Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Nov 1974

Vol. 276 No. 4

Vote 49: Health.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the period commencing on the 1st day of April, 1974, and ending on the 31st day of December, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chláraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Health Boards and miscellaneous grants, and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

The Estimates which were approved by the House this morning cover the period April to December 1974. The Vote requirement for the nine-month period totals £101,378,000, made up of an original Estimate of £96,746,000 and a Supplementary Estimate of £4,632,000.

In addition, the Minister for Finance will shortly be seeking a Special Vote for Remuneration, which will include a provision for £4,349,000 to meet pay increases under our national pay agreements, for personnel employed in the health services.

The total Department of Health voted requirements for the period April to December 1974 therefore, including the Special Vote for Remuneration, amounts to £105,727,000.

In order to compare my Department's Vote for 1974 with the voted moneys for the year 1973-74, it is, of course, necessary to translate the nine-month figure for this year into a notional 12-months' amount. The Vote requirements for 1974 on a notional 12-months' basis amount to £141,000,000. This figure represents an increase of £40.5 million over 1973-74 or an increase of some 40 per cent in the Health Vote between this year and last. This is a very significant increase indeed and demonstrates once again this Government's commitment to improving our health services as quickly as our resources allow.

It will be useful to Deputies, I think, if I break this 12-month increase of £40.5 million down into its basic elements. In this way it will be possible to isolate the real improvements, exclusive of inflation, which have taken place in our health services during the past nine months.

Of the £40.5 million, £20 million will be devoted to pay and price increases, a further indication of the impact of inflation on health expenditure. The additional cost in a full year of the substantial increases in rates of allowances provided for in the 1973-74 budget, including the new constant care allowance, and the increases in rates of allowances provided for in this year's budget is estimated at £2.5 million. A further £9 million is attributable to relief of rates, arising from the Government's decision to transfer all health charges to the Exchequer. The remainder, £9 million, is related to expenditure on real improvements in the range and standard of services provided for in the Health Vote.

I should like to emphasise this last figure. On a national 12-month basis, some £9 million was spent this year on real improvements to our health services after account is taken of inflation, rates relief and increased allowances. This represents a real increase of approximately 7 per cent in voted expenditure over 1973-74, a remarkable achievement by any standards.

In March last, I told the House that there had been an 8 per cent real improvement in expenditure on our health services in 1973-74. I can now tell the House that we have achieved the almost same real rate of increase this year with a figure of 7 per cent.

The £9 million which this Government spent this year on improving our health services in real terms was well spent and was widely spread across our health services. The figures can be broken down as follows:

£4.5 million will be spent on improving our general and psychiatric hospitals, including the provision of new units and improving both services and staffing within them.

£1.5 million will be spent on the provision of extra places in homes for the mentally handicapped and the aged.

£1.3 million represents increased real expenditure on our general medical services.

£1.7 million is being spent on improving community care services, especially the home help, child health and social work services.

This then has been the scale of this Government's achievement in the health field in the current year. On a 12-month basis, we have increased voted expenditure by some 40 per cent over the figure for last year and have managed, in a period of serious inflation, to increase voted expenditure on real improvements by £9 million or by approximately 7 per cent in real terms.

As I have said, total voted expenditure on our health services will amount to £105,727,000 for the period April to December, 1974. This figure does not tell the whole story however. Total public expenditure for the nine-month period is estimated at £125,047,000.

The difference of £19,320,000 between the two figures is made up as follows: contributions from rates, £13,200,000; health contributions, £4,200,000; payments under EEC regulations, £1,300,000; other sources (including miscellaneous grants from the Hospitals Trust Fund), £620,000.

On a notional 12-month period, total public expenditure on our health services would amount to approximately £166,000,000 in the current year. This compares with a figure for 1972-73, the year before this Government took office, of £105 million. In the two years since the Government took office, therefore, total public health expenditure has risen by approximately 58 per cent.

In the same period public expenditure on our health services has risen in real terms by a remarkable 15 per cent at a time when real gross national product has risen by 7 per cent at constant prices. This transfer of resources towards our health services has not happened accidently. It has happened because the Government believe that the development of our health and social services is a priority. Concrete expression of that belief has been demonstrated clearly in our last two budgets and must be now well beyond dispute.

The Supplementary Estimate passed by the House is for an amount of £4,632,000. The need for this Estimate has arisen from the following factors:

A net sum of £2,532,000 is required to meet the extra costs which have arisen during the year due to price increases.

A sum of £800,000 is required to provide for increases in the rates of various allowances announced in this year's budget.

A sum of £200,000 is required to pay for arbitration awards made to clerical officers employed by health boards.

Increases in the rates of social welfare contributions and in superannuation allowances are estimated to cost £600,000.

In addition, there is need to provide for a deficiency of £500,000 in Appropriation-in-Aid estimates. The short-fall is due mainly to a reduction in anticipated revenue resulting from my decision to defer the extension of limited eligibility services to the entire population.

I think the House will agree that increases in expenditure to improve services during this year have been exceptional. I have outlined the increases and the rate of increases in some detail.

What is important, however, is the use to which additional expenditure is put. I think I can best demonstrate the progress being made in this regard by discussing the policies I am pursuing under the main programme headings I have instituted in my Department.

Expenditure on our general hospitals for 1974, on a 12-month basis, amounts to £73 million. This figure represents 44 per cent of total expenditure on our health services and constitutes by far the largest single element in terms of cost in our national health programme.

General hospital care is costly both in terms of capital and current expenditure. My objective, as Minister for Health, must be to set about the long-term reduction in the percentage of total expenditure devoted to hospital services. This does not, of course, imply a reduction in hospital standards. Rather I would hope to see the opposite, an overall improvement in hospital services.

