I take this opportunity of wishing the Minister well in the frightful task which lies before him. Anybody who believes in democracy will give him all the help possible so that he can protect the weaker sections from the stronger and more violent sections of the community.
The Minister has covered very good points in his brief. There are certain aspects of the record for the last year with which I am not very happy. The Government propose to appoint a Director of Public Prosecutions and come to the aid of FLAC—the Free Legal Advice Centre. These people are doing such wonderful work that they deserve all the help we can give them. I hope that the grant which is being given to them will be sufficient not alone to maintain their present service but to expand it.
An incident which worried me a great deal took place two months ago. Before going into detail on this I should like to state that we always thought that justice must not alone be done but be seen to be done. The incident I wish to refer to occurred in County Donegal. A number of men were arrested there and it was specifically stated by several people that they were arrested so as to create a good impression to help a certain politician in the North. With the exception of one man all those arrested were released the following day, something which suggests that in this exercise there was a grain of truth in the allegation that we were not so much seeking to apprehend wrongdoors but that we were trying to safeguard a politician in the North from the wrath of his own party.
Every politician in the democratic world has trouble within his ranks at some time but one could imagine what would happen if we were to continue this sort of practice. It would be a terrible situation if in order to save somebody in public life a guard would act in this way and arrest people not as an exercise in justice but as an exercise in politicking. The guards were being used, therefore, not for the sake of justice but for some queer cynical and political exercise. It reminded me too much of George Orwell's book, 1984, where he predicts that “Big Brother” will arrive by that time. Big Brother, being the State, will decide that anything goes if we are going to perpetuate the Establishment.
This is wrong and the exercise of arresting these men has driven a lot more people to sympathise with what we call the subversives. It has also caused us to stop, to think and to remark that it is possible that all the claims these people are making are not false. I hate to see our very fine Garda force being used in such an exercise. The Garda force, since their establishment and down the years, have portrayed an image of efficiency and fair play. I would hate to see anything happening that would tarnish that reputation. Very few people today would help to bolster the Establishment if it were to indulge in exercises such as this.
The Minister should take steps to to ensure that this will not happen again. If the Garda have suspicions that certain people are engaged in subversive activities the legislation is there to apprehend these people. Fifteen people should not be hauled in merely for the sake of making the path easier for a Northern politician when he faces the wrath of his party. What happened was a cynical exercise and one that should not be repeated no matter what effect it is to have on the North.
Police forces, indeed, the whole form of Government, are under attack not alone in Ireland but all over the world because our society has changed so much. It is a strange fact that the more affluent we become the more dissident we become. As we get wealthier the crime rate gets bigger. The Minister's figures in relation to crime are alarming. He told us that while the figures rose last year over the previous year they were not as high as in previous years. The Minister suggested that because the detection rate in London is lower than ours we should not become complacent. It should be remembered that London has a population of almost ten million people and that the society there is almost completely materialistic. Therefore, without adopting a holier than thou attitude, I suggest there is no comparison between London and our State. We have only one-third of the population of London in this State and, generally, our people think differently from those residing in London. Therefore, we must be alarmed by the crime rate.
I am not referring to the individual who is apprehended for stealing an apple or a packet of cigarettes but there are people in the city who are making money out of crime. Very often these people are not apprehended. When people are being sentenced for crimes we should take into account their background. It sometimes happens that society has offended against such people by the very fact that society did not give them a chance. I am not suggesting that all law breakers come from one section of our society. We occasionally have the big-time operator, who has, perhaps, defrauded his wealthy company and has had all the advantages that society can offer, breaking the law. The fact is that as human beings we err occasionally and come into contact with the law and are punished accordingly.
I am aware of the work of the Garda crime squad and the methods they use in detecting crime. These men must work in ways which cannot be publicised. However, I wonder if we have sufficient gardaí in this city which will soon have one million people so that we can meet the challenges which our society will face in a short time. If we continue to accept that the anglo-American society, and its standards, are correct we must face the fact that the crime rate there results from the fact that the old laws have been overthrown. The new morality, that might is right or that money can buy anything, will give us a legacy of crime which will continue to increase. People who cry for more liberty in every aspect of their life must face the fact that they will have the problems which English and American societies have.
The great crime rates in the world are in the developed societies. We have to face the fact as we change our laois and as we try to ape the Americans we are going to have a crime rate as great as theirs in proportion to their population. Some future Minister will point out that respect for the law is dying out and people are not co-operating with the police force. In England there is a complete reversal of what used to be the solid English character whereby people always co-operated with the local constable. Because of this change they have a crime rate in England which will not improve unless there is a change in the attitude to morality and life in general.
