The question of building new barracks has been referred to on a number of occasions in the context of disposing of one or more of the existing barracks in Dublin. While the pressure for accommodation lasts it will not be possible to dispose of any of the existing barracks until new accommodation is available. The position is being kept under review and the planning work is proceeding, but beyond that I cannot at the moment promise early developments, desirable though the project is. Deputies may take it, nevertheless, that the question of disposing of valuable Dublin property, and the replacement of it by modern barracks outside the capital, is a major Defence decision towards which I will be strenuously proceeding.
On a number of occasions it has been mentioned in the House that we have a problem in getting sufficient officers for the executive branch of the Naval Service. Recently six were appointed to short-service commissions and three others will be offered appointments in the near future, but we need more officers. The terms of these appointments are quite attractive and include a £2,000 gratuity after three years' service.
Our naval force has at times been the butt of humorists and satirists, but they have been wrong in their assumptions. The provision of a naval force on the scale sufficient to patrol our length of coastline is beyond the financial capabilities of this country, but that does not mean that we must cast it summarily aside. It must take its place, and a larger place, in the work of guarding our country's security. By their behaviour and ability, its officers and ratings show ready aptitude to take that greater place.
Slua Muirí can be a training ground for potential naval cadets, and a help to the entire service. I will be looking very seriously at how I can develop Slua Muirí in the months ahead. Such development must take place, or this important training ground will die a natural or, depending how you look at it, an unnatural death.
The Claudia incident is sub judice and, therefore, not proper for comment by members or by myself.
Courses of training continue to be provided in the Military College for officer cadets of the Zambia Army. At present there are 20 such cadets undergoing training. The cost of these courses is met by the Government of Zambia. This is the fourth group of Zambia cadets to receive training here.
While military duty must come first, and these duties are heavy at present, general educational courses continue to be provided. Leaving certificate courses of two years' duration are provided and 15 men sat for the examination in June, 1972, six of whom were successful. Twenty men began the course in 1972. Day group certificate courses of one year continue to be popular and of the 42 men who did the examination in June of last year 35 were successful. Seventy-five men are at present undergoing this course. These courses are distinct from the full-time apprentice courses at Naas Barracks and Casement Aerodrome. There are 159 apprentices at the Army Apprentice School, Naas, and 79 at the Air Corps Apprentice School, Baldonnel.
My paramount desire would be that recruits would emerge from our armed forces with a trade, or a profession, to raise their living standard and place in society after their Army career. Such is not possible for all. Some do not desire it and the everyday profession of arms has its everyday duties that preclude study and additional instruction for all, but I will be looking at the situation to see how we can materially thank those real patriots who have given of themselves for the Irish nation.
A more positive effort is being made this year by all Army units to be involved in local community sports and cultural activities. It is hoped to have Army teams participating in games of all codes. An Army team are all-Ireland volleyball champions. With the additional recruits, improvement is expected all round. Young soldiers will, of course, be encouraged to take part, both as teams and individuals, in local sports fixtures. Physical training displays will also be provided where possible. Officers and men are encouraged to take part in suitable local activities. This is already happening in many areas. It is hoped to have some massed band performances and gymnastic displays again this year. These events are popular, but it is not possible to meet all demands for them. Permission for the use of facilities in various military establishments has been granted from time to time to many sporting and recreational bodies.
I am at the moment devising a scheme to enable commanding officers to hire sporting facilities outside barracks for soldiers, such as football pitches where they are not available inside, use of swimming pools and swimming tuition, use of badminton halls and sports clubs on certain evenings, and the provision of sporting equipment. I would be less than honest if I did not say that my first reaction to the considerable dearth of such facilities is that all ranks must get together to further sport and recreation within the camaraderie that is so helpful in this respect, with the full backing of myself.
During 1972 riders and horses of the Equitation School competed at international shows at Nice—where an Army rider won the award for best individual rider—Rome, Amsterdam, Zuidlaren, London and Dublin. An Army rider was included in the national team which took part in the three-day event at the Munich Olympics. The total prize money won by the school during 1972 was £4,400 approximately. Facilities at the Army Equitation School are being made available to Bord na gCapall. A new trainer of international repute has been engaged by the Bord and his services will be shared by the school on a repayment basis.
There is full co-operation between Bord na gCapall and the Army Equitation School. That does not mean, and shall not mean, that the illustrious Army Equitation School is to be allowed to die. I am looking forward to my first meeting with the members of Bord na gCapall.
With regard to Civil Defence, the Estimate, subhead G, follows the same general pattern as in previous years.
The training of Civil Defence volunteers continues at local training centres throughout the country and at weekend camps which are run annually by many counties. Field days are organised in many places and exercises and competitions which are held by all counties are well supported.
Deputies will recall the origins of Civil Defence. The final stages of World War II brought forcibly to the attention of all countries the need for a Civil Defence system against the possibility of a future war, especially an all-out nuclear war. It was generally realised then that an organisation of this kind would have to become an integral and necessary part of a country's total defence system, irrespective of whether or not the country would be a participant itself in hostilities. For these reasons the Government decided that a Civil Defence organisation should be maintained as an essential part of our own national defence.
The primary aim of Civil Defence is to protect people and property against hazards arising from a war, as well as to limit the damage ensuing and mitigate the war's effects. It was considered that this could best and most economically be achieved in this country, first, by forward planning of emergency measures to enable the community to survive and resume activity after the worst was over; and, secondly, by the setting up of a country-wide organisation of volunteers trained in the essential tasks of fire-fighting, rescue, first aid, care of the homeless, emergency feeding and communications.
Over the years we have endeavoured, with the resources at our disposal, to build up an effective Civil Defence organisation on the basis which I have mentioned and there is little doubt but that we have met with more than moderate success. At the present time, the organisation is in a very healthy condition throughout the country. We have currently more than 23,000 active volunteers who have joined and who give part of their spare time and their talents willingly and generously to training and taking part in exercises. We should be grateful that there are those amongst us who are willing to do this so that they would be of the greatest possible assistance to the community in an emergency or war situation.
In addition to its primary function, Civil Defence has also peace-time uses. There is always the risk of disasters of one kind or another when the knowledge and skill of trained Civil Defence personnel could be the means of mitigating suffering and even of saving life; and there are the inevitable day-to-day accidents when the prompt action of a trained and knowledgeable good neighbour could be beyond price. In 1972, for the fourth year in succession, there was another major influx of refugees from Northern Ireland and on this occasion the whole operation was handled by the Civil Defence organisation. It had been decided early in 1972 that, for military reasons, the Army would not be asked to undertake the care of refugees in any future Northern refugee situation, and all local authorities had accordingly been asked to make contingency plans for the reception and care of refugees, utilising their Civil Defence services. Regional health boards cooperated with local authorities in this planning.
The 1972 refugee situation commenced when refugees began coming over the Border just before the 12th July. The peak figure was reached on the 15th July, when 5,308 refugees were accommodated under official auspices in the State. Approximately 9,800 refugees in all were handled during the months of July and August. The 1972 operation was a major undertaking and every local authority in the country was involved. It was handled with commendable efficiency due to the soundness of the pre-planning and the will with which all concerned tackled the tasks which had to be carried out.
The Civil Defence organisation fully displayed its value to the State by its expert handling of the 1972 Northern refugee situation. The purposeful operations of its members, their discipline and the fact that they knew precisely how to go about what had to be done made what was, indeed, a major national task appear simple.
I should like to express my appreciation and gratitude to all who helped directly or indirectly to make the 1972 refugee handling operation the success that it undoubtedly was. In these I include all the county and city managers in the State, the chief executive officers of regional health boards, the Civil Defence officers and volunteers, members of voluntary aid societies, particularly the Red Cross which, in addition to their general humanitarian work, provided special comforts for the refugees, and the staff of Córas Iompair Éireann, as well as religious communities and various organisations and individuals who generously made accommodation available for the refugees.
We also had, I regret to say, some distressing bombing incidents in Dublin and in some of the Border counties when Civil Defence was called upon to put its expertise to practical use. I sincerely hope that no further incidents of this kind will occur but, should they happen, it is some comfort to know that we have an organised body of voluntary personnel trained, equipped and ready to render practical and expert assistance to those who may be trapped or injured.
The Army Pensions Estimate which is also coming before the House is for a nett sum of £7,763,000 an increase of £1,542,000 on last year's Vote as increased by a Supplementary Vote of £50,000 and by the transfer of £717,990 from the Vote for Pension Increases.
Over £400,000 of this increase is attributable to the provision for payment, with effect from the 1st October next, of pensions and allowances revised by reference to the rates of pay in force in the public service on the 1st June. The increase will be of the order of 14 per cent.
As regards specific subheads, I should like to refer to subhead C— Allowances and Gratuities to Dependants. There are at present 4,200 widows of military service pensioners in receipt of an allowance equal to onehalf of their deceased husbands' military service pensions increased to current rates with a minimum of £70.56 per annum. The average allowance is £110. In addition to announcing the scheme in the press and radio the departmental records of all deceased military service pensioners were examined and widows who had not applied were notified of their eligibility under this scheme. It is gratifying to realise that many widows who were not aware of their entitlement were found as a result of this research.
The next subhead with a significant increase is subhead E—Defence Force (Pensions) Scheme. £189,000 of the increase here is due to bringing these pensions up to the rates as on 1st June. The balance of the increase, almost £446,000, is for new pensions and gratuities in this financial year. Deputies may rest assured that the retired pay and pensions code applicable to the Permanent Defence Force will be kept under constant review and that any improvements which are necessary and feasible will receive my most earnest attention.
As regards subhead H, the numbers of special allowances granted to veterans of the War of Independence seems to have reached a peak. At present the number is just below 11,000 and the annual increases in numbers which were a feature of past years seems over.
Finally, the cost of the concessions in relation to free travel and free electricity allowances will increase by £143,000 this year to almost £430,000.
If there are any other points on which Deputies would like further details I hope to give the information when replying to the debate.
First, I should like to wish the new Minister every success in his appointment. The Department of Defence is a very important one and I can assure him from my experience that he is dealing with a very efficient department, very efficient Defence Forces and a combination which will give him absolutely satisfactory service. I hope the uplift which the Department and the Defence Forces have been enjoying in recent times will be maintained by the Minister. I am inclined to accept that they will be in view of the comments he has made in his Estimate speech.
I feel entitled to recount some of the benefits which have come to the Department of Defence in recent times by way of pay increases. There were phase increases in 1969, 1970, 1971 and 1973. I am pleased to hear that the Minister intends to put the next pay increase into effect in June and that he has made provision for that. Further special adjustments in pay were made from the 1st July, 1972 in the sector of long serving senior NCOs.
Other recent improvements brought about were for officers, the grant of annual instead of two yearly increments, the introduction of arrangements based on civil service rules for starting pay and promotion to commandant and upwards, increases and provisions for regular review in allowances to officers assigned for duty in the FCA et cetera. There were also increases in gratuities, payable to temporary naval officers, the payment of marine pay to executive branch naval officers. The Minister, will, therefore, see that he has a high standard to uphold and I have no doubt he will do so.
At the level of NCOs and privates there has been a consolidation of pay for married men, payment of full marriage rates to widows, ration allowance increases, increases and provision for regular review in the allowances to NCOs and privates assigned for duty with the FCA et cetera and the general payment of special allowances to staff at the military detention barracks in the Curragh Training Camp and to personnel on the Border. The Border concession was made some time around last Christmas. There have also been increases in the rates of annual grants payable to members of the first line reserve and exemption of such payments from income tax. There have also been increases in annual grants to members of the FCA and An Slua Muiri.
That is the history of the recent pay increases but as well as that there have been substantial additions to defence equipment by way of transport, armoured vehicles and so on. For obvious reasons it is not customary to disclose the actual details of the type of defence equipment held or being purchased. Two of the developments which are noteworthy and which were referred to by the Minister are the production of a prototype armoured car which I am pleased to note the Minister adopts. This will not alone be a useful and a good economic contribution to the military and to the Department of Defence but it will also be a contribution towards the national economy.
I understand this type of vehicle has various possibilities and uses and that it can be converted for commercial as well as for military use. I understand the vehicle will form the basis for a very versatile type of transport. I am pleased that the Minister is proceeding with it and I wish the project every success.
Two transport lorries have been purchased. The old lorries were replaced over the past year. The process is still going ahead and new vehicles are being purchased as indicated in the Estimate statement. Purchases for the Air Corps include eight light army co-operation aircraft with a training capability and a further three helicopters making six in all. This has been a very worthwhile contribution to the Air Corps.
The Naval Service had its share in the purchase of three minesweepers. It was a source of disappointment to me to find that this purchase was so often criticised by the Minister's party when in opposition. They said we got very bad value, that they were not effective and that the navy would, perhaps, be better off without them. They were the subject of many questions in the House and considerable adverse comment by the Members of the Minister's party at the time. Nevertheless, in a recent operation off the south coast it was seen that these vessels played a very important role in the successful apprehension of a vessel. We should have heard enough criticism of these coastal mine sweepers. They have proved a useful acquisition and I should like to see the Minister procuring more vessels of that type.
I look forward to the purchase of a sister for the fishery protection vessel, Déirdre, which also played a very important role, I believe, in the operation to which I referred. In view of the Minister's comments and, indeed, very enthusiastic reaction to the success of the south coast operation, I am sure he will put a lot of money and a lot of effort into giving substantial encouragement to the Naval Service by way of tangible help in the form of more and better vessels. The Naval Service is very important. They have performed a useful task in fishery protection and in security. Too often it is assumed that their job is mainly that of fishery protection.
The recent incident showed their real value as a Naval Force. This role was performed very efficiently. It might be further extended to the apprehension of smugglers or any illegal traffic within our territorial waters. I regret to note that the Minister has decided that reference to the Claudia incident is forbidden and not acceptable. This is very disappointing because the country at large want to know what really happened, why a vessel in our territorial waters was not held for questioning in the circumstances and why it should be just pushed off.
The Deputy appreciates that a ruling has been made that the matter will not be referred to.
In that case, are we to assume that any shipper is entitled or free to come within our sovereign territory and trade with illegal arms or shipments with no risk at all to himself? This is what, in substance, the action of the Government and of the Minister for Defence means.
If the matter is sub judice it may not be referred to.
What particular matter is sub judice?
It has been mentioned that the matter is sub judice.
I am inquiring as to what particular matter is sub judice.
The Chair has been informed that the matter is sub judice and that is as far as the Chair is concerned.
That is the answer.
Has somebody been charged?
Yes.
There will be no discussion further than that.
I can understand that when somebody is charged with an offence that that particular matter is sub judice. Surely we are entitled to discuss this particular naval operation as such?
No, the Deputy may not.
On what basis?
The Chair is not questioning these matters. The matter has been said to be sub judice and that is that.
Do I take it that the Chair has been directed on this from the Minister's brief or that the Minister has given a direction?
The Deputy knows that is not true. The Deputy knows that if there is a person charged it has always been the position that the matter was not discussed.
The Attorney General has given advice to that effect.
Can we discuss the military operation in relation to the Claudia? No charge is pending against military personnel?
No.
Surely we can discuss the military operation that took place in relation to the capture of the Claudia?
Does the Deputy wish to have an effect on a court case which is pending?
The Chair is not going to have a discussion about the matter with either the Minister or the Deputies.
I must be critical of the Minister. He showed a scant regard for the ultimate proceedings by his comments and instant judgment on the occasion of the apprehension of the Claudia. If anyone prejudiced the case, that was how it was done. I am surprised that a discussion is not permitted in the House.
Any comments made by me were made before anybody was charged. When somebody is charged the matter is sub judice.
On a point of order, I want to know what the ruling is. I do not wish to question it. It is very important that we should know the ruling. I am not to be taken as offering criticism, but the Minister made some public statements of considerable public interest and importance. These statements are on record and were the subject of discussion outside the House. Are we to take it now that this Legislature, the supreme authority in the State, is debarred from discussing the public statements made by the Minister in those circumstances? I concede completely that if there is somebody charged and the House is discussing something relevant to the charge, the House would agree not to discuss such matter if the issue was properly put before the Deputies but as a Deputy I wish to record emphatically, as a point of order, my protest against such rulings, whether from the Attorney General or anybody else, or even from the Chair because the Chair is the Chair of this House and this House is the supreme authority. We can do this by agreement but I do not think that this House should be dictated to either by an official, a Minister or even by the Chair. I make that as a point of order. I want it on the record. I bow completely at the moment because there is another way of dealing with it.
The Chair understands that this matter is bound up with a charge against an individual and as such may not be referred to.
I want to be helpful and to keep within the rules of order of the House. As an ordinary back-bench Deputy I am seeking information from the Chair as to what precisely is sub judice so that I must not refer to it.
What the Chair was telling the Deputy in possession was that reference to this matter at present is bound up with a charge against an individual and as such should not be referred to in the House.
The Deputy knows that that might be disposed of in a short time and then the matter would not be sub judice. It is only a matter of waiting some days.
The Deputies are having a discussion in a question and answer way at the moment. Deputy Cronin.
A Deputy
You were not half as ready to talk about things like that when you were in office.
We have a different duty now.
If we cannot speak about it inside the House, I will speak about it outside the House.
The Chair is only concerned with what happens in the House.
This is the first occasion when a ministerial directive to the Chair has come in a brief.
What does the Deputy wish to do at this stage? When the Deputy comes to speak he can deal with the Minister's brief.
I will deal with the Claudia too.
If the present occupant of the Chair is here, he will not.
(Interruptions.)
While I am referring to the incident in question, I will not infringe in any way the ruling of the Chair. I want to refer to another development which took place following on the incident on the south coast at Helvick, and that was the declaration of the Minister for Defence that he and his Government were a party of law and order and would uphold law and order. Three weeks afterwards a contingent, including some wanted personnel, paraded through Fermoy and held a public meeting in the vicinity of the cemetery. I am quite sure that the Minister is fully aware that this happened and of the people present. The individuals showed scant regard for the Minister's solemn declaration of a few weeks earlier. It is a source of disappointment to have to accept that situation. On many occasions Deputy L'Estrange in particular nearly went berserk about the presence of people in para-military uniforms at parades when the Fianna Fáil Government were in office and because they were never "brought to book". The new Coalition law and order Government, however, fell down utterly on the job at the first challenge that came along. I am a fair-minded and peaceful man and I want to see law and order upheld. It is proper that I should make these observations. I was disappointed.
