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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Nov 1973

Vol. 268 No. 14

Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

With the permission of the Chair, I should like to make a statement. This morning in the course of Deputy Molloy's speech there was an interruption by me on the average population for Deputies in certain areas. I stated in good faith from information I got that the average population for Deputies in Dublin was 20,840. I should like to correct that: I am now informed that the correct figure is 20,142. It is only fair to put that on the record.

We appreciate what the Minister has said. I heard of the incident but I did not have the precise figures. Could the Minister indicate whether what he has said means that Deputy Molloy's figure was correct?

No, not quite accurate.

But it was more correct than the other one?

On a point of order, would it be possible through the Chair that the Minister for Local Government be requested in order to facilitate the debate that is now proceeding, to supply copies of the enlarged maps on which the electoral area populations are marked and which I know he must have had to facilitate him? To facilitate Members of the House, would it be possible, not necessarily to get a copy for everybody but, perhaps, to have them available in the Library.

They are in the Library in all cases.

And if they are all put together we have the whole country, or at least 26 counties of it.

I think the Deputy will admit that the presentation is a big improvement on previous efforts.

I would not at all agree, not on my side.

You got maps with the Bill.

You did not go back far enough.

Of course, it is an excellent Bill.

That little map is no use; it is just a map of Ireland.

There is a distinction in Deputy Blaney's mind between electoral areas and constitutional areas. We are talking about constituencies now, not electoral areas.

I am now calling on Deputy Dockrell to resume the debate on the Bill.

(Interruptions.)

Poor old Charley has come from behind and has jumped well in advance of you.

There are fascinating asides going on and the future of the party opposite is being accurately prognosticated by the Deputy on my left. These interesting asides and prognostications reveal the shape of things to come for the Opposition. They are on their way out.

Before Question Time I had been referring to the increase in the number of Deputies from 144 to 148. I hope that this will not be regarded as an unnecessary extravagance or anything like that because the increase is very small. If the four extra Deputies represent their constituencies, as I am sure they will, in a proper manner that will more than outweigh the trifling extra cost represented by their allowances and so on.

I stress this point about the number of Deputies because I have often thought that we suffered badly from lack of Deputies and that the State business suffered because there simply were not enough of us to go round. I have seen our representation compared with that in other larger countries. It takes 20,000 citizens to elect a Member here while across the water the figure is probably 80,000. If we were to adopt the higher ratio of people per Deputy that is adopted in big countries there would be only about 30 Members here. If that were the case it would be manifestly impossible to run the country properly, from the democratic point of view and to give utterance to the various points of view which exist and to watch the Government of the day, as is the business of Parliament. In fact, we need more Members than we have.

While I do not suggest that this is the moment to go for much bigger representation I believe that having regard to the complexity of government and the multiplicity of items which come before us it will be realised eventually that even 148 Members are not sufficient to man the various offices and to carry on the business of Parliament, particularly in view of the altered conditions that now obtain since we have become a Member of the EEC. I believe that by the time the next revision of constituencies comes around there will be a serious movement in the country to have much bigger representation in the Dáil in view of the difficulties and complexity of government and as government enters more and more into the life of every citizen. I nearly said "into their pockets." It certainly is taking an increasing share from them in the form of taxation which hits every section of the population.

That bigger and wider view of government means that of necessity a greater burden is thrown on to Deputies. At the moment we are stretched a bit too thin on the ground. Taking into account the number of Deputies who are away in Strasbourg, who are attending meetings, doing very important business, very few are left to man the various Committees of the House. As a matter of fact, I should be at a committee meeting at this moment, but one cannot be in two places at the same time.

These are the sort of problems which will come increasingly before the House. This is a matter that the whole House would have to consider and in which the country would have to acquiesce. The tendency will be for the House to grow larger so that the best interests of Ireland can be served and Parliamentary business can be discussed.

