Out of charity to Deputy O'Malley I rise with a prayer that his wit will soon return to him. I should also like to point out to him before he runs away that the gospel which he preached in his last sentence is entirely in conflict with the concept of a Council of Ireland and the great relief which the people of Ireland as a whole expressed when, at the conclusion of the Sunningdale Conference, they heard we were about to create in Ireland the greatest coalition which offered the greatest promise, because people of very different, conflicting political, cultural and religious views had decided to put aside their points of disagreement and to work instead within the areas of agreement.
Deputy O'Malley acknowledged at the end of his contribution that he ignored Sunningdale, because he had not got sufficient greatness of mind to rise to that occasion. Instead he embarked upon one of the most contemptible attacks I have ever heard in this House on people who can be clearly identified and are not in a position to defend themselves. There is no need for me or anybody else to say any words in reply to a person who abuses his position in this House to attack such a wide range of people who have given very distinguished service to this community in a multitude of ways.
The meeting of the Tripartite Conference at Sunningdale was an occasion unprecedented in the history of Ireland. Analogies have been drawn and no doubt will be drawn with other negotiations, but unlike all previous parleys between British and Irish chiefs, on this occasion the discussions have been between two sovereign States and the democratically elected representatives of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland who wish to live out their lives in peace and harmony and do not desire a conquest, be it military or verbal, over others.
The outcome of the conference is, in an Irish/British, Nationalist/Unionist context, astounding and almost incredible, if you reflect for any length upon our history. We have produced a ananimous agreement freely entered into to co-operate in establishing in Ireland a partnership for peace and prosperity, a joint venture for a better life for everybody in all parts of this island. A unique pledge from Britain has also been given for the first time to support this grand enterprise.
This agreement has been achieved without serious sacrifice of anybody's aspirations; indeed, I can say without any sacrifice of principle by any of the participants. Nobody has been bludgeoned or cajoled or conned into signing it. Nobody has been sold out or compromised or jeopardised by this agreement and by what we have achieved by this agreement. There has been no secret deal, no conspiracy, but there has been understanding, goodwill, generosity, and mutual determination, publicly declared, to get positive, beneficial and real results from the negotiations which began in Sunningdale and which we hope and dream, having started, will never stop.
The talks have succeeded because the intransigence and irreconcilability which have been such a feature of our history in the past were absent on this occasion. The protagonists of such notions as "no surrender", the "irresistible force" and the "immovable object", absented themselves, because bigot and fanatic have no time for moderation, reason, understanding or the basic principle which most people respect of "live and let live". For the first time since the Act of Union of 1800 we shall now have in this island an assembly and an executive representing the people of every part of Ireland and reflecting every shade of political opinion, allegiance and creed. It will be an assembly superior to the pre-1800 institutions because at that time people of certain religious beliefs were excluded. From now on nobody will be excluded except those who by their own volition refuse to come.
The 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty was described as a stepping stone. Very sincere men who loved their country and who were anxious to work for its betterment disagreed about that description. There is no point now in any argument on the part of those of us who were not then alive as to who was right or wrong, but what we do know is that nobody who disagreed wanted a civil war, and the people who suffered the bitterness and tragedy of the terrible disagreement that followed would not want the same to happen again.
The Council of Ireland now proposed is to me a bridge or causeway which can rise over the sea of suspicion, hatred and misunderstanding which has separated the different communities and traditions of the people in this island. It can span the abyss of prejudice, ignorance and intolerance which is the legacy of our history. Unfortunately, some of our contemporaries do not see the Council of Ireland as that. Perhaps those who see the Council of Ireland as a bridge find it difficult to accept as sincere those who would attack it but I suppose there are those who genuinely believe they belong to the age of the troglodytes or dinosaurs and who view bridges with great suspicion and are concerned only to undermine them and topple them and certainly fear that they should ever cross them.
There is now a simple choice for every man and woman in this island, either to try to destroy or refuse to cross and use that bridge, which is the Council of Ireland, or to join with the bridge-builders, to use the bridge, to meet people in the middle of it and, having met them, to cross and recross that bridge so that we can better get to know and love our neighbours. There is little difference between those who belittle the Sunningdale communiqué and those fanatical maniacs who last week physically assaulted fellow-members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The one thing these two groups of attackers do not want is that the builders of new institutions should succeed. There will come a time when the events of 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th of December, 1973, can be analysed dispassionately and objectively by historians but I feel sure the light of history when it comes quietly and accurately to record those events will see that Liam Cosgrave's calmness, compassion and integrity was the labour which bound conflicting elements together and if we as a people display the same virtues in months and years ahead, I believe Sunningdale can be a great beginning. The overwhelming hope of the people of this island, the ambition of the ordinary man, woman and child is to be happy within the family circle and about their daily labours. Those people want peace. This Sunningdale aspiration can give them that and to offer the Irish people anything less than that would be to do them a serious and unforgiveable violence.