The purchase of new uniforms was a worthwhile acquisition for the Defence Forces in recent times. The Minister referred to this in his Estimate Speech. This has added to the image and prestige of the Defence Forces. Better weapons have been procured. Accommodation generally has been looked after. Nevertheless, there are still many shortcomings in the matter of accommodation, particularly in the Border areas. The Government are well aware of this. Improvements are urgently needed before the winter, especially in Cavan and Finner camps and full details concerning these matters are available in the Department. In addition, posts along the Border are in need of improvement.
I am glad to note that the plan I initiated during my period in office to build a new military barracks as a replacement for some of the military property in Dublin city is being adopted by the Minister. I appreciate it will be a tedious and slow operation but I would exhort him to proceed with the work with the utmost haste. The Cathal Brugha barracks is a rambling, old military complex and is unsuited for a modern Army. A preliminary report on the location and layout of the new barracks was carried out and it is at the disposal of the Minister. The new complex would be all a modern army would require. Not alone would it provide much needed accommodation for military personnel of the type they are entitled to get, but it would also vacate a valuable property in Dublin which could be developed for commercial purposes or for schools or other similar institutions. Thus it would serve a twofold purpose in that the military would benefit as would the people of Dublin by the availability of a suitable development area.
It is right and proper that the Defence Forces which are the bulwark of the State should be provided with all modern amenities. In recent times requirements on the Defence Forces have been most pressing but at all times they have shown themselves to be dependable and loyal and this was evident in their duties along the Border. Since the Northern troubles took a turn for the worse in August, 1969, demands on all the services attached to the Department of Defence have grown out of all proportion. Border posts have had to be manned involving long hours of duty, major installations have had to be protected and military posts have had to have special guards. All of these duties were readily and diligently carried out by the Defence Forces and we can be proud of them.
I should like to pay a tribute to the FCA for the manner in which they have carried out their duties in recent times. Since this force was integrated with the regular Army they have proved their worth and have taken a load from the shoulders of the regular forces. The FCA have played a major part in the protection of installations and have also taken part in Border duties and I am glad they have had the benefit of the various pay increases granted to the Army. This compensated to some degree for the efforts they made; by their response to the national call for security they showed they were loyal and good Irishmen.
There are views expressed that the FCA should be reorganised and I have given some thought to this. Some people think that rather than having large numbers and a high wastage rate in FCA personnel the numbers should be reduced and training intensified to produce a fast, efficient mobile unit that could come to the aid of the Army or the Garda in any crisis and this is something that is worth considering. On the other hand, the FCA offered an opportunity to young people who had an urge to handle guns to be trained in the use of guns while wearing the uniform of the FCA. Perhaps in this way the FCA have helped to keep young people out of harm and this is one aspect of the FCA that should be considered. I would be slow to make any change in the present composition of the FCA because of the role they are playing and the useful work they are doing.
I should like to pay tribute to the members of the civil defence organisation. This is a citizen organisation that has grown quite considerably. It has played a useful part in the handling of refugees during the Northern crisis. As many as 10,000 refugees were taken care of efficiently by members of the civil defence who have linked up efficiently with the local county councils and county managers, providing a service that is useful not only in war but in peace conditions.
I should like to compliment the civil defence on the auxiliary fire service. It is strange that while the auxiliary fire service is part of the civil defence organisation it is under local government and there does not seem to be any liaison between the civil defence fire service and the regular fire brigades. In a recent incident in my area forests went on fire and the local fire brigade was called in. Although the civil defence fire appliance was in the area it was not called for and assistance was sought from areas 30 miles away. It is only a question of linking up the auxiliary fire service with the regular fire service and better results would be obtained.
Civil Defence could be termed a youth organisation because it holds a tremendous attraction for young people. Some small awards are given to instructors from time to time and this keeps the organisation in operation but the awards given are small. The instructors are imbued with a sense of loyalty, dedication and patriotism and they deserve our thanks. Within the Department of Defence there is an extremely efficient unit that has been responsible for the overall efficiency of civil defence.
A committee was set up to examine a proposal for the hospitalisation of certain categories of Old IRA veterans in St. Bricin's Hospital. There are many thousands of Old IRA medal holders and it was realised that if St. Bricin's Hospital was available to receive them it would be full in a short time with no turnover of patients. Nevertheless, the hospital could play a role in the treatment of these veterans; possibly they could be given minor examinations in the hospital and assisted in placing them in hospitals in their own local authority areas.
Some people may say that I had the opportunity of doing this when I was Minister. I had the position fully examined and, in the final analysis, it was seen that this was probably the course that would be most viable, that is, the one of taking in the veteran, having him examined by a doctor or specialist, having his condition diagnosed, and then assisting in having him transferred to his local hospital. I am concerned about this. I know many veterans. They are fully entitled to the best possible treatment we can provide for them.
Special allowances to old age pensioners have been substantially increased from time to time. The appropriate annual sum, as we call it, was increased from £178 in 1968 to £250 in 1972. Having regard to raising costs, people in this category might be given special consideration with a view to giving them whatever comforts are possible in their old age.
Numerous requests have been made from time to time for free travel for wives of veterans unaccompanied by their husbands. At the moment the pass is valid for the husband and wife, or the widow as the case may be. This is a budgetary matter, but it is one which I would like to see put into effect because, as has been said from this side of the House, a wife needs free travel, perhaps to visit her husband who is in hospital, or to travel alone if he is not able to go with her. I should like to see this particular concession, which was introduced by the Fianna Fáil Government and extended on many occasions, in different ways, extended to provide this additional concession for wives of veterans.
I am somewhat at a disadvantage in this debate since most of the matters referred to in the Minister's speech described many of the developments that took place during my last year in office. For that reason it is hardly necessary for me to go over them again. I wish the Minister success in his Department and I am pleased he is accepting many of the initiatives which were taken by my Government when in office.
As a founder member of the National Army, I should like to say a few words on this Estimate. I should like to join with the present Minister and the former Minister in paying a tribute to our Army. A first-class service is given to the country by the Army. A well-trained and disciplined Army is the greatest asset a country could have. By that I do not mean an Army that is the plaything of the political parties. That is a most dangerous thing in any country. Our Army must be the people's Army. It must be prepared to serve whatever Government are in office. It must be prepared to serve the people of the country. While I know that members of the Army have political views, they must subordinate them to whatever Government and Minister for Defence are in power. Too often recently we have seen members of our Army charged with offences against the State. There is nothing more disastrous for a State than such an occurrence. I hope we never see it again.
Our Army has not the same financial backing as the armies of more affluent countries. Still we are providing funds which should ensure that the Army is catered for to the greatest possible extent. By that I mean that it is well trained, has good quarters and living conditions, and that sportsfields are provided. It should be in the forefront at any festivals, festivities or in other public places where the Army is under the eye of the people. The Army should be our first line of defence and it should be in as good a condition and as well prepared as our financial means allow.
I was amused at a question asked today as to why free travel was not allowed to wives of Old IRA men. Whatever Government made the order which gave Old IRA men the privilege of free travel and did not include their wives showed scant respect for these men. This is the first matter the new Minister should look into. He should take from whatever money is provided a sufficient amount to allow these old ladies, some of whose husbands are not fit to travel, the privilege of free travel. We hear a lot about the respect due to Old IRA men and their wives but, whoever devised the scheme which precluded Old IRA men's wives from travelling on their own, did not show much respect for those men and for the services they rendered to the country.
I would appeal to the Minister to make this his first priority. It will not cost much. They are vanishing fast. Many of them are hospitalised and their wives cannot afford to travel to see them. I appeal to the Minister to make provision for free travel for these ladies. I have the honour to know a number of Old IRA men who gave good service to the country and are getting paltry pensions of £50, £60 and £100 per annum. I appeal to the Minister to grant a 10 per cent increase to all Old IRA pensions under £400. Much lip service is paid to them and now is the time for the Minister to compensate them for their service to this country.
I cannot accept the excuse from any Minister that he cannot afford to build a new barracks because the property belonging to the Department of Defence which I see being sold here in the city must be worth millions of pounds. The space alone must be worth millions and surely the Minister and his advisers could long ago have started to build a new modern barracks. Why wait until this late hour to start disposing of property which is useless to the military, which is old and damp and unsuitable for soldiers? It is completely out of place in modern conditions and I would ask the Minister to look into this aspect and to get rid of many of these old barracks which are only eyesores throughout the city of Dublin and build a modern barracks. From what I can see, these properties would command a very high price. As they stand, they are only eyesores. The Army has not the money to keep them up to date and they are entirely unsuitable for military purposes.
While Fianna Fáil were in office, they allowed the Army to run down to such an extent that a year or two ago they had to start recruiting—panic recruiting, as I would call it—to bring the Army up to strength. It is the responsibility of every Government and every Minister to see that our Army is kept at proper strength and that the conditions for soldiers are brought up to date. I appeal to the new Minister in this regard. He is a man who has captured the imagination of the country in his short term of office. He has been responsible for many things and there is no doubt that he is a dashing soldier who has given an example not alone to the Government but to the Army. It is a grand thing to see the Minister moving around his troops and I must congratulate him on what he has done so far. I can see that he will make a very excellent Minister.
With regard to the old Army prisons in Dublin and elsewhere, while I do not believe in featherbedding any prisoner. I would say that the prisons here, Arbour Hill and the Glasshouse in the Curragh, are worse than anything in France during the Revolution. It is about time that human beings were looked after when in prison and I appeal to the Minister to see to it that some visiting committee or similar body be appointed to ensure that prisoners are given a fair chance. This used to be the case before but it has lapsed for some considerable time now. There should be some sort of visiting committee to look into the conditions in which prisoners are confined in some of the prisons we have. It should be the duty of the Department of Defence to ensure that the conditions within these prisons are brought up at least to certain standards and that some heat and comfort are provided in them, instead of keeping them as the damp dungeons they are.
I do not believe that any Minister should keep the Army in one place. It should be distributed right through the country, the strategic parts of the country. There is no good in having one big barracks in Dublin and no barracks around the country. We have the ground for the provision of good barracks in many parts of Cork and many other parts of the West and the Midlands and this should be utilised for the building of suitable barracks for our Army.
The Civil Defence section is certainly a branch of the service which has been of great use so far and the Civil Defence people deserve the praise of everybody. They are a great branch of the Army, a great branch of national service, and the people who have given their time to it voluntarily deserve the greatest credit and praise. I am glad to stand up here as one who knows their work and pay that tribute to them. I hope that recruitment will be continued and that better conditions than they have will be provided for them. Their uniforms are very drab and not entirely suitable. They should be better clothed and better equipment should be provided for them. They have acted many times in times of sudden disaster, such as floods and fires, and have rendered very valuable service.
Another important matter is the keeping of Army equipment up to modern standards. Much has been done in that respect and the Army now is provided with modern equipment, which is only right, and trained in the use of that equipment. I am sure we will never have to send an expeditionary force anywhere out of the country. The Army here is needed only in our own country but I agree with the peace-keeping excercise of sending them to places where they are needed in times of crisis such as Cyprus and the Middle East. They have distinguished themselves abroad and it is a good thing for an Army to see the conditions obtaining in other parts of the world.
I hope the Minister will continue to show the example he has shown in his short period in office and that he will deal with the few matters I have raised as urgent matters. I hope he will see to it that the Army of our country is not made a political plaything. It is the national Army of our country, prepared to serve any Government in control of the country and having no connection, good bad or indifferent, with any other organisations or groups in the country. I pay tribute to them for their service and express the hope that the Army of today will be treated better than the veterans of past years. I know many men who spent 40 years in the Army whose pensions today would not be £2 10s a week. I am subject to correction in that regard but I was recently speaking to a man who had 40 years service with the Army, a man who was an outstanding athlete in his time— he won an Army cross-country championship—whose pension is £2 or £3 a week. That is not good enough in case of a man who has spent the best years of his life in the Army.
In Britain, France and other countries provision is made for Army veterans. Hospitals are provided for medical and surgical treatment. I would appeal to the Minister to consider the provision of such a service for our Army veterans. Persons who have given national service should not be allowed to die in county homes or other such institutions.
I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I hope he will continue as he started and that as a result of his administration there will be improvements in the Army.
May I begin by wishing the Minister well in his Department? I recognise the point made by the last speaker that the Army should not be the subject of a tug-of-war in this House.
I would ask the Minister to comment on a number of points when he is concluding. The first point I should like to raise is the question of pensions for widows of Army personnel. The Minister has told us that there are 4,200 widows of military service pensioners in receipt of an allowance equal to one-half of their deceased husbands' military service pensions increased to current rates with a minimum of £70.56 per annum.
Recently there was a case in my constituency, about which I wrote to the Minister, of a widow of a soldier who had given 37 years service. The soldier had contracted TB while in the Army. He left the Army and died four years later. At the time of his death he had been in receipt of a pension of £40 a month. After his death his widow got nothing. Her sole income is her widow's pension of £5.60. The reply I got from the Minister was to the effect that this person was not entitled to a pension. I would ask the Minister when replying to the debate to let me know the position.
In the case of Army personnel living in married quarters, a condition of the payment of the gratuity is that they must vacate the married quarters. In the case of a soldier who does not qualify for a corporation house this involves serious hardship. He may have to wait for years for the gratuity to which he is entitled. It is a form of blackmail to withhold gratuity pending the vacating of the married quarters. A soldier may have to stay in the married quarters for ever if he is unable to secure alternative accommodation. There should be a more flexible approach towards such cases. Having regard to the effect of inflation on the value of money, by the time the gratuity is paid it will not be of much use.
The Minister referred to bomb disposal personnel and the difficult and trying circumstances in which they carry out their work. If I were engaged on such dangerous work I should like to think that my widow and children would be looked after generously in the event of my death. I would expect that the equivalent of full pay would be given to the widows of such personnel because of the dangerous nature of the work they carry out. I realise that there are dangers inherent in a soldier's life. A soldier may get killed in war. However, bomb disposal personnel are engaged in a particularly dangerous type of work. The Minister should have regard to their case.
The Minister's speech implied a tribute to the former Minister and the progress that has taken place in the equipment of the Army in the past few years. The Minister's strongest criticism was with regard to the toilet accommodation on the ground floor of the military detention barracks. He told us that he had given instructions that this should be improved.
It is gratifying that troop personnel carriers are being built here. One of the persons concerned has been engaged in the production of another type of troop carrier which has proved very successful. The sooner we can go into production of these carriers, the better. Considerable saving can be secured in this way. I would be very interested to hear the results of the trials of the vehicles.
The Ceann Comhairle has ruled that the case of the Claudia is sub judice. There is one question in regard to it which the Minister may be able to answer without infringing that ruling. When the Minister decided to release the Claudia did he have the sanction of the Minister for Justice? I understand that it would have been the responsibility of the Minister for Justice to say whether or not the Claudia should have been detained. These questions will be raised later on. Certainly, the Minister for Justice should have been involved. I hope he was.
I was pleased to note the interest expressed by the Minister in the Army School of Equitation. The School of Equitation is something of which we have been proud. The success of our riders abroad is welcomed by the Army as well as by the general public. I should like the glory of past years to be repeated. Our Army Equitation School was very successful when Colonel Aherne was in charge.
Would the Minister be interested in buying a good horse?
Would the Deputy bid against me?
I am glad that the Minister is encouraging displays by the Army. There have been very interesting helicopter displays. This is the kind of thing which gives the public something to look at. A good deal of money goes into expensive equipment and this gives the public an opportunity of seeing the Army in action. The Minister would agree that it is also a good aid to recruitment. With the excellent conditions at present being offered, I am sure we shall have no real problem in that regard.
I was also glad to note that the Minister will continue to encourage Civil Defence and the Red Cross and will encourage people to become involved. Anything that will get a community working together is to be encouraged and very useful work in this way can be done through the Army. It is an excellent treat particularly because it shows the tremendous progress which has been made over the past few years in equipment and living standards and in what is planned for the future in living accommodation for soldiers. One does not any longer have to live a hard life in order to be a soldier; it can be a comfortable life also.
I come from a constituency which owes a lot to the Army. While I have not had much experience as a Deputy of any other Minister, I have found the present Minister co-operative and I think he is trying to do a good job. I join with other speakers in wishing him well and I hope he will succeed in making our Army even better. I agree that the Army is wonderful at present. I am prepared to concede to people in the Opposition that a good deal has been done in recent years in regard to the Army. But much more can be done and I expect the present Minister will succeed in achieving much more.
The specific points I wish to deal with concern what I have seen and know of the Army in my constituency which is the headquarters of the Curragh Training Camp. A previous speaker mentioned the small problem of people retiring from the Army and having their pensions held up until they get accommodation outside military quarters. That may be a small problem in Dublin but it is a very serious one in Kildare, where such people are referred to as overholders. It has been a very serious problem for many years in Kildare. I was a member of a deputation of these people to the previous Minister. Apparently, the county council cannot inspect the premises at the Curragh where they live to see if they can be rehoused. They assume that the Minister would take a poor view if the Kildare medical officer condemned some of the living quarters there—I suppose that is the only way that he could give normal county council houses to these people, some of whom have been there for a very long time. They cannot get civilian work from the Board of Works in the camp while they told these married quarters; they cannot get pensions.
I do not blame the present Minister because this problem has been with us for many years but I think it is a problem that has been created by the Department of Defence in Kildare through these people being brought there into married quarters. When they retire it is hardly fair to expect Kildare local authorities to house them and they are not able to provide their own houses. It is time that all concerned combined to solve this problem. Some approaches have been made and I think Kildare County Council have agreed to build houses for these people if they could get land on the Curragh but that has not so far come to pass.