I welcome the Bill and the way in which the Minister has introduced it. He has been very fairminded about it and has been most helpful in the reception of criticism and proposals for alterations. What he and the Government want to do is to ensure that the constituencies are workable and conform to geographic requirements and to the wishes of the people. I referred briefly to the constituency which I, with others, represent. Although I personally regret leaving many friends on the north side of the Liffey, I think the revision makes the constituency more workable. Where there is a natural division, as there is in Dublin, caused by the Liffey, it should be taken into account in drawing up the electoral area. I know there has been the same care for other geographical boundaries in the drafting of this Bill.

There are considerations other than the numerical one of population. The law lays down what we must do in this matter but sometimes it can lead to geographical absurdity. For instance a Member may have to cross a mountain in order to get from one part of his constituency to another. The Minister has endeavoured, to the best of his ability, to have regard to these considerations.

I noted with interest what the Minister said in regard to the constituencies. The maximum constituency is five-member and there are very few of those. Of course, they do allow for greater flexibility in providing for proportional representation. We must bear in mind that while it is admirable to give the fullest rein to what I may call the purist theories of proportional representation, they do not always act in the greatest national interest. This situation is a fair way of compromising between very big constituencies and a complete negation of proportional representation.

I welcome the Bill and applaud the Minister for the manner in which he brought it in.

I found it very interesting listening to Deputy Dockrell. He complimented the Minister on how agreeable he was to proposals to change.

I was not in touch with Deputy Dockrell when this Bill was being drawn up.

I hope the Minister will be as susceptible to proposals from this side of the House. I do not think our representations will receive the same degree of acceptance as the proposals which emanated from Deputies on the Government benches. Deputy Dockrell mentioned that he found it hard to be in two places at once. I agree with him, but it will be necessary for some Deputies to be able to do this if they are to represent some of the constituencies as proposed by the Minister.

On a first examination of the Bill there would not appear to be any consistent pattern. But when one goes into detail it emerges that the political consideration of the National Coalition is the main factor. The Minister quite blandly asserts that this is not so. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister spilt the beans. I congratulate him for this speech because he laid it before the House that the one factor above all others which influenced the thinking behind this Bill was political expediency. I have great sympathy for him. He was, to my mind, in a dilemma as he tried to justify with figures the ravages done by the Minister in the name of this Bill. It was pitiful and pathetic to hear him trying to justify the deliberate dropping of representation in western areas. Deputy Molloy showed conclusively that the western areas, by that I mean the province of Connacht, Clare and Donegal, should have retained the representation by 30 Deputies, regardless of their political affiliations. One might say that this Bill is akin to the wandering minstrel in "The Mikado", a thing of shreds and patches. I remember the outcry which was raised when the county of Leitrim was divided.

Surely the Deputy means "The Yeoman of the Guard"?

If the Deputy looks up Gilbert and Sullivan operas he will see I am right.

I think I am right.

No, but that is an aside.

The Deputy should put down a question.

Let us consider the county of Roscommon. Under this Bill I have a particular interest in part of this county thanks to the Minister's surgery—maybe "surgery" is too strong a word——

Does the Deputy not like the Roscommon people?

Roscommon is like Gaul of old—divided into three parts. I remember the promises and declarations made in the case of Leitrim that if Fine Gael were in power they would put Leitrim back as an entity. Alas, promises were made to be forgotten. Maybe the Labour blood which was added to the National Coalition diluted the blood of the Fine Gael Party because Leitrim is still divided. The Minister could quite easily have put Leitrim and Roscommon together and had a four-seat constituency. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach made valiant efforts to say that the Minister could not have done otherwise than to reduce the western representation. He also said, if my memory serves me right, that the Minister would have been in defiance of the Constitution if he had done this. It should be placed on record that the Minister would not have been in defiance of the Constitution if he had kept the representation. Deputy Molloy quoted figures. It will do no harm if another western Deputy, such as myself, were to say that if the Minister had retained the 30 Deputies, that the average, even excluding Athlone West Urban, would have been 19,141.

The Parliamentary Secretary, also, was very anxious to assure the House that the people of the west are not simple and that they will see the reason for the Bill, that they will realise it was introduced as a result of previous court decisions which left the Minister with no option but to reduce their representations. I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that the people of the west are not simple and that they will realise the principle behind the Bill—the dropping of two of their Deputies.

