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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 May 1974

Vol. 273 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £48,619,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the period commencing on the 1st day of April, 1974, and ending on the 31st day of December, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

I would like to begin my speech by referring to the notes in relation to the Estimate which I have had circulated to Deputies. These notes contain a good deal of valuable information and I hope that Deputies will find them useful in their consideration of the Estimate for my Department. As the present Estimate covers a period of nine months only, this year's notes contain a comprehensive statement showing the variations between the 1973-74 Estimate and the Estimate prepared for 1974-75 from which the nine month's figures were derived.

As will be seen from page V of the abridged version of the Estimates volume, a net Estimate of £63,085,000 had been prepared for my Department for the 12 months ending 31st March, 1975, representing an increase of £7,299,000 on the total amount voted for 1973-74, including a Supplementary Estimate. The net amount required for the nine month period is £48,619,000. This amount does not, however, provide for the extra cost of the national pay agreement, 1974, which is operative from 1st June this year. That agreement was not finalised in time to enable its cost, in so far as the public service is concerned, to be distributed over the individual departmental Estimates, and a global provision has been made for it in a separate Estimate for Remuneration (No. 50).

The net Estimate for the nine months' period is slightly more than 75 per cent of the estimated expenditure for 12 months mainly because the two half-yearly moieties of £5.26 million in respect of subhead G— Telephone Capital Repayments—fall to be paid during the transitional period. That subhead which increases each year because of the continuing investment of capital in the telephone service shows an increase of £2 million over the amount provided in 1973-74.

I propose to confine my comments on other subheads to those where the figures for 12 months would show a substantial variation either in the total amount or as a percentage of the 1973-74 provisions.

The amount in subhead A for salaries, wages and allowances is £34,944,000 as against £42,019,000 voted in 1973-74. For 12 months the extra sum needed would be £4.573 million. The increase is mainly because of the provisions made for the cost of the second phase of the 14th round and for additional staff requirements chiefly for the telephone service.

Under subhead C £2,655,000 is being provided as against £3 million in 1973-74. On a 12 month basis the increase would be £870,000. The extra amount is mainly for higher expenditure on new sites and buildings, the cost of additional leased accommodation and higher charges for maintenance, electricity and fuel.

Under subhead F £19.5 million is needed. In a full year this would be £7.623 million more than in 1973-74. The increase here is to cover the extra cost of engineering stores and equipment and contract works arising from expansion of the telephone service.

Subhead J reflects the increased cost of higher pensions and gratuities following increased rates of pay. In a full year the extra provision required would be £436,000.

In subhead K—Commissions and Special Inquiries—only a nominal amount is being provided as the Broadcasting Review Committee have now completed their task. I shall refer again to that report later.

A provision of £2,860,000 is made under subhead L.1 for the ordinary grant to Radio Telefís Éireann in respect of net receipts from television licence fees during the nine months ending December next. The grant for the 12 months ending March next will be £510,000 more than the total amount voted last year, mainly because of the higher television licence fees which were introduced from 1st October, 1973. There is, of course, a corresponding increase in the amount paid into the Exchequer as extra receipts in respect of these fees.

Provision is being made under subhead L.2 for a new grant-in-aid of £50,000 to Radio Telefís Éireann in respect of the net receipts from wired broadcast relay licence fees. The gross receipts from these fees will also be paid into the Exchequer as extra receipts.

No grant is being provided this year for capital expenditure on Radio na Gaeltachta.

The provision under subhead L.3— £119,000—represents the balance of the grant due on installation of the new high-powered radio transmitter.

On the receipts side, a provision of £27,816,010 is made under subhead T for Appropriations in Aid. For a full year there would be an increase of £8.668 million over the amount provided in 1973-74. The increase is mainly attributable to higher expenditure on telephone development. I should, perhaps, explain that expenditure on telephone development is first charged to the ordinary subheads— principally subheads F and A and to a lesser extent subheads C and B— but the cost is subsequently recouped from telephone capital funds and brought in as an Appropriation in Aid.

In regard to the postal service the volume of letter traffic handled in 1973, at 466 million items, was about 5 per cent up on the previous year. Parcels handled totalled about ten million and were at virtually the same level as in 1972. The growth in the volume and value of business transacted at post office counters continued. In general a high quality of postal service was maintained during the year. Following the appeal of the Minister for Transport and Power for economy in petrol consumption during the period of restriction of supplies, postal collection services in Dublin, Dún Laoghaire and Cork were curtailed temporarily but the collections have now been restored.

During 1973 68 new motorised rural delivery services were introduced and there are now about 650 motorised services in operation, covering nearly 45 per cent of the total mileage travelled on rural postal delivery. The petrol crisis caused a temporary suspension of the establishment of new motorised services but the programme has now recommenced.

Because of housing and other developments in urban areas it was necessary to create 101 additional postman posts, mainly in the Dublin Postal District.

1973 was a good year for Irish philately, and revenue from identifiable philatelic sales was of the order of £130,000 or about 20 per cent higher than in the previous year. In 1974 seven special and commemorative stamps are being issued. The issue on 9th October next of a stamp to commemorate the centenary of the Universal Postal Union has a special significance for my Department. International relations in the postal field have always been particularly harmonious and the work of the Universal Postal Union, in which Ireland has taken an active part, has been a model of international co-operation.

The 1974 stamp programme also includes the Europe stamp, a stamp in the Contemporary Irish Art series, stamps to mark anniversaries of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, Oliver Goldsmith and the Irish Rugby Football Union and, finally, the Christmas stamp. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the voluntary efforts of the committee, under the chairmanship of Fr. Donal O'Sullivan, which advises me on stamp design. I had the pleasure in 1973 of appointing the committee for a further three-year term. A special task which I have set the reconstituted committee is consideration of the replacement of the present series of definitive stamps.

There has in recent years been an upsurge of interest in Irish postage stamps and there is every indication that the growth of Irish philately will continue. In 1973 I announced the formation of a new committee to advise on ways of promoting interest in Irish stamps and postal history. I would like to thank the members and, in particular, the chairman, Mr. W.H. Walsh, for accepting my invitation to serve on the new committee. Members of the committee will be visiting some European countries which have more highly developed philatelic services than we have in order to examine the scope and range of the services they provide. I referred last year to a proposal to open a special Philatelic Office in the GPO in Dublin. This project is in hand and I am hopeful that the office will be ready later this year.

Savings services—details regarding new investments, repayments and totals remaining invested for the savings media with which my Department are directly concerned are contained in the notes circulated to Deputies. The notes also give particulars of the growth of Trustee Savings Bank business.

I should like to express my appreciation of the excellent work done by the National Savings Committee in the cultivation of the savings habit, particularly through their promotion of group savings schemes.

In dealing with remittance and agency services it is noted that the number of money orders issued in 1973 was 1.04 million, or about the same as in the previous year but the value was up from £55.2 million to £70.3 million. 12.3 million postal orders to the value of £15.5 million were issued in 1973; these figures represent an increase of about 10 per cent in number and about 7 per cent in value on the 1972 figures.

Agency service payments made by the Post Office, mainly on behalf of the Department of Social Welfare, increased from £105 million in 1972 to £136 million in 1973. Post offices took part as usual in the sales of prize bonds, handling about 28 per cent of the total collected in 1973.

Good progress has been made with the Department's building programme, which includes the provision of many new buildings and extensions for telephone exchanges to cater for telephone development, and new post offices and modernisation schemes needed because of expanding business generally.

A new post office has been completed at Nenagh and a new district sorting office at Phibsboro. Major improvement and extension schemes have been carried out at Blackrock Post Office (County Dublin) and Harmonstown District Sorting Office (Dublin). Work is in progress on new post offices at Dungarvan, Listowel and Phibsboro (Dublin), a new district sorting office at Baldoyle, (County Dublin) and improvements to Castle-bar and Kilmallock post offices. A contract has been placed for the erection of a new post office at Donegal and work will commence shortly. Plans are in hands for the erection of new post offices at Shannon, Longford, Mullingar, Clonmel and Tipperary and for major improvements to the post offices at Ballyhaunis, Boyle, Castlerea, Ceanannus Mór and Cobh.

New telephone exchange buildings or extensions were erected at 24 provincial centres. In Dublin new buildings or extensions have been provided for six exchanges. Work is in progress on 31 new exchange buildings or extensions to existing exchanges and tenders have been invited for 55 more.

Work continues on the acquisition of sites and planning of further buildings throughout the country.

I turn now to the telecommunications side of the Department's operations.

Lists of the principal development works completed in 1973-74 have been included in the notes circulated to Deputies and I propose therefore to mention only the major ones here.

An automatic telephone exchange of 10,000 subscribers' lines was brought into service in Rathmines (Dublin) in replacement of an older installation; 81 automatic exchanges and 104 manual exchanges were extended in capacity; and 27 manual exchanges were converted to automatic working. Two other major exchanges completed late last year — a 10,000 line exchange at Ballsbridge and a 2,000 line automatic exchange at Clonmel—were brought into operation in April.

Mobile automatic exchanges—the first to be used here—were brought into service in three areas where there were special difficulties in the way of early completion of conventional exchanges. A number of other mobile exchanges are due to be delivered later this year and next year.

In all, new and replacement equipment was installed for 26,500 automatic lines as against 22,000 in 1972-73.

Major exchange works in progress at the end of the year included the international telephone exchange due to be opened in mid-June; two new automatic exchanges to be brought into service in the GPO and Tallaght later in the year; another at Santry due early next year; a 20,000-line exchange at Crown Alley, an automatic exchange at Monaghan and conversion schemes from manual to automatic working at Cavan and Fermoy. Exchange extension works are in hand at Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Mullingar, Portlaoise, Tralee and numerous other centres.

Over 2,300 extra trunk circuits were brought into service between the larger centres and some 3,000 local circuits were provided between the larger centres and their dependents. These figures compare with 1,600 and 2,200 in the year before, a total increase of nearly 40 per cent. The schemes completed during the year included new microwave links between Dublin and Belfast, Limerick and Portlaoise, Portlaoise and Waterford and between Cork and Tralee; and coaxial cables between Waterford and Clonmel, Cork and Fermoy and between Tralee and Killarney.

In 1973-74 demand for new exchange lines was some 12 per cent higher than in the previous year. Although 30,000 new lines were connected, 3,000 more than last year, gross waiting applications numbered some 41,000, an increase of 9,000 during the year. Allowing for a normal proportion of applications which are cancelled or not proceeded with, the number of effective orders on hand on 31st March is estimated at 36,000 of which some 4,000 were with the engineers for attention. As in previous years, demand for new lines exceeded the Department's ability to meet it in full. I shall return to this later. Damage caused by the severe flooding and storms in December-January necessitated diversion of construction staff, from the installation of telephones to repair work and later to plant overhaul.

An extensive programme of underground cabling in cities and towns was carried out during the year. Arrears of main and underground cabling in the Dublin and Cork areas are still very heavy and constitute one of the principal obstacles in the way of speedy clearance of waiting applications. The programme is being pressed ahead and expanded to the limits of the skilled staff resources available. Some 205 telephone kiosks were provided. Call traffic during the year is estimated at 450 million, 388 million local and 62 million trunk calls, as compared with a total of some 405 million last year. The numbers of local calls grew by an estimated 10 per cent, internal trunk calls by 14 per cent, calls to Britain by 18 per cent and calls to continental Europe by some 40 per cent. These figures indicate the greatly increased use being made of the system and the scope for a soaring rate of growth if all the necessary facilities were there to meet public demand quickly and fully. We must, therefore, treat telecommunications as a rapidly expanding sector of the economy and plan accordingly.

There are now some 1,300 cross-Channel telephone circuits in operation. Orders have been placed to provide 1,250 more within the next two years. Arrangements are also in train to double again—to more than 5,000 —the capacity of the cross-Channel routes by 1977-78.

Call traffic with the Continent and overseas is rising steeply. The present number of direct circuits to continental and North American centres will be almost doubled to 200 shortly when the new international exchange is opened in Dublin and this initial provision will be steadily expanded. We have 30 circuits to the USA now. It is envisaged that at least 700 circuits will be required within the next 15 years. Apart from getting more satellite circuits via the Goonhilly Earth Station in Cornwall, in which Ireland has an investment share, we have in the course of the past year acquired rights to blocks of circuits in the recently completed Cantat 2 cable laid between Britain and Canada and in a further major transatlantic cable, TAT 6, due to be completed in 1976.

The new international exchange is a special installation with the technical facilities for dealing with long-distance calls without the assistance of an operator in the distant countries concerned. The operators in the new exchange will have facilities for dialling into the automatic networks of a number of European and extra-European countries. Operators in the countries concerned abroad will have similar facilities for dialling into our automatic system. With increased numbers of international circuits and specially trained operators, all of whom have a good working knowledge of French, we look forward to handling call requests for long-distance calls much more promptly.