The Minister should examine this situation. Children of these people are now probably grown up having been born on the Curragh and they want to stay in the area. Part of the vast plains of the Curragh should be provided for houses for these people. We think that the people themselves by means of loans to which possibly the Minister could contribute—I am sure the county council would be willing to co-operate—might be able to build their own houses. The problem of overholders should be tackled by the Minister and the councils concerned. It is unfair to people who may have served up to 30, 40 or 45 years in the Army that they cannot get their pensions, cannot get employment from the Board of Works while their rents and electric light bills are increased. They cannot get alternative accommodation. This is a major problem in Kildare and it is a factor which would weigh against people making a career of the Army. I think this is the most serious of the problems to which I wish to draw attention as regards Army headquarters in Kildare.
I also wish to mention the matter of wives of old IRA men being given free travel facilities when they travel on their own. Apparently they get this concession if they travel with their husbands. In some cases I know that the Old IRA man is himself unable to travel and the cost of giving the free travel concession to the wives would be negligible.
I understand that widows of Army personnel are entitled to half the husbands' pensions and in the case of a soldier who dies in Army service to one year's pay. They must apply for this and I know of a few cases of people who got the year's pay when the husband died as a serving soldier. I hold they should then be entitled to half the pension that would have applied to the husband had he lived to retire. As things are, if the widow while drawing the year's pay does not apply within 12 months. I understand she is not eligible. This should not be a big problem and I think the Minister should consider it. If there are some —and I know there are—who did not apply for the half pension within the specified period and have been debarred from getting it as a result, the Minister should remedy that situation.
Another small matter which would not cost a great deal to settle is the question of medical services. A large number of people live in towns around the Curragh, soldiers with families, some in local authority houses. If wives and children of these soldiers go to the Curragh, ten or 14 miles away perhaps, they can get free medical service but it is a pity these free services are not available to the people in their own towns, particularly in Naas where there is a doctor providing service for the Army Apprentice School. I believe there are many families in Naas, perhaps ten, 12 or 14 miles from the Curragh, who are not able to avail of the services that should be avaliable to them as the wives and children of serving soldiers.
With regard to the detention camp, I do not think these people should be held in military custody. Most of them consider themselves political offenders but that is no reason why they should be held in military custody. When it was originally decided to hold these people in the Curragh I believe that detention there was intended to be of a temporary nature. The Minister should consider that aspect and remove these people from the Curragh. Military police and soldiers naturally behave towards these people in the same way as they would behave towards members of the Army found guilty of some breach of Army regulations. The prisoners in the Curragh may not accept this and a situation could arise which might result in antagonising ordinary people. That would be a pity. I am against military custody for these people.
The Minister's Department are responsible for the Board of Works employees in the Curragh Camp. When these retire there are very long delays before they receive whatever pension or gratuity is accruing to them. Some of them have difficulty in getting the ordinary social services. Would the Minister look into this?
The Minister is doing a good job. I should like him to refer to the points I have made when he comes to reply. It should not cost a great deal to do what I have asked. The result would be an improvement in the lives of soldiers generally and that could have the effect of attracting a better type of recruit. The problem is the overholders. Negotiations should be entered into with the appropriate authorities to provide houses for these people.
May I commence with something in the nature of a point of order? I want to make it clear, first of all, that I do not intend to discuss the matter, but there was a ruling here this afternoon and I question the validity of that ruling. In our Standing Orders there are specific powers conferred on the Ceann Comhairle. They will be found, in particular, on page 33, paragraphs 46 and 47. They are quite specific and there is nothing in them which empowers the Ceann Comhairle to rule that a particular subject may not be discussed. I respectfully submit that the proper procedure in a case like this is one in which the House would be consulted. I am sure the House will agree with that. I will not attempt to discuss a matter that might prejudice a case pending in the courts. This is common case between us. However, I think the approach taken is fundamentally wrong and a breach of the privilege of this House and a usurpation by the officers of the House of the privilege of the House. I submit that the particular ruling is ultra vires the Chair.
I would like to point out in general terms the consequences of such a ruling. I shall say nothing about the Claudia incident. Before last Christmas there were serious bombing incidents in this city. There was a serious incident in a Dublin hospital. Is the logic of this to be pressed to the point that, simply because somebody is arrested or charged in connection with something, the whole matter is beyond the power of discussion here in this House? Suppose there is a riot and serious disorder and somebody is arrested, will that of itself be sufficient automatically to debar discussion in this House of a matter of urgent public importance? I make this point so that it will not go by default. There will be another time and perhaps another place; this will have to be examined very thoroughly, perhaps in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges first, but it will certainly have to come ultimately to the floor of the House.
I am anxious to highlight what is happening in this Parliament and I am making a prima facie submission now merely on the basis of the Standing Orders that the purported ruling is ultra vires the Chair. I will leave it at that for the moment. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and Chief Whip is a very eminent constitutional lawyer and I would earnestly commend to him that he should look into this. I am interested in the proper conduct and the privileges of this House. I do not want to take any advantage whatsoever of the Minister. The Minister has stated that the matter will be discussed. As a reasonable person, and because of the circumstances, I accept that nothing will be lost by postponing discussion, provided the discussion does come.
Of course it will. The matter is sub judice.
I want the matter on record. I want, so to speak, to give notice. I also want to commend it to the eminent constitutional lawyer who is Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach in whose integrity in such matters I have the greatest confidence.
The matter is not before the House. The Deputy has been allowed to make a long statement. The matter is one which should not be discussed on the Estimate for the Department of Defence at this stage at all. The Deputy is an old parliamentarian and he knows the rules quite well. The Chair would equally refer the Deputy to Standing Order No. 48 in regard to this matter. I am sure the Deputy will have an opportunity of dealing with this matter with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I asked the interpretation of the word ‘order". Order is not what can be discussed. However, this is a matter for debate elsewhere. May I thank you for your courtesy in allowing me to make this point of order at such length. I have made it and I wish it to remain. I thank you for your reference to Standing Order No. 48 and I furthermore say that that was a misinterpretation.
Is the Deputy speaking on the Estimate?
Yes. Having made that point we come to the Defence Estimate. When addressing a new Minister it is customary to congratulate him and to wish him well. I wish to join in the customary wishing him well. That is not intended to be an empty compliment because we should all wish to see success and progress in the Minister's Department as in other Departments and in wishing him well we are wishing well to the whole area of State activity which he for the moment controls. If it is a successful period we rejoice in that.
I am afraid over the years the inevitable has happened and I hope it will not happen again. When the Defence Forces are needed, when they are required in some form or other, people are prepared to say and do the right thing, but unfortunately when it appears they are not needed they are very often the Cindrella of the State. In the last few years there has been a commendable interest in our Defence Forces and in the building up of them. I am glad to see that the new Minister is taking an active interest in his Department and continuing what his predecessor was doing. He is looking at the problems and the development of the Defence Forces.
First of all, there is the question of keeping numbers up. Unfortunately, in an interim period the numbers were allowed go down. I shall take this opportunity of making a comment which I very frequently made when I was on the other side of the House in respect of the Garda, prison services, Defence Forces and so on. It is a mistake to regard the Defence Forces, the Garda, the prison officers—even our teachers can to some extent be grouped into this category—as different from other State servants. I should like to make it quite clear that my remarks are not meant to be in any way a reflection on the Civil Service. The Civil Service must also be built up. Over the years a habit of thinking grew up by which there were two types of State servant. You had the Civil Service in one position and you had other State servants like soldiers, gardaí, prison officers and even teachers looked on as being in a different position. In modern times this is the wrong way to approach this matter.
One of the greatest safeguards for all branches of our services is unified thinking at Government level and in this House with regard to the service as a whole and a proper appreciation of the essential nature of the service that is being provided, even though at some times one Department may appear to be more essential or more important than another. In times of emergency and crisis the Department of Defence seemed more important than the Department of Finance. We were then dealing with realities. In normal times, however, the control of our economic activity and the holding of a proper balance may completely depend on the Department of Finance.
Uniform thinking in regard to our State services as a whole is necessary. This would obviate something that can so easily happen—having a false economy and a neglect of certain services when they do not appear to be immediately necessary. Before the last emergency of 1939 to 1945 and since then there have been periods when the Defence Forces were neglected and run down. As a result when they were again needed there was difficulty in bringing their strength up. We should try to avoid that type of stop-go attitude.
The same thing happened in regard to the Garda. In an era of peace and social stability there were restrictions on recruiting in the Army and Garda. The Garda were also neglected and, when they were required, there had to be extra recruits. The same can also happen with regard to prison officers. This is not a criticism of the present Government but of all of us here. It is important to have steady policies and to have steady objectives. We should realise that these forces may be wanted and that it is too late sometimes to extemporise if you wait until the emergency is on you.
Although I might not altogether agree with the Minister's methods I am glad to see that he, like his predecessor, is obviously showing an interest in his Department. I do not believe that any useful purpose is served by our attempting to be technicians and talking about technical matters in regard to defence when we have not the necessary information to be really constructive. There was a time when I could talk with a little more confidence than I can talk now.
In general terms I would ask the Minister to think about this. Specific local defence problems should be examined. There may be specific experiments which should or could be carried out. They would be of interest to the Forces and could be profitable. Deputy Cronin spoke about the new vehicles. I am glad to see that this question is under examination.
Thirty years ago when an emergency arose there were problems concerning supplies which were unavailable. For instance, when the armoured vehicle was news in 1940 we had very few ways of dealing with the problems concerning its supply. A section was set up to cope with the problem. We had not the equipment and had to think of ways of dealing with problems at that time. I hope that we will not have such needs in the future.
In the Intelligence Department of the Army before the last war the officials had ways of foreseeing requirements but no practical action was taken, beyond the purchase of conventional equipment, until new equipment could not be got. An ad hoc committee was set up to consider the solutions to our problems. The task of the Army would be easier if such problems were foreseen in time. I would like to see developments in our defence organisation in regard to the staff work dealing with operations and the moving of troops. Questions of supply and likely requirements, and even the questions of what experimental work could be carried out, should be examined with a view to anticipating later demands. Such an approach could make life interesting for the professional soldiers and officers and let them feel that there was a purpose in their lives. This would need effort and a little money.
I will not go any further into technical details of defence except to point out that the maintenance of the numbers and morale of the troops, both officers and other ranks, is the first requirement of success. The maintenance of numbers and morale translated into practice means keeping up the numbers and making an Army career attractive. Conditions of service and renumeration should be attractive.
The Estimate, as outlined by the Minister, does not call for more detailed comment. I am glad to see the developments in connection with the armoured vehicles. There might be a branch of the staff or some section which would look at the technical questions in regard to such equipment.
The question of accommodation can be considered in connection with the conditions of service of soldiers. Many of our old barracks are out-of-date. One cannot rush at this problem. One must look at the barracks to see what should be done. I would be glad if the Minister could give us some information later on this subject and enable us to have a discussion on it.
I will, once the question has been examined. The Deputy will realise that I am bound——
I do, of course.
In regard to the incident concerning the Claudia I will say nothing beyond the point I raised earlier. A Cheann Comhairle, I raised a point of order at some length and I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for allowing me to make it. It is important. I recorded a point of order which I think we must follow in another place at another time.
It remains just to mention pensions which are bound up with the treatment of the Defence Forces. The Defence Forces, the Garda, the prison officers and teachers should all be treated as an integrated part of the State service. We should adopt the same kind of general policy towards them all. If the Government adopted that point of view it would be the soundest approach to our problems of defence.
The Estimate on the Department of Defence does not generally hit the headlines but it is one of the most important Estimates involving one of the most important Departments of State. It is only when the Army is needed with all its components like the Air Corps, the helicopter service and the Naval Service that we begin to notice it. Unfortunately, a few years ago when the Northern situation came before us it was painfully obvious to us that we were caught on the wrong foot without adequate equipment or transport. We were not in a position to deal with the position as we would like. That situation has been corrected somewhat. If we are to maintain the security which the nation requires and to pre- serve the institutions which we cherish and the democracy which we hope to have for future generations, it is most important that all Army personnel should be treated with much more respect than heretofore. Possibly our national outlook does not tend to give to the Army the credit it deserves. This may be a hangover from the days when we were ruled by an outside power and did not have respect for the soldiers. That attitude may have followed into the present generation resulting in a situation where men who served this country have not got the respect of the Irish people to which they were entitled.
It can be said the Irish people have been too complacent about the contribution the Army has made to the security of the State. People who could influence public opinion have not exercised that influence to encourage young people to join our Defence Forces. Frequently, it is people of limited means who have shown their patriotism by their voluntary service or by their contributions to our regular Army. If we are to preserve and enjoy the democracy we cherish we must play our part.
It is unfortunate that the Army must spend so much time on bomb disposal work and that it is necessary to have Army personnel on duty in many areas throughout the country. Although we have adequate strength in our Army which allows us to participate in United Nations duties in the Middle East and elsewhere, it is true that our Defence Forces are hard worked. We have tended to overlook the contributions made by voluntary forces, by the FCA in particular. That force are at a standard of training that will permit them to be on a par with the regular Army; they do weekend training, do Border duty and contribute in a similar way to the regular Army.
During the years the FCA have been the Cinderella of the Army in that they have contributed the most but have received the least. The volunteer and his family make a considerable sacrifice but he has not been treated as well as he should have been. At the moment a member of the FCA is given only one uniform. It could happen that he would be required to travel 100 miles to do military exercises and if it is bad weather he is not able to change his uniform. There is a danger to the health of volunteers in this kind of situation and I would ask the Minister to consider allowing more than one uniform to each member of the FCA. The previous Minister made an effort to give some compensation to members of the FCA by doubling the gratuity but it still remains a very inadequate amount. The Minister should recognise that the FCA will be a valuable force in the years ahead and that they should be treated in a proper way. The gratuity should be doubled because these volunteers deserve it. The morale of the force is high but the members cannot continue giving voluntary service forever. The few give this service and we must try to help those who join the force.
With regard to quarters for our regular force, I have served in many barracks during the years and I know that we have not done as much as we should about accommodation for NCOs and men. The soldier gives the best years of his life to his country; he retires at a time when it is difficult for him to purchase a house and this is especially the case now when one considers the price of houses. A programme should be undertaken to ensure that when men retire from the Army they will not be dependent on local authorities for houses. The Department of Defence should ensure that some agency would erect an adequate number of houses for the people who retire each year. The previous speaker referred to overholders in the Curragh; they are in other areas also. It is impossible for Army personnel to compete with civilians when they apply to the local authority for housing, although in the last few years local authorities have been giving more consideration to this matter. The obligation is on the Department of Defence to ensure that Army people are properly housed when they retire. The housing development rate in Army barracks is deplorable. I have seen only half a dozen houses at Sarsfield Barracks in Limerick.
The old ones dating from the time of the British regime are still there. This all reflects an indecisive and haphazard outlook on our Army. It has contributed to the necessity to have concentrated recruitment campaigns. We are lucky that we have never been short of volunteers. They are patriots as well as volunteers.
We have always maintained a very high standard in all ranks in our Army. In the recruitment of cadets, it has been recognised the world over that the quality of our men is outstanding. That has been recognised outside this State, even in the United States of America. Cadets should be given the opportunity to take out degrees which are suited to them. The Army needs men who are qualified in different spheres such as arts or commerce.
Not as a concession but as a right, members of the FCA should be able to enter the cadets. A young man who has his Leaving Certificate and who has probably attained commissioned rank within the FCA should have this right. I should like to see more flexibility in this aspect of recruitment. Greater recognition should be given to those who give voluntary service. Possibly that should also apply to those who give service in An Slua Muirí and in Civil Defence. In this way young men will see that their services are appreciated.
At the moment equipment and stores seem to be adequate. It is refreshing to know that the proper type of armoured vehicles are being made and tested here. It is good to know that we have the expertise to provide the type of vehicle which is suitable. That trend should continue. Even after a period of trial and error we should provide any equipment we can provide. We now have many technicians who can apply themselves to this task.
It is rather peculiar to have to say that much of the time of our soldiers and the FCA is wasted in guarding our vital installations. I am not saying it is wasted in the sense that it is not necessary, but why should the position arise that within our own State we have people who think they are achieving something by threatening our vital installations. I doubt that that type of thinking will ever bring about the unity of the country. These people should think again and try to contribute to the services we have built up rather than attempting to destroy our installations. Until this attitude of destroying ourselves changes, we cannot hope for the eventual unification of our country, which we all desire.
We must all admit that national security is our greatest need but it is peculiar that so many of our young men are tied down trying to prevent others from destroying what we have built up over the past half century. I hope that trend of thought will change and that those people who do not see the light at the moment will change their ways.
Everyone fully appreciates the contribution made by our Army and the component services: our Air Corps, our helicopter service, our Navy, and our Defence Forces. If we are to maintain our present strength we must continue to show our appreciation in a practical way. That is the only way in which we can ensure that the security of the State will be preserved for those who come after us.
I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate you, Sir, publicly on your appointment as Ceann Comhairle, and I trust that you will maintain the same standard of fairness you have always maintained in your political life outside the House. I should also like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment and to wish him the best personally—and only personally.
I should like to start off on a note which has rather surprised me. At Easter Sunday commemorations in my own constituency I met members of ONE who had the unfortunate experience of emigrating and living in Britain. They claimed—and rightly so far as I can substantiate their statements—that they are completely ignored as an organisation in England by the Irish Embassy. To me this is a very serious allegation because they are ex-members of the permanent and reserve Defence Forces.
I would ask the Minister to look into this matter personally and ensure that to any function to which the officials of the Irish Embassy are asked they will at least have the courtesy of sending somebody to recognise that organisation, indeed, that very famous organisation. I am not speaking politically now. I am a member of ONE and, as the Minister is aware, ONE is not political. It is an all-party gathering and it is not political. I speak as a member of ONE and I ask the Minister to ensure that this is not the case, and if it is that he will have it corrected.