That makes a total of five when the three dropped last time are taken into consideration.

I am not interested in what happened then. The people will realise that their representation is being reduced in the interest of political expediency and in the Government's hope that the two seats lost will be Fianna Fáil ones. In introducing the Second Stage today the Minister told us that his objective in drawing up his proposals was, first, to ensure fair and reasonable representation for the people of every area and, secondly, that, as he had stated already, he was endeavouring in so far as possible—he covered himself nicely by the use of that phrase —to avoid breaching existing administrative boundaries and was endeavouring to ensure that natural communities were not split unnecessarily among different constituencies. In regard to my own constituency I am one Fianna Fáil Deputy who is not very happy with the Minister's proposals.

There must be an odd man out.

I have certain reservations in regard to the division of this constituency of East Mayo where the average population per Member is minus 851 while in West Mayo the figure is minus 20. I will leave it to the Minister to explain his proposals for my constituency. It has been seen fit to remove from the northern end of East Mayo a number of areas, some of which could have been left as they were without in any way violating consitutional requirements. We will do our best to disappoint the advisers to the Minister in so far as this constituency is concerned in that we will hold two seats there. Anybody examining the map of the constituency will see that it is shaped like a bottle—round at one end and has a narrow funnel, a funnel that is approximately seven miles wide. A publication which did not take the side of Fianna Fáil in the last general election—The Western People—has not expressed satisfaction with the division of the constituency. They say there has been a sacrifice in so far as not only is an effort being made to take a considerable amount of support from me but that a Senator who was a Taoiseach's nominee is being sacrificed.

Since the National Coalition assumed office the most consistent theme of their reign has been the complete change over from their principles as expounded while they were in opposition. Deputies Molloy and Moore dealt this morning with that turnabout, especially in respect of Fine Gael who, some years ago, sought leave to introduce a Bill for the purpose of setting up a commission to deal with the question of constituencies.

It is obvious that their one interest now is self-interest, that their priorities are those which are in their own interest. However, that would be much more palatable if it were stated openly although it was inferred this morning by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach. Deputies must be aware that this Bill is a compromise one in that, on the one hand, the Minister had to satisfy two parties and on the other, he had to satisfy individual Deputies in those two parties. It is common knowledge that originally the divide in Mayo was to have been between north and south, but as this would not be suitable to one of their Deputies, if not two, urgent representations were made to the Minister not to go ahead with that proposal. One fails to see the the logic of three-seat constituencies in Dublin city and a five-seater in Cork, unless it is for the sole purpose of party advantage. There can be no other logical explanation.

I listened to Deputy Dockrell explaining the difference between the north of the Liffey and the south of the Liffey and stating how glad he was that his constituency would now be south of the Liffey. In the next breath he stated that some Deputies might have to cross mountains. I suppose the new bridge across the Liffey will help Deputy Dockrell also.

At another stage I propose to show the Minister that in relation to my own area he could have left a considerable amount of the areas he has taken from East Mayo without, in any way, violating the constitutional requirements.

In the few years I have been in this House I do not recall ever noticing so much interest in a Bill before it was introduced as the Bill which we are now discussing on the Second Stage. For the past six months in the corridors of the House, and elsewhere, the main topic of discussion has been the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973. One would have imagined that the Minister for Local Government, who had charge of making that revision, a charge which he has to carry out under the Constitution, had the power to draw the constituencies in such a manner that after the next general election we would arrive back with 148 National Coalition Deputies and not a single Fianna Fáil representative.

That was in the minds of some people. They felt the Minister for Local Government could go to that extreme. The Bill he has presented was a feat in so far as it has been fair to everybody. The Minister has had a most unenviable task and I do not think any man would have met the situation better than he has done. I am, therefore, at a loss to know what all the fuss is about now. Let us pass the Bill quickly and get on with the more important work which will face the House and the nation in the months to come.