My objective is to develop a national network of efficient, first-class general hospitals, backed up by a highly developed community-based, health and welfare system. As the latter develops, it should be possible to reduce the percentage of the population requiring hospital care because of the existence and operation of an efficient primary medical care system in our communities.

This approach makes sound economic sense. It also makes sound medical and social policy sense. If we can improve our preventive health services, we will have contributed more to the general health standards of the community, than we could ever do by continuing to rely excessively on hospital services. We must create a proper balance between the two. This implies in the long run a reduction of the proportion of health expenditure devoted to hospital services and an increased proportion devoted to community care or primary health services.

During the current year I have concentrated, within our general hospital programme, on continuing to improve our existing services, while at the same time, continuing my work on the development of a general hospital plan for the future.

As far as on-going improvements are concerned, it would, I think, be useful if I list some of the main developments which have taken place under this heading in the current year.

In Cork, work is continuing on the new 600-bed regional hospital which is scheduled for completion in 1978. In addition, a new operating theatre is being provided at the Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital and a 26-bed gynaecology unit is being provided at Erinville Hospital. At St. Finbarr's Hospital, an extension to the X-ray Department has been completed and work is in progress on further improvements there.

In Dublin, a new 40-bed unit was completed at Peamount to replace St. Bridget's Pavilion. Accommodation for eight additional patients was provided at the National Medical Rehabilitation Centre and work commenced on an extension to the canteen and a new aid-to-daily-living unit at the same hospital.

Extensions to the child guidance clinic and the pathology laboratory commenced at the Mater Hospital and adaptations to provide a cardio-vascular unit are also in progress there. At Jervis Street Hospital, work has commenced on a detoxification unit as an addition to its existing facilities for the treatment of drug abusers. Improvements to the accident department at that hospital are also in hand.

A major scheme of improvements, including neuro-surgical facilities, X-ray and out-patient accommodation is nearing completion at St. Laurence's Hospital. At Linden Convalescent Home work is proceeding on the replacement of the old main block and the provision of improved dining and kitchen facilities. Additional out-patient facilities and staff dining accommodation are being provided at the Meath Hospital. Finally, in Dublin, work is in progress on a major scheme at St. James's Hospital, comprising a central X-ray Department, a child guidance clinic and the up-grading of the mechanical and electrical services there.

In Carlow, a new maternity hospital has been completed. At Ardkeen Hospital, Waterford, a new paediatric unit has been completed and work is in progress on a new ophthalmic unit. In Tullamore, an extension to the X-ray Department at the county hospital has been completed.

At Castlebar County Hospital, a new pathology laboratory has been completed and work is in progress on a new casualty department and stores. A new pathology laboratory has also been completed at Tralee County Hospital, while at Galway Regional Hospital work is in progress on an intensive care unit and an extension to the X-ray department. In Wexford, work is continuing on a new maternity unit and on a geriatric unit.

These are some of the main on-going developments which are taking place within the context of our existing general hospital services. A full and complete list has been circulated to Deputies in the statistical document which I arranged to have circulated. Before I leave this section of my statement, I would like to comment briefly on some developments which are taking place in the provision of suitable accommodation for the aged.

A new 100-bed unit for the chronic sick has been completed at St. Ita's Hospital, Newcastlewest, and a 30-bed geriatric unit has been completed at Baltinglass District Hospital. Major improvement schemes are in progress at St. Vincent's Hospital, Athy and at St. Colman's Hospital, Rathdrum. In addition, the number of homes for the aged now available for aged social cases has risen to 16, with the completion of homes at Donnybrook, Bray, Manorhamilton, Claremorris, Westport, Nenagh, Roscrea, Newcastlewest, Dungarvan, Waterford and Birr. Work is already in progress on further homes at various centres, including Ballymun, Clonskea, Drogheda, Mohill, Galway city, Fermoy, Youghal and Belmullet.

The overall picture, therefore, is one of significant improvements to our existing hospital services and institutional services for the aged. I am deeply aware, however, that as far as our general hospital system is concerned, more than on-going improvements are required in the longrun. If the structure of our acute hospital system were basically sound, then all that would be required of me would be to identify and meet needs which would arise from time to time in the normal way.

It has been recognised for many years, however, that a restructuring of our hospital system is required if a high quality hospital service is to be provided for the future. It is recognised that a hospital system which met the needs of the past will not necessarily meet the needs of the future, because of the changing pattern of medicine and hospital care.

I have been considering for some time now the kind of general hospital system which this country requires in the future. My objective is to find a solution which combines the provision of high-quality hospital care with reasonable accessibility for the people for whom the hospital system is designed.

This is an extremely difficult task. If one looks at the problem from the point of view of sound medical planning, the tendency would be to concentrate hospital resources in a limited number of large centres. This was the general approach of the Fitzgerald Committee in its report in 1968. The objection to this kind of approach is that it underemphasises the importance of easy access to a hospital for a patient who needs urgent care and for his relations who must visit him. This approach also underemphasises the socio-economic importance of a general hospital in many parts of the country.

On the other hand, it is obviously impractical to suggest that each town in the country should have a general hospital. This would solve the accessibility problem, but it would create inconceivable economic demands on our resources, while at the same time, preventing the provision of high quality care in the hospitals provided.

A middle-ground solution must, therefore, be found. I am not prepared to rush my decisions in this matter. I have said before that I have a grave responsibility to weigh up competing advice carefully and without imprudent haste. Decisions taken today about our future hospital system cannot be reversed later without enormous wastage of resources, so that careful consideration of all the issues involved is an obligation on me and on the Government. Having said that, I believe that significant progress has been made towards reaching decisions on this question in the 20 months since this Government took office.