Some Deputies here and commentators elsewhere have naturally sought for some elucidation of some paragraphs of the communiqué but, as the Taoiseach said, it would probably not be helpful to seek to parse and analyse any items of this communiqué which could be misunderstood elsewhere and we shall leave it to the growing spirit of co-operation in this country to develop this agreement in the positive way in which it can be most beneficial.
But I should like to deal with the executive and harmonising functions and the consultative role which are specifically referred to in the communiqué. In view of the number of major complex matters that had to be dealt with at the conference and of the administrative complexities obviously involved in the field of functions and of transferring functions there was not sufficient time to get down to details of the executive and harmonising functions of the new Council of Ireland. It was decided therefore, as a matter of common sense, that these would be the subject of further and more intense study to be carried out urgently and to be completed, as far as possible, sufficiently in advance of the next formal stage of the conference, which is to be held towards the end of January, to enable specific provision to be made for them in the agreement which will be signed at the conference. It may well be that it will not be found possible in the time available to reach agreement on all the matters in relation to which the Council will have executive or harmonising functions or a consultative role, but to the extent that agreement is reached — and we believe that a very substantial and wide-ranging agreement will be reached — they will be specifically provided for in the formal agreement.
The intention of the parties is to provide also for the addition and elaboration of further items according as they are examined, agreed on and defined in the period following the agreement and later by the Council of Ministers in the light of experience after the establishment and operation of the Council of Ireland. Arrangements are already in hand for the studies contemplated in the agreement and meetings of experts will take place next week and in following weeks to sort out the details of organisation, administration, personnel and financing and so on which will be involved in transferring executive functions to the Council of Ireland and even more so in giving to the Council the machinery and powers to carry executive decisions into effect.
Our aim is to ensure that the agreement will contain positive provision for the Council of Ireland to have a substantial content of executive and harmonising functions from the outset in order to establish it firmly as a body with real powers and greater possibilities for growth arising out of the mutual trust generated by Irishmen and women working together. I want to dispel any ideas that the Council would be merely a showpiece or a token body with little or no impact. At the same time I want to give an assurance that neither stress nor chicanery will be used by the representatives of the Irish Government or the Dáil to force reluctant members from Northern Ireland to go any faster than they want to go.
There is among sensible people on either side of the Irish political divide a much greater readiness to co-operate to mutual advantage than has been possible under existing institutions or than could often be admitted in public because of the spleen which so many ill-disposed people were ready to spread. The Council of Ireland can and will become a vehicle of genuine co-operation without anybody trying to force anybody else at a pace he would find unacceptable.
Certain criteria which should command general support are set out in the communiqué. We think that no reasonable person could quarrel with the objectives which the communiqué adumbrates for the executive functions of the council. Those objectives are (1) to achieve the best utilisation of scarce skills, expertise and resources; (2) to avoid, in the interests of economy and efficiency, unnecessary duplication of effort; (3) to ensure complementary rather than competitive effort where this is to the advantage of agriculture, commerce and industry. In view of the innovatory character of the council it is clear that much thought and study must go into the task of selecting matters which can more effectively and harmoniously achieve these objectives.
The communiqué also contains a list of contemplated specific functions. I should like to emphasise that this list is by no means exhaustive. The list includes the following: exploitation, conservation and development of natural resources and the environment; agricultural matters including agricultural research, animal health and operational aspects of the common agricultural policy; forestry and fisheries; co-operative ventures in the fields of trade, industry, electricity generation, tourism, roads and transport; advisory services in the fields of public health, sport, culture and the arts.
We had very wide-ranging and very friendly and fruitful discussions at Sunningdale on these and other activities. There was hardly ever discussion on any of these activities in which all parties were not involved, even when informal chats were taking place. People went out of their way to make sure that people representing different attitudes and different political opinions were brought in on them.
When we came to the drafting stage it became a matter of drawing up a fairly simple but representative list. As I said earlier, this inventory does not in any way prejudice the inclusion of other functions from time to time. We expect that future inspiration would come not alone from the Council of Ministers but from the Consultative Assembly which will be fully representative of this Dáil, both Government and Opposition, and likewise would represent all interests in the Northern Assembly. The council can have new functions developed to it from time to time and the devolution of these functions will be a matter for Oireachtas Éireann and for the Northern Ireland Assembly.