I know well that those words will fall on deaf ears and that this will drag on to such an extent that the country will be sick and tired listening and hearing of constituency revisions. When the end of the day comes, and the Bill is finally passed, nobody will know what it was all about until election time comes.

As for the accusation of gerrymandering, I should like to state that in my opinion there is no such a thing as gerrymandering constituencies. It just cannot be done. The former Minister for Local Government did as good a job at that, or made as good an attempt at it, as any man who ever occupied the position and yet, under his very Bill——

Not the former Minister for Local Government.

A former Minister for Local Government.

A former Minister, and the Deputy should be a little more explicit. The Minister has already admitted his mistake in that regard.

I stand corrected and I apologise to the Deputy.

The Deputy should not be one bit ashamed of what his predecessor did.

He did as good a job as could be done and yet the end product was that his party were defeated. If the people are not satisfied with the Government in power, no matter what way the constituencies are drawn, they will put them out. If we had elections in the morning under the present constituencies—this Bill does not come into effect until the next general election—I have not the slightest doubt but that the National Coalition would have a huge majority.

Very few people would agree with that.

We will have additional Deputies in the next Dáil as a result of the increase in the population. This is a very good thing and it reflects the growing prosperity in the country whereby people can remain at home, get employment here, and as such contribute their votes in a parliamentary election.

In my constituency we have seen a movement of the population at every revision. For years we were part of Carlow-Kilkenny. At the next revision we took in a slice of Meath and a slice of Westmeath and at the last revision we gave a slice to the constituency of Meath. On this occasion, probably because of our proximity to the city of Dublin, and because our housing programme is under such pressure from Dublin to cater for a rise in population, we have to sacrifice a large slice of our county to Dublin and to Meath.

One area that is going into the West Dublin Constituency, Leixlip, is a newly built-up area inhabited by people working in the city. Most of these are city-orientated and, to my mind, it is to their advantage to be there. We are losing the town of Maynooth, a university town, and the same thing applies there. As soon as the Minister receives the plans and gives his sanction for the extension of the services the town of Celbridge will expand at such a rate that the same situation will prevail and it will be another dormitory town. The division there has been fair to the newcomers but to the oldtimers it will be a change they will not like. As their representative I regret that they have to leave the constituency. That is one of the hazards in a constituency revision. It cannot be avoided. I am convinced that they will be represented excellently by the Deputies they will elect in that new constituency.

Kildare will then continue to be a three-seater. For those of us who represent it at the moment it will be more compact and it will be easier to keep in touch with the people. In the smaller constituencies, while the population is still there, it will be easier to keep in touch with them. Therefore the Minister was absolutely right in increasing the number of three-seat constituencies. It is amazing to think that in all the years the population in Laois-Offaly has never varied. It reminds me of the advertising jargon on the radio in the morning: Like so-and-so's flour it never varies. This constituency has always retained its five seats. Carlow-Kilkenny also has five seats. If all the constituencies had remained the same the Minister would have had no problem. In trying to make the changes I am certain he was aware that he would not please everybody. That was not possible. He has done a reasonable job.

The previous speaker referred to the setting up of a commission to redraw the constituencies. On a previous occasion some of my learned colleagues introduced a Bill to that effect. With all due respect to them, to the media and all others who advocate that, I feel it would be a wasted exercise. Having completed their task the commission would have to submit their recommendations to the Dáil and, no matter which side was in power, somebody would not agree and it would eventually come back to the politicians to settle it themselves. Unless you give a commission absolute power to redraw the constituencies with no further reference back to the Dáil it will be a wasted exercise and a complete failure.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to section 7 which provides:

(1) Where a polling district existing at the passing of this Act is not wholly situate within one of the constituencies specified in the Schedule to this Act, the appropriate officer, after consultation with the returning officer for the constituency concerned, shall, with respect to the part of the polling district situate in a constituency so specified—

(a) join it or parts of it with any adjoining polling district or districts ....