When I spoke last March on the 1973-74 Estimate for my Department, I outlined in detail the wide-ranging consultations which I had initiated throughout the country on this question. I have consulted the health administrative bodies, and, in some cases, individual hospital authorities. They have responded to a guideline document prepared by Comhairle na nOspidéal at my request and have offered me their views. For some parts of the country, the views I received about future hospital development were unanimous. For other areas, there is disagreement on a strategy between the bodies consulted.

As far as the Dublin area is concerned there was unanimity on the basic structure recommended by An Chomhairle. This provides for six major general hospitals in Dublin, including two new ones at Beaumont and in the Newlands Cross area. Because of the degree of unanimity and because of the urgency of providing a new general hospital structure in Dublin, the Government announced a decision for this area in October last.

The decision announced by the Government provides for the locations of major general hospitals in Dublin for the future. The plan will involve a very considerable capital investment in new buildings to replace many of the old hospital buildings which have served the city for, in some cases, hundreds of years. I am pressing ahead with the planning process for these hospitals as quickly as possible. We have, therefore, found a solution for the Dublin area and this constitutes a considerable achievement within a period of 20 months. As far as the rest of the country is concerned, I am still engaged in the consultation process which I have described. I am anxious to hear the views of as many interests as possible before reaching final decisions. The termination of development programmes for Cork and Limerick cities poses special problems. Here we are faced with rationalisation problems within city areas, problems similar, if on a smaller scale, to those solved in Dublin. My approach to finding solutions for these areas is similar to that which proved successful in Dublin. With my agreement, Comhairle na nOspidéal set up a special sub-committee for each of these cities to examine the situation and make recommendations as to the most suitable strategy for hospital development.

I have sent copies of the report of the Comhairle on Cork to the different interested parties and have asked them for their views on it. The committee on Limerick did not agree on a report, but I have the result of their consideration. I will seek the views of local interests on this also. When these consultation processes have been completed, I will ask the cabinet sub-committee on hospital development to consider suitable proposals for these areas.

As far as the remainder of the country is concerned, I am at present meeting representatives of those areas which are in dispute as far as hospital services are concerned. Having already consulted the health administrative bodies, it is right that I should now consult with those who disagree with majority recommendations for their areas.

Meeting minority areas groups in this manner may seem unusual, but it must be remembered that the decisions which the Government will take on this matter are of the first order of magnitude. As I said before, I feel it my duty to consult as widely as possible, so that every available piece of advice is given to the Government when they come to make their decisions.

I intend to continue these consultations in the weeks ahead. This Government will take the necessary decisions where previous Governments failed. But we will not be rushed or forced into quick decisions without weighing carefully all the arguments put forward. We owe that much to those who will work and be patients in our hospitals for many years to come.

The community care programme, as I have defined it, encompasses two broad areas of policy, services in each case being provided in the community as opposed to within an institutional setting.

The first area provides for primary medical and para-medical services, that is, services provided by general practitioners, public health nurses, dentists, ophthalmologists and so on. The second broad group of services coming within the community care programme can be described in general terms as personal social services and community welfare services. These would include services provided by social workers, home helps, meals-on-wheels organisers, and staff in day-care nurseries.

The total cost of the community care programme this year, on a notional 12-months' basis, is approximately £36 million or 21.7 per cent of total public expenditure on our health services. The proportion of total expenditure under this heading should rise in future years as greater emphasis is placed on the provision of community health and welfare services. This is certainly my intention at this time.

I would like to comment first on those services of a primary medical or para-medical nature which health boards provide within their community care programmes.

The general medical services scheme constitutes by far the largest single cost element in the programme nationally. The cost of this scheme is now in the region of £13 million annually. Some 1,143 doctors and 1,210 pharmacists participate in the scheme, which provides a free service to about 34 per cent of the population.

As Deputies will recall, the general medical scheme, which replaced the old dispensary medical services, came into operation in the area of the Eastern Health Board on 1st April, 1972, and came into operation in the rest of the country on 1st October, 1972. Provision was made, in the negotiations prior to the introduction of the scheme, for its operation to be reviewed and, in particular for the scale of fees which had been provisionally agreed on, to be reviewed one year after the full implementation of the scheme and not later than two years after its initial introduction, i.e., between 1st October, 1973, and 1st April, 1974. It was agreed that, during the course of the review, the medical organisations and the Department would have at their disposal returns prepared by the central pricing bureau indicating the patterns of visiting and patterns and details of payments during the first full year of operation of the scheme.

The detailed information regarding the first full year of the operation of the scheme, including information on the payments made to doctors and pharmacists, the total expenditure on drugs and medicines, the visiting and prescribing rates which had emerged during the first year of the scheme's operation and other data was made available to the medical organisations prior to the inception of the review. It was agreed, at the request of the medical organisations, that the review should not be confined solely to an examination of the fees and fee schedule, but should be a wide-ranging review of the operation of the scheme.

The review of the scheme began at the end of March and has been continued at regular meetings which have taken place since that date. The medical organisations put forward about 25 items which they wished to have discussed and my Department, for their part, suggested nine items which they felt should be discussed during the review of the scheme. Of the items put forward, those which ultimately emerged as the most difficult and time consuming were the question of the appropriate level of fees under the scheme and the right of entry of general practitioners to the revised scheme.

Between mid-May and mid-July discussion took place, and written submissions were made by the medical organisations seeking a substantial increase in the fees which had been fixed at the inception of the scheme. The medical organisations sought an increase in the basis fee for a surgery service from 80p to £2, an increase of 150 per cent, with similar increases in the other fees which operate in the service. This claim was examined, and discussed in detail, and I concluded that it was not one which I could entertain nor one in relation to which I could make an offer of increased fees. I told the medical organisations this on 6th August and, in accordance with the procedure which had been agreed on prior to the introduction of the scheme, the medical organisations referred the matter to arbitration on 9th September.

