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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Nov 1973

Vol. 268 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27: Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £10,742,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Education).

On Tuesday I was dealing with schools run by religious orders, brothers or sisters, which require certain extensions. The Minister, in conservation of whatever moneys are available to him, will inform these schools that they may carry out the extensions in three stages over a certain number of years. Quite often the religious order, once the contractor is on the site, would like the contractor to complete the job in two stages, doing the second and third stage together, but the Minister cannot permit that to be done in the same financial year in order to ensure that every area will get its fair share of the national cake available for this purpose. In these days of high interest rates it would be less expensive for the religious order concerned to borrow the moneys due the following year and pay the interest on them because, once the contractor is on the site, he can complete the job much more cheaply. I suggest to the Minister that should he come across this situation—I have certainly come across it in Drimnagh on two occasions and also elsewhere—he should send a letter to the school manager indicating that the next payment from Government sources will be positively available in April of the following year. That would make it much easier for the religious order to raise the necessary finance to complete the educational establishment a year ahead of time. If that is done the order will find it cheaper.

I referred to the difficulty experienced by the Office of Public Works when I was the political head of that Office in getting prefabricated schools which could be moved cheaply and economically from one site to another. Just before the change of Government discussions were in progress with the manufacturers of these prefabricated schools and I would like the Minister to let us know if these discussions have been successful and if there are now available prefabricated schools or classroom units which can be moved quickly and cheaply from one site to another. These prefabricated schools will be necessary for some time to come, particularly in areas like Dublin city which is expanding so rapidly; there are three satellite towns in course of construction at the moment.

There is a problem in relation not alone to secondary schools and national schools but also in relation to vocational schools. Recently I came across the case of a young lad who got four honours in his leaving certificate; he applied to Bolton Street Technical School for the purpose of studying architecture. He was one of 400 prospective students who applied for this course. There were only 40 places available in Bolton Street. More vocational places will have to be provided and provided quickly. I understand there have been some proposals and some to-ing and fro-ing since the time of the previous Administration, and the matter is probably still in progress, for the provision of some substantial permanent vocational schools. I think one was to be sited in the Rathmines area and another was envisaged for somewhere on the North side. I cannot remember the exact locations.

For every place in third level education there are ten applicants. Perhaps we want to see only 40 architects qualified from technical schools this year, perhaps there would not be jobs for them if more than that qualified. However, I do not think that is true. I know that in the public service itself there are several vacancies for such people. There is a worry among parents and students that some form of class discrimination is exercised in the selection of students for this limited number of places. I have come across students who are convinced that the reason they did not succeed in getting one of these places is because of their address. There is a tendency sometimes in the private sector to discriminate against people with a particular address. I sincerely hope this does not apply here. I am satisfied it does not apply, but there is this fear. I should like an assurance from the Minister that there will be no discrimination on grounds of address and that each place will be filled on merit alone. I am asking the Minister to try to provide more places in the technical schools for people with four honours in the leaving certificate and also to ensure that every place that is available is filled on merit alone.

Dublin is expanding at an enormous rate. Fianna Fáil, before they left office, provided the necessary moneys for the expansion of school building activity, but it is the Minister who must decide priorities in regard to the spending of this money. I know he will be having demands from all over the country and, even though the allocation this year is up to £5 million, he will find that it will not meet everybody's demand. Indeed, the more the State provides the greater the demand becomes. I sympathise with the Minister on that score. As I said last Tuesday, I saw myself rushing from St. Stephen's Green to Marlborough St. pleading with the Minister not to sanction any more schools because the money just was not there and rushing down to Merrion St. to plead with the Minister for Finance for more money to enable me to build the schools that had already been sanctioned by the Minister for Education. This exercise of mine, I think, paid dividends and during that period a joint committee was set up between the Department of Education and the Office of Public Works. That committee met on alternate weeks or once a month. I should like to ask the Minister whether that committee is still in operation, whether it is proving successful and helpful to him and to Deputy Henry Kenny, who is now in charge of the Office of Public Works. There must be the maximum of co-operation between these two Departments if we are to have the maximum number of schools built and the most efficient spending of the money being made available to the Minister for this purpose.

The Minister referred to the reduction of class sizes. He also said he was lengthening the period of teacher training. I am concerned as to whether even this ratio of 1 to 45 mentioned by the Minister can be reached. Firstly there is a lack of accommodation, particularly in city areas. I think the Minister said that something like 30 per cent of the schools are over the ratio he is aiming at. Secondly, there is a lack of accommodation for teacher training. If there is to be an extra year's training this will slow down the availability of teachers. I was pleased to note recently that the number of people applying to take up training has increased considerably this year. No doubt this will be helpful to the Minister. I should like the Minister to let us know what progress has been made since he declared his intention in this matter some months ago. He spelt out here what he was hoping to achieve. We all wish him luck but perhaps he would report to the House in his reply on what progress has been made and whether he is satisfied that the objectives he has set can be achieved and how long he thinks it will take to achieve them.

I was very interested in and, in so far as I could, I diverted moneys towards the building of special schools for slow learners or slightly handicapped children. When the first couple of these special schools were opened on an experimental basis everybody agreed that they were a great success. We would like to see the Minister and the Government pressing ahead with the provision of schools of this sort at a much faster rate. They have been tried out, they have been proved successful, they are acceptable to the community as a whole and they are wanted by the people who have the misfortune to have a child who is not as bright as other children. It is very difficult for a child who is a slow learner in a fairly large class. I have a child who has bad sight. She was suffering from this bad sight for two or three years before we realised what was wrong. As she disimproved in her class grades she was moved further and further from the blackboard. Eventually she just could not see what was on the blackboard at all. When she came home she had nothing written on her copy book and did not know what her exercises were. The general practitioner did not find out what was wrong at first and we took her to a special St. John of God school. They found out the fault quickly and we got her glasses. She caught up quickly and got two honours in her intermediate certificate this year. I know the difficulties children can have. As their grades go down they are treated less favourably by the teacher. The teacher prefers to see the brilliant pupil and occasionally gets impatient with the slow learner. There are a few dedicated teachers who would probably devote their private time, without pay, to looking after such children but it is something that cannot be done in every case. For that reason I would urge the Minister to press for the provision of the special schools.

The Minister expressed interest in adult education. Adult education is now appreciated by many people. I know of wives who, when their families have grown up, find themselves less busy in the house and who have become depressed, unhappy and irritable because of lack of occupation. Many of these ladies have found great satisfaction in their mature years through the pursuit of knowledge. One of the greatest relaxations anyone can have is the pursuit of knowledge. People are interested in pursuing knowledge and get personal satisfaction and contentment from doing so. The Minister should examine the progress being made in adult education. Is there a big increase in the number of people availing of adult education?

Yesterday we had the good fortune to have a very instructive tour of the AnCO Training Centre at Ballyfermot. One man there who had been unhappy in his employment when he was earning £18 as a porter went to AnCO which is not the Minister's responsibility but is concerned with education—at the age of 30 and after a six-months' course he was employed in a new job at £28 per week. I expect that the Minister for Labour and the Minister for Education will work closely together on matters relating to AnCO.

There are not enough places in the vocational schools. We have career guidance officers in the vocational education committees. They could speak to people who have the qualifications necessary for entry to the vocational schools but who find that there are no vacancies in such schools. The career guidance officers might possibly be able to direct students with particular aptitudes to intensive training courses in particular skills under the auspices of AnCO. It is sad that people who are anxious to qualify for a particular profession are unable to do so because of lack of places in the vocational schools.

I understand that some courses in universities have a minimum qualification of six honours in the leaving certificate. In the vocational schools a student with four honours in the leaving certificate may find that he cannot get a place in the particular course in which he is interested. The competition for education has become severe. This is good because it means that the people now realise that in this age of technological advances the day of the unskilled worker is at an end. In the more advanced countries in Europe such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and Luxembourg the people will not accept unskilled manual-type jobs. They rely on immigrants from other countries to take these lowly-paid jobs. As greater political union follows our entry to the Common Market, I hope that Ireland will not be the poor relation going to Europe to take unskilled, menial jobs. I hope that it will be possible for this country to turn out well-educated young people who will be as skilled as any other young people in Europe. The Irish people have an ability to learn more than many of their European counterparts. We must provide them with the opportunities to develop whatever skills they have and to acquire whatever knowledge they can.

The Minister referred recently to pre-school care. The Minister is probably aware that such care is available in Ballyfermot. The Ballyfermot Community Association have a sub-committee on pre-school care. They operate from Presbytery No. 2, Blackditch Road, Ballyfermot, Dublin 10. They are a voluntary group. I was asking the Minister would he consider making grants to these people so that they could continue and expand their voluntary work. There is a centre at the Kylemore Avenue playground which is supervised by a Mrs. Durham. There is another at No. 5 Drumfinn Park which is supervised by a Sister Gertrude. There is another at Sevenoaks Convent, which is supervised by a Mrs. McKay. Perhaps inspectors from the Minister's Department could visit these centres to see the work being done there. Once these centres have been inspected I am convinced that the Minister will be sympathetic to them at least. I do not know whether the Minister has statutory power to give them assistance. If he has not such power, he might consider taking it. I can only speak for what is happening in my constituency. There are pre-school centres in the Drimnagh area. I am sure they also exist in other areas.

I would like to make a few remarks regarding the development of youth and sport to which the Minister referred. There is a figure of £40,000 in this year's Estimate under this heading. A Mr. J. Bruton has been put in charge of that section and will look after this particular money.

The Deputy is referring to the Parliamentary Secretary.

I thought that was an official. It was not clear that it was the Parliamentary Secretary. He will have a tough job. In regard to the £40,000 looking at the Book of Estimates as a whole on this question of sport and recreation, I and other former Ministers found that it was the area in which this Government decided to cut back expenditure on the Estimate. This is very serious. Education qualifies a person for a good job but that is not enough. We are not meant to live as machines. We must be able to enjoy life and the quality of life. The Parliamentary Secretary should make special efforts to ensure that all schools under the control of the Government are getting assistance to educate the children in their care in matters of conservation, recreation and wild life.

There is a scheme on the Continent where schools hire buses, with State subvention. These buses call to the schools two hours before the school day commences and take the children to a natural park or forest on a nature trail. The children are then brought back to the school where they get breakfast. Later in the day the pupils are asked to write an essay or there might be a discussion on the nature trip. There is a lack of appreciation in urban children of what nature has to offer by way of enjoyment. There are young people in Dublin who do not know how relaxing it can be to sit down on a fine day and listen to a river or a brook running by. That is a human experience which urban children do not think would give them any pleasure. Usually, they are much older when they try it and discover that they enjoy it. The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister should devote as much time as they possibly can to improve sporting facilities for the youth of today.

The National Library and the National College of Art are discussed every year on this Estimate. Proposals to house the National Library in Earlsfort Terrace and other places were investigated. The accommodation which the Office of Public Works could provide was not suitable to the Directors of the National Gallery and accommodation which the National Gallery wanted was unobtainable by the Office of Public Works. I understand that a new building under construction for the National College of Art will be ready in two or three years time. Perhaps the Minister will confirm this. The logical extension of the Library should be into the College of Art. It is rumoured that the Committee of Procedure and Privileges are looking at this building which may become vacant and could provide accommodation for Members of this House. The College of Science in Merrion Street will be available when an underground bridge is built across to Kildare Street. Even then there will be pressure for accommodation in so far as Members and staff of this House are concerned.