I have watched the Minister since his appointment, and his attitude in regard to the prison services generally. I accept that he is trying hard to improve the whole prison service. With Deputy Andrews I visited prisons in the city. Having read about and seen demonstrations about the allegedly frightful conditions I was pleasantly surprised when I visited St. Patrick's and Mountjoy. A prisoner in either institution is assured of food, clothing and lodging. These items are the right of any man but they are guaranteed to a prisoner although he may not thank us for them. I walked every inch of Mountjoy prison and I saw what is being done. I met the officials of the prison and I wish to pay tribute to them for the valuable work they are doing. Having accepted the fact that we must have prisons, an effort is being made to have the highest possible standards. Mountjoy prison is very old but when I asked a qualified person if he would make changes if he were designing a prison he replied he would make very minor ones. The radial complex at Mountjoy is thought to be the most suitable.
I was disappointed with the educational facilities offered. I should like to pay trbiute to the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee and to the Minister for their work, but we have much to do in this connection. We should ensure that enough money is provided so that young people in particular can be given the best possible educational facilities. We must remember that the vast majority of prisoners have been denied educational opportunity in the free society. If a person does wrong he must be punished but we should ensure that on his release from prison he is better educated. Lack of education is at the bottom of many of our ills. Any money spent on extending the educational facilities in Mountjoy will repay society a thousand-fold, apart from helping the prisoners.
In the last few years our prison service has been the target of subversive elements in our society. It is easy to see their intention; if they could wreck the prison service this would be the key to bringing about the downfall of a democratic society as we know it. We must try continally to improve the prison service but I am convinced that it is as good as we can make it at the moment and I am not complacent when I make that remark. This is known even to the subversive elements who parade around this country as well as elsewhere. The objective of the most violent subversive groups is to bring down the prison service. If we have not a place in which to put people who break the law it is easy to imagine the type of society in which we would live.
These subversive groups do not attack the State on financial or social issues but they try to show that the prison service is very bad. Irish people in particular are concerned, perhaps they are even a little soft, about anyone who loses his liberty and is put in prison. This may not be a bad trait because it shows we are concerned about our fellow-men. The Department of Justice must tell the people what they are doing to improve the prison service, especially with regard to educational facilities. This is a matter of the greatest importance. We must show that democracy, despite all its drawbacks, is the best system. Some of the subversive elements may try to import a kind of Marxist doctrine here without mentioning the kind of prisons in the country where the Marxist-Leninist doctrine prevails. Our prisons are humane but are in need of improvement all the time.
We do not want to provide bigger prisons; we hope they will never be necessary, but recently certain disturbing things have happened. The other day a young boy was charged with a dreadful crime against an old person but he could not be sent to a home because there was no place for him. The boy was very young and with treatment he might have become a good citizen. None of us was very mature at 15 years. We come back to the educational facilities available. The boy I have mentioned has probably left school; he will probably drift around for a while until eventually he is tried and possibly sent away. This young person should be examined by a psychiatrist or a doctor who would examine his background. He should not be allowed to roam the streets and get into more trouble.
I should like to pay tribute to the welfare officers, the prison officials and the visiting committees. The latter group are not paid but they spend a considerable amount of time carrying out their work. With goodwill we can ensure that our prison service will be second to none. The reason I place emphasis on the prison service is that last year or the year before there was an attempt by subversive elements to disrupt the service. We all know what happened in the various prisons. This would have been the coup de grâce to bring down the democratic system, a short cut to anarchy. It did not succeed and I do not believe it will ever succeed. At the same time we must ensure that our actions are not spiteful or penal but are taken in the interests both of the people who do not break the law and those who break the law. We should seek to reform those in prison and ensure that our prison service is second to none. We must ensure that if people are making money from crime they will be put in prison— not the poor devil who steals a loaf or a packet of cigarettes. We must get the “bigtimers” who make money out of vice. I should like to pay tribute to the Garda vice squad for the work they are doing in this city.
I mentioned the appointment of the public prosecutor. I hope that when he is being appointed the Government will ensure that he is the best man for the job, and that he will not be appointed because of his political affiliations. We owe it to the country to ensure that legal appointments are not made because of political motivations. I am not suggesting that if a man has strong political affiliations, that should be held against him. Legal appointments should be made on the basis of ability in legal matters. We would sleep more soundly at night if we believed in our hearts and souls that the very best men were being appointed to the jobs, irrespective of political or lack of political affiliations. In some of their appointments the previous Government showed that this was the right practice to adopt. They set a pattern which I hope the present Government will follow.