The report of the arbitrator has been received within the past few days and he has recommended that the basic surgery fee of 80p should be increased to 90p, an increase of 12½ per cent and that other fees should be increased by a higher percentage than the increase in the basic fee, the highest recommended increase being 34 per cent. The arbitrator's recommendation has been transmitted to the medical organisations and I am currently awaiting their reaction to it.

So far as I am concerned, I welcome the fact that we have now before us, for the first time, an independent assessment of the appropriate level of fees under the scheme. The cost for a full year of the award is about £734,000 and in 1975, the total commitment, including arrears, would be of the order of £1,600,000, assuming the arrears to October, 1973, were payable in that year.

The other item to which much time has been devoted during the course of the negotiations was the question of the right of entry of general medical practitioners to the service. When the scheme was introduced provision was made for the entry to it of former dispensary doctors and of those doctors who were in practice prior to a specified date. After the scheme began, entry to it was on the basis of competition for vacancies which arose, in different areas, from time to time.

The medical organisations represented most strongly that all practitioners, who had certain minimum qualifications and experience, should have the right to provide services under the scheme for medical card holders. It was, and continues to be, my view that entry to the scheme should, to the greatest extent possible, be on the basis of open competition.

Within recent weeks there has been continuing discussion on proposals which I put forward to end the impasse which had been arrived at, and on other proposals to this end which had been put forward by the Irish Medical Association. I have now sent to the medical organisations proposals which would allow doctors in practice for two years prior to 1st October, 1974, to enter the service without competition. These proposals would also facilitate the creation of partnerships and group practices and would, exceptionally, admit in the future to the service doctors who had been established for seven years in private practice.

I hope this will result in the resolution of this very difficult question in a manner which will be acceptable to me and to the medical profession. At a recent meeting agreement was reached on action which could be taken in relation to a number of proposals made by the medical organisations and this is now in train. There are a considerable number of items yet to be discussed and I hope that these discussions can be brought to a speedy conclusion. Certainly, I am anxious to do all that is possible to ensure that such matters as are outstanding in relation to the general medical service are resolved effectively and speedily.

I recently announced that I intend to extend the list of long-term illnesses for which drugs, medicines and appliances will be available free of charge to persons irrespective of income. I intend to add Parkinsonism, acute leukemia, muscular dystrophies and multiple sclerosis to the existing list and the extended list will become operative no later than 1st April next. The estimated cost of extending the list is £200,000 in a full year.

Apart from those which I am adding to the existing list, I am aware that there are other long-term illnesses which can impose serious financial strains on individuals and their families. Unfortunately, it was not possible to include them all, but I will certainly keep the list under review in the future.

I would remind the House, however, that the drug recoupment scheme is available to all persons in the limited eligibility group. Under this scheme, an individual would not have to spend more than £4 on drugs or medicines in respect of any particular month.

Revised child health services were introduced towards the end of 1970 following on the report of the Study Group on the Child Health Services.

The study group had recommended in particular that provision should be made for: scheduled medical examinations of all children at the ages of six, 12 and 24 months; comprehensive medical examinations of all national school children between sixth and seventh birthdays, that is, after the lapse of a suitable length of time from the child's commencement at school; selective medical examinations of national school children at about nine years of age and that each school should be visited by a medical officer at least once a year.

In the period which has elapsed since the introduction of the revised services, the available medical resources have been concentrated on the provision of the six months examination and the comprehensive medical examination for new entrants to national schools. Shortage of staff, and concentration on these two priority examinations have meant that the introduction of the 12 and 24 months developmental examinations and of the selective examinations of schoolchildren have proceeded much more slowly.

In the period from 1st January, 1971, to 31st December, 1973, 70 per cent of eligible children in urban areas were given the six months examination. This rate of response is, on the whole, very satisfactory and staffs of health boards have tried to ensure that it is maintained at as high a level as possible.

The merits of the six months examination are twofold. Defects are discovered at an early age, and appropriate action or surveillance can be undertaken. If no defects are discovered there is the benefit to parents, which cannot be measured, of the assurance which can be given to them that their child is developing in a normal way.

The comprehensive medical examination of the new entrant to school is a much more time consuming exercise than the old routine medical examination. In 1971, 1972 and 1973 over 40 per cent of national schools were visited and in each of these years over 130,000 children were medically examined. The limited medical resources available, and the concentration on the two examinations I have just mentioned, have meant that we have not yet attained our limited objective of visiting at least all the bigger schools—those with over 200 pupils—annually.

A departmental examination is now being made of the recommendations made by the study group in the light of the experience gained since the revised child health services were introduced. It has emerged that the age of six months for the first examination may have been set too low and seven or eight months of age may be more suitable. A number of medical officers are now undertaking the initial examination at this age.

It is now clear also that additional resources of medical personnel would be necessary if the scheduled examination service were to be made available for all children. Among the other matters being examined, therefore, are the utility of the 12 months and 24 months' examinations in the ascertainment of defects and the appropriate extent of the involvement of the public health nurse in the further screening of children of national school age.

For a number of years past there has been a continuous increase in the number of wholetime dental surgeons employed in the public dental service, the operation of which depends mainly on these full-time officers. During the past year this increase has been maintained and the total number of dental officers now employed by health boards has risen to 167, about a 50 per cent increase over the number employed five years ago. The removal of the marriage bar on women in the Public Service, has resulted in an increase in the number of married women dentists who have been successful in the competitions held by the Local Appointments Commissioners for permanent appointments to that service.

