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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1973

Vol. 269 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach.

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íochta an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1974, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Roinn an Taoisigh.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach.

Probably the most important events affecting our country over the past year or so have been developments on Northern Ireland, our entry into the European Economic Community and on the domestic front, the social welfare increases and the way in which inflation is affecting our economy. I propose to deal briefly today with these subjects, as well as reviewing developments in the economy generally and organisational changes in the public service.

I have arranged for the laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas copies of the agreed communique on the conference at Sunningdale on the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th December between the British and Irish Governments and the parties involved in the Northern Ireland Executive-designate.

The communique is the result of approximately four days of close negotiations between this Government, the British Government and members of the Executive-designate for Northern Ireland. The wording of the communique is I believe clear and I do not think it necessary or useful to enter here into a detailed commentary on it, or interpretation of it.

The important thing now is to make what was agreed at Sunningdale work for the benefit of all the people of Ireland. Not merely do we want to see the power-sharing Executive, and the Council of Ireland, come into being early in the new year, we also want to see them come into being under the best possible auspices; that is to say with maximum growth in mutual confidence between the different groups and interests which will make up these institutions. This process would not, in my Government's view, be helped if each party to the agreement were to enter into detailed exposition of its own particular interpretation of the communique, or of any part of it.

The Sunningdale agreement opens out a new prospect of hope for peace and reconciliation and co-operation in this island. But we cannot just take the realisation of that hope for granted.

We, all of us had to work hard at Sunningdale to bring about the agreement recorded in the communique. We shall, all of us, have to work even harder in the months to come, and to show a great deal of patience on all sides, if we are to build on that agreement the living reality of co-operation in mutual confidence and mutual respect.

The Sunningdale agreement, and all it represents, are threatened by violent men on two sides. These men play into one another's hands; both their language and their actions are increasingly similar. They are trying to keep hate and fear alive in this country because they feed on hate and fear. They are likely to seek, in the months to come, to wear down the patience and the nerve of those who reached agreement at Sunningdale. I am confident that they will no succeed in this desperate enterprise. They will not succeed because there is at last coming into being, on a firm basis, a working understanding of the centre, representing the united strength of the sensible elements in this island, drawn from both communities and both traditions of allegiance.

There is good reason to believe that by a very great majority the people of this island approve of what was agreed at Sunningdale and will support the institutions deriving from that agreement. Here I would like to express my appreciation of the constructive response of the Press here, irrespective of party, to the Sunningdale agreement. I hope and I believe that this debate also will strengthen the Sunningdale agreement by showing that there is a strong consensus in the Dáil in favour of this agreement.

I have no doubt that many persons reading the agreement will criticise parts of it in isolation from the remainder. That is not the way in which it can be read. This agreement is a unit. No one part of it can be taken in isolation from the other parts. Those who say they do not want the statements on the status of Northern Ireland must also say that they do not want a Council of Ireland. The policing, human rights and law reform proposals are equally part of the totality of the agreement. In particular, anyone who contemplates rejecting the agreement should remember, that without that agreement—and I mean the whole of that agreement—the power-sharing Executive in the North, could not come into being. I would ask Deputies and the people of Ireland to regard it in the light of these remarks —which is the way in which it was negotiated and accepted by the two Governments and three other parties at the conference. And I would ask, in particular, that when debating it Deputies should remember that lives depend on the way the agreement is interpreted and implemented.

The next stage—the more formal stage of the tripartite talks will take place early in the new year. In the meantime the Northern Ireland Executive will have been appointed and power will have been devolved by Westminster to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Council of Ireland will be constituted following the resumed tripartite conference at which a formal agreement will be reached between the sovereign Governments concerned.

As I have said, I think it is generally agreed by most of the public that the outcome of the historic Sunningdale negotiations was an encouraging one. What was even more encouraging for all of us who were present there was the spirit in which the negotiations were conducted and in which the outcome was received. In the course of the very close negotiations, including one negotiation that went on all night, the parties concerned showed remarkable patience, as well as a tenacity that put the patience of their partners also to the test.

The British Prime Minister, Mr. Heath, showed his sense of the importance of these proceedings by the assiduity with which he took part in the conference, and the notable personal contribution which he made to them. The three partners to the Northern Ireland Executive—Mr. Faulkner's Unionists, the SDLP and the Alliance parties—constituted in effect the key-stone of the Sunningdale agreement. Without their previous historic agreement to share power in an Executive, nothing which subsequently took place would have become possible. In the proceedings at Sunningdale they showed the same resource and the same combination of firmness and flexibility that had enabled the Executive to come into being.

My own delegation also played its full part in the negotiating process that led to agreement. But the most encouraging thing of all about Sunningdale was the reaction of all delegates when agreement was finally reached. All delegations, and I believe every member of every delegation was genuinely and spontaneously happy at the outcome, and this was visible and audible around us on the afternoon the agreement was signed. There were, as I had hoped there would be, no winners and no losers. But something had come about by which we can all stand to win; that is an increase in mutual confidence and mutual respect. On that we intend to build effective co-operation in the future.

Following the sluggish performance of the economy in the three years 1970-1972 when the growth rate averaged only 3 per cent—a figure well below national productive capacity—activity has speeded up and the growth rate this year is likely to be of the order of 6 per cent.

This improvement has been due mainly to the vigorous fiscal policies of the Government designed to take up the slack that had been allowed to develop in the three preceding years. The Government have injected into the economy substantial sums on both capital and current account to give a boost to growth. Estimated current expenditure for 1973-74 stands some £141 million above its level in the last fiscal year and at the same time capital expenditure has been increased by £43 million. The financing of these large additional expenditures has been so arranged that the net borrowing requirement at £193 million is some £72 million above its 1972-73 level. The addition to purchasing power brought about in this way is bringing about substantial increases in output and investment.

The value of retail sales rose by 19 per cent in the first eight months of the year while the number of new private motor cars registered rose by over 20 per cent in the period January to October. Exports rose in value by about 34 per cent in the first ten months of the year. Tourist receipts have also been increasing.

Consumer demand generally is estimated to have grown in volume by over 7 per cent in the period January-September. This expansion is welcome for the increase it means in living standards and general well-being, but it can take place safely only when it does not unduly encroach on the resources available for investment or cause an immoderate external deficit. These dangers are not at present manifest, but it is worth bearing in mind that we can enjoy high levels of consumption only as long as they are accompanied by high exports.

The increased pace of economic activity has generated higher imports. The major increase was, however, in materials for further production and in capital goods. This augurs well for economic activity over the coming months. At the same time, exports are also running at a high level and the prospects are good for an acceptable out-turn to the balance of payments for the year.

A disquieting feature of the economic situation is the incidence of inflation. The extent of our inflation is reflected in the very high rise of 11.2 per cent in the consumer price index in the year to August last, following 11.7 per cent at mid-May and 10 per cent at mid-February. While there was a slight easing in the rate of increase at mid-August, inflationary pressures both at home and abroad are still strong and no significant improvement is likely for some time having regard to the impact of higher oil prices on a wide range of goods and services.

It is important to distinguish between the external factors and the domestic factors behind the increase in the level of our consumer prices. Food prices have accounted for the major share of the increase, and while this has been partly due to domestic reasons, the dominating factors have been the world shortage of meat and other basic foods which led to an exceptional rise in prices. In fact, import prices have generated more than one-third of the total increase in prices.

As to the non-food items, the main source of the rise in prices has been the excessive increases in non-agricultural incomes. Two main categories of income are concerned here —profits and pay—and the aim of our counter-inflationary policy is to ensure that their contribution to inflation is moderated. The Government's price control policy is making an important contribution to that end. We are determined to ensure that excessive price increases do not occur. We expect firms to absorb as far as possible, through increased productivity, increased costs whether for labour or non-labour items. The National Prices Commission lay special emphasis on this principle when considering applications for price increases, and there is a clear obligation on both management and employees to ensure that the potential for improving productivity is fully exploited.

The House is also aware that the Minister for Industry and Commerce recently made a number of statutory orders controlling prices and profit margins for a wide range of goods. These affect retailers and also importers and wholesalers. In addition, the period of advance notice required for proposed price increases has been increased from one to two months. The list of goods, whose prices must be displayed in retailers' premises, has also been extended so as to assist housewives in price comparisons between shops.

These measures strengthen the price control machinery significantly. To ensure that they will be strictly enforced, the number of price inspectors in the Department of Industry and Commerce is being increased. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is keeping the situation under constant review and will not hesitate to introduce any further necessary and practicable measures.

Apart from price control, other steps to protect the consumer are being taken. A National Consumer Advisory Council has been established and further legislation on consumer protection is envisaged. The views of the National Prices Commission on this matter will be given full weight.

As regards wages and salaries, increases since 1970 have largely been determined under the terms of the national agreements of 1970 and 1972. The Government are committed to complying with the terms of these agreements, and they have been complied with in the determination of the increases in pay awarded to the public service members of the judiciary and to the Members of the Oireachtas. The agreements reflect collective decisions by the vast majority of Irish workers and employers and it is in the national interest that they be maintained and supported by all, and not undermined by the actions of sectional interests. This principle prompted the Government to introduce the legislation to control the remuneration and conditions of employment of banks staff which received unanimous support in this House.

The Government favour the voluntary negotiation of a further national agreement. Like its predecessors, this should facilitate an orderly development of incomes and the achievement of the important social aim of improving the position of the lower-paid. It is doubtful whether free collective bargaining, without the framework of national agreements, would do as much to achieve this end.

The negotiation of a further agreement which will contribute to the achievement of both economic and social objectives is a vital element if the community is to achieve continued economic growth with more employment, a slowing down in the rise in prices and better industrial relations.

The management of monetary policy will require care and continuous review in order to maintain a reasonable balance between the diverse forces at work in the economy. Last year the total amount of bank credit increased by £320 million. While the measures introduced by the Central Bank in February had a moderating effect, the demand for credit remains strong. The present aim of policy is to ensure a moderate rate of credit expansion sufficient to meet the reasonable needs this year of the public.

Interest rates have moved strongly upwards during the year and now stand at historically high levels. Our preference would be for lower rates but we are not immune from international movements and the openness of our economy means that there are strong influences tending to equalise rates between this country and Britain. Our policy in this situation is directed at ensuring that rates here are no higher than is absolutely necessary.

Our external reserve position is strong and is not expected to cause concern. The seasonal fall in the early part of the year has been reversed and it is expected that our reserves will show little overall change for the year as a whole.

Economic and other problems continue to cause uncertainties and upsets on the international monetary scene. They have generated large movements of funds putting pressure on exchange markets. These difficulties show no prospect of diminishing and will, in fact, probably be accentuated by the likely increased balance of payments of oil-producing countries and large deficits elsewhere.

The Committee of Twenty of the IMF are continuing their efforts to find a reformed monetary system to replace the existing Bretton Woods system, which has proved inadequate to meet the changing situation in recent years. Progress has been slow, but this has to be expected, given the complexity of the issues involved. However, the Committee of Twenty, meeting in Nairobi on the occasion of the annual general meeting of the IMF, in order to give an impetus to the work, fixed 31st July, 1974, as a deadline for settling the issues of reform.

Predicting future economic trends is at all times a hazardous business. This year the hazards are multiplied a hundred-fold by the uncertainties about the effects of the oil situation on our economy. I would here like to add my weight to the appeal of the Minister for Transport and Power for moderation in the use of oil to which the public now seem to be responding well. The Minister will keep the public informed of developments in that regard.

The present position was fully covered by the Minister and by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the Dáil yesterday. Up to now we have had a shortfall of about 15 per cent in supplies. The reports now coming in to us put the shortage in oil supplies as high as 30 per cent. A shortage of this magnitude would give rise to serious problems.

In addition to present difficulties about oil supplies, Deputies will have noticed that some of the world's economic prophets have recently been forecasting a substantial down-turn in economic growth in the developed world. The scale of the reduction in oil supplies in the years immediately ahead could accentuate the down-turn to the point of "non-growth".

We here cannot insulate ourselves from the effect of major world economic trends. In fact we have one of the most open economies in the world and we are subject to the effects of all major world economic trends, for example, the steeply rising cost of finance over the past year. The Government, however, have no intention of sitting back and allowing things to happen to the country—in the economic sense. We have set up a Cabinet Sub-Committee on Energy and the Economy consisting of the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, the Minister for Labour, the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Industry and Commerce. This subcommittee will keep the overall economic and growth position under review in the context of developments in oil supplies and other major economic trends.

We hope that the situation will not become so serious that jobs will be threatened, the expansion of the economy halted and, indeed, our standard of living reduced. However, it would be unrealistic not to recognise now that all the possibilities may have to be faced and to make proper provision for them.

We have, of course, already given the ESB the green light to make the initial moves to provide the country with a major new energy source—a nuclear power station.

I may add also that I will be discussing the oil situation, among other topics, with my European colleagues at the summit meeting in Copenhagen later this week.

Since so little concrete information is available at the present time it is necessary, in any review of the likely trends in 1974, to leave the oil situation aside as an imponderable. Provided it does not become unduly serious, the picture for 1974 is reasonably optimistic. In agriculture, we will continue to enjoy a competitive position; our agricultural stocks are at a record level and we can hope for a further marked rise in agricultural exports and incomes.

Of course, the trend of our unit wage costs will be of paramount significance. The rapid increase in industrial output which appears to have taken place in 1973 has increased productivity considerably and reduced unit wage costs. If income increases in the coming months are kept at a moderate level, this beneficial trend will be reinforced, with all that this implies for increased employment and real incomes for our community.

What has been achieved during 1973 has been noteworthy and living standards have been significantly raised. We must make every effort to consolidate and improve upon these gains in 1974.

In general, I may summarise by saying that the Government's approach to the management of the economy will not be either inhibited or over-cautious but it will be watchful for the emergence of unwanted side-effects to its policies from home or international events.

Developments in relation to the supply of oil have increased the Government's desire to secure the thorough exploration of our Continental Shelf for oil and natural gas. The present position is that about 30 per cent of our shelf is held under exclusive licence by one company and detailed exploration and drilling are being carried out in this area. The company have made a discovery of natural gas off the Cork coast in the Kinsale Head area and discussions are taking place about the possible utilisation of the gas should the field prove to be commercially exploitable. The remainder of our shelf area is being explored by about 50 holders of non-exclusive exploration licences and policy and procedures for the granting of exclusive facilities for this area are at present being formulated. Surveys carried out to date show that there are many promising structures in our shelf area which provide a strong basis for the hope that substantial oil and gas deposits will be found. Very extensive prospecting and drilling is, however, necessary before the presence of oil or gas in commercial quantities can be established and it takes three to four years to develop any commercial discovery made. In the long term, the discovery and development of a commercial oil or gas field could be of considerable help in easing our energy supply situation, but no relief could at present be expected from this source, having regard to the time taken to discover and develop a field.

The pace of economic advance is reflected in particular in the number of new industrial projects. Projects approved by the Industrial Development Authority in the financial year 1972-73 generated 14,139 jobs which was just over the target of 14,000 for the year. The total approved in the seven months period ended 31st October, 1973, was 7,900, that is, 49 per cent of the targeted 16,000 for the year. It is expected that by the end of December, the authority will have approved another 4,000 jobs and will have reached just short of 75 per cent of the target for 1973-74. The authority is confident that the job creation target for 1973-74 will be met, subject to all the uncertainties on the international front, which I have mentioned earlier.

One of the welcome features of activity in 1972-73 was the increased proportion of jobs created in existing industry. Out of the 14,139 jobs approved, 44 per cent were from domestic sources. The commitment of the Industrial Development Authority to the restructuring of Irish industry is demonstrated by the approval last year of £11 million in re-equipment grants to Irish firms. This trend is being continued this year, and during the period 1st April, 1973, to 31st October, the authority approved re-equipment grants totalling £9 million.

A second welcome feature of the year's outcome was the growing number of high technology industries coming to Ireland and opening up new opportunities for graduates, technicians and skilled workers. This is evidenced also by the greater capital investment per worker which was 70 per cent above the investment for the preceding year.

A further satisfactory outcome of the year's activities was the much better distribution of new industry across the country. The Industrial Development Authority regional plans see a marked shift of new job opportunities in favour of the four less-developed regions of Donegal, northwest, west and midlands. Job approvals in these areas during 1972-73 accounted for 29.2 per cent of new jobs approved compared with a targeted share of 20.6 per cent over the five years plan period.

Ireland's enhanced attraction as a manufacturing basis in the European Community has been the central theme of international promotion. The prospect of EEC entry stimulated the rapid acceleration of 60 per cent in job approvals by the Industrial Development Authority in new industry from the recession level of 1971-72. The decision of the Commission of the European Community earlier this year not to designate any part of Ireland as a central or developed area has removed uncertainty about our ability to offer the present package of industrial incentives throughout the State. Positive community decision has come at a good time, as there is now a notably greater European interest in Ireland as an attractive location for their projects, without the problems of congestion and labour shortages experienced in many of the major European industrial centres.

The industrial drive in the United States where the Industrial Development Authority is seeking projects to provide 6,000 jobs this year has been threatened by uncertainty deriving from the US Treasury tax proposals. The Minister for Industry and Commerce went to Washington last June and put the case for modifying the proposals to key figures in Congress and the Administration. It now seems unlikely that there will be any significant changes in the US foreign investment tax laws during the next year or so.

Notwithstanding the uncertainty surrounding US tax and our incentives during the summer months, the authority is now confident that US investment will continue to be a major component in overall industrial development in Ireland during our present five year programme. I may add that American projects accounted for 38 per cent of the jobs approved this year to date under the new industry programme.

During the three months ended March, 1973, there was a marked improvement in the level of inquiries from United Kingdom industrialists interested in establishing in Ireland. This was coupled with a major promotional campaign by the Industrial Development Authority at the end of the financial year 1972-73. During the seven months of the current financial year the authority approved 16 new United Kingdom projects involving a job potential of over 3,000 and an investment of £40 million. This, I may say, includes the Courtaulds project with potential employment of 1,800 and a capital investment of £35 million. I hope that the agreement reached at Sunningdale in the last week further improves the climate for investment by industrialists in our country.

For many years the basic problem in agriculture was to improve the economic and thus the social position of farmers and their families to enable them to share in the country's growing prosperity. Government intervention was necessary to support farm prices, reduce the cost of inputs and provide incentive schemes to promote increased production and efficiency.

The great improvement in farm prices which has taken place since our accession to the European Economic Community has greatly reduced the burden on the Exchequer and has enabled farmers to secure better incomes directly from the market. The operation of the EEC price system and the general advance of prices for agricultural production on world markets means that farm production can now be expanded without the traditional risk that increased production would result in reduced prices to producers or new restrictions in export markets. Farmers are feeling the effects of this in their pockets today and, in fact, their prices have been rising even faster than was anticipated. Fortunately for the country, they are taking advantage rapidly and wisely of these new prices and opportunities. They are reinvesting a high proportion of the increased earnings in their own farms for productive purposes. Of particular importance is the fact that they are extending their breeding herds at an impressive rate, a development which augurs well for future production of meat and milk and it is in such products that we expect our comparative advantage over other Community countries will lie.

Agriculture's remarkable progress is reflected in the figures. The volume of agricultural output last year increased by almost 4 per cent. The cattle breeding herd expanded by almost a quarter of a million. Agricultural prices were up by some 20 per cent and the increase this year is expected to be even higher. Agricultural exports were up by £36 million and a further large increase is expected this year. Farm income last year increased by more than one-third and it is projected that a further substantial increase will be achieved this year. This rise in income as well as improving the standard of living of the rural community as a whole, will greatly augment the resources available to farmers for new investment in their own holdings.

The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister for Lands, working with the European Economic Community will be particularly concerned with farm structure and development aspects of agriculture. In these sectors some of the more important objectives in the years ahead will be to direct new investment as far as possible to potentially viable and developing farms and to ensure that, as our agriculture becomes more intensive and more exacting, as much of our land as possible will be transferred to younger qualified farmers. Schemes which have been drawn up in pursuance of these objectives are at present being discussed with the authorities in Brussels and will be introduced very early in the new year. The Minister for Lands has announced recently the basic features of his proposed pension scheme for farmers under EEC directive 160. It is proposed to provide a life pension to farmers over 55 years of age who surrender their lands for the benefit of developing farmers. The pension will be £600 a year for a married farmer and £400 a year for a single farmer over that age. In addition, a substantial premium will be payable to all farmers who give up their lands for the same purposes. Another objective is to promote measures to sustain the viability of mountainous and other less favoured areas in accordance with the proposed programme recently approved in principle by the Council of Ministers and on which the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries displayed such extraordinary energy and determination.

The common agricultural policy of the EEC has been the subject of some criticism during the past year and of speculation as to how it might be reformed. We have firmly supported the decision adopted in the context of the multilateral trade negotiations that there should be no change in the basic principles of that policy and this remains the Government's view. This will also be our approach to the EEC Commission's recent suggestions for amending the policy which are at present being examined by member states.

