Deputy Taylor reported progress. Has Deputy Andrews a point of order?
Committee On Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £17,067,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; for expenditure arising from damage to the property of External Governments; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Local Government.)
I just want to point out that Deputy Fitzgerald will speak, with your permission, assuming that Deputy Taylor is not here.
He is on a deputation at the moment.
At the outset it is my pleasure to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment and to say that in my opinion, his is a very popular appointment. Criticism has been expressed about the small number of appointments which went to the West of Ireland. We all agree that the one man from there who has been given a portfolio can be depended on to adopt a very humane approach to the Office of Public Works. While on the complimentary line I should like to congratulate him on the appearance and decoration—and the obvious amount of work that went into their preparation —of the State apartments in Dublin Castle for the inauguration ceremony on Monday night. The Parliamentary Secretary and his staff deserve to be complimented and congratulated on that. I would ask him to convey those congratulations to his staff. I was sorry that there were quite a number of Deputies from the Government benches who were not present that night, if for no other reason than to admire the apartments.
The Chair feels the Deputy ought not to advert to any matters appearing to the Presidency or the inauguration of our President.
I was merely referring to the apartments in Dublin Castle on Monday night.
The Deputy will please get off the subject.
Surely I am entitled to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on a job well done there.
The Deputy was adverting to the number of Deputies who attended the inauguration ceremony. I am asking him to desist from any further mention of that matter.
That was a passing reference. The appearance of the State apartments were a tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff. The Office of Public Works is a very important section. The importance it merits is not always attached to it. It covers a vast field. It covers the provision of adequate and proper schools for our young people. It covers accommodation for our security forces and accommodation for our Civil Service. It covers the preservation of national parks and monuments, and so on. It also covers arterial drainage, of course, and the reclamation of many acres of arable land for the agricultural community. All these functions come within the compass of the Parliamentary Secretary and each is an important function.
I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will encourage greater decentralisation. The Office of Public Works lends itself to better control of decentralisation than any other Department. I was glad to see the increase of £3.8 million in this year's Estimate and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will continue to press his Minister and to cajole and coax his Minister—as he is well able I have no doubt—to give extra finance. I have one criticism of the start of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech. Under the heading subhead D I was disappointed to read:
The provision under subhead D is mainly to cover purchases of sites and premises for Garda Stations and other Government services in Dublin and the provinces . . .
I want to know why "in Dublin and the provinces" should be specifically stated? Is there some insinuation that the provinces are of less importance than Dublin? Is it not all the same country? Would it not be adequate to say ". . . for Garda stations and other Government services and for the purchase of the fee simple of some existing leasehold properties"? I do not think that, in an Estimate such as this, we should refer to "Dublin and the provinces". Even if it were "the provinces and Dublin" I would prefer it.
Do the provinces include Cork?
Yes. It is only a small point but I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary would agree with me on it. The Office of Public Works should lend itself more and more to decentralisation. We have some excellent provincial offices of the Office of Public Works and excellent officials in them. My experience is of the Cork offices. My criticism is that they are not getting enough power. They are not the integral units they should be to give them more freedom and flexibility to get jobs done more quickly. Otherwise they are an excellent group with hard-working staff. Often their ability to go ahead with a job is curtailed by too many restrictions from the central office.
I suggest that they should be integral units to a certain level of expenditure and it should be a worthwhile figure. With regard to the repair, extension and renovation of schools and Garda barracks, the provision of toilet facilities, and so on, up to £20.000 or £25,000 should be handled by the provincial offices. This would speed up many jobs which are carried out from time to time. It would also give the officials concerned a greater sense of responsibility, and the little bit of extra authority which gives us all an incentive to get jobs done. The officials of the Office of Public Works must be looked on as activists, as people anxious to get work done quickly. This image is very important. If more responsibility were given to local officials it would improve the situation for them. It is not encouraging for an official who has given long years of service and who has greater knowledge of local affairs than his superior in Dublin, to have a curb put on his expenditure and the decision taken from him as to the appointment of contractors. This situation inhibits the local official. I would encourage decentralisation of the Office of Public Works.
The Parliamentary Secretary has told us that plans are at present in hand for the erection of offices at seven centres. This is a good thing as long as certain responsibilities and certain functions are delegated to those offices and if they are integral units, and if the officials will not have to get sanction from Dublin for every scheme. We should not reach the stage where the cost of controlling the expenditure exceeds the required expenditure.
The question of the erection of a glass partition in the Public Gallery has been referred to by several Deputies. I am one of those who would disapprove of the erection of such a glass partition. The Dáil should be brought nearer to the people rather than made more remote. Such a partition would give visitors the impression of being cut away from the proceedings in the House. Visitors derive great pleasure from seeing the Dáil and witnessing the proceedings of the House. They are interested in seeing where the Ceann Comhairle sits and where the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Opposition and other Deputies sit. They like to hear what is being said in the House.
There has been a suggestion that proceedings of the Dáil should be televised. With that in mind it would not be right to erect a barrier, glass or otherwise, between the House and the Public Gallery. I am not sure that such a partition would provide greater security or protection. It would have the effect of creating a distinction that Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider this matter.
I am not quite sure as to what functions the Parliamentary Secretary has with regard to military barracks and their upkeep. I am not sure if I am going outside the scope of the Estimate.
The Deputy is quite in order.
Thank you. I am glad to learn from the Parliamentary Secretary that the commissioners are exploring the possibility of allowing Kilkenny Castle dining room to be used for small theatrical presentations. The Office of Public Works have a social function. I want to make a suggestion with regard to Ballinacurra Barracks in Cork. There is a growing community in the area. There is a very active local development association. They have in mind the provision of a community centre. There is a fine hall in that barracks which it might be possible to let to the development association occasionally or for certain functions. I agree that this would have to be in consultation with the Minister for Defence and certain security precautions would have to be taken. The hall was used for a number of functions some years ago, for dances and so on. It would be a wonderful advantage to the local community if that hall could be made available to them even if only at certain times. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to examine this possibility and perhaps suggestions could be made as to making the hall available. The community concerned urgently needs a social centre.
Mr. Kenny
That is a matter entirely for Defence.
Thank you. I shall raise the matter again.
There is one matter on which I should like to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary's office. We are often critical of civil servants. We should praise them when praise is due. A central heating installation for Kilmurry national school was being handled from Dublin. A promise was given to the manager that plans would be available so that he could advertise for tenders in the first week of June. In fact, the manager had them in his possession on the last day of May. This is something in regard to which the officials concerned deserve to be complimented. We often enough hear of decisions being delayed. This is a case in which the decision was made before the promised date.
There are a number of problems with regard to the Carrigaline schools. The Carrigaline No. 3 Church of Ireland school is seriously overcrowded. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary has the matter in hands but I would ask him to expedite the provision of the extension to that school so that the extra accommodation will be available for the pupils before the new term starts in September. The same applies to the pre-fab classrooms in the other Carrigaline schools. They are urgently required and there will be a serious situation if they are not available for September.
Deputies have an opportunity on this Estimate to raise local problems. I also have my river to drain. I do not want the Parliamentary Secretary to have it drained tomorrow or even to make an announcement tomorrow that it will be drained. My supplementary questions yesterday to the Minister for Industry and Commerce encouraged him to leave the House and to have a Press conference immediately announcing the freezing of prices. I do not want to take any of the bouquets from the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I do not expect the Parliamentary Secretary to have a Press conference tomorrow for the purpose of announcing that the Owenabue is to be drained but I would ask him to revise the priority rating of this river. Cork County Council recently considered the question of supplementing the water supplies of the lower harbour area of Cork. As matters stand it would not be fair to the local people even to consider using any of the water there without having drainage carried out on the Owenabue. The drainage project has been on the stocks for some time. The river flows through Ballinhassig - Ballygarvan - Carrigaline - Crosshaven area. This is an area in which industry is developing. Therefore, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to discuss with Local Government and with the county council the possibility of having a joint scheme and the feasibility of using the Owenabue for the purposes of supplementing the water supply for the industrial development of that area.
I would ask the Office of Public Works to bring old schools up to a certain standard, ensuring that in all schools the essential services, such as water and sewerage, are laid on and that our children have decent schoolhouses in which they can enjoy the minimum comforts which were denied to many of us in earlier generations. I sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary because I realise that many of our schoolhouses now require a great deal of maintenance and renovation.
The same argument applies to our Garda barracks. Numbers of these do not have running water and sewerage facilities and an effort should be made to modernise these buildings. It is not fair that our gardaí should be asked to live or work in unsuitable accommodation.
The speeding up of the building of schools for the mentally handicapped is to be commended. This must bring solace to the voluntary bodies and others who have devoted so much of their time to the care of these children.
The sponsoring of a competition for architects in relation to the post office in Tipperary town is to be commended. I trust that more competitions like this will be held in the future because these are an encouragement to the engineering and architectural professions, both of which are bound to become more important in our developing society as time goes on.
With regard to the preservation of ancient monuments, steps are being taken in the right direction here. Charles Fort, Kinsale, is not in my constituency, but I know it well. I commend the work being done here. It is a place recognised for family outings on a Sunday afternoon. It will also be an attraction from a tourist point of view. I would encourage every development of this kind. The provision of special picnic areas is essential. The improvement made to Kanturk Castle in my constituency is commendable and I am glad to see Kilbolane listed for improvement in the current year.
The presentation of the Estimate is to be commended. I would press for faster development, but I know the availability of money sometimes prohibits this. I should like to see greater involvement of the Office of Public Works in local community effort. There may be snags of which I am not aware but, in the little village of Kilmurray, local initiative and local effort have provided a worthwhile museum. I know some assistance was given, but I am thinking now along the lines of some kind of grant towards upkeep and caretaking. There must be other similar ventures elsewhere in the country, ventures which should be encouraged. These ventures were successfully kept going when people had more time. Today, people do not seem to have so much time. I suppose that is progress, but the Government have a duty to ensure that our ancient past is preserved. It is our cultural background and every effort should be made to preserve, that culture. It is from that point of view I would like to see the Office of Public Works becoming more involved in this type of exercise. As I say, maintenance grants should be provided. There could be certain qualifications attached to these grants.
I am glad to see that the Office of Public Works is assisting in the transfer of Government Departments to Castlebar and Athlone. Decentralisation is most important. It is something all of us from the provinces would encourage. Even with an increased allocation the Estimate for the Office of Public Works is still not adequate and with an even bigger allocation next year, it will still not be adequate.
This is an Estimate which permeates every Department of State as one can see easily from the Parliamentary Secretary's review of its activities. I take it his opening statement was really only an outline since he offered to give us any further information we might require in relation to the activities of the Office of Public Works and Buildings and I shall be asking him for some information later.
First of all, I should like to compliment the Office of Public Works on its attitude in relation to certain matters. The first matter is that of Garda stations and the Garda Technical Bureau. In the times in which we live the Garda Síochána have become an increasingly important force. They deserve the best possible accommodation not only in order to attract people into the force but to provide them with reasonable facilities to carry out their duties. They have to work long and difficult hours. In the past the Garda station has been regarded by some people as an unwelcome sight, by others as an uncomfortable building. Others have looked at it and wondered that men should be asked to work in such places.
I am sure the public will be very relieved to hear of the provision of money for the specific purpose of providing Government buildings. There has been very deep concern in the minds of the public in relation to modern offices rented by Government Departments due to the fact that the Government had not provided buildings of their own volition for the housing of Government Departments. There was a general feeling that these buildings had been put up because there was a tip-off to a developer that a Government Department required extra accommodation. This gave rise to the imputation of speculation and graft. This step to provide buildings specifically for Government Departments is long overdue. I am certain that that provision in this Estimate will receive general approval even though it means providing extra money. Any development project in the present day is costed in some detail before the land is even bought, possibly, by the speculator. When it comes to the granting of lease there are revision clauses in the lease which provide for, in the first instance, the full commercial rent, and in a short period of five or seven years a complete revision of that rent. If this system were to prevail it would mean that the public would be asked to contribute towards the rent of Government offices at the highest market rent possible. That is an uncomfortable situation for future Governments and the Departments to face. This new policy will go some way, I hope, towards reassuring the public on that account. I hope it is only a start. The amount allocated for this purpose is comparatively small having regard to the present-day cost of buildings. Only a certain amount of work can be done in any 12 months and this is the beginning in this case.
Shannon navigation has been referred to. I lived beside the Shannon for many years. It has always been a matter of wonder to me that Governments did not take more interest in such a very real asset, an asset with great potential for development from a tourist point of view. There are many people who like to go on the water but who are terrified of the sea. Most people will go on to fresh water, which is calmer and where matters are more manageable from a landlubber's point of view. In addition to this, the Shannon has its own beauty, particularly Lough Derg in its lower regions. There are facilities there for yachting, boating and fishing. I am glad that these things are within the purview of this Department.
I come now to a more serious problem: the provision of special schools for physically and mentally handicapped children. The Parliamentary Secretary said:
The provision of special schools for physically and mentally handicapped children is continuing. Works were completed last year on two new schools and on a major improvement scheme at an existing school. Works are at present in progress at nine other such schools and 18 projects are at various stages of preparation.
Many people do not realise the pressure on this unfortunate section of society. It is a very real pressure. Despite the fact that there are three schools in my constituency there is still a need for further schools and for enlargement of existing schools. The waiting list for accommodation is appalling. The good people who are involved in this work are doing their very best. Indeed, most people involved are working well beyond what would normally be expected of even hard-working human beings in trying to meet their needs. All these cases are tragic. If sufficient proper schools could be provided many children, and even young adults, could be saved. They might not become 100 per cent normal but they could play a fuller role in society. I have frequently been shown this by expert psychologists and psychiatrists. Their reports are not the cold, hard things one would expect to see. Most of these people, when they are writing, are pleading from their hearts to various institutions to allow children in. It is very disturbing to be involved in these cases. I have only been in public life a little over three months but I have seen a lot of it. I did not realise the problem was so bad until I became a public representative. In the light of what I have seen in that short time and from speaking to others who have gone before me, if there was only that in this Estimate I would welcome it with all my heart.
It is good to see money being provided for meteorological stations. It is very important in terms of modern agriculture and fisheries that we have an updated meteorological service. We are only part of a worldwide network but it behoves us to do our duty and play our part. That is provided for in the rather small sum which I am sure is sufficient for the moment to enable us to keep pace with our duties and responsibilities in that regard.
I do not know whether I shall be relevant in referring to the matter of harbours. I notice the phrase "State harbours" used in the Estimate and possibly the Parliamentary Secretary could tell me whether Courtown harbour would come within the purview of his Department. This is not a harbour which one would describe as a commercial harbour, although there is herring fishing there during certain months of the year, but there is a need, a small need but an urgent need, to repair the pier running out from that harbour because it is a sea break or a sea wall in certain respects. It is something which would not require a great lot of money but which might require the expertise the Parliamentary Secretary's office would have and which might not otherwise be available.
In the county of Wexford coast erosion is a particular problem. I do not think there is any county bordered by the sea which has the same sort of coastline as Wexford. I am referring particularly to the east coast of Wexford where erosion is visible for all to see and as anybody knows who studies the tides, the tide on the east coast runs up and down more or less parallel with the shore. While the water rises and falls and gives the impression of the tide coming and going, and it does to that extent, the actual flow of the tide is north-south and south-north. In a high tide with an east wind, the Wexford east coast is absolutely bare and without protection. There are no rocky headlands and no rocky substrata to protect the coast and when this occurs, land goes into the sea. In this regard I can instance Poulshone, Cahore and Blackwater. If anybody saw photographs taken of that area ten or 20 years ago, and I have seen some, he would not recognise the same coastline. Even south, down towards ROSSlare, there has been considerable trouble over the years and I am a little concerned, using the words advisedly. by the small amount of money allocated for works under the Coast Protection Act. I know that when the Act came in in 1963 there was probably very little thinking or gearing to meet the requirements of the Act and I am also aware that it requires a certain procedure. This procedure has been followed in so far as Poulshone is concerned and the matter is now in the Parliamentary Secretary's lap and will, I hope, get early attention because, as I have already mentioned at Question Time, there are two houses in imminent danger of going into the sea. If there is an east wind and a high tide, it can happen in a night. It is a soft sandy shore and this is the position up and down that east coast. It is the coast into which the Macamore drains and I would be concerned that if there were any serious breakdown in the coastline, it might affect the present rather bad drainage of the Macamore which is low-lying. I would not like to see any serious damage occurring but I want to put it on record here and to give full warning to the Department that serious damage can occur.
I appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff will do their best but I think I am right in saying that so far as maritime works are concerned, there is a great shortage of skilled staff. There are able and learned men in the board but the numbers are very thin on the ground. I believe that there are possibly only two men skilled or trained in maritime preservation work and one, I understand, is a man who has passed the age of retirement and who has come back to assist. While it is giving too short a time to the Parliamentary Secretary to do anything this year, I would ask him to put it as the No. 1 priority because when serious works of this nature have to be undertaken, the costings rise year by year. The damage may be greater and the work to be carried out may be exceedingly large. I know of one instance in which work was not done south of Rosslare. It started in 1935 but there were misunderstandings—I do not want to mention names—in relation to a breach in the sea wall which will now necessitate the carrying out of a very major work, whereas it would have cost a very small sum if it had been undertaken in 1935, 1936 or 1937. It was a case in which the buck was being passed from one Department to another.
I think the Parliamentary Secretary will have appreciated that during this debate many country Deputies were confused about who is responsible for what drainage in what areas. As I understand it, there is an Act of 1945 which deals with arterial drainage which would be the responsibility of the Board of Works and there is the land project scheme which from my experience of it up to the present is somewhat enlarging its activities, maybe by force of circumstances, because in my constituency land project drainage has been found to be impossible until the underlying drainage of small streams or rivers has been carried out. This has caused a big hold up. It is a very real problem in my constituency because of the area I call the Macamore which is heavy wet land and unless there is some proper main drainage scheme which will be maintained, and I am afraid it would have to be maintained at public expense, we cannot avail of the land project scheme in many areas. Indeed, I have received that reply to representations which I made on behalf of constituents. Possibly the Parliamentary Secretary would be able to give us a short outline of where the various responsibilities lie in the matter of drainage.
Drainage seems to me to be a continuing matter of frustration, not alone for Deputies, but also for officials who do not appear to completely understand whose is the responsibility. Among local representatives such as county councillors there is a considerable amount of confusion. I should like to have this position clarified. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would state at what stage his Department comes ill. It would be the best piece of education ever dished out in this House if he did so.