During the year under review most health boards made special provision for the improvement of their existing dental clinics or for replacement of dental equipment where this was necessary. This should lead to a better quality of service being provided in the clinics for the children who form the majority of those currently receiving treatment under the service. The policy of expanding the wholetime dental staffs of health boards and of improving facilities at clinics will be continued as resources permit.

Prevention of dental decay is preferable to treatment and there is a growing realisation that much can be done to prevent or lessen the onset of dental disease by giving more attention to oral hygiene. The Department have available for issue to interested bodies and persons a leaflet and series of posters illustrating in simple fashion the techniques for personal care of teeth. The leaflet and posters and also the two short films on dental health recently shown on RTE television were made for the Department in consultation with the health education committee of the Irish Dental Association. Much credit is due to the committee for their excellent promotional work in the field of dental health education. In the current year the Department are matching up to a limit of £15,000 in value, in services or in finance, the amounts which the committee raise from voluntary sources for their dental health campaign.

I know that there are shortcomings in the dental services at present available to eligible persons. While we have been effecting gradual improvements in the services, we have not been in a position to devote to them the very big sums which would be required to make them fully satisfactory. The extent to which further improvements can be made, as resources permit, is under review and in this review we will be consulting with the Irish Dental Association, which has put forward views on the appropriate methods of developing the services.

As far as the personal social services and community welfare elements of our community care programme are concerned, I can inform the House that considerable developments have taken place in the current year. In dealing with last year's Estimate I referred briefly to the difficulties which health boards were having in attracting social workers with post-graduate training to their employment. We have attempted to overcome this problem by organising a sponsorship scheme for post-graduate social work students.

In the academic year beginning in October, 1973, 12 post-graduate students were sponsored by health boards, while in the current year this figure has been increased to 33. In addition, the National Social Service Council has this year sponsored five students.

In a further attempt to increase the number of trained social workers employed by health boards, I have suggested that they should employ trainee social workers with basic qualifications, in anticipation of sponsorship for professional training in 1975. Ten such trainees have been employed this year.

Apart from professional training, 16 social workers were released for refresher courses in universities this year. More such courses are planned for future years. Overall, I am confident that these and other arrangements will lead to a significant improvement in our social work services in a relatively short time.

The home help service, instituted in 1972 with a budget of £150,000, has developed rapidly since the Government took office. This scheme enables health boards to provide domiciliary services for families in stress situations and for the aged, especially those living alone. The primary objective of the scheme is to assist and encourage persons who can remain in their own homes to do so rather than seek institutional care.

I have expanded this scheme as quickly as possible since I became Minister for Health. In the financial year to March last, the latest period for which figures are available, expenditure amounted to £344,000. Of this amount, £203,000 was spent directly by health boards, while £141,000 was granted in subsidies to voluntary agencies involved in the service. In the same year, 56 whole-time, and some 3,000 part-time home helps, were employed by health boards and voluntary agencies, in addition to 23 home help organisers. Some 3,000 old people benefited from the scheme, together with 452 other individuals and 303 families.

It is my intention to help this vital service to expand still further in the future. I will, in particular, encourage the employment of more home help organisers and the provision of further training courses for home helps generally. I cannot attempt to list all the improvements which have taken place under the community care programme in the current year. I would however like to mention two further decisions taken by the Government which have great significance for the future.

The first is the decision, announced in October, to provide Government support for the establishment of a national network of community information centres. This decision was taken in response to the obvious difficulties which individuals in our society face in discovering their entitlements to services and benefits provided by the State.

While it is obviously necessary for each government department to inform people of their entitlements as clearly and accurately as possible, it is also true that specific provision should be made at community level to ensure the widest possible dissemination of information. This task can best be performed, in my opinion, by local representative groups, backed-up and supported by a national agency. The job of the national agency will be to encourage the setting up of information centres, to set standards for registration and to provide information, training and financial support to the local staffs.

I am very pleased indeed that the National Social Service Council has agreed to perform this task. The council will work through its own staffs, with the advice and guidance of a committee representative of Government Departments, of key voluntary and community interests and of nominated members of the council itself.

As well as the functions I have mentioned, the council will be given reserve power to establish information centres directly in areas where it is felt desirable to do so, but where local initiative is not forthcoming. Financial support for the establishment of the centres will be provided through the council from the Health Vote.

In October last also, the Government decided that I, as Minister for Health, should have the main responsibility for children's services in the future. My immediate task now is to prepare a new Children's Bill, to prepare proposals for improving the range of services available to deprived children and children at risk, and to suggest the administrative changes which are desirable to give effect to these proposals.

To assist me in this task, I have appointed a full-time task force of experts in the field of children's services. The task force has commenced its work and I hope to have its recommendations within a matter of months.

The Government's decision to concentrate responsibility in one Minister has been widely acclaimed. It will help to overcome the present fragmented nature of their children's services and enable integrated planning to take place. I believe it will inaugurate a new era for our deprived children, although I recognise clearly that we have still a long way to go before a modern and humane children's service is created. A sound beginning has now been made.

I have, up to now, been dealing with a range of individual services within our community care programme. I could have mentioned others in my comments. What is really important however is not only the individual services but how these complement each other in practice.

The community care programme, as I envisage it for the future, is more than simply the sum of individual services. It must be an integrated programme capable of seeing to the total health and welfare needs of individuals and families in their communities.

This implies that there must be close integration of service provision and close co-operation between the personnel engaged in the delivery of services. My objective in this regard is to create a team approach at community level. Each community care area should have its own multi-disciplinary team capable of responding over the range of health and welfare needs which exist in all communities.