While it is true that the people who benefit most immediately from the new agricultural situation are the farmers themselves, the community as a whole also stand to benefit immensely in our increasingly integrated society. It is Government policy to help and encourage this development in every way.

It would be inappropriate for me on this occasion to omit mention of the increases in the rates of social assistance and benefit announced by the Minister for Finance in his first budget. These increases granted in accordance with the Government's programme were larger in scale than any similar increases granted before in this country. Since then the Minister for Health and Social Welfare has announced further improvements and advances. In many instances they brought the rates of payment up to a level equal to, if not greater than, those operating in Northern Ireland and in Britain.

The Department of the Public Service was established as from the 1st November, 1973. Generally, the Department will deal with the terms and conditions of service and numbers of civil servants, automatic data processing in the public service, the pay and allowances of members of the Defence Forces, the terms and conditions of service of the Garda Síochána, teachers, civilian employees and industrial employees. It will also deal with fees and remuneration generally, for example, for consultants and members of the boards of State-sponsored bodies.

I need hardly mention that apart from work on the proposals of the Public Services Organisation Review Group, the Department, like many others, will have a considerable role to play in the measures to be taken for the establishment of a Council of Ireland.

The general function of the Government Information Services up to now has been to receive and process Press queries, requests for Ministerial interviews, and to distribute Government statements and ministerial speeches. There have been complaints from the media about delays in answering queries, and in the general availability of immediate authoritative comment on matters of current importance.

During the year 1972-73, the information services in my Department were seriously understaffed. This, in part, explains the delay and other difficulties which the media experienced. Another reason for the general position was that information activity as part of the Governmental process was not given a high enough priority, and, indeed, tended to be relegated to a peripheral position. Since assuming office, the Government have been reviewing the whole communications process with a view to the effective dissemination of Government policy both within Government and to the general public. We have decided that the employment of public relations services is not the most desirable way of dealing effectively with the making known of Government policy decisions. A communications process must form an integral part of Governmental structures. This process requires co-ordination and direction; co-ordination as between the Government Departments and direction from the Government. It is for this reason that, as I have already indicated, the general direction of Government information and publicity has been assigned to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It is logical, however, that as the central information area, the Government Information Services should be situated close to the centre of Government, proximate to the Government secretariat.

The appointment of an Assistant Secretary in my Department to act as head of the Government Information Services is in line with this thinking. This will ensure a constant flow of information from the centre out. The positioning of the information services within my Department allows for the necessary co-ordination between the informational outputs of all Departments. The establishment of this co-ordination is currently in progress and, in relation to the foreign Press, there is a close working relationship between the Information Services and the Information Section in the Department of Foreign Affairs, an advantageous one let me say. The two Departments are currently examining how best our point of view can be disseminated abroad. As a result of a public advertisement some months ago, we have now filled the existing vacancies in the Government Information Services and have brought the service up to strength.

My Department have recently installed a telex service to facilitate the communication process, and a service is also available for journalists to file stories. We have also installed the services of the Press Association Wire Services to monitor world news.

The Government Information Services have been involved in a new approach to Government advertising, and an information manual will shortly be introduced within the public service which will be of assistance to civil servants in the preparation of material for distribution to the public. The whole question of the amount and type and efficacy of Government advertising is being looked into.

Our information policy is based on the belief that we must make our policies and decisions known as quickly and effectively as possible— it is part of our commitment to "open" government.

On an occasion like this when the major political and economic trends affecting our lives are being debated it has not been usual to turn to cultural affairs. Deputies will be aware of the proposals I have put forward for the reform of An Chomhairle Ealaíon, contained in the Arts Bill, 1973. The proposals in the Bill have been debated fully by both Houses and I do not intend to go in detail into them here. It will, I think, suffice for me to say that I intend the reconstituted council to be large enough and sufficiently representative of the different interests to make a worthwhile contribution to the development of the arts in Ireland.

I would now like to turn to the subject of reform of parliamentary procedures. This is a matter to which the Government have been giving particular attention since we assumed office. As Deputies are aware, an informal committee of the Dáil reported in December, 1972, on the reform of Dáil procedures. The recommendation of this committee relating to the rotation of the order of Ministers answering questions has been implemented already. The Government are in favour of the implementation of the other recommendation contained in the report. Two of the recommendations contained in the report are of particular importance. In order to ease the pressure on the time of the House, the Committee recommended that more Bills should be taken in special committee, these committees to be established on an ad hoc basis. The report stated that the Bills to be referred to special committees should be selected by the Whips. The Government would be anxious to see that, as a matter of principle, all Bills would be sent to special committees unless there was some valid reason to adopt the present practice for the Committee Stage of proposed legislation.

In addition, the Government have been considering suggestions which have been made in recent years that the establishment of more specialised select committees of the Dáil and Seanad should be proceeded with, with a view to giving the Oireachtas a greater role in certain areas of the economy. The Government would, for example, be disposed to favour the establishment of such a committee to examine and report on the activities of State-sponsored bodies. Members would, in this way, become more familiar with the operations of these bodies but there would be no question of parliamentary interference with their day-to-day management. These committees would have power to send for papers, persons and records, to take evidence in public and to employ expert advisors.

The other recommendation of the informal committee to which I would like to refer relates to the procedure to be followed for debating matters of urgent public importance. The criticism has been made in the past that, when urgent matters arise, the Dáil cannot readily address itself to them because of its pre-occupation with legislative and financial business and that, when these issues are widely discussed in the Press, on television and radio, it may appear to the public at large that the House is not concerned about them. The committee recommend that the Standing Order governing debate on such matters should be amended to facilitate, more readily, debate in the House on such issues. This amendment might also allow a Minister to make statements in the Dáil on matters of public interest or importance. The Government are anxious to see this recommendation implemented as soon as possible.

Finally, I would like to refer to the present system of election to the Seanad. Clearly, the system could be reformed in a number of respects and the Government would be anxious to see the matter examined. I do not wish to suggest that the reforms I have dealt with are the complete answer to the problems that confront a democratic institution such as ours in modern times. The Government believe, however, that these reforms are moves in the right direction. Their detailed implementation has been referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

This has been a good year. A great national step forward has been made in the Sunningdale agreement with the sole purpose of enabling Irishmen, no matter of what religion, to run their affairs. The agreement was made by putting aside past prejudices and refusing to allow illusory day dreams of the future to prevent all concerned from dealing with the realities of the present. The realities of the present are what matter. We cannot change the past, no more than we can form the ultimate shape of the future. We can and must do our duty in the present. I hope it will be possible in the future to say the same as I have said about the past year, that is, that it has been a good year. I hope it will always be possible to say the same.

The Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Lynch.

As a matter of clarification I want to ask the Taoiseach——

No. The Leader of the Opposition.

In order to facilitate the debate later on could I, with your permission, ask the Taoiseach in regard to the Sunningdale talks and the communique, so described, will there be a specific debate on it at a later stage and, if so, will it be before any further signing and will there be a document formally before the Dáil?

The Deputy may refer to this matter when he is speaking. The Leader of the Opposition.

I am asking the Taoiseach for guidance.

The Leader of the Opposition.

The Deputy will be free to speak in this debate.

I am asking the Taoiseach will there be an opportunity——

Questions may not be asked at this stage as the Deputy is aware.

I understand they can.

There will not be another debate before Christmas.

I know there will not be another debate before Christmas but will there be another debate on the talks?

Deputy Blaney must give way to the Leader of the Opposition.

I want to know this and I believe I am entitled to know it for the benefit of the debate.

The Deputy will be entitled to speak in due course. The Deputy is well aware that this is not the time to ask questions.

When I was Minister I was asked questions on many occasions after introducing my Estimate. I answered them, as did other Ministers.

At the end of the debate the Minister answers questions.

Will we have another debate? That is what I want to know.

My first reaction is, and I am sure that of very many people throughout the country will be, one of grave disappointment at the Taoiseach's speech, especially that part which deals with the Sunningdale talks. In view of the great interest which the country North and South expressed in these talks one would be excused for expecting to get, to say the very least of it, much more information from the Taoiseach than he was prepared to give this afternoon. I say that genuinely and in no sense of carping criticism.

It is rather paradoxical that in a 27-page script the Taoiseach used only four pages to deal with the Sunningdale talks and the agreed communiqué coming from there. At the same time he used almost three pages of that script in referring to the need for better dissemination of information about Government activities. I certainly cannot reconcile the sentiments expressed in the part of the speech dealing with dissemination of information and the improvement of the means whereby information on the Government's activities can be given to the public and the amount of information he has given us on the very crucial subject of the Sunningdale talks.

I have certain comments to make. They will be constructive. I want to say at the outset that I hope to see the practical proposals agreed to in Sunningdale implemented. This party will facilitate their implementation. There are matters to which I should like to refer in the first instance. I want to preface my remarks by saying that we in Fianna Fáil welcome any acceptable arrangement which fosters co-operation between Irishmen of different political traditions. We hope to see emerging from the Sunningdale talks from the agreed communiqué, institutions which will guarantee the same civil rights to all Irish people, institutions which will outlaw violence directed against any section of the Irish people and which will develop the economic, social and political progress of our country.

We also want to see a new framework which will accommodate people of different political aspirations and which will be capable of evolution by agreement. Subject to some reservations to which I will refer in a moment, we see in the agreed communiqué from Sunningdale the possibility of such development of such institutions which will promote the objectives to which I have referred. I do not want to make any narrow political party point or try to take any political advantage out of the subject matter of this debate, or out of the subject matter of the Sunningdale talks and the objectives and the aims they were established to attain.

We have supported the main practical proposals that have come from them, and they are proposals at this stage. I am not saying this to try to take credit, because we appreciated the approach of the then Opposition on this question and in maintaining it to be above party politics. That has been our attitude in Opposition as well.

We advocated long before the Northern Assembly elections that there should be an administration in the North to replace Stormont which would have in it representatives of the minority tradition in Northern Ireland, with power-sharing as an important ingredient of it. In my talks with Mr. Heath, and they were many, I consistently advocated the establishment of a Council of Ireland, a Council of Ireland that would have executive functions, a council that would be capable of evolution. These two things are the positive proposals coming from the Sunningdale talks, even though the one is already established, that is, the Northern Ireland Administration, but the actual appointment of the Executive of that Administration is dependent on the outcome of these talks, dependent on the formulation of the Council of Ireland.

At this stage I would like to say that I fully recognise the difficulties which faced each party in the tripartite talks. I know that their task was not easy and I for one was not impatient by any means that after four days, even with an all-night session, there still seemed to be some doubt that agreement would come from the talks. It is very difficult in four days to solve the problems built up over many hundreds of years before. Of course, the Sunningdale communiqué did not solve all the problems. Many remain to be solved but I appreciated that no side could expect to get agreement in toto to what it proposed, to the points it made, to the hopes it had and especially when in these tripartite talks there was one part of that tripartite set-up which in itself was a tripartite delegation.

I am saying this in recognition of the difficulties which I know faced the delegates but, notwithstanding that, we were assured by the Taoiseach that none of them was asked to compromise his position, no attempt was made to compromise any other and I think I can quote at this stage from the agreed communiqué which I think is important. It is recorded in paragraph 3, in the first sentence that the Taoiseach said the basic principle of the conference was that the participants had tried to see what measure of agreement of benefit to all the people concerned be secured and—and this is the part I want to refer to in particular: "none had compromised and none had asked others to compromise, in relation to basic aspirations". That is a statisfactory statement. The paragraph goes on:

The people of the Republic together with a minority in Northern Ireland, as represented by the SDLP delegation, continued to uphold the aspiration towards a united Ireland. The only unity they wanted to see was a unity established by consent.

I agree with and accept wholeheartedly these sentiments.

At this point I would like to mention the first reservation which I have already mentioned in public. Paragraph 5 was presented and laid out in the newspapers, as we read them on Monday and before those of us who were here in Ireland had any opportunity of receiving the official communiqué or a copy of it, one line following another. People read it naturally in the context of its lay-out as we saw it in the newspapers. The first sentence of that paragraph referred to the Irish Government's acceptance and solemn declaration that there could be no change in the status of Northern Ireland until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland desired a change in that status. Following immediately on it came the British Government's declaration that it was and would remain their policy to support the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland, and then came the sentence "The present status of Northern Ireland is that it is part of the United Kingdom." Following that came what, I think, was admittedly an advance on the British situation as it has obtained hitherto: "If, in the future the majority of the people of Northern Ireland should indicate a wish to become part of a United Ireland, the British Government would support that wish."

This, Sir, is an advance on the previous position which emanated only in recent years—that they would not oppose it; but taking the paragraph as it read in the newspapers, one sentence following under the other, one immediately asked what was the interpretation of status in the Irish declaration when one read further down in that part of the English declaration the statement that the present status of Northern Ireland is that it is part of the United Kingdom—that genuinely concerned many people.

The next day, Tuesday, some of us at least had an opportunity of seeing the official text and paragraph 5 was then laid out in a way different from that in which it was laid out in the newspapers—the Irish declaration on one side and the British declaration on the other. That was reproduced in one of our daily papers so that I imagine many people who had not seen the official copy of the communiqué will have seen the layout. It would seem that these are two separate declarations. To what extent one binds the other is a matter for clarification, but taking the Irish Government's acceptance and declaration that there could be no change in the status of Northern Ireland, one could accept this as stating the position, the factual position, that has obtained over many years.

It has been the common policy in this country of all political parties represented here that the reunification of the country can come about only by peaceful means and that implies procuring the consent of all those who would subscribe to that objective, and if that is a statement of that objective, a statement of the position as it is in order to obtain that objective, then it would seem to be consistent with what has obtained and what has been accepted hitherto. But the question is asked and must be asked: Taking the contrary interpretation, would it and if so, how does it impinge on Article 2 of the Constitution which declares the national territory as being the whole island of Ireland? A reasonable interpretation could be, as I indicated, an acceptance of the factual position that has obtained hitherto, that is, that we want to unite our brethren in Northern Ireland but the unity we want is by peaceful means, thereby and therefore implying their consent to that unity in peace and in justice. There, Sir, is I think, a genuine and serious reservation which very many people in the country have, one that I would have expected some clarification of and one on which, indeed, people will expect some clarification.

We proceed then to paragraph 6. Here it is necessary for the benefit of the public to indicate, I think, that we here in this House are seriously concerned about the implications of the agreement. Paragraph 6 says:

The conference agreed that a formal agreement incorporating the declarations of the British and Irish Governments would be signed at the formal stage of the conference and registered at the United Nations.

That paragraph coming immediately after paragraph 5 and the very wording of the paragraph—"that a formal agreement, incorporating the declarations of the British and Irish Governments"—would seem to imply that in so far as any document could be registered with the United Nations it would be limited to the declarations in paragraph 5. That raises other questions to which I shall refer in a moment.

I understand that the interpretation intended was that not only would this declaration contained in that paragraph of that agreement be registered but the other part of the communiqué as ultimately reduced to an agreement would also be part of the document to be lodged in the United Nations. What was the purpose, one might ask, of having the document lodged in the United Nations? If a document comprising an international agreement is so lodged there are two courses: one, the agreement so lodged must be laid on the Table of the House and, secondly, it must be approved by the House. That is referred to in Article 29, paragraph 5, subparagraphs (1) and (2) of our Constitution. Article 29.5.1º reads:

Every international agreement to which the State becomes a party shall be laid before Dáil Éireann.

If only that part of the agreement comprised in paragraph 5 is laid that would seem to preclude the need for approval by Dáil Éireann. On the other hand, the other parts of the agreement to which I shall refer later, the parts of the agreement which would set up the Council of Ireland and in connection with which there would be the obligation on the Exchequer to make payments to that council for its workings, these too would have to receive the approval of Dáil Éireann. Subparagraph 2 of paragraph 5 of Article 29 reads:

The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann.

Since it has been agreed to lodge a document with the United Nations I expect—I would be surprised to be informed otherwise—that any agreement so lodged must have the approval of this House. It must certainly have that approval if it imposes a charge on public funds. Therefore, if an agreement as a whole is to be lodged, then that agreement, when it is agreed to, would have to be approved by this House. That is worth pointing out and it may be an answer to the question raised just before I commenced speaking as to whether a debate would be possible on the agreement when ultimately it is come to in this House. On my interpretation, that the entire agreement would be a matter for international agreement, then it must be debated in this House and at that stage, if not before it, we will perhaps have the necessary clarification as to what the terms of the agreement involve.

I do not want to go through the agreement in absolute detail, but merely to raise—I hope in an objective and responsible way—matters on which I should like some clarification. Paragraph 7 deals with the Council of Ireland. This is one of the very important parts of the agreed communiqué. There is there a clear commitment that a Council of Ireland would be set up, that it would have a council of ministers—that is, an Executive—which would have executive and harmonising functions. That is what we advocated and that is what we support. As well as that, there will be a consultative assembly which will have 30 Members from the Northern Assembly and 30 Members from here to be chosen by proportional representation. I take it this would be a choice, not an election. It is important that there should be some indication as to who will make the choice. If it is to be a choice by election we should be told that. These are important matters and, because they are, I am all the more surprised that we have not got any clarification of them.

Coming to the Executive itself, it will be comprised of seven Ministers from each State and they will be bound by an unanimity rule. I mention this in the context of the executive functions that will ultimately be assigned to the Council of Ireland. I think it is paragraph 8 which says that the functions which will be assigned to the Council will be studied by the parties to the agreement; these studies will be on various matters but, in particular, on social, economic and cultural matters. As I understand it, these studies will be carried out expeditiously and will be agreed at the formal conference scheduled to take place early in the New Year and, following on that, certain executive functions will be assigned to the Council of Ireland Executive or to the Council of Ministers.

Because of the unanimity rule it is important that these functions should be assigned in advance, not that I suspect that once they have been assigned the functions of the Council of Ireland will be delimited by what has been done from the beginning because there is provision—it is clear from the last sentence of paragraph 8 —for evolution. It is envisaged that the Council of Ireland will be capable of evolution; in other words, the Oireachtas and the Northern Ireland Assembly would legislate from time to time as to the extent of the functions to be devolved on the Council of Ireland and, where necessary, the British Government will co-operate in this devolution of functions. I read into that—I think there is no other interpretation—that the evolutionary capacity in the Executive context is built into the last paragraph of paragraph 8. I am accepting that. I think it is a reasonable assumption.

When one comes to paragraph 10, however, there is no certainty whatever as to what functions under that paragraph—that is in connection with enforcement of law dealing with crimes of violence—will be assigned to the Council of Ireland. Various proposals were put forward during the conference and it was agreed, because they were so complex, they should be examined by a commission. This is separate from the study groups which are being set up. The study groups are being confined to economic and related matters. Apparently the legal functions of the Council of Ireland will be examined by the commission, in the first instance to find out what, if any, legal functions it should be given, to what extent and to how they could be exercised.

Here I come back to the unanimity rule because it would appear that the commission will take a long time to examine these complex problems. The Council of Ireland, one could reasonably expect, would have been set up before the commission would have reported. Therefore, one is entitled to ask if recommendations are to be made by the commission will they be accepted by the Council of Ireland because the commission has been asked to deal with a number of subjects. First of all, it must deal with law enforcement, whether or not that will be done by way of a single court under the jurisdiction of the Council of Ireland or separate courts operating in separate parts of Ireland. Extradition is also one of the matters which has been referred to this commission.

On extradition certain people in the North have accused our Government —when I say "our Government" I am not referring to the Coalition or to Fianna Fáil—of being dilatory or non co-operative in this matter. It is worth pointing out again that there is no question of the Government exercising a choice in this area. This is a matter, firstly, of an international convention to which we are a party and under the Constitution we are bound by the normal procedures in international agreements. I do not think I need refer to the section. Secondly, our courts are charged with certain responsibilities in relation to extradition proceedings. If a person against whom an order for extradition has been made so wishes he can ask the High Court for an order of habeas corpus annulling an extradition order made by a lower court.

I am talking of political crimes or crimes relating to political matters. Invariably those who have been charged with such crimes have had recourse to the habeas corpus procedure. It is well to point out at this stage that even without specific law which would enable a person to refer his case to the High Court in the event of an extradition order being made against him that person has, under our Constitution, and it was so decided by the Supreme Court in 1956 in a case, Quinn against Ryan, the right to go to the High Court.

I say all this to indicate that the Government had no room to manoeuvre in this matter. They then, naturally, proposed other alternatives, the main one being a special court. However, because of the complexity of that matter the Government undertook to do certain things, that is, to enforce existing legislation be it common law legislation or statutory legislation dating back to 1861 to have brought to justice a person who, having committed a crime of murder in another part of our territory, has been found within the jurisdiction so that he may be charged within the jurisdiction. I do not want to go into any detail about that except that, as I have already suggested, this will raise practical difficulties in relation to the bringing forward of witnesses to give evidence against such a person for the simple reason that our courts do not have jurisdiction in the North of Ireland. Therefore, any order of subpoena they would make would not be binding against a witness living in that part of the country. There are many others. I do not have to go into them here.

