Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 May 1974

Vol. 273 No. 1

Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Bill, 1974:Report Stage.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 2, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:

"employer' means a person or persons who engage others under a contract of service or apprenticeship or a contract personally, to execute any work or labour or any firm, partnership, subsidiary company or other body substantially controlled by such person or persons;".

We feel there is a necessity for the definition of "employer" in the Bill. "Place," remuneration,""Minister" and "employee" have been defined and we feel it is desirable that "employer" should be defined. I ask the Minister to accept this particular definition of "employer".

Deputy Dowling's amendment is simply meant to add additional things to further strengthen section 2(2). We have already extended this section to include associated employers and it is analogous to similar definitions in comparable legislation elsewhere. This amendment introduces a concept such as "firm". I am informed by our legal people that our legal definition of such would be corporate body. The definition here does not extend the section as now drafted and I do not see any additional concept added in this particular amendment that either extends its scope or improves the definitions already used in the section.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, line 30, after "agreement" to insert "or order".

This is a consequential amendment. The subsection will now read:

Where after the commencement of this Act an agreement or order to which this section applies...

This would include such things as employment regulation orders and so on.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 4, to delete lines 9 to 11 and substitute the following:

"(ii) require an employer or his representative to produce to him any records, books or documents in the employer's power".

This is to meet a point Deputy Dowling made on Committee Stage when he voiced his misgivings about section 6 (4) (a) (ii). This subsection provides that an equal pay officer may require any person who appears to him to be in charge of the premises to produce documents and so forth. Deputy Dowling moved an amendment during Committee Stage to provide that an employer or his nominee would have to produce such documents. I indicated at that stage I would further consider the matter on Report Stage. That is why I have put forward this amendment to require an employer or his representative, which I think is a bit more exact than nominee, to produce to him any records, books or documents in the employer's power. I hope this will meet Deputy Dowling's point.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 4 and 4a are consequential and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 6, to delete lines 28 to 40 and substitute the following:

"(1) Where a woman claims from her employer the same rate of remuneration as a man employed by the same employer (or by an associated employer within the meaning of section 2) in the same place on like work and subsequent to the making of the claim the employer dismisses the woman from her employment solely or mainly because she made the claim, the employer shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100 or on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £1,000".

This is an improving subsection. There is no radical alteration but the amendment certainly makes it simpler where prosecutions are necessary to proceed on those prosecutions. It is mainly a suggestion by the draftsmen's office to get more clearly the intent of this legislation, that where an employer takes action against a person who seeks equal pay it will be easier to prosecute in such circumstances.

Does amendment No. 4 in any way impinge on my amendment No. 6?

I do not see that it does. This is just an improvement.

A woman who takes a civil action because she is dismissed might well do better than £1,000 which, after all, is only a year's salary. Could she opt to sue the employer for wrongful dismissal under the law? We are tieing her to £1,000 and an employer might find it a better proposition to give her the £1,000, and get rid of her, rather than have her sue him under the ordinary law.

This is only the fine. She will always be free to go to the courts for damages, if damages apply.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 4a:

In page 6, line 43, to delete "referred to in subsection (1) (a)", and in line 44, to delete "referred to in subsection (1) (b)".

This amendment is consequential.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 7, line 14, after "employer" to insert:

"(or by an associated employer within the meaning of section 2)".

This amendment is consequential.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 7, line 33, after "remuneration" to add "and in addition the Court may by order direct the employer to pay the woman appropriate compensation for wrongful dismissal, if reinstatement in her former position is not considered possible."

We believe it is both necessary and desirable that this amendment should be accepted. The Minister undertook to have a look at the situation where a female employee applies for equal pay, the court finds her claim valid, she is dismissed from her employment and she has no redress. We feel very strongly about this. There are no safeguards in the Bill to protect such an employee. We believe she should be reinstated. It is discrimination against a female employee to have legislation under which there is no possibility of her being reinstated in her former position if she succeeds in her claim for equal pay. This is a very real difficulty in this Bill.

The aim of the Bill is to encourage women to seek equal pay for work of equal value but, if in the process of seeking equal pay, women who successfully pursue such a claim before the courts are dismissed from their employment there is no means by which they can compel the employer to reinstate them. Surely that is an undesirable situation. Surely it is a situation that should be covered by this Bill. The Minister indicated that he was prepared to write in such protection in some other legislation he intends to introduce. What guarantee is there that such legislation will ever come before this House? It is in this measure the protection must be given.