During the current year a good deal of progress has been made towards this objective. Community care teams have begun to operate on an ad hoc basis in a number of areas and reports from these areas are encouraging. I hope that the new system will come into operation formally next year. It is envisaged that the director of each community care team will be a medical doctor and that the team itself will comprise doctors, public health nurses, dentists, social workers, home helps and home assistance officers, among others.

Discussions have taken place with interested groups about how voluntary organisations can fit into this scheme and I am greatly encouraged by the outcome of these discussions. I intend to circulate a discussion document on the role and organisation of community care in the near future with particular reference to the role of voluntary organisations.

If we can get the community team idea off the ground next year we will have taken the initial and major step towards creating a modern primary health and welfare system in this country. No matter how good individual services are, they can be no substitute for a comprehensive, integrated service which can respond to the total needs of a community in an organised way.

The third major programme area for which I am responsible is concerned with the provision of services for the mentally ill, the mentally handicapped and the physically disabled. This programme will cost approximately £46 million in the current year or 27.7 per cent of total expenditure.

I believe that it is widely recognised that services for these groups in our society have not developed as rapidly as they might down the years. They came off second best far too often when it came to deciding policy in the health field with the result that services for these people have fallen behind when compared to other health services.

During this decade we must attempt to put this relative neglect right. The mentally ill and the mentally or physically handicapped have as much right to top class services as the rest of the community.

When I looked at this problem first, shortly after taking up office, I decided that immediate priority should be given to improving training and employment opportunities for the handicapped. I set up a working party of experts to help me prepare a policy in this area and they have now reported to me.

In an interim report, which the working party sent me last June, they made recommendations on the training of trainers and supervisors who deal with the handicapped. I immediately accepted their recommendations and arranged with AnCO to start an initial course for trainers already engaged in work with the handicapped. This course commenced on Monday last, 25th November, and will be of four weeks' duration. It will be followed by further courses.

The provision of skilled trainers is only one aspect of a comprehensive policy towards training the handicapped. I am now considering the other recommendations of the working party, which cover a much broader field.

My general objective is to devise a streamlined system of training opportunities with employment in the open market or in special employment facilities as the end result for as many as possible of our handicapped people. Achieving this objective will take time and it will be costly. Nevertheless I am convinced that the long-run benefits to the economy and to the individuals themselves will far outweigh any costs involved.

In trying to achieve our objective I look forward to continuing assistance from the EEC's Social Fund. In the current year training centres in this country will benefit by some £400,000 from that source. This money is welcome since it will ease the cost burden on the national Exchequer. I hope that as we in this country improve our training facilities for the handicapped EEC aid will increase commensurably.

I decided to concentrate initially on the question of training and employment opportunities since this area of policy offered the best scope for rapid development. It also has the great social benefit of helping to make as many as possible of our handicapped people self-reliant and no longer dependent on welfare benefits. The provision of a welfare allowance is no answer to the needs of a handicapped person who is capable of working. What that person needs is training and employment opportunities if he is to achieve his full potential.

Having almost completed policy development in this field I am at present preparing a White Paper on services for the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped over a wider policy range. The White Paper will outline proposals to deal with some of the major defects in our present system.

It will deal with such questions as the proper relationship or balance between institutional and community care, the failure to adequately stream patients suffering from mental illness or mental handicap so that each patient is provided with the kind of treatment and care appropriate to his particular illness or handicap, the improvement of the child psychiatric services, and the administration of services for the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped.

In general terms I believe that as far as the mentally ill are concerned we need to provide a greater emphasis in expenditure on non-institutional treatment and, more especially, on preventive activity. I have begun a review within my Department to see how these objectives can be achieved.

My priorities for the mentally handicapped, apart from the training and employment question which I mentioned earlier, include streamlining the system of administration and planning the services in question. This will involve setting up an administration system which provides for far greater co-operation between health boards and voluntary bodies. Health boards have the statutory responsibility to ensure that health services, including mental handicap services, are available to those entitled to them. For historical reasons the extent to which they have been involved in the provision of these services has been minimal.

This will obviously have to change. Voluntary agencies cannot bear the burden alone and they themselves are the first to recognise this. What is required is close co-operation between the statutory and voluntary agencies so that integrated planning can take place. I hope to initiate discussions on this issue shortly.

A cursory glance at our services for mentally handicapped people reveals a further glaring defect in our present arrangements. At present it is estimated that 2,600 mentally handicapped persons are accommodated in our psychiatric hospitals.

This type of accommodation is unsuited to their needs. In order to provide the right type of accommodation the building programme for the adult mentally handicapped will have to be extended. This is also necessary to reduce the adult population in residential accommodation designed for children. I hope to extend this building programme as quickly as our resources allow.

In speaking to the House on services for the mentally ill and the handicapped I have avoided detailing the specific improvements which have taken place during the current year. These important details are provided in a separate statistical document which I have circulated separately.

What I have tried to do today is to indicate some of the major defects in our present arrangements and to indicate how I propose to deal with them. The White Paper will deal with these and other proposals more extensively.

I hope I have conveyed to the House my concern to see substantial improvements in our services for the handicapped and the mentally ill. As I said earlier, these groups in our society have suffered relative neglect in the past and we today have an obligation to redress the balance. This process has begun with the report of the working party on training and employment for the handicapped. It will continue with the publication of my White Paper. Each document will be backed up with concrete action during the life-time of this Government.

I have dealt in some detail with the progress which has occurred during the current year under the three main programme headings for which I have responsibility as Minister for Health. I would like to comment now on a number of other developments which have taken place during the same period.