Negotiations were carried out between the developers in Kildare Street, Setanta, and the Office of Public Works with a view to building a bridge under Kildare Street. When this office block is finished in 18 months time the National Library will want storage space. A decision will have to be made very quickly on this because the people in the National Library want certain ventilation, air temperatures and so on, so that papers will not deteriorate while they are stored there. At the moment to get to certain places in the Library one must climb over books. They are stacked on the floor; there is no space. Each year the situation is worsening. Perhaps the Minister would outline a positive course of action. We will be happy to know that the space in the College of Art will be made available to the Library. If the College of Art is to be incorporated into the Houses of the Oireachtas where will the Library find space? The Taoiseach has expressed grave concern about this over the years. The Minister for Education should outline the positive steps which he proposes to take shortly.

The Minister complained that transport costs have risen by 8 per cent. The Minister should be reasonably content because this is less than the average national rate of inflation. According to available figures Ireland has still the second highest rate of inflation in Europe.

Can the Minister give an indication as to when legislation may be introduced for the establishment of a national council for educational awards? Like many of my colleagues, I am concerned with this. I hope this will not be a case of all promise and no performance.

Some people would think from the Minister's statement that he has been working wonders in the provision of new schools. I think the Minister will admit that with the exception of Dunquin no school has been completed or opened which had not been planned, built and the money provided by Fianna Fáil. In future years we shall be able to judge the Minister's performance much better, but this year he is working very largely on what had been prepared before he took office. For that reason it is difficult for anybody on this side of the House to be critical about the Estimate before us.

What we are concerned about are matters which might be called innovations by the Minister. It will be our duty to try to probe these and to press the Minister to give us as much detail as possible about them. Then if we approve of them we can press him to bring them into being expeditiously and if we disapprove of them we can press him to discard them as quickly as possible.

We have made our position in regard to Dunquin very clear and it is not for me to belabour the point now. Deputies from other areas are more qualified than I and, perhaps, they will deal with the matter. Our attitude is that it was giving in to a form of blackmail. No doubt there will be questions from Deputies on this school and I shall leave it at that.

There is one small point about the Minister's statement on which I should like an explanation. When reading it I noticed that the page number was there up to page 18 but that the numbering stopped thereafter. Perhaps there is a logical explanation for it: perhaps when the statement was being prepared certain changes had to be made, certain sections may have had to be inserted and, perhaps, there was not time to number the pages. The reason I make this point is that when one is going through the statement and making notes on it it facilitates one to be able to scribble down the page number. That has not been possible in this case and, perhaps, the Minister will give us an explanation.

In regard to the proposed partial decentralisation of his Department, can the Minister tell us which sections involving how many people are to be based in Athlone? Can he give any indication as to when the first move will take place? There is one big problem in going ahead with this matter. I understand the Civil Service have been canvassed and I know the previous Government were reasonably satisfied with a less ambitious plan of decentralisation than the original one—that partial decentralisation of his Department was feasible and that there were sufficient civil servants to volunteer to man the sections to be moved to Athlone.

The big problem about this move— the Minister may not be able to deal with it himself without consultation with the Minister for Local Government—is that many of the civil servants who have volunteered have houses in Dublin. Many of these may have mortgages attached to them—the civil servants may be in the process of buying them. If the mortgage crisis continues for much longer—there were some signs in England this week that it may ease there in the next few months—the Minister will find himself in a very difficult position because the civil servants concerned will not be able to sell their houses in Dublin because they are second-hand houses and the building societies cannot advance loans on second-hand houses as a result of a decision by the Minister for Local Government. Perhaps this move will not occur in the next 12 months—the Minister can indicate how soon when he is replying—and the Minister might tell us whether he has any power to assist these people, by making moneys available in some form, to sell their houses. If he has not such power, he might consult with the Minister for Local Government to try to make an exception for the benefit of these people.

As a Dublin man, I suggest there is far too much concentration of the population in greater Dublin. I agree there is very little the Government can do by way of making extra incentives available aimed at locating industry elsewhere. This has been only a partial success. Concentration of population in itself is an encouragement to industry to locate in certain areas because of greater availability of labour, and so forth. If industries come to an area, more people come and we have an everlasting spiral. Therefore, it would be a very good idea to proceed as quickly as possible with the decentralisation of this Department. I am sure that when the civil servants in the Department go to Athlone and settle there they will be quite happy and when they come back to visit Dublin they will be able to tell their friends here and it may tend to lead to further decentralisation and a further lessening of population concentration in greater Dublin.

I referred earlier to the pupil-teacher ratio but omitted to remark that the Minister had said his proposals would come into effect on 1st July. I do not think I should add to what I said already, except to ask the Minister what progress he thinks he is making. I also ask him to deal with the problems I forecast.

On page 15 of his brief the Minister referred to teachers trained in the UK. I know some teachers trained in England who had worked in Scotland, who came to Ireland on holidays and who became so enamoured with the place that they bought houses here and settled. Their problem was to get full-time employment here, the reason being they had not a working knowledge of the Irish language. The Minister has made some changes in policy in regard to the Irish language and I should like to know if teachers trained in the UK can get teaching work here without a knowledge of the Irish language. Is a knowledge of the Irish language still a condition of their employment here?

On the question of reformatories and industrial schools, the Minister seems to be proceeding with the plans of the previous administration. If he has added to those plans, he might let us know. Most of the plans for changes and reforms were laid down by Fianna Fáil and it is not for me to criticise them.

The Sunday World may be disappointed to learn that I made my first notes on this Estimate on Tuesday. They may be disappointed to hear that what I am saying now is the result of all my own work. I am sure Mr. Arnold of Independent Newspapers will be disappointed that I have not provided readymade answers for the Minister for some of the problems I have asked him to deal with. I think this Minister realises that whatever decisions are to be made on education are to be his decisions.

The Government realise that they are in government just as we realise we are in Opposition but the only people who do not seem to realise that are the gentlemen who sit behind you, Sir. We intend formulating detailed policy in relation to all aspects of education and we shall re-examine our previous thinking in this regard. However, it is not likely that we will make known full details of our thinking on these matters until such time as an election is in the offing although we will put forward the broad outlines of our policy before then. It is not the task of the Opposition to provide solutions but if we agree with the Government's suggestions we will support them wholeheartedly and we will not be reluctant to disagree with them where we think this is the correct course for us to take. No Government can function properly unless the Opposition are functioning also. This is the whole principle of democracy and there are not a great number of democracies in the world. There are only about 20 or so out of the total membership of the UN.

Whatever difficulties the Minister may experience from now on will be of his own making and if he creates trouble for himself we will not make matters any easier for him. The Opposition are fulfilling their duty in drawing the Government's attention to such serious situations as the power crisis, the hospitals crisis and the docks crisis and we will not hesitate to draw attention to problems concerning teachers or student unions. The present art school dispute is a case in point. In all of these matters we will not hesitate to voice our criticism in an orderly way in this House. I trust that the Minister will deal with the matters that I have raised when he is replying. I do not expect that he will take the line of some other Ministers who, when asked questions, ask us in turn why we did not deal with the matters concerned while we were in Government. Responsibility rests with the Government and in our days in office the then Opposition were not slow to criticise us where they considered such criticism to be justified.

At this stage of the closing of the debate on this excellent document presented to us by the Minister, there is little that has not been said already in relation to it. It must be gratifying to the Minister to know that such keen interest has been taken in the Estimate. There are a few points I wish to add and I shall endeavour not to repeat what has been said already by other speakers.

I should like to draw attention to a report issued recently by UNESCO which contains recommendations on school planning in Ireland at primary and post primary levels. It appears that three areas were selected among the member states of the UN for this project. These were in Africa, Germany and Ireland. The area selected in Ireland was Sligo and that is why I had a particular interest in the report. The areas were selected for the purpose of a careful and detailed study so that the findings could be used as guidelines in other member states. The findings, as published recently, make very disturbing reading for parents, teachers and for religious orders not only in County Sligo but in all of rural Ireland because should the recommendations be implemented in County Sligo it is only logical to assume that they would be implemented also in other counties.

The investigations began in 1970 and the report states clearly that the studies were carried out with the close co-operation of the national authorities. In so far as this refers to Ireland, I take it that the national authority referred to were the Government of the day. Consequently, the previous Government cannot be exonorated from the drastic implications of the report since they must reflect the thinking of the then Minister for Education. Therefore, we can assume that if Fianna Fáil had remained in office the recommendations of this report would be implemented by the date mentioned therein.

The consequences for Sligo would have been that 52 primary schools out of a total of 105 would be either closed or amalgamated. That represents almost 50 per cent. This is a damning indictment of a Government which, apparently, acquiesced in the project without consultation with anyone concerned. I have here a quotation from the report which shows clearly the extent to which Sligo has been neglected in the past in so far as education is concerned. I will quote from an extract of the report published in The Irish Times of October 22, 1973:

The existence at a national level of regulations governing the operating standards of schools is no indication of the extent to which these are fulfilled,...

Of the 107 primary schools in Sligo...

I mentioned 105 at the beginning but two were closed between the time the investigations began and the report was published. The quotation continues:

...76 did not satisfy the Department of Education's standards. The network of post-primary schools also fell short of the official regulations. Over-all, it is the present structure of both school networks that is largely responsible for the widespread existence of sub-standard premises, poor maintenance, under-utilisation of accommodation, overcrowding and inefficient use of teachers.

It will be noted from that that 76 primary schools out of a total of 107 did not comply with the Department of Education standards. Whose fault is that?

In the post-primary field there are 16 such schools in Sligo—eight secondary, seven vocational and one comprehensive. This report recommends the closure of five of these schools. It is sad but interesting to note that, of the five, three are convent schools: Enniscrone, Ballisodare and Benada Abbey. Previously the convent school at Gurteen was amalgamated but, according to this report, the vocational school there is to go. This will mean that four convent schools that catered for secondary education down the years will no longer be used for that purpose.

I was always an admirer of the work done by religious orders, brothers and nuns, and it saddens me to see them being pushed into the background. A tremendous debt of gratitude is due to them because they kept the torch of learning burning long before there were other post-primary schools there in operation in this country. Their contribution towards education is praiseworthy and it should not be forgotten. If and when changes are being made in our post-primary education system the contribution of religious orders should not be forgotten.

Six years ago in this House I mentioned that the thin edge of the wedge was being put in against religious orders in this country. I was the first Deputy to draw attention to this fact. I mentioned then that this would demote or push them to one side. The then Taoiseach thought fit to state publicly at a meeting in Sligo town that this was not correct, but I am afraid all the indications today are that my forecast of six years ago is coming true. I am still hopeful that it will not come true.

I should now like to refer to the closing of schools, and in doing so I want to be realistic about the matter. There was no future for one-teacher schools except in exceptional circumstances. It was not fair to either the teacher or the pupils. In this regard a deep debt of gratitude is due to the teachers who taught in one-teacher schools, usually in remote areas. The closure of two-teacher schools is a different matter. Two-teacher schools have done and are continuing to do tremendous work. They have achieved excellent results in the past and are still doing so at present.