I feel sure that it will be found by this commission on examination that there are so many difficulties that it will be very hard to enforce that particular piece of legislation in the manner suggested. That comes back to what I think, and in this regard I agree with the Government, was the most practical suggestion made, that the court should be formed under the aegis of the Council of Ireland, that that court should have jurisdiction over the entire country in certain scheduled areas and that it should not only be a court with criminal jurisdiction but should be a court which would have civil rights and human rights functions.

I was glad to see in the communiqué a reference to the possibility of the European Convention on Human Rights being made applicable in some way or the other to the entire country as it is to the Republic. I would suggest ultimately that this court would be the proper court to enforce human rights that might be alleged to have been breached under the European Convention for Human Rights.

Under the same section comes policing. This is a very difficult area, I accept entirely, whether it comes under a single united Ireland court or separate courts operating in two separate jurisdictions. Much clarification and much information is required about the matter of policing, but again I suggest it would be much simpler if the police north and south are a single police force responsible to the one court in respect of scheduled areas of criminality and certain areas of human rights. That court need not be confined to one or other part of the country. It would be far better that that court would be mobile, mobile to the extent that its jurisdiction would extend north and south. I believe that this commission, when it does report, must inevitably agree with that contention. Again I raise the question, if the commission makes that recommendation or an otherwise workable recommendation with the unanimity rule already established in a Council of Ministers already in existence, will it be possible to empower such a court to function or even to establish it at all.

These are some of the practical problems and some of the other difficulties that this agreement, as we read it, raises for us, and, indeed, for many people throughout the country. There are many other matters that I could talk about but what I have said is a clear enough indication that the communiqué as it stands needs to be explained to the people. If my earlier contention was right that this matter will have to come before the Dáil then, of course, it will have to be explained and examined in detail. I hope that contention is right so that at least we will be bound to have that opportunity of approving whatever international agreement is made.

I think I have dealt with most of the points I intended making. I want to repeat at this stage that I recognise that each party to the conference, to the talks in Sunningdale, could not have expected all their proposals to have been implemented. We in Fianna Fáil would have wished that the agreement would have been more acceptable to us. The positive proposals that are in the agreement we want to see implemented. We want to see that they will work.

There are some who would wish to see the agreement upset and set at nought for a variety of reasons. It may be easy for them and, perhaps, for others who may be less well disposed to pick holes and to find fault. But, there are many people of goodwill who are seeking some reassurance, at least some further information, on some of the points and, perhaps, others that I have raised. I have mentioned only some of the areas which need clarification, particularly with regard to paragraph 5 dealing with status. I know I speak— I do speak—for very many people who genuinely and sincerely want this agreement implemented, who want to see solid progress made out of the talks and, who, therefore, would like to have the real interpretation of the agreement made clear to them.

This is no time for an irresponsible approach. I have put forward on behalf of this party and I believe on behalf of very many people outside who have no affiliations to this party what I regard as a responsible approach. It is no time, certainly, for irresponsible brinkmanship. We do not want to see the northern problem perpetuated to our children and our children's children. We are dealing with people's lives. We are dealing with a serious situation that has existed in Northern Ireland over the past four years. We want to see the end of this bloodshed, most of it unnecessary bloodshed, in fact, all of it unnecessary bloodshed. When I say "most of it" I refer to the unfortunate people who in one way or another were innocent victims, people who had no direct responsibility for whatever activities were taking place in Northern Ireland. We want to see that bloodshed ended. We do not want to see it perpetuated. Certainly, we do not want to see it extended.

We are dealing, therefore, with lives and we are dealing with the peaceful development economically and politically of our country, of our entire country, when we are dealing with this serious matter. I hope, Sir, I have approached it in a responsible way and, again, may I express my disappointment that we have been given so little information about this vitally important matter by the Taoiseach in the course of his opening speech?

I now come to the general trend of the debate that has obtained in recent years. The debate on the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach usually deals with economic matters, with a review of the Government's activities over the previous 12 months and, indeed, perhaps, over the previous period of years. I was rather taken aback by the assertion by the Taoiseach, as if it was an achievement by a performance by his own Government, in his opening paragraph of the economic part of his speech:

Following the sluggish performance of the economy in the three years 1970-1972 when the growth rate averaged only 3 per cent—a figure well below national productive capacity—activity has speeded up and the growth rate this year is likely to be of the order of 6 per cent.

In the ordinary run of the cycle of economics, I should like to ask the Taoiseach in all honesty and all seriousness does he not regard this as being due to the activities of the Government which preceded his? Things do not happen overnight, especially in the economic process and I hope to demonstrate in the remaining part of my remarks that much has been undone and not only has progress not been made but we have been going in many instances in the opposite direction and at this stage I want to give notice that we are going to vote against this motion, leaving aside that part of the Taoiseach's speech which dealt with the Sunningdale conference. That is not in issue. I want to make that perfectly clear at the outset that our vote against the Taoiseach's Estimate is a vote against the economic performance of the Government.

I accept that.

I see some stirrings in the benches over there. Do the two Labour Ministers in the House seriously suggest that there is anything wrong with the statement I have just made? We have made no attempt whatever to suggest that we are opposing the agreed communiqué, opposing what it is hoped to achieve from that agreed communiqué from the Sunningdale conference. I want to make that perfectly clear and let nobody say hereafter that Fianna Fáil when this debate was over voted against the agreed communiqué from Sunningdale. We do not propose to. There are certain matters that we should like explained and we hope we will have explanations of them but at the moment I am dealing with our opposition to the Government's progress and with our disappointment with their performance.

Their incompetence has become particularly evident in their handling, and I would say their mishandling, of economic matters. This incompetence may not yet have become apparent to everybody because as we left office the economy for 1973 was set fair and, indeed, as the Taoiseach's figures have indicated, we left it in good condition. But, even with the Coalition Government the time has not been long enough for them and the economy was too buoyant as a result of our efforts to preclude their doing any damage to it at this stage but this is possible. By reason of their handling of the matters now it is possible that our economy will retard in the years to come and I am leaving aside altogether the difficulties now facing not only this country but the countries of western Europe and, indeed, Japan and the United States of America in relation to the fuel crisis.

Prices are the most glaring example of this ineptitude and I might say this change of tune. We remember, though I am sure the Government would wish us to forget and would wish the country to forget, the promises they made before the election to do something positive about prices, something positive about stabilising prices and their commitment to immediately introduce strict price control. We knew then and we know now that their statements were meaningless and empty. Unfortunately, there were many voters who were deceived into believing that the Coalition would do something to stop the prices spiral. What happens? They did something all right. They did something in the last budget. They removed VAT and they increased taxes otherwise. The tax increases alone in that budget accounted for almost 2 per cent increase in prices but, more than that, because of its spendthrift capacity, having to borrow an increase of some £100 million, it had the economy swamped by a wave of paper money and credit which has impinged further on the upward trend of prices.

This is not all. The other distinction that this Government earned for themselves in the field of prices is that some of their recommendations went even in excess of the amounts suggested or recommended by the Prices Advisory Commission. It is difficult to say with what precision the overall increase in prices can be attributed to Coalition action but taking the 2 per cent increase as a result of direct taxation and the inflationary trend contributed to in the meantime by this spendthrift activity, one could put it at roughly 3 per cent.

There can be little doubt that the Government have been responsible for contributing to the inflationary process by at least that amount. Naturally, they tried to suggest that they have done what they set out to do and point to the fact that in the first period, May to September, while they were in office, prices were actually reduced. They took credit for that even though anything they could have done in that period could not have affected—or only to a very limited extent—price rises.

In the next six months the picture is completely different. Then they blame international trends to which the Taoiseach referred in his opening statement today. This is not merely an irresponsible approach but is childlike, taking credit for what is good and blaming what is bad on something external, world trends. World inflation has been in operation for the past seven, eight or nine years but no credit was given to the Fianna Fáil Government because of the impact of world conditions on our economy. In their attempt to claim credit for the changes they made in VAT they said these would reduce prices by .6 per cent but in the process they increased taxation from VAT by £5 million. Can they suggest that increase in taxation has not an impact on the .6 per cent reduction in VAT? Of course, it has. Nobody can explain a miracle of reducing prices and increasing taxation without one having an effect on the other.

Whatever happened to the legislation the Minister for Industry and Commerce was to introduce to deal with mergers and takeovers?

The Deputy was not present for Question Time today.

I shall wait for the Minister because what I would say might be irrelevant.

It is in the record.

Very well if the Minister will not tell me, I cannot read the record now. I was not in at Question Time and so I shall make my case and the Minister can answer later on. When Fianna Fáil were in Government they introduced draft proposals in this connection. When the Coalition came in the Minister for Foreign Affairs told some Fine Gael merchant tycoons there was nothing in any legislation they proposed that would have any effect on their activities. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was telling his Labour supporters at the same time that he would withdraw the Fianna Fáil Bill because it was too weak and introduce a really effective Bill. I do not know where the balance lies between these two Ministers. Is there to be a Bill? I take it there is.

I shall be speaking in the debate.

At least that will reduce the two red faces to one red face if the Minister can justify his promises. The Minister and his party were vehement about mining taxation. He had a different tune to play when he addressed the Labour conference some three months ago. He did say he would introduce new legislation. I shall not go into it in any depth: I have spoken about it before but we are waiting for this new legislation while Fine Gael are telling their friends not to mind Justin Keating, that they would look after them. The depletion allowances would ensure their profits would be maintained.

The point I want to make is that in order to utilise fully our resources it will be necessary to have a smelter. I wonder what the prospects of a smelter now are and I should like the Minister to elaborate when and if he deals with this matter.

The Minister for Local Government has provided other examples of incompetence and inconsistency. First, he adopted a hard line, even a rather hostile approach to building societies. Later, he subsidises them and again—although, perhaps, he felt rather guilty about this—he issued further threats about the longer-term future position. He followed that up by giving them a loan of £6 million of which we have not yet heard the terms and details although we would like to know them. This £6 million came from some source. The building societies have it but we have not yet got much indication as to where it came from or what terms were attached to it. We are supposed to believe that all this adds up to a housing policy. When the Coalition came into office I believe they were quite happy with the rate of progress envisaged of 17,000 to 20,000 houses per year. What, in effect, happened? Last year 21,000 houses were built and this year, under the Fianna Fáil programme, it was intended to build 24,000 houses. The Coalition decided to do an "Annie get your Gun" act—anything you can do I can do better. They picked the next convenient figure over 24,000 and said they would have 25,000 houses. Then we were to have a crash programme. I do not know what a crash programme is or the juxtaposition of the two words but it seems to me——

(Interruptions.)

Is it a crash programme or a housing programme that has crashed? So far we do not know by what means the 25,000 houses will be built. If they are built, will we have disruption and will we again have this peak and valley sequence in house building? For many years we wanted to ensure steady progress to avoid valleys and peaks. The building industry had confidence in us for that reason. They had not confidence in previous Coalition Governments. The Coalition Government would be better served if, instead of talking about crash programmes in housing, they would ensure that there would be a steady level of growth as we had planned and without any crashes our target of 25,000 would have been reached. One now wonders when it will be reached under the Coalition.

Industrial relations, perhaps, provide another example of the contrast between the Coalition in office and out of office. Free collective bargaining was sacrosanct to members of the Labour Party. Indeed, we all hold it dear but those of us responsible for Government activity felt there were certain times when Government intervention was necessary. Even then the Labour Party raised their hands in horror, no person more so than Deputy O'Leary, Minister for Labour. He was forced to introduce what he would have called "repressive legislation" against workers' rights when he legislated recently against bank officials. How can people reconcile this kind of approach from those who put forward contrary approaches in what appeared to be an honest fashion? Obviously they cannot be taken seriously.

I do not have to refer to the contrast—and I suggest the dangerous precedent created—in the handling of our EEC affairs by the Labour and Fine Gael members in the European Parliament when they voted against each other on what appeared to us a vital matter affecting the interests of our country. I do not think the Coalition have much to boast about after their months in office. We have been accused of not being a virile Opposition but we have not had much opportunity to display our talents. Almost every piece of legislation that has been introduced has been legislation fully prepared, or almost fully prepared, by Fianna Fáil with the single exception of the Electoral Bill introduced by the Minister for Local Government. I will say nothing about that because it has been debated at length——

(Cavan): We heard about the one you had prepared.

I can assure the Minister for Lands that, as Taoiseach, I never saw one line of a proposal of an Electoral Bill before I left office. I say that on my solemn word, standing in this House. I am not going to elaborate on what I have said other than to say that this Government have given way to propagandising themselves rather than achieving solid performances and adopting a realistic approach to the nation's needs.

As I indicated earlier, the Taoiseach's statement had three pages dealing with the activities of the Government Information Services, as against four pages of a script on the vital and important issue of the Sunningdale communiqué. Apparently more money is going to be spent, but let it be spent in a fair and honest way. If the Government want to propagate themselves, let them do so warts and all, and not try to pretend that everything that is going well is to their credit but everything that is going badly is not their responsibility. When the time comes again when we are in Government we will take the credits and the responsibilities, but at the rate they are going the Coalition will find that the responsibilities far outweigh the credits. When we get back the credits will be on the credit side.

The agreement that was reached at Sunningdale has been described by commentators as a truly historic step in the internal history of this island. I was sorely and grievously disappointed by the reception given to it by the Leader of the Opposition. Not once did he say: "I welcome this historic development in the relations between Irishmen." Instead, we had carping, parsimonious parsing of some of the legalistic content of the agreement. One would never think that for generations Irishmen of different persuasions, cultures and traditions have been seeking desperately towards that consensus which the power sharing in the North recognises and which is now recognised to a further stage in the plans for the setting up of a Council of Ireland. The reception given to the agreement by the Leader of the Opposition was carping, small and, I regret to say it, was mean.

The agreement was reached after many hours in Sunningdale but, in fact, those hours do not represent the actual time taken to reach the agreement. It has been the fruit of many months, indeed many years, of agitation, agreement and discussion within Northern Ireland itself. It was an historic achievement because, for the first time, representatives of the differing aspirations, aims and ideals of this country sat down together and, recognising each other's position, reached a consensus.

I am certain that when news of the agreement came to this country it was received with welcome and relief that, at last, there appeared to be a way of ending the tragedy of this island forever. One would have thought that an agreement with such momentous potential and possibilities would be welcomed in the spirit that went into its making, a spirit of reconciliation and patriotism; one would have thought that spirit would be reflected and echoed by the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of the party that claim to be the repository of all things republican. Instead we had a carping, mean reception. This is ironic when one considers that this party make annual pilgrimages to Wolfe Tone's grave at Bodenstown, the man who first uttered the dictum that Irishman means Protestant Catholic and Dissenter. For the first time for centuries Irishmen of that label were able to sit down and reach an agreement. Yet the party that describe themselves——

It would be better not to introduce acrimony in the debate. I did not. The Minister is taking a very dangerous line.

If the Minister is going to take an acrimonious line we will all have something to say on that.

The attitude of the Leader of the Opposition was a sore disappointment——

Will the Taoiseach advise his Minister? Because I will not.

Not once was the word "welcome" used in relation to the agreement. There was unanimous welcome given to the agreement by the media and I would have expected the Leader of the Opposition to be able to follow those signs and generously welcome the new regime which may be dawning for the country. Regrettably, his attitude was the opposite.

I welcomed it publicly. I said I wanted to see it working.

Not once was the word "welcomed" used. I listened very carefully to hear that. There was a wish expressed to see it implemented.

I have advised the Minister not to go on these lines. We do not want to bring acrimony into this debate.

There was no enthusiasm expressed for this new concept, this idea of Irishmen sitting down and working together to end past tragedies. That is the real tragedy of this debate. However, it is not too late; perhaps other Members from the other side of the House may be able to make up for their leader's defects. I doubt it, but we can only hope. It was indicated at the opening of the conference that the parties there represented different traditions, aspirations and ideals. The Taoiseach said that perhaps in the past we had been too obsessed by our catch-cries and our devotion to abstract ideals, without having true and proper regard for the realities of life in this island. He said we had now learned to accept that short of mass conversion or mass repression of one or other aspiration in Ireland there was no simple, one-dimensional solution to the problem of Northern Ireland. He went on to say that to get the solution of the problem there would have to be a growth in different directions, a movement in different directions from the past, that there would have to be a settlement which would foster trust, a settlement in which a political concensus could develop so that all these differing aspirations would find room to exist side by side. He made the point that the trouble in Northern Ireland stemmed from the lack of real political concensus there but that that unhappy situation now appeared to be ending due to the establishment of the power-sharing concept. We have to remember that consensus does not mean the imposition by the majority of its will on the minority and the ready and constant acceptance of that will by the minority. It is something more than that because the minority must be involved in making the concensus. That involvement has now been achieved in Northern Ireland. The next stage is to have a consensus on an all Ireland basis and we hope that the Council of Ireland will prove to be the vehicle for such an all Ireland consensus.

The Taoiseach indicated in his opening remarks at Sunningdale that there were certain things necessary in order to achieve this state of affairs, to cement the consensus in the North and to promote consensus in the island as a whole and that, first of all, there would have to be political institutions which would promote and encourage the growth of this consensus; secondly, that there would have to be a sincere effort to ensure that all those instruments of Government which affect people in their daily lives would not present any positive obstacle to identification with these basic institutions; thirdly, that these institutions would be so constructed that within them there would be scope for differing aspirations to exist so that the essential conflict would be eased and, perhaps, forgotten about in pragmatic discussions of day to day realities, and fourthly, that when these institutions would be fully working there would be a resolute and determined effort by political leaders on all sides to accept them and give them their full support.

I think those requirements summed up the needs of this island in relation to the problems facing us. I think that the agreement in Sunningdale has been an immense step forward towards achieving these objectives. The political institution has been set up which, by its nature, will promote and encourage the growth of consensus. This political institution is the Council of Ireland. Within it there will be equal representation from north and south and there will be a rule of unanimity, again specifically built in to promote this idea of consensus because bear in mind that while there will be equal representation from north and south the fact that some of the northern representation share a common aspiration with the entire southern representation means that there will be, in regard to that particular aspiration, an automatic minority in that institution. Consequently, in line with the spirit of reconciliation and the spirit to achieve consensus, it was agreed that that minority would be protected by the existence of the unanimity rule. I think that was a wise decision and an essential decision if progress is to be made.

And one that I supported publicly.

Progress will have to be made step by step, little by little. For progress to be made it requires not merely the legal machinery. It requires a national spirit as well. While the Leader of the Opposition supported this rule of unanimity he must surely agree with me that for the spirit which it represents to really work and to be really implemented the Council of Ireland must get under way knowing that it has the wholehearted and joyful support of the Republic of Ireland.

It is important that these institutions would leave within themselves scope for the differing aspirations to co-exist until such time as, by consent, change in those aspirations is achieved so that during that period the material well-being of all the people of this island can be fostered and improved and so that the processes of administration and discussion will be facilitated within these institutions. Above all, what we need in this island is peace and it is significant that the outright opposition to the agreement at Sunningdale has come from two extreme and diametrically opposed wings. One of these is the so-called republican wing, the Provisional IRA.

It was common case at Sunningdale between all the parties from this island, and those parties represented far and away the vast majority of the inhabitants of this island, that violence must be ended. Much thought and much discussion was given as to how this might be done effectively at the same time recognising that what was being attempted in Sunningdale was only a beginning and was setting up institutions which, of themselves, represented only a half-way house towards an evolving and differing constitutional position. Nevertheless, it was agreed that there has to be effective measures on an all-Ireland basis to end violence because there was the explicit acceptance by all at that conference that the men of violence were the enemies of this entire island. Consideration was given as to how effective means be brought about to achieve this end. We made it clear, and again this exemplifies the spirit of the conference in which there was respect for each other's position, that the laws on extradition as they at present stand, because of their international connotations, could not be altered by us to provide an easy solution to this problem. So long as there were two jurisdictions on this island that had to be the position. While parties of other allegiances would have liked us to change it they, nevertheless, accepted our position in regard to this.

There was then discussion of this idea of a common court and how it might become effective and how it might be merged with the domestic jurisdictions of the two areas so as to provide a tribunal to deal with the people guilty of violence against the people of Ireland, in whatever part. This was an idea that had acceptance as an idea but the discussion of the implementation of it threw up complex legal problems and it was decided that these should be put to a commission for solution. What eventually the commission will advise we will have to wait and see but, having regard to the spirit of Sunningdale, I certainly see no difficulty in the recommendations of that commission being implemented if for its implementation the confirmation of the council is necessary.