That is extremely unfair to the people in that polling district. All too often the Irish people are called parochial but, when it comes to election time, parochialism is very noticeable. If a polling district is divided at election time people may find that one side of the road is in a particular polling district all of which voted in X at the last election. They now find that they have to go to one constituency on one side of the road to vote and another constituency on the other side of the road to vote. I would ask the Minister to have another look at that and see if it would be possible to leave the entire polling district in a particular constituency, whether it is being moved from one constituency to another, or being left as it is in the existing constituency.

The Minister said:

This is an increase of four over present representation and is the maximum number permissible under the Constitution.

Does that mean that if the population goes up to 10 million between now and the next census, we cannot have more than 148 Deputies? This gives food for thought and it should be looked into before it arises. With God's help and the help of the National Coalition Government the population will reach that figure. We should not wait until it does to make the necessary change. I thank the Minister and I congratulate him on the job he has done. I hope the Bill will be received favourably by the House and as quickly passed as possible.

Certainly the Deputy is entitled to his congratulations. A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, on a point of information would you allow me to ask the Minister a question? I understand that after Question Time the Minister referred to a figure which I had quoted and which he had said earlier was wrong. Subsequently he gave some other figure. Could we have an explanation from the Minister on that?

I have already given it. I am sorry the Deputy could not find time to be in the House.

Unfortunately I was not here as the Minister is aware.

You were right and I was wrong.

I was correct?

The Deputy's figure was as nearly correct as makes no matter.

The figure I gave was 20,142. That was correct? I understood that the Minister said my figure was still not correct.

It is slightly off.

Like the previous speaker I believe it is not very easy to gerrymander the constituencies. It has been alleged that this was done by a previous Minister for Local Government. An analysis of the two elections which took place in 1969 and 1973 to my mind proves more or less conclusively that gerrymandering cannot be carried out as easily as some people suggest.

Taking the constituency of Waterford, Fianna Fáil got two seats in 1969 and one in 1973. In Laois/Offaly, Fianna Fáil got three seats in 1969 and two in 1973. There was a change in Longford-Westmeath. In 1969, Roscommon-Leitrim and Sligo-Leitrim gave Fianna Fáil two seats and one in 1973. Both Monaghan and Cavan gave two seats to Fine Gael in 1969 and one to Fianna Fáil. They changed that representation in 1973. The same thing obtained in the two Mayo constituencies and a further example is the constituency of Kildare. Taking the overall picture I am not prepared to accept that gerrymandering can be carried out as easily as some people outside the House suggest.

As I see it—and I have expressed this view before—much depends on the people and how they react at the time of an election to the various political parties and to the Government. What I see happening is this: the interest is more in the particular Deputies than in their parties. So far as possible Deputies look after their own interests, I understand, by making representations to the Minister. I have never done that. They hope that with luck the accumulation of their interests will be to the advantage of the political party to which they belong. Perhaps it works in some cases and does not in others. I have the impression that the Minister if given the choice would have preferred somebody else to draft this Bill. In the past he has expressed views completely contradictory to what he is proposing now. However, I realise he must carry out the duties of his office and must do what is expected of him.

I live in the north-west of the country. There are four counties— Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo and Roscommon—near my area. An analysis of the figures shows that if the Minister wished he could have given an extra seat in that area. At the moment we have only 11 seats and I suggest we could have been given an extra one without any great imposition on tolerance. The figure we have been given for Donegal is 105,509, for Sligo-Leitrim it is 63,030, for Roscommon-Leitrim 63,358, giving a total of 213,897. Had the Minister decided to give us 12 seats on the basis of that number of votes, the average would be 19,326, which would be 797 below the national average. This is not extraordinary because the constituency of Meath, which the Minister represents, and Louth have the following figures: Louth is 851 below the national average and Meath is 885 below the national average.