Another matter to which I should like to refer is the question of schools. There has been some delay in the payment of moneys to contractors who have erected schools. I should like to direct the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to that. I have seen a number of cases where there has been undue delay. Some better system should be worked out so that there could be a speedier payment to the contractors. I am aware that such matters are often subject to a certificate and that retention money is held from the contractors but I have a feeling that moneys could be paid out quicker thereby easing the lot of the contractors. I have spoken to a number of contractors in my constituency and they have informed me that they are reluctant to tender for work under the auspices of the Office of Public Works because of that fact.
Another matter to which I should like to direct the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary is the design of schools. To some extent the problem in this regard has been surmounted in recent times but these designs have given rise to a subsequent high cost of maintenance. In some cases this has arisen due to the use of an undue amount of timber on the outside of the buildings. The amount of money allocated to school managers for maintenance goes nowhere near the cost of this work. Perhaps, as a matter of policy, the Parliamentary Secretary would consider discussing this matter with his officials to see if it would be possible to introduce a design which would reduce the cost of maintenance on schools.
The appointment of Deputy Kenny as Parliamentary Secretary has given great pleasure to Deputies on this side of the House. I believe that his appointment was welcomed also on the Opposition side. I feel sure that even if the Deputies may disagree with the man in charge of this Department we will always be able to understand our new Parliamentary Secretary. Deputy Kenny is the type of man who will understand anybody, no matter what his political colour. In my time as a Deputy I have received the utmost courtesy, help and guidance from Deputy Kenny. In extending best wishes to the Parliamentary Secretary I should add that I feel certain he will make a great success of this Department.
I do not want at this stage of the debate to get into the nitty-gritty bits and pieces. I should like to take a wider look at the activities of this Department and make a number of suggestions in connection with the devolution of responsibilities. It is a number of years now since the Office of Public Works jettisoned the twins, minor relief and local improvement schemes. These schemes dealt with the repair, upkeep and construction of minor roads and streams.
It was a good decision that the Office of Public Works hand over the responsibility for the execution of these schemes to the local county councils. The changeover meant that local representatives were in a position to take decisions as to a fair allocation of the moneys as between the various electoral areas of each local authority. In that way those schemes, with the knowledge of the local officials, worked very satisfactorily. I feel sure that, with the amount of money made available by the Office of Public Works to the local authorities, very good value is obtained from this money in the repair, upkeep and construction of what are accommodation roads.
These roads, if they cater for a number of householders, can be taken over after such works by the county councils and tarred. I have gone into some detail about this for the purpose of suggesting that there are other devolutionary activities which the Office of Public Works could engage in very usefully. When I am finished I hope that I will not have deprived the Parliamentary Secretary of his position.
The principle of having the local authority, who are the roads authorities in the various counties, deal with all roads was good. This is one of the reasons why the minor relief and local improvements schemes were handed over to them. In the same way minor drainage schemes which were formerly the responsibility of the Office of Public Works are now carried out by local authorities. The Office of Public Works could go further. Admittedly, they could not give the larger arterial drainage works over to any local authority, or any group of authorities, but I feel that intermediate drainage schemes could be handed over to them.
As the Parliamentary Secretary is aware, the White Paper on the reorganisation of local government envisages that county councils will have more authority, more power and become involved in many more activities. Therefore, it would be possible to have decentralisalion to some extent in respect of many of the aspects of the Office of Public Works. There are many activities associated with that office that could be handed over to local authorities. Up to about six months ago, the Department of Local Government sanctioned plans and tenders for houses but they now tell county councils that if a housing scheme is not to exceed a certain number of houses, it is not necessary to send forward plans for it to the Department and that the local authority can go ahead with the scheme. The same could apply in respect of coast erosion work and other small schemes. In any case, the local authorities subscribe part of the money for the latter scheme. In many such cases the local authority could carry out such work as the laying of breakwaters, of large stones and the carrying out of infilling work. Although the provisions of the White Paper on the reorganisation of local government have not been accepted by the present Government, the Minister for Local Government has said that he intends introducing his own scheme—I presume he means the Government scheme—of the reorganisation of local authorities. Therefore, we are to have some reorganisation scheme and we will probably find that it will contain most of the provisions envisaged in the proposals put forward by the last Government.
In the case of the building of national schools, if a school is to have more than six classrooms, the responsibility for such activities as the appointment of an architect, having plans drawn up and making application for planning permission devolves on the manager of the school. Why can the situation not be the same in respect of all schools so that the work can be done by the local manager or committee of management as the case may be? This is what happens in relation to vocational schools. The local committee appoint their architect, contractor, et cetera.
I do not know in what way the situation I envisage could be arrived at. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could put proposals on these lines to the Government. The National Building Agency build houses for gardaí, for industrial workers and other workers of the various Departments in rural areas and in the smaller and medium-sized towns. I cannot see the logic of one agency building houses for gardaí while another is responsible for building Garda stations. Why not transfer the building of Garda stations to the NBA or to the local authority? This would mean that the Office of Public Works could devote more time to very many important matters such as the development of larger harbours, the preservation of national monuments and the various public buildings.
These, then, are the few points to which I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to give his attention. I am sure that he has received many more suggestions along these lines. The knowledge and experience of people such as local authorities and school committees could be utilised in the ways I have suggested. This would result in greater efficiency and in a saving as well as leaving more time and more staff in the Office of Public Works to deal with all the other important matters within their ambit.
At the outset, I should like to wish the Parliamentary Secretary every success in his office. He has been given responsibility for activities that concern the constituency of every Member of this House. The Parliamentary Secretary is a man who has the capacity and the temperament to handle his office particularly well and I wish him every luck and hope that his term in office will be highly successful. He will be responsible, too, for the expenditure of vast sums of money and the problems that he will have to face are of such magnitude that they are likely to be with us for some time.
This Estimate affords us the opportunity of dwelling, however briefly, on the problems of our own constituencies. I recall speaking on an Estimate for this office some eight years ago when I was a very new Deputy to this House. At that time I spoke of the urgency concerning the draining of a river on the banks of which I happen to live. Earlier today I heard another Deputy from my constituency speaking about the same problem and the thought occurred to me that, indeed, no progress has been made since I last mentioned the matter here. Many such problems that existed in other areas at that time may now be solved. The question of the drainage of the Owenabue river has not been solved yet. Farms continue to be flooded. There is threatened flooding of houses on the river's banks and in the adjoining village. I hope that this Government will make more progress in regard to the problem than has been made in the past.
My main purpose in intervening in this debate is to speak of school buildings, and, in particular, to speak about the provision of new schools and the extension of existing buildings in the area adjacent to Cork city. These satellite towns have grown up as a result of deliberate planning by Cork County Council; I am referring to towns such as Carrigaline, Ballincollig and Blarney. There is a tremendous need for new schools and the expansion of existing buildings in these areas.
In past years there has been a shortsighted policy in relation to these matters. Because money will never be as plentiful as we would wish there has been a tendency to meet only the needs of the moment. In the areas I have mentioned, frequently provision is made for an extension of one or two classrooms or for the construction of a school comprising four rooms but before any of this work is completed the needs of the area have doubled. This has been particularly noticeable in the satellite towns I have mentioned. In future there should be much more foresight in the planning of public buildings. In Carrigaline there are classes with 50 pupils or more-something of which the Department of Education and educationalists do not approve. In the past there was very bad planning, much space was wasted in the layout of school buildings and, as a result, we have had overcrowded classrooms.
I am confident the Parliamentary Secretary will ensure that more foresight is given to planning in the future. Where it is obvious that in a few years there will be a need for eight or ten extra classrooms in a school, I hope they will be provided even though there may not be an immediate need for all the extra accommodation.
The same situation applies with regard to Garda stations. There will be need for more space and for better facilities because there will be many more people involved. We should ensure that adequate arrangements and facilities are made available in the public buildings.
I should like to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the provision of £10,000 for Charles Fort: it is an area outside my constituency but I know it very well. There has been considerable agitation about this matter for many years and I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary has taken note of it. I am sure what has been done is only a start and that much more will be done in the future on restoration of the fine monument there. I know that in the recent past Cork County Council have been considering the restoration of national monuments in the county. Special reference was made by Deputies and by county councillors to the fact that many of the monuments are in an inaccessible position and many of them are not in good condition. This is not satisfactory for tourists or for people interested in ancient monuments. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will try to remedy this matter.
My main purpose in speaking in this debate was to ensure the provision of school buildings where they are needed urgently: I have mentioned Ballincollig and Carrigaline, which areas I represent. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that more foresight is given to the planning and provision of school buildings and other public buildings.
I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment. When he was in Opposition he always took a deep interest in the Office of Public Works and made constructive contributions to debates in this House.
In a contribution I made in this House a few years ago I drew attention to the need for identifying the portraits of the national leaders in the House but apparently nothing has been done about it. As the years pass the need is more urgent: unfortunately young people, because of lack of information or for some other reason are not able to identify the portraits that hang on the walls of this House. In the lobby here there are busts of the 1916 leaders and they are identified.
I feel strongly about this matter because a number of years ago I was asked to take round the House a number of teenage school children. In the ante-room of the Upper House I showed them the portraits of Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone but did not reveal the names. I asked one young girl to identify one of the portraits and I was amazed when she gave me the name of a continental dictator who was partly responsible for the second World War. I mention this to show that there is a need to provide nameplates or to identify the portraits in some way.
The proposal to add another partition in this Chamber is one I reject completely. No matter what circumstances develop in our country, if people in this House are singled out as a target for punitive action that is a risk public representatives must accept. It is a risk public representatives in all countries must accept. I do not think that the people who come here at the invitation of Deputies should be restricted in any way. I have full confidence in the security arrangements here, particularly in the last few years. I do not think it is easy for people who might have destructive aims to get into this House.
I was very glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Phoenix Park golf course is under way and I would ask him to give, if possible, a firm date for when it will be ready. I am one of those who strongly advocated conservation and preservation of the Phoenix Park. I would be totally opposed to any public building being sited in that magnificent area. One finds, on looking at the map, that there is rapid development around the city: rapid development to the west and tremendous development on the east and north east sides. It would be a grave mistake to introduce public or private buildings in that beautiful park.
I join with other speakers in asking that some effort be made to control horseriding schools operating in the park. I recognise the recreational outlet these schools provide but we must also have regard to the hazards to pedestrians and other users of the park. I had personal experience last winter of an incident when an inexperienced rider practically lost control of his mount and could have caused a serious accident. I am also conscious of the hazard caused by cattle grazing in the park. Some years ago a number of accidents were caused; one of them was fatal. A widow lost her life as she was going home one night and collided with one of these animals straying on the road. Public parks should be public in that they should exclude all animals that are left to graze. Now, in 1973, this practice should be phased out and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give that matter his attention.
The Parliamentary Secretary said in his speech:
As Deputies are aware, the provisions for Major Fishery Harbours, for works in the fishing interest and for Miscellaneous Marine Schemes were transferred to the Vote for Fisheries on 1 April, 1972, but the Commissioners will still be responsible for executing these works as is the case with works carried out for Roinn na Gaeltachta and financed from funds provided in (he Vote for that Department.
Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would deal with Howth harbour. There was a proposal that this harbour should be a major fishery centre and certain works were carried out some years ago. I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us what future developments are envisaged for Howth harbour which has developed to a remarkable extent.
I was recently out there for a weekend and I counted 50 fishing boats anchored in the harbour. Apart from pleasure craft anchored there, there seemed to be a good deal of congestion. I noticed that the surface of the west pier, both footpath and roadway, are in need of repair. I know that some repairs were carried out on the east pier following the destructive southeast gale? about three years ago. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would look into the matter.
The Kennedy memorial project. which has now been discussed for many years, was mentioned by other speakers. I suggest that some decision be reached soon whether it is to be a concert hall or some other form of commemoration worthy of that great man. Perhaps some alternative could be thought out which would have a more humanitarian significance. I have in mind the plight of very many old people who are living in this city in very difficult conditions and paying exorbitant rent in some cases, particularly widows, for minimal accommodation. Whoever has responsibility for making a decision on this project, it would be well if the announcement were made soon.
Like other Deputies from all sides of the House I should like to congratulate the new Parliamentary Secretary. I do not like to praise him too much at the moment because sitting in front of me is the previous Parliamentary Secretary who did his job as well as he possibly could. I certainly welcome Deputy Kenny's advent to the Board of Works as it will at least give it a country outlook. One sees from the Estimates that the big money is going to Dublin city and the remainder of the country seems to be forgotten. We now hope that with a countryman in this office he will look south, east and west and, perhaps, provide some of the money badly needed for schemes in my own constituency and in other rural constituencies.
And in the north also
I am not forgetting Donegal. I think the Board of Works made a mistake when they sold many small Garda stations around the coastline. In my own constituency at least 20 of them were closed in recent times by the previous Government and many of these have been sold. We have no coast-watching service and those Garda stations were extremely important and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see that those stations that have not been sold will again be staffed by gardaí and that new ones will be built to replace those that have been sold. This is very important at present. Every country has a coast-watching service but hundreds of miles of our coastline are not under supervision.
I heard Dublin Deputies speak today of the need to increase the Garda force in this city. I agree with them and I believe that one of the greatest mistakes of the previous Government was to reduce the Garda force. It took them many years to realise that the Garda force were the most important force in the country. Then they stampeded and tried to recruit members to the force when it was too late. They sold some of the barracks and many of the barracks which the Garda are using are not fit for use. Many gardaí refused to live in some of the barracks throughout the country. No effort was made to keep them up to a certain standard. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will sec that they are made fit for people to live in. This is one of the first things he should do. I am glad that Skibbereen Garda station is on his list for improvement and I hope the work will be done in the near future.
I was slightly amused to hear Deputy Esmonde talking about the rough sea off the Wexford coast. If he lived down in Castletownbere and looked out at 3,000 miles of the Atlantic he would have a different opinion. One of our greatest problems is to cope with coast erosion. The amount of money provided in the Estimate is not sufficient to do any worthwhile job on our coast. Cork County Council provided certain money to help with coast erosion schemes. The only money we got has been spent in Youghal. I know that the money and the work were badly needed there, and I see now that the work is very nearly completed.
There is a very long coastline from Youghal to Ardgroom. In my lifetime acres of land have been claimed by the sea. In countries such as Holland they are spending millions trying to reclaim land from the sea, while we are making no effort to keep what we have. I should like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to a village called Union Hall. Seven or eight years ago during a storm this village was nearly swept away. A deputation from the residents came to me during the past week and told me that when there is a high tide they can hear the water rushing under the houses.
At the time of the storm it was visited by engineers from the Office of Public Works and the county council. Many promises were made but nothing has been done since. Instead of putting a glass partition up in the Visitors Gallery here I suggest that the money should be used to try to save the village of Union Hall from being wiped out. The money would do some good there; it will do no good here. I was told that some of the front and back doors were washed 200 yards up the street and the people had to be rescued in boats brought up by the tide. I am sure Cork County Council will provide a certain amount of money to assist this centuries old village and to put it in the condition in which it was before it suffered this great damage from the sea.
We have been looking for a jetty at Courtmacsherry for a number of years. The county council were prepared to pay one-quarter of the cost. Although we have been making representations for years we have not been able to get a grant from the Office of Public Works or the Department of Finance to provide this jetty. Courtmacsherry, Timoleague, Clonakilty and Roscarbery are hard hit by emigration. A jetty in Courtmacsherry would give employment on vessels bringing in and taking out cargoes. The Parliamentary Secretary should divert some of the money from putting up a glass partition here to Courtmacsherry and to Union Hall.
The amount of money provided for coast erosion is not sufficient to cater for one county. I am sure that other counties are suffering too, especially the counties on the western seaboard where erosion has been a problem for many years. The full sum provided in the Estimate should be provided for coast erosion alone. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will consider what [ have said. I wish him every success. It is time we had a Parliamentary Secretary from the country. Deputy Lemass comes from the city and naturally he would spend whatever money was in his office on Dublin. We are expecting great things from the Parliamentary Secretary and I wish him every good luck in his new office.
In my estimation the Office of Public Works are very often in a rather invidious position in that they act merely as agents. They are criticised for their inaction as agents on behalf of many other Departments but very often we find that the criticism is not properly directed in that the omissions of the Office of Public Works can be traced to the omissions of the Department for whom they are allegedly acting. Neither the instructions, nor the sanction, nor the plans, nor the money have been produced. For that reason in talking about the Office of Public Works and raising matters which concern a Deputy in any constituency, it is quite likely that criticisms may be answered by the Parliamentary Secretary by saying that they really were not because of his doing or lack of doing, but rather because of the lack of instructions, and the wherewithal, and so forth, from the primary Department.
I should like to say a few words about the small harbours scheme which was initiated a considerable number of years ago as a result of a coastal survey carried out and propositions made as to the various smaller and lesser harbour jobs which required to be done and on foot of which a five-year programme was drawn up. By the agreement of the Government back in 1968, £1 million; was allocated for the ensuing five years. All I can say is—for most seaboard county representatives it is not necessary to say it—the five-year programme which should now be nearing completion could be regarded as only starting and it has been a rather poor start. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take a particular look at the part of the programme which comes under his jurisdiction and see if the Office of Public Works have been lacking in regard to the development of our sea fisheries or have been in any way responsible for the failure to improve harbours and provide additional anchorages which are so badly needed, particularly on the west coast if our fishing fleet is to develop significantly.
In County Donegal and in my constituency in particular, there are a number of projects that have been promised for a considerable time, promised in all good faith but which are not proceeding. There is very little sign of action in regard to them with the exception of one in respect of which I have already said in the House it would have been better if it had not been done. I refer to Glengad in Malin Head. That job is about to be completed and very valuable money has been spent on it without benefit to the long suffering fishermen in the area. This job was done in contradiction of what had been agreed. There was to have been a basin with lock gates to provide shelter in extreme storm to safeguard the boats of the fishermen of Glengad and the Malin Head peninsula in general. Instead of getting shelter and anchorage and a basin, which was the solution arrived at after years of deliberation and seeking other solutions, that project was abandoned almost over night and, instead, an amount equal to what would have carried out the original project was spent in raising and extending further into the sea a slipway or small pier that existed there. This work affords no additional protection and will never make for additional safety or reduce the grave danger to boats. It is a total waste of public money. By the nature of the construction on the site on which it is located it will be an inhibiting factor and will be the cause of additional cost if we were, even at this stage, to revert to the original idea, namely, the creation of a basin for safe anchorage in storm.