Starting about the end of the year, subscriber-dialling of long-distance calls will be introduced gradually. Subscribers in certain central city exchanges in Dublin will, in the first instance, be given facilities for dialling to Belgium. The facilities will be extended to other countries and other exchanges as quickly as the technical equipment can be provided.

Telephone capital expenditure during the year was £24 million approximately, of which £7½ million was advanced by the European Investment Bank. Provisional figures of the sub-division of the £24 million under the main heads of expenditure are: subscribers' installations, including local cable distribution, £10 million; exchange equipment £6.7 million; trunk lines and equipment £5.2 million; buildings and miscellaneous £2.1 million.

The value of orders placed for exchanges, trunk systems and so forth, at the end of the year was about £50 million. This equipment will come into service over the next two to three years. The Telephone Capital Estimate for the nine-month financial period to end December is £24 million which is the same as the amount spent in the last full financial year. The provision for the financial year 1974-75 is £33 million. This compares with a corresponding provision of £19 million for 1973-74, an increase of more than 73 per cent.

It will be clear from what I have said and from the material in the notes for Deputies that much is being done to make good the deficiencies of the system. On the other hand, much remains to be done, particularly to eliminate the congestion and other difficulties which affect the Dublin automatic system and the STD network and to expand the Department's capacity to provide telephones within a reasonable time. I share the impatience of many that progress is not more rapid. I should like to promise substantial improvements quickly but I do not propose to do so.

When the Telephone Capital Bill was before this House some months ago, I outlined the magnitude of the work to be done, including the arrears which had grown up over the years, and I pointed out that progress is dependent not only on finance but on the time required to increase the numbers of skilled staff, to provide new buildings, to install new equipment and so on. Arrangements towards these ends have been going ahead with all practicable speed. The introduction of new procedures and better organisation leading to improved efficiency and higher productivity are obviously important. I shall refer to this aspect again elsewhere.

The highest priority is being given to raising the general quality of service even at the cost where necessary of restricting for the time being the intake of new subscribers. Marked improvements have been effected in particular areas as extra equipment and trunk lines have been brought into service. This kind of gradual progress will continue for some time. It will be accelerated as much as possible until general improvement can be achieved.

Special attention is being given to relief of congestion and removal of difficulties in the Dublin automatic system, because they affect not only local calls in Dublin but the large numbers of trunk calls made to Dublin numbers by subscribers elsewhere in the country and abroad. As more replacement and relief equipment at present being installed or on order is brought into service, the numbers of unsuccessful call attempts should fall progressively.

The number of telegrams handled in 1973-74, about 1,155,000, was slightly greater than in the previous year. The telephone and telex services and circuits rented from the Department are being availed of to an increasing extent for the transmission of data. More than 100 terminal systems are being rented by telephone subscribers for the communication of data over telephone lines and demand for the service is growing rapidly. During the year the market study on the future development of data communications in Europe, commissioned by 17 European administrations including my Department, was completed. The consultants estimated that data business handled here would increase 25-fold between the base year, 1972, and 1985.

The telex service continued its rapid growth and the number of subscribers increased by 25 per cent to more than 2,200 at the end of March last. This was 2½ times the figure for early 1970. A major new computer-controlled telex exchange is at present operating under test conditions in Dublin and is expected to be fully in service shortly. Another telex exchange in Dublin is envisaged towards the end of the decade and planning is already under way.

As Deputies are aware, the Department publish commercial accounts which present their position as a trading concern. It is largely on the basis of these accounts that financial policy, including the fixing of charges, has been determined.

In the full version of the Estimates volume, Appendix C to the Estimate will provide a summary of the commercial account results for the four years 1968-69 to 1971-72 and provisional figures for 1972-73. There was an overall deficit of £1,422,000 approximately in 1971-72. The provisional accounts for 1972-73 show an overall deficit of £3,509,000 made up of deficits of £774,000 on the postal service, £393,000 on the telegraph service and £2,342,000 on the telephone service.

The figures I have quoted have been determined after charging interest on the entire net capital investment in the Post Office and after charging depreciation on a replacement basis. Reliable figures for the different services for 1973-74 will not be available for some considerable time, but present indications are that the overall deficit for that year will increase to about £4.5 million.

As I said last year, many uneconomic services are provided by the Department on social grounds, and a case can be made for the payment of a subsidy from the Exchequer in respect of such services but there must be some limit to the extent to which certain Post Office services are subsidised by the taxpayers.

Deputies will remember that in his budget statement of 16th May, 1973, the Minister for Finance announced that certain Post Office charges would be increased, from 1st July, 1973, in the case of postal charges and from 1st October, 1973, in the case of telephone charges. He explained that a deficit of the order of £7½ million would have to be made good from the Exchequer in 1973-74 if corrective measures were not taken. It was estimated that the revised charges would bring in extra revenue of £3½ million in 1973-74 and almost £8 million in 1974-75. Experience since then has indicated that these estimates were reliable. However, in spite of the extra revenue the overall deficit in the current year will be substantially higher than in 1973-74 because costs are being pushed up by inflation all the time. In view of what I said earlier about the extra costs of pay increases arising from the 15th round, Deputies will not be surprised to hear that the deficit is expected to rise still further in future years if charges are not increased again.

I come now to staff matters. I should like first to put on record my thanks to the staff of the Department for the way in which they upheld over the past year the Post Office tradition of service to the public. I wish, in particular, to express my appreciation of the work of those members of the engineering staff who, under very trying weather conditions, restored the telecommunications services disrupted by the heavy storms in January this year.

At this stage too, I want to refer to the recent bomb blasts in Dublin and Monaghan. I regret to say that three members of the staff of the Department were among those who lost their lives in the Dublin blasts, and that the injured also included Post Office personnel. I would like to express to the families and relatives of those who died, and to those who were injured, my personal sympathy and the sympathy of the whole staff of my Department. It is my earnest wish, and I am sure that of all Deputies, that those who were injured will soon recover from the effects of their terrible experience.

One of the bombs damaged the Department's office in Marlboro' Street, Dublin. Monaghan Post Office and Exchange also suffered bomb damage on the same day. I would like to pay a warm tribute to the staffs of the Department and of the Office of Public Works who did excellent work following the damage sustained at both centres. In particular I would like to express my thanks to the telephone staff at Monaghan, who, under the most trying circumstances, maintained an emergency communications service on this sad occasion.

This Estimate provides for 25,287 posts which were in existence on 1st January, 1974, and a provision of £845,000 has also been included for extra posts which will be needed before the end of the year. The number of posts on the authorised establishment increased by 1,561 between 1st April, 1973, and 1st January, 1974. The great majority of these additional posts are required for the telecommunications services.

I have already mentioned that the Estimate does not provide for the extra cost of the 1974 national agreement, that is apart from the provision made for the second phase of the 14th round which is now to be replaced by the first phase of the new agreement, the 15th Round, so far as Post Office staff are concerned. Perhaps I should say a little more about pay increases now. The staff in the various grades, like other employees in the community generally, benefit under the national rounds of pay increases. They also secure other increases in pay or improvements in their conditions of employment where these are necessary to bring them into line with comparable groups of employees inside or outside the Civil Service. The great majority of them are at present covered by the first phase of the 14th round national agreement, which will terminate on 31st May this year. The first phase of that agreement, and other improvements in pay or conditions recently conceded, have added about £3¾ million a year to the Department's wages bill. The first phase of the 15th round will come into operation on 1st June, 1974, in substitution for the second phase of the 14th round which was due to come into operation on that date. It is estimated that the various phased improvements in pay under the 1974 national agreement will ultimately add a further £17 million a year approximately to the wages bill. In the nine months ending December next the extra cost of that agreement including that of the 2nd phase of the 14th round which it supersedes, will be about £3.5 million.

This will increase to about £12.5 million in 1975, to £15.8 million in 1976 and to £17 million in 1977 when the full effect of the 1974 agreement will be felt. Meanwhile that agreement will have ended in June, 1975. It seems fairly certain that further increases in pay will be sought then.

I should, perhaps, add that the very proper efforts in these agreements to improve the relative position of the lower paid, of juveniles and of women have meant that the cost to the Department has been higher than the adult percentage increases, those usually mentioned in public discussions, would indicate. While these improvements are socially desirable, the community will have to accept that Post Office services are going to cost much more.

There is another development which will also put up staff costs. With the emergence of national wage agreements securing general increases for all staff, unions are in a position to concentrate on claims for special increases for more pay or improved conditions supplemental to the increases provided for in the national agreements. Indeed, there are only a few grades in the Department at present on whose behalf claims of such kinds have not been presented or signalled. Included in these are claims for considerable additional compensation for working what are described as unsocial hours, that is working at night or early in the morning or at weekends; and, of course, if existing standards of service are to be maintained, much of the Department's activities have to be carried out at night and at weekends.

The Department have always been conscious of the need to improve efficiency and productivity so as to keep costs as low as possible. Staff wages and related costs form the major part of the Department's expenses and it is in this area that any large economies must be looked for. On the postal side, no major economies can be achieved in the short term without a curtailment of services and the discharge of staff. On the telecommunications side, there is rather greater scope for improving productivity with automation and technical developments generally. Continuous discussions take place with representatives of engineering grades on how efficiency in engineering operations can be improved by increased mechanisation, better organisation of the work, and so on. I am hopeful that more progress will be made in the future that will be beneficial both to the public and to the staff.

The Department at present employ some 240 professional engineers. In former years the Department had difficulty in recruiting their requirements of professional engineers but the position is now reasonably satisfactory. The Department's scholarship schemes which were designed to supplement the intake of graduates are going well. So far 55 scholarships have been awarded and further scholarships will be awarded this year. Twenty-five students who were awarded scholarships have graduated and taken up duty as engineers in the Department.

Staff training is receiving more attention and the Department are investing more in it than ever before. On the engineering side in particular where there are already very considerable training programmes in existence, involving much use of regional technical college facilities, a further substantial and rapid build-up of training facilities is under way to meet the planned expansion of the telephone service over the next few years. As at present, most of the specialised training needed by the staff will have to be provided within the Department but the help of the regional technical colleges will also be availed of to the maximum extent.

Work on the provision of a new engineering training headquarters building in Dublin is due to begin later this year, and the training accommodation provided at Cork and Sligo is being extended. Sites for additional training centres are being sought at Limerick and Sligo and in the midlands. The instructor staff within the Department is also being steadily built up, and the training programmes are under review to ensure that they provide adequately and economically for the needs of the service.

The recruitment and training of the telephonists needed to cater for extra traffic and to fill vacancies is another major and continuing problem each year. Between 1st May, 1973, and 1st May, 1974, the number of telephonists employed, excluding casuals, increased from about 3,800 to 4,500. The extra staff was composed of 450 day operators and 250 night operators. Since September, 1973, some 1,250 telephonists have been recruited and they have already been trained or will have completed their training before the summer traffic pressures build up.

During the year experiments with programmed-learning for the training of telephone operators were begun but it will be some time before it will be possible to form a conclusion on the value of this type of training.

A new departure during the year was that of French language training of some 80 operators and supervisors who will be staffing the new international exchange in Dublin which is to be opened shortly. Now that the Department will have an international exchange for the first time, the Department's staff in the exchange will be expected to have a fluent knowledge of French. Training courses were provided by the Department to bring staff volunteering for service in the new exchange up to the required level of competence.

In addition, the French telecommunications administration very kindly agreed to provide a fortnight's finishing course in the international exchange in Paris for this staff to give them first hand experience of operating in an international exchange through the medium of French. I am confident that this staff will be well up to the accepted international standards. I should like to put on record here my appreciation of the co-operation extended us by the French PTT at all levels concerned and my recognition that many officers in that administration who were in direct touch with the training operators made very considerable personal efforts to ensure that their stay was both useful and pleasant.

The Department's computer was brought into operation in May last year and is currently being used to process savings bank work and certain aspects of telephone accounts billing. Preparatory work on the computerisation of certain other aspects of telephone billing and of telex billing, national instalment savings work, and the calculation of wages of engineering staff, is well advanced, and it is expected that the change-over to the processing of at least some of these by computer will begin this year.

The firm of consultants who were commissioned in 1972 to examine the Department's accounting system have furnished individual reports covering the various sectors of the Department's operations. Departmental consideration of these reports is proceeding and further discussions on them will be held with the consultants before they furnish their final report. They expect to be able to do this within the next few months.

When replying to the debate on last year's Estimate I indicated that I was in favour of the recommendation of the National Prices Commission for the establishment of a Users' Council for the Post Office. As I explained in reply to a Parliamentary Question on 12th July, 1973, the council could not be set up until certain Government Departments and other organisations had been consulted. These consultations have since taken place and the Government recently approved my proposals regarding the composition of the council and the main provisions of its constitution.