Pupils going from such schools to post primary schools are able to hold their own with pupils who attended multi-teacher schools. In some cases they have proved even better. I was pleased with the Minister's announcement that there will be no blanket closing of two-teacher schools in future. If the closing of any of these two-teacher schools is inevitable there will be consultations between the parents, teachers and managers. This is a development I welcome. It has happened to a limited extent in the past, but I am hopeful that it will be done in all cases in the future because I am sure the Minister appreciates the pride and sentiment a local community has in its local school.

It is very difficult for people to break with tradition. Even the UNESCO report infers that the permanent closing of a rural school is a sign of a disintegrating society. We must not give the parents the impression that we are pushing this in. There should be dialogue and consultation with them because tradition dies hard, especially in rural areas.

Again in relation to the UNESCO report, I understand that a further report will be issued dealing with the obstacles towards implementation of the suggestions in it. However, in the meantime I ask the Minister not to be influenced by the report, and certainly not to accept it in its entirely. There are some good suggestions in the report but there are things in it which are objectionable to the people in my county. I should like the Minister, in his reply, to tell us of his reaction to this report.

I wish to refer now to the closing of the Kiltyclogher Vocational School. I am aware that a decision has been made in this regard. One of the reasons I wish to refer to the closing of this school is that I taught in the vicinity of Kiltyclogher for some years. Many meetings were held there in relation to its closing but I was unable to attend them due to the fact that I was in hospital. I taught some of the parents whose children attended that school and for that reason I regretted the passing of that school.

As the Minister is aware this school which is situated near the Border, was wrecked by a bomb explosion. Since that explosion the local hall was also wrecked by a bomb. I am hopeful that something will be done by the Minister's Department to help the people of that village. It has been suggested to me that a youth club should be built on the site of the school. If that is done I feel sure that the Minister, through his Parliamentary Secretary, will make a grant available towards the cost of providing the necessary equipment. Such a decision would be an indication to the people of the village that the Department, and the Minister, care.

We come now to the question of school transport, a matter which has been well covered in the Minister's speech. It really saddens me to see buses passing by on a winter's morning with vacant seats in them, splashing children walking along the road with mud and water, all because of some silly regulation which prevents them getting on those buses. I refer mainly to children living convenient to the bus route who could congregate at the assembly points so that there would be no extra cost involved. I do not ask the Minister to break the regulation, but I would ask him to consider whether it can be altered so that children who live along the bus route can get tickets. This would be of great advantage, particularly in the winter time, because the weather in the West of Ireland at that time has to be experienced to be believed. To go back to the UNESCO report, it states:

The number of pupils living more than three miles away from the nearest school varies between 30 per cent in some schools to 96 per cent in other schools.

That gives an idea as to why we western Deputies are so keen about this transport question. There is also the question of catchment areas. The regulation in respect of transport sails very close to the wind in infringing the rights of parents as to what school their children should go to. There is an enticement there. The regulations really mean that if the children go to school A they will get free transport; if they go to the school the parents want, school B, they will not get free transport. The cases of those children living on the fringes of the catchment areas should be considered on their merits. Furthermore, if a medical certificate is produced, even if the child does not fulfil the regulations, there should be no hesitation in awarding that child a bus ticket.

I should like to deal now with sub-standard schools, and according to the report which I have read there are a fair number of them in my county. I should say, in fairness, that much has been done in recent years with school buildings, but a great deal remains to be done. I take one case which is urgent, that of Monasteraden National School. It will show the Minister what can happen even with the best intentions. A new school was sanctioned here. Tenders were invited, but the Office of Public Works decided that they were all too high. After some time it was decided to readvertise. The tenders were supposed to be in a month ago. I hope no further delay will take place on this, because with the cost of material and labour going up and with the months that have elapsed between the first tenders for the school and the second ones, it is probable that the cost will be even higher the second time. The present school is rat-infested and children are being taught there under terrible conditions. The accumulation of substandard schools in some areas such as mine is due to neglect down the years, and when the job was tackled it was too big to get through in a hurry. I am sure the Minister appreciates that children come to the primary school at a tender and impressionable age and it is very difficult to teach them to appreciate the beauties of nature or of their environment if they are brought up in such an atmosphere of squalor and filth as I have seen in some schools in the West of Ireland.

If education is to be continuously and harmoniously developed, as mentioned by the Minister, there should be co-ordination between the curriculum in the primary school and that in the post-primary school. This of course is not happening. The new curriculum in the primary school is child-centred, while the curriculum in the post-primary school is examination-orientated. The sooner liaison takes place in regard to the curricula in primary and post primary schools the better.

A change in the inspectoral system would not be out of place either. Teachers are still being assessed on what the children know at a particular time. It is like an assembly line. Everything must be done at a certain time. This is not as it should be.

The examination format in some primary schools should have been discontinued long ago. It does not help.

The Minister's reference to improving the lot of the socially and culturally deprived child is very commendable as is his indication that it is proposed to increase the grant for the supply of books to necessitous children.

We are still without remedial teachers in primary and post primary schools. Remedial teachers are required for the purpose of helping slow learners. Without the aid of such teachers there cannot be proper and successful teaching. If a child who is culturally deprived goes into a post primary school he cannot make progress there. It is waste of time to put before him the plays of Shakespeare. Remedial teachers are required at primary and post primary level.

I should like to compliment the Minister and to wish him the very best luck in his office. He is tackling his job with courage and initiative.

Could we have a quorum, please?

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I suppose I should begin by complimenting Deputy Lemass on getting me an audience. My contribution will not contain any notable feature. I have no particular qualification to speak on the Department of Education. I avail of the opportunity afforded by the Estimate to bring before the House some points of view of my constituents, ordinary people, and to express some of the grievances they have which they feel should be ventilated in the House or directly to the Minister. I have communicated with the Minister on most of the points that I am about to raise and got the usual acknowledgment but I do not know that anything has been done.

In particular I want to raise with the Minister the question of the premed. dentistry course for students in University College, Cork. As I understand, some 19 students were taken into the class and, having passed the examination and, in one case at least, having paid £600 for the year, they were told that there were only 10 places and that nine of the students would have to take up dairy science or some other subject or that they could seek places in Galway, Birmingham, Glasgow or some other university. The parents of the student I have in mind tried all of these places, to no avail. There was no place. This is wrong.

I understand that it is customary not only in dentistry but in other subjects that students may be taken in and fees are paid and when the students have passed the qualifying examination they are told there is no place for them. In my view that represents an injustice. Whether the Minister has direct responsibility or not, as Minister for Education it would be up to him to see to it that this would not occur. The parents in the case that I speak of would be quite happy if the student who could not get a place this year would be given an undertaking that she would have priority next year in getting a place in the class. That is not usually done but I suggest that in all walks of life a person who has passed an examination and has had to wait a year should get a place the following year. This is one of the matters about which I have communicated with the Minister and, as I have said, got an acknowledgement but I do not know what has happened or if anything will happen. I would like the Minister to see if any solution can be found particularly in relation to their having first preference next year.

The second matter in which I am interested is a matter in which my constituents are also interested and one in which they feel aggrieved. On the fringe of the Gaeltacht area in Ring, in the Old Parish area, there are some 24 secondary school pupils; some are going to the Christian Brothers, some to the Mercy Convent and a number to the vocational school. They have to walk, thumb a lift or cycle to school in Dungarvan which is six or eight miles distant. They are not permitted to have a bus because there is a private all-Irish school in Ring. It is the parents view that an academic training through Irish is not what they believe will profit their children and they are anxious that their children should get their educational qualifications through the medium of their home language which is English.

I have communicated with the Minister in connection with this matter and the Minister said he would like to wait until a meeting was arranged between the Irish college and the representatives of the vocational committee. This was approximately last May. As a member of the vocational committee I raised the matter and I have been endeavouring to get the representatives of the Irish college to meet the vocational committee to see if they can iron out the problem. The Irish college representatives have not met us yet and, so far as I know, they have no intention of meeting the committee.

I was accused of seeking to deprive the Irish college of pupils. That is absolutely wrong. None of these pupils would be attending the Irish College. None of them is attending the Irish college. There was absolutely no intention on my part to deprive the Irish college of any student. It would have been a physical impossibility anyway. All I was doing was endeavouring to see that the children of the people concerned would get an opportunity of attending the schools of their choice.

The Minister should try to find a solution. Should the representatives of the Irish college keep on delaying, thereby depriving these 24 children of facilities given to secondary school pupils all over the country, then I urge that they not be allowed to deprive these children of that facility by their abstaining from meeting the members of the vocational committee. The Minister should step in and decide whether or not these pupils are entitled to a bus to take them to the schools of their parents' choice. Most of them are attending the vocational school as the parents believe this is the education which will best fit their children for life later on as against the academic education given in the Gaelic language. I am not arguing that the education in the all-Irish school is not as good, possibly better, than the children would get elsewhere——

Much better. It is a very good school.

——to fit them for the roles they will play later in life. The Minister has a responsibility and he should give these children an equal chance with their contemporaries throughout the country.

I have had complaints from ordinary working men and their wives about the cost of books. Where two or three children are attending a secondary school the cost of books is enormous. Some of these books cost £2.50 and £3 each. If these people could prove they were not able to provide the books they would get assistance. The criterion in my area is the medical card. I do not believe this is the right way to approach the matter. In England, as most people know, school books at all levels— pencils, jotters and all the essential paraphernalia—are provided free. The materials essential to educate our children should be provided by the State. It might mean a considerable increase in the Estimate for the Department of Education but, remembering the extent to which we have gone to provide free transport and so forth, this further step is absolutely essential.

I raise these three matters because I was asked to do so by my constituents. I have no particular qualifications, as I said, to discuss education and the method of educating our children and I feel a little ashamed standing up here in this debate, having listened to so many qualified teachers, both secondary and primary, speak on this Education Estimate. However, as an ordinary man, it is my responsibility to put forward the views of my constituents to the Minister.

Finally, on behalf of my trade union movement I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the picket on the College of Art for the past four months. I know this is not his responsibility and he has, perhaps, no right to intervene, but I would ask him to use his good offices to see if some solution cannot be found to resolve whatever difficulty exists between the two trade unions involved.

This is the first opportunity I have had to speak on the subject of education since the Minister was appointed. I congratulate him on his appointment. It is generally agreed that he has brought to education a new look. I trust that he will continue as he has been going. He has demonstrated his enormous capacity for work and his knowledge and grasp of the educational system. There was a great deal of talk up and down the country for many years but nothing practical was done. Education is now most important and it is heartening to have a man like the present Minister at the helm. I am glad the Taoiseach selected a County Dublin man because I have been a member of the vocational education committee in the county and I have also been on other committees dealing with education. I have the impression that there was a great reluctance on the part of the Department of Education to give County Dublin its due. I would urge the Minister to take notice of what is happening in County Dublin. He represents most of it as a Deputy in this House. I am sure he knows all the county. He is a teacher. Unfortunately he never had the opportunity of serving on the vocational education committee. If he had, he would have had an insight into the activities and the difficulties of that body. I would urge him to have a good look at the rating of the vocational education committee in the county. For a number of years they have been seeking approval for the upgrading of their educational scheme. As regards student numbers, teaching services, school buildings, post primary and adult education facilities generally it is at least comparable to schemes in category 2 and yet it is rated with the smallest county scheme. We in the VEC have been seeking departmental approval for many years and we have come up against a stone wall all the time. I am sure that now we have a new Minister we will have a new approach.

