Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 May 1973

Vol. 265 No. 7

Local Government (Rates) Bill, 1973: Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." This is a short technical Bill. The background to it is that in their 14-point plan announced before the recent General Election the Government stated their intention to reduce local rates by transferring on a phased basis from local to central taxation the burden of health charges on local authorities and the cost to them of local authority housing subsidies.

On 30th March, the Government announced that in the present financial year, 1973-74, the rate to be levied by each local authority for health services and local authority housing subsidies could be reduced by 25 per cent as compared with the rates levied for these purposes in 1972-73, this being the first phase in the total transfer of costs to the Exchequer over a four-year period. At that stage, however, 11 county councils and three urban district councils had already adopted estimates of expenditure and determined rates in the pound for 1973-74.

Under existing law, there is no way in which a local authority can reduce a rate which has been determined in accordance with the statutory procedure laid down. In order that the ratepayers in those areas where rates had already been determined might be enabled to benefit from the reductions announced by the Government it was necessary that a legislative provision be made enabling the relevant local authorities to levy an amended rate. The Bill which I have introduced is, as I have already said, a technical measure designed solely to validate any modified rates in the pound adopted by the small number of relevant local authorities subsubsequent to the announcement of the Government's decision. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Moore

I just want to ask a question. Although naturally I welcome the Bill, would the Minister inform us if there is any possible way of restricting the health charge remission to residential houses only? As the Bill stands, huge industrial concerns will benefit as well as the ordinary ratepayer and I do not think this would be desirable. I hope the Minister can devise some means by which large industrial concerns will be excluded from this benefit.

Mr. Tully

Is the Deputy asking a question or making a speech? If he is about to make a speech I should prefer to allow him to finish it rather than to be intervening periodically to answer questions.

Mr. G. Collins

It might be as well if the Minister answered this question. We are all anxious that this Bill should get a speedy passage.

Mr. Tully

The position is that at the present time it would not be possible technically to do what Deputy Moore has suggested, nor do I think it would be desirable because in such a situation some of the hardest hit would be small business people whose businesses could not be classified as residential. Those small businesses are already badly hit.

Mr. Moore

Take the large industrial concerns. They will now benefit from the remission of the health charges.

Mr. Tully

It could not be done. The rate is a common one which applies to an entire building and it would not be possible at this stage to do what the Deputy suggests.

Mr. Moore

The health charge is a special charge on the rates chart and surely it would be possible to exclude it from the chart of a residential ratepayer and not exclude it from that of big industrial concerns.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be better if the Deputy would make a formal Second Reading speech and then to allow the Minister to reply to the points made.

Mr. Tully

Quite frankly, the situation, as everybody in the House knows, is that the rate is levied on the entire building. It is a common rate. What Deputy Moore is suggesting is that, where premises are being used for business, this element of the rate, not only for health but for housing subsidies, should not be excluded. This would be an impossible task at the present time. As I said earlier, neither would it be desirable to do it in a general way because, as we all know, there are many businesses whose premises are part-residential and on which a common rate is levied. To do what Deputy Moore suggests would mean that all small businesses—small shops and guesthouses, for instance— would lose the benefit of this remission.

Mr. Moore

A guesthouse is not an industry. Take an industrial estate——

Mr. Tully

In some cases it might be desirable to adopt the Deputy's suggestion but what is desirable and possible are two entirely different matters at this stage. I can refer it to the Department of Finance and the Government and if they so desire it might be possible to devise ways in which this matter can be dealt with. However, I can assure Deputy Moore that, even if we desired to do it this year, it would not be possible to do it this year.

Mr. Briscoe

Perhaps the Minister would consider the Fianna Fáil policy in relation to rates on private dwellings being abolished over the years.

Mr. Kelly

We could get a suggestion from Deputy Gerry Collins in regard to that.

Mr. Tully

What Deputy Briscoe has suggested is that we should have adopted the Fianna Fáil policy. I would remind him that the Fianna Fáil policy did not save the former Government.

Mr. Kelly

It did something for Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy must also know that, when the small print of that policy is looked into, it will be discovered that the people I have been referring to—small business people whose business premises are part-residential—would have to continue paying the full rates. The election is over now and there is no harm in making that point public.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister must know I disagree with him.

Question put and agreed to.