The council, whose functions will be advisory, will comprise a chairman and 17 other members. The chairman and three members of the council will be chosen by the Minister. Seven of the remaining members will be appointed by the Minister on the nomination of bodies representative of workers, employers, including farmers, consumers, local authorities and the Gaeltacht. The other seven members will be appointed by the Minister on the nomination of large users. All members, however, will serve in a personal, and not in a representative capacity.

I will be writing shortly to various organisations inviting them to put forward persons for consideration for appointment to the council.

Turning to broadcasting, I will deal first with the developments which took place since the last debate on the Estimate for my Department and then go on to talk about the future.

RTE's Annual Report and Statement of Accounts for 1972-73 was published in December, 1973. There was a surplus of £268,000 in that year. The indications are that there will be a surplus of over £200,000 in 1973-74, also. A bigger surplus might have been expected in 1973-74 because of the introduction of a special colour licence of £15 and an increase in the monochrome licence from £7.50 to £9 with effect from 1st October last. However, RTE in common with other organisations, have had to contend with rapidly rising costs. Towards the end of the financial year they were also faced with a decline in the amount of time purchased by advertisers and this has continued into the current financial year. RTE have stated that even with the most stringent economies, they will be unable to avoid a deficit this year unless the licence fees are increased further. They submitted proposals about this very recently and these will be considered on their merits.

My Department devoted a lot of effort during the year to trying to ensure that all those who have television sets pay the appropriate licence fees. The provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1972, which concern television dealers were a considerable help in this regard.

On the capital side it is estimated that RTE spent a total of a little over £1 million in 1973-74, nearly 50 per cent of which was financed from the Exchequer. A final grant of £23,000 was made in respect of expenditure incurred on Radio na Gaeltachta and a grant of £256,000 was made towards the cost of the high-powered transmitter which is to replace the Athlone transmitter. In addition £169,000 was made available by way of repayable advances for general broadcasting works.

RTE's capital programme for the nine months to end December, 1974, has been settled at £1.144 million. Roughly £289,000 is for capital works on the radio side and £855,000 for the television side, mainly for additional TV production facilities and initial expenditure on the second transmitter network.

Deputies will probably have seen the announcement I made last autumn about the Government's decision to go ahead with provision of a network of transmitters and radio links for a second TV programme. This network will provide the necessary transmission facilities irrespective of what programme service is to be transmitted. The decision to start work on this is an earnest of the Government's intention to provide a choice of programmes as quickly as possible, particularly for viewers in single channel areas who have access to RTE only at present.

I also announced recently that duplicate transmissions on 405 lines from the Dublin and Sligo transmitters will cease within the next two years or so. This will result in a considerable saving in the cost of the second network which would otherwise have to be provided mainly on UHF.

There have been fairly extensive developments in regard to cable television during the year. At my request the Broadcasting Review Committee prepared an interim report about the development of cable television. Most of the recommendations in that report were accepted and have been implemented. The Wireless Telegraphy (Wired Broadcast Relay Licence) Regulations which provide for the control and licensing of cable television systems came into effect on the 1st April, 1974, and the 500 limit on the number of households which may be connected to a mast has been abolished.

Competitions for exclusive licences for provision of cable systems in eight provincial centres in the multi-channel areas are under way and arrangements are well advanced for competitions in a further six centres.

The question of holding competitions in 15 more centres is under consideration. I expect that the results of the first competitions will be announced very soon. In Dublin city the intention is to hold competitions for exclusive licences to serve the areas on the perimeter of the city where large scale housing development is planned. Licences are in course of being issued in accordance with agreements reached in detailed and protracted discussions with all the main cable operators in respect of the rest of the Dublin area. It will, of course, be some time before the companies will be able to meet all the demands for cable television in the city.

The statutory regulations provide for payment by cable operators of a licence fee comprising 15 per cent of the rental revenue. This will be paid over to RTE, less the cost of collection, to compensate to some extent for the loss of advertising revenue which is bound to follow from the more intensive development of cable television. Subhead L.2 of this Estimate provides for a grant of £50,000 in respect of these receipts but amendment of the Broadcasting Authority Act will be necessary before payment can be made to RTE.

I mentioned earlier the introduction of a special colour television licence fee. This stemmed from my decision to remove the restrictions on development of colour television by RTE, as recommended by the Broadcasting Review Committee in an interim report on colour television in July, 1973. About 50 per cent of RTE transmissions are now in colour and RTE hope to be in a position to transmit most of their home produced programmes in colour during 1976 provided the necessary finances are available.

Many Deputies have expressed concern from time to time about the poor quality of reception of RTE television programmes in various parts of the country. I am glad to say that it has been decided to make repayable advances of over £1 million available from the Exchequer to finance a large scale RTE programme for improving reception in those areas where it is less than satisfactory at present. This money will be regarded as over and above normal broadcasting capital needs. However, owing to the heavy programme of capital works RTE are facing over the next few years and the varied demands on scarce capital, it will probably be four to five years before the programme for improving TV reception is completed. RTE should be in a position fairly soon to say when the various districts can expect to have improved reception. I must enter one caveat. Even when this programme is completed there will still be some small pockets throughout the country where, because of, for example, unusual topographical features, and the scattered nature of the households, it would be impracticable for economic reasons to improve reception by providing transmitters or transposers.

During the year, the term of office of Comhairle Radio na Gaeltachta came to an end. I reappointed the members of the old comhairle and added three new members, including a member of the staff who was nominated by his colleagues following an election confined to the staff of Radio na Gaeltachta. I also appointed two other advisory committees under the Broadcasting Authority Act, a Complaints Advisory Committee and a committee to advise on the best use of the Cork studios. Deputies will probably have seen the announcements about these in the daily papers. The appointment of the Complaints Advisory Committee is an interim arrangement pending new broadcasting legislation in which I intend to provide for statutory structures for dealing with complaints about television and radio programmes. I will have more to say about the proposed broadcasting legislation later on.

I am anxious to see experiments in local broadcasting. Radio is a particularly suitable medium for this and Cork where there is an existing studio seems to be the obvious place for experiments of this kind. The Cork Advisory Committee will, I am sure, have much useful advice to offer the RTE Authority on this question.

This might be an appropriate time to mention developments in the field of radio before moving on to the question of the future of our broadcasting services. The Radio na Gaeltachta service was extended to the country as a whole on VHF last Summer. I understand it has achieved considerable popularity with the people of the Gaeltachtaí and is competing very successfully with television there.

It had been expected that the new high powered radio transmitter to replace the Athlone transmitter would be in service before the end of 1974 which would be well ahead of schedule. RTE say that this may not now be possible because of a hitch regarding the mast for the new transmitter which is being put right by the contractor concerned. However, I know that everything possible is being done by RTE to get the new transmitter into service at the earliest practical date.

In introducing my Department's Estimate last year I said that I intended to review the limits on radio transmission hours to see if greater choice could be afforded to the listener without excessive cost to the licence holders and without pre-empting any views the Broadcasting Review Committee might have on the development of the radio service. Deputies will probably be aware of the result of this review. A choice of programmes is now being provided on VHF on a much more extensive scale than in the past.

I intend to review the situation again shortly to see whether it is possible to provide a further substantial increase in radio programme choice, without detriment to other broadcasting priorities, thus reaping the benefit of the considerable capital expenditure on radio facilities in recent years.

The report of the Broadcasting Review Committee, set up in June, 1971, was presented to me at the end of April of this year. I thank the committee both collectively and individually for their work on the report and for the time they voluntarily devoted to it. It will be my duty, in commenting on the report to criticise certain aspects of it. I hope my comments on those aspects of the report will not be taken as reflecting on the distinguished individuals who made up the committee. We are all aware that the report of a committee does not always reflect the sum of the abilities of the individuals who make up the committee. Especially where political judgements are to some extent involved, the judgements of committee members may have a tendency to cancel one another out, so that unanimity is achieved only at the price of a certain incompleteness. It is possible, though I have no means of knowing, that some such factor as this may have been responsible for some regrettable lacunae in the report presented to me.

My predecessor, Deputy Gerard Collins, set up the Broadcasting Review Committee on 17th June, 1971, with the following terms of reference: "To review the progress of the television and sound broadcasting services since the enactment of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, with particular reference to the objectives prescribed in that Act, and to make any recommendations considered appropriate in regard to the further development of the services". Thus the committee was assigned two main tasks: to review the progress of RTE since 1960 and to make appropriate recommendations for its future development.

I shall speak first, therefore, of the report in its aspects as a review of progress from 1960 up to this year. The three years during which the review committee sat were among the most momentous years in the modern history of Ireland. Broadcasting played a significant and controversial part in the events of those years. It both reflected and affected in various ways the often tragic events unrolling in this island. For example almost all the leading figures in the events of these years were from time to time interviewed on television and radio. At the same time broadcasting and broadcasters were criticised from a number of different angles for, as it was suggested, failing in this critical historical situation to rise to the level of the responsibilities placed on them by statute. The last Government came to take the view that these criticisms, or some of them, were justified and used its statutory powers to take certain drastic actions affecting RTE.

It might be thought, therefore, that the review committee had a unique opportunity afforded it in reviewing, in particular, that part of the progress of broadcasting in Ireland which was taking place under its eyes. A critical in-depth review of how broadcasting covered these events, and how these events affected broadcasting, could have been of interest and service to broadcasters themselves, to the authority, to the responsible Minister, to Parliament, to the public generally in this country and also to people in every part of the world concerned with the potential of broadcasting and the use of that potential. Unfortunately the present report does not contain such a review.

At the end of the introductory chapter of the report, section 1.13, the committee indicate the method by which they will discharge their responsibility under the first part of their terms of reference. I quote:

Rather than attempt to review in detail in a separate Chapter the progress of RTE, the Committee decided that this review could appropriately be associated with its comments on particular aspects of the service throughout the Report.

The most critical and sensitive aspect of broadcasting perhaps at any time, and certainly in a disturbed and eventful period, is the handling of news and current affairs. The committee's review of the progress of broadcasting in that area, therefore has to be looked for in chapter 15 of the report "News and Current Affairs". This is a short chapter taking up six of the report's nearly 200 pages. As a review of progress in relation to these aspects of broadcasting over these years it is surprisingly incomplete. It leaves out, for example, all mention of the directive issued by my predecessor under section 31 (1) in October, 1971—a few months after the committee was set up —and of the guidelines drawn up by the authority to give effect to this directive. It also omits all mention of the dismissal by the previous Government of the entire RTE Authority in November, 1972, under section 6 of the Broadcasting Act. The chapter devotes nearly half of its total space to the inquiry into a programme on illegal money lending which it describes as "an event of special importance". The inquiry was no doubt important but one may wonder why it seems to have been considered more important, within the committee's terms of reference, than the dismissal of the entire authority for supposed failure to discharge their responsibilities under the Broadcasting Authority Act.

The committee may, perhaps, have felt that it would not be appropriate for them to comment on the actions of a Government, although their terms of reference did not restrict them in that respect, but they could at least have recorded major actions impinging on broadcasting. At any rate, in a review of progress of broadcasting during the period, the report should surely have faced the very important question of whether the authority had actually discharged their statutory duty in implementing the directive. To do so would have required the exploration of a whole range of sensitive issues of concern to everyone with responsibilities in relation to broadcasting. Such an exploration could have been of great value, but obviously it could not have been undertaken once the decision not to refer to these transactions at all had been taken.

Although this chapter does not refer to the main events in our broadcasting history in recent years it contains comments on the handling of news and current affairs. These comments are severe but vague: an unfortunate combination.

Paragraph 15.9 says:

Though much of the reporting and commentary, particularly in the past two years or so, has been well balanced, the Committee cannot regard RTE's treatment of Northern Ireland affairs throughout the period since 1968 as having conformed to an adequate standard of objectivity and impartiality. It has, on the contrary, exemplified many of the regrettable tendencies noted in paragraph 15.4 above.

Paragraph 15.4 says:

The main questions that appear to arise regarding RTE's performance in the field of news in the past are whether the amount of attention given to news has been excessive or inadequate, whether the material has been properly selected, and whether the presentation has been free from distortion. The tests are proper selection, accuracy, objectivity and impartiality. The obstacles that may hamper the provision of a satisfactory news service are for midable and include external pressures, neglect of background and context, lack of detail, bias, distortion, sensationalism, the crowding out of moderate by extreme opinions and the temptation to select items for television news for the visual excitement, or because film of them is available, rather than because of their real news value. The very vividness of the medium of television, which can provide an increased sense of the actuality of events, enhances the risks of exaggeration and distortion. It is generally accepted that television is prone to suffer from the cramping effect of preference for news items in relation to which it can show illustrative material, unlike radio, which enjoys greater possibilities of immediacy, flexibility and comprehensiveness.