The Leader of the Opposition mentioned the possible difficulty of the application in that context of the rule of unanimity but if this commission proposes ways for dealing effectively with the men of violence, then that Council of Ireland, which will be composed then of people dedicated to the eradication of violence, will surely endorse the commission's recommendations. It would be contrary to the spirit of searching for agreement, of meeting each other's point of view that was so prevalent and prominent at Sunningdale, if that spirit did not imbue all the activities of the council and any subsidiary commissions or bodies. In the meantime as a measure of our goodwill and of the genuineness of our desire to see that men of violence do not escape in any part of this island, because these men are the enemies not only of the people where they commit their crimes but of the entire people of Ireland, we have undertaken to implement that piece of our law which will enable us to try for murder persons who might have committed that crime in Northern Ireland. I am advised that this is something to which immediate legal effect can be given. The Government undertook at Sunningdale to do that and this undertaking will be honoured in the spirit and in the letter as quickly as possible.

However, I want to make it clear that it will be honoured only from now on, that any persons who may have come into this jurisdiction and who may be sought for this heinous crime in the other part of the island will not be affected by this change. It is our opinion that it would be oppressive and inequitable to apply retrospectively such a dramatic change in the law. Furthermore, some such persons may have involved themselves in the extradition process and it would be oppressive to interfere with and terminate that process once a person acceded freely to it. I take the point of the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the Quinn case which provided essentially that no person could be removed from the jurisdiction without having the right of access to the courts within this jurisdiction. The idea of a common court has been put forward but this would not impinge on this principle. It would allow that principle to stand because it would sit within this jurisdiction.

These are some of the ways in which the fight against violence is to be carried on forthwith. I would hope, though, that this fight might not be necessary. Maybe that is a wasteful hope especially when we read of the continuing acts being perpetrated in Northern Ireland and of the intransigent statements that have been made. Neverthelesss, there has been such widespread welcome for this agreement that there is genuine hope and a sense of relief that at last a way has been found that can bring peace to this island, that this widespread and national feeling might begin to impinge on the conscience of these men of violence and might begin to make them look again at their policy, to make them realise the utter futility of their actions and how they can never be successful. It might bring them to the realisation that they can only continue to bring harm, horror and sadness to all of this island. A number in excess of 100 of those men of violence have themselves met with violent deaths. It is to be regretted that this should happen to any Irishman. Surely these people who have a sense of dedication, albeit seriously misguided, will realise that their role in this country would be far more fruitful and constructive if they lived for their country rather than commit themselves to untimely, unnecessary and violent deaths to be commemorated in silly ballads and lugubrious graveyard parades. I would hope that this agreement might call some halt to the activities of these people, that it might persuade them to look again at their activities and reconsider their place in this island. It might bring them to the realisation that they are an invalid and tiny minority. They are invalid in the sense that they inflict on the majority actions for which they have no mandate. Some time ago one of their leaders stated that it was not their policy to seek a confrontation with this State, that to look back in history showed that all such confrontations ended in favour of the State. These were wise words and I suggest that the man concerned would repeat them to the rank and file of his members so that they might come to realise that their activities are utterly futile. They might bear in mind also that with this concept of a Council of Ireland, the idea of a confrontation being limited to this State is no longer so, that because of this all-Ireland dimension which we now have within our affairs, a confrontation, in whatever form it should take, whether it be bombing or the murdering of Irishmen of different allegiances in the other part of Ireland, becomes to all intents and purposes a confrontation with this State.

As that spokesman said all such confrontations end in favour of the State. I would hope that this new dimension in Irish affairs might cause those people to think again. It must be said, though, that if they refuse or fail to think again and if they maintain this confrontation, bearing in mind that we are now talking in an all-Ireland context, that the manifestations of that confrontation, regardless of which part of the island it takes place in, would have to be regarded down here as a confrontation with this State. All I can do is to warn those people that such a situation will not be tolerated because that type of situation inhibits peace and militates against a good future for this island. Any of us who has power to prevent such a situation must use that power. It would be my sincere hope that this would not be the case. Consequently, I make the point that these people, taking a lesson from history, should now begin to accept the futility of their actions and that any of their leaders who have the perceptivity to understand their position in Ireland and in the history of Ireland and to appreciate what has now happened in this country, consequent on Sunningdale, might persuade their more frantic followers that the time for a change has come. A final word to these people is that if they are not prepared to change their way they can be tolerated no longer in any part of this island.

The principal way in which these people will have to be tackled is through the courts but in order to bring them before the courts they must first be detected and arrested. This operation will have to be carried out by the police service in this island. This is a difficult area and one that led to long and protracted negotiations at Sunningdale. The problem was compounded by the failure of many of the minority in Northern Ireland to be able to identify with the police service in that area. Ways were sought by which the Council of Ireland could be identified in some way with the police force in that area so that that section of the population who saw in the Council of Ireland an acknowledgment of their position and their aspirations might begin to realise that, on the other side of the coin, they would have to identify with the institutions which they had up there.

It was agreed that for our part in the Republic to assist in bringing about a situation of identity between the minority population in the north and the police service, we would introduce a parallel structure here, that we would set up a police authority, and that the Council of Ireland would be involved in the setting up of it, in that the Government before appointing its members would consult with the Council of Ireland.

Parallel with this the British Government, who have reserved to themselves powers in the field of policing, agreed that in appointing the police authority for Northern Ireland they would consult with the power-sharing institutions in Northern Ireland, the Executive, and the Members of the Executive designate undertook that they in turn would reciprocate our consultation with the council.

One would hope then that the the members of the authority in each part of the island would represent the consensus wish of the Council of Ireland and would thereby introduce the common element of policing to which the Leader of the Opposition referred as being so desirable. Possibly one may say that at this stage it is far removed legally from a unified police force but, as I said earlier, we have to progress by small stages and this is a small but very significant stage. I would hope that this step would enable the minority in the North to identify with the police service in that area.

There are other reforms to be introduced into the northern police service, reforms designed to get away from the unfavourable image of the past. These reforms are not necessary in our jurisdiction because, happily, there is no problem of identification as between the population here and the gardaí. Nevertheless, if it is felt that as a reciprocal measure and as a gesture of goodwill on our part, and as something which can assist in this pretty difficult problem, of course we would be prepared to consider reciprocal action here.

It was recognised, as the communiqué says, that the two parts of Ireland are inter-dependent to a considerable extent in the whole field of law and order and that the problems of political violence and identification with the police service cannot be solved without taking account of that fact. As I have outlined, this is the way in which that fact has been taken into account. The Council of Ireland will be involved, perhaps, in too tenuous a way and more of us would have liked a more direct involvement, but the spirit of Sunningdale produced this agreement and we accept it in that spirit and recommend it in that spirit.

I can say, too, that it will be in accordance with that spirit that the activities of the police, North and South, in the fight against men of violence, will have to be looked at with a view to their co-ordination to ensure that that fight is effective and successful. I have no doubt that it will be so but, as I indicated earlier, we would prefer not to have to wage that fight. These are the ways in which, within the basic institutions, the council and the Executive, the pragmatic steps will be taken to improve the situation in Ireland.

I have referred to the law and order element of these steps because they will come within my Department and will be of more concern to me than the steps which are being taken in economic and social areas. These will be of equal significance because they will bring practical benefits— benefits in the pockets, benefits in the standard of living—to all the people in this island. To that section of the northern community who feel that their standard of living might be depressed or weakened by having to be in some way associated with this part of Ireland, I would say that it is important that this council and this Executive will be able in measurable material terms to reassure those people that such a fear would be misplaced.

What is needed now above all is for all the people on this island to trust these new institutions to work and to remember that in themselves they do not constitute a full and final and satisfactory solution to all the problems of Ireland, that they are a step on the road towards the eventual solution of these problems. This Council of Ireland is a new concept. It is a delicate political baby which must be allowed to grow in an atmosphere of great care and attention. There will be many areas of sensitivity attached to it.

It behoves us as the larger and stronger party in the Council to be at all times careful to be sensitive towards the evolution of this body, to refrain from making extravagant claims, and to be careful to appreciate the difficulties of our partners in that Council. It behoves us as the stronger party to be generous in giving when it is possible to give, so that in giving we may reassure the people on the other side of the divide that, if they came closer to us, they can be assured of a generous reception.

From my contact with people in my constituency since my return I sense that there is a real welcome for this agreement. It was because I sensed this so strongly and experienced—"euphoria" is not too strong a word —the hopeful euphoria that followed from it that I was sorely disappointed by the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition here today. At this stage I would ask the other side of the House—and it is sad that it is necessary even to make the request—to look on this agreement as a momentous step forward, as bringing with it hope of peace in this country, a hope that all the horrible and tragic acts which have dirtied our name internationally may begin to come to an end and to look at it not in any terms of the political past, or any terms of political catch cries, but as a new deal and to bring to it a spirit of real patriotism involving charity, involving recognition, involving giving. If all the politicians in this House can bring that spirit to what Sunningdale has provided, peace and happiness for this entire island will be here very shortly.

I was not aware on coming into the House that this was to be a debate on the communiqué issued as a result of the talks at Sunningdale. I thought it would take the ordinary course of a debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate to mark the Adjournment in which every aspect of Government policy could be covered. Assuming that, I was of opinion that another opportunity would be provided when as the leader of this party rightly pointed out, the communiqué and all that it involves and the agreement which will ensue from it would be explained to this House, before it would become a fait accompli.

The last speaker chose to speak on nothing but the Sunningdale communiqué and it reminded me forcibly of the 14 points issued by the Government which started off by saying that Fianna Fáil were so preoccupied with events in the North that they had scandalously neglected the economy of the country, had allowed prices to soar and everything to go wrong. He was disappointed that we did not stand up and cheer when the Taoiseach referred to this communiqué. He referred to it as a historic occasion but he later described it in his own words when he said: "We have to progress by small steps and this is a small but significant step", and he referred to it as a delicate political baby.

The leader of this party asked many questions with regard to what is likely to ensue and nobody has made any attempt to explain the communiqué in its most significant form, and it remains to be seen, however much we would welcome it if it worked in the way the hopeful talk of the Minister would have it work—we would stand and cheer for it—whether it is a step forward or a step backward. I sincerely hope it is a step forward. It contains most of the elements of what we have been looking for for a long time but does it commit us to something from which we cannot retrieve ourselves? Has unification become a dirty word in this country? Has it become something nobody wants to mention? Have we got ashamed of it or afraid of it? We all talk about peace and the desirability of peace. Peace at any price —is that what it means?

Fight to the last drop of the other person's blood.

Do not put any words like this in our mouths.

That is your choice.

There is a division in this country. I would love to stand up and cheer if I thought that this communiqué contains the elements of all the last speaker says it does. I have listened to Mr. Brian Faulkner on television. He believes he has won. He believes he has sealed the partition of Ireland in perpetuity and that he has got for the first time, as he says, a solemn declaration that we will not interfere with the status of Northern Ireland and its constitutional position.

Would you conclude that, please?

You will get an opportunity to speak. I am making a point as to why we did not stand up and cheer. I am completely in support of a step, even a small step as the last speaker has said, towards bringing about conciliation which to my mind means ultimate unification. If it has that element in it let us all cheer, and it is possible, quite possible, that it has. I sincerely hope it has. If it has not, the historic event will not be what it is said to be. I thought the leader of this party gave it a most suitable and most responsible reception and I would expect speakers on the other side to stand up and congratulate him on his responsible approach to it because it does, in fact, embody what we have been seeking to achieve and what we have, in fact, set going in our time.

If this brings about the ultimate end of the cause of trouble in the North, it does not matter whether it is Brian Faulkner, Jack Lynch, Liam Cosgrave or whoever brings it about, but we have to be told a few things about it before it can be given an unequivocal acceptance by this party. We are rather accustomed to agreements being completed in past history where both sides came home declaring that they had won and we have rather painful recollections of the ultimate outcome and I would hope that a repetition of these things will not be the possible outcome of anything that happens now. It is a historic step but I hope in the right direction. Anybody at any time, if he concedes enough can bring about a suitable situation, but, what I see most acceptable to everybody is the fact that two factions who have been diametrically opposed have come together to work in the North. This is something we always wanted to achieve—that at least they will learn that it is possible, that religious denomination has no part in nation buildings and they can work in harmony for peace, success and nationhood, but there are other things which must be considered seriously in that context. The ultimate unification of this country is of paramount importance in any agreement which anybody concludes on behalf of this country and if there is anybody who thinks he can denigrate that aspiration or relegate it to oblivion, I am afraid that we would be very much wasting our time.

These are facts. We have been talking about realities and the reality of the situation is that everything that can possibly be done to achieve unification by peaceful means should be done. That means we go forward and not backwards. When this communiqué is properly explained and analysed, it could, I believe, contain the elements of even greater progress than the last speaker, the Minister for Justice, outlined when he referred to it as a "delicate baby". There is to be a Council of Ireland and a commission which will deal with matters falling on that council, that council which will have executive powers. As I understand it, the council's decision must be unanimous. If the commission propose certain powers unacceptable to even one individual, then the proposal is just not on. I may be wrong in this and I would like to hear an explanation from Deputy Harte on this.

I am sorry. I was not listening.

I am explaining some of the things that must worry anybody who seriously reads this document and would like to debate it in a serious manner. We have not had a breakdown. The decision of the council must be unanimous. Unanimity is referred to in the communiqué. There is a commission which will decide those things that should be part of the powers of the council; if, however, any individual is not in agreement, then it is not acceptable to the council. This is as I interpret the communiqué. If the commission proposes some executive function which would raise the council above anything other than a mere parish pump talking committee one individual can prevent that being accepted as part of the powers of the council. As I say, I may be wrong in that. I hope I am.

Does the Deputy not see the parallel with the United Nations? What is wrong with the United Nations?

We would need to spend another couple of days debating that. I see a great deal wrong with it.

It has its faults.

It has and it has no relevance to what we are debating here. The leader of this party was entitled to question that which we do not understand. He was also entitled not to be criticised by the Minister for Justice immediately afterwards. He had given a most responsible reception to something that has not been explained to the House or put before it in a proper way, something assumed to be before the House on the Adjournment debate for the Christmas recess, a debate which covers every aspect of Government policy, and he is told that he was carping. I think Deputy Lynch gave this the only kind of reception a responsible Opposition Leader could give it, acknowledging all the difficulties that lay in the way of getting it off the ground, the possibilities that were there and stressing the fact that it should be given a chance. Because he did not stand up and cheer he is told by the Minister for Finance that he was carping, irresponsible——

I have not said anything yet.

I should have said the Minister for Justice. I know the Minister for Finance will agree with me in all that I am saving because I believe his heart is in the right place in so far as the future prospects of the country are concerned. In that he is different from some of his colleagues. I should like an opportunity of having this agreement and the significance of its registration with the United Nations explained. Is Mr. Brian Faulkner correct in what he says or is the Taoiseach, Deputy Liam Cosgrave, correct in what he says?

What does the Deputy honestly think himself? Stop playing politics.

I will not be questioned by the Deputy. Like the Leader of my party, I am not prepared to give an unqualified welcome or unqualified support until I get some explanation as to which of the two political leaders is correct, the two leaders who hobnobbed in the negotiations, shook hands over the agreement. One tells us he has got an unequivocal and solemn pledge of the constitutionality of the Northern Ireland state for the first time in history and he brings that back and sells the agreement to his people on that understanding and we here are expected to stand up and cheer for another reason, the opposite reason, and Deputy Harte asks me pathetically what do I think. What could I think? A couple of years from now Deputy Harte can ask me that question. I would not mind if it did not put us back. I go that far. I would support it if I were sure that we would not find ourselves a century back instead of a century forward. If anyone can guarantee the position or give a reasonable assurance as to the position, I will not condemn; on the contrary, I will support it in every possible way. It is possible that that is the case. But the elements of doubt are there. It has not been explained or analysed. We have not been told whether the Taoiseach or Mr. Brian Faulkner is correct. Who is codding whom? The last speaker claimed that we were indulging in political carping. I believe we have received this in the way a responsible Opposition should receive it. When the parties opposite were over here they always opposed everything we did. They did it for the sake of opposition. Our attitude since the Coalition took over has been one of support when the parties on the Government benches continued the policy we advocated. That is our position. If Deputies on the Government benches think that this communiqué relating to an agreement that has not been analysed or put before the House in a proper way will get them out of their difficulties as a result of their misdeeds over the past eight or nine years they are wrong.

We do not want that.

The parties opposite are naturally afraid.

I said we do not want that.

We have a right to highlight what we think is wrong. Deputy Lynch has covered the economic aspects. The period on which we can look back now is not sufficiently long to permit us to deal with the Government's conduct of affairs. When one takes an overall view of the position one finds that there is not one iota of policy change in the economic programme, or lack of programme, of this Government. Sometimes one is led to believe that there should be or that there is. Like the child riding the bicycle who calls out to his mother: "Look Ma, no hands", there seemed to be amazement that the Government could continue where Fianna Fáil left off. There was infatuation and everybody held his breath waiting for something radical to happen.

The Deputy is not whistling passing the graveyard now.

That old cliché is not even applicable now. It does not even fit. I have not spoken very often in this House because I feel it is premature. The Government Ministers have opened our schools, opened the factories we built, made long speeches and spoken about the future. However, that is as far as they got. The budget was a testing point for the Government who promised to remove VAT off food in their 14-point programme, and a reduction in prices. The Government dilly-dallied on the VAT question until September, and by the time it was removed prices had gone up more than what was taken off food. There has been no change and that is obvious.

On the other matter the Government threw up their hands and did nothing. When the Minister concerned was questioned he replied that he would do what Fianna Fáil did. That is virtually the answer to everything in relation to the problem. Many of the new taxes in the budget had the effect of further aggravating the inflationary spiral on which the Government blames everything. No relief was given to the worker in his income tax allowance, a very necessary prerequisite to preparation for the national pay agreement. Congress virtually advised us to do it on the last occasion when we were asked to withdraw the legislation we had intended bringing in. We complied with the request of Congress by not creating any new taxes in order to have a proper environment and climate for a new national agreement. This Government has done nothing about it. They have gone in the opposite direction.

The Government saw their mistake so well that in the Monaghan bye-election they told the people this would be done in the next budget. That was the first time I ever heard a budget proposal announced at an election meeting. The Minister for Local Government, in my own presence, announced that in the next budget there would be an adjustment of the income tax allowance for the workers. I never heard a statement of that type made six months prior to a budget.

Is the Deputy objecting to this move?

No, but it has the hallmark of idiocy and incompetence. I am not objecting.

If the Deputy does not object to this move he should welcome it.

It is a slovenly way of doing it and is something that does not fit in with the artificial image which the Government are paying the information service to create for them and about which the Taoiseach boasted when he was talking. The Government have put huge sums into image building under the guise of an information service. Scripts, and authorative rumours, are being leaked to the Press ad infinitum. That is the Government's own business but it will catch up on them as quick as lightning because if the performance does not match it rebounds.

It is funny that the Government won the recent bye-election.

It is like the man who thought the mental patient was fit to come out to work for him. This man made an agreement that the patient would go to work for him on the following Wednesday but when he was leaving he was struck on the head by a brick thrown by the patient who shouted after him not to forget Wednesday. That is typical of what is happening here. We have a day-to-day effort. From day to day one wonders if the Government have forgotten what they promised the previous day.

The Government think they can hide behind what the Minister for Justice called a "small step in the national affairs in relation to the Six Counties" and forget about everything else. They think they can turn this into a debate on the communiqué from which an agreement, to be signed at some future date, will issue in relation to a Council of Ireland. I promise constructive support, as much as any front bench member of this party will give, for what emanates from this communiqué if we are given some analysis of it. If we are told that it would not suit to give this analysis for fear of revealing something confidential I will accept that. I do not say that in a facetious manner. It is probable that there is something good in this which the Government do not wish to talk about because it might have the wrong effect.

I can recall many times in the past when the present Leader of the Opposition, as Taoiseach, was asked embarrassing questions which he thought better not to answer in the interest of progress. The Minister for Justice attacked the leader of my party for the carping reception he gave to this communiqué. Anybody who reads the speech of the Leader of the Opposition tomorrow will come to the conclusion that it was a most responsible reception to what is a delicate issue and about which the people do not know enough.

We are talking about the ineptitude of the Government. That word, ineptitude, has been used so often in this House that it sometimes loses its significance but the stock in trade of the publicity campaign that has been in operation for the last seven months gave us to understand that an extraordinarily efficient and highly qualified Government had taken over. That is a correct interpretation of what has been churned out by the media, but there is nothing on the record to substantiate that image. We have had one crises after another since this Government took office.

The Government handled the fuel crisis in an inept manner. The announcement that we were going to be short of oil must have sent everybody out collecting in cans. When we reached the stage that the panic eased off the Minister concerned spoke of the serious situation existing in the country and that if the crises continued every aspect of the economy would be hit. However, the Minister did not try to get the private consumer of fuel to economise so that the essential services could receive their full requirement. The action of the Ministers concerned in this regard was childish. It was not in keeping with the high standards we were told we could expect. Fianna Fáil could do better than that. They could not do worse. Irrespective of political outlook everyone must have an interest in the welfare of the country, no matter who gets the credit for it or who brings it about. I would hate to see anything going wrong. I sincerely hope that nothing will go wrong. It does not inspire confidence when one hears the Taoiseach claiming that something that happened in the last three months has led towards increased exports and better economic outlook.