An injustice is being done to my part of the country. The areas are quite considerable, the population is falling, the constituencies are difficult to work and they impose considerable strain on Deputies. A readjustment of the area, by giving an extra seat, would facilitate Members. This would not guarantee any of the two major parties the extra seat. The Sligo-Leitrim-Roscommon area is one of the most independent areas in the country. During the years, my native county has proved this: they elected Count Plunket, they elected Sinn Féin Deputies, in the 1920s they gave a huge majority to Fine Gael which was changed to Fianna Fáil in the 1930s. My county elected Clann na Talmhan representatives in the 1940s, they elected a Clann na Poblachta Deputy in the 1950s, then changed back to Clann na Talmhan, to Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and back to Fine Gael. No other constituency has this pattern with this large floating vote. It would be difficult for an Independent Deputy to propose an amendment to change this situation but we may try to do so.

The matter of the division of Leitrim arises here. In the past there has been much comment on this. Every county likes to remain on its own but unfortunately Leitrim and Roscommon have been subjected to partition during the years. This affected Roscommon for a much longer period than Leitrim because part of that county went into Longford-Westmeath in the 1930s. After the last electoral Bill, part of Roscommon went to South Galway and part to North Galway. It is unfortunate that the amendment to the Constitution with regard to single constituencies was rejected by the people. Leitrim is still divided even though promises were made in the past that when the occasion would arise that county would be one constituency.

My constituency is from 110 to 120 miles from one end to the other and this makes it difficult for Deputies. It is not easy to see how we can change it now, but we will give some thought to the matter and perhaps we may put down an amendment. I hope the Minister will give us sympathetic consideration.

The Minister was forced by law to bring in this Bill and I would remind the House that it was Fianna Fáil who drafted the Constitution. The Minister had no alternative. Fianna Fáil should make up their minds about this Bill. Some speakers talk about gerrymandering, while Deputy Moore has said it was impossible to please everyone. I agree with the view expressed by Deputy Moore.

The former Minister for local Government spoke about millions of acres of land. What counts today—people or land? He also spoke about the distances Deputies would have to cover. During the election campaign he covered much of the land when travelling by helicopter. It is easy to knock a Bill, but Fianna Fáil have not offered any constructive criticism. This continual carping is merely wasting the time of the House. One Member from North Mayo admitted that this was his swan-song. They talk about fewer Deputies representing the West. This is the greatest indictment that could be made against Fianna Fáil. The population has been falling in the West. What alternative had the Minister? Was he to go out into the Atlantic Ocean to see if he could get voters there? A great deal of time is being wasted on this.

The Deputy did not waste much time studying it anyway.

Deputy Molloy was approached by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, and he rubbed his hands and said: "I'm all right, Jack". He asks now why Clare is being brought in but he did not ask why Clare was brought in on the last occasion. It is not right for a man to blow hot and cold. There is too much of that here.

This Bill is not concerned with acres of land. It is concerned with people. One may have to cover a great many acres to get to the people, but it is the people who count in this instance. I congratulate the Minister on doing a good job. There is a great deal of comanche country coming into my area and that is why Deputy Molloy rubbed his hands and said: "I'm all right, Jack". We will get a share of these too because they were knocking on my door for years. In the High Court when a certain individual was questioning me hard and thought he had me cornered I turned the tables on him. I produced letters out of my pocket and I said: "People are already coming to me and if you, my lord, would like to read these letters, I have the proof here". A great percentage of them to the present day are not knocking on my door but they are on the telephone. It might be no harm for Deputy Molloy to know that. His "I'm all right, Jack" attitude is O.K., he is quite happy about the whole thing. The time of the House is being wasted. The Minister has done a good job. He has not altogether pleased me but he could have displeased me more. No matter what he does he will not please everybody. The man above could not do that. The Minister should not try to please everybody.

The congratulations are all one-sided.

Not at all.

The Minister said in a statement on the radio that he dearly would have liked to have kept each county intact as a constituency. He dearly liked to do that in County Meath but there are other counties in which he did not dearly like to do that. He has partitioned County Leitrim between two constituencies.

It was partitioned between three.

