asked the Minister for Local Government if, in view of the fact that county councillors make up a major part of the electorate for Seanad elections, he will have the council electoral areas and the number of councillors to be elected in each area bear the same ratio of councillors to population throughout the country because at present each councillor may represent from 1,800 to 12,000 persons.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Council Electoral Areas.
34.
I have asked local authorities to submit proposals for revision of local electoral areas with a view to bringing about equality of representation within individual local authority areas. It is not proposed to alter the overall membership of local authorities in this review. I would point out however that so far as county councils are concerned there are no constitutional or statutory requirements governing the ratio between councillors and population.
Is the Minister aware that the ratio varies from 12,890 in Leitrim to 11,374 in Dublin county? In my own county the figure is 4,500. In view of this, the nine north-central countries who have 216 councillors on a representation of 4,500 should have only 91 while in the southern area, where there are 178 councillors, they should have only 89. For a number of years my county and those adjoining it have tried to get representatives elected to the Seanad but we have not been successful. Would the Minister bring in a regulation that would equate the election of councillors——
The Chair is anxious to help the Deputy but he is making a long statement.
The Deputy will be glad to know that the Taoiseach nominated a Senator to represent that area.
It is not in his area.
The Deputy must be aware that the last time revision was carried out was in 1942. This situation, which I agree is not right, has existed since that time but no effort was made until now to change it. I would have changed the representation now but for the fact that a public inquiry would be required and, since it is proposed holding local elections in June, 1974, it is almost certain the public inquiries could not be held or the results known before that date. That is the only reason. The Deputy will be glad to hear I propose to do something about the situation he mentioned, for a different reason, before the next local elections.
Would the Minister not consider postponing the elections until this matter is adjusted?
This is a separate matter. The Deputy is expanding on the scope of the question.
This matter has to be considered in depth.
We cannot debate it today.
With the permission of the Chair I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
In the context of the situation in County Dublin, where there is a county council with a numerical strength of 25 with a population of 300,000, does the Minister not consider this is unfair representation? Is there much point in the Minister sending a circular saying he will revise the areas without having a suitable increase in the number of councillors in the Dublin County Council?
It is a scandalous situation in Dublin city and county and in a number of other areas. This matter has been left since 1942 and the situation has deteriorated since then. I am doing all I can in the matter but I cannot do anything before next June. However, I assure the Deputy that before very long revision of the numbers will be under way.
Arising from the Minister's reply——
We cannot stay on this subject all afternoon. We must move on to another question.
Does the Minister not realise that in the No. 1 local electoral area in County Dublin there is approximately 60,000 population who are represented by five county councillors? Surely the Minister will do something about this between now and next June to change the situation? If not, why not postpone the elections and give the people a fair representation, which is what the Minister is always talking about.
I will give fair representation but not at this election because I cannot do it.
Deputy Blaney.
Will the Minister——
The Chair has called Deputy Blaney.
In view of what the Minister——
The Chair has called Deputy Blaney. The Deputy may not interrupt the Chair.
This is a very important item——
The Chair has called another Deputy. Deputy Burke must surely have heard. The Chair allowed him a number of supplementaries and I would ask him to resume his seat.
It is an important matter——
The Deputy must resume his seat when called upon by the Chair.
May I ask a further supplementary after Deputy Blaney speaks?
The Deputy will get no assurances on those lines from the Chair.
Does the Minister consider it wise or sensible to approach the matter in this way, particularly as he has his mind made up to go further later on? I suggest to the Minister that there is more than meets the eye in the manner in which electoral areas were laid out in provincial areas. I give credit to those who laid them out. Perhaps the Minister might consider it unwise to alter the boundaries in order to give effect to the equation he is trying to bring about in each local authority and then subsequently to find that additional seats will be required——
The Deputy is making a long statement.
I am asking the Minister if he is aware of the complication his proposal might bring about in view of his further proposals. Should the Minister not hold the first proposal in abeyance until the second proposal can be made effective?
The local elections should not be postponed for longer than seven years. Arrangements were made for five years but the elections were postponed on a number of occasions. It would be wrong to have the elections postponed for longer than seven years.
I do not want them postponed.
The people over here do.
Is it the Minister's intention to revise the electoral areas himself even though local authorities have decided not to do so?
If I had intended to do that I would have revised them myself but I did not; I asked the local authorities to make recommendations. Unless there is a blatant act of discrimination I will accept it. If that does appear, then I will refer it back to them.
Did the Minister state that if a local authority decide to leave the boundaries as they are he will not interfere with them?
Unless there is blatant discrimination contained in it, what I consider blatant. In that case I will refer it back and ask them to do something about it.
Question No. 35.
A Cheann Comhairle——
The Chair has called Question No. 35.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, it is my intention to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Is it a point of order?
No, I should like to ask a supplementary question.
No, Sir. The Chair has called Question No. 35.
I have not had an opportunity at all.
We cannot remain all day on this matter.
In view of the fact that I did not get an opportunity of having this matter discussed I, too, would like to raise it on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
That gives you 3? minutes each.
We hear you are an expert at discrimination yourself.
It all depends on which side of the House you sit on.
Now we know the truth.