What is objectionable about it?

The only objection to it is that one would expect from the leader of the country a responsible statement that would be factual and that could be believed. Everybody knows that the Government did nothing in the last three months that changed the overall economic situation.

The Deputy is entitled to his opinion.

So is the country.

What does the Deputy make of it?

The Deputies will have an opportunity of speaking.

Obviously, the Deputy did not listen to the speech the Taoiseach made. It is really interesting. Having generalised in regard to the communiqué, he made no attempt to explain anything. There has been no reference so far to paragraph 5, which worries people. Noticeably, nobody has made any reference. It is conspicuous by the absence of mention. This is the one on which the assurance should be given. The Taoiseach said, while talking about the present state of the economy in relation to rate of increase in exports——

What does the Deputy see objectionable about it?

——that this improvement has been due mainly to the fiscal policies of the Government. That is plainly untrue. That is what I object to, if the Deputy wants to know.

What is the Deputy's version?

He could not point to one single thing he did that has created anything in the way of improved exports. It is just talking nonsense. This is something that does not happen overnight. It develops over a long period. Action could be taken that would overnight have a serious effect on it. It would be just as correct for me now, to read the latest figure issued in regard to the balance of trade and, to say that the increase in imports has considerably exceeded the increase in exports to a far greater extent than in the corresponding period, and I could say that that is due to Government action. These things do not happen overnight. They develop as a result of long-term organisation and work.

What I should like in order to have a happy Christmas would be an assurance that the building industry will not collapse. I should like an assurance that the building societies will be able to finance a housing programme nearly as good as we had in the past.

We will do a lot better.

That would be great. That is what we have been promised for the last year.

We aspire to do things in that connection.

Deputy Brennan is in possession now.

I should like an assurance that we will have another national wage agreement. I should like an assurance that we will have industrial quiet such as we had reached in the last two years. I should like an assurance that the communiqué from Sunningdale is the precursor of a good agreement that will bring peace and national advancement to the island. These are the things that we would like for a happy Christmas.

You will have a happy Christmas.

We should like to know that the fuel position will be handled better than it has been handled for the last three weeks, particularly the last three days. These are the assurances that we want, not a reference to the results of a fiscal policy and a great advancement. These are empty words, nonsense that is not acceptable or correct. Given a reasonable assurance on the lines I have indicated, everybody will come out and assist. There is nothing that has happened that would in any way create, even in one's brightest moment, a ray of hope or encouragement that these things will happen. We are being told that it is all right, that a few millions will be spent here and a few millions will be spent there, that the Minister is examining the matter, that a commission is being set up which will examine the matter closely. When something is done but has not been done well we will be told that they used the system that Fianna Fáil used.

We would want to improve on it.

This Christmas does not carry much hope. Perhaps Christmas of next year will carry hope. That hope would be that Fianna Fáil would again be in the responsible position of looking after the country.

Wishful thinking.

Before I commence my speech I should like to take Deputy Brennan to task. The whole theme of his speech was whether or not Brian Faulkner's interpretation of what transpired at Sunningdale is the correct version or whether the version put forward by the Taoiseach is the correct one. Surely Deputy Brennan must agree that all people of moderate opinion, having the normal amount of intelligence, have come to the conclusion that reunification of this country is not on until such time as we can persuade one million people north of the Border that we have a society on this side of the Border which they would like to join and surely Brian Faulkner realises that when 51 per cent of the people of Northern Ireland say: "We are now prepared to discuss reunification of the country" this is tantamount to saving the same as what the Taoiseach is saying.

What disappoints me is that while the divisions between people in the North of Ireland are so great, while there is the hatred, the misunderstanding, the death and destruction there, yet people of different facets of Irish life are prepared to sit down and work out an agreement and the Fianna Fáil Party are reluctant to give their consent willingly to the Sunningdale agreement. I sincerely hope that the speakers who will follow the former Taoiseach and the deputy leader of the Fianna Fáil Party will be more magnanimous in their appraisal of the situation in Sunningdale and will rise above the level of Irishmen south of the Border who have refused in the past to recognise realities.

I want to ask Deputy Brennan one question: If the British Government in 1916 had offered Pádraig Pearse a Parliament internationally recognised, our own defence forces, our own police force, our Civil Service, the right of self-determination, instead of death and destruction, instead of long years in penal servitude, what would Pádraig Pearse and his comrades have done? They would have accepted the settlement that was ours in 1922. The settlement of 1922 had in its being an Irish dimension—Irish dimension being a modern way of calling what Collins called a steppingstone. It was never used. That honourable divide between Irishmen in 1922 was a genuine mistake between people who believed in one strand of republicanism and others who believed in another way of national reunification.

I, as a member of this generation, am prepared to forgive completely the mistakes on both sides at that time but I fail to see any reason why I should even attempt to understand people who 50 years later are still dilly-dallying around that bush. There is no excuse for it. The traditions of Irish life, the mistakes of the past have made us understand that the only way to reunification is by consent.

Deputy Brennan was a member of the Government here from 1957 until 1973, for 16 years, and until the civil rights movement started in 1966 in Northern Ireland—and, indeed, for a couple of years afterwards—the Government of the day here paid no attention to the Northern situation. Deputy Brennan now talks of reunification. The Fianna Fáil Party, having been 40 years in Government, all during my lifetime, are now finding solutions to national reunification from the Opposition benches. Do they think the country is dumb? For 40 years they sat there doing nothing but paying lip service to it. At election times they brought out the drums and beat them. They blew the horn and talked about reunification. They sent spokesmen to the United Nations at times of crisis. They made nice noises in the Council of Europe. Platforms at general elections in the south of Ireland spurted with nothing but hate for the Northern Unionists, instead of understanding. What were they doing but creating counter-productive politics, pushing the Unionist people into a corner into which some of them did not want to go and not trying to understand them?

I, as one of a generation of Irishmen who have listened to the stories of the past, readily confess that my idea of reunification was very much along the lines of what Deputy Brennan said in his speech. I am prepared to say that I was wrong. It is just as dearly my wish to reunify the country as it is Deputy Brennan's. The Fianna Fáil Party have no monopoly of ideas for reunification: they have no monopoly of wisdom. They have what all of us have got from God, simple common sense and if they used it now and again we might have a better society. I have spent some —perhaps not as much as I should have—of my time north of the Border and I have gone into the camps of those whom we did not call our people, into the Shankill Road and east Belfast to talk to people who possibly would have cut my throat only that people had introduced me to them saying: "Will you at least listen?" On the first occasion that I met these people there was hard argument but after an hour's debate we discovered that we had married the same type of girls, had the same type of families, the same problems and the same identification. The only thing we disagreed on was our political belief. I do not know whether Deputy Brennan is smirking at my remarks or at some joke he is thinking about. But if Irishmen who hate each other's politics can sit down together and agree that they have so much in common, surely we should try to develop the things we have in common and explain away political differences.

The Fianna Fáil Party in office repeatedly—the former President, Eamon de Valera, the former Taoiseach, the late Seán Lemass and the former Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, and every other leading spokesman of Fianna Fáil—and time without number have said: "We will not coerce you; we will seek peaceful means; we will not use force"; and in the same breath they said: "We will not give de jure recognition to Northern Ireland.” I have yet to find out what the Fianna Fáil stand is because they never have a policy; they do not yet know if they have one but whatever the situation is, I want to make it very clear that my intention in my remarks in this House is not to be critical in order to score political points over the Fianna Fáil Party. My speech will be hard and factual because only by clear speaking to the people across the floor of the House can we really understand each other.

Fianna Fáil have given assurances to the Northern community time and again that they will not coerce. What do they mean—that they will not force? That is my understanding of it. If you say you will not force surely you are saying: "We are giving you the right to decide." If you give the right to decide surely you are recognising their right to stay out instead of coming in with us. If that is not de jure recognition they had better be more selective in their phraseology.

We say we will not use force but we have repeatedly committed the offence of allowing people to use our name in using force. We have oscillated from the position of having internment to encouraging them. Deputy Brennan need not shed crocodile tears about this because he has been a member of a Government who used internment to put these people down and he has also been a member of a party who have encouraged people to use violence against the northerners.

We come then to the last and most condemning statement of all: "We will seek peaceful means." In what way have we tried to understand the Northern community, to seek peaceful means? Have we ever tried to understand why the Northern Unionist does not want to join us? If we have, it has been done secretly because I am not aware of it. I am tempted to say that in September, 1969, four weeks exactly after the day of Bogside which began this recent trouble in Northern Ireland, I was party to a document presented to the Fine Gael Party for adoption and it makes very interesting reading at this time and I would like to put it on the record of the House. This is a document compiled by the late Michael Sweetman, Deputy Garret FitzGerald, as he then was, and myself. It sets out ten points of policy and it is the first time that any political party put down in writing what their attitude is to the Northern problem. It may be boring to Deputy Brennan but I will attempt to read it to him. The first point is that development in the Republic of policy with regard to Northern Ireland should be carried out in consultation with those democratically elected representatives in Northern Ireland who are opposed to policies of privilege and sectarianism.

I take it the Deputy is summarising?

I am going to summarise it. By that, we meant that we would speak to any person north of the Border if he was opposed to sectarianism——

That was after we had showed you the way.

After Deputy Seán Lemass went there and opened up the talks. The Deputy is talking a lot of rubbish. He is trying to escalate acrimony.

I am not trying to escalate acrimony. The second point is that the Government here should concentrate their diplomatic efforts on securing maximum British support for the creation of normal democracy and a just society in Northern Ireland and for initiating greater co-operation between the three Governments. That has happened. The third point is that towards these ends the Government should press the British Government to reconstitute the RUC as a civil unarmed police force, similar to the Garda Síochána, recruited from all groups in the community and confined to normal police duties. It should also support the disbandment of the B Specials and press for the maintenance of order by a genuinely neutral force. The document goes on:

4. The Government should press not alone for the immediate implementation of the one-man one-vote principle in local elections, but also for the creation of electoral areas with boundaries fairly and impartially drawn, and for guarantees that gerrymandering will not be possible in future in Northern Ireland.

This has also happened.

5. The Government should, after appropriate consulation with Northern opinion, press the British Government to ensure representation of the minority in the Northern Ireland Government as the sole means of reassuring the minority as to the full and continued implementation of the proposed reforms, and fair treatment for this minority.

That has happened.

6. The Government should initiate discussions with the British and Northern Ireland Governments for the creation of a body similar to the Council of Ireland envisaged at the time of the Treaty.

I should like to state that that was the first time the Council of Ireland had been mentioned since the Treaty times. Some people are giving credit to the former Home Secretary, James Callaghan, as being the person who first mentioned the Council of Ireland as a means of settlement. That is not so. The idea was mentioned three or four months in advance of that.

7. The Government, and the political parties in Dáil Éireann, should assert formally their rejection of force as a solution to the division of Ireland, and should clearly state their intention to work towards a voluntary reunion of the people of both parts of Ireland.

That has happened.

8. The Government and the political parties in Dáil Éireann should, in consultation with representatives of all sections of the community in Northern Ireland, initiate a study of the changes necessary in the Constitution and laws of the Republic in order to make them acceptable to the widest possible spectrum of opinion in Ireland.

That is being done.

9. The political parties in the Republic should pledge themselves to work together to create in the Republic conditions of economic prosperity and social justice, including social welfare arrangements comparable with those in Northern Ireland, so as to eliminate any economic or social obstacles to the reunification of the country.

I hope that is one of our aims.

10. The Government should immediately establish an all-party committee for Northern Ireland affairs to secure the implementation of the above policies.

I take pride in the fact that I was one of the three people who drew up this policy document. Last week when I re-read it I wondered what inspired the three of us to spell out clearly for the first time the direction towards a settlement in Northern Ireland. I hope the three people will receive just recognition. Two of us are still alive; unfortunately one, a young man, with tremendous promise in Irish politics, lost his life in very tragic circumstances.

I would ask Fianna Fáil if Ted Heath last Sunday in Sunningdale had said to the Taoiseach and those who accompanied him: "You have got a united Ireland", would they have advised us to take over the legacy of bombing, murders and deaths that are taking place in Northern Ireland? Do they think we could do any better than what is being done at the moment? I want the reunification of this country. I have said that here in repeated statements; I have spoken at university gatherings, at branch meetings, and in different parts of Northern Ireland—my choice is reunification under one Parliament but that is not possible. It is not possible because we have not yet found a political system that could be controlled by one Parliament, to which Irishmen of different traditions could give consent.

The only way to reunification is to unite the country under two Parliaments, each giving full recognition to the other, each having its own political system to which the people under its control would give consent. We are heading in that direction—under that umbrella, the Council of Ireland will harmonise traditions on both sides of the Border and give Irish people an opportunity to identify and relate to something that is theirs.

We must be clear about this. This Parliament could never give recognition to the Stormont that was, not because it was a Northern Ireland Parliament but because it was a sectarian parliament with sectarian structures. I, for one, could not condone that kind of thing. However, we are not now being asked to do that. We are being asked now to give recognition to a northern assembly, an assembly set up by Irishmen, in the hope that the people elected to it will be given the opportunity to run that part of the country in the way they see best for the people there so that in the long term we can find a political system to which the Northern Unionist or Loyalist will give his consent.

Our choice is this: If we want reunification, do we accept the Northern Protestant Unionist, Loyalist as he is, or do we try to convert him into a Southern Catholic Republican? If we can succeed in converting him into a Southern Catholic Republican. then we do not have to find a political solution. We do not have to change our Constitution or our way of life; he will come into it because he will identify with us.

We know that the Northern Unionist, Loyalist Protestant will not become a Southern Catholic Republican, no more than we will become Protestant Unionists. If we want those people to come into our way of life we must accept them as they are. It would be unnatural for them to come in any other way, just as it would be unnatural for us to join in their way of life. I do not want to be other than I am and I do not want anyone else to have to change either. It is unfair of us to create a society south of the Border that is alien to the thinking of Irish people born into the Protestant Unionist tradition. It is unfair of us to try to create conditions on this side of the Border that will make it impossible for them to join us while, at the same time, forcing a united Ireland down their throats.

I have had discussions for two or three years with people of the different extremes. I hope they have the opportunity of reading my speech because I want to pay a compliment to them. The conversation is always similar, there is no difference. The difference is, with the Provo Republican in the South, in that he wants a united Ireland to solve the problems while I want to solve the problems to have a united Ireland. That is the difference between us and I speak from the middle ground.

The only difference between the Provo in the South and the Loyalist in the North is that they have been born into different traditions. I am convinced that had Bill Craig been born a republican in Cork he would now be preaching the merits of republicanism. Equally I am convinced that had my colleague from northeast Donegal, Deputy Blaney, been born into the Protestant Loyalist tradition in north Antrim he would not hold the views he holds today.

The accident of birth decides most, if not all, of the attitudes that are adopted. There are the odd exceptions; occasionally a person will not go the way taken by his parents, but that is the exception.

I imagine the reason Fianna Fáil have not given a warm-hearted welcome to the Sunningdale agreement is because they have never, as a party, come to terms with giving recognition to the Northern Ireland State. They give de facto recognition but they will not give de jure recognition. As far as I am concerned that is meaningless. To the people in the Border areas, and very particularly to the people in the Six Counties who have to live with car bombs and shootings and indiscriminate murder, de jure recognition means very little. If de jure recognition in the short term can lead to an Irish settlement, and an Irish settlement must mean reunification of this country because that is what ultimate settlement is, but settlement on conditions acceptable to our Northern brothers, in a society in which they have a part to play, in a society of which they are a part, if that is what de jure recognition means, I am prepared to give it. I do not see any justification for a person in this Parliament, or living far enough away from the scenes of murder, to stand up and say he will not give de jure recognition just because of the loss of pride. Mostly it is a loss of pride, for some people because of very deep prejudice. I question his right to say that he will not give de jure recognition because of these simple facts when children are being killed, when fathers and mothers are being killed, when property is being destroyed, when the whole fabric of society is disappearing. We will have Deputies here engaging in semantics, trying to justify themselves and we will have people in simple conversation in public houses, at street corners or at firesides saying they would not be prepared to do this or to do that. With respect to those people, peace among Irishmen must be paramount and it is in that tradition that I stand.

Anything that will bring about peace among Irishmen I will support. I am not interested in the legal phrases de jure or de facto because they mean nothing to me. Let those people who start defining nationalism or republicanism as being a brand of politics of which they have a monopoly understand the meaning of the words. Nationalism means nothing to me if I do not have the right to live and support my wife and family and have a friendly relationship with my neighbours and have that applied to other people. If you do not have this, nationalism means nothing and republicanism means nothing either. The same applies to the people who believe that loyalism is the be all and end all. It means nothing to them if they do not have the right to provide for their wives and children, if they do not have the right to earn a living, if they do not have the right to live. The sooner we give those words their true meaning the better. One Irishman said that Ireland meant nothing to him without its people. I am saying it in different ways.

Fianna Fáil Deputies, particularly Deputy Brennan, laboured the question of reunification. What was Deputy Brennan's party's contribution to reunification? They prostituted the Irish language. They made it impossible for people who did not have an opportunity of learning the Irish langauge to become members of the Garda Síochána or of the Defence Forces. If a young Protestant boy from across the border in Northern Ireland wanted to be patriotic and came across to become a cadet in the Irish Army he could not do so unless he could speak Irish. However, as has happened, he could become a Member of Dáil Éireann without knowing Irish. He could become a Parliamentary Secretary without knowing Irish. He could become a Minister without knowing Irish. We have had them. He could become Tanáiste without knowing Irish.

Tá sé agam.

I am not referring to the present Tanáiste. In fact, he could become Taoiseach. We have had a Taoiseach who did not know Irish. Of course, he could end up as President. I do not want to reflect on the office of President but it is public knowledge that the President does not know Irish.

The Deputy should not impute.

This is the contribution Fianna Fáil were making to reunification, creating ultra-conservative notions south of the border that made it virtually impossible for northerners to come south. They tried to create the super green Irishman, the mythological Irishman that nobody knew of south of the border, that nobody wanted south of the border, that did not exist south of the border, but in the minds of the Northern Protestants he was there and they did not want him and they would not be part of him. This was Fianna Fáil's contribution to reunification.

Now when we have a settlement that is definitely a vehicle for peace, they are not big enough to say they will support it enthusiastically. Even if it has flaws, even if we have not got everything we want at Sunningdale, we have achieved something and we have lost nothing. Indeed the merit of Sunningdale is that while every person there or every group there did not get everything they wanted they lost nothing.

The divisions in Northern Ireland are so great that it is just simple stupidity for Members of this House to disagree. I have spoken many times in this House as an Opposition Deputy. In fact this is my first time to speak as a Government Deputy. I have tried in Opposition to be as responsible as a Deputy could be from the Opposition benches. I do not know whether I achieved that or not. I do not want to be the judge of it myself. The Fianna Fáil Party have a very important role to play in the years that lie ahead, whether in Opposition or in Government—and that decision rests, as far as I am concerned, with the people. If this Government do not live up to the promises they have made, if they fail to govern the people in the way the people want to be governed, then the Fianna Fáil Party are there to be the alternative Government. They now find themselves in Opposition. I would appeal to those in the Fianna Fáil Party who are making loud noises. I would say to them as Irishmen and in the interests of other Irishmen who find it so difficult to sit down and talk to each other: "Settle your differences. Do not rock the boat." It means nothing at all south of the border if a half dozen Deputies of any one political party step out of line and rock the boat, whether it is Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or the Labour Party, but it can make a lot of difference north of the Border. You have people like the Reverend Ian Paisley trying to scare the Northern Protestant into believing that the Council of Ireland means that members of the Garda Síochána will be going north of the Border to police, and then we have Deputy Blaney saying, as he said in Milford on Friday last, that members of the RUC will be coming this side of the Border to do likewise. Here we have two men, coming basically from the same social backgrounds but born into different traditions, each using the same weapon for self preservation. It is my honest assessment of the situation that Deputy Blaney is motivated by a desire to rock the Fianna Fáil boat and that he may wish to unseat the present Leader of that party. I am sorry that the Deputy is not here to hear me, but if I am wrong in my interpretation of his approach to the present political situation I apologise to him.

Deputy Blaney does not belong to the Fianna Fáil Party.

Let the Deputy try telling him that.

I am putting it on the record anyway.

I appreciate the point the Deputy is making, but I wonder if he could convince Deputy Blaney and his supporters in Donegal that they are not in Fianna Fáil. The Reverend Ian Paisley is being motivated solely by a desire to destroy Brian Faulkner. Far be it for me to be a defender of Mr. Faulkner, but he is the democratically elected representative of a section of people in the North, and if we cherish democracy we must acknowledge that he speaks for those people. I would ask the Irish people to assess carefully the issues at stake because there is no alternative to Sunningdale or, if there is, no one has come forward and said so. There is no alternative to a conference table other than the alternative of the bullet and bomb. I have no wish to be executed in any vain effort to re-unite this country and neither would I wish any members of my family to lose their lives in any such efforts, and in saying that I have a right to say that these standards should apply also to other people.