Sligo and Leitrim could have been added together to form a four-seat constituency of 68,765 people. Leitrim-Roscommon could have been a four-seater with 81,879 of a population. When he was asked why he had taken seats away from the West, he said there should be even one less seat there and implied it was his generosity that was giving the West 28 seats instead of 27. In fact, with the population in the West at present there should be 29 seats. We heard from Deputy Malone and we have learned from official documents that the increase in the number of representatives in the Oireachtas is as a result of an increase in the population. Apparently all the increase in seats will be in Dublin, in the east of the country, where the Taoiseach's Ministers are all located, except for two. Not one Minister is from west of the Shannon. When he selected his Ministers I heard him say he was blessed with brains. He had all kinds of doctors, Wise Men from the East, the Melchiors, Caspars and Balthasars, and these are the people obviously responsible for trying to justify an increase in Dublin and a decrease in the West of Ireland.

Clare is a West of Ireland constituency. It will have three seats. It has a population of 20,910, the fourth highest number per T.D., whereas in Dublin South-East you have 19,292. In the Minister's constituency in Meath you have 19,238. This constituency is adjacent to Dublin and, if I may say so, it is well represented by one of the wisest men of the east, the Minister himself. If the increase in Dublin is justified by the increase in population, why is it not justified in County Clare where there has also been an increase in the population? The population at the moment is approximately 75,500 which would justify four seats working on the proportions on which the Minister has worked in County Meath and that would keep the county intact as a constituency. The Minister has made Clare a three-seat constituency and has taken roughly 13,000 people in Clare and added them to 65,300 people in West Galway where the population justifies only three seats.

There is possibly an underlying motive there. It has been suggested by the Press that the Minister is considering a seat for one of his own party and more luck to him. I would ask him is he ignoring his own party in County Clare. I am not trying to tell him or any of the members of the Labour Party how they should run their own business but up to some few years ago there was always a Labour representative in County Clare. If he declared Clare a four-seat constituency his own party would put up a good fight for the fourth seat there. I mean that. I am offering the suggestion in a friendly way in friendly rivalry. The proposed new constituency of West Galway, for Deputy Coogan's information, stretches from the borders of Mayo down to almost the town of Ennis in Clare and as far as Ennistymon in West Clare. You have every possible problem in that proposed constituency for any representative. You have mountains, as you know, in Connemara. You have some good land. There is the city of Galway with the problems of a city, there are a couple of small towns, there is the Gaeltacht, there are the islands. There are the problems of fishing, forestry, land drainage, the various educational problems concerning double honours for Irish in Connemara and Aran.

There is Lisdoonvarna.

Yes, indeed. There is something in Lisdoonvarna that could be developed. I have represented Lisdoonvarna up to now: maybe I will represent it after the next election. I still have not decided which of my three horses to put in the race. I advised the Minister for Health recently, when we were discussing rheumatism, that he should make a full investigation of the fact that the drug lithium was discovered in the waters of Lisdoonvarna. Lithium is a drug which lifts you. You do not have to go on "reefers". If you go to Lisdoonvarna and take the waters in sufficient quantity you get this old lift. In Lisdoonvarna there is sulphur water, magnesium water and iron water. At the twin wells lithium was discovered.

What about the drop of poteen in the West?

Let us keep to the Electoral Bill.

Yes, there is that problem also and there is the situation in the West that if somebody such as Deputy Coogan, Deputy Coughlan or myself rambled into a licensed premises with a half pint or less of poteen and left it in that premises the licensee would lose his licence in court and never again during his lifetime could he hold a licence.

That is a bad law and a vicious law.

(Interruptions.)

Let us stay with the electoral law.

Deputy Dockrell said he was losing his friends on the north side of the Liffey. The Liffey is only a couple of hundred yards at its widest point. Look at the distance between Cong and Ennis. Deputy Dockrell, whom I have often met walking on the street, if he decided when the Dáil adjourns to visit his whole area, could do so before supper time. If the man representing the new constituency of West Galway wanted to visit his whole area it would take him the most part of three months in a motor car.

He would need a helicopter.

I cannot understand why the Minister who said he was helping the West of Ireland, picked on County Clare and County Galway which were ably represented by 12 representatives, including Deputy Coogan. Now he intends having only 11 for the two counties although the population of Galway has not gone down and Clare has risen considerably.