No examples are given, nor is there any indication to show in what direction the committee believed that those responsible deviated from their duty of objectivity and impartiality. RTE have been accused of bias both by people who think they are biased in favour of the IRA and those who hold them to be biased against the republican movement. It would be possible for a committee, including some people who took one of these views and some who took the other, to agree on the general proposition that RTE was biased. Such a general proposition, unaccompanied by examples or indications of the bias is, therefore, worthless.

I have said enough to indicate that I consider the report to be seriously defective in its discharge of the first part of its terms of reference, the review of progress. I shall now pass to the recommendations contained in the report. I shall welcome the expression of the views of the House on the committee's recommendations, which are summarised in chapter 25 of the report. I have also sought the views of the RTE Authority and of a number of other interested bodies. I should say that some of the committee's proposals, which are recapitulated from their interim reports, have already been implemented by me. As I have mentioned, I have implemented almost all the recommendations of the committee in regard to cable television including the abolition of the 500 limit and I have implemented the recommendations about colour television. I thank the committee for these recommendations, the implementation of which is, I think, generally welcomed by the public.

My present views about the implementation of other recommendations of the committee are subject to modifications in the light of comments made in this House and by the RTE Authority and the other bodies I have referred to. However, it may be useful to the House to have at this stage an indication of my present thinking on some of the more important recommendations. Other recommendations will no doubt be referred to in the debate and I shall have occasion to deal with comments on them.

The committee recommends in chapter 3 that there should be a legislative declaration of the purpose of broadcasting which would replace the present section 17 of the Act. I am, as I have made clear before, in sympathy with the idea that wording used in section 17 of the Broadcasting Act needs to be widened, to go beyond "restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture".

The phrase used by the Broadcasting Review Committee "safeguarding, strengthening and enriching the cultural social and economic fabric of the whole of Ireland" seems to me to give a wider perspective which I welcome. However, I am a little concerned at the use of the word "purpose" in this context.

The 1960 Act draws what seems to me to be a healthy distinction between the function of RTE in establishing and maintaining a national television and sound broadcasting service and the duty of RTE to fulfil certain obligations while carrying out that function. The committee themselves recognise that the ideals they indicate may never be fully attainable.

Rather than lay down for RTE a purpose which may never be attainable, it is better, I feel, to spell out in legislation the values which we feel should guide them while carrying out their function to maintain the national radio and television services.

The committee recommend in chapter 4 the replacement of the present RTE Authority by a commission which they say would be an "impartial, authoritative, and effective organ of supervision which would promote creativity and could not fail to have beneficial effects on the standards of broadcasting".

They recommend that this proposed commission should have a full-time chairman and a separate staff, which might strengthen their influence. On the other hand, they seem to envisage that the proposed commission would be completely divorced from the day-to-day business of providing and managing the radio and television services.

It would seem to me that the kind of public trustee control exercised by a commission of this kind would of necessity be less immediate and therefore considerably weaker than that exercised by the present authority which has direct responsibility for maintaining a national broadcasting service.

I do not believe that public trustee control should be weakened and I would hope that most members of the Oireachtas would agree with that view.

The detachment of the commission from direct responsibility for broadcasting would of course make for impartiality and the report says that this would have "avoided the expense and strains of the Moneylending Inquiry". This implies that the committee thought that the authority had too readily, if understandably, "taken the part of the programme makers thus leading to intervention by the Government".

Such detachment might have that advantage. However since it is recommended that this commission should have a third of its members elected by the staff of RTE, outside observers might not expect it to be less ready to take the part of the programme makers than an authority, all of whose members were appointed by the Government.

Also in its chapter 4 on structures, the report recommends that there should be statutory provision for Government directives, that any use of such directives should be public, clear, specific and should be subject to subsequent parliamentary confirmation and review. This approach to the problems raised by section 31 (1) of the 1960 Act seems to me to have much to commend it. Indeed, I have already spoken somewhat in that sense in this House.

The reference to parliamentary confirmation and review offers the opportunity for the Government, the broadcasters, and the people at large to judge whether such a direction reflects merely a party political purpose or whether it embodies a feeling shared by the overwhelming majority of public representatives.

The fact is that the unsatisfactory nature of the present legislation derives not merely from the blanket character of section 31 (1) but also from the draconian powers conferred on the Government by section 6 of the Act— the power to dismiss the authority at any time with no reason given. I have been somewhat surprised to notice that in public discussion of these issues there is a great deal of discussion of section 31 (1) but little or nothing is said about the more drastic and, to my mind, more dangerous section 6.

However, whatever the priorities between them, it is evident that the combination of section 31 (1) and section 6 is capable of abuse. For example if a Minister puts pressure on the authority, with party-political ends in mind, the authority is aware that, if it resists this pressure, it can be removed overnight. This is obviously an undesirable situation. In the new legislation which I shall introduce before the end of this year I plan among other things to remove the present section 6 and to provide that the authority shall hold office for a fixed term and shall not be removeable during that period except upon resolutions passed by both Houses of the Orieachtas on a motion for specifically stated derelictions from the authority's statutory duties. In framing new legislative provisions to replace the existing section 31 (1) I shall take into account the relevant recommendations in chapter 4 of the committee's report:

4.5 (a) Specific statutory requirements laid down by the Oireachtas in the public interest, combined with freedom of operation within these constraints.

4.5 (c) Statutory provision for Government directives; any use of such directives should be public, clear and specific and should be subject to subsequent parliamentary confirmation and review. The views of the operating body on any such directive should be available to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

In general it is my intention that the new legislation, while fully guarding against the danger of the use of broadcasting for subversion of democratic institutions and incitement to violence shall also provide proper safeguards against abuse of statutory powers in relation to broadcasting for party-political purposes. The legislation will in fact emphasise the authority of Parliament as a whole over broadcasting.

On the question of television programme choice, the committee presents in chapter 12 a number of arguments as to why the needs of the single channel area should be met by a second RTE channel, rather than by the rebroadcasting of British services.

In replying to these points, I would like to separate the question of feasibility from that of desirability.

The question of programme rights is a very difficult one, but the negotiations in respect of the possible rebroadcasting of BBC 1 Northern Ireland have been proceeding satisfactorily though slowly.

We acknowledge not only the rights of foreign copyright holders, but also the rights of Irish performers to have their employment safeguarded. The more serious question in these negotiations is the vital issue of control, the right of a Government to decide the structure for the diffusion of television programmes within its own territory. It is the right of a Government to choose the technical means which are suited to its terrain, to the distribution of its population, and to the national aspirations of its people. It is this control which I am very concerned to keep in the hands of our Government.

The question of the implications which open broadcasting might have for RTE advertising revenue are also raised by the Review Committee.

This is a serious matter which will be taken full account of in the final decision as one of the costs of open broadcasting.

On the question of principle, however, that is, concerning desirability, I must take issue with the report. There is a basic contradiction between the committee's recommendation that cable television services should be allowed full freedom to develop, and bring British programmes to Dublin and perhaps 30 other cities and towns and its rejection of the same programmes when broadcast from transmitters.

If any Deputy from Dublin feels that cable television has transformed his constituency to quote the report "in spirit and reality into a provincial region of Britain", let him speak up now and, if his colleagues agree, I have no doubt that a way can be found to take the appropriate corrective action.

In this respect what the report really says is that, while the capacity to view British television might be increased in certain areas, through the expanding use of cable, the introduction of it into other areas would transform the country as a whole into "a provincial region of Britain". I cannot see on what logical grounds that proposition can be defended.

I sometimes feel that what underlies this rather peculiar attitude is not really so much an objection to our people watching British television as an objection to admitting that they watch it. In that case the element in our national culture which is being preserved is the element of pretence. I believe, on the other hand, that our national culture would be made healthier and more real by the reduction of that element.

As I have said before, I would like to see a television service from Northern Ireland available throughout this island and RTE available throughout Northern Ireland. These remain my objectives. Some progress in the first direction has been made, through the removal of restrictions on cable and I hope to record further progress in my next report to you. As regards availability of RTE in Northern Ireland, I have put certain proposals to the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Merlyn Rees. I know the House will appreciate however that it has not been possible to press this matter strongly on the attention of the Secretary of State while he grapples with the many grave and urgent problems which have confronted him since he took office. The Review Committee, while considering that the availability of BBC I Northern Ireland and Ulster Television in the south-west of the Republic would transform the country in spirit and reality into a provincial region of Britain, also seems to take it for granted that two RTE television channels should be received in Northern Ireland.

In this I fear the committee unconsciously reflects a habit of mind very general among us: to wit that the aspiration to unity which we cherish is to be achieved on our terms only. Thus the same people who hold the theory that Divis is as Irish as Kippure, think that nonetheless what is broadcast from one mountain should be seen throughout the island and what is broadcast from the other should not. Irishmen of the two traditions have always had difficulty in talking and listening to one another as equals. The idea that one or the other has to be master of a territory and all the people in it has been at the root of most of our troubles. The concept that it is right for the programmes that reflect our tastes to be broadcast to them, but wrong for the programmes that reflect their tastes to be broadcast to us derives from that mentality. The concept of open broadcasting is an effort to break away from this. Like the rest of our efforts to break away from the trammels of past thinking it is beset with many difficulties, but the effort is, nonetheless, worth making.

Before I conclude I would like to take this opportunity of paying a public word of thanks and appreciation to the RTE Authority and the staff of RTE for the broadcasting services they made available during the past year and for the stimulation and enjoyment they provided for viewers and listeners. It is my intention that RTE shall continue to grow and develop, and I believe that the stimulus of increasing competition will in the long run be seen to be of benefit to it.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a gabháil leis an Aire as ucht na caipéisí seo a chur ar fáil dúinn roimh ré.

I should like to thank the Minister for letting me have copies of the Estimates for his Department, which I found quite useful.

The Minister has given us a wideranging account of the work of his Department and of the views which he has on some aspects of the more controversial sides of radio and television. In dealing with the Estimates one should pay tribute to the administration, officers and staff, and to the technical staff of the Minister's Department. They are dealing with such a wide range of activities that it is difficult for the mind to grasp them all. They deal with telephones and the post. They deal with telex, telegraphs, post office money orders, saving certificates, post office stores and social welfare payments. There is a staff of over 25,000 people and a budget of over £54 million. This indicates their wide-ranging activities.

It is interesting to note that the number of subscribers has increased by 25 per cent over the past 12 months or by over 140 per cent over the past four years. There has been increased traffic in telephones. The introduction of the automatic telephone services has also led to an increase. In regard to the postal services I wish to ask whether the Minister might consider allowing a consultancy group to examine the new sorting office in Sheriff Street. I have a few queries in mind about this office. Are the existing postal routes the best that can be devised? Can more efficient sorting equipment and the introduction of zip codes speed sorting and reduce labour costs? Are there restrictive practices in operation? Such practices would inhibit the introduction of new productivity measures. I have not seen the system in operation in Sheriff Street. I would be interested to see how it functions. In any large concern it is often desirable to get an outside point of view from people with experience in other countries to ascertain whether what we are doing could be improved upon.

I should like to welcome the Minister's references to the new committee which he has appointed to deal with the selection of stamps. Such a committee forms a very useful service. The committee who have operated over the past five years, have given good service and must be commended. I would like to mention a suggestion which I made last year bearing in mind, as I am sure the Minister will agree with me, that our country needs all the friends it can get. The forthcoming commemoration of the founding of America might be an appropriate occasion for the issue of a commemorative stamp. Recently we had the experience of wondering who would be prepared to talk or negotiate about what was going on in Ireland last week. The picture of people like Dr. Kissinger travelling around the world trying to quiten down troublespots is one that attracts the attention of many people.

I also welcome the ongoing proposals which the Minister has referred to for the erection of new post offices and exchanges. Work is in progress on new automatic telephone exchanges in different parts of the country. The Minister was good enough to invite me to attend the opening of the new Ballsbridge Post Office some months ago. I found this an interesting experience.

Everybody, including the Minister, regrets the increases in costs and prices. The only criticism I can offer is that I would attribute some of the inflationary increases to the Minister's own Government. We are all conscious of increasing costs, the increased wages and all the other costs leading to increases in the charges for the services required. The Minister gave interesting data about the increases in the number of calls to Britain over the past 12 months. There has been an increase of 18 per cent in such calls and an increase of 40 per cent in the number of calls to Europe. This is an indication of the influence which membership of the EEC has on us. This is also a good indication that we are coming nearer to Europe.

The Minister referred to the number of circuits to the US and the need for a larger number over the next decade. He also referred to the satellite circuits which are being reserved for us. This indicates that there will not need to be much discussion about open broadcasting. As the satellite system advances nobody will be worrying about what station anyone is looking at in Ireland.