There is a great danger in mad, out-of-line speeches at this time. To the back-benchers of Fianna Fáil I would say that, if they have anything to say to their Leader, they should go to his office and say it to him; but let them be loyal to him at a time of crisis. The issue at stake is much more important than the question of who leads what or where south of the Border. I am confident that the Taoiseach can do an excellent job of creating a new society in this part of the country. I know also that members of Fianna Fáil, many of whom I have had the pleasure of serving with on Committees of this House, are sincere in their efforts to create these conditions, but there are Members of this House, who, for personal reasons, are interested only in party political gain. The odds are too great north of the Border for anyone to indulge in politics of that type.

I recall speaking here about 12 months ago and referring to a traumatic effect which a certain incident had on me immediately after the shootings in Derry on Bloody Sunday. I was speaking of what I saw in St. Mary's Church in the Creggan when the remains of those who had been killed were being received at the church. The fourth coffin to be taken into the church carried the remains of 17-year-old John Young. I told of how one of his three brothers who were carrying the coffin broke down physically and of how the coffin would have fallen to the floor if some people standing close by had not gone to the assistance of the other people carrying it. I saw many men, including cameramen and reporters, crying unashamedly at that sight. I asked myself what had happened to Irish politics to allow this tragedy to happen and I wondered whether in 15 years' time there would be a repeat of these tragedies. I wondered also whether, in 15 or 20 years' time, my sons might be carrying the remains of a younger brother and I asked what is the purpose of all this.

The next occasion on which I saw four brothers carrying the remains of a dead brother was in my own county in January of this year. The remains being carried this time were those of Oliver Boyce who, with his girlfriend, had been killed. Again, I wondered whether I might witness such a sight again but, regrettably, this happened again in Donegal when a young Protestant boy, John Cunningham from Carndonagh, was shot by Protestant extremists as he was returning from Belfast. His remains, too, were carried to the grave by his four brothers. Once again I witnessed four other brothers carrying the remains of a dead brother. This time the remains were those of John Doherty, a young RUC constable, who had been shot.

What has gone wrong with Irish society to have allowed such things to happen when people's lives are taken away for no gain, while we in this Parliament are arguing among ourselves as to whether we should give de jure recognition to Northern Ireland? As regards Deputy Brennan, who gives a damn whether he gives de jure recognition to Northern Ireland? But it is important that a responsible Opposition party should recognise the issues at stake here. I did not know John Young; neither did I know Oliver Boyce, but I knew his family. I did not know John Cunningham, but I knew John Doherty. I had seen him grow up. He came from a very poor family who lived in a county council cottage. Their father got work on, perhaps, only four or five days each year and lived on unemployment assistance for the remainder of the time because he could not get work. John Doherty wished to join the Garda Síochána but because Fianna Fáil said that one must have Irish in order to qualify for the police force, he went away and joined the London police. However, when Cardinal Conway appealed for more Catholics to join the RUC after Sir Arthur Young came to Northern Ireland, John Doherty came back to Ireland—not to a 6-county Ireland but to Ireland—to become a police officer. But there were misguided boys who set a trap for him and shot him. It might be argued that he was indiscreet in entering the Republic but no one had a right to take his life.

In what cause have these four young people gone to their graves? How many other young people and children have been killed or maimed, but yet Fianna Fáil fail to rise above their own level and say that they will accept the agreement and will back it most enthusiastically. To the people who do not make a contribution to the peace of this island I would say that on their shoulders must lie the responsibility for the deaths of these people and for the lives of the people who may be killed before a settlement is reached. The young soldiers who shot John Young on Bloody Sunday did not know what he stood for or what it was all about. Nevertheless, they shot him. Oliver Boyce was killed by Protestant extremists who hated him, but we might ask who taught them to hate and whether they can be faulted for hating.

John Cunningham was killed because some people hated what he did and expressed that hate by murder. But, again, can we truthfully blame them, or do we again blame the society which taught them? John Doherty was killed by the IRA or by Catholic extremists, but again we might ask: who taught these people to hate? Was it the politicians who did not give the clear lead to a better society south of the Border?

I know who I would blame, but maybe I would not blame them completely because we all share the blame in that we have all stood back and watched all of this happen. Some of us have even turned our backs and walked away and said that the battle is not ours. Strangely enough it is not the bomber or the gunman who is killed as a rule but the innocent people who say it is not their battle. The people who turned their backs and walked away are those who are being killed. I repeat: it is not the bomber or the gunman who loses his life.

I could cite examples and continue to ask why the Fianna Fáil Party are lacking at this stage of the debate in giving a warm welcome to the settlement. No one ever expected that when the Taoiseach and members of his Cabinet went to Sunningdale, and when members of the Unionists, the Alliance Party and the SDLP went there they could attempt to solve in a weekend the problems of Northern Ireland which, in fact, are the problems of Ireland. No one other than a lunatic would expect from the Sunningdale talks a solution that would be the ultimate.

Most of us rather expected what was going to happen. We probably could have predicted it because of what the political correspondents had written about the contentious articles and the points of agreement. What most of us hoped for was a type of settlement which would be a means towards a final settlement. If that is what our hopes were based on, I compliment the Taoiseach and the other members of the Irish delegations, north and south, for having arrived at the settlement they finally agreed to.

As Deputy Carter will agree, the things that divide the present Government and the Opposition about this agreement are so insignificant that they do not even merit mention. The success of this agreement means so much. So many people's lives can be saved. So many young people will have the right to go to a dance in Belfast, to say the least of it. A generation is growing up there which knows nothing but hate. They must be taught differently. All of us have a part to play, and in the quietness of the evening we must ask forgiveness for not doing more.

Surely my appeal to the Fianna Fáil Party should not fall on deaf ears. Give us your consent to this, as we, when in Opposition, gave consent to the manner in which the then Taoiseach, Deputy J. Lynch, was governing the country. No one can dispute the fact that the bi-partisan policy which existed here before the change of government was anything but harmonious. I hope the Fianna Fáil Party are not going to rock the boat. From my personal knowledge of the Leader of the Opposition I know that if the boat is rocked it will not be his doing. The boat will not only be rocked in the Fianna Fáil Party and in this Parliament, but the results of it could rock the thinking on the southern, political ideals. This will only happen by members of the Fianna Fáil Party believing that another member of that party would bring them back to power sooner than that might happen under their present Leader.

I do not want to lecture. I hope that some of the Fianna Fáil Party who are not here may read my remarks. As far as I am concerned —and I say this quite deliberately— the Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour Parties are a passing phase in Irish history. Over 50 years ago they were not known. Who knows what will happen in 50 years' time or whether the Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour Parties will still be here. It is not important. What is important is that the Irish people, no matter in what tradition they have been reared, will have the right to live and to express themselves in a natural way.

Peace among Irishmen must be paramount. I will conclude by saying that it is in that tradition I have stood and will continue to stand.

I think that Deputy Harte need have no fears about the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party in regard to this communiqué. I was in the House and I do not think it can be said that Deputy J. Lynch in his comments in any way tried to take from the contents of the communiqué. Deputy J. Lynch merely dealt with it and asked for further information. In that context it might have been better if the Taoiseach, when he was introducing his Estimate, had dealt a little more deeply with this matter, as he is competent to do. Perhaps that might have been the means of avoiding some of the comments which have been made. Certainly Deputy J. Lynch, as leader of this party, had nothing but open arms for the agreement and did not condemn it in any way. He merely asked for further information in regard to certain paragraphs. That is a reasonable request. It is open to the leader of any Opposition in any House to ask the same sort of question.

Perhaps we are here inclined, as we always do in times of high-level negotiations, to indulge in euphoria. On the other hand, we can go into the "dumps," as it were, at the other end. We have been long enough in this House—and even before we came in—listening to comments on this whole matter. No matter what may be said to the contrary, apart from a few comments which were made by way of further elucidation on the communiqué, everyone is in agreement with it. Why not? Deputy J. Lynch spent a long time as leader of this Party dealing with this very problem. Not merely on the home ground but abroad, he is on record in a wide way and his views on this question are well known.

Therefore, we should not get too emotive about certain elements which go to make up this terrible problem with which we have been living for a long time. We know the terrible blockage it has created in the minds of the people here, the terrible disadvantages it has placed this country in from the point of view of trade and so on. We had the two ends of the nation thinking separately. We know that any move to reduce this sort of thinking and to direct it otherwise is to be welcomed.

All of us who have lived with it know that it is time to take the steam out of violence, to get the men of hatred out of the way. For too long we have had people dealing in murder, arson, robbery and so on— all the products of hatred. These crimes were committed in the name of patriotism. All of us realise that we have a democratically elected Government and that if we are to have control of our destinies, of our own affairs, we must subscribe in a constitutional way to the efforts of whichever Government may be in power, not merely in dealing with negotiations of the kind we are now discussing but with other large scale matters, matters of trade and commerce, matters concerning Europe.

It is not right that we should become either too euphoric or too emotive about this whole matter. No one with any sense of history and certainly no one who has lived here in the past 20 or 30 years can blame any figure in history for the emergency which we are now enduring. As a famous man in the south of Ireland said recently, no one in this House ever voted for Partition but we found ourselves with it. I do not suppose we ever learned to live with it, as it were, and having regard to our history and background prior to it there were those among us who resorted to force on every occasion.

Force in this instance is the wrong kind of medicine. Therefore it must fall to the lot of the democratically elected Government to deal with it and it must fall to the lot of the people who believe in our democratic institutions to back up the Government. That is taking it in broad outline. I do not think Deputies need worry about the attitude of our party towards this communiqué, this agreement. I have had many conversations with people from the North. I have been a member of the All-Party Committee of this House during the past few years. People seem to think that it might increase the chances of reconciliation to talk in the first instance about unity as a prerequisite. Would it not be better to speak first of reconciliation, because in this context there have been numerous people in Northern Ireland who through the years have been brainwashed into the belief that we have had some ugly designs on their way of life and perhaps on their personalities?

Members of the minority who live here will bear testimony to the fact that no such designs exist in the minds of any persons here. If members of the minority would speak up here they could testify that there has been equal rights and equal opportunities available here for all. Therefore, on the floor of this House we should not distort this matter. It would be too bad at this stage that we would give that impression. As I have said, if a Deputy wants to query some paragraph in the communiqué it is open to him in a democratic way to do so but I do not think that when he engages in that sort of exercise his motives should be queried, especially when his motives are well known and on record, when he has been widely publicised as having the view that reconciliation is the primary aim and that trade and commerce and social aims should take first place in any scheme of reconciliation. We should lay aside that kind of tactic in this debate and proceed as factually as we can.

I have met a number of people from the North in the past few years, people who genuinely believe in their work for reconciliation, and I have always heard them say that we should aim first of all at this requirement rather than to indulge in other kinds of talk. We know that any delegation which will go out to negotiate on behalf of this country will have a difficult time even if they go to negotiate a trade agreement much less something which has been causing agitation, bad feeling, resentment and anger. It has caused people to look back in anger on every British statesman up to the present time.

The greater volume of our trade is done with Britain. Britain at one stage provided work for our emigrants, who no doubt earned their bread there, and we had a large volume of emigration which happily we have now reduced. Despite all this we always have the spectacle of not merely looking back in anger but of charge and counter-charge being made in public and private on the various personalities here and in Britain. Large numbers of people north and south are subscribing to the aim of reconciliation. Over 97 per cent of the people here would be behind any Government in any move to try to reduce the violence and promote a better spirit between the communities. Possibly 80 to 85 per cent of the people in the North of Ireland would be prepared to go along with that. It would be a tragedy if, in view of the large numbers on each side who want to reach a better understanding, a few violent men on this side or the other side could vote to achieve the impossible and bend the will of the peoples on both sides of the Border. If they do, it is a reflection on us.

History has been blamed for a certain amount. We are too near those happenings to give a decision on that. Possibly in our time we did not talk enough about the subject. A number of people did not think deeply enough about this terrible problem. Certainly the British people only think about it when something occurs and they lose personnel or treasure. Then they think about it and possibly not very deeply. One has to put oneself in the position of a hard line Unionist on the other side of the Border who believes that the only Government to which he could subscribe would be his own type of Government, and that was a permanent majority. The laws which would emerge from that majority would be the laws which should be imposed on the minority. It takes a while to convince that type of individual that there is any good in our system. Mr. Faulkner has been mentioned in this debate. He never at any time subscribed to violence and we hope he will succeed in continuing his mandate in order that he will be able to implement his side of it.

We hope that the Council of Ireland will work. We are in the dark as to what its functions will be, how it will be financed, and whether it will have an all-Ireland function. These matters exercise the minds of people who think in terms of reconciliation. As I said earlier those of us who have lived through the various assaults on life and property on both sides of the Border know that force will never be the solution. If it is claimed to be a solution, what degree of force and what loss of life would make any inroads into this problem? We all agreed that this is a step on the road to reconciliation. We all seek to come to an understanding of this terrible problem.

I should like to discuss some other matters which are troubling me at the moment. We live in a period of scarcity. Certain commodities become scarce in times of world strife. They are scarce and dear and some of them cannot be purchased. Fuel is very scarce and this will create a major problem for us in the future. It will affect Britain as well. Labour relations in Britain have been very disturbed for some time past. We should all like to see, in the interests of this country, a continuance of the national wage agreement. We live in times when small sections of people can inflict fierce wounds on the economy. We live in times when we have nationalised power. Some few years ago we witnessed a small group threatening to black out the countryside in the winter. We see the same thing happening in Britain. Fortunately here, due to better labour organisation and more advanced thinking, and higher standards amongst the labour unions —I must say that—in 1969 we achieved a national wage agreement. I am open to correction on that but I think it was in 1969. The country owes a good deal to the national wage agreement. By implementing it we avoided the worst pitfalls which the British economy was unable to avoid, even allowing for the fact that the labour organisations there are much older than ours. There was good sense here not merely on the part of the labour unions and labour leaders, but also on the part of the then Government and the then Minister for Finance who was the chief architect of the national wage agreement.

Being an open-ended economy as the Taoiseach said, we are being caught up in the jams which arise outside, the jamming of industry, the jamming of power, the war in the Middle East, American measures to control money. There have been some negotiations and happily, I think, American investment will continue here. We have enough on hands to try to minimise the worst aspects of the problems which are attacking us from outside, bearing in mind the fact that we still have to get through most of the winter. All of us would wish to see a more rational system for the distribution of fuel and power. Most members of the community would be prepared to put up with inconvenience and hardship provided they could be reasonably assured that we would not have rising unemployment or loss of job opportunities as a result of the worst aspects of the fuel situation.

It is not merely confined to fuel. We are also attacked by the rapidly rising costs of the raw materials we have to import and convert and turn into the finished product. It is a strange fact that, while there is fairly high employment in England and here, we still have this biting loss in the value of money. Whatever we might do to combat this and to minimise its effects, we should be alive to the fact that one of the worst evils which could overtake us would be a loss in the value of our money. When one saw £30 million being sheared off stocks and shares last week on the floor of the stock exchange as a result of panic one wondered whether if the Minister for Finance knew about it in time he should close the door of the Stock Exchange and leave those panic stricken people standing outside. That had to be done at times in other countries. I do not know what all the panic was about.

It may have arisen from the fact that there was an announcement in England that they were increasing interest rates and the Government here quickly followed suit. I am not blaming the Government more than any other Government because it is always contended here by the banks that, when the rate of interest in England increases, money will flow out of here like whiskey at a wake if steps are not taken to make it dear. At the same time, in any given year when this occurs the banks make a higher profit than ever. Some steps should be taken to look into that aspect of monetary affairs. I am not saying we can wave a wand any more than any other country, but we are better placed in relation to our size than Britain is to grapple with any problems which may arise for the rest of the winter.

I read an article in The Sunday Express by Reginald Maudling in which he talked about the things they were beset with: the fuel shortages, the lock-outs, the voltage reduction in power. He said that every TV news bulletin carried bad news. He went on to talk about the proposed strike by the miners and he summarised how they stood in respect of energy and the sort of society they had built up in England. It seemed to me that he was talking in terms of the desire of the labour force there to destroy their own economy by exorbitant demands for wages which could not be met out of production.

We did not escape that in full but, happily, we escaped some of the worst elements of it. Some other elements rubbed off on us and those are the elements which are causing the erosion of our £1 note. Until all the people in the community realise that, our pound note will still continue to be eroded and over the past number of years it has lost at the rate of 10p a year and maybe more, if the rate of interest goes up again. This is another aspect of the matter which we should query and as a democracy, come to terms with it, try to come to terms with it in a rational way, before irreparable harm is done to those amongst us who have to live on social welfare.

I do not think there is any need for me to labour that point but I am reminded of the occasion when Mr. Reginald Maudling talked about lemmings and the proclivity of lemmings to destroy themselves at a given time. This would lead me to think that he was charging the people who were making all these exorbitant demands in England with having the same urge, namely, to break down their own economy. We would not like to see that happening either because, in simple terms, we looked to the British market for a long time. We have found fault with it but they always bought our goods and paid for them and we were always able to buy goods and pay for them in return. That is the way we want to see it and if we are to try to continue selling and buying, we would like to see those to whom we sell our goods and from whom we buy our goods in a position to surmount their difficulties.

The Taoiseach also mentioned that there was to be some reorganisation of Departments and that the trend indicated much earlier is being pursued. We now have a Department of the Public Service and the Minister for Finance has been made Minister responsible for this Department. Strangely enough, a Minister for Finance in any Government is not always the best choice to take charge of a Public Service Department. I am not casting any reflection on the Minister who now carries this portfolio but I do contend that the aim of a Finance Minister and the aim of the people under a Public Service Department might not be one. A Minister for Finance here, as indeed in most countries, is nearly always concerned with making ends meet and sometimes pressure is brought to bear on him to stretch the fund to cover projects or propositions with which he might not be in total agreement, but that is by the way. As I say, a Minister for Finance—any Minister, and I am not casting any reflection on the present occupant of that Ministry—might not be the best person to take on a Public Service Department.

The Taoiseach also dealt with the possible route of oil supplies and so on, and gave a detailed summary of what was being done in regard to exploration for oil and gas. We scarcely know enough about this subject to talk very much about it but those of us who have some small idea would wish this exploration success. One never knows what is under the ground and one sometimes spends a lot of money to discover that there is perhaps nothing under the ground, but we hope, and will continue to hope, that there is oil and gas around our shores because if that should turn out to be the case, it would stand us in good stead in future years.

He referred very briefly to interest rates in Britain. I dealt with that and tried in my own way to summarise some of the backwash and the feedback, as it were, that one gets from there and the naked fact that our interest rate climbs with the British rate, whether we like it or not.

He dealt with agriculture and, strictly speaking, although those engaged in agriculture worked hard during the year, I doubt if it will be deemed to be a good farming year because of our weather. We have had a big disaappointment in fodder and unfortunately now prices of feed compounds are such that it is going to make it very difficult for those engaged in stock raising to make cattle pay. We hope they will be able to do so. This is an element which we escaped last year but with which we have to contend this year. A fact also which is tending to depress the price of cattle—I may be wrong in this—is that farmers in England never like to stock up coming near Christmas. They wait until after Christmas or until March when the dry weather sets in because they do not want cattle leeching land and for my own part—I do not know what the Minister may think—I would not say to any farmer to throw away his stock because I think the price of stock will harden up again in the early spring.

There were better crops this year than last year and certainly the potato crop yielded well. I do not propose to go extensively into this on this debate, but it will relieve the position in this regard, and whether we produce potatoes for human or other needs, we are glad to see that at least we have this attribute this year, that we have had a good potato crop. We are not so well off as we should be in grain and earlier on when I was saying something on the Estimate for which the Minister is responsible, I regretted the fact that we had not a basic tillage policy. Possibly we could only have that through the medium of incentives but it is a pity that we do not have such a policy. I believe it is essential. The price of imported feeding stuffs has reached such a dimension that it is hard to believe the price will ever fall again. The elements are abroad which would suggest that there should be a fall in prices, even in the price of houses, but that is not happening. One cannot see any immediate hope of any fall in the price of animal feeding stuffs. Indeed, exporting countries will have to call on what they normally export to feed their own animal population.

We have then the social aspect. We have a good deal of leeway to make up on the social side. Those of us who are inclined towards such activities find the fight sometimes an uphill one. I am referring now to co-ordinating social aims and giving some of our own leisure time to helping others less fortunate. There is always a tendency here to look for Government aid. Government aid has grown over the years but it still remains a relatively small amount when it is distributed.

There are people who have plenty of leisure. We have a shorter working week and a free day every Saturday. Politicians do not enjoy this amenity. Most of us are engaged on Saturday and possibly also on Sunday. There are people who could help to promote the aims of the different voluntary organisations to a much greater extent than any Government aid could possibly achieve. Indeed, it has been my experience that when the Government enter into the picture the heart seems to go out of the personnel involved and there is not at all the same enthusiasm as there is in the purely voluntary organisation for which the fight is generally an uphill one all the way. I am thinking in particular now of sporting activities and youth clubs. I would like to see many more youth clubs. I would like to see more interest in all branches of sport.