It will be necessary, therefore, to secure the agreement of the two administrations, North and South, on the extent of the functions to be undertaken by the council. We must see of course this involves agreement, but agreement between Irishmen is desirable in itself and we should not see agreement as an undesirable constraint. The British Government may have a particular financial or other interest so long as they are involved in Northern Ireland. Interests other than the financial one would include matters possibly arising in the EEC context but people North and South in Ireland today recognise that, as far as the inhabitants of this island are concerned the views of the Dublin Government would probably be of better benefit to the people of the North than views which might be spoken in their name by the representatives of the United Kingdom, because our economy and our requirements on this island are peculiarly our own and they are quite often at variance with those of the British Government so far as Britain itself is concerned. The British Government have agreed to co-operate positively in the devolution of functions to the Council of Ireland and if Irishmen can agree we need not anticipate any difficulty from the British side.
We see that the Council of Ireland could have executive functions of two kinds. It could take policy decisions on matters devolved to it, leaving the implementation of that policy to be carried out by the two existing administrations and, in respect of some services, I think that would clearly be for some time to come the better thing to do. It could also, in appropriate cases, and in some respects this would be better from the beginning, be entrusted with the responsibility of carrying its own decisions into effect.
At this point I should like to make it clear that all the parties to the tripartite conference were unanimous in opposing the creation of a third large layer of bureaucracy in this island. It was emphasised that the secretariat to the Council of Ireland should be quite small. In fact, this matter is regarded of such importance that it is specifically referred to in the agreement. Paragraph 7 says that there would be a secretariat to the council which would be kept as small as might be commensurate with efficiency in the operation of the council. I think that was a very reasonable rider to put into the communiqué, having regard to the experience which we have had in the Council of Europe, the EEC, the UN and other organisations which cross national boundaries. They have a capacity sometimes to grow beyond reasonable dimensions. Our anxiety is to have the most effective and independent secretariat to the Council of Ireland but not to have it of such dimensions as to make it a costly operation which would get out of touch with the two other administrations on the island.
The main functions of the secretariat will be to advise the council on the matters entrusted to it by the two administrations and to convey the council's views and decisions to the separate administrations. It will also ensure, through such supervision as may be approved, action throughout the whole island either separately or jointly to implement decisions of the Council of Ireland. While it is difficult to spell out very fully at this stage the matters in relation to which the council would exercise harmonising functions, there is clearly very great scope for harmonising in this country in matters such as regulations in the fields of animal health, hotel standards, vehicle licensing and testing, driver tests and so on. Given the wide range of subjects which could arise, it is clearly necessary to examine all of them closely with a view to reaching agreement on those which could be allocated to the council from the outset of its existence. These could, of course, be added to from time to time and as there would be agreement to do so.
Again there are many matters on which either administration could profitably seek advice from the council in relation to the island as a whole and matters on which joint consultation on mutual problems would be very advantageous. We would visualise that we would have consultations within the Council of Ministers in Ireland on the best line for Ireland to take in EEC decisions and this could give our Northern colleagues a new opportunity, a new outlet, to express their views. Indeed in the past there has often been quite an amount of unofficial consultation between experts in the North and South. This has not been because of our law but nevertheless it has been of very great benefit to both parts of Ireland and we would see this develop. It is hoped to be able to specify some of the consultative roles by agreement for inclusion in the proposed agreement. These too can be extended in the light of experience after the formation and commencement of operation of the council.
Early discussions are being arranged between North and South on these complex questions and we think that in a matter of some weeks we will have available a suitable list for consideration by those who will be involved in the formal conference early in the New Year. The Sunningdale communiqué dug for and put in the foundations for a new edifice of co-operation in Ireland. Sunningdale was an informal but vital get-together of Irishmen who, through mutual respect for the rights of one another, were able to see, respect and, to a large extent, meet each other's viewpoints. The real building must begin now. On everyone in this island lies the onerous personal obligation of deciding whether, on the one hand, his words or actions will over-run those foundations with weeds of hate, will bury them beneath more dead bodies or flood them in yet more Irish and other innocent blood or whether, on the other hand, these words and actions will build a secure structure on those foundations so as to help Irish men and women to a better understanding of one another.