The committee's administrative area is the most rapidly developing area in the country. The census returns for the period 1966-1971 show that well over 50 per cent of the national population increase took place in the County Dublin area. I am saying this but I know I do not have to tell the Minister. He is quite well aware of this tremendous increase in population and activity of the VEC.

May I outline some of what we have on hand at the moment? It is proposed to build new schools at Swords—this is well under way—at Lucan, and at Clondalkin. These are 800 pupil schools for boys and girls. There is also a new school proposed for Balbriggan. We have nine existing schools in the county for day pupils. The committee have put a tremendous amount of effort into extending facilities for adult education. We also have the burden of community schools at Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Malahide, Cabinteely and Ballinteer. The schools at Tallaght and Blanchardstown have now started, the other three are promised and we are very likely to have more. It is strongly considered that a community school should be placed in the Ballyboden area and in Sandyford. I am sure we will have more for Tallaght and Blanchardstown as the towns expand. This is a burden on the VEC because we have not yet a structure in which the community schools can operate independently. To operate independently it is important that the Minister should have a good look at what has happened in this development in the last couple of years. The community schools got off to a very bad start. This was due principally to the handling by the Department and the previous Minister.

They would not have started at all but for him, would they?

It is unfortunate that they got away to this very bad start. I read the previous Minister's contribution to this debate and it appeared to me that he was congratulating himself on the standing and the acceptance of the community schools today.

He deserves congratulations.

I should like to say to the Minister who is responsible for them now not to be too sure that community schools have been accepted because they are still under test and only by results will they be accepted. I would urge him to pay attention to the co-operation the Department are willing to give to the various school boards. I serve on the community school board at Tallaght. The co-operation of the Department in starting this community school left much to be desired. It is important that these new schools give a good impression, particularly in County Dublin, because they are new and the people there are new. It is not a knit community where there can be healthy discussion. The position is better in more rural areas where the community is settled. There the changes from one educational system to another or from one school to another can be discussed and there is the co-operation of the various school bodies. But this is a new area where a new school is being set up among people who have just moved in and where in many instances next neighbours do not know each other. The school will be a very important centre and the Department of Education cannot give too much assistance to school boards in getting such schools started.

We have asked the Department to sanction the appointment of a social worker in Tallaght. While they have not yet made a decision, it is so long since we made the request it would appear that they are reluctant to sanction the appointment. Is it possible for the Minister to give us a social worker who would be attached to the Community School in Tallaght? The Minister may be reluctant to do so because if he sanctioned the appointment of a social worker for Tallaght he would be faced with requests for social workers for schools all over the country. There is not the same need for social workers in other areas. People are moving into Tallaght. They do not know their neighbours.

That is true of many suburbs.

It is not as easy to set up a community school in Tallaght as it would be in an area with a settled community. A social worker would be of tremendous assistance. The principal of the school is expected to inquire into the income and social standing of the families in trying to settle problems connected with the free book scheme. The principal of any community school who is trying to make an impression in an area such as Tallaght should not be asked to decide whether particular children are entitled to free books. That is one of the reasons why I ask the Minister to sanction the appointment of a social worker. It is important that the home of each pupil should be visited. In this way the school authorities will know something about the home background of each child. The school will have a better opportunity of making a favourable impression on the community.

Much hard work is necessary before community schools will be accepted by the people. I am delighted to learn that An Comhairle le Leas Óige have now decided to extend their services to county Dublin. We were waiting for the sanction of Dublin County Council in this matter. The vocational education committee have for years been inviting this body to extend into the county where there is a great need for their services. I welcome the recent decision.

I do not know how the problem of providing schools in fast-developing areas can be tackled. I have been present at discussions regarding the provision of schools and in particular the provision of school sites. The Minister should examine this problem urgently. In Tallaght all the schools are packed to capacity. All the services provided at Tallaght need to be extended rapidly in order to serve the fast-growing population. A new school will be opened in Tallaght within the next few months.

School managers seem to have great difficulty in acquiring sites. I have never heard of a compulsory purchase order on a school site but I understand that there is legislation covering such orders. Somebody must assist the school managers in regard to the provision of school sites. Apart altogether from the cost it is difficult for school managers to approach landowners, developers or even speculators who are working on the ground on which the school should be located. Often a school is wrongly sited because the manager has been unable to procure the site which would be most advantageous to the community.

I have had discussions recently with managers and developers in Tallaght. Some developers were prepared to use a school site despite the fact that nothing should be built on such site except a school. The developers knew that, and knew about the zoning, but were still reluctant to part with the school site to enable the school manager to have a school built. This is a deplorable situation. It is particularly deplorable in Tallaght where a new town is being built. We cannot expect a school manager to build a school unless he has possession of the site. The Minister should examine this problem which faces every school manager in developing areas of the county.

My information is that the Department do not enter into the arrangements, other than to approve of the siting of a school, until the manager is in possession of the actual site. This is wrong. The most important part of building a school is to have possession of the site. If the school manager is inhibited in any way this will reflect on the future attendance and education of many generations of children. The most important problem facing primary education in County Dublin is the provision of properly-sited schools. The school managers should have some financial assistance in procuring sites.

In developing areas it is difficult to decide on suitable prices. Land in Tallaght is worth from £4,000 to £8,000 an acre. The school manager should not be expected to provide money to buy the site for a school in an area where money is very scarce. The vast majority of the children are from families which have just moved into the area. Their parents have expended the largest amount of money they would ever spend in any one year of their lifetime in purchasing and furnishing a house. This makes a school manager's task more difficult than if it were a settled area. The Minister has many problems but I would be neglecting my responsibilities as an elected representative for this developing area if I were not to mention this very pressing problem.

The National Museum has been discussed year after year on the debate on the Estimate for Education. I visit the museum two or three times a year. Last year I brought a large class of Indian students there. I was shocked to note that the museum had deteriorated to such a great extent. Rooms which I had visited the previous year were closed. I do not know why. The museum is being neglected. It is at the bottom of the list of jobs to be done by the Department of Education. If the Minister cannot make the necessary improvements he should transfer authority for it to another Department where it will get better attention.

I have read the report submitted to the Minister's predecessor in 1969 and so far not one thing has been done. I would be slow to place the blame for that on the former Minister. As I have said, it may be that the respon sibility is with the wrong Department. If it is, the Minister for Education should take steps to change the situation. I do not know under what Department one could put it, but it is not getting the attention it deserves under the Department of Education.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. We were colleagues in the last Dáil and I hope we shall remain colleagues even though the division of politics, clash and counterclash, often sunder friendships. As H.G. Wells said, the path to social progress is often strewn with the corpses of established friendships. I hope this will not apply here.

It is a difficult task to be an educator. I listened to Deputy McMahon and Deputy Kyne. Deputy Kyne was inclined to be apologetic for speaking on education. He should not, because we all have a role to play in education. The subject of education is more widespread than it used to be. Adult education is as important as education for the young. We must always speak in the context of what it is possible to achieve inside the voted moneys which are under scrutiny every year. We must consider education at primary, post primary and third levels. We must bear in mind that we have joined a larger community than we were accustomed to. In the past, because of the fact that we were inclined to be in the shadow of our larger neighbour, some of the ideas there were uppermost in the minds of people here as regards education.

We have been in this island since 6000 BC. While on an historical tour to Ballintubber Abbey it was forcibly brought home to me how ancient this country of ours really is. It is on this aspect of education that one begins to think in depth of the history of Ireland, what can be done and what we are capable of doing to promote and upgrade such education to higher standards and to get the people in general thinking in terms of our heritage.

I do not agree we should confine our remarks on the Education Vote merely to primary and post primary education or even to third level, university, education. We must take ourselves out of those institutions and into the field, as it were. If one is reared in a rural environment one has something to learn every day from nature and this is where I agree with Deputy McMahon when he spoke about our neglect of the National Museum. We have had neglect, perforce so, because, as I have had to say every year, we have had to try to apportion the national income towards the greater need, and unfortunately we have not a reservoir of rich people in the country who would endow a unit such as the National Museum. Neither do we get many bequests in this way. That is a pity.

While on the subject of the National Museum and seeing that we have in our hands a problem of leisure, as it were, a problem of trying to inculcate in our children a love of things past, of history, and in this way hope they will have a love of future things as well because the future is made in the past, when we come to speak in terms of a National Museum it is a pity we have not in every Vote a much more enlarged subhead each year towards extending and helping the museum. I understand there is a move in this matter. It is to be welcomed and I would hope that all of us in the community will laud and help this move.

Through the years we have had various reports. Speaking on another subject last night I remarked that the funny thing is that we have had reports on the museum dating back to 1927, but unfortunately we are inclined to put those reports on the shelf and forget about them. We have enough knowledge to know what to do if we get money to spend on the National Museum. In this context I am not referring to the National Museum only as a single unit—I hope to come back to it in the course of my contribution—but we should also aim to carry the threads of the museum throughout the country into museums in the towns and indeed into every parish. There has been a move in that direction in the past few years which has been highly appreciated.

We should also try to inculcate a better understanding of the environment in general in the young through this medium. Briefly on that point, I would say the destruction of flora, fauna and our natural assets in general is proceeding at a very fast pace, and it is up to us, not alone as Members of this House but of local authorities and subsidiary bodies of county councils, to come out in every way in favour of any move that would upgrade thinking in this matter.

I said earlier we are living in an age of what we might call affluence. Affluence can bring its own problems and it has done so in many other countries. I do not want to go into various detailed aspects of such problems but I would emphasise that we should be careful here at this stage, in our aim to combat the worst aspects of those problems which are affecting other countries that are emerging into affluence, to try to avoid those dreadful pitfalls. It is like preventive medicine: we should try to take measures to see to it that those problems do not arise.

One needs leisure to take an interest in a museum and in the objects displayed there. As I have said, we have more leisure now, but the point is: what are we doing with it? Are the "singing pubs" to be the centrepoint of the whole of our leisure, is bingo to be the beginning and the end of our leisure hours and is the cinema to be an adjunct to those two places? I do not think so, but when we blame the youth in matters of education it is the adults who deserve the blame. It is we who are to blame, not the youth. Like every other story, youth is subject to all sorts of criticism and all sorts of commercial and business enterprises are looking to the youth. It is in matters of this kind that we can learn something from Europe and from the leisure programmes they have there.

I will not develop this subject because strictly it is not a matter for the Minister for Education who has a Parliamentary Secretary to deal with this. At the same time I should like to say that we could use our museums to much more advantage. A museum is not a "9 to 5" institution. I put this matter to the Minister because I have raised it with his predecessors who, I am afraid, fell in line with Civil Service ideas. I do not blame the Civil Service. I blame the House here, because it has the power. If we go to Europe we shall soon see that if we want to combat the worst aspects of affluence we can do so only through our institutions, and in this context the National Museum and its adjuncts, its extensions throughout the country, are very important places through which to impress the young, first, of our long history; secondly, we should try to protect that history and to ensure that no elements would be introduced which would be injurious to our history of relics, of monuments and the various other objects that are displayed in our museums and which give us an idea of the form of life in the past. We should endeavour in particular to encourage our young people to visit such places as museums during their leisure time so that they might have a greater respect for the past and, maybe, greater respect for their elders.