That is some years ahead.

Yes, but it is coming. I am sure most people will be delighted to hear that long distance telephone calls are becoming more prompt; they only wish short distance calls could be equally prompt.

The Minister mentioned—this is something both of us referred to on a previous occasion here — the European Investment Bank loan. This has been of great advantage to the capital development programme.

The deficits to which the Minister referred are not very great in posts and telegraphs but are pretty high in telephones. There is really not much I can say about this telephone deficit because anything I might say might result in an increase in the cost and that would certainly not be popular. We need a telephone service; if we are to be at all efficient we must have such a service.

The Minister referred to the damage done by storms in December and January last. He also referred to the tragic loss of lives in his Department as a result of the recent bombings in Dublin. On behalf of the Opposition, I join with the Minister in extending sympathy to all those involved in this tragedy and I hope the injured will recover speedily.

I welcome once more the Minister's references to the Post Office workers' council. This came up a couple of years ago and the present Minister spoke about it then and welcomed it. I hope the appointment of this council will not be long delayed.

We come now to the more interesting and controversial aspects of the Minister's Department. There is a surplus of £200,000 on television but no surplus on radio broadcasting. As the Minister will agree, this is "buttons"; it means nothing in the context of an organisation the size of RTE and the sort of commitments it has. There is considerable public feeling about the potential cost of television licences. One must, of course, face up to the reality of the situation; if we are to have a proper, fully functioning national television and broadcasting system we must pay for that system. Whether it can be paid for entirely through licences and advertising or whether something in the nature of a subsidy may have to be introduced at some future date by whoever is on the Government side of the House I just do not know. A small country must give priority to both television and radio broadcasting. We are at a considerable disadvantage vis-à-vis our neighbours. There is a much lower television licence fee there but because of the high level of population they can garner 12 times the income for radio and television that we can command here with a higher licence fee and with almost half television and radio costs being paid for by advertising. We are at a very serious disadvantage.

With regard to the collection of licence fees, my recollection is that this was costing something in the order of £200,000 to £240,000 per annum. That was the position when I was a member of the authority. I think that it might be possible to prevail on an organisation like the Electricity Supply Board to collect these licence fees at a very low cost. I merely throw out the suggestion. Payments to Radio Telefís Éireann from the Department are payments less the cost of collecting licence fees, as I understand the position.

The Minister might tell us a little more about this £1 million to which he referred. This will be provided from the Exchequer for the purpose of improving reception. Rural Deputies in particular are very conscious of complaints about the lack of reception in certain areas. I take it this £1 million is for the purpose of improving reception. Will that improvement be over the entire country or will it be confined to certain areas?

Over the entire country.

The Minister says that even in four to five years' time there will still be areas which will not be able to get full reception. A suggestion was made last year about giving grants to local community groups to enable them to erect their own transposers in order to improve reception in their areas. There is no reason why a scheme like this should not work. It works quite successfully in the case of group water schemes. If the authority were to provide these transposers the cost would be very high indeed. An experiment on the lines I have suggested was carried out on one of the Scottish islands last year and has worked very successfully.

The Minister expressed himself as being interested in encouraging the idea of local broadcasting, both radio and television, particularly radio. I agree with him. I was somewhat disappointed, in reading what I regarded as a very informative report from the Broadcasting Review Committee, when I found they did not seem to be interested in local broadcasting. I was puzzled as to why the committee members did not seem to be keen on local broadcasting or a shortwave station. I should like to know from them, or from somebody, whether it was the capital cost or whether their decision was prompted by the advice they were getting.

Dealing with the committee and the authority, the Minister was particularly trenchant about some of the committee members. Having been a member of authorities of that kind in the past number of years, I have never found myself or anybody who served with me thinking in terms of being politically influenced——

I may have left myself open to misunderstanding, When I said "political" I meant that when you are assessing the purport of a particular broadcast for bias, a general category of political judgement is——

I understand——

I did not say they were being influenced by party political considerations.

My experience of working on authorities of this kind is that every political consideration goes out the door when one starts to get down to the problems with which one is faced. The Minister said the review committee's report had not referred to some of the more unusual things that occurred in the last eight to ten years and to the rather drastic actions taken by the last Government — one in relation to section 31 and the other in relation to the removal of the authority. This is a very controversial area in which some of us have been involved one way or the other, but I am sure anybody looking at the events of the past ten days in this country will certainly not be left in any doubt as to the possible consequences of—I must select my words carefully—the possible irresponsibility of allowing on television and radio newscasts people who can inflame society.

I do not disagree. I just object to the Broadcasting Review Committee omitting all consideration of it.

I appreciate that. The Minister was also critical — I will not fight with him over it — of section 6 and he brought up a point which may become controversial in the near future in relation to the power to remove the authority. I think it depends largely on who is in charge. In his concluding words the Minister said Dáil Éireann must be in charge of broadcasting. My feeling about it is that if you have a national company or a fairly large corporation, you have got shareholders and appointed directors — an authority of some kind. Somebody must have the power to tell that authority when to stop, and the only difference between the Minister and myself is about whether it is the Government who should tell the RTE Authority when they are overstepping or whether it is Dáil Éireann. That is the only difference between us. We are agreed that Parliament must be the superior authority.

The committee were quite critical of RTE's news transmission in relation to the North of Ireland in the past number of years. There may be something in this but I think we can be too critical of people who never in their lives have had to deal with a situation of that kind before. It is easy enough for the committee to say — and here I agree with the Minister — that something on a newscast may have inflamed somebody in Belfast. However, to be fair to RTE, I do not believe any radio or TV network in the world has had to go through the trial run of trying to deal with news events in the North of Ireland that our system has had to go through. I have a considerable degree of sympathy with them. While I was a member of that authority, early in the sixties, I quite frequently had the feeling that no matter what you did you could not win — you were bound to do the wrong thing in one area or another. The committee have been fairly hard on the news division.

The Minister expressed a view in relation to the committee's recommendation that a commission be formed and, though I have not discussed this with my party, I find myself in agreement with the Minister. The proposal for the establishment of a commission would give a two-tier situation — a commission controlling cable TV and any broadcasts other than RTE, and having under it a management board consisting of the director general, the deputy directors general, the heads of news and so on. When I first read this I reacted against it. I felt that this sort of commission could lead to a weakening of the structure of RTE itself and that, in practice, it would not be beneficial to us and to the running of RTE.

A few words now about the Report of the Broadcasting Review Committee. It is a most comprehensive document. As the Minister said himself, it does omit a few things but it is a very useful review of broadcasting over the past ten years. It is obvious from the data available to the committee that they did not neglect to study and read everything possible they could lay their hands on. I have not spoken to a member of this committee in the past 12 months. I do not know what are their views on any particular aspect of these things. Now that the commission report has been published I shall be talking to them because I should like to ascertain their personal views on many aspects of what they have to say. I think they have made a contribution: they have given us something to think about, to argue about and to talk about over the coming 12 months in relation to the whole area of broadcasting. I mentioned in the House last year that I found it very difficult to find a fresh definition for, I think it was, section 17, or section 18 — the national culture and so on——

It would not be difficult to get me to change to the sort of thing suggested under the heading of "Purpose of Broadcasting in Ireland" although I know the Minister raises a query in relation to the use of the word "purpose".

I should like to quote a few things which seem to me to be good in these recommendations. On page 125 of the Summary of Recommendations it is suggested:

3.4 In lieu of Section 17 of the Act of 1960 a legislative declaration containing the following points is favoured:—

1. Broadcasting should be concerned with safeguarding, enriching and strengthening the cultural, social and economic fabric of the whole of Ireland.

2. The broadcasting system should provide a service which is essentially Irish in content and character and which in particular encourages and fosters the Irish language.

I must say that goes along with my own feelings in these areas. Under the same Chapter — Chapter 3 subsection (iii) it says:

actively contribute to the flow and exchange of information, entertainment and culture within Ireland, and between Ireland and other countries, especially her partners in the European Economic Community;

Certainly I cannot find fault with the ideas put forward there. Therefore I do not entirely agree with the Minister's statement that the report is seriously defective in its discharge of the first part of its terms of reference — the review of progress. I would say it is only partially defective.

That brings me to the concluding remarks of the Minister, which I find a little provocative in relation to the ideas about open broadcasting. I do not quarrel with the Minister's idea that cable television may not be doing much harm in any area where it is provided. I begin to quarrel with the Minister when he suggests that open broadcasting, providing a complete external channel here, is not any different from cable television.

On the question of open broadcasting, I should like to say this: first of all this idea was originally conceived by a number of people with the aim of trying to help to improve the social and political situation within this island. To my mind there is some considerable difference — and I think the review committee has touched on this — between setting up a sort of single structure in broadcasting for Great Britain and Ireland. I referred earlier to the priority we must give to a national broadcasting system. The national broadcasting system which we have is at a disadvantage of about 12:1 against the tremendous power, influence and money of the British Broadcasting Corporation. In addition, we are a very small country; I think Britain is about 17 times our size. Secondly, Britain is not partitioned; she has not got our problems in that area. Thirdly, I think a true concept of open broadcasting — if it is to be outside Ireland — relates not alone to Britain but to Europe. Here the Broadcasting Review Commission make a similar recommendation. Therefore the first thought in relation to open broadcasting or to exchanging programmes is as between ourselves and Northern Ireland. It does not necessarily follow that Northern Ireland television stations are going to be British permanently. To give them due credit, the kind of transmissions one gets from BBC Northern and ITV Northern Ireland, in the news and current affairs content, are much more distinctively Northern than anything we would get from Britain. This distinction should be recognised by all of us. What concerns people in the Republic is that in the Minister's proposals is the idea — with which he has not proceeded but has at the back of his mind — of handing over the television channel to a foreign broadcasting corporation. I trust the Minister will bear in mind that in this area, which is quite sensitive to national feeling it would be far better to obtain some sort of consensus for the future rather than to have any serious commitment with which the Opposition would not find themselves in agreement.

I expressed the view last year that, as a result of foreign transmissions into Ireland, I could not see ourselves becoming, as the Minister described it, a provincial region of Britain. However, it is on the sense of Irish identity, that is, in all Ireland, that we rest our case; when I say "we" I mean that we as a community must be able to compete with the British Broadcasting Corporation if we are going to import programmes and give them access to every home. Our own television network must be provided with adequate facilities.

This brings us to the question which I am sure the Minister is turning over in his own mind, whether the time has come to subsidise RTE so that it will be able to provide as high a standard of television as the outside corporation. In the interim, realising that a choice of service is desirable, I would urge the Minister to plan ahead with a view to providing, through a new channel, as wide a choice as possible to all regions of the country and of providing, if possible, RTE with an alternative means of programming. The great disadvantage from which RTE suffer is the fact that they are restricted to only one outlet. You cannot hold all your audience on one outlet. You must have diversity. RTE have not been able to do that so far, and this makes RTE's problems extremely difficult.

I agree that the concept of open broadcasting is a break away from past thinking, but there is something from the past which we cannot avoid. Things have happened in Ireland. Perhaps there are some people who would wish they did not happen, but they did, and part of the history of this country is a history of effort to create and sustain a sense of independence. It is in that area that I think our national broadcasting system is essential.

First of all, I would like to join with the Minister in extending our sympathy to the relatives of the members of his staff who were killed in the recent bomb outrage in Dublin and to those who were injured, whether in Dublin or in Monaghan. The Minister readily pays tribute to the work done in Monaghan in keeping the service open as no less than the heroism displayed in the city here in that awful period.

The Estimate gives great scope for criticism, thought and suggestions. One could start griping about the inadequate telephone service. While nobody has ever suggested it was wrong to do that, no purpose would be served by that. We should do whatever we can to hasten more comprehensive planning development of the telephone service in order to meet the tremendous demand by making more installations of what some people might call a presecution apparatus in a house. I suppose it is a mark of the affluent society that people want a telephone in their homes. It may be we do not have the necessary capital to carry out a full expansion programme or that if we have it we have not the staff available at present to carry out this programme. Anyway, all the time the number of telephones is increasing and we are making progress.

I often think that doctors could prove that the telephone service or lack of service is the cause of heart trouble. Very often people get all worked up. They dial a number and get a wrong number even though they have carefully dialled the number they want. Not alone that, but recently in an office in Dublin a person dialled a number and got an incoming call from Blackpool or somewhere else in England. Every day one can take up the telephone and hear somebody else's conversation, which makes one realise that on occasions one's own conversation can be heard by outsiders. It makes a mockery of the suggestion that telephones are tapped in this country; there is no need to tap them.

I hope the Minister will succeed in putting a little more incentive into the drive to instal more telephones. In saying that, I am very much aware of the tremendous task involved. The only way to satisfy the people is to increase the yearly number of installations. We wish the Minister well in this gigantic task.