I should like to bring to the Parliamentary Secretary's notice in this regard that irrespective of what may have been said or written in regard to the situation in the Glengad, Portaline, Malin Head area, there never has been a fishing craft lost at sea but there have been many craft smashed at anchor, to the extent that one wonders how the fishermen continue to fish there. Their optimism and belief in the future of fishing must be intense and immense to allow them to continue to battle against the odds that they have experienced down the years. Now they find money that could have given them an anchorage in storm and allowed them to secure the boats at anchor, has been spent in raising the level of the decking of the old pier and extending it further to sea. without creating any great or additional shelter or safeguard.
I regret this very much because for the £70,000 odd that has been spent, the other job could have been done. It is all very well to say that they would probably open the gates in time of storm to allow in the late comer and thus wreck all in sight. We are dealing with fishermen born and bred along the seacoast who know the hazards and who have the record of never having lost a boat at sea. That record is understandable because no matter in which direction a sudden gale may come they can head for the open mouth of Lough Swilly or go in the opposite direction to Lough Foyle. This is why there has been this long record of no losses at sea while wreckage has been continuously thrown up on the beach at Glengad as a result of storms and boats at anchorage being smashed in smithereens and nothing could be done about it. Money has been spent and there is still no improvement. It is a tragedy and a shame that this should have happened. I cannot understand the reason. Was it decided that the basin project was not feasible despite the fact that, on the best advice available to me, I know it was feasible—and that came from the Office of Public Works as well as from other directions, when I was Minister for Fisheries? We were driven to this conclusion, not as an ideal solution but as the one which showed the best prospect of giving the best return for the money and affording some protection to the fleet that has steadfastly fished from this base. I do not know if the Parliamentary Secretary would have the heart to try to rectify the position where good money has already been lost but the situation is still as demanding as it was before there was a penny of that money spent. I would ask him to consider it.
Mr. Kenny
Was the cost incurred by the Department of Fisheries?
It has already been spent.
Mr. Kenny
I understand that. Was it paid for by the Department of Fisheries?
It was done by the Parliamentary Secretary's Office.
Mr. Kenny
And paid for by the Department of Fisheries?
I take it it would have come out of this small harbours development scheme, of some five years, or something like that. It was done in the normal way through the agency of the Office of Public Works. It is a huge heap of concrete which cost a great deal of money and has provided no real benefit. From what I have been told by the fishermen and as is evident to anybody who goes there, it does not provide safe conditions for the fishermen. It is safety we are seeking, not just improvement of landing facilities when the weather is good. That is not the problem. The problem which exists has not been tackled. All I am asking is that the Parliamentary Secretary would reconsider the matter in as broad a way as possible and see whether, in fact, we might yet get remedial action taken by the expenditure of even more money but, in this case, providing benefit.
Then you have a problem at Moville, which is a rather queer one also, because there, again, it was well and truly indicated that the job was to be done on the seaward side of the little headland at Moville, the old stone pier, as it is called. That was agreed and everybody seemed to be quite happy. Then along comes this change: it is to go on the landward or up river side of the headland on the site of the old derelict wooden wharf. Some work has been done by way of sounding, and so on, but so far no very large sum of money has been sunk in it and no great action has been taken though the effort started some considerable time ago. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have a look at this project and check with the local fisher folk as to whether or not there is a basis for what I have been asserting, which is, that if this job is to be done where it is proposed, on the site of the old wooden wharf, it may, and probably will, have two extreme faults, namely, the great danger of silting and. more important, the great danger of being wide open to the elements and. in particular, to the prevailing wind. It is not at all likely to be as good as would the original location, which is only some yards away, but one faces downstream out to sea and the other faces upstream into the land.
There has been, after much perusal. the suggestion that the reason for the change was that there might be, perhaps, a couple of feet additional draught attendant on the proposed new site. This I am not in a position to deny though I would question whether it is true and I would, in my concern, question also why this sort of vital information was not taken into consideration when the original proposal was made after the survey had been completed. Why was this only brought in at a later stage after it had been decided where the job was to be done and, now, apparently used as the reason for the change from one side to the other? I could not care less which side it is, provided it is to the best advantage of the Moville fishing community and others interested. It may lend itself —I feel it would—to the development of water sports; it has a potential in this regard, certainly in so far as the old stone pier site is concerned.
I always believed public money could only be spent where the property to be developed was within the ownership of the Stale or the local authority. The site now proposed is allegedly held by the Derry Harbour Board or Harbour Commissioners. I am wondering how it is that we can find it possible to spend money on their property when, in fact, if it was your property or my property, even though it might be of public benefit, it would be a "no-go" operation because one could not spend public money on somebody's private property. What steps have been taken to ensure that this property becomes the property of our State or of our local authority? Whether it be on the old wooden wharf site or on the stone pier site, as I understand it, the Derry Harbour Board lay claim to both as they also lay claim to the bigger pier further up the river, Carrickarory pier. I am interested in this. This is a precedent. It could be followed in the future in regard to probably less publicised jobs or jobs of lesser importance to the public generally, but jobs of importance to some of our constituents.
Can we also have some action in regard to the proposal to develop our harbour anchorage at Fanny's Bay on the Mulroy end of the peninsula? What has happened about it? There was a proposal there incorporated in the general overall five-year plan and it seems to have died a very quiet death. It has not moved in any direction. Again, I would ask why has it not and why should it not? Is it not about time this five-year programme, which I was authorised to announce, took off? Why has it not taken off and been pursued persistently and consistently year by year on the programme basis drawn up at that particular time?
We have also our problems at Magheraroarty and Curransport which are further west. On this west coast stretch there are two interests very much concerned. Magheraroarty is undoubtedly the point at which we can give some sort of landing facilities, very badly needed improved landing facilities, to the people from the islands of Inishboffin and Tory. There seems to be a conflict. Whether it is a genuine conflict or one that has been activated as between the fishing interests which claim Curransport to be the spot where we need development and Magheraroarty, which is nearby and which undoubtedly badly needs landing facilities and embarkation facilities to and from the island, is something I do not know. These two must be looked at and it may well be that both, in the interests of the island community there and the mainland dwellers, may have to be treated rather than just the one.
There was a meeting, I believe, held in regard to this matter, convened by I know not whom, but by some person on behalf of some Government agency, the Board of Works people, BIM, Roinn na Gaeltachta or what, I just do not know. I certainly was not invited to the meeting despite the fact that this particular problem lies in my constituency and despite the fact that all sorts of other people with varying interests were invited. I was not invited. It may have been an oversight or it may well have been that I knew too much about what the plans were in the past as to what should be done at both these places and it might not have been to the satisfaction of those sponsoring the meeting where, incidentally, the kernel of the meeting was: "Well, you can have either one or the other, but you cannot have both". There was a sort of general movement around for days before to get the people lined up in the fishing community into saying they wanted one place more than the other. I do not think that is the way to go about determining what should be done in the interests of the community generally and I do not think this is the type of meeting there should be where only some public representatives are acknowledged to exist; this is not the type of meeting that should be sponsored by any agency of the Goverment.
Mr. Kenny
Who convened the meeting?
I am not even sure of that. As I said, it could have been the Board of Works, BIM, Roinn na Gaeltachta. Take your pick. Somewhere down the line somebody out of that particular grouping convened the meeting. I would not be surprised if it went beyond that grouping, but I cannot imagine any other agency that it might have been.
Mr. Kenny
What location was this?
The meeting was held in Gortahork or Magheraroarty. I am not quite sure which. I heard about it only after it was over. It is not all that recent. It was some months before the Parliamentary Secretary took office. I am not quite sure, but it is in my mind very clearly that it was a get-together that would appear to have the content of being truly representative of the various interests involved and all I can say is that it was not.
The main thing in which I am now interested is that the present Parliamentary Secretary, in whatever way he can, should impress on the Fisheries Division or whoever supplies the money in this case, perhaps Roinn na Gaeltachta, that both Magheraroarty and Curransport, which are only a couple of miles apart, should be looked at again. It may be necessary to do a job on both.
There is another job which has been hanging fire for almost four years. It is a little landing place in north-west Donegal known as Sladanavoohogue. It, I understand, was passed and the money sanctioned for it as far back, perhaps, as 1969. That is the information I have, though I am not absolutely certain that that is so. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have a look at this job and to see if it can be done. It appears that there is very little holding it up because what has to be done has been agreed on and the money has been sanctioned by Roinn na Gaeltachta, this being a Gaeltacht area in the parish of Fanad.
These are jobs that fall within my own constituency. There was an over-all five-year programme agreed and announced and money was to be provided by agreement of the Government to the extent of £1 million, which would have to be added to considerably now to make up for the fall in the value of money and the ever-increasing cost of doing the jobs projected. What has been happening to it and why is it not going on? Why has so much time been put into investigation, research and examining of our coasts which will be largely abortive and wasted if we do not follow it through? It is very necessary that these jobs be done, not just in my constituency but down along the west coast, the south-west and south coasts. I thought they were urgent five or six years ago. They are even more urgent now. I cannot see the prospects that are being held out by other agencies in regard to the development of fisheries being fulfilled if we are not, on our rugged and dangerous west coast at least, prepared to put in what is niggardly really in relation to the benefit that can be derived from it —£1 million—and do this fairly quickly, as was intended at the time it was announced.
Drainage is another of the big undertakings of the Office of Public Works. Arterial drainage has been their heavy commitment for many years. Over the years we have been told of the 28 major catchment areas that were listed in order of priority, that priority having been arrived at on the basis of the acreages of the catchments that would benefit. I never agreed with the manner of the assessment because if you relieve a thousand acres of rock-strewn countryside at a cost of £X per acre this cannot be held to be of more value to the community than the relief of 100 acres of really good productive land for the same amount, or for three times the amount of money. However, that was the yardstick that was used and we have all gone along with it over the years. To my amazement and, indeed, disappointment I found, as a result of questioning the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor not many months ago, that there has been a change of mind in regard to arterial jobs. We have proceeded through the major ones, the ones costing a lot of money, and we are now getting very wise altogether and applying a cost/benefit analysis to some of the remainder. I did not think there were that many left to be processed but I do know that one of them is in my own area, the river Lennon. It is near the end of the list—26th, 27th or 28th.
There is no doubt that the doing of that job would provide, in a landhungry area, many hundreds of acres of excellent land. We are now being told that while the rock-strewn areas of other parts, much bigger catchment areas and costing much more money, have already been done out of our money and everybody else's money, we are now being wise after the event and applying a cost/benefit analysis to the remainder. I am particularly concerned about the river Lennon. We have patiently awaited our turn. This is a small catchment area but one in which every acre that would be relieved of flooding would be highly productive. The Parliamentary Secretary should look very closely at this and even at the cost/benefit analysis results.
We should not equate acre with acre from one catchment area to another but rather equate the cost of relieving productive acres against the benefit that those acres would be to the community, which in this case is a community of very small landhungry farmers where an extra few acres can make all the difference between their subsisting, disappearing or prospering. This must be looked at in this light. The computer will not give that sort of answer unless it is fed in a very sophisticated way, which I do not think we can expect at this stage. That is not a reflection on anybody. The yardstick by which the arterial drainage system is measured is the importance of the area as determined by the thousands of acres of the catchment rather than the true benefit that would come from the expenditure. We started on, I think, the wrong basis. We are now swinging over when it is a bit late in the day to what I think should have been the basis. I wonder if those who are applying this cost/benefit analysis are giving sufficient weight to the local farming pattern, the size of farms, the productivity of the land and this sort of thing and realising that no catchment area can be compared with another. There is no yardstick. They must be examined within the context of the farming and operations that go on in each area. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary and his office to keep that in mind.
We very much resent the idea that having spent many millions—I am not regretting that they have been spent-on the large catchment areas, we should now become niggardly in regard to improving the smaller catchment areas. It is a sort of contradiction. Even if it could be shown at this stage that on a cost analysis the costing might not turn out to be so profitable on the balance sheet, this is not to be measured in balance sheet profits as emerging from such an assessment but rather on the social pattern, the area of land, the size of the farms and the people who live there. What these additional acres could do in any particular case should be weighed in the scales before there is any suggestion of a cessation of proceedings for the drainage of rivers on this list drawn up in 1945. I also say that unless it can be shown that it was madness in its entirety, having gone as far as we have and spent so much, we should at least complete the job of the drainage of all these listed rivers.
This brings me to the other method which could have been used on such a river as the Lennon—that scheme which was introduced and operated for a while known as the intermediate river drainage scheme. It was a scheme primarily introduced to do useful work on the smaller catchment areas, even though some of these areas might be included at the tail end of the arterial drainage scheme. One such project which we got through and which resulted in a wonderful job. with the great benefit which is now emerging in its full form, with real productive activity on the land, was the project for the river Swilly and the Swilly Valley in Donegal. That was done under the intermediate river drainage scheme, though it was listed as one of the arterial rivers. It could be said that it was probably given the treatment without waiting its turn, and —perhaps it was—but a good job was done and it is a pity that many of the others were not also done rather than waiting to get all the big ones done before getting down to these. These smaller schemes can be much more important from the local community point of view and provide greater benefits than the larger and more wideflung schemes would provide.
Is there any hope of that scheme being applied to rivers such as the Lennon and, I am sure, many others throughout the country which have no way of being taken care of and which have little hope of being done in the future? These are put on the long finger, probably justifiably, and are being continually put back. We are told that there is nothing to cover them, that the arterial rivers are being done, that so much money is being provided and that it is being increased every year and "when they are done, we will have a look at the others". We should be doing them now because we could do so many of them so much more quickly than we could do one big one and at far less cost and. I would venture to suggest, collectively to far greater benefit. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have a look at that device or subterfuge known as the intermediate river drainage scheme which was a good scheme if pursued with vigour.
Garda housing and barracks have been commented on today and the National Building Agency have been mentioned. Quite candidly, I do not think it matters a great deal which agency does the housing. I never agreed with the idea that there should be two agencies. How the NBA came into the Garda housing programme I am fully aware because I was responsible for initiating the National Building Agency and was in on the deal made with the Department of Justice to get on with a fairly fast programme of housing personnel. I remember that the first tentative agreement arrived at was that the National Building Agency were commissioned by the Department of Justice to build 1,000 houses as fast as they could, but I was later told—a fair amount had been done in getting on with the 1,000 houses by the NBA— the Department of Justice indicated a change which was that we were to be reduced to 500 and the other 500 given to the Board of Works.
I was given to understand, whether factually or not, that this arose from internal departmental jealousies and that it was in order to have a good reception for both sides that the Department decided to split the loaf and to give 500 houses to the people who had been doing their work over the years and 500 to the NBA and then see which did the better job. I do not think there was ever any assessment attempted to see which did the better job. All I can say is that more houses should be built for the Garda and they should be built on the basis on which the NBA set out to build in the first instance, that while the outer architectural details of the houses might differ, the room sizes and shapes should remain as they were. The purpose of this was to facilitate gardaí in moving from one house to another, in that floor coverings, curtains and fittings could be transferred without the slightest loss. This was one of the ideas we had at the time and it is one which should be kept in mind.
More of these houses should be built and gardai should not be—I am not objecting to it but priorities being as they are—in any case taking up local authority houses or, indeed. scarce local private housing where the needs are already well established over the years and where they will continue to be wanted in the future. The Department of Justice, through the Board of Works or the NBA, should do more often and more of what we were doing some years ago and do it on the basis of making it easy and less costly for any member of the Garda to transfer, in that he will know that everything he has will fit the house whereever he is going. This is something the Garda appreciate in the number of houses that were built as from that date and I think there will be an ever-increasing benefit to more and more of them as we build more houses for them.
This idea of a barracks has gone out the window. It is more an office we have now with office hours being worked as we know to our loss in many parts of rural Ireland. When I use the word "loss" I mean it in many senses, not in relation to any loss in the way of protection but from the point of view of the facilities which the local barracks once afforded in these villages where an all-night telephone service is not available. We have gone back quite a bit in these years rather than forward in that while we have our barracks, which are no longer barracks as we knew them—perhaps that is not a bad thing —we now have offices with office hours being worked and we no longer have available the facility of telephone communication at any hour of the night to other parts of the country in an emergency. We do not have this facility any more and it is a pity that should be so. I do not suggest that we should change the system for the Garda to rearrange that sort of thing but I do say that it is a reflection on the other agencies of the State that this sort of facility which existed many years ago has, because of changes in the structure of the Garda operation disappeared and has not been replaced by the State agency that should have care for this sort of thing.
Coast erosion is one of the big problems of this country. Down the years there has always been a big kick about erosion but when it came to dealing with this problem it was discovered that there was no scheme, no money and no legislation to deal with it. Later, with a great hurrah, we got the legislation and the scheme. We expected then that we would get the money and the action. However, the only action I have seen since then was the action of the sea in further eroding so many places along our coasts.
That is not to say that nothing has been done. Some jobs have been carried out. The promise was held out to those who are long suffering and trying to get such operations going but the performance in regard to coast erosion work falls far short of the expectations of even the most timid of those people. This problem should be tackled immediately. These schemes are the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, and if they are not carried out we are inclined to blame them for that.
It is only partly true that they are to blame because if the Office of Public Works is not given the money nobody can blame them for not carrying out such schemes. Far too little money is provided to tackle this problem of coast erosion and far too little is being put at the disposal of the Office of Public Works to get on with this job. Nobody knows that better than the Office of Public Works because they have had to listen to the complaints down the years. They have had to examine the reports on coast erosion and they are fully alive to the need there is for speedier action on coast erosion.
There are few in this House who would not commend through the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, and to the Minister for Finance, in particular, that more action should be taken before there is any more damage. It should be remembered that once the erosion takes place nothing can be done to remedy the matter. We must look at the problem in this light, once lost we cannot get this land back. We should not look too closely at the actual cost of such work because we do not get a second chance, and it is not possible to retrieve such land.
While the Department of Finance should be listened to when Estimates of this type are being prepared little heed should be taken of them because their job is to reduce, to every degree possible in order to present their budget in a most pleasing manner, and look after the national housekeeping in a prudent way. The question is, where does prudence end in this regard. A loss due to erosion cannot be made up in any regard.
I do not envy the job of the Parliamentary Secretary. He is the agent who is blamed for the non-performance of the work in respect of so many other Departments of State. It is through lack of finance, omissions, lack of planning or direction that his office suffers. As has been the case over the years we will continue to blame the Parliamentary Secretary in the hope that it will help him to fight for more of the wherewithal from these various State agencies and Departments, who promise so much and give so little unless somebody kicks them into doing so. I am aware that the Parliamentary Secretary was a fair good kicker in his lime in other respects and I hope that he will do a good job in this regard.