On this Estimate I have always spoken on the question of the Old IRA. I asked the Minister today if he would ensure that the wives of veterans will be allowed to travel independently of their husbands. I fail to see why this cannot be done and what the stumbling block is. If the logic of the matter is to be followed, surely we must realise that, now that the widows of medal holders are granted free travel, wives can be granted free travel also.
I pointed out to the Minister at Question Time today that there are some cases of extreme hardship. Most of these men are now at least 70 years of age. Some of them are in their eighties. Many of them have not been well over the past number of years. Some of them have been attending hospitals over a long period, and some of them have been invalided in hospital over a long period, or in county rest homes of one type or another. It is very important that the wife should benefit from what the husband cannot physically benefit from. I have had numerous representations made to me over the past three years and I raised it with the previous Minister on a number of occasions in this House, and I know that the present Minister will find among his own Cabinet colleagues support for it. Deputy Clinton, when spokesman on Defence, mentioned it on numerous occasions and so, as I recall, did the present Minister for Finance.
I should be very grateful if the Minister would look into this request because I fail to see why it cannot be done. Now that the Minister has started off on a new set of improvements in the conditions of Old IRA men and their widows particularly—he has given the widows half the service pension, a minimum of £52 a year—I would ask him to have included in the forthcoming Budget some increase in these pensions in view of the cost of living increase in the last year. With the number of these people, both widows and Old IRA men, diminishing every year, it is very important that he should re-allocate the money saved to those who can gain benefit from it.
With regard to the Army, I asked questions today in connection with the fact that single men in the Army with long service, up to 31 years, are discriminated against in that they do not get the long service gratuity. I fail to see the logic of this. If a man gets married, he gets the service pay; if he does not marry, he does not get it, so it would seem that Ministers over the years have held something against the single man in the Army and these may be the men who have given more of their lives to the service, men who have been married to the Army. I cannot see why this cannot be done but I hope from the Minister's reply today, that he was looking into it and that it was being reviewed, he will ensure that this will be done in the very near future.
In the past year the integration of the Army with the public has been carried out very successfully in that the No. 1 Army Band has been brought into public view in the form of recitals and its presence at various functions. This I hope the Minister will continue in future years here for as long as he may be Minister. There should be more integration of the Army with the people and this can be done in connection with the recruiting campaign that is at present being carried on, although I cannot see more recruits being drawn in than are being drawn in at the moment, unless the standards within the Army are improved. The first requirement is competition with outside jobs to ensure that members of the Army receive reasonable pay. Pay has been increased twice in the past three years but I still do not believe it is enough. The Estimate sets out that the pay will be £20.75 for a man in the Army today.
For an 18-years-old recruit.
Surely the Minister is aware that 19 year olds can get £3 a day doing ordinary labouring jobs?
I am not disputing that but the figure I quote is the Minimum.
If we are to get a greater response to recruitment campaigns and a higher standard as we have been getting over the past few years, recruitment must be carried out on the basis of finance in competition with the attraction of other employments.
I would like to see more publicity for the work the Army are doing. If the public are made aware of what the Army are doing, there might be more support for the Army when it comes to paying the necessary taxes. I remember when the Army used to come to town on recruitment drives. They would bring probably one armoured car and a number of guns for display in a particular centre. To these displays all the children in the town were brought. This brought the Army to the knowledge of the people and the people fully appreciated the Army and felt somewhat in awe of these machines at the time. In relation to recruitment in various areas—each barracks is a recruitment centre, I know, and each Garda station can be so regarded—I do not approve of the present method of using bands. An office in each town should be hired, with a display window, and a much better image thereby given to the recruitment campaign to make it attractive enough to draw people in, whether they are interested in joining or not, and so create a better atmosphere all around and produce a better knowledge of the Army.
In regard to extra payments for Border duty, the previous Minister brought in a rate of 10s a day which as far as I am aware is the same amount as military police get in the Curragh for the extra duties performed there. While this is a move in the right direction, I still feel it is not enough, when we compare it with the amount which members of the Garda can get—five times that sum—in one night. The Minister may get himself involved in regard to payment for overtime and hours worked over normal duty hours. This is a problem which the Minister has in the matter of extra money for duty in Border areas but perhaps a gratuity or something on these lines could be given. The Minister has sufficient qualified staff to come up with some system of payment of moneys for such duties. A sum of £3.10 a week is not an awful lot to give them for the amount of work they are putting in, but it is at least a step in the right direction.
I was surprised and shocked, looking through the Minister's speech, that he did not mention the FCA in any specific term or at any great length. I see that he mentioned it twice on the first page in relation to duties carried out on the Border but I am speaking about the FCA as a force and in regard to what is to be done about it. There are 30,000 members in the FCA at present but when it came to the call up for men who could do this duty, there were less than 10 per cent of these who could be considered or who were fully trained and reliable. This is because not enough time or money is being spent on the volunteers who have given so many of their weekends for training and at summer camps. Not enough money is spent on their training and not enough pride is taken in the uniform. It is a practical fact in regard to the FCA that the member of the FCA who goes to a summer camp finds himself in the position that he has to be on parade in the morning with his uniform pressed and his boots and buttons shining. On the same day he has to take part in manoeuvres, clean his weapon and carry out various other manual tasks which would involve dirtying himself. Yet, the next day, he has to appear in the same uniform, spick and span, buttons shined and boots polished. It is time that a second uniform was provided, if not a fatigue uniform, for men on camp duties of various kinds. It is important that the FCA be given every chance to develop into a strong force.
Deputy Cronin, the former Minister for Defence, did not agree with me when I said that it would be better to cut down the numbers in the FCA and to equip the force fully and to ensure that each member would have proper and full training. I have known members of the FCA in the past ten years who have not fired any of the weapons at present in use in the FCA and in the Army. I speak from personal knowledge. I am not aware that this has been the case in the past three or four years but certainly it was the case before that.
While the gratuities were doubled last year they are not adequate having regard to the amount of time given by the members of the FCA. Most of the members who attend the summer camps give up a fortnight's holiday which they have earned after a year's work. They do so in order to receive military training. They enjoy the camps and take a full and active part in the duties but they should receive a better reward than £12 in respect of that period. It is not that they look for reward but there should be a better financial reward than has been given up to the present. Their efforts should not only be appreciated but should be seen to be appreciated.
I would ask the Minister to consider the provision of a service uniform for the FCA. The Minister mentioned that new uniforms are to be issued to the FCA. I would ask him to ensure that the uniforms fit the members of the force. It should not be the case that the Quartermaster would look at the member and estimate that he is between five feet and six feet and issue him with a uniform suitable for a six-footer. That system would account for some members of the FCA appearing so slovenly at times. At the Easter parade in Dublin the members of the FCA who formed the guard of honour were smartly and properly attired.
I did not approve of the Minister's reaction to the Claudia affair, particularly his appearance on television. It suggested to me a southern state in America, where the sheriff, wearing dark glasses and broad-brimmed hat comes out with his guns still smoking.
The Deputy did not like it?
I did not approve of the Army being brought into politics.
The Deputy may not refer to any aspect of the Claudia affair. The Chair has made a ruling on this matter. The matter is sub judice and may not be referred to in this House.
I referred to television. Surely that is not ruled out?
The Deputy may not refer to the Claudia under any circumstances.
I referred to the television incident. Could I say, with respect, that the Minister for Defence, broke the sub judice ruling?
He merely said that he was not going to refer to it, that it was sub judice.
Any references made by me were made before anybody was charged. That is the difference.
In the heat of the moment.
Not at all. On the best advice.
The Minister used the particular position—not saying what it was—not mentioning what it was. The Minister knows what I am referring to. The Minister said——
I must advise the Deputy that I cannot allow him to circumvent the ruling of the Chair by adverting to this matter. The Deputy must get away from this matter immediately.
I will lead on to something else, if given a chance.
May I formally, in your presence, reiterate a point of order that I made while your deputy was in the Chair?
The Chair's views are known on the subject. Deputy Davern.
When I saw Deputy Donegan on television dealing with a certain matter——
A certain man.
A boating man.
——he mentioned that law and order was the theme of his Government and that he personally—"blood and guts Patton"—would do all he could to ensure it. May I ask him why no effort was made or seen to be made in Fermoy so very recently on an occasion when an outrageous speech was made and open military parading was carried out? There is a military barracks situated exactly half a mile from the place where the incident took place. Members of the Garda Síochána were immediately all around the area.
This hardly arises on the Estimate for Defence.
The Estimate for Defence covers national security. The Minister has said that national security is our greatest need. I am referring to national security.
Within the confines of this subject matter of defence, yes.
I am talking about a second army in this country.
The Deputy may not broaden the scope of the debate.
National security is the priority. The Minister said that there is no better place for a young man than in the Army, and no place where at this time he can better serve his country.
I should like to deal with the question of Army training for officers. I fail to see how men who have spent 20 and 30 years in the Army can have respect for an officer who comes out after one year's training. How can he be expected to be fully trained? I am aware that there is a shortage of officers but I would ask the Minister to extend the period of training for officers as soon as possible and to revert to the practice of having full and rigorous training for officers of the Defence Forces.
My first duty will be to compliment the Minister on his new appointment. I regret that I was not here when the Minister introduced the Estimate but I have read his speech and I compliment him. Having regard to the fact that the Minister has been such a short time in the Department it is fair to say that the groundwork has been carried out by his predecessor and perhaps I should compliment Deputy Cronin.
Years ago the Vote for the Department of Defence was somewhat reluctantly granted but events have proved the need for an up-to-date, well-equipped Defence Force. I hope the Minister will continue the good work of his predecessor and will not allow the tempo to be slackened. Army personnel—and there are many of them in the constituency that I represent—are well aware of the care they have enjoyed under a Fianna Fáil Administration and if I were asked to advise the Minister I would say, lean ar aghaidh leis an obair. I would say, má tá a thuille airgid ag teastáil, bíodh sé ar fháil.
We should not skimp in respect of the Army. I mention this particularly because in my constituency, Kildare, the people have a recollection of a previous coalition—it was not a National Coalition at that time—coming into power and cutting down on the numbers in the Corps of Engineers and Board of Works employees in the Curragh Camp. I hope that will not happen. I hope that nothing will be done under the present Administration to reduce the effectiveness of our Army.
The most important item we should deal with in regard to the Army is its strength and I am glad the Minister has considered this and that the strength has been brought up, not to the level we would all like, but to a pretty respectable level. We should aim at a strength of 12,000 NCOs and men and try to achieve it. I rather agree with Deputy Davern that our present recruiting could not be expected to yield better results but I am aware that the extra duties and extra vigilance needed in certain installations and camps have imposed a big burden on the men and that much more is required of them than heretofore.
I shall resurrect an old theme of mine which was not successful with the previous Minister but perhaps the present Minister would think kindly of it. It is that married men be allowed to join the Army. There is an outmoded law which prevents this unless a man had previous service. Formerly the reason, I think, was that married men who were not in the Army when married would impose hardships on their wives by being absent and possibly in danger that the wives did not anticipate on marriage. That rule should no longer apply. I know many very likely candidates who have been turned down by the Army because they were married. This has happened even in industrial towns where work was available. Contrary to what the last speaker said, the Army in my county is now considered to be a very good job. They have had three increases in the past 14 or 15 months and improved conditions have made Army life very attractive. Also, the opportunity for a soldier to go to Cyprus and serve a term there is an added attraction. Our soldiers have done well out there and have proved that they are equal to the best. I hope the Minister will have a fresh look at the recruitment of married men and allow it to go ahead. It would bring up the number somewhat.
A colleague from my constituency mentioned housing. I am glad he did so because I would like to impress on the Minister that while we appreciate that 50 houses are now being built in married quarters at the Curragh Camp —and are being very well built—and are welcome, there is still a great housing need. There is also need to improve existing married quarters there. When the 50 houses are occupied the old houses which will be vacated should be brought up to standard by ensuring that full sanitary services are installed in them and that they are enlarged if possible in some cases. This might mean less accommodation than previously in the old houses but nevertheless it would be a good excercise.
The greatest headache Army personnel approaching retirement have at the Curragh is that there is no type of purchase scheme for houses available to them. We endeavoured to get a site for them and the previous Minister was helpful but apparently the site offered did not meet with the approval of Kildare County Council. A fresh effort was made and I hope that from the Army point of view everything possible will be done to provide approximately six acres in the vicinity of the married quarters now being built at the Curragh so that overholders or Army personnel nearing retirement will have an opportunity of purchasing their own houses. At present if such persons are overholders their pensions are withheld and they may not get Government work for which many of them are well fitted by reason of their previous experience. We should try to solve their problems by providing a site and allowing or asking Kildare County Council, the NBA or some other body to build purchase type houses which these people can eventually hope to own and will not have to leave when they reach retirement. Possibly a look at Kildare Barracks or Dún Mhic Aoidh, as we should call it, where there is also a site available for extra married quarters, might be a help. It is unfortunate that men, who in some cases have given over 30 years service, should not have a chance of owning their own houses and should suffer hardship at the end of their days.
I welcome the fact that a new block is now being built in the Army Apprentice School. This is not out of turn. Installation of central heating there will help also. I know from a visit to Baldonnel that something urgently needs to be done there. People are expected to attend classes there or teach or be trained in conditions which should not apply in 1973. Even at the Curragh some very old barracks are still in need of being modernised. While Army personnel, their wives and families at the Curragh Camp, can have medical attention and care those in Naas and Kildare Barracks are not so fortunate. I believe there is a set day at the Curragh Camp when the Army doctor is prepared to meet wives and families of serving soldiers in Naas Barracks. That is on Mondays. If they do not come and are not conveniently sick on that day they must wait until the following Monday. At very little expense it could be arranged that a local doctor or an Army doctor could be appointed to Naas or Kildare Barracks who would attend wives and families of soldiers there.
I would emphasise and support everything Deputy Davern said regarding free travel for wives of Old IRA men. One of the few occasions on which they might need to travel would arise when the Old IRA man was in hospital and as the rule is now implemented they are debarred from this. At Question Time today the Minister said this was somewhat tied up with social welfare free travel. I cannot see how he is obliged to maintain the tie; perhaps he could break new ground and grant free travel to wives of Old IRA men.
The Minister referred to the visiting committee to the detention barracks at Curragh Camp. He found the committee down to half its strength and has made new appointments. This is a welcome move but I doubt the wisdom of going to his own county to find some of the appointees and whether they will have special care for the people in Kildare or not. A visiting committee which maintains dialogue with the prisoners and makes regular visits there would be helpful. I hope their visit there yesterday when there was some little upset among the prisoners and some alarm, proved effective in helping to relieve their anxieties.
The Minister rightly refers to law and order. As was pointed out previously, this is the most vital need of all. The Minister sees the Army role in its proper perspective. He is not being hypocritical because he is one of the few people who stood by his Taoiseach on that particular night when we were asked to put our cards on the table in regard to law and order. I am aware that the Army welcomed the passing of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Bill. Many of those to whom I talked about it were very pleased indeed; they found life a little more bearable as a result of the passing of the Bill. Before the Bill was passed we had a lunatic fringe who had made up their minds to create a disruption out of all proportion to their numbers and who had promised to ensure that the members of our Defence Forces would not enjoy their Christmas festivities. The Bill had a sobering effect. I am glad the Minister was one of those who saw the light, as his leader did, before other members of his party saw it. The Bill was absolutely necessary and the Army has played its part in seeing that law and order have been preserved. I was rather surprised at a member of the Minister's party, Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan, suggesting that the road from Kildare to the Curragh Camp, leading directly to the detention barracks, should be opened to civilian traffic. That was not a very intelligent suggestion and I am glad our Minister at the time refused to listen to it.
On a point of order, is it in order for the House to proceed without either a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary occupying the front bench? I understand the House must be adjourned if neither a Minister nor a Parliamentary Secretary is present.
That is not a point of order.
On a point of information.
It is quite in order for the debate to continue. I deem it so.
It is a usual courtesy to the House.
Courtesy is another matter.
Courtesy is of some importance.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.
I trust that the nonattendance of the National Coalition members is not a reflection of their feelings in regard to the Estimate for the Department of Defence or the importance of the Department. I am heartened, however, when I remember that the Taoiseach, in his wisdom, put his own favourite son in as the political head of the Department of Defence. He knows he can really trust him in his hour of need. He knows he is someone who will stand by him when danger is nigh. He knows he can be sure that he will be in the right place at the right time.
That is a good thing. The ex-Taoiseach made the mistake of putting in a man he could not trust.
Deputy Power, on the Estimate.
As I was saying, I was rather surprised that Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan should suggest the opening of the road leading from Kildare to the detention barracks on the Curragh. Our Minister did not agree with him. It was not a very intelligent suggestion. Our Defence Forces are put to the pin of their collar to maintain security at all costs. I hope the Minister will not be swayed by foolish suggestions like these emanating from his colleagues. The soldiers are on duty round the clock. They would not welcome Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan's suggestion.
Reference has been made in this debate, as reference was made in past debates, to the sale of some of the Army barracks in Dublin. I am sure such a sale would realise a considerable sum. One speculates as to where the new barracks should be sited. I trust the Minister will not allow local, parochial or county loyalties to sway him in his decision. It has been suggested that the new barracks should be sited in Gormanston. This would be very convenient to the Minister's constituency. I trust this will not be the evolution. The ideal place in which to site a new barracks would be on the Curragh. We have limited resources and a small population. Whatever we do we should do well. Rather than divide our forces by having two barracks we should build one good barracks on the Curragh. The Curragh has everything to commend it. There are good roads. It would be an ideal launching pad and landing place for helicopters. Possibly the present Minister has a greater grá for that type of traffic than the former Minister had. The Curragh is near Dublin. It is near the east coast and I presume it is from that area danger might threaten. As I say, the Curragh has everything. In a new barracks sited elsewhere all these existing amenities would have to be provided. I trust the Minister will go ahead with his predecessor's plan to build a decent modern barracks and I hope he will build it on the Curragh.