Institutions such as the National Museum or the small museums to be found in country towns do not develop overnight. We should endeavour to have included in the Vote each year an allocation for the upgrading of the National Museum and of the development of the smaller units throughout the country. Our heritage, too, is an important aspect in the context of North/South relations, because we could treat this heritage in a broad fashion. I suggest that the portfolio of the Parliamentary Secretary be extended to include the field of museum pieces and of fine arts.

Our National Gallery houses some very fine paintings and there are some fine schools of painting there also. Unfortunately up to a few years ago it was not possible to hang many of the paintings because of lack of space but the building of the extension has resulted in the curator being able to arrange a more extensive display. The National Gallery could be a place for extending the education of our children. George Bernard Shaw claimed to have been educated solely there and he was no mean exponent of the creative arts. His thanks to the National Gallery was to make his bequest in their favour. Some years ago when the late Dr. Tom Greevy was curator of the gallery I often asked him at sittings of the Public Accounts Committee to tell us what new purchases had been made and also what bequests had been made to the gallery. On one occasion I was castigated by one of my senior colleagues for initiating a long discussion on the matter. George Bernard Shaw's bequest highlighted our efforts in the field of the preservation and displaying of works of art. Having seen Pygmalion I was surprised to find later that the Kensington Opera Company could have been so successful in their operatic production of the play.

There is no reason that I can think of why the National Gallery should not remain open until midnight. It would be a better place than cinemas, for instance, to which to take our children, although I might add that I have nothing against cinemas. However, it would be a pity if the idea should spread in Europe or elsewhere that we are preoccupied with shallow pleasure. That type of pleasure should be left aside for a while and we should concentrate on such forms of recreation as an appreciation of art. A visit to the National Gallery, to the National Museum or to the Folk Museum is always very worthwhile and it would be much more satisfying than spending one's evening at a bingo or a cabaret session. If we are to combat the trend towards shallow recreation it must be done through our institutions, through our Ministers as leaders of thought. It has been said, though, that Parliament is losing its image and is leading from behind. If that is the case we must take the blame. Perhaps the criticism is unjustified but it has been made. I suggest, too, that we take a broader view of our Folk Museum and that we have a planned leisure programme in this regard. A lead must come from the parents, we cannot expect it to come from the children. I hope the children will be very interested in this matter.

Outside of sport we have a vast area where we can spend our leisure time. When I spoke about early closures I was not blaming the personnel in the museum, the library or elsewhere, or the civil servants. This House is to blame because many people have provided us with good material on which to base an opinion. Recently the Institute of Professional Civil Servants issued a special report on the National Museum. The first of such reports was issued in 1927 and a second was issued in 1949 by Professor Quane. Another such report was issued by Dr. Tom Bodkin. We cannot say that we are short of material or of a lead. We have plenty of information so why not evaluate it and make the best use of it according to our means? We should vote some money each year to the relevant sub-head. In my view this would be money well spent.

Down the years I felt that too much was expected of our teachers. We always expected too much of our teachers in all grades, from primary to third level education. It is rare enough now that one will find parents at home at night to give children a lead on their lessons. We expect it all to be loaded on to the school floor. This is not a fair attitude. Teachers have a certain role to play and they do their best to fulfil this but parents are inclined to load too much on to them. All parents are inclined to fix on the shoulders of teachers a responsibility which is not theirs. Too often we hear the cry: "Why is it not taught at school?" The countercry is: "Why is it not taught at home on the hearth-stone?" There is no one at home to teach the children because the parents go out together at night or, if they do not go out, they look at television, an excellent media if used for educational purposes but, unfortunately, it is not.

Parents should take all the weight they can off the school floor. They should have a little more charity towards the teaching profession and allow teachers to do their own work. If they did that the teachers would be in a position to devote more attention to the task they were engaged for. Each night parents should spend some time with their children assisting them with their lessons. It should be remembered that there are many more outside influences bearing down on children today than there were hitherto. In my childhood one was able to do one's lessons without interruption apart from the occasional céilí. At that time one had full scope to try to assimilate the knowledge handed out by the teacher. However, this is no longer the case. There are too many other things to distract the child's mind. Parents should take steps to see to it that this does not happen.

This fact has something to do with the number of delinquents produced. People are out too often and there is no philosophy regarding the child's mind. There is no one to tell mythological stories to children; no one has time to indulge in mythology. Now that towns are growing to undue proportions we should reflect and have some regard for mythology as a subject because it has a place in education.

One of the things I do not like when people are talking about the ways of the young is that all the blame is placed on the shoulders of the young. Parents should shoulder their share of the blame. If they did they would have a hefty load to carry. Use should be made of our institutions; they should be freed because, after all, they are not nine to five establishments. If we wish to counteract the worst influences of news, et cetera we will have to do this.

I have often been taken aback when looking at the products of universities. I often wonder what is happening there but I have a strong suspicion that the same trend is inherent in the system from the primary school up and that it can be traced to the hearth-stone. Universities and teachers are blamed for offenders, delinquents and drop-outs, but in my view parental control in the early years regulates the drop-out rate. We all think that we can waltz to our favourite recreation centre at night and leave our children to cope for themselves. This should not be the position. Animals or birds will not do that with their young and in this regard we could learn something from them. Animals and birds wait and bring their young to an adult stage before they abandon them.

In my view we are abandoning our children at a tender age and this is why we have a high rate of disappointment later. I should like to appeal to the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary and the officials of the Department of Education, to come down on this aspect of life and talk more about it. The bishops, who purport to be leaders of thought, are talking about this matter at present but many of them escape or get outside of this subject. We are supposed to be leaders of thought, but instead of dealing with abstract matters it would be more pertinent to deal with matters on the ground, matters which affect us as educators and which will affect our universities for years to come.

Have we not reached a great degree of intolerance and violence when, on the invitation of the seniors of the university, a person cannot speak in almost any of them today without having a hurley in his hand or some other implement. Have we not come to a nice pass in third level education when students will set upon the speaker and manhandle him if they can.

Only a minority.

It is a fairly sizeable minority. I have been present at those gatherings and I know the degree of intolerance there. I would hope they would cut it out if they want to retain the respect of those who are, in effect, paying for them, providing the institutions for them and so on. I would hope also that, if they do not cut it out, the mentors in these universities will be more selective about those they take in. If that kind of conduct is tolerated we shall lose respect for ourselves and we certainly cannot hope to retain respect in Europe.

I shall wind up by wishing the Minister success in his role as Minister for Education, which is a difficult one in present circumstances. I hope he will be able to make his mark as head of the profession in which he started. If we see that he is going in the right direction we shall try to speed him on his way.

In commencing my reply to this debate I wish to express my appreciation of the kind words of welcome to the office of Minister for Education offered to me by Members on both sides of the House. To the few who, in the course of the debate, thought I was not fit for the office, all I shall say is, perhaps time will tell. May I, before I begin my reply, take the opportunity of paying tribute to the retired Secretary of the Department of Education, Mr. Seán Mac Gearailt. Mr. Mac Gearailt spent the bulk of his official life in the Department and had acquired an unrivalled experience of all aspects of our educational problems. Deputies who had come in contact with him through the Public Accounts Committee and, in other spheres, will have appreciated what an acute perception he brought to bear on these problems and how, while coping with the almost infinite detail, he could still preserve a clear view of the main lines of policy. I wish him many years of continued good health to enjoy his retirement.

I was struck by the high quality of the contributions made to this debate by Deputies on all sides. Perhaps it would be invidious to single out individuals and, on reflection, I shall refrain from doing so. However, some Deputies asked me to display a degree of political ecumenism, if I could so describe it, which is not demanded of any other Minister whose Estimate debate I have listened to. I do not think the Deputies opposite should expect me to do what no other Minister is expected to do, that is, to relate back all existing schemes to the previous Administration.

In the course of this debate I tried to be present for the contributions of every Deputy who spoke and was only absent for meals, for Cabinet meetings which I had to attend or for urgent consultations with interests outside the House, which interests made particular efforts to see me. I was particularly glad to note the indications of general support, again of both sides of the House, in regard to many of our educational objectives. It is of course true that there is a broad measure of agreement among us all on many objectives. Where we part company is in the policies which we are prepared to implement towards the attainment of our objectives, more particularly in the way in which we on this side of the House think it appropriate to carry out those policies.

I have been accused in this debate of not having stated what my policy is. I want to make it clear that I have definite views on education, which is probably not surprising since I have spent most of my adult life engaged in education. However, after only seven months in office, I do not propose to translate those views into concrete, specific policy statements before I have had the opportunity of consulting the appropriate other authorities concerned. Many Deputies —I recall Deputy Haughey and Deputy Blaney—asked for such a statement. I have already told the House—I think it was during Question. Time—that it is my intention, when I have finished consultations with the various interests involved, to issue a Green Paper in which I shall outline the philosophy which is guiding this Administration's attitude towards education and upon which I shall invite any group or individual in the nation to offer any views they wish to offer.

In the meantime, therefore, I intend to offer the House some thoughts on general policy issues, and if these thoughts are expressed by way of question rather than by way of answer, it is because I wish the debate to continue. If I ask a lot of questions it is because I wish the Deputies in the House and the people outside to continue to offer thoughts before we come to the stage and, indeed, after we have reached the stage of issuing a Green Paper.

The area of pre-school education has been adverted to, and it is one which poses many questions for which answers are not readily available. It is even necessary at the outset to define what is meant by pre-school education. In some countries it means education for children under seven years. In other countries it means education for children under six, and in a few others it means education for children under five. What should it mean in this country where provision is already made for children from the age of four? Should it mean education for children of three years of age?

We must also clarify our minds as to the aims and objects of pre-school education. Should they be exclusively educational, or should they be both educational and social? Should pre-school education be available for all children of three years and, if so, are we likely at too early a stage to deprive the child of his first and best teacher, namely, his mother? Should three-year old children in rural areas be asked to travel by bus to and from school? Should they spend the whole day in school, and, if not, what of the cost of duplicating transport services for small numbers? On the other hand, should pre-school education be provided only in those areas which might be regarded as educational priority areas? In my opening statement I referred to that educational priority area. If so, is its function to be purely educational or must one be realistic and recognise that the problems of these areas are certainly not educational alone? We must go further and ask how successful education intervention is likely to prove in face of the particular economic, social, health and housing problems of these areas?

I have suggested that the duration of the school day could raise problems for very young children in rural districts. There would be similar difficulties in the case of children in educational priority areas. If attendance of three-years-olds is limited to a few hours each day, how far are we helping to solve the problems of the mother who has to go out to work? If, on the other hand, it is deemed necessary to care for children for the duration of the working day, something much wider than pre-school education is involved. One must ask, then, what type of provision must be made and who should pay for it? Indeed, one must also ask whether all pre-school education should not be the sole responsibility of the parents.

The question of school accommodation also arises. Should this be provided by adding to existing schools or in completely independent buildings? Here, there are both educational and financial considerations to be taken into account.