I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his elevation to this office. The talents he possesses will show themselves in this rather mundane office. He will bring to it some of the vitality and energy for which he is noted.
On a point of information, I was under the impression that one of the speakers from this side of the House would be called next. Deputy O'Sullivan spoke before Deputy Blaney and for that reason, I thought a Fianna Fáil speaker would be called after Deputy Blaney.
The Chair is in charge of such matters and the Chair decides to call Members from both sides of the House.
I will be very brief and will not detain the Deputy long. It is wrong that all our arrows, and slings, should be aimed at the Parliamentary Secretary because his office acts more as a distribution centre. The money voted to him is allocated and spent in many areas. If we are to find fault with his statement it should revert back to the offices that fail to vote adequate money to him.
Glancing through the Parliamentary Secretary's speech, I see that provision has been made for the erection of a glass partition in the Visitors' Gallery in this House. Like other Deputies who have spoken on this matter, I would not be in favour of this partition being erected. It would demean this Chamber to have such a partition separating the Members from the Irish people. It would give the impression of a glass menagerie or something that one would see in the zoo. If the security authorities persist in their demand for the erection of this partition I hope that it will be on a temporary basis. This barrier should be such that when it is no longer required it will be easy to return to the stylish glass barrier we have at present.
It gives me great pleasure to support the restoration of Scoil Eanna in Rathfarnham. This school has a certain niche in our hearts and, as well as providing a useful and a public amenity in this area, it preserves for our Irish youth a school that was so much associated with the foundation of our State. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to continue with the restoration work on this school so that it will become, as it should be, a gleaming example of what that great patriot, Pearse, hoped it would be.
I also welcome the decision to construct a new ramp and causeway at Dun Laoghaire. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to hasten this work because nothing should stand in the way of our tourist work. Now that we are in the EEC many more Continentals will wish to visit this island and for this reason we should have all the necessary facilities for them, particularly those using the car ferries.
Over the years I believe that the Shannon navigation has been neglected. I feel sure that the Parliamentary Secretary, being from the west, is aware of the full merits that will ensue from the development of the Shannon. In Ireland we have one of the best water networks in the world. Our rivers and lakes will be much appreciated in the future by the many continentals who will visit us because there is much pollution in waterways on the Continent. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to provide piers and to make available other amenities on the Shannon. I do not know whether canals come within the ambit of the Office of Public Works but it is a shame to see our canals in such a polluted condition and covered with weeds. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to do everything within his power to save our waterways. This is an aspect of tourism that has been neglected in the past.
We are very lucky in Tipperary in having some of the best preserved national monuments in the country. There is Cashel which is, perhaps, the most dramatic of all our monuments and one of our greatest treasures. This monument dates back to the 4th century and embraces all our history up to the present. I am glad that £5,000 is being allocated for the provision of a centre for visitors and for a museum centre at Cashel. I deplore the fact that in the past this monument has been subjected to acts of vandalism. However, vandalism is not only something of today. Harding, writing on vandalism in 1797 had this to say:
I'm vexed to see it their ambition to destroy and desolate every remains of former grandeur and to level in the dust the venerable piles, with the erection of which our progenitors spent their lives and fortunes, and in the defence of which they nobly shed their blood.
Unfortunately, the same thing prevails today but I am sure that those responsible for the acts of vandalism to the Rock of Cashel were not from the south Tipperary area. In north Tipperary there is Holy Cross Abbey. In 1969 this Parliament introduced a special Bill to enable public money to be spent on the restoration of this Benedictine and, later, Cistercian Abbey. I am glad to know that progress is being reported in this regard. We hope it will not be long until Holy Cross becomes once more a place of pilgrimage as it did in the 15th century.
Last week the Parliamentary Secretary, together with the Ceann Comhairle and other public representatives from south Tipperary, enjoyed a pleasant evening at Cahir Castle. I pay tribute to those people in the Office of Public Works who were responsible for the restoration of this castle which is one of the most extensive castles in the south of Ireland. Our thanks must go, too, to Mrs. Kenny who has graciously offered other portions of the estate to the Office of Public Works. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to accept her kind offer on behalf of the people.
I am glad to know that minor repairs were carried out at Kilcooly Abbey. This is a Cistercian abbey which was founded from Jerpoint by Donal Mór O'Brien in 1182. Minor repairs were carried out also at Athassel Abbey, an Augustinian priory which is the largest mediaeval priory in Ireland.
There are other historic monumenls that I would like to bring to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary also in the hope that, if not this year, in the years to come they would receive his attention. There is Moor Abbey at Galbally, Hore Abbey at Cashel, Carrick-on-Suir Castle which was built in 1450 and which is one of the best examples in this country of an Elizabethan mansion, and also Thomastown Castle, which stands a few miles north-east of the town of Tipperary. This castle was built in the early 18th Century by the Mathew family of Father Mathew fame.
We must give that priority.
I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to see if anything can be done in respect of these monuments, especially the latter which contains Ireland's most romantically ivy-clad ruins. I have been approached by people from the Longstone area of Cullen where a historic Standing Stone is no longer erect. A local group wish it to be re-erected. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will ensure that this historic stone, which dates back to Patrician times, when St. Patrick visited the area, is re-erected quickly.
Much has been said during this debate in relation to Garda stations and schools. I note that this year the magnificent sum of £5 million will be spent on the erection and renovation of schools. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give Kilross national school in Tipperary, which at present is rat infested, top priority and also to St. Michael's national school in Tipperary. I do not know whether vocational schools come within the ambit of the Parliamentary Secretary's office.
Mr. Kenny
No.
But he might make representations to the Minister for Education on behalf of the Deputy.
Mr. Kenny
I agree.
I should be glad if he would make representations in respect of Tipperary vocational school. It is gratifying to note that we are pressing ahead with the building of schools for the mentally and physically handicapped. This is the section of our community that is the most vulnerable and I am glad that there is a new awareness in this regard not only by our Minister for Education but by all others concerned in looking after these unfortunate people.
It is my wish, too, that further facilities be provided for the aged especially those who are living in county homes. Everything possible should be done to make life more agreeable for these people in their last years. I do not know whether county homes come within the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Secretary.
Mr. Kenny
Not yet, anyway.
He will make further representations on the Deputy's behalf in that regard.
I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to make representations to the appropriate Departments regarding the provision of better facilities for our senior citizens in county homes and in other homes for the aged.
In south Tipperary there are many areas that could be converted into amenity areas. For instance, picnic areas could be developed at the foothills of the Galtees, of Knockmealdown and the Comeraghs. It is very important too, that toilet facilities be provided in such areas. In respect of the provision of amenities such as walking and picnic areas, every effort should be made to involve the local community and then to hand over to them the maintenance of these facilities. In Ireland there is a well of co-operation ready to be tapped if only the people are given a lead and, what is more important, the necessary moneys.
As I said on the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, I welcome the innovation of a competition in respect of Tipperary town post office. In the designing of rural cottages and local Government houses I would urge that similar type competitions be initiated because, going through the country, one cannot but notice the stereotyped design of all these houses. No attempt has been made to get away from the old design so that all these dwellings have the same unattractive appearance. No effort has been made during the past 20 or 30 years to design. We need to build cottages that look fresh and that blend with our countryside. The present dwellings are a source of shame to whoever was responsible for designing them. Surely today it must be possible to have a more attractively-designed cottage. The same remarks apply to Garda stations in rural areas.
The Parliamentary Secretary dealt with many questions that do not apply to an inland county like Tipperary. However, I would ask him to consider draining the river Suir and its tributaries. The Suir flows through some of the most fertile land in Ireland; any money spent on drainage would give a much greater return than money spent on less fertile areas.
I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment and to wish him well. The year 1975 has been designated architectural year I hope that if the Parliamentary Secretary is still in charge of this office at that time he will have much to show for all his work.
I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment. Long before I entered this House I heard of the Parliamentary Secretary; I hope he achieves the same success in his new post as he did in other spheres many years ago.
I am a new Member of this House hut I must express great disappointment about the proposal to erect a glass partition in this Chamber. People from Dublin or from the country like to visit Leinster House and meet their public representatives. When one considers the amount of effort by public representatives during elections to become Members it is quite natural that they should wish their constituents to visit them here. However, it is not very encouraging to have a glass shield erected in the Visitors' Gallery. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will refer to this proposal in his reply.
I was glad to hear the proposal to provide a golf course in the Phoenix Park and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give us some information on the way the course will be run and the conditions of membership. Phoenix Park is under the jurisdiction of the Office of Public Works but it is the property of the people. If a golf course is to be provided in the park it should be for the people. There are a number of golf courses adjacent to the city of Dublin and in the adjoining counties where the membership fees are high and the facilities elaborate. If a golf course is made available in Phoenix Park the membership fee should be very low so that nobody will be prevented from playing there. I do not know the Parliamentary Secretary's proposals in regard to this matter and I hope he will inform us of them.
I was pleased to hear today at Question Time that the old Garda station at Tallaght is to be replaced. Tallaght is part of my council area; it is described as one of the new towns and it is estimated it will have a population of 125,000 in the years ahead. Blanchardstown is another area that is expanding rapidly and I hope there will be provision made for a new Garda station there. The same situation applies in Lucan.
The Parliamentary Secretary referred to work in Scoil Éanna at Rathfarnham. To all Irish people, irrespective of their political views, the names of Pádraic and Willie Pearse and Senator Margaret Pearse are dear. It is fitting that the Office of Public Works now have charge of Scoil Éanna. I hope the premises will be kept in a good state of repair. At the moment there are some sports facilities provided and I hope these will be improved.
There are a number of private schools in the city and county of Dublin and at certain times of the year they may have some kind of commemorative ceremonies. On these occasions the Office of Public Works might consider making available flowers and flags to these establishments. The people who run private schools are doing so in the interests of the children and at a low cost to the people. If the Office of Public Works would consider adopting this proposal it would be much appreciated.
Many Deputies referred to the drainage of rivers and I realise that this applies more to rural areas than to urban constituencies. Public representatives, whether at local level or as Members of this House, have difficulty in obtaining information regarding who is responsible for certain rivers. I hope a greater effort will be made to provide this kind of information. This applies to areas where new schemes of housing are being constructed. If a small river or stream is flowing through an area frequently it is difficult to get information about who is responsible for the river. I have had great difficulty either at county council level, with the Department of Local Government or the Office of Public Works in getting this information. It is hard to discover who is responsible. We have had quite a number of accidents from time to time and the same thing applies. As public representatives, we are called on to meet people and people become very annoyed if information is not readily available because public representatives are expected to know these things. It is very difficult to get information. While I am in the House I hope to highlight whatever incidents occur in my council area on every possible occasion in an effort to get proper information for the people in my area and the different residents' associations.
Mention has been made of Garda houses. I would welcome the provision of such houses and I hope I shall soon hear an announcement in that regard. It is immaterial whether these would be built by the NBA or anybody else. A member of the Force who is being transferred from one area to another should not be expected to provide himself with a house; it should be available for him. In that way the local authorities would not have to deal with this problem or purchase houses. This should be the responsibility of the Board of Works and the Department of Justice and I hope we shall hear more of this matter in the future. Finally, I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak in this House.
This is always a very important Estimate especially for rural Deputies. From time to time very harsh things have been said about the Parliamentary Secretary and the staff of the Office of Public Works but their activities are so varied that it is astonishing that they do such a good job. They cover a very wide field and are involved in many projects which are different in concept and design and on the whole we can be very happy generally with what they do. If unlimited funds were available, I suppose all jobs would be done more quickly and, perhaps, to the better satisfaction of everybody but we know that there are not unlimited funds and that projects must be taken in order of priority. Our duty as Members of this House is to press our claims as vigorously as possible and ensure that as many projects as possible that arise in our constituencies are brought to the attention of the Office of Public Works.
Far from criticising the staff of that office I have only the highest admiration for their competence and skill.
Over a number of years I have seen them in action both in the House, through the replies we get from the Parliamentary Secretary, and in the works that have been carried out, but probably much more significantly, at local meetings which they attend throughout the country where they are very often confronted with hostile audiences. They conduct themselves in an exemplary fashion and we are proud to have such highly qualified and articulate men in our Civil Service.
So much has already been covered —and one is loath to be repetitive— that it is difficult to know where to begin but one aspect of the operation of the Office of Public Works about which we must be very concerned here is the totally inadequate office space available for our Civil Service and the enormous sums we pay annually in rentals to private companies who are making vast profits from the State as a result of the shortage of accommodation. Could we have any kind of crash programme to ensure that we make ourselves as quickly as possible self-sufficient in this matter and get ourselves into a situation where we shall not only be able to house all our own staff and the various offices but be able also, on some small scale, to go into the office-letting business ourselves and use the profit from that for much-needed schemes down the country? I should like to see the hastening of that day because I am personally appalled at the amount spent on office rentals by the Government. I am not saying this Government are to blame; unfortunately, this is a sore that has been with us for a number of years and it seems to be getting worse every year rather than better. Very careful thought must be given to this problem. I am not so sure that the reservoir of talent we have in the Board of Works could not produce some scheme whereby we could effectively get such an operation going.
I was particularly pleased by the Parliamentary Secretary's statement in relation to Charles Fort, Kinsale, that he has decided to have conservation work started on this national monument this year and that a sum of £10,000 will be devoted to the work. I agree completely with that in view of the importance of this monument as one of the best examples of a 17thcentury military fort in these islands. I believe it is an artillery fort. As he said, its massive proportions and commanding situation at the mouth of Kinsale harbour make it popular and interesting for visitors and local residents also. I would remind him that a considerable amount of work has already been done by locals and, indeed, by foreign students coming to Kinsale in the past couple of years at their own expense and with a sense of civic pride to ensure that a monument of this tremendous scale is preserved and made look its best. They also ensured that the weeding and cleaning carried out there was not haphazard but was effective and would prevent further deterioration in that magnificent fort. It is a good sign of the country that we have younger people with that kind of spirit, who take an interest in our national monuments because our whole history is bound up in structures such as this and it is only right that we should do everything in our power to preserve them.
I was rather amused listening to a Deputy speaking a few minutes ago about all the abbeys and monasteries that will be preserved and restored.
Mr. Kenny
He did not say they were going to be done. He just mentioned them.
I thought they were all getting the imprimatur of the Parliamentary Secretary. I was wondering was he contemplating retiring from politics——
Mr. Kenny
Will the Deputy mention a few more?
——and going into the monastic field. They have a very important function to perform in our history. We should be preserving them for posterity, for our children and their children's children. These are the "props" of history, if you like. We were all delighted with the Parliamentary Secretary's appointment and we wish him every success. We know it is not an easy office in which to make a name but, with the dedication and good humour he will bring to it, he will do his job effectively and conscientiously. There will be constant demands on him for more expenditure. Everybody thinks that his own problems are the major problems. It is the Parliamentary Secretary and his officers who will decide what priority list should be drawn up.
I am very glad to see that for the coming season the Parliamentary Secretary has agreed to operate an information centre at Garnish Island and is recruiting trained staff to answer questions from visitors to this wonderful garden. The Parliamentary Secretary knows it and I am sure the Ceann Comhairle is not unaware of it since it was raised on the adjournment the other night. It is a sub-tropical garden of the rarest kind. It is unique in the world.
Mr. Kenny
And it is in the Deputy's constituency.
Naturally.
I am sure it is full of tropical types.
Like every constituency it is full of all types, some good and some bad. We are particularly fortunate in having such a wonderful garden on Garnish Island and it is very much appreciated.
Mr. Kenny
Does the Deputy know what Deputy Lemass said about the people there?
What did he say?
Mr. Kenny
That they were fleecing the tourists.
During his sojourn as Parliamentary Secretary Deputy Lemass thought Garnish Island important enough to visit it.
Mr. Kenny
I visited it before I was Parliamentary Secretary.
You were an obscure back-bencher like myself then and your presence would not be noticed. I am sure that in your role as Parliamentary Secretary you will visit it. Before he leaves Glengarriff the Parliamentary Secretary might discover that there is a little jetty or a pier there on which you have to be very nimble to board a boat. It is causing us very serious concern in the sense that it is limiting the number of people who can be brought to Garnish Island. This is a tremendously important tourist amenity and, on a couple of occasions, the county council——
Mr. Kenny
I know the slip.
I have been on to the Office of Public Works and to Bord Fáille looking for money to improve this pier but I have not got any money as yet.
Mr. Kenny
It is the one down from the road?
The wooden one?
There is a wooden one but that is not the one I am talking about. Older people cannot get on the boat, and you have to be taken over by boat. Every year there are 60,000 visitors to Garnish Island. Unless something is done pretty quickly that number will diminish rather than increase because of the inability of some people to board the boats. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will use his good offices to ensure that we get a substantial allocation to improve the position there. I know that he recognises the importance of Garnish Island since he is placing the information centre there and making trained staff available. They are specially recruited staff. Who recruited them?
Mr. Kenny
May I tell the Deputy now?
Perhaps it would be better if the Parliamentary Secretary replied later to the very many questions which have been raised.
The most urgent part of this operation is getting the pier repaired. If the Parliamentary Secretary could see his way to allocating a couple of thousand pounds a tremendous improvement could be made.
Mr. Kenny
The Deputy could not ask in a more public place.
I know he will do his best. He has not got a magic wand which he waves and money appears. It is a very pressing need as is also the case in Courtmacsherry about which I heard my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, talking. We have a substantial tourist business in Courtmacsherry for deep sea fishing. The pier is becoming more and more unmanageable. At the moment it is positively dangerous. When a life is lost something will be done about it, but we feel it is very urgent at the moment to take action and allocate funds to ensure that the work is done? Are we likely to get a reply soon to that question?
Mr. Kenny
In due course.
I know I can leave the piers at Glengarriff and Courtmacsherry in the good hands of the Parliamentary Secretary. He will give them priority. I spoke already about the vast amount of money we have to pay to rent offices. Could the Office of Public Works accelerate the plans we had a couple of years ago for decentralisation of some description? We will never solve this problem while all the civil servants are housed in Dublin. It could be relieved considerably if the Government took a decision to decentralise certain parts of the Civil Service. It was suggested that some of them might be going to the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency. I would have no objection to that. Rural Ireland should be populated by civil servants as well as anybody else.