We made our views clear on this on Committee Stage. We were told that our amendment on Committee Stage could be in conflict with the Constitution. We have modified our amendment to ensure that there will be no such conflict. We took advice on this. Why will the Minister not write in this very vital protection into this measure? It is a basic right to be reinstated if a person is wrongfully dismissed. The equal pay involved might be quite small and a relatively unimportant factor as compared with retention of employment. Because of the fear of losing their employment women may be reluctant to make a claim for equal pay.

I appeal to the Minister to accept our amendment. Even with this amendment I believe women may still be treated shabbily.

On Committee Stage the Minister asked what employee would like to go back into some employment having successfully prosecuted her employer. In rural areas the job is No. 1 because there are not in these areas the same employment opportunities as obtain in more densely populated areas. That is the problem. Therefore, those people entitled to equal pay may be deterred from looking for it because of the fear of losing their employment. That is a grave defect in this Bill. Employers could, of course, co-operate and pay a few fines and the employees would be dismissed without any possibility of reinstatement. The biggest worry for most people is the fear of losing their employment.

I believe this amendment is essential. We have put forward the case that we should give a guarantee to any woman who applies for the salary appropriate to her work vis-á-vis her male counterpart that her position will not be worsened if her application is successful. The Minister said a moment ago that a woman could sue in the ordinary courts. A woman would want to be of pretty strong character to claim equal pay with the possibility that she might be dismissed as a result of her claim. That is why we must insist on this amendment. The danger here should be put on record and I submit it is greater for women employed outside the cities than in the cities. In rural areas there is the problem of job scarcity to be contended with as well as competition with males. In such a situation either the woman would have to accept the pay offered to her by the employer or face dismissal. Her prospects of employment in the locality would be negligible and she would either have to migrate or emigrate.

I have been reading some stuff on this and my impression is that any firm can beat the provisions in this Bill if they set out to do so. They can impose a system under which there will be minimum educational requirements for recruitment, for instance, like the position of junior executive in the Civil Service. Such a situation would result in women being employed only in the most junior clerical jobs, whereas men would occupy the senior and supervisory positions. In this way men would be inclined to entrench themselves more than ever. The position then would be that although we would have established that women are entitled to equal pay for equal work, women will find that equal work is merely at the bottom of the clerical scale.

Therefore, we press the Minister to accept this amendment, to remove the fear many women will have that they will be dismissed if they claim equal pay. With that danger gone, they can claim equality, and a big headache will be removed not only from semi-State employers but from firms in outside employment, because as the situation is it could result in industrial strife—I can see the present provision as an incitement to unofficial strikes.

I must make it clear that at the moment there is no protection against unfair dismissal under the law as it stands. Any employee in Irish industry may be dismissed by his employer and there is nothing the law may do to defend him. His union may have something to say about it but the law as it stands offers him no protection. As I indicated at the start of the debate, I propose shortly to introduce an Unfair Dismissals Bill which will rectify this situation and gives the employee some protection in law against unfair dismissal, whether he is in a union or not.

However, as is almost conceded here in Deputy Dowling's amendment, the situation is not substantially changed. The amendment does not provide for compulsory reinstatement. It merely provides if the employer is willing to take the employee back, then he can do so. There is nothing in this legislation to prevent that. On Committee Stage Deputy Dowling moved an amendment to make provision for a Labour Court order directing reinstatement if a woman's claim for equal pay was judged to be well founded. That has been withdrawn and Deputy Dowling has also withdrawn his insistence on compulsory reinstatement. Presumably he came up against the same difficulty that faces anybody in this matter, that there are certain constitutional matters involved.

The Deputy's latest amendment proposes that the Labour Court should have the power to direct an employer to pay compensation to a woman who is dismissed for having sought equal pay. This is already provided for in section 10 (1) (d). It ensures that a form of compensation be made payable to a woman who has been dismissed by her employer, the amount of which would be related to the arrears of remuneration up to 104 weeks from the time she was dismissed. I would emphasise again that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent an employer from reinstating an employee. The fact is, however, that compulsory reinstatement in our present law situation appears to present certain difficulties.

To answer Deputy Moore's points, particularly in regard to new classifications of employment being introduced, I have announced my intention to introduce legislation concerning the recruitment, training and promotion of women. In the whole area of how we defend the employee in Irish industry from unfair dismissal, how we statutorily give him a right of property in his job, all these matters I intend to look into in drafting this legislation dealing with unfair dismissals. This legislation we are now discussing is simply about equal pay for work of equal value.