Finally, on this question, one must consider what type of teacher is required, what personal qualities are called for and what type of education and training is needed. I have asked and will continue to ask a number of questions in these areas because the debate on this is only beginning.

There are many aspects of primary education which must be the subject of continuous appraisal with resultant qualification and adjustment. For instance, is our present method of selecting persons for training as teachers the most desirable one? Is our course for aspirant teachers suitable and adequate and will it be even when extended by another year to give a full professional training and at the same time to enable the students to acquire that widening and deepening of general education and culture which should be an accepted characteristic of the professional educationist? How can we ensure that in their preparation and training for their profession the student teachers will get such an understanding and appreciation of the moral and ethical principle values on which all true education is founded that they will remain loyal to them throughout their career?

Let us remember, the young person entering on a teaching career may expect to be following that profession for 40 years or more. How far is our system of in-service training suited to equip the teacher to meet the requirements which a changing society will demand over that period? How do we go about devising adequate schemes for the retaining of teachers? These questions and many more we must continually ask ourselves because education is a dynamic, ever-developing activity. We cannot at any time say that we have the final and complete answer in the matter of adequacy of provision or suitability of organisation.

The school curriculum, too, must be the subject of constant scrutiny, reappraisal and research. Great though the general welcome has been for the new curriculum for primary schools which was published in 1971 and which is gradually being put into effect in the schools, no one could suggest that it or, indeed, any curriculum could represent the ideal or perfect approach to primary schooling for all time. Observation of its working in the schools will suggest what adaptations and adjustments are necessary to improve its value as an educational instrument to meet the needs of our times and to meet requirements which the circumstances of community life may dictate in the future. The importance of curricula development as an aspect of school education is receiving wide recognition in our times and we must gear ourselves to make necessary adjustments as circumstances dictate.

Associated with this topic of curriculum, as, indeed, all aspects of education at all levels are associated and interrelated, is the question of the transition of the pupil from the primary stage of education to the secondary. To speak of primary, secondary and third level education is not to imply that education is a process which comes in distinct and easily separable stages. Of course, it is not. It is one, continuing, indivisible process. But, obviously, different methods and different approaches are necessary according to the different stages of mental development and also of physical maturity of the pupils or the students.

I am aware of a certain lack of smoothness, as it were, in a pupil's transition from the primary to the secondary stage of education. In fact, it is difficult to lay down a particular age at which primary education may be said to conclude and secondary education to commence. By the way, I am using the word "secondary" here in the sense in which "post-primary" was formerly used. The early years in the secondary school, beginning at the age of about 12 years, are regarded as being a period of observations leading later to the pupil being guided as to the selection of a particular course of studies. One might legitimately ask whether this period of observation might not commence earlier while the pupil is still in the primary school and if the answer is "yes" then one must consider if any changes are necessary in the curriculum content say, for the last year or two of the primary school course and in the approach to teaching at that level. Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, one might find that adjustments are needed in the first year or so of the secondary school. In any event, it is not consonant with what I feel everyone would agree to be desirable, that is, a smooth and natural progress in the education of the young person, that there should be a sudden and pronounced change as to method and approach when the pupil proceeds from the primary to the secondary school. For the solution of this problem we shall need the suggestions, advice and, above all, the co-operation of managers and teachers of both levels of school.

I have already on a few occasions made reference to the question of the amalgamation of small national schools and I have listened with particular interest to the observations of Deputies in this matter during the present debate. It seems to me that Opposition Deputies are now, perhaps, prepared to take a more reasonable view of the problems involved in this connection than were the leaders of their party while in Government. I welcome such a change of attitude——

Did our party not start the whole idea?

Mr. R. Burke

——and look forward to more fruitful action in this regard in the future. With a view to bringing about a greater understanding of the relevant issues, I consider it might be helpful if I attempted to summarise as follows some general guidelines of policy in relation to intentions and procedures.

(1) It is not the intention in normal circumstances to build new one- and two-teacher schools or to provide new premises or undertake major reconstruction or improvement work for schools of this size. The necessary provision for replacement will be made on the basis of amalgamation with other schools in larger units. A new school premises is an investment for the future and it would be altogether inappropriate and unreasonable to replace a one- or two-teacher school with a school of the same size which would be obsolete in terms of educational requirements in a relatively short period of years. Where, however, it is considered appropriate in special circumstances to provide such schools the specifications will be up to full modern standards in relation to the size of the classrooms, equipment, range of facilities, et cetera, so that, as far as possible, pupils will not be placed at a disadvantage in comparison with pupils attending larger schools.

(2) The same considerations as in the case of the one- or two-teacher school apply to the three-teacher school when there is a declining average enrolment and the prospects are that it will not remain a school of that size.

(3) In normal circumstances, as the opportunity offers, the educational interests of the children may require that recognition should be withdrawn from a one-teacher school and suitable arrangements made for its amalgamation with another school to form a larger educational unit.

(4) Parents of pupils should be informed of the advantages for their children of attendance at schools of suitable minimum size and they should be encouraged to agree to amalgamation where suitable arrangements can be made by the use of free school transport to bring the children to a larger school.

(5) It needs to be emphasised, that as well as providing better educational opportunities for the children, larger schools contribute to a more equitable distribution of the total number of teachers available for all schools and, accordingly, to an improvement of the pupil-teacher ratio in areas of particular need. It is necessary for the State in the general good of all to advert to this fact.

Where is the change in the policy in this?

Mr. R. Burke

No. 6, in connection with the proposal for the amalgamation of schools in any area, the particular circumstances of the individual schools must receive the fullest consideration and an opportunity must be afforded for all aspects of the case to be examined and discussed. Due regard must be had to the wishes of those in favour of amalgamation as well as to the wishes of those opposed to the proposal. Parents are concerned for the welfare of their children and anxious to provide them with the best opportunity for their full development and advancement. At the same time, we are fully conscious of their obligations as citizens and are prepared to consider the requirements of the common good in connection with decisions that require to be made. It is in the full recognition of such considerations that suitable and equitable decisions may be made in relation to the amalgamation of schools.

As the Minister stated there was a difference in that policy and the policy of his predecessor, I think there is an onus on him to show where the difference lies.

The Minister is in possession. The Deputy will have an opportunity of asking a question when the Minister finishes.

Mr. R. Burke

May I say I never once interrupted any Deputy in the course of the debate?

I apologise.

Mr. R. Burke

In the case of schools where amalgamations were made on the basis of central school buildings or substantial enlargements to schools being provided, the situation must be regarded as a fait accompli from which there is no retreat at this stage, whatever the merits or demerits of the original decision.

(7) It must be recognised that there are over 1,800 one- and two-teacher schools at present in operation and that a large number of two-teacher schools will continue in operation for many years to come. I should not wish it to be thought that I consider a full standard of educational attainment cannot or is not being achieved in present circumstances in these schools. I am aware that very high standards are being achieved in many of them and the Department of Education will be prepared, within the range of grants available and in the interests of the pupils, to give them full support while they continue to receive recognition.

It is worthwhile considering what we are aiming at in relation to re-organisation or rationalisation of second level schools. At the moment we have secondary schools, vocational schools, comprehensive schools and community schools. There is general agreement that the provision of secondary level needs to be comprehensive in a situation in which all children receive secondary education. I am talking now about second level education only. We cannot simply accept all children into our secondary schools and neglect to provide courses designed to meet their varying needs and develop their varying abilities. This is where practical considerations enter into the debate.

What size of school can provide a comprehensive curriculum at a tolerable level in terms of teaching staff and facilities? The problem of a broad spread of subjects becomes particularly acute at the leaving certificate level. It is possible to provide reasonably well up to intermediate certificate level in a two-stream entry school but thereafter it is impossible to cater adequately in that school for the numbers going on to leaving certificate level. The idea of junior cycle schools is not popular with managers, teachers or parents; yet, in many instances, is it not the only realistic alternative to closing a school altogether, something which would be less popular still?

Studies which have been made here show that a school of 500 pupils at least is required to provide a reasonably broad range of subjects, taking account of the current and capital costs involved; indeed, a school of 800 to 1,000 would be nearer the optimum in terms of costs per pupil. Similar research elsewhere shows broadly similar results. I have been struck by the research findings in this respect in Scotland and Northern Ireland. These struck me forcibly because, when figures like this are mentioned, critics immediately talk of British and American standards being applied here. Indeed, mention of figures like these inevitably gives rise to calculations of how many schools would have to be closed or amalgamated to achieve schools of this size and this immediately becomes a very emotive issue. What has to be remembered, however, is that what my Department is primarily concerned with is the question of investment—that is, how should the capital provided for second level school building be spent? This inevitably means two things: first, we must look to the future and provide for the needs of the future and not for the present; secondly, the whole process is a long-term evolutionary one and would involve only a small number of schools at any one point in time.

There is, therefore, no question of compulsory closures and amalgamations but, when the issue of a new school building arises in any particular case, then we must plan for the future. Very many secondary and vocational schools are large enough to provide comprehensive facilities. My Department is assisting them to do just that. Where, however, individual schools are not large enough to provide the kind of service that is required, then some means must be found of bringing the individual schools together. In most instances, there are two or three small schools in the one town and I think that, whatever happens, these schools must face up realistically to the situation and accept that it is simply impractical for each of them to go it alone. What the best solution will be in a particular case is a matter for discussion with all the interests involved, that is, all the interests involved who have the power of making decisions.

In new city areas, it would not, I think, make sense to perpetuate past and present divisions in this second level sector and new schools in these areas must be comprehensive in character, that is, they must provide comprehensive facilities and must be in a position to cater for all the children of the area and be willing to do so. The form of management in each such school is a matter for discussion with all the interests involved.

It is not my intention nor, indeed, would it be a practical proposition to provide community schools in every area of the country but the structure of management and administration which has been devised for community schools does offer a means of overcoming many of the obstacles which were hitherto cited as insurmountable when rationalisation issues were being discussed. It should also be remembered that the degree of State financing involved in community schools is very great, that the cost of providing schools has risen enormously and that traditional sources of secondary school provision may no longer be adequate to the task involved.

The overall theme of a recent OECD symposium on school building was summarised as follows:

(a) How to get the kind of school buildings which respond to changing educational developments?

(b) How to get enough of them at a price which can be afforded?

The first of these questions referred to the need for school buildings which serve present exigencies while looking to the future, and reflected a need for flexibility and adaptability: flexibility to allow of variety in teaching without physical change to the building and adaptability so that the building could be changed at some future date, without prohibitive cost, to meet unforeseen educational needs.

Variety in teaching is a theme we would all wish to pursue further and we might see it immediately as requiring provision for team work in large group and small group spaces, as well as in traditional classrooms, combined with the need for individual work areas and project areas.

There is the need to provide in building form also for the growing interaction between subject areas which were at one time considered separate and distinct, an extension, indeed, of what is happening at primary level, and to reflect the emergence of the practical and the theoretical, the academic and the technical as inter-related aspects of a curriculum serving the varying needs of students.

Finally, one must consider the social and pastoral needs of students and see the provision being made to meet these needs physically expressed in the building solution.