This would be a very effective way of combating the shortage of office space in this city. The rates and rentals would be nothing like those paid at the moment. The whole question of decentralisation is directly tied up with the problem of providing office space for each Department. This problem cannot be easily solved unless the Government decides on decentralisation. I do not know what type of objections would be raised if the Government decided to decentralise, but the cost of office buildings would come down dramatically. There are many other aspects which would have to be taken into consideration, which would justify it as well, but which would not be relevant on this Estimate. The sooner we have a decision on decentralisation the better for the staff working in the various overcrowded offices of the Civil Service at the moment.
I note that a special building is being erected to house a computer at Inchicore. I suppose it is not the concern of the Parliamentary Secretary but I understand that all computers, large and small, involved in the Civil Service will be housed in this building.
Mr. Kenny
No. I think there are two different locations. I can tell the Deputy later.
In relation to computers generally and electronic accounting machines and mechanical accounting machines, it is very important from the point of view of the atmosphere in which people work that they be housed in separate compartments and in separate buildings if possible from those used for the ordinary clerical purposes because of the constant noise created. There is a great deal of talk about pollution. Noise pollution can be one of the worst types. If people have to work six and seven hours a day in a noisy atmosphere it does not help their effectiveness or efficiency. We should strive towards a situation where all mechanical accounting machines and electronic accounting machines and small and large computers are housed in special centres. Obviously, the Office of Public Works agreed to some extent with that idea because they are providing special buildings for computers. This is only right and proper.
As I come from an area which is entirely coastal from Kinsale to Castletownbere I must talk on this Estimate about coastal erosion. That matter has been dealt with fairly comprehensively by many Deputies and, as I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is anxious to get in to conclude, I shall not detain him.
Mr. Kenny
There is plenty of time.
I would certainly impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of having an immediate scheme to protect our coasts from erosion. We will not get a second chance to do this. If erosion takes place, that is a fait accompli and the situation is irretrievable. So, the sooner we start, the better. The more we put this matter on the long finger, the more land will be lost. We all realise the importance of land and the value of land, especially in the context of the EEC, where every square foot of land is becoming more valuable.
There is also the problem of tidal waters which are actually affecting houses. In some cases houses are being undermined by the tide. One can imagine the effect that would have. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that all possible haste is observed in devising a positive coastal erosion programme.
I would also urge upon him the importance of having the Glengarriff national school erected as quickly as possible. We have been waiting for a considerable time to have that done. Everything is in order now and I hope his Office will ensure that the school will be started and completed as quickly as possible.
Generally, there has been a great improvement in the design of schools. We have got away from dreariness in design. We realise the importance of new concepts of architecture and the utilisation of more light and the provision of more windows and so on. I have no criticism whatsoever to make of this new concept. I am, however, critical of some of the Garda stations and the conditions in which some members of the Garda Síochána have to operate. If we are trying to instil a sense of efficiency into the Garda and if we do not provide the environment or the amenities that will enable them to be efficient we are being most unfair to them. I find it difficult to understand how some of them can even stay for five minutes in some of the Garda stations that I have been in, let alone do an efficient day's work in them. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that there will be a programme to provide the Garda Síochána with proper working quarters. The question of housing quarters for guards has been well covered by other Deputies and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary, when replying, will give us more information on that.
I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider as a matter of the greatest priority the erection of our own buildings for offices and to ensure that as little as possible is paid out of the Exchequer to private companies for rent. They are making enormous profits and it is about time that we got into the business from our own point of view. In that way we would save vast sums of money to the Exchequer and the taxpayer ultimately would benefit from that type of operation. The Parliamentary Secretary would have the co-operation of every Deputy in this task.
In conclusion, I should like to wish the Parliamentary Secretary well in his office. I hope he will not stay in it too long. I know that while he is there he will do a good and efficient job.
First of all, I should like to express my appreciation of the well-meaning and helpful contributions made by the various Deputies during the course of the debate. In particular, perhaps, I should commend my predecessor, Deputy Noel Lemass, for his able contribution, in which he referred to most of the activities for which the Office of Public Works is responsible.
From the time it was first established more than 140 years ago the Board of Works, as it is popularly known, has had its impact in one way or another on every parish and townland in the country, not as a general dispenser of Government orders and directions but as a doer of things which are intended to help people in their everyday lives. The amount of good work which the board has done in that period cannot be truly estimated. I know that it has always been the fashion to criticise the board but that criticism is nearly always made without full knowledge of the facts. Mistakes have admittedly been made but, compared with the amount of work which has been done efficiently and well, these mistakes are infinitesimal. I can say when one gets to know the situation from the inside one can have nothing but admiration for the dedication, ready co-operation and hard work which are characteristic of every single member of the staff of the organisation.
I shall endeavour now to deal with the subjects of debate as mentioned by the various Deputies, which makes it much easier to understand than if I were to deal with the various matters alphabetically.
Deputy Lemass suggested that the instant translation system should be done away with. As the Deputy is aware, this facility was provided at the request of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the Office of Public Works have no authority to order its removal.
Níl an Teachta Ruairí Brugha sa Teach. Thagair sé don chóras aistriucháin. Tá forfhás agus méadú ag teacht ar labhairt na Gaeilge sa Dháil. Tiocfaidh líofacht chainte tré chleachtadh. Cabhraíonn sé le Teachtaí a bhfuil an Ghaeilge acu ach nach labhrann ach go h-annamh í. Dea-shompla do mhuintir na tíre é an Ghaeilge a bheith in úsáid anseo. Mar gheall air sin, aontaím leis an Teachta gur gá an córas aistriucháin a choinneáil in úsáid sa Dháil.
We come now to the vexed question of the glass barrier cutting away the public from the Deputies in Leinster House. Deputies Lemass, Calleary, McMahon, Brugha, Reynolds and Seán Walsh urged that I should take another look at this problem. Some Deputies held the opposite view. So far as I am concerned this is an extremely serious matter. Every precaution regarding security in the House is being taken, but we cannot be over-confident or over-optimistic that our efforts will be successful. One would never forgive oneself if any untoward incident happened. Despite every security precaution taken in the House of Commons a small bomb was smuggled in and ignited in the Chamber. It could have been a very serious matter instead of being just inconvenient. The public will enjoy all the facilities which they now have. They will be able to see the proceedings clearly and will hear every word spoken. I believe in optimum security. I will have further consultations before any firm decision is taken.
The Parliamentary Secretary might ensure that the Deputies can see the glass and might have the shine taken off it.
Mr. Kenny
If the Deputies did not look up they might be more attentive to their business. At this stage the Office of Public Works are ready to accept a tender for the work which is estimated to cost £9,000 and will take at least 12 weeks to complete. Before any definite decision is taken we are placing the matter before the new committee and the security personnel and will see what can be done. It is a matter of conjecture and a matter of opinion as to whether the maximum security is sufficient so that something might not happen.
Deputy Lemass also suggested that part of the new office building in Kildare Place should be used for the purpose of accommodating the shadow Cabinet. When the personnel of the new Departments move in there will only be very limited space left in the building. The commissioners are in touch with the Houses of the Oireachtas about the possibility of using such space to relieve the pressure in the House and generally improve the situation here. When the new extension to Leinster House was erected an extra 29,000 square feet of space was made available. Like many other Deputies, I wonder what we did with the same number of Deputies and staff before this 29,000 square feet were made available.
The Parliamentary Secretary will agree that the space now available is still inadequate.
Mr. Kenny
I understand that.
The scale of operation of Deputies has changed.
Mr. Kenny
Certain criticisms and suggestions about Leinster House have been made. Deputy Crinion commented on the need for a rapid cleansing department to be established here so that the curtain at the back of the clock could be cleaned. This will entail erecting scaffolding. The curtain cannot be taken down and cannot be reached without scaffolding. The job is not a simple one. It is a costly job involving the renting of scaffolding. Why was this curtain ever provided? It was provided some years ago to help acoustics in the Chamber. Up to that the voices of some people could not be heard. We will have this cleaning done during the summer recess. Deputy Crinion has done something for his country.
There was some complaint that the lighting in the Library is unsatisfactory. During the debate on this Estimate last year, Deputy O.J. Flanagan complained about the position of the light fittings in the Library. He objected to them. They were removed and more suitable fittings provided. It has been pointed out to me that it would spoil the ornate ceiling in the Library if light fittings were suspended from it. I am afraid we will have to make do with the present lighting system in the Library.
I can assure the Deputies who mentioned the proposal to have inscriptions placed on portraits in Leinster House that their wishes will he acceeded to. Following the debate on this Estimate last year, Deputy Lemass wrote to the Ceann Comhairle asking him to have the suggestion that inscriptions should be put on the portraits in Leinster House considered by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. That committee approved of the suggestion. The Office of Public Works have now written to the secretary of the committee asking for advice as to the form of the inscription. The names are to be in Irish and English and the date of birth and death shown also.
What English name will they put on Cathal Brugha?
Mr. Kenny
What name can we give him in Irish? So far as we hear, the required steps will be taken.
Deputy Gallagher commented on the work necessary on the facade of the Kildare Street entrance. This was cleaned in two stages in 1961 and 1963. A very careful job was done hut we did not regard the result as successful. There is a considerable variation in quality and variety of the limestone. I am talking about the Kildare Street entrance. There was a substantial amount of making good with sand and cement. The result was patchy and unsightly. The Office of Public Works engineer does not recommend another such attempt. The Leinster Lawn facade is in granite. It has aged beautifully and has an attractive mellowed appearance now. It would be a great pity if this was lost.
Deputy McMahon commented on the fact that the waiting room at the Kildare Street entrance is inadequate. He wanted some kind of extension. This is by no means a simple problem. The room has been examined by experts in the past but no solution which would be inoffensive, particularly from the planning and aesthetic viewpoints, was manifest. I do not think we can do much about that because it would destroy the balance of the entrance to Leinster House, Kildare Street. I think Deputy Lemass, my predecessor, had the same problem.
The very same problem.
Mr. Kenny
Many Deputies talked about office accommodation, and I was interested in hearing the views expressed by Deputies in favour of the policy of the State building its own offices, et cetera for the various services for which it has to cater. There cannot be the slightest doubt that such a programme would be the most economic way of solving what is a very difficult problem. The programme would, of necessity, be a long term one, but I hope that the start which has been made with the provision of £500,000 which is included in this year's Estimate will lead in succeeding years to much bigger things and that ultimately we shall be able to rid ourselves of most if not all of the rented buildings with their escalating rent provisions.
Here I would like to join with Deputy Lemass in his expression of appreciation for the co-operation of the city manager, Mr. Macken, and his staff in the matter of the assistance given in the provision of the building sites. As I have said, the programme will be a long-term one, and I am afraid the renting of further space will be inevitable if we are to relieve the congestion in existing offices to which Deputy Governey of Carlow referred and also to cater for new services, the creation of which may be expected.
Turning to some specific matters of accommodation which were referred to, I can assure Deputy Lemass that the question of providing some badly needed relief for the National Library is not being neglected. Negotiations are, in fact, in train for a part of the new complex which is to be built on the west side of Kildare Street. Deputy Lemass also raised the question of the future use of the space in Dublin Castle which will be vacated later this year by the Revenue Commissioners Stamping Branch. I have noted his suggestion of having part of it used as a kind of museum to commemorate people who have served our modern State well. The space, I should say, for the most part, is far below the standard of modern offices.
Deputy Governey is concerned about the need for new offices for the veterinary staff of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Carlow about which he has made repeated representations. We are taking special steps to deal with this problem and I hope to have work started there within the next three months or so. I can assure Deputy Flor Crowley that decentralisation is taking place. He was the only Deputy who mentioned this particular fact, but decentralisation is going to the west this time, to Castlebar, and we hope to have a contract placed within the next two weeks.
What about West Cork.
Mr. Kenny
West Cork will come in its own time.
Before the Parliamentary Secretary leaves the question of the National Gallery, did he consider if it would be possible to hang some of the paintings around Leinster House?
Mr. Kenny
To hang some paintings?
That were in some kind of obscure place down in the National Gallery.
Mr. Kenny
Yes, we have done that before.
It has been done but could it not he done on a greater scale?
Mr. Kenny
We have done that before, because one day in the corridor I was asked by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, for permission to go to the National Gallery and have some paintings sent to his office. It was only a matter of courtesy that he asked me, but that is a fact; we can get them when they are necessary.
We should utilise the facility more than we have.
Mr. Kenny
If we put too many pictures on the corridors, it would spoil——
The Parliamentary Secretary might consider it.
Mr. Kenny
Yes. If the Deputy gave a suggestion as to what pictures he wanted, we might be able to accede to his wishes.
These are pictures that have been hidden away. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has a lovely one in his office.
Is it possible that some of the pictures we get are the ones that Mr. White will not hang in the Gallery?
Mr. Kenny
No. I am sure we can take our choice of the pictures.
Hardly.
Mr. Kenny
We shall get some of them anyway.
May I ask if there is only one Department involved in decentralisation?
A Deputy
Education is going.
(Interruptions.)
Mr. Kenny
I understand we are stopping for a short time in Athlone. We are then going straight to Castlebar. Deputy Lemass referred to a difference of £100,000 between the amount, £5 million, included in the Estimate for the building of national schools and what he suggested was proposed to be provided before the change of Government. I would refer the Deputy to the reply to a recent Parliamentary question by him on the subject. There may have been a further reference at some stage to a possible provision of £5.1 million—I cannot be specific on this—but the amount which the commissioners were told by the Department of Education was being allocated was £5 million. Deputy Lemass asked if there had been a reduction in the number of national schools. Strictly speaking, this question is more appropriate to the Vote for Primary Education, but according to the Office of Public Works records the number of national schools now stands at about 3,800 compared with 4,625 in 1967.
A number of Deputies referred to the need to have the work of providing schools for the mentally handicapped speeded up. We in the Office of Public Works are fully cognisant of this matter and will do what we can to expedite the programme. For the record, I should like to outline the up-to-date position which is as follows: schools for the handicapped completed in 1972-73: St. Anne's Special, Roscrea, new school; Wexford Special, new school; St. Joseph's School, Cabra, improvement scheme. New schools in progress: St. Paul's, Beaumont, Dublin; Carlow Special; St. Gabriel's, Kilkenny; Newbridge, Kildare; Cootehill, Cavan; Sligo Special; Gregg House Special, Sligo; St. Mary's Special, Cabra. An improvement scheme is in progress at Airhill, Roscrea. The following schools are at various stages of preparation: Ballina, Dungarvan, Portlaoise, St. Hilda's, Athlone; St. Vincent's, Navan Road, Dublin: St. Mary's, Drurncar; St. Brigid's, Castlebar; St. Michael's, Waterford; Raheny, Dublin; Castleknock, Dublin; St. Killian's, Cork; Cork; Limerick Special; Letterkenny. The following improvement schemes are at various stages of preparation: St. Dympna's, Dundalk; St. Cormac's, Cashel; Lisnagry, Limerick: Central Remedial Clinic, Dublin; John Street West, Dublin.
In the case of national schools, Deputy McLaughlin referred to the case of Carney National School, County Sligo, where he suggested there is a dispute over a grant of £500 which he claimed is needed to provide modern toilet facilities, pending the erection of a new central school at Rathcormac. On inquiry, I find that the plans and specifications for the new central school at Rathcormac are virtually completed and the preparation of bills of quantities will shortly be put in hands with a view to inviting tenders. The case is being expedited as much as possible. A group water scheme serving the Carney area is in progress, but the question of allowing a grant for the provision of toilet facilities at the school pending the erection of the new central school at Rathcormac is primarily a matter for the Department of Education.
I might, perhaps, mention that the cost of such facilities would be at least £1,100 and naturally the question now arises whether it would be worthwhile spending that money for the limited period until the new central school is ready.
Deputy Calleary inquired about a proposed new central school at Attymass. County Mayo and the installation of electricity, et cetera, at Creevagh national school, County Mayo. In the case of Attymass plans and specifications have been prepared and bills of quantity have been put in hands. When these are completed tenders will be invited. The Department of Education recently asked the Office of Public Works to report on the feasibility of installing water flush sanitation and electric lighting at Creevagh national school. A report will be furnished as quickly as possible.
Deputy Gilhawley mentioned Collooney Protestant central national school, County Sligo. As this was the subject of a Parliamentary Question by the Deputy on the 21st June I do not propose to comment further on it at this stage because he got the fullest information then.
Deputy Calleary referred to Swinford boys' national school. The Commissioners of Public Works are about to recommend to the Department of Education the sanction of a grant towards the cost of works which will provide four classrooms in the existing school. There is no room on the site for a prefab. The Reverend manager has already provided terminal storage heating in the school. A new school is proposed but title to the site is not clear. In reply to questions by Deputy Calleary on the 10th May, 1973, the Minister for Education said that he was unable to say when the new primary accommodation would be provided; every effort would be made to ensure that there would be no delay in the final arrangements. The Office of Public Works were asked to advise as to any necessary work at the existing school pending the provision of the new accommodation.
Deputy Bermingham of Kildare referred to Ballyroe national school, County Kildare. A supply of water for this recently erected school has been taken from a nearby council well. An electric pump has been installed and a tap for public use provided on the school boundary. It is understood that recently the electric pump was not functioning satisfactorily and an Office of Public Works engineer will inspect it during the week. In the meantime, the old hand operated pump is providing a supply for local people. This well is not considered suitable as a permanent source of supply. A group water supply is proposed and the school will be connected to this supply as soon as it becomes available. We are not aware of any proposals to provide a public sewer which would serve this school.
Deputy McMahon asked about a contribution towards the cost of school sites and he also asked about the grant towards cleaning or painting schools. These are all matters of policy and must be settled by the Department of Education, not by the Office of Public Works.
Deputy Gilhawley asked about Easky Catholic national school, County Sligo. This was the subject of a Parliamentary Question by the Deputy and it is unnecessary for me to deal with it here because he got full details and information already. Depuy Gallagher asked about Newport central school, County Mayo. The information I have here is that a sketch scheme for the new central school at Newport has been approved by the commissioners and the Department of Education but a grant for the work has not yet been sanctioned by the Department. I understand there is difficulty in relation to the title to the site.
The Deputy also asked about the position of Derrypark national school, County Mayo. The position is that the Department of Education recently authorised an improvement scheme comprising the provision of water flush sanitation, storage heating, a play shelter and the execution of other minor works for Derrypark national school. The works are necessary to cater for the amalgamation of Finny and Shanafarachain schools with this school. Plans and specifications are at present being prepared for the scheme. The manager has requested a more extensive scheme and I have suggested that he take up the matter with the Department of Education.