So has Galway.

Even since the last census the population of Clare has increased considerably. Why drop a seat in Clare and Galway? One does not have to guess twice why. I am the one representative of the 12 to whom apparently the Minister has pointed a finger to axe me. I do not hold that against him. He has left me entirely without a constituency.

I gave the Deputy a choice of three.

Clare-South Galway is abolished. At two elections the people of that constituency considered me a worthy man and elected me at the head of the poll on both occasions.

They will again.

I had quite a number of votes to spare the last time. The people must have thought I was a worthy representative. The Minister has made three halves of my voters. We often say that in County Clare from lack of education. He has put my voters into three different constituencies. County Clare will have three seats. There will be 20,910 people per representative in the new County Clare constituency. A big wedge of the western end of the existing Clare constituency has been added to West Galway. A figure of 20,910 in a western constituency, the fourth highest. The Bill says that the Clare constituency will be the administrative county of Clare except the part thereof which is comprised in the constituency of West Galway. I will not refer to all the townlands.

(Interruptions.)

Outside Gort, in a place called Kiltartan, where Lady Gregory lived and where Yeats visited and wrote most of his work, the Forestry Section have a barn. The Kiltartan Society, which tries to keep alive that type of culture, asked the present Minister for Lands for permission to have this barn reconstructed as a theatre to portray material associated with Lady Gregory and W.B. Yeats. Permission was refused at the same time as learned people in Leinster House were discussing an Arts Bill. Big money was voted for art. The home of Irish theatre, the birthplace of the Abbey was in Kiltartan——

The previous Minister for Local Government should do something about it.

He did not represent that constituency. I did, and when I asked I was turned down. The Deputy keeps telling me about the problems of the West of Ireland. I have advised the Minister about his own party in County Clare. Deputy Coughlan, a Labour Deputy from Limerick, could corroborate what I say about the large amount of employment in County Clare, around Shannon and the Ennis industrial area and even in my area in East Clare, where there is quite an amount of industry. The Minister, I think, would be letting down his own party by not having a four-seater in County Clare.

We will look after Clare.

I think, and I have often said, that there is something wrong in the Constitution other than the questions of divorce and sovereignty. I do not think a TD in rural Ireland should have to represent as many people as one in Dublin city because it is quite obvious, as I have already said, that they have very few problems in Dublin city especially north of the Liffey, compared with what we have in the country such as the long time spent in travelling. I think there should be an amendment of the Constitution so that some percentage should be allowed to a Deputy in the West of Ireland and that he should represent about half or two-thirds of the number of people that a Dublin Deputy must represent. I think that would be fair. The constituency I represented previously was many times bigger than County Dublin. In the constituency to which I may go now with Deputy Coogan we shall have more problems. If I do go there I shall make a small bet that the Minister's nominee will not get the fourth seat there.

Does the Deputy not know that he is well and truly known, not only nationally but internationally, and he need not have any worries? All we are trying to do is rectify the depredation wrought by the Fianna Fáil regime.

You settled Mr. Lipper, once and for all.

(Interruptions.)

I must object to Deputy Coughlan's allegation that I am internationally known. Does he mean internationally known for good or for bad?

The Deputy is internationally known for good because he is one of the exceptions in Fianna Fáil; the rest of them are reeking in badness.

Deputies should cease interrupting and allow Deputy Loughnane to make his own statement.

We are only helping him over the ditches made by Fianna Fáil.

I am getting inspiration from Deputy Coughlan. Would I be well enough known in Limerick?

The Deputy is well known in Limerick.

He will not be run out of Boston, like another Deputy.

I have seen Deputies come and go here for a long time.

The Minister would retain some credibility by admitting that political considerations alone and the good of the Coalition governed his action in denuding the west of seats.

The Deputy should make his own speech. Deputy Paddy Lalor can make his own.

I have my own.

Like the Minister, I do not think Deputy Lalor is interested very much in the West. The people most interested in the West in the House at present would be my colleagues on the opposite side.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 20th November, 1973.
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