I now propose to do some thinking aloud about the curricular problems of second-level schools. In the process I intend to ask what I hope are some relevant questions, not to supply ready-made answers. Frankly, it is not easy to say what are the right answers to many of the problems but, perhaps, if I ask some of the right questions those of you who are listening to me in the House, and concerned educationalists outside the House, may be stimulated to help me reach some of the right and workable solutions to these problems.

You are all aware that a far larger proportion of the school age population is pouring into our schools, that a greater proportion of this group is remaining, or wishes to remain if they see any point in what is going on there, for a longer period and that education is no longer restricted to those socially and economically lucky enough to be able to afford it. How then can the schools effectively cater for pupils who come from every occupational group and class and who differ radically from each other—in environment, in ability, in motivation and in levels of expectation and aspiration. How best does one adapt to our current needs an academic curriculum designed for an able minority with special occupational requirements? Can we find, so to speak, a non-academic equivalent suitable to the needs of what is really a major portion of the pupils in our schools today? When we broadened the curriculum recently so as to give greater status to practical subjects and to business studies was this kind of exercise, admirable as it was in its purpose, the right answer? Was it even a significant step in the direction of achieving that "equality of educational opportunity" to which we never tire of referring to today?

When we criticise the "Black Paper" man whose theme song is "More means Worse" have we given serious consideration to substituting a song of our own entitled "More means Different" based on the idea that what we should be aiming at is so to change styles of teaching, so to improve the quality of learning materials, so to up-date the very organisation of the school itself that we will lessen the credibility gap which appears to exist all too frequently between what is taught in school and what pupils learn from their own experience in the world outside the classroom? Can we say with assurance that we have done enough to disprove, to some extent at least, McLuhan's glib dictum that children nowadays interrupt their education in order to go to school? How successful have we been in ensuring that education, which should be a leading into wonder, is not a leading into boredom? How successful have we been in our quest for an educational system that will really be relevant to the changing needs of our society in a world of kaleidoscopic change?

In that connection, have we been continually conscious of one obvious consequence of the recent and continuous explosion of knowledge? It has long since become impossible to learn everything about something. Have we been over-inclined to believe that pupils should now learn something about everything or, at least, about a lot of things? Have we persisted too much in our respect for the traditional range of subjects? Have we consequently tended to ignore the claims of new subjects comprised of well-organised bodies of knowledge? I am not to be understood as belittling traditional subjects. I yield to nobody in my respect for them. I am merely posing the desirability of keeping an open mind about the claims for admission to the curriculum of a new subject where such claims appear to have some validity in the circumstances of today.

It is well to remember that there is always the danger that when one introduces a new syllabus in a traditional subject one may merely be pouring old wine into new bottles. I am not saying that we have in fact done that in any instance. I am merely sounding a warning against complacency. I have been talking about traditional subjects, new subjects and complacency. Could I now venture the opinion that we have perhaps been somewhat complacent in our neglect of the two extremely valuable traditional subjects of music and art? The importance of music and art in the cultivation of aesthetic sensibility and as channels of communication and sources of occupation for leisure have long been recognised, certainly in theory, and by all of us. Have we always practised what we preached in these fields? I doubt it, but I am apportioning no blame. Should we not now be concerned as never before with encouraging interest in these two outstanding creative subjects which are immensely important in what I understand is called "the effective domain of educational objectives".

Leaving this technical terminology aside, is it not a fact that few subjects have greater relevance than music for students out of school hours? Are they not enthusiastically engaged in education in music day and night? We have just to look at the record shops, if not at the discotheques. Was there ever a generation which found rhythm more exciting or which had so many of its children busily engaged in teaching themselves to play some instrument? Is it not wholly admirable, in this day of ruthless competition in every sphere of life, to find that some school orchestras exist where teachers and students of every age and ability engage together in wholly pleasurable and non-competitive activity? I am happy to state that music as a subject in one form or another is becoming increasingly popular in our schools. I am looking forward to a strengthening of this trend.

Little comment is needed on the importance of art. It is obviously a wonderful means of self-expression in an age in which the encouragement of self-expression is one of the most attractive features of the current educational scene. It enriches the life of the students who study it. It develops their technical skills and their capacity for self-expression. It develops visual imagination and powers of observation. Even for the student who possesses little creative flair, contact with this subject is certain to enrich him culturally, as well as enabling him to acquire a very valuable asset—an appreciation of well-wrought work. I have little doubt that in speaking to the House thus I am merely preaching to the converted. I have said nothing at all about its significance in respect of the quality of our industrial products. This significance has been proved indisputably by those of our industrialists who, in increasing numbers, have had the wisdom to put artistic expertise to good and profitable effect in the design area of their products. Over the past few days I have had the opportunity of seeing this kind of work at close range on two occasions.

Deputy Lemass spoke this morning and made a very good contribution. The Deputy asked me about the possibility of decentralisation and what plans were afoot for decentralising the Department to Athlone. The position is that discussions are still going on about the sections which might be going to Athlone. I cannot give any information as to the numbers or times of transfer.

In the course of my introductory statement I referred to the pressure on students and schools arising from concern over examination results. I emphasised the importance of pupil guidance in helping pupils to reach their full potential. Encouraged by the observations of Deputies, I now wish to make some further remarks in this regard and in particular in relation to the leaving certificate examination. There is no gainsaying the fact that examinations have been a cause of concern in many countries in recent years because of their restrictive impact on curricular development. The under pressure on students, passed on to parents and returned from them to the students, is enhanced by the difficulty associated with effective pupil guidance. For these reasons Ministers of Education in various countries have experimented with different arrangements for modified forms of examinations, continuous assessment procedures and the provision of pupil guidance through the appointment of special teachers.

Our leaving certificate examination is a group subject examination as distinct from a single subject examination. The award of the certificate is dependent on a particular standard being reached by a specified minimum number of subjects. Until 1973 it was also dependent on a particular standard being reached in Irish. Deputy Faulkner, in the course of his intervention, stated that, although only 75 candidates failed the leaving certificate examination in 1972 because of failure in Irish, he recognised that a human element was involved and he felt uneasy about the requirement for a pass in Irish.

Deputies generally have welcomed my decision to remove the requirement of a pass in Irish for the purpose of qualifying for the award of the leaving certificate. They believe that such action should be to the advantage of the policy in relation to Irish through the replacement of compulsion by inducement and encouragement. The decision in relation to Irish has a further advantage in that it enables a measure of flexibility to be introduced into our thinking in regard to the purpose which the leaving certificate examination should serve, the form which the examination should take and the type of certificate on results which might be issued.

It is not feasible to remove all pressures from students any more than it is possible to remove all pressures form people at the later stages of their careers. Competition is a fact of life which students must face and to which they will have to learn to adjust their attitudes.

While, however, the degree of competition may appear to be greatest in the case of candidates in the higher ability groupings, who will be seeking place in universities, colleges of education, et cetera, it may well be that such candidates have a greater capacity to withstand this strain than candidates of less academic ability who constitute the majority of the students and for whom schemes of pupil guidance may be considered to have particular relevance. I consider that it may be appropriate and opportune that very careful thought should now be given to the needs of these students and to consider how they may best be helped to achieve their full potential.

Deputies will be aware that there is an increasing emphasis in education towards what may be termed child or student centre education. The Minister for Education and his Department occupy a pivotal position in relation to the formulation of policy affecting courses and examinations. The Minister is not however all-powerful and I would not wish that he should be so. There are many other voices which should be heard-school managers, teachers, university authorities, parents and, I should hope in one way or another, the students themselves. I am not therefore in a position to come before Dáil Éireann and state in connection with the explanation of the Estimates for my Department that I propose to introduce such and such to courses and examination conditions without first having the fullest discussion in relation to them with the relevant educational authorities.

It may not be considered in appropriate for me, however, to indicate in general terms some aspects of the present arrangements in relation to the leaving certificate examination which are causing some concern. I have already mentioned this. I consider that, in line with the practice in the majority of the countries in Europe, the course leading to the final examination of the secondary school course should be broadly based. The approved course should comprise five or six subjects, as in the case of the leaving certificate course at present. Pupils should have available to them expert advice through an adequate guidance service to help them to make the most suitable selection of the subjects to be taken. I am also of opinion that candidates should present this range of subjects at examinations. I do not see, however, why we should then proceed, even on the basis of the examination results, to separate the sheep from the goats or, to put it in another way, to brand some candidates as failures despite the fact that they will assiduously and conscientiously have followed the approved course and have done so at a pace suited to their capacities and talents. The leaving certificate examination should, in my view, serve the purpose of an incentive to students to achieve their potential and furnish them with evidence of their attainments in the subject for which they have achieved success.

It seems to me that a case could be made that such a purpose would be better served if the statement or certificate or results issued to a candidate indicated his achievement in the individual subjects in which he attained the specified minimum standard and that it should be neither necessary nor desirable, nor even defensible, to make the issue of a certificate dependent on the attainment of a particular standard in a specified range of subjects. Clearly our aim should be to afford all the encouragement possible to young people to enable them to overcome the difficulties and hurdles confronting them and not to impose the additional psychological burden of a feeling of failure at the outset of their careers. This is a matter which I feel deserves careful consideration and it is my intention to have it examined.

Discussion have been going on for some time past between my Department and Radio Telefís Éireann in regard to the desirability of an educational radio service for schools in addition to the schools television service already in existence. The stage has now been reached when Radio Telefís Éireann hope to be in a position to launch a pilot radio project for Gaeltacht national schools within the next 12 months. Radio Telefís Éireann have undertaken responsibility for the preparation and broadcasting of programmes and ancillary material for this initial project. My Department will make grants available to managers of Gaeltacht national schools to assist them to provide radio receivers and other ancillary equipment in order to enable the schools to participate in this project. Radio Telefís Éireann will also have available to it the expert advice of officials of my Department in connection with the preparation of the proposed programmes. I want to stress that this is a pilot project designed for Gaeltacht schools in the hope of offsetting some of the shortages in the matter of texts and ancillary reading with which Irish speakers have to cope. At this point I can say no more about the project except that I will make education in the Gaeltacht areas a special concern.

In the case of higher education the major policy preoccupation at this stage must be the need to secure that all the various elements of education at this level are considered constructively as a whole. I cannot think in terms of the university sector alone, serious and complex as the problems there are. I must also consider the needs of technical and technological education outside the universities and the growing demand for development in this sector as a vital element in meeting national needs.

I cannot neglect the urgent requirements for improvement and development in teacher training, nor can I ignore our needs in adult education and culture generally. The problems in these sectors are interrelated and demand a comprehensive approach. This is not to say that I feel we can indulge in the luxury of contemplating a global problem without seeking to disengage the priority areas and attempting to make such progress as we can within the resources currently available.

The time has not yet come, however, when I can outline for the Government the sectors to which I would propose to give priority attention. As I have already said on many occasions, every effort is being made to collate and assess the various views on the reports of the HEA and to produce concrete proposals. It will be some time yet before this is brought to a conclusion and rather longer before the White Paper can be issued.

Before I bring this section to a conclusion may I express the concern, which I feel must be shared by many parents, concerning the real interests of those who are at the centre of the educational process at all levels—the students. In higher education generally pressures are mounting all the time: pressure to secure a place, pressure to retain the place, pressure to pass the final examination, pressure to secure a post in a fiercely competitive society. We are travelling farther and farther from the leisured groves of academic— if they ever really existed to that extent—and I fear sometimes that we are approaching the point at which the accumulated pressures may inhibit real education. Is there a hope that in this sector, as in the secondary sector, some means could be found—for example, continuous assessment or a credits system—to reduce some of the strain?