Deputy Begley, the Parliamentary Secretary, mentioned prosecutions for not having a tail-light on a car and that type of thing. In Dublin to a great extent the Garda are not so concerned with traffic matters since the traffic wardens were appointed. If you are driving at night on any of our suburban roads or streets you will find cars parked dangerously at corners. If you tell the owners that they cannot park there they tell you it is after 6 o'clock, whatever that means, as if it were a magical hour after which motorists can do what they like to a great extent. I am not criticising the Garda on this point. I know they have a lot of work to do nowadays.
The traffic wardens are doing a very good job in some cases. Theirs is not a very popular job. With the number of cars on our roads increasing by something like 7 per cent per year, we must tackle the traffic problems, particularly in the city. We will be spending millions of pounds on roads in the next few years. Many traffic surveys have been carried out. Perhaps somebody will suddenly discover that our traffic regulations are bad and that they are causing congestion on the roads. The cry is for new roads. If we had more thinking on traffic matters we might save a lot of trouble and prevent accidents. I have never seen a garda chasing a person because he had no tail-light on his car.
There is another matter which does not come directly under the Department of Justice but which should be examined. I understand there are many young people driving in the city without insurance because they cannot get insurance at a reasonable rate. I presume their cars are not taxed either. This is terribly wrong. One can imagine the trouble caused to a person who is involved in a serious accident if the car is not insured. The Minister for Justice in conjunction with the Minister for Industry and Commerce should examine this aspect of car insurance for young people and people who are not so young.
In this city a 40 per cent loading charge is added. When I queried this I was told that accidents are more common in Dublin than elsewhere and therefore an extra 40 per cent is charged. To my mind this is wrong. Accidents may well be more common in Dublin but there are many drivers in the city who never had an accident. They are being deprived of any remission on their policy simply because somebody decided that there are more accidents in Dublin than elsewhere. You might as well say there is more crime in Dublin—which there probably is—and therefore we should impose extra tax on Dubliners. The Minister should inquire into how many cars are being driven in the city without insurance. He should then get in touch with his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce to hammer out a proper insurance scheme for young people and for the not-so-young. I am sure the Minister will say he has plenty on his plate without taking on another Minister's job but, strictly speaking, it is his job also. These people are driving without insurance and, therefore, they are breaking the law.
The Parliamentary Secretary also referred to security men in supermarkets. I have no experience of what he said but I accept that it is true if he says it. There has been a tremendous growth in security services in the past few years because we could not ensure that the State police force could take on all these jobs and give results. I am not terribly enamoured of security forces. In many cases they are doing a dangerous job but I wonder is it not the State's job. It may be said that we could never have a police force large enough to take on all the jobs.
What we are seeing is a phenomenon of the 20th century: private police forces. With the trouble in the North they have to be employed in certain buildings to prevent people from placing bombs and, perhaps, they have saved some lives. I have never known them to abuse their position but the Government should examine the whole set-up of peace-keeping forces. We have the Garda and the Army. Now we have traffic wardens. These private security forces should be examined. I am not condemning them in the least. They are doing a good job in some ways. We have now accepted the principle that uniformed men can carry out certain duties. The Government must decide where this is to stop and whether they should set up comprehensive crime prevention units in which these people would have a place.
The Parliamentary Secretary talked about people who are accused of shoplifting. I understand that shoplifting is a very big problem especially in the city. Again, who should deal with it? The forces of the State appointed by a democratically-elected Government or some private concern who set out not so much to preserve or protect property as to get a financial dividend? I have some qualms as to whether we should have a force motivated not with a desire for the common good but as a business enterprise giving a service. The Government must now examine the spread of these organisations and what their duties actually are, and how they can be absorbed or involved in our own crime prevention organisations. In every city in the world now you see these men. They are a product of the 20th century which, at times, seems to be going crazy. I suppose all through history there have been these phases, although they were not as sophisticated as they are today. We must ensure that the State will offer the greatest possible protection to all citizens. Therefore, I would not condemn these private bodies; we should examine the position, see what power they should have, if any, and try to make sure these powers are used for the prevention of crime rather than its detection.
We often hear the cry today: "Protect youth". I wonder if the State is doing all it possibly can to ensure that by the use of our instruments of democracy we are ensuring that our youth is not being perverted by alien influences, deliberately or otherwise. I refer to censorship of books and films. I know that the film censor has been criticised for allowing some pictures through but one must sympathise with him. He may ban a picture from being shown in, say, a Dublin cinema but how often when one goes home and switches on television does one see a programme which borders on the erotic? While the censor can penalise the cinema owner there is no way of keeping out a foreign channel if we wanted to do so. In future, under the policy of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, when we share the British stations, we shall have an extension of this problem. The Government cannot stop it unless we ignore democratic procedures. If somebody wants to watch a foreign channel there is no power to stop him —I do not suggest we want to stop him. Therefore, we shall have some of this evil propaganda coming into the privacy of the home. We certainly would not tolerate the idea of having a police force that would try to watch, as "Big Brother" watches, what is on the television screen.