It is all County Mayo.
Is this a tour of the national schools of County Mayo?
Mr. Kenny
This is an educational tour for some of the people here. Deputy Gallagher asked about physical education facilities at national schools. I want to inform the Deputy that grants are available towards the cost of providing some gymnastic equip ment, mats, scramble tables, ribbed bar box and balancing benches for use in general purpose rooms, ball courts suitable for basket ball and volley ball, including the initial supply of posts, net, et cetera, and, where possible, a separate area for infants is provided away from the ball court Swimming pools are not provided at national schools out of grant moneys. This is a question of policy and their provision might be a matter for local authorities.
I am now coming to the Deputy Deputy Raphael Burke asked about Swords boys and girls schools. A site for the erection of two 16-room schools at Rathbeale, Swords, has been approved but the commissioners do not know yet if it has been acquired. Grants for the erection of the schools have still to be sanctioned by the Department of Education. It is understood that the architects appointed by the reverend manager have been proceeding with the preparation of plans. Pending the erection of these new schools the old Swords school has been temporarily re-occupied. Some works have been carried out and further works will be carried out during the school holidays.
Deputy Taylor asked about Kilkee boys national school, County Clare. A grant has been sanctioned by the Department of Education for the erection of an additional classroom at this school to facilitate the transfer of pupils from Kilferagh national school. It is hoped to commence the preparation of working drawings for the project in July and to invite tenders in the autumn.
Deputy Fitzgerald wanted to know what was the position of the Carrigaline Church of Ireland school extension. Tenders are being considered and it is hoped that acceptance will issue shortly. He also inquired about Carrigaline boys national school. The manager is authorised to accept tenders for two prefabs at the girls school and a mobile classroom at the boys' national school.
Nobody realises better than I do the dire need there is for adequate working accommodation for the Garda force, the members of which are so conscientious and efficient in the performance of their duties. The general concern felt by Deputies in regard to adequate accommodation for Garda personnel is reflected in the number of references there were to this matter in the course of the debate. I agree with the views expressed as to the need for improved accommodation for the Garda Síochána and I am glad to inform the House that we have now set up a special architectural unit to cope with the problem. The problem has become pretty severe. There is difficulty in getting the number of architects we want and the Office of Public Works are in dire need of extra personnel to cope with the demand for buildings.
And the demand will be increasing.
Mr. Kenny
It will and, while one may have the money, one cannot get the personnel to cope with the demand. One cannot get the trained architects and trained engineers.
They are not just answering the advertisements.
Mr. Kenny
As far as I understand, they get better pay elsewhere. Deputy Finn referred to the need for a new station at Kilkelly in Mayo. The position is that plans and specifications for a new station there are being prepared and tenders will be invited later this year.
Deputy McLaughlin referred to the stations in Sligo and Manorhamilton. A contract has been placed for improvement works at Sligo. A new station has been proposed for Manorhamilton and arrangements are in hand for the acquisition of a site.
Deputy Andrews referred to the stations at Shankill, Cabinteely and Blackrock. It is accepted that all three stations leave a great deal to be desired. Shankill is probably the most urgent. Unfortunately, the acquisition of a suitable site here has presented considerable difficulty, but it is hoped this difficulty will be overcome this year.
Deputy McMahon inquired about Tallaght Garda Station. I understand the future of that station is being considered by the Department of justice and the Commissioners of Public Works are awaiting that Department's instructions in the matter.
Deputy McMahon also inquired about Sundrive Road station. He alleged that the outside of the building had not been painted since it was erected. This station has, in fact, been painted externally on a number of occasions. Work is again due and an order to have it done was issued by the Office of Public Works some months ago. I understand the contractors are starting work this week. Deputy Reynolds inquired about Carrick-on-Shannon Garda station. Steps have been taken to acquire a site for the erection of a new station here. Deputy Burke inquired about Lusk Garda station. Arrangements are being made to have an improvement scheme carried out at this station. Deputy Enright raised the question of Portiaoise Garda station. A major scheme of improvement on this station is being considered.
Deputy Geoghegan asked about Rosmuck Garda station. Tenders for the erection of a new station here are about to be invited and it is hoped to place the contract in a period of two or three months. Deputy White inquired about Ballyshannon Garda station. Authority was recently received for the erection of a new district headquarters and two houses here and arrangements are being made for the preparation of drawings and specifications and bills of quantity for the work prior to the invitation of tenders. It is hoped a contract can be placed before the end of 1973. Deputy White also inquired about Letterkenny Garda station. A site for a new station in Letterkenny is being sought. Deputy Seán Flanagan has just left the House and will not, therefore hear the good news, about Kiltimagh; a site for a new station is being sought there.
Deputy Bermingham inquired about the position of Naas Garda station. Plans and specifications have been prepared for a scheme of improvement at an estimated cost of £12,000 and, when these plans and specifications are finalised, tenders will be invited.
Deputy Bermingham thinks the present Garda station at Athy too far out from the town and he says the gardaí cannot adequately perform their duties. The present Garda station at Athy had to be occupied in 1971 because the lease of the former station had expired. The building was also in bad condition. It is the ultimate intention to build a new Garda station in Athy and preliminary inquiries about the acqusition of a new site are under way. Deputy Bermingham intimated that he could point to a new site and if the Deputy will let me have particulars of the central site he says is available I shall be glad to have it considered.
That must be all the bad news.
Mr. Kenny
It is. I come now to a matter of importance to both rural and urban Deputies. It is the subject of arterial drainage. Some Deputies are not sure what a cost benefit survey is all about. I shall try to explain briefly exactly what it is. Some years ago certain people alleged that the expenditure incurred on arterial drainage was not justified and that the money did not produce the anticipated benefits to the farmers and, through the farmers, to the national economy. That is why this cost benefit survey was initiated in the first instance.
As is to be expected, many Deputies are interested in arterial drainage because of the growing value of agricultural land. I think it would be well, therefore, if I restated the fundamental issues. Arterial drainage is a very large and important national problem. To deal with it would require a very big input of capital, technical expertise, manpower and time. Arterial drainage executed in a localised, haphazard and piecemeal way could be expensive, inefficient and even counter-productive. It is the best accepted practice to carry out comprehensive schemes dealing with all the drainage areas of a catchment once and for all.
When so much is to be done and resources are limited, it is necessary to establish priorities based on the principal catchments in the country. These priorities have been published and adhered to by successive Governments. In a trial period, an attempt was made to fit into the arterial drainage programme a sub-programme of small, in-between schemes such as has been suggested by some Deputies. This, however, was discontinued because the main programme suffered from diversion of funds, manpower, technical skill and plans.
Deputies have inquired about the cost benefit study which is at present being made in regard to arterial drainage. In recent years there has been much criticism of arterial drainage as a capital investment. When there are so many demands being made on the national resources it is necessary to be certain that they will be spent to the best advantage. For some time a specially qualified team have been investigating the effort and expenditure on and the return and the benefits resulting from arterial drainage, with special reference to the Maigue and the Groody schemes in County Limerick.
This is a very complicated and difficult exercise but the report is expected shortly. Deputies will agree that it is time arterial drainage should be viewed in a fresh perspective. The methodology being employed will be valid for all future schemes. That means, of course, that the experience gained by a detailed study of the catchments of the Maigue and the Groody will be used in cost benefit surveys of every proposal being placed before the arterial drainage authorities and by that experience this period of cost benefit survey and analysis will be shortened so that in the detailed study the experience gained of the Maigue and Groody catchments will have beneficial results and will shorten the periods of other proposals.
Thus, the specific proposals mentioned by Deputies, now in various stages of investigation and consideration, will also be submitted to cost benefit studies, namely, the Dunkellin, the Boyle River, the Lung, the Corrib, the Mask, Roe—they form No. 1. Then there is the Bonnet, the Owenmore, Lough Alien and all the others. When the Maigue scheme commences this year and the operations on other schemes commence in their due turn, we hope that because of cost benefit studies we will be able to assure critics of arterial drainage that the money and effort are being spent profitably. We can count the benefits particularly because of the increased value of land, the increased price of stock and the decrease in animal disease as a consequence of effective drainage. We can point out that investment in arterial drainage is the same as investing capital in industries. All rural Deputies know—I do not know whether the Dublin people do or not—that our best investment is in agriculture and it is appreciating every year.
Are we putting enough into it?
Mr. Kenny
Few people today are inclined to recall that before the Moy scheme was embarked on in 1960 there were almost 50,000 acres of agricultural land and more than 11,000 acres of bog in County Mayo permanently water-logged and unproductive. Some will remember the prolonged rainfall of seven inches during November, 1968, and again in December, 1969, when two inches of rain fell in the Moy catchment area within 24 hours. The newly designed drainage channels stood the tests successfully. In no part of the catchment where drainage had been carried out was flooding recorded. In pre-drainage conditions flooding would have been considerable and prolonged.
I am happy to say that the Office of Public Works are fully alive to the problems of conservation in all its aspects. Indeed, they maintain close liaison with cultural, environmental, fishery, game and wild fowl interests. I have been anxious to ascertain if the pace of arterial drainage could be accelerated with the help of money from the EEC. The merits of arterial drainage for this type of aid have been and will be pressed with a view to obtaining assistance from all such quarters.
Deputy White asked about certain aspects of flooding in the Ballybofey area of Donegal. He said the people in that area are anxious that when flooding occurs some excavators would be made available to relieve flash flooding. The excavators asked for by the local people for work at Ballybofey are held available for them and an Office of Public Works engineer will give them operational advice.
In the case of the Boyne scheme in respect of which Deputy Crinion asked the question, I am glad to say that liberal stocks of salmon and trout will be available for the whole catchment from the new hatchery which is being constructed for the fishery conservatories at Virginia.
In regard to comprehensive drainage surveys, the reduction in expenditure from £5,000 to £2,200 merely reflects an emphasis on design and headquarters work rather than field work. It indicates progress rather than otherwise. Somebody suggested that the reduction in the amount for this work was a retrograde step. It is not. It means that just as much work can now be done for £2,200 as could be done for £5,000 heretofore because of experience gained.
It is a good example for other Departments.
Mr. Kenny
It would be. To return to arterial drainage, some Deputies referred to the spoil on the banks of rivers. Everybody who travels in an area where drainage has been carried out has noticed those unsightly heaps of spoil composed of silt, stones or other unsightly matters. There is no doubt about their being unsightly and something should be done about them. My idea is that the county councils should have some type of mobile crusher and, in co-operation with the Board of Works, reduce those heaps of limestone spoil to road material. Such material would be ideal for secondary roads and accommodation roads and boreens. We have 1,600 miles of untarred roads in County Mayo and those heaps of good class limestone and rock, which are lying there in unsightly heaps, could be used on those roads. I am glad that some Deputies referred to the existence of these unsightly spoil heaps in scenically sensitive areas. Reference was made in particular to the Boyne catchment.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary say "scientifically"?
Mr. Kenny
I said "scenically". Did the Deputy mishear me? New instructions for the treatment of spoil have been issued to the engineers in charge of arterial drainage works and provision for appropriate treatment of spoil banks is now being made in the estimate for arterial drainage schemes. This new policy has received the enthusiastic support of the arterial drainage staff and a number of letters of appreciation have been received from the general public.
In regard to the maintenance of rivers, people must understand that when an arterial drainage scheme is finished the Office of Public works have no further function other than to maintain, at the expense of the county council, the drains, to keep them open and to keep them clean. They cannot open any new drains. Deputies should understand that. Representations have been made from various quarters to have new drains opened after schemes have finished. Under statutory regulations, the Office of Public Works are not allowed to do that. Maintenance of completed works is attended to each year. The guiding principle behind the maintenance programme is to ensure that the channels are adequate for drainage requirements. Maintenance work is costly and every effort is made to carry it out as economically as possible. Accordingly, where possible and economic, machinery is used in maintenance work. That note is for the benefit solely of the one Deputy who asked that maintenance work should be carried out by manual labour. That was Deputy Seán Calleary. Experience in county council drainage boards, which are now obsolete, proved that manual labour was a failure. Drags and men are futile in comparison with modern machinery for results. Maintenance work is carried out by the personnel of the Office of Public Works and the cost is then recouped through the rates from each local authority.
Regarding coast erosion, Deputy Esmonde and others referred to the slow progress on coast protection proposals. I am concerned with the position and as far as it is due to any difficulties which I can influence, for example shortages of staff or money, I propose to make every effort to improve the situation. However, realising the protracted procedures required by the Act and the fact that this is a very specialised branch of engineering with special emphasis on practical operation and experience. I regret that I cannot promise any great improvement in the short term.
That is very serious.
Mr. Kenny
This is the realistic fact. In coast erosion every single instance must have its own separate remedy because the sea does not do things in the same pattern in different locations. Each particular case of coast erosion must get the full treatment in a specialised way, in its own way, because the same treatment does not do for two different problems of coast erosion. The first step must come from the local authority itself.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that once land has gone into the sea it is gone for ever and there is no way of getting it back?
Mr. Kenny
Yes, that was emphasised today by Deputy Esmonde.
And other Deputies.
I tried very hard to gel more finance for this purpose. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will have more success than I had.
Mr. Kenny
I may be luckier than the Deputy was. I will try my best too.
Does that mean there is nothing happening at the moment?
Mr. Kenny
It does not mean that. Everything is happening. The sea is still working.
We know the sea is doing its job but are we doing our job against the sea?
Why did you not do it when you had the opportunity? You had 16 years.
Mr. Kenny
We are doing our best.
The Coast Erosion Act has only been in existence about four years.
Mr. Kenny
Many Deputies, especially those from maritime areas, referred to fishery piers and harbours. Expenditure on fishery piers and harbours is normally borne on the Fisheries Vote administered by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.
There was a query about Dinish Island, Castletownbere. Work at Dinish Island is proceeding. The bridge to the island will be open in a few months but all the other structural work on the island—wharf, roads, synchrolift and boatyard—will take until 1975.
Work at Dunmore East is virtually finished while the Killybegs scheme is making good progress. Deputy Geoghegan had a query about Inishbofin. Proposals for improvements have not yet been formulated. It is, of course, the practice to consult local interests in all such cases. No proposals have been made to the Office of Public Works about Kincasslagh or Burtonport, mentioned by Deputy White. The operations in progress at Burtonport provide for dredging to a depth of seven feet around the new jetty and from thence outward for 60 feet. If any further dredging is required representations should be made to the proper authorities. The work at Inisheer, Aran Islands, is a concern of Roinn na Gaeltachta who I understand have the case under consideration. I regret that contractual difficulties are delaying the start of work at Rossaveel but a special effort is being made to resolve them as soon as possible. I shall deal with that again when I am dealing with specific representations made because I think Deputies who mention specific things like their names to be mentioned.
Or their questions to be answered.
Mr. Kenny
Or their questions to be answered, if possible. If the information is there they will get it. Deputy R.P. Burke mentioned Skerries harbour. He suggested that an examination from the fishery point of view should be extended to take into account the commercial possibilities. This is a matter of policy, a decision on which must be made by the Department of Transport and Power.
Deputy Coogan mentioned Rosaveen harbour in Connemara. This was the subject of a Parliamentary question in Irish by Deputy Molloy about three weeks ago. The position is the same in English as in Irish but I will give it in English as the query was made in English. The position in brief is that a tender for the work was accepted. Certain difficulties, however, arose regarding the dredging and rock removal and, as a result, the start of the job has been delayed. It would appear that the contractor had not the necessary experience or plant to remove the rock base underneath the water and that he was not experienced enough either with regard to the dredging. This part of the contract was allowed by the Office of Public Works to be handed over to another firm acting for the first contractor and that difficulty now has been overcome. It is hoped that work will commence shortly. I said to Deputy Molloy that it would be within a few months; I am not certain of that but that is the term we think it will be.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that that was brought up a week before the election as a gimmick?
It was the subject of discussion for some time.
This is not by way of interruption, but I would like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary could give the information as to when the contractor was appointed for this work.
Mr. Kenny
I am sorry, I have not got that information.
Before the election.
When were the tenders got out?
Before the election.
The Parliamentary Secretary has ail the files and knows what the position is. Deputy Coogan is talking nonsense.
I am not. You put out a circular the night before the previous election. We know all about the famous circular.
Look at the files.
Mr. Kenny
Deputy Gallagher mentioned the marine works on Clare Island. It would appear that when these plans were being formulated and information sought about the length of the pier and the depth of flotation required to make adequate landing at Clare Island local interests were included in the team of experts and Mr. Hayes, who is secretary of the association on Clare Island, now requires 15 feet extra on the seaward end of the pier. That may be considered favourably, but as it is now, the present contract will go on and later on we may consider favourably, if flotation is not adequate, adding the required number of feet to the seaward end of the pier.
The same Deputy inquired about the position regarding the major fishery harbour at Ballyglass. I went down personally to see the site of the proposed pier about three weeks ago. I was brought around by the local people. I had no engineer with me but from the look of the place, the site is on a rocky promontory and when the pier is built, the further or sea end of it will give, as I understand from the local interests concerned, perfect flotation for any boat that might come in there. As Deputy Gallagher said, and as I said on last year's Estimate, knowing the country and the ground, it will give the fishermen of Killybegs who fish off the Stags of Broadhaven and the north coast of Mayo where the richest fishing grounds are now, six hours in hand of steaming from Killybegs out of their fishing grounds and, of course, they can always pull in there if a sudden storm arises.
It is all happening in Mayo.
Mr. Kenny
Deputy O'Sullivan and Deputy Crowley mentioned Courtmacsherry pier and I am glad to be able to tell them that the matter is being considered at present.
How soon may we expect the child to be born?
Mr. Kenny
In due course. Deputy Blaney mentioned the five-year plan for fishery harbours for which £1 million was supposed to be allocated. He mentioned three or four piers and said that the money expended on the one at Glengad, Malin, County Donegal, was expended in a very futile way, and also mentioned Ruadhóig, Curransport and Magheraroarty. He did mention another but I did not catch the name. I can assure him that intensive investigations will be made into his allegations regarding the meeting to which he was not invited. When a Deputy represents a certain constituency, no matter of what party he is, he should in courtesy be invited to every meeting held for the benefit of the people. He alleged that he was not invited and asked me to investigate the matter to see if any Government Department were involved. I will give him all the information I can uncover.
Deputy Coogan inquired about the major fishing harbour at Galway. A decision on the future of this proposal is a matter for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and not for the Office of Public Works.