I now wish to refer to the various topics and questions raised by Deputies. I think it was Deputy power who raised the question of pre-school education—so did a number of other Deputies. There does not appear to be adequate appreciation of our traditional position in this respect. Children may be enrolled in our national schools from the age of four years and an appropriate programme is provided for them. The numbers attending between four and five years represent 64 per cent of the total age group; the figure for the five to six age group is 95 per cent. Below the age of four years it is not at all clear that there is any strong general educational reason for having children at school rather than at home.

There may be a social reason in some cases and this may be of increasing significance with increasing urbanisation. Nevertheless, there is much to be said for the view that parents are the best educators of young children and should be allowed to continue in that role. I would also hazard an opinion that when children are disadvantaged by both parents being out at work it would be only reasonable to expect a fair financial contribution form those parents towards any pre-schooling of their children.

In any event, the various factors involved are under special consideration and the results of the Rutland Street project will be of particular interest. This project is due to come to completion next summer and when the recommendation are submitted by the steering committee we will be in a better position to chart possible future lines of action especially in the matter of pre-school education for disadvantaged children.

Deputy Power referred to children of four to five years being unable to secure admission to a primary school. The school of which he spoke is due to be replaced by a new building and a tender for the work is expected to be accepted shortly. I can give further information to the Deputy if he consults me about it.

Again in reply to Deputy Power, there is nothing in the primary school curriculum to suggest that there is no place for memory work. What is suggested is that memorisation should follow understanding rather than precede it, as so frequently happened in the past. This is not a change for the sake of change but something based on sound psychological and pedagogical principles.

There was a suggestion that we should not let the three Rs obtrude on the new curriculum. We must remember, however, that as long as literacy and numeracy are important, the three Rs must be regarded as basic and fundamental to family education. While saying this I should also like to make it quite clear that, although ability to read and understanding of numbers are not being emphasised as ends in themselves, they are nevertheless very important and recognised as such in the primary school curriculum.

Deputy Hussey mentioned the place of agriculture in the primary school curriculum. The study of a specific science subject such as agriculture presupposes a background of general scientific knowledge which is entirely beyond the capacity of the primary school child and utterly unsuitable for inclusion in a primary school curriculum.

On the other hand, what is included in the primary school curriculum is the study of the child's environment, a study of plant and animal life, of natural phenomena as well as a study of elementary science in the way best calculated to arouse the interest and curiosity of the child. I feel certain that the most enthusiastic devotee of agriculture who studies the curriculum will be more than satisfied with its content and with the attitude which it strives to cultivate. Indeed I may add that farming and other rural organisations have expressed their unqualified approval of this aspect of the curriculum.

Deputy Briscoe referred to Montessori teachers. The new curriculum owes much to the methods and approach employed by the teachers of infant and junior classes in our own schools and to the extension of these methods to the middle and senior classes. That Montessori had an influence on the teaching of young children cannot be denied, but far more significant from the point of view of the new curriculum is the contribution of such educational thinkers as Froebel, Dewey and Piaget. The directress as trained for the pure Montessori school would normally have done only a six months course on the use of the Montessori materials. Where a longer course of training is given, it is primarily to provide an opportunity to study the work of other educational thinkers whose theories are less rigid and more widely accepted. Montessori-trained teachers are not recognised in ordinany national schools here because their training is not regarded as a suitable preparation for the work in those schools.

Deputy Hogan O'Higgins asked about guidance for slow learners. As far as primary school leavers are concerned, what is required is not a guidance service but to ensure ease of transfer from primary to post-primary and that the courses of study available in our post-primary schools should be as comprehensive as possible so as to cater for the varying aptitudes and abilities of the children. The new curriculum in the primary schools provides an integrated course of studies, and as a follow-on to this it is essential that the courses available at junior cycle level in our post-primary schools should be similarly integrated.

In references at this level to slow learners, it would seem that what were meant were those pupils needing remedial teaching. In this matter we aim to provide an additional teacher in all large schools, that is, those of ten teachers or more, in which there is a remedial problem. Where the need exists in more than one school in any area but the appointment of a remedial teacher would not be warranted by the numbers in any one school, we can approve an appointment to serve several schools.

The question was asked if we could provide one or two remedial teachers in all large towns. The position is that there are already about 250 teachers employed whole-time on remedial teaching in the cities and towns throughout the country and it is proposed to increase this number by 80 each year until the full requirements are met. Under the proposals which are at present being discussed with the interests concerned in regard to regionalisation, it might be possible to provide pools of teachers in each region to cope with this problem, particularly in so far as smaller schools are concerned where the employment of such specialists would not normally be warranted on a full-time basis.

Deputy Coughlan and others asked about school text-books and some Deputies expressed anxiety about expense arising from changes in text-books. I want to assure them that circulars are issued from time to time requesting school authorities to avoid any unnecessary changes in the texts used in their schools. The introduction of the new primary school curriculum has necessitated the gradual replacement of outmoded texts by up-to-date publications prepared specially to cope with the new programmes. It is envisaged that these new texts will not be revised for at least five years from the date of publication.

The average class size in our primary schools is 32, but the distribution of the teaching force over the schools is very uneven because of the very large number of small schools. Any improvement in the situation in regard to large classes depends on such factors as (a) the available supply of teachers and the speed with which additional numbers can be trained and (b) the rate at which amalgamations of small schools can be achieved and teachers released to areas of greater need. However, we should not overplay this one because the release of teachers in these areas need not mean necessarily a change in the position in, say, urban areas where there is the greater need.

The House will be aware of the very considerable improvement effected this year in the allocation of teachers to our large schools. I would hope that it would be possible to effect further improvements next year in the overall pupil-teacher ratio. The number admitted to training this year— 1,005—was the highest in the history of the State and increased numbers are being provided also through the intake of graduates and the admission of English teachers. We must bear in mind, however, that when the three-year course of training is introduced from September, 1974, there will be no graduates from the normal training course two years later. Obviously, this will limit our ability temporarily to effect further improvements in the pupil-teacher ratio.

A question was asked concerning how many teachers have been "saved" by amalgamations and how their services have been utilised. The position is that since 1966 more than 1,100 schools have been closed through amalgamations and it is estimated that 800 teaching posts have been saved. The extra teachers made available as a result of school rationalisation have been absorbed in (1) extra posts created through a reduction in pupil-teacher ratio; (2) posts temporarily occupied by unqualified teachers and (3) provision of remedial teachers and the need for special schools for the handicapped.

Deputy Fergus O'Brien and other Deputies, too, spoke of school leavers. In reply to them I should say that the latest figures available show that in the school year 1971-72 about 7,400 children left school between the age of 14 and 15 and about 8,000 left between the age of 15 and 16. The school leaving age was raised to 15 with effect from 1st July, 1972. This should bring about a considerable reduction in the numbers leaving between the age of 14 and 15. The provision of a welfare service for particular groups of children in this age range should be primarily a matter for the Minister for Health and Social Welfare. So far as education is concerned, I have asked my Parliamentary Secretary to undertake a special investigation to determine educational priority areas and the whole question of special provision for such areas.

On the subject of school record cards and the request for a review of the system, it must be accepted, I think, that experience of its working has not been entirely satisfactory. We are having a close look at the arrangements and we will see what can be done to make the system serve better the purpose for which it was introduced.

Deputy Fergus O'Brien and other Deputies, also, spoke of the system whereby under the rules for national schools the manager is the person charged with the direct government of the school and is regarded by the Department as the representative of the local interest. The Deputy was speaking of parent-teacher-student relationships. However, in recent years particularly it is known that many parent-teacher associations have been established. The Department have encouraged the formation of such associations with the aim of parents involving themselves in the education of their children in collaboration with the school manager. The establishment of these associations would be a matter primarily for local initiative. As Deputies are well aware, the question of associating parents more closely with the management of national schools has been raised with the managers' association and is under consideration by them.

On the question of the use of schools after hours, subject to the consent of the manager and certain general conditions in the case of schools vested in trustees, the Department offer no objection to the use of national school buildings for purposes other than school purposes—for example, parochial or community development.

Deputy Kitt referred to the attendance of pupils at Irish courses conducted this year in the summer colleges. While all applications for payment of instruction fees for these courses have not been forwarded yet to my Department, the indications are that the total number of pupils will be of somewhat the same order of magnitude as in previous years. The number for 1973 may be about 600 less than in 1972 but 2,000 greater than in 1971. The figure for 1972 was unusually high, at 1,500 approximately. The number in each of the four years 1970 to 1973 was as follows: 1970, 11,635; 1971, 12,427; 1972, 15,021 and 1973, 14,400 approximately.

Deputies Desmond, O'Sullivan, Hussey and Raphael Burke spoke of school buildings. Primary school accommodation in rapidly expanding areas is a first priority in the school building programme. The present position in regard to a number of places about which specific questions were asked is as follows: Carrigaline—it is proposed to erect two new 12-classroom schools, one for boys and one for girls. The manager has offered a site and is at present seeking further additional land suitable for the erection of the two schools. To alleviate the accommodation position grants have been sanctioned for the erection of three prefabricated classrooms at the schools: Ballincollig—the proposals for this expanding area are (a) to extend the existing school building to provide accommodation for either boys or girls in 12 classrooms and a general purpose room and the extension of four rooms and a general purpose room is in the course of erection, (b) to erect a new 12-classroom school for the other boys or girls on a new site. A grant was sanctioned on 5th April, 1973, towards the cost of this scheme.

Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the Beara Peninsula. This is an area where a little self-help would be in order and this should not be beyond the limited means available locally. Since the question was raised particularly, I should say that of the 21 schools in the area there are two with only one room, 16 with two rooms and only three with more than two rooms. Thirteen of these schools have only dry toilets and 19 have no general purpose rooms. Twelve of them are proposed for replacement by five central schools. The position is bad but there is no good reason why, since the issue of Circular No. 22 of 1967, something should not have been done locally in the matter. That circular empowers managers to go ahead with the installation of suitable heating and toilet facilities at existing schools. There is a minimum of formality in this matter and in necessitous cases such as this there are State grants guaranteed which would cover practically all of the cost involved.

Attention was drawn in the debate to a somewhat similar situation but one on a larger scale in Galway. In this case a planned programme is under way to provide up-to-date facilities and this will be completed as soon as possible.

The provisions which apply to the payment of grants towards the cost of maintenance, heating, cleaning and painting of national schools and the rates of these grants are under constant review by the Department. They are increased from time to time as circumstances permit. The grants are not intended to cover the total expenditure involved but to supplement amounts provided from local sources. A reasonable local contribution towards the cost in question is a fair requirement of the system of local management of national schools.

I turn now to the secondary school building programme. Having completed our references to school buildings for primary education it is appropriate to commence consideration of this aspect of secondary education. During the past few years we have been faced in this country and will continue to be faced, as will other countries, with a highly inflationary situation which renders extremely difficult control of building costs. These costs have increased 40 per cent over the past 18 months in England. We have increased our cost limit per square foot, progressively, from £5.50 to £7 since 1969.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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