We felt the original amendment was much better and we thought the Minister would accept it. The Minister said that his legal advisers had told him it would be unconstitutional to press for compulsory reinstatement. We had the matter examined and this does not seem to arise to the degree indicated by the Minister. At any rate, why not let the employer test it in court? Surely the woman has a basic right to be employed, and in this amendment there is provision for compensation for unlawful dismissal. We know there is provision for compensation in the Bill but the 104 weeks may have elapsed before her case comes up and by then the job she occupied may have been filled or it may have been rendered redundant by modernisation or machinery.

Therefore, we ask the Minister to consider this amendment seriously. A woman must be given protection against dismissal but as the Bill stands a woman will be reluctant to seek equal pay in certain circumstances because it might put her position at risk, there being no provision in the Bill which would indicate that she must be re-employed. The legislation is directed generally against a small number of unscrupulous employers who will avail of every opportunity to misuse these provisions. If the Minister feels he will have power under another Bill, why not embody it in this one and make sure that this Bill will stand on its own merits? Piecemeal legislation is of no value whatsoever to this House. The Bill must be a comprehensive measure able to stand on its own merits. If we introduce legislation which cannot stand on its own merits unless buttressed up by a variety of additional Acts, then we are weak in Parliament. I believe the Bill must have enshrined in it some indication that a woman can apply freely for equal pay without the risk of losing her job or being adequately compensated.

We framed this amendment when we felt that the Minister would resist, on constitutional grounds, the previous type of phraseology. We phrased it in such a way that a woman would be compensated if wrongfully dismissed and if reinstatement in her former position was not considered possible; only if reinstatement is not considered possible must she be compensated. That implies that reinstatement in her former position is the factor about which we are concerned. It is unreasonable to ask us to accept this piece of legislation, to so deprive women of an opportunity of applying for their rights. Many women will feel —if there is no covering clause to ensure continuity of employment— they may well allow the situation pass and no claim will be made for equal pay. The whole basis of the Bill is that women would receive that to which they are justly entitled. In this Bill there is no cover whatsoever and an unfortunate woman making a claim will be at the mercy of her employer. If he is a reasonable employer, probably he will concede the claim. If he is unreasonable, probably he will dismiss her and that will be the end of it. He will pay the compensation to which she is rightly entitled under the Bill — that is, equal pay for the period in question but that is a poor substitute for one's job.

We can foresee many ways in which employers can and will change the situation as they see equal pay claims being implemented. It may well happen, although I hope it will not, that when the application for equal pay is made some employers will say: "It is a new ball game, we require a new agreement for women" and make this agreement so objectionable that the claim itself would not be of any great comfort to the women concerned. As we have seen, on the Continent and elsewhere, every type of gimmick and argument has been used by employers in the drawing up of new agreements when the equal pay claims were made. We want to protect the disorganised workers in the same way as those who are organised. Whatever chance organised workers have of forcing the issue, because of the availability of union backing and the possibility of other militant action, unfortunates who are disorganised— and there are many such people in this country—will be at the mercy of their employers. I was reading only today that a new agreement was drawn up on the Continent which precluded women from carrying out a variety of functions they had prior to the equal pay claim. They wrote all sorts of nonsense into the new agreements, particularly in relation to women's clothing. They could not wear mini skirts, hot pants. They could not have the bra-less look as if these things affected a woman's ability to carry out her job correctly. If we are going to leave it to employers to impose these irritations on women in agreements, apart altogether from reinstatement in their positions, then the Bill will be doing a grave disservice to them and will open the way for employers to treat women as they think fit.

I would ask the Minister to consider this amendment seriously. It is not good enough to say it will be enshrined in future legislation. We do not accept that because from what the Minister told us on the previous occasion it was unconstitutional to insist on reinstatement. I would call it "continuity" of employment rather than reinstatement because that is what it is. There would have to be some safeguard built into the Bill to ensure that those who make a claim will not be discriminated against. If this amendment is not carried, then it will certainly be a Discrimination Pay Bill and will discriminate against women who endeavour to claim their rights under it.

May I put the amendment? Is the amendment withdrawn?

No, it is not withdrawn.

Is it possible for me to point out something to the Deputy?

On Report Stage, Minister, Members are entitled to speak only once except the mover of an amendment who has the right to reply. Nevertheless, if the Minister wants to make a comment, he is quite entitled to.