The Minister referred to the educational facilities available. These are very much appreciated. I am not referring now to the educational facilities for cadets in the universities. I am referring to the courses available to the Army through the courtesy of Kildare Vocational Education Committee. The Minister referred to the excellent results obtained in the last year or two. Some of those in the Army who never got a chance now feel they are getting a chance. While all may not be in a position to avail of the facilities, those who have the capacity to avail of them should be allowed to do so. I am glad the Minister intends to go ahead with the scheme.
Provision has been made for the purchase of up-to-date equipment. The Minister should press for better transport, better weapons and modern armoured cars. Whatever he does he should do it well. He should look for the money necessary to make our Defence Forces something of which we can be proud. I can assure him that Fianna Fáil will never stint him in regard to money for the Army. The Minister should insist that whatever moneys he requires to make our Army into a really first-class one are made available to him. He might also ask himself what is the role of our air force as he sees it. Does he see it as a security air force or does he see it engaged in rescue work too? He should ensure, whatever role he envisages for our air force, that we have the planes and the helicopters to do a good job.
The Minister should ask himself if An Slua Muirí is purely for fishery protection or if it can also be used for security purposes. He should decide if we have enough strength to ensure if it is engaged in security work that it will be able to carry that work out efficiently. Suppose a boat was approaching our shores with 100 tons of arms and that it intended dropping off five tons here and five tons there, would it not be frightful if it happened that it made 19 stops and had dropped off 95 tons of arms before it was finally stopped and boarded and only five tons found? We should consider that matter very carefully.
If that happened before the 14th of March they would not even have got five tons.
The Minister mentioned that he wishes to see the involvement of Army units in local community sports and activities. We have that involvement in my county where we have wonderful liaison between the Army and the civilians. We have had evidence of this in a local festival which has been referred to as Newbridge, 1970, 1971 and 1972. We hope we will have the privilege of the Minister visiting us for Newbridge, 1973. In previous years we had a parade of armoured cars and massed bands. We have also had a miniature tattoo, a display of motor cycles and the Army gymnastic team. Whenever anybody in Kildare and the surrounding area looks for any of these they can be made available.
The Minister also mentioned the Army Equitation School and some of the recent wins. I hope with the tie up between the Army Equitation School and Bord na gCapall that these wins will herald the dawn of a new era when we might be able to see a return to former glory in that field.
Previous speakers have mentioned the FCA. I should like to thank the previous Minister or whoever is responsible for the issue of the new uniform. The new reliance that has been placed on the FCA in guarding valuable installations throughout the country is very much appreciated by the FCA and by those whose installations they are guarding.
I am not very sure about the role of Civil Defence. It is hard to instil a sense of urgency into the public in this particular type of activity. Many people seem to think that if Civil Defence is ever called on in the event of a nuclear explosion or war there will be nothing left to defend. A bigger propaganda effort is needed at this stage. Some years ago a booklet was issued telling us what to do in the event of an attack and how to hide in a cubby-hole until the danger was over but I am sure very few of these booklets could be found now. A new booklet should be issued. I believe the numbers quoted for those engaged on actual Civil Defence are only numbers on paper. The Minister should take a new look at Civil Defence and its activities throughout the country.
I wish the Minister luck in his new post. He has brought a new zest and even a new boyish dimension to that position. We have got the impression that he is a man who is anxious to get things done quickly and I am sure he will make a great success of his new job. However, there is a genuine fear among Army personnel that the Defence Forces might not be cherished in the future as they have been by Fianna Fáil in the past. I am sure the Minister will look after them well. The Minister and the Army have a very important job to do. The Irish Army has never let down this country in any period in our history and I am sure the present Minister will not let it down either.
I enter the discussion on this Estimate bearing in mind that the present Minister for Defence is hardly comfortable in the seat which was handed on to him by his predecessor. We must give the Minister recognition for what he is trying to do with regard to placing the Army and An Slua Muirí in a position of respect and trust. This was denied to them by previous Ministers of Fianna Fáil. Since I came into this House I have advocated that some incentive should be given to people who have joined An Slua Muirí. What did we get? From my experience I know that An Slua Muirí comprised something like 200 men in the city of Limerick but it is now down to approximately a dozen. This is because there were no facilities made available to young men who went to Sarsfield Barracks two nights a week. The nearest they came to the water was what they saw flowing from the tap in the bathroom and as far as boats and ships were concerned the nearest they ever came to them was what they got out of a jigsaw puzzle.
Those young men were given no experience of the sea by any Fianna Fáil Minister for Defence. We then come along and talk about encouraging this and that but you will never encourage anything unless you give men something to do. This will then encourage other men to come along and join An Slua Muirí. Under the Fianna Fáil administration those young men went to Foynes for a weekend and all they saw was a small boat with an outboard engine. They went out about two miles on the Shannon and came back again to Foynes. That was all the experience they got of life on the sea. Why should we now talk about developing our Naval Service when it was absolutely disregarded by the previous Government?
I have experience of this. I have been associated with An Slua Muirí in Limerick and know of the harassment and frustration suffered by its members. In Sarsfield Barracks such training is not now carried on. It is hard to blame anybody. The Minister lives in a port town and knows what should be done. I ask him to consider the position carefully and to do what his predecessor failed to do. We should develop our maritime services, including our fishing services. If young people entered the maritime services they would be ready and willing to serve when necessary if they got the encouragement of which they were deprived by the Fianna Fáil Government. That is all I have to say about An Slua Muirí. I do not want to talk too much about the frustrations in the past in case I should discourage young people from joining. This force suffered from a lack of consideration on the part of the Fianna Fáil Government.
In the past I have advocated that there should be compulsory Army service. I still hold that view. Boys of 17 or 18 years should have Army training as part of their curriculum. We see everywhere the waywardness of youth. If we got them into the Army and had them out on the barrack square and showed them discipline and what it means to do their duty when called upon we would be doing a great service. It would serve our nation.
We must approach the development of our youth from all angles. Army training might be better for them than learning alpha, beta and gamma or mensa, mensa, mensam, and whether Mr. Euclid or Mr. Shakespeare would give them two honours or more in their examinations is not the culmination of their development or the development of the nation. The development of youth is physical as well as mental. The only way we can develop them physically is in the Army. We must make it so attractive that they will come in happily and serve for two years or so. The Minister would be well advised to introduce compulsory Army service.
I come from Limerick which used be a garrison city. From my experience with the men, which has been fairly close, I know that a proper medical service should be provided for the families of such men. The members of the Army have free medical treatment. Some of them have large families. The Army personnel are not eligible for free medical services under the Western Health Board. I see no reason why the wife and family of an Army man should not be entitled to the same medical service as he is. I said this to a previous Minister and got the arrogant reply which was typical in the past. I do not know whether the Ministers of the Fianna Fáil Government have recovered from the concussion they suffered or whether they are still concussed. I do not know whether they have realised that they are now in Opposition. They should realise that they are living in a world in which everything is visible. We face the realities of today. The Fianna Fáil Party did not realise that we knew what we were talking about. The people endorsed everything we said. When we went before the people at the end of March and told them there would be a change we did not mean that one person would be getting out of a Mercedes car and somebody else getting into it. That was not the change we meant. We meant that we were going to uproot the arrogant foundation on which Fianna Fáil were built. We are doing that.
This applies particularly to the conditions under which Army personnel are now serving. Army personnel cannot complain to any public representative. Any Army man who approaches any Member of this House about his conditions would be court-martialled. Army personnel must suffer without having a voice through a trade union, association or society and without going to the public representatives elected by their votes. They are entitled to vote but cannot approach their elected representatives on any matter concerning conditions in the Army. That must be changed. I see no reason why, having the right to cast their votes, they should not also have the right to go to public representatives with their complaints. I believe they have the right and the entitlement to approach any public representative if their demands require it.
Too much has been said with regard to the Army generally. People in the Army should have the right to approach a public representative to make a complaint. If they do that now they are for instant court-martial and that is not right. I should like to tell the Minister that we want change and we will get it. What has been happening intermittently since 1932 is gone forever and we want to see that it stays that way. The only way we can do it is by giving a service and an account of our stewardship and we will do that.
I would appeal to the Minister to make an effort to meet the people. At the moment we hear a lot about meeting the people and I suppose we will hear even more about it before the end of May. When the rent strikes were on. When the farmers were on strike, when there were hunger strikes, nobody wanted to meet the people. However, the people will make a decision and we all know what will happen. Although I am a betting man I will keep that for my outdoor activities.
During the term of office of the last Government I visited most of the barracks throughout the country and I saw what educational facilities were available. I saw what was being done with regard to vocational training in Clonmel and university training in Galway and it was admirable but too limited. Vocational training should be developed in a vigorous manner and not confined to the barracks. In Clonmel the boys go to the vocational school which is just across the road.
When boys of 18 or 20 years enlist in the Army technical and vocational training should be made available to them either within the precincts of the barracks or by attending day courses at vocational schools or any other suitable course, as happens in the apprenticeship courses being conducted by AnCO and other institutions. I know of the vigour and the capacity of the Minister to tackle any problem—not like his predecessor—and I know he can get the job done. If we want an Army that will have the respect of the nation for its discipline, honesty and mannerly approach to life we should provide the facilities I have mentioned.
I know Army life can become very monotonous. Unless there are exercises and operations carried out both indoors and outdoors young boys may become frustrated, lackadaisical and dilatory. We must make Army life attractive to them. They must realise first, that they are enlisting in the Army to serve the nation; secondly, that they will be well paid; and thirdly, that they will not be overlooked and partially despised as they were by the previous Government. They must be made to realise that we depend on them to uphold the traditions of our nation. If this is made clear there will be an influx of young people anxious to serve the country.
I should like to see a programme of housing for members of the Army. When they apply for housing accommodation or for medical services they are treated as private citizens. We are doing very little with regard to providing housing accommodation for people in the Defence Forces. In the report there is mention of a few houses being built in Athlone and in other places and that they are being centrally-heated, but this is only scratching the surface. I should like to see in the report the number of applicants from the Army for housing accommodation and the number of applications that have been fulfilled by the Army authorities and by the previous Minister. I am not asking the present Minister. I am just pointing out to him the dilatory inept approach of his predecessors, each and every one of them down the line; not only Deputy Cronin, but everyone in Fianna Fáil who dealt with the Army in the same way. When the call came the Army was a great place. These lads jumped to attention and served the nation well. Then they were forgotten again.
Another matter on which I wish to dwell is the Equitation School which has been reneged, deserted and absolutely forgotten by the Fianna Fáil Government. Let us remember that the Equitation School brought honour to this nation. Not alone did they acquit themselves well here but they achieved great recognition for this country all over Europe and America. We all know the great men of those days, the Lewis's, the Corrys, the Hartys. They went all over the world and brought recognition and fame to this country.
Since then what has happened? The school was forgotten. Our best show jumpers were bought and taken out of the country by the Japanese, the Italians and the Spaniards, because we did not make available sufficient funds to our Army team, not to mention individual private competitors such as Irish Kellett and many others. I admit that it is an expensive exercise. What did we do with the Army jumping team? I know what goes on at these competitions. There are receptions. There is mingling and there are social gatherings and get-togethers. I know from men who competed at the time, and who brought honour to this nation all over the world, that they were left standing like "pilgarlicks", with one hand as long as another when it came to entertainment. Money was not provided for them. All those great men at that time, the Aherns, the Lewis's, the Corrys, the Hartys, had to put their hands in their own pockets to stand shoulder to shoulder with the other competing nations. That was neither fair nor just.
That is what happened to the Army jumping team. Nobody can deny it because I am stating a fact. If we want to project an image of our Army and our Equitation School, let us set aside sufficient funds to enable them to stand shoulder to shoulder with their opponents, and not have them in the position in which Fianna Fáil put them when they were going around the world trying to bring honour to this State. Whatever good jumpers we had were snapped up. As I said, people came from Japan, Spain, France and Germany and bought the best of our horses. These horses have competed and acquitted themselves well for those countries when they should have had a green uniform on their backs. The Fianna Fáil Government were miserable in spending and in trying to protect an image. They did it in many other ways but less fruitful ways.
I appeal now to our new Minister to make the change the people voted for and to give us the change they want not alone in Education, Local Government, Health and Social Welfare but also in the Department of Defence. Deputies all know what I mean by change. Tear up the worn linoleum— it was never a carpet—from under the previous Government. Discard it and burn it and let us inject into the Army and the lads of Ireland who will now be donning the Irish uniform of this Republic a realisation that they are the foundation of this nation. Let them realise that we cherish them as much as we do the overpaid civil servants. Let them realise that when they join the Army they are joining to fight for the nation, that their lives will not be too lackadaisical and that we will give them an education, either vocational or technical. Let it be known to every man or every boy who enlists in the Army that the position of O.C. of a command is at his disposal if he applies himself accordingly. Let it not be a closed shop.
There is another matter I want to raise. With regard to the cadetships the rule was and still is that having done the prescribed examination for the educational standard, in order to curtail admissions there is a strict medical examination. The "stupidosity" of this medical has had me baffled for many a long day. In no ordinary way the medical men of the Army call the cadet elect for examination and, if one tooth does not cover the other tooth, top or bottom, he is culled immediately. This was brought to my attention. A lad was culled because of the fact that his teeth were in disarray through no fault of his own. They just did not lap each other as they should. When his parents came to me I said: "I will tell you what you will do. Go around to your dentist and get the whole lot drawn top and bottom and get him dentures and when they are equally divided one on top of the other we will see whether he will pass." They thought the whole thing was a joke. They did not know exactly what I had in mind. This is exactly the position. This is the stupidity with which the medical examination for cadetship is carried out in the Army and I defy any former Fianna Fáil Minister to tell me I am not telling the truth. I know it. Some of the boys who are now in Opposition may not realise that what I am saying is absolutely true because they did not bother their heads when in Government to listen to what we were saying to them but Mr. Arrogant is gone and gone forever.
This is the position with regard to entry into the Cadet Corps. I know that university facilities are available for some of them but on what basis of commonsense is a man who has one tooth out of place, top or bottom, denied admission as a cadet? When I questioned this out of court, I was told: "We were getting too many applicants and we had to do something. The standards of education were all achieved but we had to stop it some way or other and this was the only way we could do it." Did anybody ever hear such nonsense? That was the position while Fianna Fáil were in power and let nobody think otherwise.
Having said these things, I must pay a tribute to the helicopter service, of which I had experience in the past two months. It was the case of a man who went down the Shannon, having being doing it all his life and knowing as we all thought, every drop of water in it. He was missing for some seven or eight hours and his father and mother and their friends came to me to do something about it. The guards were contacted and I contacted the Army at the time. Knowing the Shannon as I do, I knew that there are many small islands where this man could have been, possibly all night. Within an hour, the helicopter service was down, flying very low over every island in the Shannon for any sign of life in the river or on the banks, with their heavy growth of reeds and the silt where he could have been stuck. Within one hour of my making contact with the service, the helicopter was down, but to no avail, I am sorry to say. What exactly happened to this young man has not been resolved but that is nothing against the helicopter service and the Army. They were very quick and alert on the job.
When recruits are sent to Cork or Clonmel for training of a particular type—I speak as a Limerickman and from experience—in many cases these recruits are needed more at home, for one reason or another. There may be a widowed mother or a father on national health and whatever the activities they are engaged in in these places, they should be sent back to their base as soon as possible. I will say for the present Minister—not so much for his predecessor who was lackadaisical about it—any time I made representations and produced evidence that my representations were just, the matter was rectified. These young lads who join the Army should be kept as near home as possible for many reasons and the sending of these boys to places too far from home is something the Minister should consider. Their family circumstances should be taken into account. If they are needed at home, leave them at home and let us open our technical and vocational schools to them, giving them crash courses as we do with other apprenticeship cases.
Let us give the families of Army men full medical services which they are not getting at present and let us make life more attractive, more interesting for these men. Let us take the monotony out of Army life which was injected into it by the Fianna Fáil Government.
I should like to take this opportunity to wish the Minister well in his new post and to assure him of every assistance we can give him in relation to the betterment of the service. I have felt during the years that enough could not be done for the security forces of the nation, the Garda and the Army, and any contribution made is one we cannot boast about because for far too long the Army, the Naval Service and, indeed, the Air Corps have been deprived of many of the rights to which they are entitled, whatever Minister was in office. While great strides were made, a lot still remains to be done. I hope the Minister will set about carrying on the good work set in train by previous Ministers. The contributions by Members of this House who are now on the Government side, in Opposition, were constructive in their approach to many problems and they made many viable and worthy suggestions and let us hope that the House will continue to treat the Army in this manner.
We were issued today with possibly the greatest document of all time and I want to deal with it in very exact detail because it reminds me very much of the comic opera "The Pirates of Penzance". We have been told by ministerial decree that there are certain things we cannot and must not discuss. References have been made to "certain occasions" and we have had similar vague references to these matters. These are matters on which we must have further comment but it was interesting to hear Deputy Coughlan, a member of the National Coalition group, suggest conscription, that we should have military service for everyone. I think we have passed the stage at which conscription is necessary and I do not think that the public at large will fall in with his suggestion.
The other suggestion he made was laughable, that in order to get into the Army, you should get your teeth out. This was one of the suggestions he made to his constituent whose family came to him to complain about rejection for the Cadet Corps. The Army want more teeth and for that reason this type of advice is not very good. It is in keeping with the type of comment we have heard here in the last few months.
In relation to the Minister's speech, first of all, I too would like to be associated with the views expressed in relation to the United Nations Peace-Keeping Force to which we have made a very substantial contribution throughout the years. I should like to refer to the dignity and courage with which these men served, some of them on the Reserve and some still serving, and to the contribution they made to peace-keeping efforts in a number of countries. No words of ours could adequately or suitably express our appreciation of these courageous men. Efforts should be made at this stage to ensure that when they re-enter civilian life they will not have to accept jobs as petrol pump attendants or other menial jobs not in keeping with the dignity of ex-servicemen. I shall deal with that matter later. I hope the Government will take adequate steps in relation to their re-settlement. These men have been praised by all parties and by individuals in this House. No words of ours can do justice to them.