We are all aware of the problem of alcoholism. How is it to be solved? How are we to stop the brainwashing of the youth growing up today by the vested interests who night after night on TV go on talking in glowing terms of their wares, urging everybody to visit places in which they will be able to indulge in these wares? The young are being assaulted and if we do not take steps to put a stop to this assault it will continue with increased momentum. As I said, on another occasion, we blame the youth for a good deal; we can blame ourselves for more than two-thirds of that for which we blame the youth. Youth today is earning a high monetary return for its labours and there are people waiting around the corner to take that monetary reward from youth the moment they receive it. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education should do everything possible to encourage youth leaders who, in turn, will encourage youth into interests less deleterious. In that way we might circumvent the worst results of an affluent society.

An undue proportion of the profits of some companies seems to be directed into advertising. There should be a law compelling people to advertise the harm caused by excessive smoking and excessive drinking. If that were done we might not have so much advertising. We might take the appeal out of a great deal of advertising.

We have a Government information service. It is rather remote from me since I have never had recourse to it. I would advise the service to dwell more on the purely informative aspect of its work rather than on building up certain personalities. It was founded as an information service and that is the role it should fulfil. I doubt if it is fulfilling it at the moment.

The Taoiseach dealt with the arts. I do not want to weary the House repeating what I said on this subject on the budget. Arts naturally conjure up a world of culture. One is struck by the fact that at the moment there is a disturbance in the school of art. It is of fairly long duration and it is time someone tried to resolve whatever the difficulty is. Daily we are confronted with the spectacle of people parading with placards outside the precincts of this House. I doubt if that would be allowed in front of similar buildings in other countries. I do not know of any other Parliament in Europe where this would be allowed. People are well aware of their grievances and it is possible that some of those are manufactured. It seems that there are people involved there who will not be satisfied by anything. They wish to parade on every occasion, particularly when this House is meeting.

The Taoiseach, on the question of Parliamentary procedures, made reference to the ad hoc committee of this House which dealt with this matter. I was a member of that committee and we did our best to provide for the better use of time on the floor of this House. We had many problems to contend with. We had to keep within the scope of the Standing Orders which was very difficult. At the same time we endeavoured to redraft the rules to make for better use of the time of this House.

In my view the report which was issued, a report which I hope will be adopted by all parties, will make for a better use of the time at our disposal. Some members of that committee advocated an extra day's sitting of this House, but the view was expressed that if this suggestion were carried out it would be filled out with talk just as the time we have available at present is filled out. For that reason we had to cut our cloth according to our measure. That report, which is not a drastic one, proposes a number of improvements which could lead to a greater volume of work from the House.

It is unfortunate that when we talk about the use of time in this House we make a comparison with the House of Commons. Those of us who have visited the House of Commons are aware of how that Parliament can rely on its committees to do part of its work. We must also recognise the fact that that Parliament consists of 630 members and that if they all turned up for a sitting they could not be accommodated in the Chamber. In fact, more than 200 of them would have to be accommodated in the Public Gallery. The House of Commons can make good use of such committees because they do not take away from the numbers available to participate in a debate on the floor of the House.

When a Bill is sent from this House to any committee we always have to bear in mind that the composition of such a committee will mean a reduction in the number of Members available to take part in a debate on the floor of the House. We always have to take into consideration the fact that a number of Members could be indisposed and that others could be engaged at county council meetings.

On this ad hoc committee we had to make sure that if committees were set up to consider various Bills we would not be stripping the floor of the House of a sufficient number of Members. I hope this report finds favour with all parties because, if it is adopted, it will mean the business of the House will be dealt with more expeditiously.

There is a trend of thought that parliamentarians are not abreast of current affairs. If we are not ahead or abreast it is our own fault. However, we all experience great difficulty in sifting through the reams of paper, reports on everything possible, that are placed at our disposal in the Library. For this reason we should have resort, on occasions, to direct briefings. If we do not take steps to avoid the mountain of paper we will be found buried under it on the floor of this House.

I am not going to be on the long haul here.

Seeing that the Deputy talked through most of my contribution he could not have a lot to say now.

It was very amusing and I enjoyed it immensely. The Deputy was great gas.

I ask myself, in relation to this issue, who will direct when all pretend to know. We are discussing a situation which will have an effect not alone on the nation of today but on future generations. For that reason we must apply ourselves to it not as public representatives representing any particular team if we want to be successful and honest with the people and with ourselves. Recrimination and rancour, whether it is personal or political, will have no other end than to obscure the situation and we will finish up in the position that we will not be able to see the wood for the trees. We must divorce ourselves completely from all association with our own particular parties in this issue because we have here an opportunity that has not occurred since 1921. Let us not have a repetition of what happened as a result of the rancour and the personal recrimination that went on at that time and during that debate. What was said then is there for everybody to read. We all see and know the results of that unfortunate debate in 1921. It behoves us all now to unite and to take advantage of the opportunity that is presented. Not in their wildest dreams could anyone have imagined 12 months or even six months ago the developments that took place in Sunningdale this weekend. Nobody could for one moment have realised that we could have in the six north eastern counties of our land Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter coming together to talk and to unite with us here in the Republic of Ireland in order that we may bring about unity.

The position as I see it is that up to now the gate was locked and locked firmly. As a result of what took place over the weekend the gate is now open. The field inside the gate is there to be ploughed, sown and reaped. It is the duty and the responsibility of the Assembly when it is formed to cultivate that land and to let the land be cultivated equally. That is the position as I see it.

I also see that there will be people who will disagree, who will take the nice pieces out, hold on to those, and then row and wrangle because everything in the package does not suit them particularly. But we must deal with the situation as I see it. In a triple alliance and talks such as these there were differences, grave differences, differences that appeared to any ordinary person in the street six to 12 months ago insurmountable and we now have reached the stage as a result of the unity, as a result of the approaches that had been made, that there is agreement among these extremely differing bodies connected with the reunification of this land of ours.

I know that with one stroke of the pen or one wave of the wand we cannot undo what has been going on for generations. I am prepared to settle for a good start. I believe that well begun is half done. I believe that there is a good beginning here. I believe that if this situation had been presented 50 years ago Ireland would have been united long ago. Unfortunately, that was not the way.

For that reason I want to say that I am not particularly anxious one way or another as to who created this situation. If it were created by any other party in this House I am sure it would have got the wholehearted support of the remainder. I am convinced that this agreement will have the wholehearted support of everybody in this House. There are things in all arrangements, in all agreements. in all deals and transactions that will cause problems, minor or major, but in the overall position this is the situation that must be reckoned with. We have got something that I for one never thought would come about as quickly as it did. Without being in any way recriminatory, I must say that it has happened in this issue as compared with what happened in the Treaty negotiations, that the leaders and the men of responsibility and the men, I suppose, who had experience now more than they had then, that the captain and the vice captain of the team and those particularly engaged in this exercise went over to discuss with the other men involved directly and they took upon themselves the full responsibility to speak on behalf of the whole nation. I think they are to be congratulated for it.

It is all very well to sit on the fence and to criticise the men in the field. It is all very well to have a ring-side seat at a boxing tournament and to shout and roar at the unfortunate lads in the ring who are trying to do their best. It is all very well for people to sit back and to criticise. Let them have the courage of their convictions. Let them come out and convince me that they can do better. Then I will say, "Well and good. More power to you. I am with you." But, let us not get into reverse gear and make it a political issue. If we want to discuss this matter sensibly, let us think of Irish people, whether they are in Belfast or in Cork, in Galway or in Dublin as Irish people belonging to the one nation. Let us not, as I have had, have to listen to people from the benches opposite, talking about their opposite numbers in their constituencies. That is not necessary and that is not the way to solve the problem. I know that the whole House will be with us when it comes to the crunch, that we in this Republic are prepared to go in that gate and into that field, side by side with all others interested who are prepared to make this a nation and to plough that field and to take whatever we can out of it in order that all can live here together.

My associations go back much longer that do those of some of the people who come in here talking about republicanism and independence and I say that never in the history of this land have we got the opportunity that we have got now. Never.

These discussions that have taken place are only the first step, if they are a step at all, on the road to reconciliation. I hope that we, the Members of this House representing the people who sent us here, will take our courage in our hands, put the people before whatever party we belong to, and think of the generations who will come after us and judge us by what we do here this week.

There will always be people who will grouse and grumble no matter what they get. That is human nature, but reasonable people will realise that differences created over hundreds of years cannot be wiped out with the stroke of a pen or the wave of a wand. We must show our willingness to make living possible for everybody no matter what part of the land he comes from. Then we will have unity and not until then.

My views in many ways are and have been very extreme, but I realise that the Irish people are our first consideration. If we want to divide them and keep them divided, good enough; let us say that and let us throw out this agreement that has been reached. Let us not be picking bits and scraps out of it. Let it be laid on the line: "We will split the country again. We will have civil war." We all know what the outcome will be if we do not get together. We all know what the extremists on either side are saying openly, on radio, on television, at public meetings. However, they are men of dishonest views. They are thinking of nobody but themselves. It is our job to bring the people together. The only way that can be done is by sitting down and talking to them and having them talk to us.

I do not want to go into what happened since the days of Clontarf or any other time; we have had enough of that here already tonight. Let us kneel down and say a prayer for those people who were killed. Let us not be talking about four brothers carrying coffins and so on. That kind of talk will not solve our problems. I hope we will have no more of this acrimony that we have had to listen to tonight. That is all right at election time but not on an issue like this. Then we can be Labour, Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil, but during this debate there is only one jersey to wear, and that is, the Irish jersey for a 32-county Ireland.

I do not think the other matters which come within this motion have any great priority at this stage. There is plenty of time for them. However, I would say that the nation is in a very healthy position at the moment. Our housing problems have been well and truly tackled.

In Limerick, anyway. I know the Deputy is not as closely related to these things as some of us, but we are at a stage in the city of Limerick at which we can now house people with one child. There may be extreme cases that have come into the city within the last two or three months, people with two or three children, but we are well ahead with our housing programme. Within the next three or four months we shall be looking for tenants for some of the houses. The same thing could apply to any local authority who did their job properly. The money is there, and we have a Minister who keeps pressing us to send up plans. We have contented tenants, which we had not for years. Rent strikes are at an end. The Minister has met over and over again the people who speak on behalf of the tenants all over the country, which was not the case until he took office. As a result of the dialogue that took place, house purchase and other developments are going ahead satisfactorily. If houses are not being built it is not the fault of the Minister; it is the fault of the local authority.

There is a difficulty for which nobody can be blamed, that is, a world shortage of timber and other hardware materials. However, we cannot solve that. If the timber and the other housing materials were available we would be well ahead of our programme. This is something over which we have no control. Yet, with all our troubles and difficulties, we are doing a first-class job and the people of Limerick are glad of it.

In the field of health and social welfare, since the present Minister took over these Departments, we have people getting benefits they never got before. And there is more to come; all these will be increased and the services will be increased and they will be far and away better than ever they were. We have done a tremendous amount of work in a very short time and, given another year or two or three or four—which we will have— by that time we should be able to take our place among the nations of the world. I am glad to say that. We have given priority to the more unfortunate old people. The pensioners, widows and orphans and the blind and the deaf have all been taken care of. We shall see that everything is levelled out and that social benefits will be distributed so as to make us comparable with any other nation in Europe. That is something of which we can all be proud.

I must also congratulate the Government on introducing the Department of the Public Service because up to now, dare any member of the Army or the Garda or the Civil Service or any such people approach a public representative on any matter. It could not be done—I do not know why. If any member of those groups dared to make representations he would be for the "high jump." The result was that you had internal agitation and you had a go-slow without it being mentioned; you had not the full cooperation of the people involved, people who were living in a very unhappy state of uncertainty. When a group of people are living in that state, not knowing from one day to the next what will happen and, whether it happens or not they are not in a position to come out and say so, or to anticipate events in advance, life can be very worrying. There are enough tensions all around us without putting more in the way. I congratulate the Government for establishing this Department so that anybody with a grievance can come along and make a case. That is a move in the right direction.

I do not want to go into many details this afternoon. I do not want to be like other speakers who have gone through every Department bit by bit; if I did, I would be here until this day twelve months. I just want to touch broadly on some of these matters. If there is a challenge, let there be a challenge and let our Ministers and the Opposition compare themselves. I know what the result will be. This was clearly shown in the Monaghan by-election. After our short time in office the people reversed what had happened nine months earlier. It is all very well to come here and talk—we have others in the Six Counties saying this, that and the other—but the ballot box speaks and has spoken like the oracle in Monaghan. The people know exactly where they stand. They now know they have a stable Government that there is unity and ability and courage in that Government. Perhaps they were misled in the past. Many obstacles and difficulties were put in their way, particularly prior to the general election but now, having had a trial over the course as we have had in the past eight or nine months, the people are convinced that we have the ability, the courage and, above all, the honesty to do a good job for the nation. That we shall do and continue to do.

I came in principally to make my position clear in regard to what happened in Sunningdale but in passing I want to say that we are here for a long time to come and no matter what misrepresentation there is or how matters are distorted the people are not fooled. That was proved in Monaghan. Anyway, we shall get on with the job despite any obstacles that may be put in our way. We shall surmount these obstacles and make this nation as good as ever it was in the past.

I should like to begin by congratulating my dear colleague, Deputy Coughlan, on his fine speech and to note that what he said is the direct opposite of what he has been saying for the past few years. I am delighted that he now realises, after all these years, that Ireland is not such a bad little country.

A lot the Deputy knows about it.

The Chair will notice how Deputy Coughlan and I have matured, that I never interrupted him once and I am quite sure he will not interrupt me either.

The Deputy could not do it.

I want to talk about a number of topics, some of considerable importance and some, perhaps, less pressing. I shall begin with one of the less pressing matters to which the Taoiseach devoted quite a lot of his opening speech, a matter of some particular interest to me, the question of reform of parliamentary procedure.

I was chairman of a committee which reported in November, 1972, with suggested recommendations for the reform of the procedures of this House so that business could be expedited and more business completed, and so that discussions in the House would be more in tune with what was happening outside it and so that discussion of topical matters might be made easier. The terms of reference of that committee precluded our examining the institutions of Parliament in a broader way which some of our members, and I think many Members of the House thought, perhaps, we should do. Our terms of reference confined us to changing the details of existing procedures, details of the internal functioning of the House without any major changes in the function of Parliament as an institution or the relationship on a broad scale of Parliament vis-á-vis the country as a whole. Within the limitations of those terms of reference we brought in a report which contained 35 main recommendations. I was glad to hear from the Taoiseach in the House a month ago, and again in his speech today, that the Government have no objection to the implementation of all these proposals. Assuming that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, who are at present examining them in detail, agree to all, or nearly all of them, I shall be in the happy and the almost unique situation of having chaired a committee which brought in a report virtually all of which looks like being implemented.

Today the Taoiseach made certain references in relation to these recommendations with which I am not in entire agreement. We made a recommendation that the system of special committees should be more widely used in the House than at present. The reason was that frequently the Committee Stage of a Bill will take several days and the discussion tends to go on between the Minister and, perhaps, two or three Deputies, usually not more. The committee thought that kind of discussion could more usefully be done by a special small committee of, perhaps, nine Deputies in a room in the House, rather than in the Chamber itself. While that was going on it would be open to the House to discuss other matters which at the moment it is precluded from doing.

We recommended that the use of a special committee—in each case we recommended it should be an ad hoc committee—for a particular Bill should be by agreement between the Whips. We did that for the good reason that if there was not agreement between the Whips it is possible that the Government of the day—we were in Government at the time of this report—might force a very controversial Bill into a special committee where it would be inappropriate and when it should properly be discussed in a committee of the whole House in the Chamber.

Apparently the suggestion of the Taoiseach now is that all Bills should be sent to the special ad hoc committees we recommended unless there was some very good reason for not sending them there, that there should be a prima facie sending of any Bill to the committee unless it was proved, presumably to the satisfaction either of the Chair or the Whips, that it should not be sent. I think it should be the other way around. It should be as we recommended and not as the Taoiseach has suggested.

I say that for two reasons. First, the Government of the day might well force a controversial Bill which should be debated here away from the Chamber in order that it would not get much, if any, publicity. The second reason is that we ran into the difficulty when we were thinking about committees generally that this is a very small House in the sense that there are only 144 Members. Of those at any one time a large proportion are not available for committee work of any kind. At any given time there are about 22 Members in Government, there are two in the Chair who are not available and there are 16 Members at any given time in Europe, ten at the European Parliament and six in the Council of Europe. In addition to that, there are other calls of one kind or another on Deputies.

The result is that there is a very small pool from which to pick personnel for any committees. It is so small a pool that I cannot see more than one ad hoc committee existing at any one time. We were conscious of that problem when we considered the matter in 1972 but since then there have been two major developments which accentuates the problem even more. The first was the establishment of another and very important committee—the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities. That committee has to meet regularly. Of necessity there is a large number of Deputies on it; the European members must be on it as well as a considerable number of other Deputies because it may happen that the European members may be away at any one time.

There is the further complication —the matter that has been the principal source of discussion today— namely, the proposed Council of Ireland. It is proposed that 30 Deputies from this House should be chosen to sit on the Council of Ireland at consultative level, with 30 Members of the Northern Assembly. It is obviously envisaged that the 30 Members from this House who go to Armagh, or wherever the council will meet, will have to spend a fair amount of time there. Much to my surprise, it was announced in the communiqué from Sunningdale that it was proposed to pay allowances to members of the Council of Ireland at consultative level. Presumably they are not being paid allowances for a nominal job or one that entails infrequent attendance at meetings of the Council of Ireland. One can assume they will be away from this House and their constituencies for fairly lengthy periods and the strain put on the membership of this House to serve committees of any kind within the House will be increasingly greater between the European calls and the Council of Ireland calls.

We have tended to think we could run a series of committees and a committee system in this House similar to Westminster but what we overlooked—and we came on this very forcibly in the course of our deliberations on this committee—was the fact that there are 630 Members at Westminster, of whom perhaps only 70 or thereabouts are in Government at any level at any one time.

There are perhaps 550 Members who are available for service on committees. Therefore, it is not valid to suggest that because this kind of thing can be done elsewhere it can be done here. It cannot be done here having regard to the small numbers at our disposal.

The Taoiseach referred to the possibility of the establishment of a specialised joint select committee of the Dáil and Seanad in relation to State-sponsored bodies. This was not covered in our report because it was outside our terms of reference but it is something I would welcome. It would certainly have to be a joint committee of both Houses because we would not have the personnel here to service it properly. It is the kind of committee that could make a valuable contribution and it is one in which Senators could make a valuable contribution, having more time, perhaps, than have Members of this House to delve into the intricacies of the activities of State-sponsored bodies.

There are many other reforms which might be desirable so far as the institution of Parliament is concerned. In particular, I remember members of the Labour Party on this committee making that point and I had to point out to them more than once that our terms of reference precluded our examination of Parliament as an institution in the 1970s. It was too broad a question and it was one in particular which, if a committee were to look into it, membership most certainly should not consist of Members of this House only. Indeed, the majority of the membership should consist of people who were not Members because all of us here, even those of us here a comparatively short time, tend to take too much for granted the existing procedures and to accept them in our own thinking, when fresher minds would see different but very much better ways, perhaps, of doing many things that we try, not very well to do. I would say to the Taoiseach and to the Government that we on this side of the House would certainly welcome such a joint committee of the Dáil and Seanad so far as State-sponsored bodies are concerned. I would make the suggestion that the present Taoiseach should now do what the former Taoiseach did in 1971. The former Taoiseach set up a body to look at the existing situation inside the House. The Standing Orders have been thoroughly examined now and modernised and will hopefully be in operation in the very near future. I would suggest that the present Taoiseach would now set up a different type of committee consisting mainly of persons from outside the House who would look in a much broader way at Parliament as a whole and see how it could be made more useful and how its relevance to life in the country and in the world today could be brought out more clearly and how its usefulness to the people of the nation as a whole could be increased. I think that would be a fruitful field of work and I would commend to the Government that they would consider the establishment of some suitable committee to consider that whole situation.

The next thing I want to talk about is the question of the economy and the way it has developed in the past nine months. One of the figures that struck me most forcibly in the Taoiseach's speech was where he set out once more:

Estimated current expenditure for 1973-74 stands some £141 million above its level in the last fiscal year and at the same time capital expenditure has been increased by £43 million. The financing of these large additional expenditures has been so arranged that the net borrowing requirement at £193 million is some £72 million above its 1972-73 level.