I recently announced my decision to set up a working party on nursing. I did so after agreeing with the Irish Nurses Organisation, the Irish Matrons' Association and An Bord Altranais, that a fundamental review of general nursing is called for. This will be the first such review since the foundation of the State and I am very pleased indeed that it will commence shortly.

I have been awaiting nominations to the working party until recently. I expect that about 20 persons will be nominated, about half of whom will be nurses. I am confident that it will make very valuable recommendations not alone for the improvement of nursing services but also to enable the nursing professions to meet the challenge of rapidly increasing changes in techniques and practices.

The budget for health education and publicity in my Department in the current year amounts to £100,000 for the nine-month period.

The main emphasis in our health education programme this year was on the twin problems of alcoholism and excessive drinking and on our anti-smoking campaign.

Excessive spending on alcohol has caused me great concern and I am particularly concerned with the emergence of a serious drinking problem among young people. In various seminars and lectures to parents, teachers and other groups organised by my Department the necessity of developing correct and mature attitudes to drinking has been emphasised. Our current advertising campaign stresses that there are many alternatives to excessive drinking and I hope that this message is getting across, especially to young people.

Our health education programme covers a wide range of preventive health issues at present and is pursued with a wide range of techniques. Leaflets are widely distributed, seminars and lectures are organised throughout the country and an extensive media campaign is undertaken. All of these are having an impact, and must be continued vigorously.

Nonetheless I have felt for some time that we need a central institution to co-ordinate and develop health education nationally. We need to create a coherent health education programme which combines the resources available to statutory and voluntary agencies.

I was very pleased therefore to accept the main recommendation of the Committee on Drug Education that such a body should be set up. With the agreement of the Government, I have decided to establish a health education bureau and I am now in the process of appointing members. I also propose to appoint a broadly-based advisory committee, which will be representative of all the bodies engaged in various aspects of health education.

The bureau will be responsible for formulating integrated health education programmes in accordance with agreed national priorities. It will also be responsible for carrying out those programmes in co-operation with the statutory and voluntary bodies already engaged in this vital area.

I have every reason to believe that the bureau, with the help and advice of the advisory committee, will successfully tackle the important tasks it has been given. Demand for health services invariably outstrips the resources available at any one time. We need therefore to concentrate the greatest possible efforts on preventive measures. Health education is one of the best such measures.

I am very pleased to inform the House that Mr. Bunny Carr, who was chairman of the Committee on Drug Education, has agreed to act as chairman of the bureau. I would like to place on record my thanks to him for accepting this onorous task.

Deputies will recall my statement in the House on 27th March last, when I indicated that the Government's proposal to extend "limited eligibility" health services to the entire population would have to be deferred. I outlined in considerable detail then the reasons why I felt that there was no option but to postpone the scheme for a period in order to avoid any danger to human life and to avoid confrontation with the medical profession.

I announced on that occasion that, in an effort to resolve the impasse which had arisen, I proposed to set up an independent review body to make recommendations on the system or systems of payment which should operate when the income limits from health services were abolished. It was my belief that the findings of this independent body would make a substantial contribution towards achieving a settlement which would allow the full implementation of the Government's scheme.

The medical consultants again declared their opposition to what I am sure all Deputies would consider to be a very reasonable proposal. The medical consultants and I had failed to agree on the appropriate method of remuneration. Therefore I proposed the establishment of a completely independent body simply to make recommendations on what they considered the most appropriate method.

In May there were a number of further meetings between the consultants and officers of my Department and I myself met them on 23rd of May. At that meeting the consultants again indicated that they wished direct negotiations to continue and were opposed to the establishment of the review body. I appealed to them to co-operate and repeated my appeal in writing on 28th May. In separate letters from the IMA and Medical Union on 17th and 26th June respectively it was indicated that the organised profession would not participate in the activities of the proposed review body.

On 11th July I established the review body with the following terms of reference:

To examine and report on the systems and rates of payment and conditions of employment of consultants in hospitals engaged in the provision of services under the Health Act, 1970, which would be appropriate in the context of the abolition of income and valuation limits for limited eligibility.

The review body have invited submission from persons or organisations wishing to make them. I have made my submission. I look forward to receiving the recommendations of the body as soon as possible and I am confident that they will make a substantial contribution towards resolving a very complex and difficult matter.

Finally, before leaving this subject, I wish to pay tribute to the unselfishness and public spiritness of the members of the review body in agreeing to accept such a difficult and timeconsuming assignment. I would also like to repeat my determination and that of the Government to ensure that there is full implementation of the free hospital scheme with a minimum of delay. I expect to resume discussions with the medical profession as soon as the review body's recommendations are available.

The year 1974 has been an exceptionally good year as far as the development of our health services is concerned. I have already indicated that expenditure increased by some 7 per cent in real terms during the period, enabling substantial improvements to take place over a wide range of individual services. In addition a great deal of forward-planning has been undertaken, particularly in relation to the general hospitals programme, the development of community care teams and the provision of services for the handicapped and mentally ill. The long-term planning exercise which I have undertaken in these and other areas will chart the way forward towards major developments in the future.

I must state at this point however that it will not be possible for me, as Minister for Health, to maintain the same rate of expansion in our health services in 1975 as I was able to achieve during the past two years.

Next year, as the House knows, will be an extremely difficult year for this and many other countries in an economic sense. All industrialised nations are going through a period of serious economic recession combined with high inflation. Ireland cannot escape the effects of this world-wide phenomenon. Our economic prospects have been seriously affected and there is very little we can do about it in the short-term since the causes of our problems are largely outside our control.

In this situation it is inevitable that the present growth rate in health expenditure will not be maintained in 1975. I feel that I must inform the House of this reality since it would be pointless to pretend that services can be developed as quickly as any of us would like in this new situation.