The recruiting drive has been reasonably successful and according to the Minister's statement the net strength rose by approximately 2,000 men since March, 1970. The fact that the Army is attractive must mean that substantial improvements have been made. It is good that the recruiting drive has been successful. I have not always been satisfied with the type of advertising employed and the gimmickry used in television programmes. Gimmickry in relation to Army recruiting should be dispensed with. Gimmicks should not be employed for such a purpose. If men are offered a healthy life and good prospects recruiting will continue. I take it that efforts will be made to increase recruitment. With the improvement in conditions I have no doubt that there will be an influx of recruits.
The prospect of service in the Middle East and elsewhere has been an attraction. The Minister has told us that we continue to maintain a contingent of 142 officers and men in Cyprus and a group of 21 officers with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation in the Middle East. That is a significant contribution and involves increased responsibility and additional duties on serving personnel.
I should like to be associated with the references to the military bomb disposal personnel, the very courageous, highly trained men who carry out their work in a very creditable manner. No praise of mine could do justice to them.
The next matter referred to by the Minister is the military detention barracks at the Curragh Camp. The Minister has indicated that he is not satisfied with certain aspects of this. Whatever is undesirable must be rectified. If it is a question of overcrowding, transfers should take place in order to render conditions tolerable. It is not good enough for a Minister to say that there is an undesirable aspect in relation to detention. Some detainees suffer substantially. As a result of detention they may develop disabilities. If there are major defects, such as overcrowding and lack of exercise facilities, they must be rectified as soon as possible. The prisoners must get adequate protection and all necessary facilities. Alternative arrangements must be made in order to relieve overcrowding.
On a point of order, I am sure Deputy Dowling will forgive me for interrupting him to point out that there are seven Fianna Fáil Deputies in the House, No Labour Deputy and three Fine Gael Deputies.
That is not a point of order. Deputy Dowling.
Could we have a House, Sir?
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
With regard to Deputy Byrne's reference to my calling for a quorum, I will wear out those bells before long.
The Minister said that Deputies would recall his predecessor's announcement in the House that he hoped to have a certain type of armoured vehicle manufactured in this country. This is a very desirable and very worthy experiment. I am quite certain of the competence of Irishmen to produce such equipment. I am confident that we will be able to produce vehicles as good as any produced by the French, the Germans or any others. During the time that I was in the Army, in the war years, there was quite a variety of material manufactured here that was just as good as anything that could be imported. I am quite certain that we can compete with foreign countries in the production of armoured vehicles. I am glad that the Minister is continuing this policy.
What about the chassis factory in Inchicore?
The Minister told us that a new uniform cloth was produced last year for the Army and the FCA. I am glad. It was time that the use of bulls wool and other materials was discontinued and that something fairly respectable was put in their place.
Now I come to an important part of the Minister's introductory statement. The Minister dealt with the helicopter service and told us that during the past year two additional helicopters were supplied to the helicopter section "which is giving such a good account of itself on ambulance and rescue work, as well as carrying out military missions". The Minister said that provision is made this year for two military aircraft and an additional helicopter.
The Minister continued:
The helicopter fleet will then stand at seven. May I say sincere thanks to the men of the Helicopter Air Sea Rescue Service for their work on a certain occasion....
What occasion was that? Was it the occasion when the Minister flew across the Border? Was it the occasion when he was photographed by press and television entering and leaving the helicopter? He has been in and out of this helicopter so many times——
It was the occasion when my two best friends were drowned and when that helicopter was flying within two minutes. That was the occasion. The Deputy should not go so low.
Is the Minister sure it was not another occasion——
If Deputy Dowling wants to go so low there are personalities involved.
The Minister will have an opportunity of replying.
I do not like that sort of dirt.
The Minister will have an opportunity to reply.
Vagueness is not desirable; one should know exactly what is in the Minister's mind. To say "a certain occasion" is the same as saying "certain people".
I shall have my opportunity to tell the Deputy exactly. It is a very personal matter.
If it is a personal matter it should not be in the Minister's speech. Perhaps the Minister is somewhat perturbed by the fact that he has worn out some of these helicopters since he became Minister. He has the use of them and I am sure he will avail of them. I am certain they must carry a permanent cameraman on their missions to photograph the Minister.
Is it the next election the Deputy is thinking about?
(Interruptions.)
The Minister referred to the Claudia incident. We are told by him and by the chair that we may not discuss this affair in relation to the movement of military personal or the naval services. I want to cite a hypothetical case.
The Deputy will not be allowed to refer to this particular case.
I would not think of referring to this incident but if a situation arose where an unnamed ship was carrying arms towards this country and was apprehended by the Naval Service and taken into port, what type of search would be made of the vessel?
Fianna Fáil could not get one in four years.
Is it searched for fish, or for fish and arms? Do they examine the log book and the vessel's documents to ensure that everything is in order? If they find that a member of the crew is missing what action is taken against the apprehended vessel? In a situation where an unnamed vessel sails towards our shores and where a general alert went out from the Department of Defence——
The Deputy will not be allowed to proceed on this basis.
He is jealous because Fianna Fáil could not catch them in four years.
Since the present Government came into office this is the third day of sitting of the Dáil and Deputies are being deprived, first of an opportunity of putting down questions and now of referring to matters——
The Deputy will not be allowed to question the ruling of the Chair.
I should like to know how many vessels have been apprehended by the Naval Service in the past six months.
A Deputy
How many got through in the past four years?
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy should be allowed to proceed.
How many vessels were apprehended in the past six months or the past four years?
(Interruptions.)
Deputies should allow the Deputy in possession to proceed.
They are upsetting me. Could the Minister tell us how many vessels were apprehended in the past 12 months and, in order to suit the other side, I shall say in the past four years.
Fianna Fáil ex-Ministers should be able to tell the Deputy that.
Very good work was done in the apprehension and detection of these vessels. I understand these vessels were taken to port and searched and that confiscation of their equipment and fish followed. Did this apply to all vessels or is selective justice used so that some vessels can go free although carrying material or equipment that would cause quite a flutter here? Has there been selective justice as regards the vessels apprehended?
Ask the ex-Ministers; they know.
Will the precedent created indicate that other vessels can now come to our shores carrying goods other than fish, be apprehended and released? On the occasion when the last or second last vessel was apprehended, did they search it for fish or did they find any fish aboard? If not it would appear that the only offence that can be committed by smugglers or by people trading along the coasts of Europe in a rather peculiar way——
Gun-runners, the Deputy means.
It would appear that they can sail freely to our shores and have a guarantee that they will not be apprehended.
Ask the ex-Ministers.
Is the Naval Service provided only to apprehend fishing boats and if they make a mistake by apprehending a boat with a fishy sort of background, do they allow it to go because on a not-so-distant occasion one was let go and that was a fairly fishy story? The instructions that are now being given to the Naval Service are of grave concern. Is this done in conjunction with the Department of Justice? Is the apprehension done by one Department and the prosecuting by another Department? If so, how many Departments are involved in the arrest and release of vessels coming into our waters?
Two.
If two Departments are involved there are very definite problems in store for the Minister and one of his colleagues.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy should be allowed to make his speech without interruption and should be heard respectfully.
I am getting into deep water. This seems to be a matter about which the House as a whole is very concerned. I spoke about other matters such as bulls wool and it did not raise a voice from the Opposition but, apparently, the arrest of vessels by the Naval Service is a matter that causes quite a considerable amount of interruption from the Opposition or the Government as you may call them. I hope the Minister will refer to the question of selective justice in relation to certain types of vessels. Has an undertaking been given that no arrests will be made in the case of certain types of vessels and certain types of illegal trading? Will there be any advertance to the fact that crew members are missing, having jumped overboard, been thrown overboard or shanghaied? This seems to be a very odd situation. This is a very serious matter. Was any examination made? Was there an examination of all the documents?
I must point out to the Deputy that he may not refer to a matter which has been deemed to be sub judice. The Deputy may not attempt to get around it by subterfuge.
I am referring to the old fishing boats.
The Deputy will please get away from the subject. He may not refer to it again.
I want to refer to the Naval Service. I want to congratulate the officers and ratings on the wonderful work they have been doing in the apprehension of foreign boats around our coast.
There has been a big improvement since the new Government took office.
I want to ask the Minister will we have an opportunity at some later stage of discussing a certain item mentioned in his brief? Will we have a full and comprehensive discussion? I take it the House will have such an opportunity.
If it will not embarrass the Deputy's own party he can discuss it.
The question of a man overboard is not sub judice. The question of a boat loading in Libya is not sub judice.
The Deputy may not get around the subject by this subterfuge.
I think he is referring to some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies who were thrown overboard.
May I not refer to our Naval Service, to its officers and ratings who have done their jobs so efficiently?
The Deputy will not be allowed to engage in subterfuge.
I just want to compliment the officers and ratings.
The Deputy may not refer, even obliquely, to a matter deemed out of order.
Which matter is that?
The matter to which the Deputy seeks to refer by subterfuge.
I want to congratulate our Naval Service. It has been the butt of numerous jokes. This sort of thing is degrading. I do not think the service is a joke. I think the officers and ratings have done wonderful work. They have much to their credit.
The Minister said:
The provisions of a naval force on the scale sufficient to patrol our length of coastline is beyond the financial capabilities of this country, but that does not mean that we must cast it summarily aside. It must take its place, and a larger place, in the work of guarding our country's security. By their behaviour and ability, its officers and ratings show ready aptitude to take that greater place.
I agree with the Minister in that. I will have another opportunity of dealing with the man who missed the boat.
The Fianna Fáil Deputy in the Deputy's constituency went overboard.
Where equipment is concerned. I hope the Minister will ensure that it will get top priority and that we will have nothing but the best. According to press reports we have not got the best. We have nothing to match the Russian AK 47s which were imported. The Minister must ensure that we have the best weapons possible. He has some in stock and a substantial quantity of ammunition now to service them. These weapons fire 600 rounds a minute. The Minister should try to find a superior weapon to the AK 47 which came in in large quantities. I should not like to see our military at a disadvantage vis-à-vis equipment brought in illegally.
Who brought it in illegally?
I am not allowed to speak about it. I just want to ensure that we get a weapon superior to anything that has been brought in. What about the prevention of the importation of material across the Border? Has any stuff been apprehended on the Border? What role do the military play? Is it defensive? Is everything done to ensure that weapons will not be brought in across the Border? Some people have been picked up with one or two rifles and a few rounds of ammunition. They have been before the courts. They are now in jail. At the same time one can land——
I have advised the Deputy that he must not advert to this subject and, if he continues to flout the authority of the Chair, I will have to deal with him.
I just want to know is there a difference between smuggling on land and smuggling by sea. That is all I want to know. I am sure the Minister will tell us when he comes to reply. I am sure he will also deal with the question of selective justice.
The Minister referred to educational facilities. The development of these facilities has been very creditable. I hope that the facilities will be further developed until such time as every serving soldier has an opportunity of advancing himself in a real way.
The Minister referred to the participation by Army teams "in games of all codes". Surely the Minister is trying to mislead the House here because we know as a result of reports in the newspapers some time ago that certain sportsmen in the Army were not allowed to participate in certain sports. I have been told that sportsmen have been denied opportunities of representing their country because they are in the Army. That is bound to have a very serious effect on the furtherance of sport in the Army. This is a matter I shall be dealing with in greater detail at 10.30 to night. I shall by then have accumulated more information.
What the Minister says in his brief is just a lot of "bull". He indicates all the things he would like to see happening but at the same time he endeavours to sabotage sporting instincts in Army personnel. It is a good thing to see young men in the armed services representing the country in sporting activities. Every effort should be made to ensure that Garda officers and other sportsmen can take their place among the best. In the past we had a great number of international sportsmen in the Army. I hope the development of sporting activities will lead us back to that situation. I can understand that their present duties may not leave them much time for a lot of sporting activities. The Minister should examine the position of the participation of Army personnel in sporting activities abroad. When he refers to sporting activities does he mean that Army personnel should only take part in local carnivals and community sports or does he want them to represent the nation? We must expand from the parish pump type of mentality which would have the Army participate only in local activities. This is outmoded in the present day. This seems to be the thinking behind the Minister's reference.
I now want to deal with a few other points and I hope I will not be ruled out of order. As I mentioned, a member of the National Coalition has called for conscription. I know when supporters of the National Coalition read that in the papers tomorrow they will not like it. Is Deputy Coughlan's conscription speech— I do not know if the Minister had any hand in it—the sounding board for conscription? This is the way this situation comes about. It is not the first occasion on which a Deputy was sent into the House to make a suggestion and it was followed up afterwards. If this is to happen now a lot of people can prepare to be called into the service. I am quite sure this is not the case now as it would be a very undesirable step. If the Minister is thinking in the same terms as his colleague then he should think again. The people will not stand for conscription.
I would like to agree with Deputy Power and others in relation to the apprentice school at Naas and the apprentice school at Casement Aerodrome and that in the Naval Service. I, like Deputy Power and other Deputies, visited the apprentice school at Naas and also the one at Baldonnel. While I was encouraged by certain aspects of the training I was very disillusioned coming away when I saw the type of equipment on which young men were learning their trades. We should have the very best of equipment available in our apprentice schools. Some of the equipment in those schools is very much out-of-date and is not suitable for training young men. It is very difficult for instructors to teach their pupils when they only have antiquated machinery in Naas and in Baldonnel.
The replacement of machinery in those apprentice schools is long overdue. I mentioned this matter on the Defence Estimate in previous years and I hope, now that this matter has been mentioned in the Minister's brief and that we are all conscious of giving young men who enter the Army an opportunity of learning a trade, that the necessary means by which they can equip themselves effectively will be provided.
When I visited Nass one of the appalling things that struck me was that a local planning authority could hold up there the development of better living quarters. This situation should be sorted out between the Army personnel and the local authority concerned. Young men should not have to live in huts which are badly insulated and not very warm. This must have a very undesirable effect on young men entering the Army and must leave a very marked impression on their minds when they leave. When they leave the Army they will tell other people what the situation is like and we will find it difficult to get new recruits.
The young men who join the Army and the Naval Service come from good homes and they are entitled to proper living accommodation. This may be one of the factors which has cut down the influx into the Army and the Naval Service. I know that central heating is being installed but it is long overdue. Some of the barracks could not be effectively centrally heated without very large expenditure. It is almost impossible to try to heat a barracks like Collins Barracks; it would be cheaper to build new accommodation in order to give the Army personnel the home comforts to which they are entitled.
The Minister should take a serious look at the advisability of putting central heating into some units which might not be used for a very long period. If it is possible and it is found reasonable to provide central heating then it should be done, but I do not believe it is advisable to put it into some of the old structures. When I served in some of the old barracks we were expected to heat them with a sod of turf but that day is gone. Expert opinion should be obtained in regard to providing central heating in Army barracks.
The married quarters in the McDonagh Barracks in the Curragh are a disgrace to the service. I am certain that in Dublin city the local authority would regard the occupants of that barracks as being people in immediate need of housing accommodation. The Minister should have a look at some of the married quarters in the Curragh. They are cramped and small, and facilities are non-existent. If we are to attract people who are dependent on the married quarters such quarters should be very suitable. The extension of services to the married quarters at Connolly Barracks and at the top of the Curragh was a creditable exercise.
It was carried out in an expert way. Some married quarters need to be demolished and new quarters erected. Some of the married quarters in Arbour Hill and Cathal Brugha Barracks are in a bad state of repair. I do not think it is necessary or desirable that people should be coralled in quarters within the barrack walls. We have reached a situation where we should ensure that married quarters are built away from military centres because a military centre is a target of attack in time of war and we are putting the wives and children of military personnel at risk in such a situation.
The married quarters in Arbour Hill and Cathal Brugha Barracks should be demolished. An effort should be made to ensure that new quarters are built outside the barracks. In Dublin the situation is difficult. There are a number of overholders and they present problems to the Minister. Some Minister will have to deal with these problems in an effective, courageous and humane way. People who have given their lives to the nation can find that they have no homes at the end of their days and that their pensions are retained and rent increased because they have to maintain themselves in married quarters. On the other hand, young married soldiers expect accommodation. They feel that as serving personnel they are entitled to this facility. I do not know how the problem can be tackled. The Minister will have my sympathy in dealing with it.
A man in married quarters may have five or six children. After about 20 years some of them may go away with the result that the family is not entitled to housing by the local authority. There should be consultation between the housing authority and the Army. Something must be done to eliminate this problem. The rights and interests of the young married soldiers and of the people who have given long service must be closely examined.
On previous occasions I suggested that a man with about ten or 12 years' Army service left should have expert advice available to him in regard to accommodation in his old age. He should have advice about grants and loans and also about local authority accommodation if he qualifies for it. The situation should not be allowed to develop to where an Army man is left without hope of a home after his family have gone. In recent years a number of officers have specialised in acting in an advisory capacity. Much more needs to be done. Advice should be given in preparation for the last ten or 12 years. It should be given at a time when a man can procure a loan for house purchase. Persons with pensions to their credit might be able to obtain loans from the Department of Defence against their gratuities. People might then be able to exist without ending their lives in married quarters in barracks. Everyone will assist the Minister in tackling this difficult problem.
I must mention pre-discharge leave and the manner in which this leave is granted and terminated. Perhaps the Minister would examine this leave in some detail. In the past I knew of two people being released from the service on pre-discharge leave and one could obtain a job and maintain his pre-discharge leave while the other, if he set about obtaining employment in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs or the Department of Defence, would have to forego such leave. Such leave was given to assist a person to re-settle himself. If that is the real factor it makes no difference where he obtains employment, whether it is in the post office. Roadstone, Bord na Móna or elsewhere. Re-settlement leave or pre-discharge leave is a matter which the Minister must examine. He must make the necessary modifications. I am sure there are instances where a man finds himself an overholder in married quarters because he cannot obtain the employment to which he is entitled. In some instances a man would have to get out of a barracks in order to get a job. If he got out to get a house he would not get pre-discharge leave. I am sure that the necessary modifications to this scheme have not yet been made. I am not sure whether pre-discharge leave is the proper title. Questions have been asked of Ministers about re-settlement leave. The whole position should be examined.