As can be learned from the communiqué it was agreed at the conference that in the initial period the revenue of the Council of Ireland would be provided by means of grants from the two Administrations in Ireland towards agreed projects and budgets according to the nature of the services involved. Until such time as we know the extent of the functions assigned to the council we cannot estimate what budget may be required but by the time we complete the formal stage of the conference it should be possible to give to the Dáil a fairly reliable figure of the cost of the new institution and of the functions that may be transferred to it. The method of financing the various services will depend on the functions that the Council of Ireland would have, whether they would be executive, harmonising or merely consultative. This matter is being examined in the course of the other studies between North and South and we would hope to have some useful and concrete information in the not too distant future.
While the method of financing must be related to the functions it has been agreed that where expenditure is incurred in the area of the Republic or Northern Ireland, the revenue to meet that expenditure would be decided by the location of the expenditure. However, in some cases such as in the field of promotional activities, particularly abroad in respect of trade or tourism, the principle of dividing the cost by reference to where the benefit accrues has been adopted. While few will quarrel with the fairness and logic of that principle it may prove difficult in practice to establish objectively and conclusively how the benefit is distributed. It is for this reason that studies are now in hand of methods of financing the council which would be consonant with the responsibilities and functions assigned to the council. It is hoped to have these studies completed as soon as possible.
If Deputies reflect on my words in this regard they will understand why it was not possible to be more particular in specifying functions or financing methods in the communiqué but again I reassure the House that the mere absence of such specific detail should not be taken as an indication of any lack of readiness to undertake these new responsibilities. We want to examine them carefully and to ensure that as we start the Council of Ireland we make no mistakes. Once we put the locomotive on the rail we wish to keep it running and ensure that there should be no technical reason why it should jump the tracks.
At Sunningdale the question was mooted but left aside for further consideration of giving the council a greater degree of financial independence than would be represented by providing its revenue by way of grants from the two participating administrations. This question is being examined but the possibilities are limited by the fundamental fact that the council's functions will be devolved to it from two parliaments. As Deputies will appreciate, there is also a constraint within our own Constitution in relation to taxation. At this stage the best thing to do is not to anticipate what the outcome might be but to keep an open mind until such time as we have had some experience of the working of the council. By then I am sure a suitable formula could be adopted. We favour leaving the financial arrangements sufficiently flexible to accommodate future development in the council's roles and functions.
It would be undesirable, indeed foolish, to circumscribe it unduly by a rigid financing formula. Apart from the secretarial costs which are to be shared on a 50-50 basis it is unlikely that much, if any, additional liabilities will arise for us, certainly not in the early stages because it seems likely that for some time to come the council will prefer to operate agreed policies through the separate administrations. But this need not necessarily be so and in time there may be a change. When any such change comes about we can have another look at the financing arrangements. The more we work together and consult together the more it would be sensible to coordinate our activities so as to avoid overlapping and duplication of overheads.
At a later stage we will be liable for our due share, in accordance with the arrangements made, of the cost of new policies enunciated by the council in the areas of responsibility devolved to the council by the Oireachtas and by the Northern Ireland Executive. I am confident that the people, both North and South will be happy to remunerate a council that is operating to their benefit. There is not much greater taxable capacity in the North nor in the South. That is something on which every taxpayer will agree but it should be possible to devise new patterns of taxation and of expenditure which will bring about savings and reliefs. That will be one of the aims of the council.
It was agreed at the conference that if Britain should continue to pay subsidies to Northern Ireland, such subsidies would not involve British participation in the council. It is important that we emphasise that in this Assembly because there are people who, naturally, would resent British participation in a Council of Ireland. It is a participation that Britain does not seek and on that account the assurance can be given specifically that she will not be involved in the operation of the council. At the same time nobody could quarrel with Britain's legitimate request that her own financial position be safeguarded, but any arrangements made in that connection will be on an informal basis and will not be a constraint on the development of the Council of Ireland.
Sunningdale was not the only event of the last week or of the past nine months. We have had dramatic changes, too, in the south of Ireland which will confer great benefit on our people. Here I would make some reference to criticism that was voiced during this debate about the present state of the economy. Deputy Lynch claimed that if the present Government had not gone into office there would have been considerable expansion in growth this year. The truth is that if our Government had not taken over this year, and if Fianna Fáil had continued, as they were apparently willing to do, with the economic policies of the last four years, our growth rate this year would have been about 3½ per cent, or at most, 4 per cent. That would have been the maximum growth rate this year.
We decided, very deliberately, in preparing the budget to go for expansion, believing that any other policy would not only add to the growing number of unemployed we had under Fianna Fáil but also would add to our losses in international trade. We saw growth as an opportunity for us to increase employment, increase exports and substantially improve the standard of living here. It was as a direct consequence of our decision that the growth rate of this country, which has remained at 3 per cent for the last three years, has jumped in a matter of seven or eight months to beyond 6 per cent. In fact, if we did not face the constraints of the oil shortage our growth rate this year would be 7 per cent plus. That is as a direct consequence of our policies, policies which were attacked in the course of the budget debate and against which Fianna Fáil voted in this House on several occasions since we went into Government in March.