In the Bill, as drafted, a woman may be reinstated and yet get her damages. In Deputy Dowling's amendment here she may get only one or the other. I would draw Deputy Dowling's attention to the fact that it very much limits the possibilities in the event of redress.

My amendment says:

In page 7, line 33, after "remuneration" to add "and in addition the Court may by order direct the employer to pay the woman appropriate compensation for wrongful dismissal, if reinstatement in her former position is not considered possible.".

This implies that she must be reinstated in her former position.

In any case, it is not compulsory.

Would the Minister not write it into the Bill and let the employer contest it?

The Bill does not rule out the possibility of Deputy Dowling's amendment. As drafted, she may be both reinstated and get her damages or compensation. In Deputy Dowling's amendment, this is not compulsory.

We cannot have further debate at this juncture.

The position is that under the Bill a woman can be dismissed and that is the end of it if an employer so decides. The court may have conceded equal pay for ten, 12 or 15 weeks but she is not reinstated. That is very unfair.

But Deputy Dowling's amendment would not force the employer to reinstate her.

It implies reinstatement.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 49; Níl, 60.

  • Andrews, David.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Leonard, James.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenney, Henry.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmons, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Lalor and Browne; Níl, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 8, lines 23 and 24, to delete all words after "as the" and substitute:

"Certain Terms and Conditions of Employment (Pay) Act, 1974.".

I am convinced now more than ever that this Bill is not an anti-descrimination Bill because it discriminates against women seeking equal pay. The words we seek to have inserted are embodied in the long title of the Bill: "Certain terms and conditions of employment between men and women employed on like work". We have indicated that quite an amount of discrimination appears in the Bill against people who seek assistance under the measure for the purpose of obtaining equal pay. Therefore the term "anti-discrimination" in the title of the Bill is inappropriate. This is probably the worst piece of legislation that has come to this House for some time. It could well discriminate against a breadwinner, because another section of the Bill indicates that men can apply for pay equal with that of women. It means, in effect, that men and women who make a claim under the Bill for equal pay and are dismissed on account of that have no redress whatever. They must lose their employment if the employer likes to keep them out and they will get the small amount of compensation assessed by the court to which they are justly entitled in relation to their claim.

I would ask the Minister to eliminate the term "anti-discrimination" from the title of the Bill, seeing that it is a Bill that contains discrimination against men and women who wish to avail of the equal pay opportunities the Minister had in mind when he first introduced the Bill.

In supporting Deputy Dowling's amendment I wish to say that this Bill will do more harm than good. This Bill establishes the fact that the State is incapable of protecting the basic right of a person who, under the legislation passed by the Oireachtas, claims what she thinks is just under this Bill only to find out that, because she is so naive or gullible as to believe the fine precepts of this Bill, she is now without a job, and the State cannot force the employer to reinstate her.

The Deputy will appreciate that the amendment in the name of Deputy Dowling merely seeks to change the title of the Bill.

I see that, but the title of the Bill is the Anti-discrimination Bill which we know to be a sick joke because there is much discrimination left here. The trouble with the Bill is that it is incomplete. We have not been able to draft legislation here which will fulfil the early promise and guarantee to women that they are not being discriminated against. Therefore we suggest the Minister should withdraw the Bill until legislation of wider scope is ready so that he can bring it all in together.

What the Deputy is saying now would probably be more relevant on the Fifth Stage.

I will not pursue the matter. I want to ask the Minister one question: if in this Bill he cannot guarantee to a woman that she will not lose her job or will be reinstated, how can the Government possibly ask her to believe, when the Bill for the employment of disabled persons is introduced, that the State may not again say, while they want to see disabled persons employed they cannot compel employers to employ disabled persons? The principle is the same. I would ask the Minister to clarify the position and to tell us what powers the State has to compel an employer either to reinstate a person or to employ a person.

We are on the Title. The Bill provides all that is necessary to end discrimination against women in the pay area. Deputies opposite have made the point that it does not provide for compulsory reinstatement. I will answer that by saying that of course under the law at present there is no legal protection against unfair dismissal but I have made it quite clear that this legislation is part of a trilogy of legislation which will provide such rights, I would hope, later this year after enactment. The Title of the Bill is quite adequate for the purposes of the Bill as set out.

We have made our position clear in relation to the discrimination embodied in the Bill and we will probably have an opportunity of expressing further concern on the Fifth Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill, as amended, received for final consideration.
Agreed to take Fifth Stage today.
Top
Share