Deputy Taylor inquired about Liscannor harbour in County Clare and I understand that plans for improvements at this harbour, including an electric winch in lieu of the existing hand winch are under consideration. These works were recommended by the Clare survey team and the Office of Public Works sent a report and an estimate to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in August, 1971, and it would appear that they are still under consideration.
Many Dublin Deputies inquired about Dún Laoghaire harbour and its amenities and here I would repeat that I am not aware of any proposal to diminish these amenities. I should point out, however, that the harbour was constructed as a mail package station and not as an amenity harbour. The restoration of the East Pier will be completed shortly under a contract to be arranged. The suggestion made by Deputy Lemass that the work is being held up because of the change of Government is completely without foundation. The surface of the West Pier, and its approach, is not too bad but resurfacing it with tarmacadam is being considered. The matter of the level-crossing beside the West Pier is a matter wholly for CIE. The introduction of container traffic is at present not a live issue.
Deputy Moore made a suggestion about the provision of a yacht haven outside the harbour. The provision of such a facility is outside the powers, and duties, of the Office of Public Works. The Deputy will have to go to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, or some such Department, for such a project.
In relation to Dun Laoghaire harbour, is there not a provision in this year's estimate of £50,000 to improve facilities for container traffic?
Mr. Kenny
I will inform the Deputy of the position at a later stage.
Provision is there already although it may happen that it will not come into operation until later in the financial year.
It must be bad news again.
Mr. Kenny
No. I might mention the Deputy later. I will inform Deputy Lemass of the position later. I should like now to deal with references, suggestions and queries regarding national monuments and matters relevant to them which have been mentioned by Deputies during this debate. It is hard to keep track of all the Deputies so if I omit any names I will be excused.
Deputy Kelly asked about an archaeological survey. Two archaeologists are working on the survey. However, I feel that the progress on this survey is too slow and I am investigating the possibility of increasing the number of archaeologists on this work. Three Office of Public Works archaeologists, and 13 others, financed by the Office of Public Works, are engaged on excavations this season. It is agreed that more staff for this work, especially for rescue excavations, would be desirable.
Deputy Davern last night, in the presence of the Ceann Comhairle, got in on this debate because Deputy Ruairí Brugha allowed him. He got in under the pretext that he would speak only for five minutes but this eventually led to half an hour. The Ceann Comhairle got uneasy, but Deputy Davern was in for half an hour.
In fairness to Deputy Davern the agreement in question was for ten minutes.
Mr. Kenny
Deputy Davern had some interesting comments to make about his native town and other places in County Tipperary. He had some interesting comments, and suggestions, to make in connection with the Rock of Cashel, a national monument, and they will be borne in mind. The rate of pay for the caretaker is under review and a decision on it will be taken shortly. However, I should like to add that the concession for the sale of literature, which the caretaker has free, is a valuable one and, if advertised on the open market, would command a high rental.
Deputy Ruairí Brugha mentioned that monuments should be put to use. He made the interesting suggestion that, where appropriate, national monuments which are in, or can be put into a suitable condition should be put to use. This is in keeping with the modern thinking which is that our ancient buildings should be brought more into the life of our people and not left as dead reminders of our past. This is being borne in mind in preparing our programme for European Architectural Heritage Year 1975.
Deputy Davern also commented on Saint Dominic's Abbey, Cashel. I should like to inform the Deputy that I am having inquiries made into his allegation that an unauthorised carnival was held in one of our national monuments. I understand that the monument in question is Saint Dominic's. I will refrain from saying anything more on this subject until the facts have been ascertained.
We had a wonderful contribution last night from Deputy Coughlan. He had very interesting things to say and two of these he emphasised. He also made the very same comments to my predecessor, Deputy Lemass, as can be seen in the Official Report, column 1358, Volume 261, 13th June, 1972. At that time he was very concerned about the wages and the conditions of employment enjoyed by the employees of the Office of Public Works. He was concerned a year ago. My predecessor, Deputy Lemass, then stated:
Deputy Coughlan expressed concern regarding the conditions of employment in the Office of Public Works. He said that although a number of people have been employed by the Office for between five and 20 years they are still temporary and are not entitled to pensions. I am not clear as to what particular employees the Deputy has in mind, but if he will let me have the details I will look into the matter.
Those are the words of my predecessor, and it appears that the details requested were not supplied by Deputy Coughlan to Deputy Lemass a year ago. I am asking Deputy Coughlan to supply me with the same details. If he does so, I will look into the matter.
There was an interesting comment from the Deputy in relation to King John's Castle in Limerick. This Castle is only a shell of a famous fortress. It has a tower but the castle precincts are surrounded by a wall and, so far as I can ascertain from the Office of Public Works, they can only conserve but not restore any ancient building. It would appear that within the precincts of the walls the local authority have built a scheme of houses and that the local authority and the Shannon Free Airport Development Company wish to build a banqueting hall in the middle of this space that is bounded by the ancient walls. This year the Office of Public Works have allocated a certain sum of money for the preservation of the walls but I doubt if they can do anything in the matter of the erection of a new building within the walls.
King John's Castle is State-owned and all but the battlements, external walls and towers was leased in 1933 to Limerick Corporation who erected houses there and converted relatively modern military buildings for housing purposes. The proposal in connection with the banqueting hall which is sponsored by SFADCO is to remove at least some of the houses and to erect on the site a new building to be used as a banqueting hall and for meetings, et cetera.
The Commissioners of Public Works have, under the National Monuments Act, responsibility for the preservation, maintenance and presentation of national monuments. Provision in this year's Estimate for the Office of Public Works to which I referred in my opening statement is for a scheme of conservation works at the battlements. These are about to commence. It is evident that the proposed new hall which is a commercial project does not come in any way within the functions of the Office of Public Works under the National Monuments Act except to ensure that the building, in so far as possible, be in sympathy with its surroundings, that it should interfere as little as possible with the potentially archaeologically-fertile area and, if necessary, that an archaeological excavation be carried out in any area that is to be disturbed.
The National Monuments Advisory Council have been in correspondence with the sponsors and with the local authority in regard to the plan. They are an independent body appointed by the Minister for Finance under the National Monuments Act to give advice to the commissioners and they also have prescribed functions under the planning Acts. Of course, the commissioners would have to consider seriously any advice which the advisory council might give to them in connection with the project. I have no responsibility for the other problems in connection with the project mentioned also by the Deputy and I do not propose that the Office of Public Works or myself should become involved in them.
Deputy Lemass mentioned King John's Castle, too, and the reply I have given to Deputy Coughlan's remarks are applicable also to Deputy Lemass's queries. Deputy Lemass referred also to the Rock of Cashel. As I said in my opening statement, the Deputy went over the whole field of the activities of the Office of Public Works but, of course, he is familiar with every aspect of the situation because he was in that office during the past three years.
Floodlighting at the Rock of Cashel was provided and is maintainable by Cashel UDC under licence from the Office of Public Works. The property is not trespass-proof and it would be difficult either for the caretaker or for the gardaí to give round the clock protection to it from vandals. It is a disgrace that vandalism was carried out to such an extent as to destroy this amenity. The Rock of Cashel had been floodlit during the past few years but some time ago it was visited by vandals —I do not know whether they were local or otherwise—who must have had some kind of axe or other heavy weapon with them because they hacked away the cables of the floodlighting apparatus. I would urge the people of the area to endeavour to impress on the minds of anyone of whom they might know who would be aware of such vandalism the need to respect and have affection for the heritage of their town. The Rock of Cashel and the monastic settlements on its summit rank among our greatest and priceless treasures. If young people were responsible for the acts of vandalism, perhaps it is difficult to blame them too much, but if adults were responsible and if they could be apprehended and brought before the courts, I cannot think of any punishment that would be severe enough for them.
Is there no caretaker there?
Mr. Kenny
Yes, but it would not be possible to have a caretaker service for 24 hours of the day without having a three-shift service. Caretakers must sleep.
I had occasion last week to visit the town of Cahir for the purpose of officiating at a ceremony of floodlighting the historic Cahir Castle, a beautiful and impregnable fortress which dates from about the 10th century. It has its Elizabethan features but underneath its site a fortress was built in the 3rd century, giving the town the name of Cahir which means a fort or a strong point but from the 3rd century on the place was inhabited and in later years this fortress of the Butlers was constructed. It was a mighty place and a mighty stronghold and was left in fairly good repair. I wish to express my admiration and my appreciation, first, to the local people for their commendable spirit in helping to put that historical monument into such good condition, and secondly, to the workmen of the Office of Public Works who did such a magnificent job of restoration there. While I was in the town a very generous offer was made of another portion of the castle to the Office of Public Works by a very gracious townswoman, Mrs. Kenny. The lady has been mentioned in this connection already this evening by a Deputy from the town. For my part, I will do my utmost to see that the offer is accepted. If the conservation work on the old part of the building is of the same standard, the people of Cahir will be delighted with their heritage and with what is one of the most attractive tourist resorts in the country.
Deputy Gilhawley who comes from a most historic place in Sligo mentioned the Carrowkeel megalithic cemetery in County Sligo. The Commissioners of Public Works, aware of the need to protect this important group of monuments, opened negotiations in 1967 to take them into State care. As a result, all of the passage graves which formed this group are now in the guardianship of the Commissioners. A caretaker has been appointed to keep the monuments under observation and to report any interference or damage to them. The Garda Síochána at Ballymote, Riverstown and Boyle have been directed to co-operate with the commissioners in the preservation of these monuments. The commissioners are not aware of any damage to the monuments since taking them into guardianship.
Deputy Gilhawley also mentioned another famous place, a haven for tourists all over the world, namely, Creevykeel, Court Cairn, County Sligo. This monument is vested in the Commissioners of Public Works and the caretaker lives nearby. It is as well protected as any monument can be. Deputy Gilhawley who is observant, energetic and conscious of the great historical heritage of his native county, mentioned this area in particular as a priceless gem for the archaeologist and tourist.
Deputy J. O'Leary referred to an extension to the local burial ground inside Muckross Abbey. The Office of Public Works are opposed to burials in or near national monuments and they would not be disposed to allow an extension to the burial ground in this case.
Deputy Lemass referred to Holy Cross Abbey and suggested additional financial help for restoration work. The Act provides for restoration of the church on the basis of the total cost of the restoration work, exclusive of the cost of conservation work being recouped by the archdiocese. Any alteration in that arrangement would be contrary to the Holy Cross Abbey Act, 1969.
Has the State not given a contribution to the diocese on the basis of what it would cost to maintain the abbey over a number of years?
Mr. Kenny
Only on the conservation work, not restoration. Deputy O'Sullivan and another Deputy mentioned Charles Fort as a national monument. Some weeks ago a deputation from Kinsale headed by Deputies O'Sullivan and Crowley and the other Deputy in the constituency and with some of the associations involved, came to see the personnel of the Office of Public Works. They appealed for a grant for a fort I have never seen but one that is reputed to be one of the most outstanding star fortresses in Europe. After meeting the deputation from Kinsale and as a justification for our expenditure in this matter, I should like to put on record what Charles Fort means.
The site on which Charles Fort stands is an ancient one with associations dating back to prehistoric times. At first it was an Irish ringfort overlooking Kinsale harbour. With the coming of Christianity a church was built in its shadow, one traditionally associated with St. Eitin, the patron of Kinsale. Sometime in the 14th century Barry Óg erected the castle of Ringcurran and made it the headquarters for the barony of Kinalea. The castle was later rebuilt in stone and it stood intact until the siege of 1601.
The defence of Ringcurran Castle in that siege stands out in our history as an episode of high valour. The Spanish commander preferred to be buried in its ruins rather than accept dishonourable terms. After the siege and battle the demolished castle was partly rebuilt and beside it was erected one of the six lighthouses of Ireland.
From early in the 17th century shipping using Kinsale harbour was so considerable and valuable as to require the protection of a fort. Accordingly, in 1667 an earthen fort was built around the castle and ten years later the stone structure we see today was commenced. Apart from Dún an Mhishtealaigh which is occupied, it is the only perfect star fort in the country. As an example of period military architecture it is unique in these islands, and internationally there are few such period pieces. Structurally, it lacks nothing but its guns. It has even a ghost— the White Lady, whose ghost-story is regarded as premier in Ireland.
The barrack buildings within were burnt during the Civil War but the walls are still intact. It has a history also, of which a few episodes must suffice. Within the fort King James held court in 1689, at which attended Patrick Sarsfield and the Irish leaders. Subsequently, James went to Cork and to the Boyne. In the following year the fort was still held for James and it withstood a full-scale siege conducted by one of the great European generals, Marlborough. The siege lasted 14 days in contrast to the five days it took to reduce Cork. The fort surrendered on honourable terms and the garrison marched to Limerick and from there they joined the Wild Geese.
The number of notable persons who have been associated with the fort since that time is considerable. During the Napoleonic Wars many prisoners-of-war were held there and it continued to be used as a barracks until the formation of the State. It is important to remember that Charles Fort is an essential counterpart both in the study of the strategy associated with Kinsale harbour defences and in the development of the science of fortification to James Fort which is now a national monument on the opposite side of the harbour. This is what Charles Fort means and I think it is a valid justification for the grant we offered to the people of Cork when they came in a deputation.
Is there any justification for the name "Charles" ?
Mr. Kenny
It is Cathal. I have not that information but I will get it for the Deputy.
It might be construed with the later period in our history.
Mr. Kenny
The Bourn Vincent Memorial Park is one of our greatest parks. Deputy J. O'Leary inquired about Muckross House. Originally, Muckross House was built as a private residence but since 1964 it has been used as a folk museum. During the peak tourist season the average number of visitors now reaches 1,000 persons a day and is expected to rise still further. The water and sewerage system which was designed to meet the needs of a family and staff is now totally inadequate. The water supply comes from a spring well which has an output of only about 5,500 gallons per day during summer conditions compared with the anticipated requirement of about 24,000 gallons per day. The sewerage discharges untreated into Muckross Lake and, while in the past this may have presented little or no problem, it can no longer be tolerated in present circumstances.
Deputy Lemass and Deputy J. O'Leary referred to the discharge of crude sewage from Muckross House into the lake and each pressed for the early provision of a septic tank. They both suggested that when this had been done I should get after other parties who were also discharging crude sewage into the lake. In January, 1972, the Office of Public Works commissioned a consultant to investigate the matter and recommend remedial measures. His report has been received and is being examined. No time will be lost in making a decision on what action should be taken and giving effect to this decision. Provision has been made in subhead E. of Vote 8 to enable a start to be made this year.
Town sewage also discharges into Muckross Lake. Kerry County Council are at present constructing a treatment plant which, we understand, will considerably improve conditions in Loch Lein into which the town sewage is at present discharged in an untreated condition. Both Deputies also asked about private premises and their authority to discharge raw sewage into the beautiful Lakes of Killarney. A number of large privately-owned premises, such as hotels, also discharge untreated sewage into Loch Lein. The Commissioners of Public Works have no statutory power to compel the owners of these establishments to discontinue this practice but they are seriously concerned about the situation in view of their responsibility for the national park. They intend to raise the matter in due course with the Department of Local Government and with Kerry County Council to see what appropriate action may be taken.
Deputy J. O'Leary requested discussion and consultation with Killarney UDC and local voluntary organisations on the future use and development of the Kenmare Estates. He suggested that the creation of a small town park in part of this would help to keep people in Killarney and ease the traffic problem between Killarney and Muckross. The commissioners are obliged to manage the estate in the national interest and their policy will be to preserve as far as possible the natural amenities of the property. The provision of town parks is primarily the responsibility of local authorities but the Deputy's suggestion about consultation will be borne in mind in deciding on a management plan.
The former Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, suggested that the house on the estate be used as a country residence for the President. From the viewpoint of the Killarney area the idea would obviously be attractive but it would have to be considered in the broad national context. As the Deputy is aware, the matter is one for Government decision and all I can do is to have his proposal put forward for consideration. I understand that many years ago there was a suggestion that Muckross House be used for the same purpose but the idea was never considered in depth and nothing came of it.
Deputy Lemass spoke about property in Cork called Garnish Island which to me is one of our greatest and most beautiful tourist attractions. Deputy Lemass suggested that he had got some report that the boatmen conveying passengers to Garnish Island overcharged their customers.
On occasion, yes.
Mr. Kenny
He wished some bye-laws to be framed to prevent boatmen who overcharged from landing passengers on the island. There are no bye-laws; they are being prepared. The Office of Public Works have at present no control over the boatmen or their charges but the whole question is being examined. I am sure Deputy Crowley will be delighted that these people who go there in good faith will not be overcharged.
He says that no people around Garnish Island would overcharge.
There is no overcharging that I know of. They find it very hard to make a living there.
Mr. Kenny
When they see the Deputy coming they do not charge him at all.
What about the pier at Glengarriff?
Mr. Kenny
The Deputy mentioned that before. I said it would be borne in mind and Courtmacsherry as well.
Like it was for the past 15 years. What does that mean —in due course?
Mr. Kenny
In connection with the report of the Bolton Street Students' Study Group, Deputy Lemass suggested that cars should be excluded from the Phoenix Park as a first priority. The students' report recommended the exclusion of traffic from the park, but on a phased basis when the roadway system in the vicinity of the park is eventually improved. In the meantime, the Commissioners of Public Works are examining the implications, legal and otherwise, of having certain roads closed in the park either on a temporary or long-term basis.
It is a good job you did not close them before last Sunday.
They were taxed to capacity.
Mr. Kenny
Last Sunday? Yes, I almost forgot that incident.
For the big funeral.
A funeral for Deputy Coogan and his like.
Mr. Kenny
Deputy Lemass also suggested, seeing that there was to be a change of Presidency and the Zoo needed more space, apparently that the change of President would be a good opportunity to consider their case sympathetically. He said he would not favour encroaching on the polo ground. He meant that the Office of Public Works should surrender portion of the Phoenix Park called the Fish Pond, an area of about ten acres, and hand it over to the Zoo for whatever purpose required. An application has been received from the Royal Zoological Society for additional land and is being considered in relation to the use of the park as a whole but at this stage it would be premature to comment on the outcome. About five weeks ago I was invited to a function at Aras an Uachtaráin and was afterwards introduced to the then President. We had a chat in Irish and in English. He enjoined upon me, recognising who I was and the position I held, not to give up one perch of the Phoenix Park to anybody. I think he was right. I agree with Deputy Tunney and those people who said that if you encroach at all on the green belt in any city, one acre will lead to two acres, and this will happen as long as human beings live.
