Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 14 Dec 1973

Vol. 269 No. 13

Arts Bill, 1973: From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education (Mr. Bruton)

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:

SECTION 11.

1. In page 4, between lines 15 and 16, a new section inserted before section 11 as follows:

"(1) The Council may establish any or all of the following:

(a) a committee to advise on painting, sculpture and architecture,

(b) a committee to advise on music,

(c) a committee to advise on the drama, literature and the cinema."

Amendment No. 1 is basically to allow the council to set up a network of advisory committees in the three main areas of the Arts, visual, music, drama and literature. This will enable the council to draw on expertise and advice outside its own members. They will be enabled also, to ensure fuller representation from all areas of the country and in every aspect of the Arts so that in appraising and assessing the needs of the Arts in Ireland they will be casting their net as wide as possible. I should point out that the amendments do not tie down the council in so far as they require them to do this in any particular way.

The amendments are permissive and persuasive in their intention rather than mandatory but I am confident that the council will, as a consequence of these amendments, set these committees up. It was argued strongly in the Seanad that there was need to bring in people from outside the membership of the council who would have expertise in areas which the 16 members of the council might not necessarily have. This recognises the fact that the Arts are very diverse and it was necessary to ensure that there were more people than the central council to ensure that every diverse aspect of the Arts was given a hearing.

The advisory committee will, it is hoped, also serve to press the council forward as much as possible by bringing in a larger number of people who are in direct contact with the day-to-day concern of those who are involved in the Arts, either as producers of art or consumers of the various art forms. The Government are satisfied that such a second informal tier of operation could be of value to the Arts Council in this work. This amendment was agreed to after long and useful debate in the Seanad and is recommended to the Dáil.

Deputies will also notice that the cinema has been included with one of these committees. They will see, when they come to discuss amendment No. 2, that the cinema has been added to the definition of the Arts in the terms of reference of the Arts Council.

Ruairí Brugha

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary. I have not had the benefit of reading the report of the Seanad debate but I see no objection to these amendments. Could the Parliamentary Secretary give me any idea of the size, not the composition, of the committees?

Mr. Bruton

Each committee will have nine members and the chairman of each committee will be a member of the Arts Council. The other committee members will not be, but the link between the council and the committees will be achieved through the chairman.

Mr. Lalor

We have now been told the size of these committees and when the Bill was in this House we discussed the appointment of members of the Arts Council. The Taoiseach will appoint them. Will he also appoint the members of the committees or will they be selected by the council?

Mr. Bruton

That is correct.

Mr. Coogan

Which fields will they cover in the world of art? Will they have a connection with the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards?

Mr. Bruton

The council will select the committee members. There are to be three committees, the first dealing with painting and sculpture and architecture, the second dealing with music and the third dealing with drama, literature and the cinema. They are the main arts areas. The areas listed are not exclusive and the committees could be advised by the council to give advice on matters other than those referred to in the amendment. The council will be the central body. In the debate on the Bill here it was suggested that films should be defined in the Bill as an art form and the Seanad agreed and an amendment was accepted to include films in the definition.

Mr. Coogan

Although I appreciate art for arts sake I should not like to see a lot of arty crafty people doing very little work and spending public money.

Mr. Bruton

I can assure the Deputy that the Taoiseach will be most conscientious in appointing the members of the Arts Council and I feel confident that the Arts Council, in turn, will be most conscientious in appointing the members of the advisory committees.

Mr. Healy

I welcome the inclusion of the film as an art form because it is generally realised that films can give a very worthwhile projection of the Arts. There is also, of course, the educational film.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Bruton

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:

SECTION 12.

2. In page 4, line 32 a new subsection as follows inserted before subsection (1):

"Section 1 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion of `the cinema,' after `drama,'."

I have already indicated that the cinema is being included in the definition of "the arts". While the development of the cinema as a commercial proposition would be a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce, it was felt that there could be occasions in respect of which the Arts Council could do advisory work in regard to the development of an appreciation of the film. The 1951 Act precluded the Arts Council from such activity and in the Seanad several Members felt that the definition should be amplified to include this subject.

Mr. Coogan

Does the Bill cover Irish stepdancing? After all, it is part of our culture.

Mr. Bruton

I understand the original Act contains provisions which cover dancing as an art form.

Mr. Coogan

It is not in this Bill.

Mr. Bruton

It is in the original Act and therefore the council can deal with matters relating to the promotion of dancing.

Mr. Coogan

Will they?

Mr. Bruton

I understand the Arts Council have been dealing with dancing as an art form and there is every reason to believe they will continue to do so.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Surely it should be defined as athleticism, if not exercise.

Mr. Wilson

I was hoping to see pottery included but I assume that would come under the provision in relation to sculpture.

Mr. Bruton

I do not think there is any great problem about that.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Bruton

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:

3. In page 5, lines 32 to 36 deleted, and the following substituted:

6. (1) a member of the Council, other than the Chairman, shall be paid out of the funds at the disposal of the Council, such allowances in respect of expenses as the Taoiseach, after consultation with the Minister for Finance, may determine.

(2) The Council may out of their funds, if they think fit, reimburse any member of an advisory committee established pursuant to section 11 of the Arts Act, 1973, for any out-of-pocket expenses incurred by him as a member of the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Amendments reported and agreed to.