These are spiralling figures. They are particularly so when one bears in mind that they represent an increase in expenditure of approximately 20 per cent on the expenditure in the fiscal year 1972-73. The figure in 1972-73 was an increase of 10 per cent in Government spending over 1971-72. That was described at that time by the present Minister for Finance, Deputy R. Ryan, as irresponsible and enormous and likely to run the country into very serious difficulties. He himself has come along the following year and has doubled the rate of increase in spending and very considerably increased, what is more important, the rate of borrowing.

The financing of much of this additional expenditure will have to come ultimately from the savings of the people. The soundest place that the financing of Government expenditure like this can come from is from internal savings here rather than borrowing from abroad or borrowing from banks or other institutions. For many years past we have had a constantly rising graph of savings by small savers and investors but this year Deputy Colley discovered, with no little difficulty, in the House on Tuesday, 4th December last—Volume 269, column 855 of the Official Report —the position with regard to savings and investment from the 1st April to the 23rd November. The figures are very shattering. One could, in Opposition, almost express jubilation about them. That is the last thing I do because they are very serious for the country and they are very serious for those who will have to clear up the sort of situation they now reveal. Those figures got very little publicity because many people misunderstood their significance. The manner in which they are presented—the figures are factually correct presumably—is misleading. It tends to suggest that certain sums mentioned came in when, in fact, the sums that are mentioned in the reply at column 855 are the net result of what came in and what went out. It must be many, many years since there was actually a net decrease under a number of headings in savings.

About three.

Prize bonds were a popular form of saving and I thought remained a popular form of saving. I would have thought that many millions of pounds go into prize bonds each year. The position with regard to them this year is that while there was a net increase in the period from 1st April to 24th November, 1972 of £945,000, or almost £1 million, in other words the amount of bonds bought exceeded the amount which were cashed by about £1 million, the situation in the period from 1st April to 23rd November, 1973 is that there were net withdrawals of £256,000. In other words the number of bonds bought by savers was less, for the first time ever I understand since the institution of the prize bond scheme in 1957, than the number of bonds cashed by people who wanted to take their money out. There was a net loss to the prize bond fund of £256,000. When you look at that sort of situation in the context of these huge figures for borrowing and for increased capital and current expenditure in this fiscal year, it discloses a very serious position. Where is all this borrowing to be financed from? Very clearly it is not to be financed from the place, above all else, where it should be financed from, the savings of the people.

What interest rate is the Deputy recommending for Government borrowing?

I have not spoken at all about interest rates. I am simply speaking about prize bonds.

The prizes for prize bonds are related to interest rates. Is the Deputy suggesting further inflation? I think that is what he is doing, even though he does not say it.

Savings certificates fell. Withdrawals exceeded receipts in this period from April to November by £1,120,000 in this year.

I improved the rate in November.

Last year there were net receipts during the same period of £1,360,000. The difference between the two years is not the difference between those two figures but is the sum of those two figures. Many people may not have realised the significance of that. The net difference in the April to November period as between this year and last year is a figure of £2,500,000 in savings certificates alone. This year there were net receipts in respect of national instalment savings totalling £958,000 whereas last year the amount was £2,841,000, a difference of almost £2 million. Those three items alone, the only three that Deputy Colley asked about in that question, show a decrease in savings in a seven-month period as between last year and this year of almost £5 million. If we could get the information in relation to other things, goodness knows what would be disclosed.

It might not be favourable to the Deputy.

The Minister did his best to prevent our getting the information. It was only when the answer had been circulated that we saw the figures. The Minister got quite a roasting from Deputy Colley and also from Deputy Lynch in relation to these matters at the time; but if the Deputies had known then that the figures were as bad as we found them to be subsequently, I am sure they would have made it even hotter for the Minister. After Deputy Colley had put down the question there was a fake question put down by the Minister in the name of Deputy P. Belton so that the Minister could give the reply in the form of a tabular statement.

That is quite untrue.

The Minister did this because it suited him much better not to give orally the three figures that Deputy Colley asked him in which case he would have been open to cross-examination by way of supplementaries. Instead, he put down a question in Deputy Belton's name asking for a lot of other figures. He included Deputy Colley's with those and took them all together in the form of one of these tabular statements.

If the situation as indicated by the reply to the question concerning the saving schemes I have mentioned was bad, the situation that has been disclosed in relation to the national loan this year is atrocious. The figures are an indication of the great lack of confidence in this country on the part of investors, but they will create even a greater lack of confidence. We must ask why there is this lack of confidence. By way of interjection the Minister tried to tell us that the reason why prize bonds, savings certificates and the national instalment saving scheme were doing so badly this year is because the interest rates are bad. Possibly that is a partial explanation but the Minister is caught by his own argument because we might point to the national loan interest rate which was almost overgenerous. But lest it should not have been generous enough the Minister changed the rate three days after the loan going on sale so that it was offered at 12 per cent interest or 11 per cent at £92 which is equivalent to considerably higher than 12 per cent if one holds up to the time of redemption of the security. Therefore, the Minister had both the fixing and the refixing of his own rate so he cannot now argue that low interest rates were the cause of people not investing in Government securities.

The true test of the success or otherwise of a national loan is the amount that the ordinary or noninstitutional public subscribe. This year they subscribed £8.8 million but last year for a loan that was considerably less attractive they subscribed £27.7 million. This year's figure is approximately 30 per cent of that amount. The Minister fixed the loan this year at a high rate but when he saw that it would be a flop he refixed it at a higher rate. Despite that he succeeded in getting only £8.8 million from the public and this happened at a time when the value of money is depreciating from year to year. Perhaps the £8.8 million this year is equivalent to 10 per cent less on last year's values.

I am waiting for Deputy O'Malley to point out that the British Exchequer increased the bank rate by 1.75 within 24 hours of the issuing of our national loan and that we increased ours by 0.3 but that nonetheless we got a national loan of a very substantial dimension.

We have the figures here for all national loans so we will have no bother with that. When one takes into account the 10 per cent depreciation that has occurred since last year it will be realised that the investment by the public is about 25 per cent of what was subscribed last year.

The stark fact is that the small investors of this country, like many other people, have no confidence in a coalition. That is why we get from them less than 30 per cent of what we got last year. There is no other explanation for this situation. The tragedy is that this is the first concrete evidence we have had of this state of affairs. The situation has not been brought about by the oil crisis or by any of the other external factors of which we have heard so much from the Government in the last few days. Because of inflation and increased production there is more money circulating now in this country than ever before in the history of the state. Therefore, there is a greater pool of money from which the Minister can draw in issuing a national loan. Yet he succeeds in getting only £8.8 million for a loan issued on terms that are almost criminally generous from the point of view of the taxpayers, who ultimately will have to service these loans.

That £8.8 million was supplemented by £7.5 million from insurance companies but that amount from the insurance companies should have been considerably more. It is something in the form of a levy on insurance companies, particularly some of those abroad who are told quietly that it would be very good if they invested some of their assets in Government loans in this country so that they would be in a position to renew their licences. There are many people who think and, perhaps, think rightly, that this sort of money which is given very grudgingly by insurance companies to the Exchequer in a national loan should be invested by those companies in housing in this country. The proportion of housing which is financed by insurance companies here has fallen drastically in the last few years. The building societies have been carrying the brunt of the increased spending on housing over the past five or six years. Insurance companies, many people feel, are not pulling their full weight. I am glad to see the Minister for Finance making certain suggestions to them. I note that their £7.5 million is obviously a very grudging figure. It is the same figure as was given last year and less than the figure given in 1971. The figure then was £7.6 million. There is another item which is called "departmental funds" which has gone up from last year. This item "departmental funds" is not composed of public subscriptions. They are paper balances in Departments. While I never professed in my days in Government to be a financial expert or to understand precisely what these were, I know at any rate that they are not really cash. They are no indication of the success or otherwise of a loan. This is the Minister's own money.

There was over £12 million three years ago there. The Deputy will acknowledge that. Look at the table.

The previous year they were £5 million.

What about the year before?

They were £5 million. Three different stocks were there the year before that which were issued specially. They were short-term stocks because of the bank strike. Between them they totally £12 million. That is £4 million each. The year before that again in 1969, when an ordinary national loan was issued, the figure was £3.9 million.

The Deputy acknowledged that he did not understand high finance. I accept that.

That makes two of you.

I understand enough about this to know that £27.5 million and £8.8 million from the small investing public of this country is a disaster. I understand enough about high finance to know that the reason for it is the traditional and wise lack of confidence of the people of this country in the financial and economic policies of a Coalition. How tragically do we now see the same thing starting all over again which the people of this country saw twice before. This is the first really concrete evidence of it. This is the place where the feelings of confidence or otherwise of the people shows up first.

The Deputy does not believe in power sharing, the Council of Ireland or this idea of getting together?

We are talking about money.

This irrelevant heckling will not put me off.

The Deputy is showing his own ignorance of the stock exchange.

The Minister should put up on his own wall two sets of figures: £27.7 million in big letters and £8.8 million in letters that are 30 per cent the size of those of the £27.7 million. He would then realise the situation that this country is now facing. He would realise the situation where he and the Taoiseach have boasted that they have produced £72 million more than last year. Net borrowings have been raised to £193 million. That is £72 million above the level of 1972-73. God help those who are going to pay for that borrowing. The principal and best source of capital development in this country is the savings and investments of the people. When they have dried up, as assuredly they have done now, it makes the expenses of all this extravagance all the more serious for the taxpayer and for those who will come afterwards to clear up this mess.

We had to do it before.

I know we had to do it before, but it is getting to be a rather tiresome and repetitive process.

A Deputy

The people of Monaghan did not think so. They have given us a vote of confidence.

If you regard that vote as a vote of confidence, it was rather close in the circumstances in which it was got.

If there was one single factor which got this Government into office on the 28th February last it was the hoo-ha they created about prices. In canvassing in my own constituency I met a number of people who told me they voted for me or my party before, but that prices had got out of hand and they thought the other politicians had a panacea for everything. The people were told that there would be no price increases. One tried to reason with these people and succeeded sometimes. With some of the people we did not succeed, but there would be no difficulty in reasoning with these people today.

The celebrated unfulfilled 14 points were talked about. The one above all others which was stressed and which apparently had some effect was the question of strict price control being introduced. The people were told that there would be no further increase in prices.

Three weeks ago Deputy Dowling asked originally the Minister for Industry and Commerce, although I understand the question was ruled out of order and was subsequently taken by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, the number of items that were on sale in this country which had not increased in price between March and November. Deputy Dowling was told that it was not possible to give that information, that the information in the index covered only mid-August, that this index was worked out every three months and that the mid-November one was not yet available.

Deputy Dowling asked for the figures up to mid-August and in answer he was told that there were 11 items. Of every conceivable commodity which one can buy there were only 11 items which have not increased in price between March and mid-August. I asked the rather obvious supplementary question that, if there were 11 items that did not go up in price, how many thousand items did, and I was told that I was out of order or something of that nature. Afterwards we got a list of the 11 items, which were given in a written, circulated reply. We examined the list and found that eight of the 11 items had increased in price since mid-August. Some of them were very obvious things like telephones and postage which we all know have increased drastically. Postage has increased by 20 per cent and telephone costs by 10 per cent or more. Some of the other items were ordinary household commodities which everyone knows have increased in price. There were three items about which we were not sure. The three of them may have gone up in price but at least we were giving the Government the benefit of the doubt in that respect. One of the items was neck mutton. I can remember that one. Neck mutton presumably is the neck of a sheep which, I would say, is not widely eaten in this country.

It is often used.

So far as one can find out, neck mutton is still the same price today as it was when we left those benches.

An almighty record.

Neck mutton. That is the achievement of the National Coalition. Neck mutton is still on sale today at the same price. That is the achievement of their majesties, the National Coalition, the main plank in their 14-point plan. Neck mutton is still the same price today. God help us.

The Deputy will appreciate that neck mutton and Fianna Fáil skin are comparable. That might be the explanation.

With that record the Minister should stay quiet or he will get more facts and figures.

He will. I am only winding up.

The Deputy is only starting.

I know. The Taoiseach spoke at length today about a lot of things that were not all that important. He spoke very briefly about something that is extremely important, the Council of Ireland, the Sunningdale communiqué and so on —extraordinarily briefly. Four pages of his speech were devoted to it. It seems incredible that the culmination of the most significant happening with regard to the constitutional future of Ireland should be dismissed in a major debate like this by the Leader of the Government only a few days after he had returned from the actual discussions or negotiations. That is bad enough, but going through his speech I find another matter which to my mind is exceptionally important. I suppose at appropriate times it is exceptionally important to the Taoiseach's mind also. He never mentioned one word about it. It is the question of security in this country.

It seems extraordinary that at a time when there were so many problems of this kind, when there is constant bloodshed in the other part of our country and, unfortunately, occasional bloodshed in this part, that the Leader of the Government in reviewing the past nine months, as he was doing today, saw fit not even to mention in passing this whole question of the security problem facing our nation north and south at the moment. There are many things one does not discuss with regard to security, particularly in my position because I was very intimately involved with it for three years. There are many things I should like to talk about, that I might, indeed, be able to talk about but which I do not propose to talk about. However, there are some things that one can talk about at a political level in relation to this.

We have now had nine months of this Government. When they were in Opposition in the three years before they formed a Government in March of this year, the single factor, perhaps, about which they kicked up the greatest fuss and about which they made the most strenuous and vehement opposition in this House and outside it was security and matters relating to it. I had responsibility in the last Government for the whole matter. I had a difficult job. I went through a period in those years I should not like to go through again and that I would hope none of my successors will ever have to go through. I had to do many things that were very difficult. it was very difficult to decide to do many of them. It was even more difficult actually to implement them.

The greatest problem, possibly, in relation to them was in this House. There were evils in this country that the law of this country was unable to cope with because the law of this country was not adequate. Because it was not adequate there was frustration on the part of those whose responsibility it is to enforce the law. That frustration and that inability, which were fully shared by me, made me resolve that I had to do what was necessary in this regard but that I would not do any more than was strictly necessary.

I introduced many Bills in this House in the three years I was in office, but there were three Bills in particular that related to security and allied matters in which difficulty was encountered in this House—difficulty is, indeed, an understatement because the most vehement and vigorous opposition was forthcoming. In point of time, the first of those three Bills was one which I was satisfied, after thinking about the problem for many months, was vital to stop a practice which had grown up in this country and particularly in this city, of squatting. It was not a question of homeless people going into a house or a flat because they had nowhere else to go, but squatting organised by the political fronts of illegal organisations here in Dublin and to a lesser extent elsewhere. People were put into property for the purpose of causing serious disruption and hardship to those who were entitled to be on that property.

This went on for a long period. The time came when I felt it could go on no longer. A most vehement and eloquent denunciation of the situation in regard to squatting, organised squatting, by the fronts of illegal organisations was made in this House by Deputy Fitzpatrick when he was Opposition spokesman for Justice in 1970. A very vigorous attack was made on my predecessor in office and on the Government of which I was then a member for our ineffectiveness in dealing with squatting and the fact that we did not bring in sufficient or adequate legislation.

After much thought I brought in a Bill to deal with the problem. Because the problem was serious—there were many complaints from all sides of the House and all sections of the public about it—I did not anticipate any great problem in relation to it. Little did I know. That Bill was passed after four months of the most intense parliamentary debate, the highlight of which was the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, speaking for six hours on Committee Stage on one word, with dictionaries that went back to the 14th or some other century. His justification for this conduct, in which he got every encouragement from Fine Gael and his colleagues in Labour, was that that Bill was outrageous, scandalous—I think one of his favourite phrases related to South Africa, not Ghana. He said it was the sort of Bill one would get in South Africa or in some other fascist or allegedly fascist country.

The Bill was passed at the end of August, 1971, after three weeks in the Seanad. The Seanad was comparatively civilised about it all and the weather was hot, which was a help. That Bill was obviously a necessary Bill and it worked. Within a couple of months the problem had disappeared because the Bill gave adequate powers to the Garda to deal with it. Once the front men who were organising this on behalf of illegal organisations had been shown up, as they could be under the Act, that was more or less the end of the problem. Now I believe there is occasional squatting but it is by unorganised individuals who are in need and about whom one should not in my opinion do very much, under the criminal law at any rate.

The next Bill was the Prisons Bill, 1972, which resulted from a riot in Mountjoy. This was very strongly opposed by the Labour Party who voted against it and who apparently by default at any rate, suggested that I should let a number of very dangerous people who were in Mountjoy free to roam the streets, rather than transfer them to somewhere else where they could be kept in custody. Statements were made at that time by the then Opposition, now in Government, highly critical of that Bill and of me, how unnecessary the Bill was, and so on.

Then we came to the most famous instance of all, the Offences against the State Bill, 1972. That is recent enough not to make it necessary for me to go into any great history in relation to it. I was satisfied after more than two and a half years in office at that time of the vital necessity for everything that was in that Bill and of the certainty that the provisions of that Bill were the minimum which were necessary to enable certain very serious problems which faced the Garda and the administration of law generally to be overcome. Phrases used relating to the Bill by the present Ministers for Justice, Lands and Foreign Affairs, are sufficiently well known not to need repeating. Perhaps repeating them ad nauseum would only cause personal embarrassment.

It was my good luck inasmuch as an unfortunate happening in this city on a night during the Second Stage debate which caused the Fine Gael Party to change their minds within a matter of minutes and allow that Bill to be enacted within a day or two later. Otherwise, I could have spent considerably more than the week I did in trying to get it through. The strength of the Opposition and the vehemence of the arguments used against the Bill and against me, and the motives which were attributed to me at that time by many people who are now in Government, made it a very difficult time for me. Only that I was totally resolved and satisfied in my own mind that that Bill was necessary, I might, perhaps, have wilted under the pressure and not ensured that I would see it through to enactment. The significant thing about this is that there was this vehemence of opposition to all those measures.

This Government have been in power for nine months. They have not repealed one comma of that or any other legislation I introduced. Not alone have they not repealed one comma of what they found so reprehensible and fit only for South Africa, Spain and Greece, and not for a civilised democratic country, but they have continued precisely the policies which I initiated and carried through during my term in office. They have not introduced any new approach to security. They have not done a single thing, which was not done, after all that legislation had been got through when the last Government were in power. That, of course, is the total vindication of what I did and of what I said. The silence from one Deputy in particular, Deputy L'Estrange, for the past nine months is, indeed, deafening. I would like to have heard him if we had been in office and I had been Minister for Justice on the 31st October, 1973. That would have been worth listening to.

No doubt he would still tell you that the Provos started over there. That is what you are concerned about.

I should like to have heard Deputy L'Estrange on the day that a member of this present Government allowed a ship which brought five tons of guns into this country to sail freely out of the jurisdiction——

We got the guns.

I doubt if there has ever been a responsible democratic country which caught somebody bringing in a very large quantity of guns and, within 12 or 24 hours, publicly directed him to leave the country.

An empty ship.

It seems incredible that no effort was made to investigate all the goings on in relation to that trip.

That is where the Deputy might be wrong.

Deputies will have an opportunity to make their contributions later. Deputy O'Malley.

Would the Deputy like to congratulate the Government on the recapture of one of the people who was rescued from Mountjoy and on the prosecution of persons suspected of being involved in assisting in the escape?

I do not think it is at all appropriate that a Minister should ask to be congratulated on the prosecution of someone whom he alleges was involved in helping people to escape from custody. It is most improper that a member of the Government should make references like this in the House. When I was on that side of the House I took very good care not to do that.

It is a move in the right direction.

I resent, as do a number of people, the blatant suggestion by the Minister for Finance that the Government should be congratulated on the capture of the gentleman in question. One would think that the Minister for Defence, Deputy Donegan, had swooped down on a motel in Portlaoise in his helicopter and had single-handed picked up this gentleman in the same way as the public were led to believe that he had swooped on the famous, or infamous, Claudia and that he subsequently threw out of the country without charging them the captain and the crew. It seems incredible that the Minister for Finance should ask that he and his colleagues in the Government should be praised or congratulated for the vigilance of an individual garda or prison officer.

There was resentment in the Garda Síochána, in the Army and in the Naval Service at the time of the Claudia because of the attitude adopted by members of the Government. I would have thought that the Government would have learned their lesson with regard to that type of thing. I am flabbergasted to find that the arrogance is such that at this hour of the night in a debate such as this, the Minister for Finance should intervene and interject when I am speaking to ask me to congratulate him and his colleagues in the Government on the fact that an individual garda at Portlaoise was vigilant enough to spot this man. I do not offer any congratulations whatever to the Government. I congratulate the gardaí who were involved and nobody else. It was no thanks to the Government that this man was recaptured. It was no thanks to the Government that the three men in question were allowed to escape. If the Government, on the insistence of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Ryan had not been trying to save money on the Garda Síochána as they were doing in the two months up to the 31st October, 1973——

That is not true.

I know it well. Saving on overtime, penny-pinching where the security of the State was concerned. The Minister learned his lesson from that. The Minister should save money somewhere other than on the security of the State.

The Deputy does not know it well. That is not true. That is a falsehood.

It is not worthy of the Deputy to make a statement like that.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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