The Minister could in some smaller ways help to brighten the picture of the Post Office. Each year we refer to the terrible drabness of sub-post offices both in the city and the country. A lot of them have a Victorian air about them. There is a certain solidity perhaps; you go inside and the system works well, if slowly. However I would like the Minister to introduce a scheme whereby small post offices especially would be given a grant to brighten up the premises. A lot of them use dark green paint, which is not the most attractive hue of green. Generally speaking, we could turn the local post office into a kind of local social welfare bureau. The people of Dublin would appreciate, especially during the bus strike, if they could draw their social welfare payments at the local post office and not have to tramp into Victoria Street or Gardiner Street to draw these payments. The local post office in a country town, where it is a sort of social centre, could be developed to fill a much bigger part in the lives of the local people. This would be bringing the administration of central government right down to local level. The Minister could help by urging the holders of sub-post offices to brighten up their premises and by making grants available to them for this purpose.

The Department, generally speaking, do a very fine job when one considers the diverse fields involved — telephones, radio, television and postage stamps. I believe radio programmes are improving. I prefer to listen to a radio report of happenings, say, in the North or a bomb outrage in Dublin than to see it on television. Listening to the radio one does not have to look at gruesome pictures of unfortunate human beings who have suffered in such outrages. RTE radio gives good and competent coverage to most things. This may be a tribute to the journalists or to the technical men. Radio is something of an "in" thing at present. I think the Minister has had a census taken to find out whether the number of people listening to radio is increasing or decreasing. My view is that the number is increasing.

One could not speak on this Estimate without mentioning the television service. RTE have been accused and abused over the years. Of course this will continue to happen because television is such a potent influence for good or evil in a community as small as ours. We must be very careful to ensure that our television service is the best possible one we can give the people. It must not be an anglicising influence. Indeed any kind of outside influence must be put in perspective. We must constantly remind ourselves that this is the station of this nation. While I am not insular in my choice of programmes — I look at outside programmes quite a lot, particularly sports programmes — I say that on the Minister's shoulders and on the Government's shoulders falls a very grave duty to ensure that our station will not be just a replica of some outside station. Of course it is difficult to be a good replica because the stations in the UK have much greater financial resources. They have a more pluralistic community there and they must cater for many different tastes. As Deputy Brugha said Britain is not partitioned. We in this country find that Partition gets its tentacles into every sphere and into the manner of our thinking. I suggest to the Minister that this makes it all the more important that RTE should be the voice of the mass of the people here, that it should reflect their wants and their interests. We should be very careful that, in our efforts to keep up with the cross-channel Joneses, we do not accept the standards of the United Kingdom in entertainment matters.

The Minister asked whether any Dublin Deputy felt that his area had been turned into a kind of provincial region of Britain. I do not say that, but I can give the Minister an example of the influence of cross-channel television. I look at soccer, along with thousands of other people. In my young days people cheered for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians and Shelbourne but now one sees, in the graffiti on the wall, the names Leeds, Manchester and Arsenal. These have become household words. I do not believe there is anything wrong in young fellows having as their heroes great footballers, and I am not saying the Minister can stop this even if he wants to, but it is a concrete example of the influence of outside television on the people here. I am not saying that people should not look at the best football they can see but what they see on BBC or ITV are edited editions of matches played earlier that day in most cases. All the nasty incidents are taken out and the camera is not trained on the flying bottles. When they go to a football match here they see it, warts and all, and the comparison they make then is entirely wrong. This is an example of what I mean. I suggest that it is the Minister's duty to ensure that RTE holds the mirror up to the national scene and that it is a very grave duty. I certainly would oppose a further extension or a kind of second-class RTE channel——

The Deputy's constituents can get it already but he wants other people not to get it.

No, I want to be fair. Why should I object to anybody looking at a soccer match? I look at them myself often. What I am saying is that it is the Minister's duty, not mine, to ensure that the second channel will not be an extension of "In Town Tonight" or something like that.

The advertisements on RTE, for detergents especially are all made in Britain. They are geared to the British market. I am not saying we are becoming a provincial region of Britain but anyone looking at those advertisements might be led to believe that we are. We have much greater depths in our national being to ward off this sort of thing. The Minister has been outspoken in certain ways and, perhaps, has been misrepresented as being, not a liberal, but a Minister who feels that we could be more liberal than we are. He has set out, therefore, to try to educate the mere yokels into accepting a higher degree of liberalism, which is probably the most abused word in the dictionary. If one opposes, one is out down as a Philistine or a bigot. We throw all the word "bigot" at each other all the time and because of that we are not getting real liberalism.

If the Minister has money to spend on a second channel I suggest he should put it into RTE to improve the service. In fairness to those in RTE, they make a great effort to give us good programmes consistently. With few exceptions I find them un-objectionable. Many people in Montrose are as much aware as we are that they have not the finances necessary to make ours a real station. I hope to see the day when we shall have no advertising on RTE. We should sacrifice the revenue from this source and let those who can pay extra taxes, provide it. Each year here I have attacked — without much success — the advertising of drink on RTE, especially the type of advertisement in which the great hurler or foot-baller tosses off a glass of stout or beer in the dressing room after the match. This is subtle in some ways, crude in others, but the point is made that the "in" thing is to drink. One brewery has an old chap who says, when the girl gives him a glass of stout: "There is hope for the young people yet". This was done in English over a long period; now it is being done in Irish. These people realise the power of television advertising. I think this brewery are abusing their time — I know they are paying for it. I hope to see the time when RTE will carry no commercial items but will be a channel of which we may be really proud, uninfluenced by any commercial or industrial sponsors.

Wherever one goes one sees that the breweries are extending their influence by sponsoring sports events but the apex of their efforts appears on RTE with a repetition of advertisements telling us how good the drink is and how one must go to a party, not as we went — to enjoy ourselves — but with a parcel or box of bottled stout. If damage has been done by those advertisements we try to make amends afterwards in the programme when we see a safety film, a film made in Ireland, which shows a mangled body in a crashed car. We know from An Foras Forbartha that the incidence of drink in car accidents is very high and for that reason alone we might well decide to ban these advertisements from the screen. Advertising of cigarettes has stopped and that is proper.

(Dublin Central): They are being smoked as much as ever.

That makes it all the more important that we should not have these advertisements. At least the smoker goes it alone and he can smoke and drive a car without en-dangering anybody but that does not apply in the case of drink. I hope the Minister will find it possible before the end of the year to take these advertisements off the screen and even if it means cutting back on programmes or increasing taxation to offset the loss in revenue, this would be worth doing.

I know those who run RTE must have money and must be watchful that they do not cut off revenue and have to reduce programmes. We must face it; if we cannot afford the programmes without advertising I think we are better off with shorter hours.

As the Minister knows, on the east coast competition from outside stations is pretty strong. East coast residents may be accused of hypocrisy and of saying that while they can enjoy UK stations they do not want that facility extended to the remainder of the country. That is entirely wrong. Many excellent programmes come from cross-channel stations but we want RTE to show such fine programmes that people on the west coast of Britain, and even farther in-land, will want to look at our programmes. We want them to see that we have something to offer in the line of entertainment and education.

RTE screens many good programmes including Telefís Scoile which is very good in many ways and my only criticism is that it is not done on a sufficiently large scale. We should have the open university which would be a great way of imparting educational principles to the mass of the people. We should tend towards that type of station without becoming too pedantic in our programmes. We now have an excellent opportunity to further adult education, especially on television. It should be our motto to make RTE a better station in every way including improving reception. I know the Minister is trying to do this. I live within a mile of Montrose but the reception is terrible. Strangely enough, I can get a cross-channel station much better than the one down the road. The Minister expresses high hopes of overcoming this defect. I wish the Minister well in that regard.

I am sure the Minister realises that there is a very heavy task before him in regard to the telephone and television services. As an example of the potency of the television screen one may recall that when the troubles started in the North and the Civil Rights marchers were batoned by the police and RTE showed a film of a savage assault by a policeman on an unarmed citizen that picture did more to bring home to people outside these islands what was happening in the North than many of the speeches of politicians did. Television can be a medium for good and for showing up what is wrong in our community. It can also be a very powerful weapon of evil, as in the case of the wrong type of advertisements.

I would appeal to the Minister that he should intensify his efforts to improve the telephone service and that he would try to create a television service which would not have to carry commercial advertising. I would suggest also that the beam — if that is the correct term — should be increased in power so that people in Britain who want to listen to our radio service or view our television service could do so.

I hope that before the year is out the Minister will find it possible to ban advertising of alcoholic drink on television. Deputy Fitzpatrick suggested that there are more people smoking now even though tobacco advertising has been banned. I would agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick as to the amount of tobacco being consumed but I would say that there are fewer people smoking but that those who smoke are smoking more. Many young people do not smoke. If we must allow advertising of alcoholic drink on the television for some time to come we can only hope that the Minister will be able when replying to the debate to make a declaration of intent to remove the advertising of alcoholic drink from the RTE screen as from a certain date.

I should like to offer my sympathy to the Minister. Irrespective of what work he does in his Department he will fall in for more criticism than any other Minister in the Cabinet.

We were very nice to him this morning.

You were. I will say that.

I have no doubt that the Minister will hear a great deal in this debate as to where his Department have failed. The Minister is doing a fine job. One-and-a-half years ago the Department were very much neglected. On his coming into office the task set before him was a tremendous one. He has the shoulders to bear the load. The Minister is making tremendous strides in bringing the services for which he is responsible up to the appropriate standard.

Two years ago I spoke on the Estimate for Posts and Telegraphs and described our telephone service as probably the worst in Europe. The Minister since taking office has made tremendous strides in improving the service. While one cannot honestly describe it today as being the best in Europe, we are on the road to achieving that position.

The Deputy must not have been here all morning.

A great volume of the representations which I receive in the south county area are from people who have applied for telephone installation. At least I can now get calls through on Monday and Friday. For a number of years it was practically impossible to get calls through in the morning and afternoon of those days from the Walkinstown-Tallaght-Perrystown area. There has been a notable improvement in this regard but a great deal has yet to be done, particularly in the matter of telephone installations. I have had complaints recently, from persons in the Tallaght area in particular, that their neighbour's houses have been connected while they, whose applications have been in longer, have not yet had a telephone installed. I should like the Minister to look into this matter and to give an assurance that applicants who have been longest on the list will be facilitated first.

There should be more consultation between the Department and the various authorities with regard to services in the new town of Tallaght. I am glad to know that the Minister expects to open the telephone exchange there in the near future. The exchange should have been provided at least two years ago. Six years ago Tallaght was a village of 5,000 population. Today the population is about 25,000 people. It is obvious that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should have been increasing the services in that area. Little effort was made to provide those services but in the past 12 months a tremendous effort has been made. I hope that this will continue and that the pace will be accelerated.

I am not so optimistic about the postal service in Tallaght. If the Minister's plans for the telephone services in that area go ahead without interruption there will be great improvements. Recently I learned of the Department's intention to move from the existing premises in Tallaght to another premises at the head of the town, namely, St. Dominick's Hall. They intend to open an office there shortly and are at present equipping it. This office will give the services which are needed in Tallaght.

I have given figures to show how the population in Tallaght is increasing. Today there is a population of 25,000 people there which is an increase of over 20,000 over the past five or six years. In the next five or six years there could be a doubling of that figure. The population of the new town of Tallaght may be over 50,000 people. I would ask the Minister to examine the Department's arrangements for catering for that population. The new premises at present being equipped will not be large enough to give the required services. If it is not the Minister's intention to open sub-post offices in the outlying areas I would suggest to him that he should look at premises large enough to cope with the services which must be given to a population of that size.

I would suggest to the Minister that he should investigate the position in regard to the Dublin Eastern Health Board's premises at the lower end of Tallaght. The old dispensary was located in these premises. It is a fine building. The dispensary has been taken out of it some years ago. The resident doctor has left. This property may not be needed any longer by the Eastern Health Board. It would serve the needs of Tallaght while the Department await the building of premises in the new shopping centre. I have inquired from the Department, while St. Dominick's Hall is being equipped, whether they can provide temporary premises in order to give service until such time as the new shopping centre in the town is available. It is common knowledge that matters concerning the new shopping centre are now with the courts because of the appeals involved with the compulsory purchase orders. Our experience has been that any matters relating to the courts take a long time to deal with. When the people who have received compulsory purchase orders appeal to the courts years may pass before the local authority can acquire the property. If it takes years to acquire the property more time will be needed before the premises are ready for the new post office.

I believe that the move from the present premises to the slightly larger premises at the head of the town is a short-time measure. The Department will be forced to move to much larger premises. The Minister should consider this situation seriously. There has been a tremendous amount of housebuilding in Tallaght. The services of most Government Departments have been slow to come there. There has been a tremendous improvement over the past 12 months but much remains to be done.