Hear, hear.
Mr. Kenny
It must be stopped.
This suggestion was made in relation to the Zoological Gardens and the Parliamentary Secretary must agree that they are doing a good job.
Mr. Kenny
I understand they are, but the Zoological Gardens are an artificial entity. The Phoenix Park is a natural lung for Dublin and, if you take away ten acres, you deprive people of those ten acres and, if you lose them. you will never get them back.
I agree completely with the Parliamentary Secretary.
The Deputy does not agree with Dev. so.
Mr. Kenny
Deputy Lemass also inquired if a tree-planting programme had been agreed with the Department of Lands. The Commissioners of Public Works have consulted the Forestry section of the Department of Lands and a survey of the trees is in progress.
Plans for a nature trail in the Furry Glen area of the Phoenix Park are at a more advanced stage. The details of the route, et cetera, have been agreed and leaflets have been prepared. Some steps and other physical improvements along the route of the trail remain to be completed, but the trail should be ready to be opened within the next few weeks. Deputy Esmonde, Deputy Tunney, Deputy Ruairí Brugha, Deputy Burke and others were very interested in the activities and incidents and physical exercises in the Phoenix Park.
Is that a follow-lip to the Furry Glen?
Or the Hollow?
Mr. Kenny
That is for young people. Deputy Tunney and others referred to many problems in connection with horse-riding and motor traffic in the Phoenix Park. As mentioned in my opening statement, these and other problems are being examined in the light of the report on the Phoenix Park by the students from Bolton Street College. A very great volume of correspondence with interested parties has resulted from the report. With regard to horse-riding and the danger to pedestrians and children and people who normally use the park for recreational purposes, I do not know whether the proprietors of the stables take out an insurance policy on the horsemen, horsewomen or pedestrians who may be injured in the case of an accident. In the Office of Public Works we have no information at all on the subject. If it is a problem——
You have no public liability insurance yourselves?
Mr. Kenny
No.
Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary might inquire into it.
Mr. Kenny
We will if it becomes a problem. It might be suggested that the people concerned should have a place like Rotten Row in London and that they should be confined to that area and trot their horses up and down inside a railing. Perhaps they should be given a paddock and let them do that. The allegation by Deputy Tunney that we were accessories after the fact was absolutely wrong because the Office of Public Works have nothing to do with commercialised horse-riding in the Phoenix Park.
Can we expect new bye-laws?
Mr. Kenny
If the problem becomes acute we will have to have bye-laws.
With reference to the Phoenix Park Extension golf course, Deputy Seán Walsh made a strong appeal regarding the position of the people who would use this. He suggested that as it was a people's golf course the fees should be moderately low.
Deputy Lemass mentioned very many aspects of the rehabilitation of St. Enda's. With regard to permanent playing pitches in the precincts of St. Enda's, the area set aside for the pitches has been prepared and made ready and the Commissioners of Public Works are waiting to hear from the GAA about the lay-out of the pitches. It is all set and, when the GAA send in the area required for the pitches, everything will be arranged for them.
With regard to the orchard and the walled-in garden, work is in progress on the development of the walled-in garden. It is agreed that a nature trail would be a very desirable asset in the grounds of St. Enda's. The trail will be provided when the grounds are a little more developed and the general public will be better able to appreciate the surroundings. With regard to the outbuildings in St. Enda's, a working group composed of persons formerly connected with St. Enda's and representative of the Office of Public Works meet at certain intervals to make suggestions as to the best way of implementing the donor's wishes to have the property kept as a memorial to Patrick and William Pearse. It has been suggested that the science room and one classroom should be rehabilitated as far as possible and that two further rooms should be used as a centre for field studies. No suggestion has yet been made regarding the use of two other rooms in the outbuildings.
Deputy Andrews spoke about St. Stephen's Green and playing facilities there for both adults and children. That was adequately answered in reply to a Parliamentary Question this week and I do not propose to give any further information about it because I gave him all the information in the reply.
Derrynane National Park comprises an area of about 300 acres of some of the most beautiful scenery in the Iveragh Peninsula. It contains a mile-long stretch of sandy beach, small sheltered beaches, expansive sand dunes and woodlands. The management policy will be to preserve the unspoiled character of the park while affording the public the fullest opportunity to enjoy its various attractions consistent with sound conservation practice. Since the park was acquired the following works have been carried out. A serious breach in the sand dunes has been repaired. The sea wall protecting the sand dunes has been repaired. Three car parks have been provided, one at either end of the beach, and one near Derrynane House. Picnic sites, drinking water outlets and lifebelt stands have been provided at suitable locations. Two mobile toilets have been located at the beach car park. At present we are creating a water fowl sanctuary in a swampy area behind the sand dunes by dredging and the construction of a series of islands.
If the experiment proves successful it is intended to erect a small observation building for ornithologists and visitors interested in the hobby of bird watching. That might interest some Deputies. Informational and directional signs designed by the Kilkenny Design Workshop have been ordered and should be erected this summer. The approach roads are narrow and winding and it is proposed to discuss with Kerry County Council the question of widening these roads at certain points. The foregoing development should adequately meet the requirement of visitors for some years at least but the question of further improvements will be kept in mind if the need should arise.
Deputy Lemass raised the question of Kilkenny Castle and was critical of the fact that work has not yet commenced on the picture gallery although tenders were accepted before he left office. A tender has been accepted for the restoration of the picture gallery in the castle but the contractor was unable to proceed. New tenders had to be sought. These have been recently received and are being examined. This would be the second stage of work to the castle. The first stage mainly involved the checking of the spread of dry rot. Following completion of the restoration of the picture gallery other works would be tackled ill stages.
The Deputy also asked what progress the Butler Society had made with their fund raising campaign to finance the restoration of the south tower. A lease of the south tower to the society is being drafted. When this has been done the society intend to give the draft lease to their fund raising committee in America so that it can be shown to intending subscribers. The society state that there is considerable evidence of goodwill.
Then the Deputy asked what progress there has been towards the provision of a bar and restaurant. The provision of a bar and restaurant is proposed but this is a long-term project and it will not be considered in more detail, at least until the works on the picture gallery are well under way.
Deputy John Kelly asked about the future use of the castle; he also suggested that charges for entry to the castle should be made. When the castle was handed over to the Office of Public Works, the Kilkenny Castle restoration and development Society put forward certain ideas about the future use of the castle for various cultural activities, et cetera. These are being borne in mind. The Deputy's suggestion about charges for entry to the castle and use of the facilities will also be borne in mind. The feasibility of a nature trail in Kilkenny Castle park is being examined. It is thought that there are insufficient relatively natural features for an adequate trail in the park.
Deputy Lemass was anxious for information regarding the Shannon navigational system. He asked were there further meetings with the boat hirers on the Shannon. Deputy Lemass met a deputation of boat owners representing the Irish Boat Rental Association on 13th October, 1972. Representatives of the Office of Public Works met the association twice subsequently and informed the members of their office's maintenance and development programme for the 1973-74 financial year. The association appeared pleased with the proposals and it was agreed to hold other meetings in 1973. So far, the association have not requested any further meetings.
In reply to the Dáil question on 3rd May, 1973 Deputy Lemass was informed that at a recent meeting the association was made aware of the development and maintenance pro posals for the River Shannon for the coming financial year. These proposals include additional landing facilities at Mouthshannon, County Clare, Rossmore and Portumna, County Galway, Cloondara, County Longford, Albert Lough, Hudsons Bay and Rooskey, County Roscommon, Victoria Lough, County Offaly and Athlone. He also asked what was the position regarding the transfer of the Grand Canal and the Barrow navigation to the Office of Public Works. The arrangements for the future use of the Grand Canal, the Barrow navigation and also the Royal Canal are being considered at present by the Department of Transport and Power.
Deputy Calleary went far afield from the Grand Canal, as far as Lough Conn and Lough Curran, County Mayo, and he suggested the desirability of connecting Lough Conn and Lough Curran with the River Moy. That would be around Foxford. Row boats with outboard motors can travel along the Moy from Foxford into Lough Curran and thence into Lough Conn. As far as we know, there has been no great demand for the provision, of navigation for vessels of deeper draught.
Deputy Reynolds drew attention to the fact that the Ballinamore-Bally-connell Canal has two functions—as a waterway for boats and as a drainage channel. To reconcile these two functions may present problems. I am very conscious of its great potential as a link between the Shannon and the Erne and, indeed, in its own right, because of the very scenic area through which it passes. On receipt of the report and survey now in progress, I am hoping an early decision will be taken on it. It is evident that the great growth throughout the world of the use of inland waterways for recreational purposes offers tremendous possibilities for the development of such regions in this country and we should be prepared to take full advantage of them.
There were many miscellaneous queries from Deputies that do not fall into any specific category. I shall deal with those as briefly as I can. Deputy Lemass was anxious to know the position about the inscription on the back wall of the Garden of Remembrance in Parnell Square. As the Deputy will recall, a competition was held for a suitable initial inscription and poem in Irish. At the moment the commissioners are awaiting a lay-out of the design from the artist who is to do the inscription. I trust the work will start soon. I should, perhaps, point out that the poem will occupy only a small area of the wall. The intention seems to have been that inscriptions on the remainder of the wall had best be left to the future. There will be blank spaces on the wall so that at some future date suitable inscriptions can be made thereon.
In regard to the Casement memorial at Glasnevin, also referred to by Deputy Lemass, the statue has been cast and the pedestal has been prepared and it is hoped that the erection of a memorial will take place before long.
The same Deputy was critical of the delay in proceeding with the restoration of the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham. The Deputy should be aware of the very heavy pressure of urgent work to which all of the staff of the Office of Public Works are subject. This is the simple reason for there not being greater progress with the project. The Deputy may rest assured that the work will now be pushed ahead as quickly as possible but I am afraid it cannot be dealt with in the facile manner of picking an architect in private practice and giving him a free hand.
I do not propose to comment on the highly controversial issue of a special display of what to some people is unwelcome statuary beyond saying, like Deputy Kelly, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, that I think such objects should be left where they were first erected. This comment was consequent on a suggestion made by a Deputy whose name I forget that all the statues that were not wanted, including that of Queen Victoria, should be gathered together in some place—I think it was the Royal Hospital Kilmainham. This is a most beautiful place and if all the stray statues around the country were gathered and placed in various positions around it, it would spoil the balance of the place. I have a suggestion to make. This is ancillary to a suggestion made by Deputy Coogan. Deputy Coogan came up with the brilliant idea that we should have a "speaker's corner" like at Hyde Park. I would suggest that all these statues should be brought to the Phoenix Park or elsewhere and left there for the speakers to talk to.
Deputy Lemass raised the question of the supply of dungarees on a personal basis to employees in the central engineering workshops at Inchicore. This matter has been raised intermittently over the years but the claim has not yet been granted. I have requested that the matter be pursued energetically with the other Departments concerned.
Deputy Bermingham from Kildare alleged that the Office of Public Works extensively use imported plywood in their activities. It is completely incorrect to say that the Office of Public Works insist on imported plywood being used. Specifications for Office of Public Works jobs have, for a long time, provided that Irish-manufactured goods should be used so far as possible. I would ask the Deputy to let me know some specific instances of the position of which he complains and I will have them investigated. If necessary, I will meet the representatives of whatever Irish company may have complained through him.
Deputy Lemass and other Deputies referred to the matter of access for disabled people to public buildings. It is the settled policy of the Office of Public Works that all State buildings should be designed and existing buildings adapted, where possible and as opportunity offers, for easy access and use by the disabled. Particular care is given to the elimination of steps at entrances and on corridors, to making doors and corridors wide enough to take wheelchairs, bringing equipment such as telephones, switches, et cctera, within easy reach of wheelchair users, and the provision in every building of specially designed sanitary accommodation. Many of the aids for the disabled, such as properly designed staircases and ramps, also help to make buildings much safer to nondisabled users. The deaf and hard-ofhearing are catered for by supplementary audible alarms and flashing lights, The guidance and detailed instructions which were issued to all Office of Public Works architects will be reviewed in 1974 and modified, if this proves necessary.
Deputy John O'Leary considered that the cost of providing and maintaining courthouses should be borne by the State. This is a matter of policy, not for the Office of Public Works, but primarily for the Department of Justice in conjunction with the Department of Local Government.
Deputy John Kelly was critical of the scheme of decoration and carpeting in the State Apartments in Dublin Castle. He stressed that he was expressing a personal view. I must say that from national and international sources we heard nothing but the highest praise for the decor and furnishing of the apartments which attract thousands of visitors each year. Some years ago 40 or 50 experts as a group visited Dublin Castle. They were interested in the renovation, restoration, furnishing and decor of period buildings all over Europe. The leader of this group writing after the journey through Europe and in Ireland wrote that in the overall effect as regards restoration, et cetera, the State Apartments at Dublin Castle were the second best in Europe. The premier one was at some state building outside Paris. This criticism by Deputy John Kelly holds no water whatever according to the standards of European society.
Deputy Lemass referred to the question of the disposal of a site at Galway harbour which, he suggested, was the property of the commissioners. I am advised that the commissioners are not the owners of the site in question.
The proposed women's prison at Kilbarrack, Dublin, was the subject of a recent question to the Minister for Justice. Consequently, I do not propose to comment on it. In any event, discussion on the subject is proper to the discussion on the Estimate dealing with prisons and not on this Estimate.
The provision of a post office at Ballyfermot, Dublin, is a matter for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Deputy Lemass asked for an assurance that there would be no pull-back on the maintenance of our embassies abroad. I am happy to give the Deputy the assurance which he sought. In regard to the Asgard, the question of her future is now under careful consideration.
Deputy J. Lynch suggested the provision of an official residence for the Taoiseach. I accept that the Deputy made a most reasoned case for the proposal. I have made a note of his arguments and will have them submitted to the appropriate quarter for consideration.
Deputies Moore, Enright and Brugha referred to the problem of pollution and to conservation and were concerned about a central State body to be responsible for these matters. The Minister for Local Government is primarily responsible for the problem of pollution. It is a problem closely associated with the operation of the Planning Acts. The Office of Public Works have no power in that regard. They are vigilant to ensure the protection of the quality of life. Deputy Brugha was allowed to talk about a commission with reserved powers, and compulsory powers for conservation and the avoidance of pollution. Many bodies are concerned about this, but they are all going their separate ways. There seems to be no unified effort. The three Deputies concerned wish to make a suggestion that there should be a unified power such as a semi-State body or some kind of commission with reserved powers and that the efforts of local authorities and others should be unified.
Not a semi-State body.
Mr. Kenny
They wish to have some kind of commission having reserved powers and with compulsory powers under which conservation and the avoidance of pollution could be assisted. I think it is a good idea. If that can be attempted in the near future it will get very favourable consideration.
Deputy Brugha and others referred to the position regarding the Kennedy Concert Hall. This was the subject of a Parliamentary Question to the Minister for Finance last week and it is unnecessary—indeed, it would be improper—for me to talk about the matter at this stage.
Deputy Seán Moore referred to the accommodation in the Children's Court and the bad condition of the building. and he suggested the provision of a temporary building pending the erection of the new major courts complex which is in progress at the present time. If the Deputy will look at page 10 of my introductory statement he will see it is intended to do this as soon as possible. The planning of the temporary building is, in fact, well in hand.
Deputy Gene Fitzgerald suggested that the Office of Public Works should delegate some of its authority for expenditure in the districts outside Dublin. It is the policy of the Office of Public Works to delegate as far as possible to local staffs, but I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that the commissioners are not without their own limits of authority.
Deputy Esmonde referred to the delay in payments to contractors who have built national schools. The Deputy is probably referring to final payment. Contractors go ahead with their commitments and with their assignments of contracting and they get interim payments as the building goes up. If the building does not come up to the standards required by the Office of Public Works, then, in ail justice, final payments must be retained until the building is in a satisfactory condition.
The provision of computers was mentioned by Deputy Crowley. There are seven computers for different Departments. One is in Inchicore for the Department of Finance and certain other Departments; one is in Kilmainham for Revenue; one is in Dundrum for Posts and Telegraphs; one is in Store Street for Social Welfare. The one for Defence is located at Coláiste Caoimhfn. There is one in Merrion Street for the Department of Lands, and one in Aras Brugha for Revenue.
I was talking to the Captain of the Guard, Commandant McEvoy, some time ago and he told me that since the last Estimate was introduced two members of his staff go at certain times to Strasbourg for experience in Parliaments of Europe. He accompanied them, of course, and, in his own words, he was very happy to relate and to record that they can hold their own amongst any personnel of the same category in any Parliament of Europe.
We would agree with that.
Mr. Kenny
Before I conclude I should like to pay tribute to the staff and personnel of the Office of Public Works from the most menial post upwards in the whole organisation, both in Leinster House and in 51 St. Stephen's Green and in all the other locations scattered all over the city and country. They are efficient, courteous and co-operative, and I trust they will continue to be so. Since I took over this office they have always treated me in the very same way as they treated my predecessors down the years. I should also like to express my appreciation and sincere thanks to Deputies on both sides of the House who have offered their congratulations to me. I trust that when we next introduce our Estimate their feelings for me will be the very same as my feelings for them. I want to thank them most sincerely, because I believe that in offering me their congratulations and good wishes they were very sincere.
The Parliamentary Secretary dealt pretty quickly with the arrangement I made regarding certain flooding in Ballybofey. May I take it the arrangement we made to help to eliminate the flooding there will be proceeded with?
Mr. Kenny
During my reply I mentioned that the excavators that were asked for by the people of Ballybofey were held in readiness by the Office of Public Works and, furthermore, that the services and advice of the engineers of the Office of Public Works will be given freely to the people of Ballybofey.
I just want to clarify this. I understand that the local authority have voted money from the rates to help towards the expenditure. I thought that this work should be starting about now during the summer months and I was wondering if the Parliamentary Secretary could give me some idea as to when it might commence.
Mr. Kenny
That is a matter for the local authority. They must take the initiative.
Is there any problem between the engineers of the local authority and the Board of Works?
Mr. Kenny
I do not think there is.
When is the next phase of decentralisation? Did the Parliamentary Secretary say the first one was in a fortnight's time?
Mr. Kenny
It depends upon the location.
When will it be?
Mr. Kenny
Athlone is the next one for the Department of Education, unless, of course, the Deputy would prefer to have that moved down to Courtmacsherry.
Not Courtmacsherry, but other places.
Question put and agreed to.