What can we do? We can educate our youth to put this imported material in its proper place. We are one of the oldest of western civilisations and we are not going to succumb to the influence of the material turned out by film and television studios or publishers. Some time ago we had a shop which was selling erotic reading matter. I questioned the owner and pointed out that these books which were erotic were beside children's books. I drew her attention to this and she said: "Do not worry; it is all mature men who buy these books," meaning the erotic books. I wonder how mature they were. This person for sheer profit was selling these books. If under the centorship laws I wanted to get these books banned I should have to buy three successive copies of the book and send them to the censor. I am told those who make money out of pornography do not issue three successive copies but bring out one publication on which a big amount of money is made. When that is sold out they do not repeat it but take something else, out of which they make more money. If somebody had the time and mind to follow up these things and tried to buy three successive copies he could not do so. The view is, I am told, that if you produce one of these pornographic books that is all right if you do not repeat it but these publishers are producing one book under a certain name and then the next will have a different address and perhaps a different publisher's name and, of course, a different title. They can produce possibly 50 of these in a year and make a great amount of money and do frightful damage to young people.
I realise the difficulty facing any Minister trying to curb this pornographic penetration. I suggest, however, that he has some power over the written matter even if he cannot control television. A television programme may last an hour or so and life changes so rapidly now that one may forget that programme after a week but printed matter is lying around all the time, being passed from hand to hand and is much more dangerous and insidious. When I see young people in trouble and being taken away when they have done something wrong and "disgraced the family" I often think that it is not the youngster or his family who should be in the dock but the person who wrote the pornographic matter and influenced the young wrongdoer and made a profit from it.
The Minister might well look at the censorship laws. Censorship is regarded, perhaps, as old-fashioned until one realises that we are paying for this attitude in crime and wrongdoing. In this country we still have an opportunity of showing that you can have a good society without pandering to the demands of people who want to have a "way-out" society. If it suits them they can always start an agitation and build it up to suggest that some small problem is really a great problem. We cannot alter the law to give more of what is called freedom and continue doing this without paying some price. If we examine other societies we find that they gave in to these demands in the interests of personal liberty and now face terrible problems. This is so much the case in Britain that they have to introduce legislation to try to curb the growth of crime and vice and pornography. I am told this measure will be tougher than anything we have had here. I hope to get a copy of this legislation. If, in sheer desperation, they are trying to remedy some of the ills of their society and correct some of the frightful exploitation of youth by money-mad speculators in pornography, should we not take stock here and see what we can do to try to save young minds, particularly, from this onslaught of vice and crime? There is no use blaming them or putting them in prison when they commit crime.
This year the Department of Justice will spend £34 million. I hope that at least half that sum will go on crime prevention rather than detection. Some of the stress in the North must overflow into the South. People should realise that that will eventually pass and peace will come to the North and to the South as well. People on both sides in the North have done wrong. The fact that hundreds of people have been killed shows how terribly wrong they have been. When the trouble in the North is over I believe we will face in this part of the country as big problems as they have in the North, although they may be on a different scale. It will get harder and harder for any Government to rule in an equitable and honest way. Therefore, we have got to examine where our society is going and what we can do to prevent crime. We must also perfect our means of detecting crime.
In the most affluent parts of the world today they have to fight crime and they have got to examine why people commit crime. It may be that the Ten Commandments are considered a bit out of date but what a wonderful world we would have if they were not so out of date. I feel that soon society in general will look at crime and realise that adherence to the principles laid down in the Ten Commandments is the solution to all our ills.
We have no racial problems in this part of the country because, apart from anything else, we have a small and not a very cosmopolitan population. Nevertheless, we have got problems which face the more sophisticated societies of the world. Generally speaking, we are approaching our problems in the right way, but I do not think we are approaching them speedily enough or putting enough effort into solving them. We are inclined to suggest that some of the things that happen in other parts of the world could not happen here. We are adopting the Anglo-American type of society. We are inclined to accept the things that happen without question. It is our duty to question what is happening.
We should try to educate our youth not to accept without question everything in books and films from abroad. They have no greater merits than the books written here or the films made here. They should examine the principles enunciated in these films and books. It is our duty to ensure that our youth are given the education they deserve because if we try to save on this type of thing we will pay very dearly afterwards.