The Minister should consider introducing an afternoon delivery service of mail to the town and particularly to the industrialists there. There was an afternoon service to some parts of the town some time ago but it was discontinued because of pressure. Many people in Tallaght find that the mail they receive on a particular morning should have been delivered to them the previous day. This is possibly because of the congestion in the sorting. I have nothing but admiration for the postmen in the area who deliver mail under extreme difficulties.

There is difficulty in locating addresses because of the local authority's method of permitting developers to name streets as they wish. In some instances we find that streets not too far from each other have similar names. This creates confusion. Many developers of estates in County Dublin have, for their own reasons and in order to sell their houses chosen fancy names for the estates and streets. There is a Wood Park and a Wood Brook in the Tallaght area and similar names are used on houses in the area of Dublin 14. In Tallaght there is Mounttown Road. There is an area known as Mounttown in Dublin postal district 12. In order to help delivery services the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should make representations to the local authority to ensure that this does not happen. I have already made representations in this matter to the local authority. I asked them to set aside a special office to deal with the naming of streets and estates in the county.

Many new motorised delivery services were introduced during 1973. I would appeal to the Minister to give an extra motorised service to Tallaght to deal with the outlying areas of Firhouse and Ballyfolan. These areas are remote from the post office and the sorting office and the postmen delivering mail find the burden of getting around the new estates a very heavy one indeed. Perhaps the Minister would consider giving these men assistance. Let me say at once that none of these men has complained to me but I regularly see them stopping the van outside almost every gate and the driver getting out to walk up a long avenue or in and out of houses delivering mail. To me this is heavy work. I have nothing but the height of praise for the men who do this work. I should mention that in this area there are quite long laneways up to farmhouses. Perhaps the Minister will consider my suggestion of providing these men with assistance.

I thank the Minister for the attention he and his Department are giving to the provision of public kiosks in Tallaght and other developing areas in the south county. It is not an easy thing for the Department to provide this service and find a month later they must go back and replace the kiosks. I do not know what can be done to solve this problem. Last year the Minister spoke of the possibility of investigating some other type of structure and I have noticed that in some areas there has been an improvement in the type of structure; use has been made of whole sheet plastic rather than glass. Even if this material is broken it does not constitute such a danger to children. It is not, of course, very easily broken. I hope the Minister will continue in his efforts to find something more durable, something which will not be so easily destroyed as the present materials used are.

I should like the Department to get in touch with local organisations — there are a number of such organisations in Walkinstown, Templeogue and Tallaght — and discuss with them the siting of telephone kiosks. I believe a great deal depends on siting. It has an important bearing on their survival. I had an interesting experience in regard to a kiosk erected in Tallaght some 12 or 18 months ago. There were no private telephones in the area and this kiosk was the only service available. It was always in proper working order and I believe the reason for that was that there was invariably a queue from early morning until late at night waiting to use the telephone. It was never interfered with by vandals because the queue was always there. I believe that is the only reason it was not interfered with. That is why I suggest the Minister and his Department should consult with local organisations in the siting of these kiosks. These kiosks should of course always be placed in the centre of estates rather than out on main roads.

I would, too, like the Department to co-operate with other essential services, such as the Gas Company, the Electricity Supply Board and the local authority to ensure that when a road is opened all the necessary work will be carried out at the same time. All services should be laid before road works are carried out. There was cause for annoyance recently at Our Lady of Loreto school on St. Dominick's road because the Department of Posts and Telegraphs ripped up the footpath and left it in such a state that cars could no longer pull in to drop children off at the school. Because of that the road was blocked by protesting housewives. I believe they had a grievance. Again, the footpath fronting the Garda station was ripped up and left in such a condition people could not use it. These things would not happen if there were proper consultations and notification to the local authority concerned. No road or footpath should be left in an unusable state for longer than 24 hours.

I should like to say a few words in regard to the radio and television services. I do not have the same objections to advertisements as Deputy Moore expressed. The only objection I have is the volume at which these things are put on the air. Many people have complained to me about it. When you sit down to breakfast you tune the radio to a pitch at which you could listen in comfort. Then the advertisements come on and it would appear as if the radio had suddenly been turned up. It is the same on television — you would think an invisible hand had turned the set up when the advertisements come on. I do not know whether it is possible to remedy this but I think the Minister should look into it.

I repeat that I do not have the same objection to the advertisements as Deputy Moore. Indeed they can be quite entertaining. When it comes to bedtime I have heard children say: "Let us stay for the advertisements". It would be a pity to deprive the general public, and the children in particular, of this enjoyment. I agree that some advertisements can be objectionable but they are very few.

Before advertisements ever reach the screening stage many firms have spent a lot of money on their preparation and I must say they do a very fine job. One such firm has been advertising a certain beverage — not the kind Deputy Moore spoke of — since TV broadcasting began in this country. The advertisement is of great credit to them; it is one which the childern enjoy and I am sure many adults do as well.

I congratulate RTE on their news coverage in the past year. One can find little to fault in their news bulletins except, perhaps, the disproportionate amount of time they devote to coverage of tragedies. I should like to see a greater mixture. I appreciate that tragedy makes news, that it is tragedy which sells newspapers and that television must take the same line, but it is a great pity that we should have bulletins of up to 20 minutes devoted nearly entirely to tragedy. Even if they had to give some more localised items I think RTE should try to devote a little more time to the more pleasant aspects of life.

I wish to refer briefly to the "Outlook" programme. Some time ago I asked that RTE would consider putting on that programme earlier in the evening and I was pleasantly surprised one evening to find it screened earlier. In the meantime however it has been put back to its old time of 11 p.m., sometimes as late as midnight, and I wonder whether it was discovered that fewer people viewed it when it was screened at an earlier hour. Every effort should be made to allow as many people as possible to watch this programme and it is most desirable that children, who would be or should be in bed at the later hour, should see it. I suggest that it should be shown at 7 p.m. or 7.30 p.m. When most people are relaxing for a short time before they go out to enjoy themselves, to attend meetings or business. In saying that "Outlook" be screened earlier I am probably denying myself the opportunity of seeing a Gaeltacht programme which I enjoy very much. However, I am prepared to deny myself that if more and more people will see it, which I feel they will if it is transmitted between 7 p.m. and 8 p.m.

I would appeal to the RTE Authority to give more coverage of the local elections on the 18th June, if at all possible. I do so for one reason and that is that many people are taken up with other happenings in our land and few people realise that the country will be going to the polls in the local elections on the 18th of June. If one is to judge by the response there has been to the Minister for Local Government's effort in trying to get as many people as possible to vote — in permitting the postal vote to people who did not have the opportunity heretofore; the old, infirm, sick, those away from home or who may have changed address — then I think the interest in the local elections is not what it should be. This coverage for which I ask would have to be done immediately because there are only a few weeks left. It is important that every Government Department make every effort to ensure that as many people as possible go to the polls and RTE can play their part in this regard.

Again I sympathise with the Minister in having to listen to complaints from many parts of the country. Indeed I have added my share to these. But, no matter what effort he makes, there is no doubt that we, on both sides of the House, will still find room for complaint for a number of years to come. The main reason for this is the neglect this Department have felt over the years. I feel the present Minister has made tremendous strides and I have no doubt he will continue with these until we have a more satisfactory service all round.

I have listened with great interest to the speakers who have participated in this debate but I do not share the views of many of them. I feel this is possibly one of the most important Government Departments because in some ways it controls the media, and they can, and do at times, present a false and erroneous picture. I criticise the Minister. I feel he himself is being dictated to. If he is not being dictated to, we should like to know who is advising him, who are these faceless agents, because in the last few days we have seen an absolute disregard for the Leader of the largest political party in the country. We saw the absolute disregard for the Leader of our party on another occasion with the Gay Byrne "laugh-in". We have seen the complete disregard for the largest political party in the country in so far as the Government are afraid to face the challenge of members of the Fianna Fáil Party on television.

Does the Deputy think that Gay Byrne should submit his programme for censorship to the Minister beforehand?

Like many other responsible people, I think it was the most irresponsible piece of coverage that ever came across from RTE.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dowling without interruption, please.

I want to condemn it. In some instances I believe the Minister is being wrongly advised. There is this core within RTE, either advising or dictating to the Minister, who eliminated from the programmes party political broadcasts of one kind or another. We are not afraid to confront any Member of the Government on any issue at any time. That is and has been denied us since this Government came into power. They call themselves an open Government but refuse to allow political party broadcasts.

Some of the Deputy's party members refused to go on.

The situation is that party political broadcasts, as such, are not allowed by the present Government. There is no face to face confrontation with Members of the Opposition as there was when Fianna Fáil were in power.

That is not true.

We have now the situation where Ministers are protected when being televised.

We are terrified of you.

Is not it time that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs saw to it that they could stand on their own feet? The set-up is protection — protection for Ministers on RTE. We have a type of interview now of politicians, in some cases by head-hunters and sensationalists within RTE. The older type programmes, such as the "Hurler on the Ditch", with political correspondents who were up to date with the situation, who were not trying to make political capital or trying to hunt for sensationalism, were the best type of political programmes. But now we have people who are endeavouring to head hunt, as they have been on television, endeavouring to sensationalise and to brand Members of the Opposition who have not the opportunity of replying. The Minister himself is responsible to a large extent but also his advisers, the people dictating to him or his faceless agents who are controlling the set-up.

Was not Senator Lenihan on last week? The Deputy is forgetting that.

Each Member of the Opposition now has an opportunity here to confront the Minister. We will do that and we will let him know our views and how we feel in this regard.

I feel that the present authority have no control over RTE and that the director general has lost control of RTE when we see some of the programmes transmitted. Only two days ago——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy may not refer to persons outside who can be identified in this way.

The Minister has a responsibility here. If the Minister, with his advisers and agents around him, is responsible for this, I want to condemn it. If not the Minister will have an opportunity of answering fully and factually as to why the situation has developed to its present position. As I have already pointed out, only two days ago the Leader of the largest political party in the country was denied an opportunity given to other politicians who are now on the political scrap-heap. Their voice was more important than that of the largest Opposition party in the country. I condemn these tactics of phasing out not alone the Leader of the party but other members also by not giving us the opportunity to which we are entitled and, that is, direct confrontation with the Minister. It is time they stood on their own feet and the props were taken from beneath them. It is well known to the public that some of these people are unable to stand on their own feet. We hope the day is not far distant when the Minister will feel free to return to the open situation we had before. What we have now is closed Government, closed television, for the Minister and his colleagues.

As I said before, when there is a programme on television in which public representatives are invited to participate you will find you are up against these sensationalists or head hunters. I experienced that once in the Star Chamber in Montrose when there was a packed jury there to confront another public representative, Deputy John O'Connell, and myself. Researchers had gone out into the area concerned and got people whose views were opposed to ours, whose views were opposed to those of the parish priest at that time in Ballyfermot. These people were presented on the programme in order to bolster up the indiscretions that had been committed by some of these people in a programme on a particular area, which downgraded the area and caused embarrassment to the responsible residents in that area. The Minister is well aware of the area and I shall not mention it again. It would appear that, when that did happen, the efforts that were made by the faceless agents in Montrose were a direct attack on members of this party and an insult to the public, who want to hear the two sides of the story. One side of the story is not enough.

It would seem that RTE are now controlled by the Government Information Services. They get the information across there, and the type of propaganda that is pumped out can only come from the Government Information Services. I would hope that any Minister with any balance and any sense of justice would see that justice is done to the largest political party in this House. Every Deputy should have the same opportunity on television as members of the Government. I believe the political broadcasts that are best suited to this country are programmes like that presented by the political correspondents, "The Hurler on the Ditch", and some other such programmes like that we have seen from time to time. They conveyed a point of view which was not politically biased as is the case with some of the programmes that are presented at the moment. There may be one or two programmes which could be termed impartial, but generally the Opposition have no opportunity of participating in television programmes.

That is the serious side. On the other side, we have the court jester, Gay Byrne, ridiculing the leader of a nation, President Nixon. What right has he to make a laugh of the president of another nation, apart altogether from endeavouring to make a laugh of the Minister for Defence and the Leader of the largest political party in the country? What action did the Minister take or what action was taken against Gay Byrne?

What apologies were made? No apologies. He would not apologise. This is a very serious matter and one upon which the Minister must make his views known in public to show that the Byrne attitude is not that of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or, as some people put it, the Conor Cruise-O'Brien attitude, which I do not believe, but the Minister would want to make that clear. There are people who believe that Gay Byrne's views on that occasion were the Minister's views and that this set-up was one that had the support of some element in RTE, a large element in RTE. This is something we should not stand for any longer. We demand justice and we ask the Minister to give us the basic justice that was given to the Government when they were in Opposition.