I would like to comment on some of the suggestions which have been made from time to time by district justices and other people in relation to offenders. One would think that the Army was a place of refuge for offenders. They are told "the Army is the proper place for you". This is a degrading attitude which should not be tolerated. The men who enter the Army come from good homes. I do not think that criminals of one type or another should be pawned off on them.
I am glad the Department of Defence have taken a stand on this. From time to time there have been references by a number of people on the Bench that a person facing the court with a list of convictions should join the Army. I am glad to see that the Department of Defence have laid down that only people of good character are allowed to enlist in the Army. We should ensure that only the best type of person is attracted into the Army by ensuring that there are no more music-hall jokes such as the Minister referred to in his statement in relation to the Naval Service. It has happened that certain sections of the Army, the Navy and the Air Corps have been the butt of puns by music-hall merchants and I have no regard whatever for the people in high positions who have made those suggestions.
I wish the Minister well in his office. I hope to have an opportunity of discussing the matters I was not allowed to debate tonight. I have been assured we will get that opportunity because there has been a certain amount of comment on these matters in the press and on television. Possibly there is a reasonable explanation of these matters. The Minister's task is not an easy one in these times of disorder and tension but if the Minister makes a determined effort to ensure that the Army services will be more effective and if he gives consideration to pay and conditions he will have my support.
People in the Army should be paid adequately. I do not think that their service can be compared with the service given by any other section of the community. People in our Defence Forces are prepared to give their lives for the country. I hope that whatever pay claims may be made by them in the future will be divorced from those submitted by any other section. It has been my belief that the Defence Forces are entitled to more money but I do not think that pay alone means everything. Other factors must be examined and rectified or the same problem will remain with regard to recruitment. On that score I hope the Minister will not take any notice of what Deputy Coughlan said in relation to conscription.
I should like to agree with previous speakers in their praise of the Defence Forces both on land and on the sea. I should like to see a continuation of what has been done for our Defence Forces with regard to the provision of amenities and facilities. Artificial obstacles such as oral Irish, or even the minor complaint of bad teeth, should be removed so that all people of ability and integrity who wish to do so can serve in the Defence Forces.
With regard to the Naval Service, the Minister told us that finance is a real problem. I accept that but perhaps a new approach could be tried. We are now in the EEC and our southern seaboard is wide open to an onslaught of foreign fishing boats from Europe. We are not adequately protected in this area and I see no reason for this. Any money spent in this regard would be worthwhile expenditure because our fishing industry is only in its infancy and, given the chance, it will expand and grow. This will happen only if it is protected.
I would make a suggestion to the Minister. We could show to the European nations that when it comes to the defence we do not think in the context of men-of-war, of speedboats, or of very expensive vessels that cost £1 million; rather, we should think in terms of trawlers fitted with superior engines capable of 13 to 14 knots. We should have a sufficient number of these vessels that would act as a deterrent to any foreign fishermen. Just as our armoured cars can be built at home, so can these vessels be built in our boatyards. I am told that a vessel of this type would cost about £70,000 and this is not expensive. In addition, it would enable our young naval cadets to operate a vessel in seagoing conditions, it would give them a chance to train and to practise and it would remove some of the cynicism regarding our Naval Service.
I should like to compliment our Naval Service on their work in the past. With a limited number of ships they have protected our waters reasonably well but the onslaught is yet to come and we must be prepared for it. The Minister has a direct responsibility in this matter. Any money spent on our Naval Service would be worthwhile expenditure.
Ba mhaith liom a rá ar dtús go bhfuil mo dheaghthoil ag an Aire san obair atá idir lámha aige. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis a dhualgaisí náisiúnta mar Aire a chomhlíonadh faid a bheidh sé san Aireacht. San óráid a thug sé tá áthas orm a thúirt faoi ndeara go bhfuil sé beartaithe aige príomh-phointí an pholasaí a tháinig chuige ón iar-Rialtas a chur i gcrích. Tá áthas orm, ar ndóigh, go bhfuil méadú de os cionn 2,000 i líon an Airm le dhá bhliain go leith anuas.
Is dócha go dtagann an méadú sin as an pá árdaithe agus, chomh maith leis sin, as an dul ar aghaidh atá déanta le cúpla bliain anuas sna h-úirlisí atá le fáil ag an Arm agus as an gcaighdeán beatha san Arm. Is maith an rud é go bhfuil an méadú náisiúnta bliantúil chun an pá a ardú anois go dtí £20.75p an duine. Ceabhróidh sé cun daoine óga a mhealladh isteach san Arm mar, faoi mar a deireann an tAire, tá suas le 2,000 eile ag teastáil.
Maidir leis na Forsaí Cosanta go h-iomlán, tá moladh agus comhgháirdeachas ag dul dóibh as an féinsmacht a theaspáin siad le roint blianta anuas sna deacrachtaí a bhaineas le cúrsaí an náisiúin. Tá áthas orm go n-aithníonn an tAire féin an dualgas atá ar dhaoine óga seirbhís a thúirt don tír an Arm agus tá, faoi mar atá luaite ag chuid de na Teachtaí, ard-mholadh ag dul dóibh siúd a chaith a saol san Arm agus dóibh siúd a fhéachann i ndiaidh na mbuamaí. Rud an-deacair is ea é seo agus tá an-chalmacht ag baint leis.
Is maith a rud é an nua-éide Airm a bheith ar fáil anois ní amháin don Arm ach don FCA chomh maith. Chomh maith leis sin, rinne an tAire tagairt don pholasaí atá ann chun ceann aras núa a thógáil. Ba mhaith liom, níos déanaí, cúpla focal a rá ar an ábhar sin. Is maith an rud é freisin go bhfuil cead á thúirt ag an Aire dona h-oifigigh áiseanna peile agus linnte snámha a chur ar fáil. Seo ceann de na deachreachtaí a bhaineann leis na beairicí atá againn i mBaile Átha Cliath.
Tá árd-mholadh ag dul chomh maith dóibh sin a thug seirbhís le roint blianta anuas sa bhFórsa Cosanta Sibhialta. Deir an tAire go bhfuil 23,000 ann agus go bhfuil siad ag obair; má tá, is an-mhaith an comhartha é. Tá rud amháin a mholfainn don Aire i dtaobh an Fhórsa Cosanta Sibhialta. Ní dóigh liom go dtugtar an phoiblíocht is cuí don fhórsa seo ar an dtelefís agus ar an raidio. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil dóthain eolais ag muintir na tíre i dtaobh cad tá á dhéanamh ag agus an sort seirbhíse a thugann an Fórsa Cosanta Sibhialta. Tá a fhios agam chomh maith go bhfuil leanúint ar aghaidh le h-atógáiltithe—do dhein an tAire tagairt dó—do na saighdiúirí. Ach nuair adeir sé go bhfuil téamh lárnach á chur ar fáil i cuid de na h-aonaid, na "billets", ba mhaith liom a fháil amach an bhfuil sé i gceist téamh lárnach a chur ar fáil sna beairicí i mBaile Átha Cliath faoi láthair. Más é sin atá i gceist, bheadh amhras orm.
Le roint blianta anuas bhí mé i bhfábhar ní amháin sean-bheairic amháin i mBaile Átha Cliath a dhúnadh ach an chuid is mó acu. Ar an gcéad dul síos, faoi mar atá ráite anseo, is aonaid an-mhór sa chathair iad agus tá siad an-luachmhar. Ní cóir a leithéid a bheith i gcathair ar bith gan trácht ar an bpríomh-chathair. Do tógadh iad níos mó ná céad bliain ó shin. Níl siad oiriúnach des na saighdúirí. Nuair a smaoinimíd ar an méadú atá tagtha ar an Arm, ar na daoine óga atá tar éis teacht isteach san arm le cúpla bliain anuas, agus ar an easpa áiseanna caitheamh aimsire atá acu—thagair an tAire don phointe seo nuair a dúirt sé go bhfuil sé ag iarraidh páirceanna peile a chur ar fáil taobh amuigh de na beairicí—sé an rud a ritheann liom ná an túisce a tógtar lárionaid taobh amuigh den chathair inar féidir rudaí ar nós linnta snámha, páirceanna peile agus mar sin de a chur ar fáil sea is fearr. Ní dóigh liom gur maith an rud é in aon chor fir óga a bheith in áiteanna ar nós cuid de na sean-bheairicí atá againn i mBaile Átha Cliath agus níl dóthain linnte snámha sa chathair don ghnáth duine. Dá bhrí sin, ceapaim go bhfuil deacracht ag an Aire sa chás seo.
Aontaím leis go mba chóir go mbeadh deis ag saighdiúirí a leithéid a bheith acu. Muna mbíonn laríonad den tsaghas atá beartaithe ar fáil go ceann trí nó cúig bhliain eile, b'fhéidir go smaoineodh an tAire ar linn snámha a chur ar fáil i gcuid des na beairicí atá ann faoi láthair. Tá a fhios agam go gcosnódh sé cuid mhaith airgid, £40,000 nó £60,000 ach tá linnte snámha neamhbhuain le fáil. Níor ghá ach an láthair a ullmhú. D'fhéadfadh an tArm féin an láthair a ullmhú agus d'fhéadfaí linn snámha a chur ar fáil i ngach beairic sa chathair ar rud éigin faoi £10,000 an ceann. Is trua nach féidir páirceanna peile a chur ar fáil nó beairicí a bheith againn a mbeadh páirceanna peile ag dul leo. Tá siad an-riachtanach do dhaoine óga.
Le déanaí, de réir mar a thuigim ó na nuachtáin, tugadh faoi bheirt shaighdiúir óga sa chathair seo ar sráid éigin agus goineadh go holc iad. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil rudaí den saghas seo ag tárlú do ghnáth daoine i mBaile Átha Cliath istoíche agus go bhfuil sé dáinséireach súil ar na sráideacha istoíche, ach tá súil agam nár thárla sé seo do na saighdrírí óga toise go rabhadar ag caitheamh éide an Airm. Ba chóir do gach saoránach labhairt amach i gcoinne a leithéid mar, fé mar a dúirt cuid de na Teachtaí cheana. tá na daoine óga a théann isteach san Arm ag túirt seirbhíse don náisiún seo. Is cosantóirí saoirse na ndaoine agus an daonlathais iad, agus ba chóir dúinn go léir labhairt amach in aghaidh aon duine den dream mi-chiallmhar— b'fhéidir fir óga atá ag tógaint druganna agus a leitheid—a bheadh ag túirt fútha ar aon ocáid.
Ba mhaith liom traoslú leis an Arm agus le hoifigí an Airm agus leis na Gardaí. Le blian nó le blian go leith anuas thug mé faoi ndeara an comhoibriú a bhíonn eatarthu. Chonaic mé anseo é cúpla mí ó shin nuair a bhí cosaint ag teastáil ón bParlaimint seo. Is an-mhaith an rud é go bhfuil an tArm, oifigigh an Airm agus na Gardaí i ndon teacht le chéile agus comhoibriú le chéile chomh maith sin.
Deineadh tagairt cúpla uair do na sean-laochra atá ar phinsean, seanlaochra na saoirse agus don bhac atá ann saor-theastáil a thúirt dá mná-cheile. Tuigtear dom go bhfuil roint sean-laochra in ospidéil agus nach féidir le na mná-cheile iad a fheiscint toisc nach bhfuil cead saor taistil acu. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil sé ráite ag an Aire go ndéanfaidh sé an cheist a iniúchadh. Is dóigh liom gur fiú é a dhéanamh agus mholfainn rud amháin eile don Aire i dtaobh na laochra seo —níl morán acu ann—mholfainn dó, nó b'fheidir tré an Roinn a bheádh freagrach, an Roinn Shoisialta, an dualgas a chur ar dhuine eigin féacaint cuige nach bhfuil aon duine desna sean-laochra seo in a chomhnaí ina aonar in áit nach fios do dhuine go bhfuilid ann agus go dtarlóidh go mbeidís breoite agus nach mbeadh aon duine ann chun féachaint ina ndiaidh. Ba chóir an dualgas seo a bheith orainn féin maidir le gach sean-duine ach tá mé ag smaoineamh ar an dualgas atá ar an Roínn Cosanta do na seanlaochra a bhí páirteach i gcogadh na saoirse.
Maidir le baintrí Military Service Pensioners ní thuigim go díreach cad tá i gceist ag an Aire. Deir sé go bhfuil 4,200 baintreach i gceist. An iad baintrí laochra na saoirse atá i gceist anseo nó baintrí gnáth-sheirbhísigh Airm? Ceapaim gur laochra na saoirse atá i gceist. Má bhíonn seirbhís 30 nó 35 bhlian ag fear faoi láthair agus má éiríonn sé as a seirbhís chun dul ar phinsean, tuigim faoi láthair ach nílim cinnte an bhfuil an ceart agam, má fhaghann seisean bás ní bhfaghann a bhaintreach aon phinsean. Mas fíor sin ba chóir don Aire féachaint isteach sa cheist. Tá prionsabail leagtha síos i dtaobh seirbhísigh poiblí go bhfeáchtar ina dhiaidh na baintrí. Mura bhfuil seo á dhéanamh ba chóir feachaint isteach sa scéal agus é a leigheas taobh istigh de bhlian nó dhó.
Níl le rá agam ach cúpla focail ar an Meastachán seo.
It was with great interest that I heard Deputies on the far side criticising our present Minister. Our Minister has been in office for 16 weeks and they were in power for 16 years. Yet they have all these complaints to lay in the lap of the Minister on the first day the Dáil properly assembles. What have they been doing all along—standing idly by?
We did an awful lot. You are the biggest grumbler on that side.
You are the first to offer from your side for a long time.
When Deputy Power is as long in this House as I am, if he will be, which I doubt——
There is no point in bringing up the fact that you are older than I am.
I came in as young as you.
And you slit the Defence Forces when you had the say. You took the boots off them.
Do not try the jackboot on me.
I must ask Deputies to desist from interrupting.
They are licking their wounds after their beating. They do not know they are in opposition yet.
Say something constructive now.
You listen. You want something constructive because you did nothing constructive for 16 years.
Let you carry on where we left off.
I must ask that the Deputy be allowed to speak without interruption.
We had parades and the taking of salutes in O'Connell Street and throughout Ireland and that was all the use they had for the Army.
What about pay and conditions in the Army?
I must ask Deputies to desist. Deputy Power and Deputy Cronin have already contributed to the debate, with the least interruption the Chair could ensure. I must now ask them to desist from interrupting and ask Deputy Coogan to avoid referring to personalities.
I do not think I referred to anyone, with respect to the Chair. I referred to the party as a whole. I have mentioned the matter of parades and there is no need for me to go back on it. People have seen it on television over the years and realised the waste of effort involved.
It is regrettable that the Army has to be used once again to put a certain discipline on the misled youth of this country. Many of them have been misled from that side of the House. They have been misled with regard to the foundations of this State and we had Ministers sacked not so long ago for misleading them again and they should be very careful about complaining.
There is nothing wrong with the youth of the country.
(Interruptions.)
I must ask that the Deputy be permitted to speak without interruption.
It is very hard to put up with this from a former Minister. They should have put him in the Army where he might have got a bit of discipline.
I have referred to parades. It is unfortunate that the public cannot see the Army on parade at the moment because the Army is occupied in the defence of the State. It was, generally, a peace-keeping Army and it has done a great deal to keep the peace in other countries. It is regrettable that the necessity arises for it to do so in this country.
Measaim nach bhfuil go leor san Dáil chun an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta a chloisint.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
I was referring to the peace-keeping operations of our Army in other countries. It is regrettable that now they have to be engaged on peace-keeping duties in our own country. I hope that sanity will soon prevail. I hope that things will not get worse. Things were bad in this country at the time of the birth of the nation. We had bank robbers and bank robberies.
The Deputy must deal with the Estimate.
I am referring to what the Army did in this country at a previous time, with respect to the Chair. It was the Army that stopped that over-night.
The Deputy knows quite well from his experience here that we are dealing with the position over the last 12 months.
Will you allow me to develop my point, Sir?
If the Deputy keeps to the last 12 months.
Illegal organisations are nothing new in this country, that the Army had to deal with. Overnight the men of those days dealt with these robbers. They were put against the wall. I am sorry to say, it happened. We had parades by the gentlemen on the opposite bench, putting wreaths on the graves of these men.
What about the parading three weeks ago in Fermoy when there were 5,000 people marching? The law and order Government with the strong hand.
We realise that the Deputy lost his State car.
Would the Deputy make his contribution and obey his Chair's ruling?
Does the Deputy want to make a contribution to make up for what he lost as a Minister?
What about the parading three weeks ago?
We will refer to that when the time comes.
The Deputy did not get a car.
I had a car before the Deputy had one.
These personalities across the House are not in order.
You have to allow that they are very sore after the beating they got. We have not a helicopter flying around, as the other Minister had. As it is in order to refer to helicopters on this Estimate, I should like to pay a very special tribute, and to join with that of the Minister, to the personnel at Baldonnel. In my capacity as Deputy for West Galway and the islands off West Galway I know the service given by the helicopter section on many occasions when the islands were stormbound and people were very ill and it was impossible for a doctor to land on the island and persons required hospitalisation. I should like to pay a tribute to the helicopter rescue service for the manner in which they came to the aid of these people. That happened on three occasions. They were treated as mercy missions. It would be worthwhile having a helicopter service for that purpose alone. I hope to see an extension of that service. The need for such a service is increasing.
The Minister referred to bomb disposal personnel. I hope there will be no need for such personnel. However, until common sense prevails it is better to have personnel ready and willing to step into the bearna baol.
The Minister referred to houses for Army personnel. On many occasions I have stressed the need for improvement in the housing at Renmore Military Barracks, Galway. Young men cannot be expected to settle down in the absence of housing facilities. The existing facilities in these barracks should be improved. I repeat that there is great need for the provision of housing if we want to encourage young men to join the Army.