As a consequence of our policies we have reduced the number of unemployed by 7,000. We have increased agricultural incomes by 40 per cent; we have increased incomes in the nonagricultural sector by 17 per cent and there has been a growth of nearly 19 per cent in the gross domestic product as the result of our policies. The volume of consumer spending — I am taking the volume deliberately because if I took the value Fianna Fáil would claim that it contained an element of inflation — has risen by 6½ per cent. The expenditure of Government, in a deliberate effort to promote activity on current expenditure, rose by 7 per cent. The gross domestic fixed capital formation has risen by 11½ per cent in volume; the physical value of stocks has increased by £71 million; our exports have increased by 15 per cent visibly and 9 per cent invisibly and our imports, in so far as they have risen, have risen in the main due to the colossal increase in purchases from abroad to provide raw materials and capital goods for our industries. All of these clearly prove that the country now has a thriving economy as a result of the change of Government this year.
There are a number of constraints but the only ones that are at present upon us are those from outside the country. The extraordinarily high interest rates which are operating across the world are now about 5 per cent higher than they were in September, 1972. Never has mankind experienced the degree of interest rate inflation which the world has to endure this year. If Fianna Fáil have a cure for this would they please give it to us. Would they give some indication in the course of this debate what the cure is? Deputies Lynch and O'Malley have already spoken on this Estimate and Deputy Colley, this morning, spoke on the Agricultural Credit Bill, 1973. All acted indignantly about the high interest rates but offered no cure.
We are maintaining interest rates here at 1½ per cent less than interest rates in London which is the market with which we have the greatest mobility. While it is unpleasant for us to have to pay the high interest rates which are at present operating throughout the world we are keeping them to a figure which is lower than many other countries. These high interest rates are not peculiar to Britain: they are running right across Europe and beyond it to the United States of America. Many states in the United States of America have a law which prohibits interest rates rising above certain levels, but in most of these states they have had to amend those laws in order to take account of the massive increases operating in interest rates across the world.
In Germany, a country which has a very healthy economy and which if it has any illnesses at all is not subject to the same kind of illness as the British economy, the current overdraft rate is 14½ per cent. The overdraft rate in Britain is 14 per cent. I am taking the prime lending rate. In Germany the rate is 2 per cent more than ours while in Britain it is 1½ per cent above ours. Perhaps, even before I conclude here, we may hear that the London rate has risen yet again. There are five other countries in Europe which have rates comparable to ours and in no European country is the interest rate at the same level as it stood a year ago.
This has had the effect of slowing down the rate of investment in some securities. However, it is important to emphasise that the overall savings of our people are about £57 million greater than they were this time last year notwithstanding the colossal growth in expenditure in the statistics, a growth which, to a significant extent, was attributable to the justifiable social welfare increases we gave to the most necessitous people in our community. The fact that consumption spending has gone up shows that these people were well below the line of subsistence, and, having received a little extra in the budget, are spending it.
Even taking all the extra spending into account — and it should be clearly understood that it is not all of a necessitous type; some of it is of a luxurious type — we still have £57 million more being saved than we had this time last year and investment is on the increase. The shortfall arises in relation to funds which traditionally have been from the small depositor and have had interest rates related to the services which those funds finance. I refer, of course, to the Agricultural Credit Corporation, the Industrial Credit Corporation and the building societies — all organisations which have an immense social purpose. The conflict which arises is that in many respects, because of the massive and very rapid changes in bank interest rates across the world, people are being tempted to switch their money to funds which seem to give them, in the short term, great profit. However, people should beware. When people are offering extraordinarily high interest rates they are not doing it for the good of the depositor; they are doing it because there are serious risks involved or because they are engaged in some highly speculative and possibly antisocial purposes. Therefore, people would be well advised to concentrate on the legitimate and long respected forms of investment.
The Fianna Fáil Party have been endeavouring to make some mischief out of the result of the recent national loan. In my view the result of the national loan, having regard to the circumstances, was quite good. I wonder what a Fianna Fáil Minister would have done if the day after he issued a national loan the prime interest rate in London had risen by 1¾ per cent? I am sure Deputy O'Kennedy knows well that in those circumstances the national loan which was issued here was bound to produce a result less beneficial than would have occurred if it had taken place the week before this very surprise move on the London market.