There are some excellent people in RTE who participate in programmes and give an impartial view. However, there is this cliqué, these faceless agents, who endeavour to colour the programmes to the satisfaction of the Government supporters, and to the satisfaction, possibly, of the members of the Government. The Minister must hold himself responsible to some degree, because the party political broadcasts did not terminate yesterday; they terminated some time ago. As I said before the Minister came in, I feel that, apart from the authority having no control or the Director General having no control, somebody is advising the Minister, somebody is dictating to the Minister, because otherwise we could not have the prolonged presentation of the type of trash we have had over the last year or so in relation to the Opposition party.

To pass from that subject, I had a complaint recently from an Old IRA man who was presented with a colour television set by his colleagues. When this man, who is an old age pensioner, went to the post office to get his free television licence, as he thought, he found to his amazement he had to pay a substantial sum for it. Over the last couple of months we had a great deal of advertising in the newspapers by the Department, at considerable cost to the State, telling people that free television licences were available to the aged. It is like some of the other advertisements which appear on television giving a false slant to the situation, and to which we object. I would like the Minister to examine this situation. This man was told he could get a licence for a black and white set. Apparently if the person is old, he is not supposed to have a colour television set. Even if a member of a man's family gives him a present of a colour television set or if he is presented with it, as this man was, by his colleagues, he cannot look at it. Perhaps the man would not have the price of the television licence; then he is breaking the law. We are to have complete colour television in a few years. Does this mean that all the people who have colour sets will then have to make a contribution? It is unreasonable to ask a man on an old age pension to pay something in the region of £6 towards the licence. It would seem to me that the people who brought in this type of regulation are colour blind. They do not see the reality of the situation. They do not understand the problems of an old age pensioner. They do not understand the generosity of groups or of members of a family. The number of colour televisions sold is in the region of 45,000 and the number of licences is only 24,000. The brainwashing procedure in the last couple of months was not a factual assessment of the situation. It would be better for the Department to ensure that the people who should pay their licences pay them and to lay off the old age pensioners. I hope the Minister will give us an indication that he will relieve old age pensioners of this burden.

A group of constituents last night asked me to convey to either the Minister for Local Government or the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs an idea they had in relation to fire safety. The Department of Local Government have done an excellent job in this respect on television. The tragedy in Dalkey, when a whole family was wiped out, showed that many of the people in the area were unaware of the action that could or should be taken. This group felt that a programme or two on television to show people what to do in an emergency might mean a saving of life. It seems there were quite a number of people on the scene in Dalkey but they were unable to deal with the situation. Would it be possible to produce a programme in relation to fire safety that would show people how to react? I am not blaming the Minister or anybody else for the Dalkey tragedy. With the bomb blasts in recent times and the incendiary devices that have been picked up from time to time it is necessary to equip the people so that they would know how to react and what to do. Motorists could be educated not to park in front of hydrants and so on.

There are false values being put forward in relation to many products being advertised on television. No authority should stand over this. Deputy O'Malley the other day mentioned a particular beverage which is freely advertised on television. It is supposed not alone to buck up the sick child but to buck up the mother, the grandmother, the grandfather and the whole family. We are told that the product itself is absolutely worthless. I would ask the Minister to see that advertisements are realistic and fair. We have one Minister telling us that the true value of each product must be shown while on television we have this sort of presentation. We hear of beverages that are supposed to be a remedy for everything from bald heads to bunions. I do not know so much about the advertisement which says "My girdle is killing me" or the 7-hour bra, but I am sure there are people in the House who could give us a run-down as to their realism. Some of these products at least may not measure up to the advertisements. There are the advertisements which show the fellow drinking the big glass of Double D or Harp. He is a great fellow. He is one of the boys or she is one of the girls. You are "with it" if you are drinking this. Many parents are very sorry that this type of advertisement is permitted. If they must advertise let them advertise on a realistic basis and not project the individuals who drink as the big guys in society. I know that advertising is necessary for the continuity of the service, to ensure that there is a continuity of employment and that Irish artists can be employed but we should not allow false advertisements.

Deputy O'Malley also referred to the advertisement featuring the girl who is using a weight reducing compound. She lies back on a sofa smiling and eating this product while another girl is almost strangling herself on the floor doing exercises. At the end of the month the girl on the sofa has lost 7 lbs while the girl on the floor has lost only 7½ lbs. We are told again that there is absolutely no truth in this claim. I would ask the Minister to examine the claims that are made in various advertisements. Let them present their products in a responsible way and at their true value. In regard to alcoholic beverages the "big fellow" idea must be dispensed with. It has implanted the idea in the minds of impressionable people that you must bring your girlfriend, your mother-in-law and your father-in-law in and give them a pint of this or a pint of that and, if you do not, then you are not "with it". I believe realistic advertising would be more effective because the public have become aware of the gimmickry, they know the values of some of the products advertised, they know that they are false values and they do not fall for this any more. It would be in the interest of the advertisers themselves to have serious advertising.

It is reckoned that we have in the region of 45 million people of Irish descent abroad. Those people are being deprived of factual information in relation to the home country. This can only be done through the establishment of a shortwave station. Many years ago, just prior to the first Coalition, the Fianna Fáil Government were about to establish a shortwave station to break through the paper wall and ensure that people were not fed BBC propaganda. The equipment was secured and the station built but eventually the equipment was sold to the Turks who can now, no doubt, communicate with their people abroad while people of Irish descent abroad must rely on the BBC or some other service for information. The type of information provided by the BBC in regard to Ireland is very slanted — a little worse than RTE at times. That is the best that can be said for RTE, particularly in regard to political matters.

It is necessary that at the earliest moment we should be able to communicate with the Irish abroad so that they can have a true and comprehensive picture of developments at home. This can only be done by a shortwave station and serious consideration must now be given to providing such a service. It would ensure increased tourism because it would not have the slanted approach of a foreign broadcasting company. We could speak to the Irish abroad in their own language and terms and let them know the exact situation here. Even the Minister must agree that propaganda pumped out by the BBC does not suit Irish men and women abroad. Although living only a few miles away these people must rely on the BBC. Many of them cannot get information from home otherwise. Slanted television programmes have caused concern to many Irish people whom they were designed to brainwash. They distort the situation and seek to colour the viewpoint of those seeking information.

These people, many of whom were forced out of this country through lack of employment — that was no fault of the Minister — due to the undeveloped nature of the country and the oppression we suffered, have a right to such a service. They wish to return home and often want to see what is developing here but are unable to do so. We owe these people a debt and I hope the Minister can repay them by the establishment of a shortwave station so that we can communicate realistically with them.

As regards the second channel, it must be an RTE channel. We must ensure that the BBC are not allowed to take over and, on a second channel, project the kind of propaganda which I have mentioned.

Would the Deputy like to keep the BBC out of his own constituency? If he would, I might be able to help.

I do not care what other people look at but if the Minister is indicating that the second channel should be a BBC channel — if we have a second channel — that would not be in the best interests of the nation. Immediately the BBC would affect the advertising revenue which is desirable and necessary to ensure the continuity of employment of Irish artists. Their number would be reduced if the BBC were allowed to take over our responsibilities — and we have a responsibility to ensure that the people have an alternative station. We see from this report and others that in most countries there is a second television channel but to do it cheaply or be pressurised into any situation or to lead this country into a situation in which we would accept the BBC as an alternative to a second channel would be doing a grave disservice to our people, to trade unionists who would lose their jobs and employment opportunities. It is very important that Irish artists and technicians would have an opportunity to work in their own country. We should give them that opportunity rather than bring in the BBC to project British propaganda all the time.

Evidently it is very popular, even as propaganda.

I do not know if the Minister looks at it. I have very little time to watch any television programme and those I see I am utterly disgusted with sometimes.

We could cut out cable transmission in the Deputy's constituency and make it easier to keep it out.

I do not mind. The only channel I can get at the moment is RTE. I am in a new area. There is no communal aerial. I am operating on rabbit's ears. I am confined to one channel and I have no telephone, so I cannot communicate with the outside world. I will deal with the telephone situation when I have dealt with the position in regard to the second channel.

We would be doing a grave disservice if we decided to bring in the BBC to take over our affairs. It would affect advertising revenue. It would disrupt and disemploy Irish artists and would impede the Irish trade unionists, workers, technicians, producers and others from obtaining employment in their own country. The onus is on us to ensure that we do establish a second channel and it must be an RTE channel so as to provide Irish programmes suitable to our needs and tastes, together with selected material from abroad of an educational or factual nature, rather than the distorted type of programmes that we sometimes see and hear.

There are many programmes on RTE that are excellent programmes such as "Garda Patrol", "Outlook", "Encounter" and "The Riordans". We do not have to go outside the country for programmes like that. We are able to produce them here. They are acknowledged as excellent programmes outside the country. They are down to earth programmes and are factual in nature. The production of such programmes should be encouraged. We produce many programmes of a very high standard. The sports section of RTE are to be congratulated on the wonderful coverage of sporting and other fixtures. RTE do a good job in covering ard-fheiseanna and Labour Party and other conferences. There is a high degree of efficiency. We should avail of that and ensure that it is maintained and we should not sell out to the people across the water.

I hope we will have more programmes such as those I have mentioned and further development of programmes on matters affecting the day to day life of the people. That is a prime consideration. We should have such programmes rather than the "Cannon" type programme or others that we see from time to time on RTE. There should be fewer canned programmes and more home produced programmes. Many Irish artists who have had to emigrate would be only too willing to return home to participate in television programmes. I should like to pay tribute to the artists and producers and others who have been responsible for programmes in one way or another.

Another matter that is worth mentioning is the radio service which is improving daily. There are very good radio programmes. "Today in the Dáil" gives fair coverage of the proceedings in the Dáil and I should like to compliment the commentators, Arthur Noonan and others, who give an unbiased and realistic coverage and maintain a fair balance between parties and Independents. If the same approach were made to television programmes we would be getting somewhere. There is the early morning news — a very good programme. Then there is the laugh-in type of approach of Gay Byrne which, on television at least, has done great disservice to television. There are many people who switch off the set when the "Late, Late Show" appears.

Then there is the question of telephone kiosks. The vandalism throughout the country is appalling. I sympathise with the Minister and the Department in their efforts to ensure continuity of service where the service is needed and desirable. It is important that people should have this contact with the outside world, that they should be in a position to contact a doctor or relatives or hospitals or the police. We know the terrifying tactics of some of the gangs who roam around areas from time to time. Contact with the police is an essential part of life. There was the destruction some days ago in Talbot Street. The telephone can be put out of action by that type of thing, by incendiary devices and bombs or by vandalism.

As I have mentioned, I am unable to get in contact with the outside world. The Minister indicated in reply to a question that it would probably be two months before the telephone could be installed. I am at a great disadvantage. I would like to put it on record that most of my constituents do not believe what they are told when they ring up my old number. They are told that I do not live there any more. They see my name in the directory. I have no phone. I am unable to get in touch with my constituents. The party Whip is unable to get in touch with me. I am unable to get in touch with the party from home. I have to proceed in and out of the city to find out if there are messages, if people have called, if there is anything in the post. For a Deputy this is a very serious matter.

It was very irresponsible of the Deputy to move into a house that had no telephone when there are all these calls for his attention.

I took it that we had a very energetic and responsible Minister, that the moment one would apply the telephone would be installed. It did not happen that way. I overestimated the Minister. I am sure the Minister is doing his best. I just want to say to my constituents that it is not my fault that the Minister would not give me a phone. I would not say that he deliberately held me up. Perhaps somewhere along the line there is one of these gremlins that I was speaking of earlier who is not pressing the button. I would ask the Minister to expedite the matter so that I can get in touch with him if I am in difficulties and I can get in touch with my constituents.

I should like with others to compliment the staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on the wonderful work they did in repairing storm damage and bomb damage in the city and the efficiency with which they dealt with sometimes dangerous situations. I hope that the Minister in due course will introduce into the Department a system of industrial democracy whereby the workers within the Department can become decision-makers to some degree. I did see in the Press at one time that there was concern in RTE about people who wanted to participate in decision making and it appeared from the Press report that the Minister did not give them his blessing. I hope that workers in RTE and elsewhere will have the opportunity to participate in decision-making. We talk about industrial democracy and the introduction of industrial democracy being part of the policy of parties here. Nevertheless, when there was the opportunity to introduce it I am saddened to think that it was not introduced on a large scale throughout the Civil Service. The workers have not the opportunity of sharing in decision-making.

With regard to party political broadcasts, I would ask the Minister to have a serious look at this matter. He should not be pushed or dictated to by his colleagues; I should imagine this is done by colleagues who cannot stand on their own feet, people who have been propped up both inside and outside the House. The Minister should give the Opposition a chance of discussing in a realistic way the problems that the people must face.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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