I have referred to peace-keeping. I hope that in future we will not have to fire a shot in anger.
A previous speaker suggested the closing of barracks in the city. I would not support that suggestion. The cities are being denuded and will end up as ghost cities. The Deputy mentioned the possibility of putting the Army on the perimeter of a city. Today we find city churches are empty while new churches have to be built on the perimeter. Our cities are being denuded of people. Large office blocks are going up. One has only to look from the top storey of this House that we now grace to see the cranes all over the place. The bulldozer has already done its part. This is not for people but for offices which will only hold people for a few hours a day.
The Deputy also spoke about swimming pools, a swimming pool costing I think £10,000. Was he referring to a dipping pool for sheep? You could build nothing for £10,000 now. The Army is worthy of better than that. Much could be asked or said about An Slua Muirí but as this matter is sub judice I have no intention of raising it. I have faith in the Minister and if he has done certain things I accept that he has done them in the interest of the State. Time will prove that I am right.
Reference was made to sport in the Army. If one looks back over the years one can see how the Army took part in such sporting events as boxing and hurling. Possibly now that there are duties demanding all their time it is not easy to indulge in sport but this activity should not be lost sight of. The Army has given us some great boxers in the past and Army personnel played a very important role in keeping this country's name to the fore through the School of Equitation. Although I frown on certain mergers I am glad to note there is a merger between the Army School of Equitation and Bord na gCapall for the common good and, perhaps, with financial saving. I hope the results will be good and that when our riders go abroad again flags will be raised as happened in the past.
I do not know who is the custodian of our national anthem but it has been said generally that it is time to change it. I would certainly change the first line.
I do not think it is the responsibility of the Minister for Defence.
"Sinne Fianna Fáil ..." They flogged that for years.
What would rhyme with national coalition?
I suppose it should be "Sinne Fine Gael" now. Like many other things the wording of that anthem was flogged to advantage.
The Deputy should not deal with this when it is not in the Minister's Estimate.
It is nowhere in the Book of Estimates and I thought I would leave it to the Minister to see what he might do about it.
Reference was made to widows of Army personnel who have got nothing only ordinary widows' pensions. I know of cases of men who gave service when it was dangerous to serve in the Army as very young men, who married afterwards and now their widows have been forgotten. There are not many involved and we should do something for them.
There was mention of young men joining the Army. This is the best thing possible for them because there was never greater need for discipline. On our streets one can see young men and how badly they carry themselves. Training would do them a great deal of good.
In regard to Renmore Barracks, I think the Army are not responsible but I should like the Minister to inquire about a pathway leading from Eyre Square to the military barracks. This path is used by the Army to a great extent. It is disgraceful to expect anybody to use it at present but if the military do not use it they must walk another 2½ miles to get into town. The path runs beside the railway line and there is doubt as to who is responsible for its maintenance. In the past the Army cut off this passage from the public for one day each year due to some legal technicality. I am not sure if they do this now nor whether the onus is on CIE or on the Army to maintain this path but I should like to see it repaired. If it is the responsibility of CIE I fear we would be going to the goat's house looking for wool if we asked CIE to do something about it. That path should provide one of the comforts to which the military are entitled in that area and I should like the Minister to look into the matter and also to consider the other points I have mentioned.
Ba mhaith liom ar dtús comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as ucht é a cheapadh don Aireacht seo. Níl sé i láthair anois ach tá a fhios agam go n-abróidh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte é sin leis.
Bhíos ag léimh an Tuairisc Oifigiúil don bhliain 1972 agus ag túirt aire do na rudaí a dúirt an tAire Dlí agus Cirt atá anois againn mar gheall ar "morale". Dúirt sé:
Morale, I suppose in the Cavalry Corps, is kept up by the arrival of the new Panhard, but it is only part of their equipment.
Cad é uimhir na tuairisce sin?
Vóta 43, 27 Eanáir, 1972, an Tuairisc Oifigiúil, neamhceartaithe. Chualamar tagairt anocht do mhisneach san Arm. Nuair atá furmhór na ndaoine san Arm ag déanamh mion-jobanna is deacair uaireanta misneach a spreagadh agus a chothú, agus bollscaireacht a dhéanamh faoi. Tuigtear dom go bhfuil sé riachtanach do dhaoine áirithe san Arm obair tí a dhéanamh sa mbeairic. Sé sin beathaíocht a thúirt do laochra eile den Arm. Más rud é go bhfuil an misneach seo san Cavalry Corps, is mithid tagairt a dhéanamh don Air Cór freisin.
Ní h-ionann "misneach" agus "morale". Rud fé leith é "morale".
Má fhéacann tusa ar fhoclóir Béarla-Gaeilge de Bhaldraithe——
(Cur isteach.)
——chífidh tú an focal "misneach" agus glachaim leis an bhfocal sin. Is maith an rud é gur thuig tú ceard a bhí i gceist agat. Os rud é gurb é seo an chéad uair domhsa labhairt sa Teach seo—my first time to speak—níl a fhios agam cé acu atá pribhléid agam nó nach bhfuil ach measaim go bhfuil an cleachtadh sin ann.
Chualamar daoine eile anseo ag labhairt faoi rudaí a tharla lena blianta anuas. Tharla a lán rudaí. Is cuma liom faoi a lán dár tharla. Féachaim siar agus glacaim comhairle. Uaireanta deineadh tagairt, más maith an tagairt í, dona rudaí a tharla fadó.
Raghaidh mé ar aghaidh agus tuigfear cad tá i gceist agam nuair a úsáidim an focal "misneach" agus mé ag caint mar gheall ar mhisneach an Airm ó thaobh an Aer Cóir de. Chuala mé on Teachta Cronin faoin scáirdeitleán fheidhmitheach seo. Bhí an Rialtas deireanach díreach chun é a cheannach, agus tá sé agam ón Aire a bhí ann go mbeadh cúram an scáirdeitleáin seo ar an Aer Cór. Nár mhaith an rud é sin mar mhisneach don Aer Cór? Tuigtear dom anois nach bhfuil an Rialtas atá anois againn sásta glacadh leis an eitleán seo, go bhfuil deireadh curtha leis an bplean a bhíodh acu. Braitheann an gnáth-choras eitilte ar an aimsir go mór mhór agus má bhíonn aon athrú ar an aimsir bíonn tionchar aige ar an am-clár agus ar an eitleán. Ní bhraitheann na h-eitleáin mhíleata chomh mór sin ar an aimsir. Sin a deirtear liom ar aon nós.
B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh athrú aris agus go mbeidh an scárd-eitleán seo againn. Má thagann molaim cúram an eitleáin seo a thúirt do Aer Cór.
Tugaim moladh mór don FCA agus don Slua Muirí. Tá ard-mheas agam ar na daoine óga seo a chaiteann a gcuid saor ama iomlán beagnach ag déanamh oibre ar san muintir na tíre. Deinim comhgháirdeas leo.
On the question of morale, I was quoting what the Minister for Justice, Deputy Cooney, said. Morale is very important. When one considers the ordinary chores which have to be performed by Army personnel one appreciates how very difficult it is to keep morale at a high level. According to reports I have read, because of the necessity to keep the barracks running smoothly, there were times when officers could not get a group of men together for field exercises; the men were engaged in cleaning and provisioning the barracks. It was suggested that civilian orderlies might be recruited to perform certain tasks. Has the Minister, I wonder, anything in mind in regard to the recruitment of civilian orderlies? This was mooted in January, 1972. Perhaps the Minister will bear this point in mind.
I understand we have a coastline approximating to 2,000 miles in length. It is a great deal to protect with what we have available but, in the circumstances, those concerned have done an excellent job. It is interesting to think that when a trawler is apprehended within the three mile limit, it is brought to shore, interrogations take place, there are court proceedings, a fine is imposed and the fish and gear are confiscated. This is usually the pattern. Were it not that a certain episode is regarded as an "Intelligence" matter one could, I suppose, draw a parallel but the intelligence in this important Assembly is considerable and so there is no need for me to spell out what I have in mind. Fishing within the three mile limit——
Six miles.
Fishing within the six mile limit one is heavily fined and one loses one's equipment. I am sure that there are times when the livelihoods of those caught fishing within the six mile limit are jeopardised because modern fishing equipment is very costly. It is interesting to ponder the observations that could be made, but "Intelligence" stymies me.
In earlier debates on this Estimate a good deal of time was devoted to the discussion of uniforms. Not so much time was devoted to this subject today and that shows that there must have been some progress made by the last Government.
Reference was made to central heating in barracks. This is something to be recommended. I certainly approve of it if it is practicable in these old buildings. We have been told that a new barracks is being built. This is welcome. This major building programme is designed to provide proper accommodation and it will provide employment. That is satisfactory. It was commenced last year and it is being continued in the present financial year. I am glad the present Government. who have made a lot of rash decisions, are continuing on this one. He further states that there are to be improvements in Army canteens, that there are to be new furnishings in individual cubicles, such as wardrobes and bedside lockers as well, of course, as beds, bedding and modern mattresses. The old type fibre mattresses are no longer being bought. They are being phased out. All these things will help towards boosting the morale of Army personnel.
We also have jokes about the Naval Service but I suppose full compliments should be paid to them for their ability to make use of the resources this House can offer. The Minister referred to the matter which is sub judice and then he went on to refer to educational courses. This is a matter which will boost morale as people feel they can make progress. We will need to have a recruitment drive based on educational availability. This was one of the features of previous campaigns and I hope by the time the next recruitment drive takes place reference will be made to educational courses and opportunities which may arise.
In the field of sport it is good to see the contact between our military personnel and civilians. This should be encouraged. I wish to pay a compliment to our Army team who are all-Ireland volleyball champions. I read in the newspaper today about the equine virus which is affecting the horses at the Spring Show. I sincerely hope that the Minister can let me know that there is no danger to the animals of the Army equitation school.
While the Minister was absent I wished him well in his new appointment. At the end of his speech he said:
If there are any other points on which Deputies would like further details I hope to give the information when replying to the debate.
I hope, therefore, he will be able to reply to the points I raised. Go raibh maith agaibh.
I am sorry I interrupted Deputy Murphy. I had forgotten a convention by which Deputies making their maiden speeches are not interrupted. I had no wish to offend him.
Note is taken.
I would like to start off by congratulating our new Minister for Defence. The party behind him are fully aware of the degree of integrity and the intensity of work he applies to anything he turns his hand to. I wish him and his Department well over the coming years. I would also like to congratulate the Deputies who made their maiden speeches today. We had Deputy Bermingham and some others from these benches and we also had Deputy Brugha and Deputy Murphy from the Opposition Party. They were very fine contributions. Some of them were in Irish. I would like to say that I have had quite an interest in the armed forces because some of the largest military institutions are in my constituency. We have Collins Barracks, McKee Barracks, the headquarters of the armed forces, the equitation school and other institutions in my constituency so I represent a large section of the armed forces.
I may have made myself a little unpopular with the officials of the Department of Defence during the past few years but I appreciate the way in which the Department of Defence have improved. I also wish to extend congratulations to the former Minister for Defence because before he became Minister we had a period of stagnation in the Army. However, if you do not have money, or if there is a republican self-declared Government, like Fianna Fáil, who can come along and say that they are the only republicans in this country, you can only expect stagnation.
The Army was allowed to run down over a considerable period. When it was required we had only a small force available. However, the general position of our armed forces is approved by most people. Until such time as more modern quarters and a central military barracks is built by the Government with the financial resources which we have we cannot expect a high degree of efficiency from our armed forces. From simple logistics we know that at least six men are required inside for each man you can put in the field. This goes higher depending on the complication of the machinery you use. In the case of helicopters or aeroplanes it may be as high as 20 or 30. The more complicated things get the more men are needed to back up your movement. An example of this would be South Vietnam where the logistic rating of United States forces was ten to one. There were ten men behind the scenes for each man in the front lines.
One of the biggest problems facing efficiency in the Army is that the will is there, the mind is willing and the men are fit and no one will ever doubt that they are the best men we have to offer in this country. We should at least give them adequate facilities. We will probably become much more involved in Europe and without any deliberate mistake on the part of anyone representing us there we may be committed to the defence of Europe. Our record is excellent since the early part of the last decade in our international peace-keeping operations. Not every troop can go overseas. Our biggest problem now is that of the internal security of our territory from any incursion by a foreign force.
It is no harm for me to remind the Minister that a year-and-a-half ago a Canberra jet bomber flew from Belfast over the border at Dundalk and flew right down as far as Ballymun, back over to Navan, and back up to Dundalk in decreasing circles photographing the area. That was 12 months ago—between 29th October and November. The radio-link at Mount Oriel, which is our main radio communication link between Dundalk and the north-western section of the border patrol, was photographed. We had nothing to cope with the position. Of our six Vampire jets, only one could take off the ground with 24-hours' notice. That shows that we had no craft which could fly up and take the readings of the aircraft which flew right down to Ballymun.
Is the Deputy suggesting that the jet should have been shot down?
No. The readings should have been taken to identify the plane.
The Deputy appears to have identified it.
I identified it eventually after asking about 12 questions in the House and through the good offices of the ex-Taoiseach who was very reluctant to disclose the fact that it was a British bomber and not a commercial plane. Our commercial lines to Glasgow and Edinburgh had to be diverted and the route was closed because of the unknown aircraft flying into our air-space. One of the Aer Lingus planes in the area came in very close, aeronautically speaking, to the intruder. Five of our Vampires had to be gutted to supply spare parts for the Sixth Vampire to enable it to get off the ground within 24 hours.
What should the six Vampires have done?
They could have read the identification marks on the plane.
You were so friendly with the bomber command——
Deputy Byrne should deal with the Estimate before the House.
One must wonder how the ex-Minister for Justice got the photographs of our different training camps along the Border. I suppose he had contacts.
To deal now with the Army—we must encourage recruits at all times. They must have the best facilities to promote their careers. Opportunities must be available to them when they leave. Sometimes the medical requirements are inclined to be a little strict. I have suggested before that these requirements should be examined and perhaps lessened a little. They seem to be copied from the British Army medical requirements and are archaic, particularly in regard to teeth.
The helicopter wing of the Air Corps has been expanded and has shown it is able to cope with different types of civilian strain, from road traffic accidents and acutely-ill patients to air-sea rescue operations.
We cannot hear the Deputy on this side of the House.
No, we cannot hear.
We cannot hear a word the Deputy is saying.
The helicopter wing of the Air Corps deserves congratulations from this House. The Minister is to be congratulated for the expansion of this section of the Air Corps.
Which Minister?
The present Minister, of course. I should like to see the Naval Service expanded also in a way in which it could be more closely coordinated with the fishing fleets of our country. A course in fishery methods could possibly be included in the naval training course enabling trainees to obtain a master's ticket.
I must acknowledge the quick and efficient action of Deputy Haughey, when Minister for Finance, in bringing the Asgard yacht back from the south of England, and thereby providing a yacht which was used by An Slua Muirí in training personnel in the Naval Service. It is a vessel which has served us well. In the last Olympics it competed most successfully. In September, 1972, it won the international race from Plymouth to Falmouth. Its acquisition shows excellent foresight on the part of the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey. It might be no harm to get another one—or even two—such training vessels. We are an island country. There is a great love of the sea among our people. Did Deputy Haughey hear me this time?
I heard that. I agree with every word the Deputy says.
Sport is very important in the Army. For too long the Army has been the Cinderella of our sporting organisations. It could be the backbone of Irish sport. The last top-class sportsman coming from the army was Noel Carroll, who represented us in middle-distance athletic events. He is still with us; his wife plays the harp very well.
What about Lieutenant Shanahan?
I am sure the lieutenant will achieve international honours in the near future.
He would have.
That was not a full international. With regard to the housing situation in the Army, this is a matter that should be investigated. In the case of flats or houses used by Army personnel, perhaps the rents could be reduced. It is a considerable burden for a private or corporal to pay up to £7.15p weekly for a one-bedroomed flat at Kilbarrack.
The sale of the military barracks should be expedited. There should be co-operation between the Army, the schools and the local authorities for the provision of sporting facilities. The National Council of Sport recommended that any athletic or sporting facilities which were available in the Army should be made available also to schools and colleges provided there is no infringement of security regulations.
I know of one case concerning a school which had five acres of Army land but there was only one acre used for sports and this had to cater for 475 children. Perhaps the Army could co-operate with the Department of Education and help in the provision of more sport facilities for the youth in that area.
I heard that the United States Government some time ago offered us an interest free loan to purchase ships and weapons from the United States. The only snag is that they would service them and supply the spare parts. Now that the United States has withdrawn from South Vietnam there is a huge volume of surplus military equipment in the US. Recently I saw a television programme on which it was stated that it cost £8 million to build a B52 bomber but that when it was sold after some parts had been removed the price fetched was £4,000. Of course, its only use was for scrap and aluminium.
Deputy Dowling mentioned the AK47 Russian rifle. This is the best and most popular combat rifle in the world and the Americans used it in preference to their own. It is worked with a gas mechanism, it fires a .75 calibre bullet and it is extremely accurate. It can fire at the rate of 600 rounds per minute but it has only a 13 bullet magazine.
There is no reason why we should not have top class men to represent us in sporting events. Apart from our professional ambassadors, sportsmen are our best representatives. If the facilities were available in the Army this would make their task easier.
Every organisation needs men and money. The new Minister for Defence deserves our congratulations and support for the manner in which he is carrying out his duties and for the tremendous improvement in morale in the Defence Forces. The officials of his Department have done very good work and they deserve our thanks.
I should like to refer to the medical services available to the families of Army personnel. Frequently an Army man's wife and family do not qualify for general practitioner services and they incur considerable cost in doctors' fees and prescription expenses. I was told by two former Ministers that they would look into this matter but nothing was done. I hope the Minister will look into this matter. There is another point with regard to drivers in the Army; an NCO can drive an Army tank but he is not qualified to drive a civilian vehicle. This matter should be considered.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.