We should not put all our emphasis on youth. Some of our old people are having a rough time in some of our housing estates. I am not suggesting that this is new because when we were all young we sometimes jeered at old people. However, because we are living in a different type of society today our old people are getting it rather rough. While most emphasis is put on youth problems the Minister might, in co-operation with the Garda and the various voluntary bodies who do great work with the old people, look at the problems facing old people in our society. It is not so bad in our rural society because we have not the concentration of old people we have in the city. The Minister should ensure that the various voluntary bodies who work with old people have the full backing of the State so that those old people will be given full protection.
Recently we saw in the paper where a person of 84 was brutally attacked. We may well ask ourselves what type of society we are living in. That is an isolated case but I feel that today life has changed so greatly in the social sphere that the old people may be the first to suffer. The Minister should set up a section in his Department to examine the problems of old people. He should seek advice on the housing of old people. When one is preparing a housing scheme for old people it is not always easy to put them into a built-up area because it means they will have a noise problem and we cannot isolate them.
I came across a case recently where windows were broken in old people's flats by a person who was caught and was said to be a drug addict. I doubt that because I noticed that the three windows he smashed were the windows of flats occupied by old women. He did not smash any windows of flats occupied by men. Sometimes we come across people who are not normal human beings, who suffer from certain defects but glory in this and get sympathy from people.
I do not suggest that the problem of the aged in Dublin is very great. Indeed, it is a proud boast of Dublin that when we had the old tenements nobody died alone because there was always somebody near. Society has changed and sometimes our old people are stranded in houses away from their friends. Their problems are much greater than they were years ago. I do not believe they are as happy as they were when they were in the old tenements. Old people are weak and cannot look after themselves very well. We have some dedicated gardaí who try to look after those old people and see that they are not disturbed at night. The officials in the Department of Justice, from the top to the lowest on the ladder, are dedicated to making our society a better one but I do not know if they have the facilities to do this. We may be skimping on the money we give them but if we skimp on money for this Department we will reap a harvest later which will cost us a lot more money to try to heal the damage done to the fabric of our society. It is bad economics to skimp on money for this Department. We should ensure, if the Minister for Justice requires more money to run his Department, that he gets it. While we on this side of the House may criticise the Government for spending too much sometimes— this is natural for an Opposition Party —we will ensure that the Government will allocate the moneys they are spending to the Departments which need it most. The Department of Justice needs all the money it can get because we are behind some countries in our set-up of peace-keeping forces.
I have spoken at length in connection with the Garda Síochána. I would ask the Minister to consider the condition of some of the Garda stations in Dublin city. There is a Garda station in Irishtown which must be 200 years old. Up to recently a passerby could see the cells there. In the old days the public were able to look at a prisoner in his cell and even to torture him by staring at him. The doors have been closed so that the cells are hidden from public view. I suggest that a new Garda station should be built in this district. It is almost impossible for a member of the public to discuss a matter with a garda in that station with any degree of privacy. The building is very old and the situation is unsuitable. There is no parking space around the station. The gardaí have to park their cars at some distance from the station. I have appealed on previous occasions for the provision of a new station in the area. The population of the area is increasing. The area is a very quiet one. The gardaí tell me it is one of the quietest in the city from their point of view. At the same time we should not impose on the generosity of the gardaí there, who are doing a great job in terrible surroundings.
A Garda station should be regarded as part of the broad educational scene. A Garda station should not be merely a place to which wrongdoers are brought. A Garda station should have a role in educating people to the fact that society must be protected and that justice must be done and must be seen to be done by every member of society. This must be a difficult role having regard to the conditions in which the Garda Síochána work in the case of this old building. Some people suggest that the building is Georgian; it would seem to me to go back to the Plantagenets.
I would ask the Minister to have regard to the condition of Garda stations. The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Begley, referred to a station in Kerry which has not got a telephone. I am sure that the station in Irishtown to which I have referred has got a telephone but that makes the appearance of the building all the more ludicrous because of its age and bad design.
I would conclude by asking the Minister to consider the censorship laws governing printed matter; to review the accommodation provided for young offenders; to carry out a comprehensive review of Garda stations which need replacing. If the Garda Síochána have not proper conditions in which to work the best results will not be obtained. The importance of conditions of work was realised by industry many years ago. That is why there are garden factories and that type of thing. The gardaí who do not protest all that much, are entitled to proper conditions of work. I do not think the House would cavil at the extra expense involved if the Minister were to propose in this year the building of 20, 30 or more new Garda stations.
I look forward to some of the legislation the Minister has promised in the near future. I assure him that while we will be very critical he will not find us wanting in support for any worthwhile measure that he may introduce.