I expect to maintain our existing range of services at their present level overall. In addition I will be able to provide for a limited range of new developments. These will have to be carefully analysed so that priorities are established. I intend to undertake the task of establishing these priorities shortly.

The first thing that strikes one about the lengthy speech of the Minister for Health is that there is not one radically new proposal in it for the future development of our health services. The whole thing is a continuation of what the late Erskine Childers did and amounts to no more than that, spending a bit more money here and a bit more money there, frequently thanks to inflation rather than policy. It is disappointing that the fillip which our health services got in the years 1969-73 may well have ended at that time and that we have not the kind of on-going programme of new ideas we had then. All we have is an on-going programme of the ideas which were brought into effect during that period.

The economic homily which we got in the last page of the Minister's speech is very significant, and it is significant that it is not just confined to health. We are being told that in 1975 money will not be there, apparently, for things that will be necessary, and that in particular there will not be development of the health services in the way the Minister would like to see it done. If there is to be this cutting back on health, how much greater will the cutting back be in other less vital fields?

The year 1974 has been described as an exceptionally good one in so far as our health services are concerned but we are told-1975 will not be. Many of us could legitimately dispute whether 1974 was a good year. If it was a good year for spending, perhaps more money was spent then than ever before, but that is about the height of the achievement. What the achievements were is debatable, because overlaying the whole of the health field today there is one basic thing, which is the sense of acrimony now existing between the Minister for Health and the whole medical profession, not just the consultants, a sense of unease, of unhappiness, an unwillingness on both sides—on the one hand, the Department of Health and the Minister and on the other the profession as a whole—to co-operate with one another because of this acrimony which has grown up, an acrimony which I have said before and which I repeat was notably absent in the golden years of our health services, 1969 to 1973. While there is that mutual suspicion and fear on the part of the profession that there is somebody there whose main objective in changing the health services seems to be to do it in such a way as to cause the maximum damage to the profession, even if that suspicion and fear were only partially and not totally well founded, you will not have the kind of active co-operation that was given from 1969 to 1973 which enabled such worthwhile improvements to be brought about at that time and which enabled major changes in our health services to be agreed to with the minimum of fighting or delay.

There were major changes at that time in the general medical services. At long last, maybe many years after it should have happened, the old dispensary system went. The transition from that to the choice of doctor scheme that we have now was administratively and technically a most difficult task. If the doctors had chosen to drag their feet in relation to that scheme it would not have been introduced by 1990. The doctors chose not to: they responded to the then Minister for Health because they saw in him a man who was genuinely interested, in co-operation with everyone else, to try to improve the services that would be available to the people. They saw that his total commitment was to make that improvement and that in the process he was not going to try to decrease people's incomes or change their status or anything else. He was not interested in these petty ideological side issues. Unfortunately, in the last 20 months we have had an awful lot of that and very little of anything else.

This morning there was a fairly major Supplementary Estimate for Health passed by agreement without discussion on the basis that we could refer to it on this Estimate. It was for £4.632 million, which is a lot of money. It is disturbing that this should be so. The principal part of it is £4.132 million for grants to health boards which appears to have arisen from the fact that they and the Department, or either of them, underestimated the health board expenditure for the current year. I rather think the underestimation was in the Department rather than in the health boards because of the terrible cutting back that went on in relation to health board estimates at the beginning of this financial year. It is wrong that the underestimation by the Department should be as enormous as £4.13 million in relation to grants alone.

However, the most significant element in this shortfall of money which we had to vote this morning is a deficiency in the appropriations-in-aid from the health contributions of persons with limited eligibility. This is a topical matter because although the Minister made no reference to it in his speech, he has before the House a Bill due for Second Reading next Tuesday in which he proposes almost to double the contributions of those who have limited eligibility at the moment, and they comprise 58 per cent of the population, on the latest figures I have. Their contribution is to be doubled in the context of a situation in which there is a shortfall of £500,000 in an estimate of £5 million for these contributions in the current year.

With all respect to the Minister, he rather naïvely told us that the shortfall occurred because we had decided to postpone the extension of the limited eligibility category to the remaining 10 per cent who do not come under it. I venture to suggest to the Minister and the House that that is not a correct explanation, and the Minister knows it. They could not have budgeted or estimated last year in respect of this when the scheme had not been brought in. When they proposed to bring it in and when draft regulations were before this House last March and when the costing was gone into at that time, one of the elements for which credit was taken were the additional contributions which would be made by the 10 per cent, the 300,000 who would be coming in for limited eligibility.

The Minister cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that the net cost, which he had got down as low as the extraordinary figure of £1.8 million, was brought down to that by among other things savings in income tax when the voluntary health would be virtually abolished and income tax allowances in relation to health insurance would, therefore, disappear and, on the other hand, the extra money that would come from these 300,000 people who would come within the limited eligibility category. He now tells us they had already allowed for that in the previous Estimate which had already been prepared at that time. They say that because those extra people did not come in the £5 million cannot be got in—it is £500,000 short. He cannot have it both ways: he cannot have them contributing to the original Estimate and at the same time take credit for their contributions when he is costing for these people coming in later on.

I suggest that the truth is that the health boards cannot get any significant amount of money in from the people who are paying the £7 per year. The Revenue Commissioners are taking it off the unfortunate workers—the 15p is now to be 26p—who never see it because it is taken away with their income tax, but I am told that the health boards from all over the country are sending out letter after letter at the cost of 7p a time to farmers mainly and others trying to get their money in and they are failing.

One reason why the farmers in particular have failed to pay, this year, apart from any natural reluctance they might have about paying, is that a great number are not in a position to do so. The Minister would have been better advised to come clean about that rather than try to make up this artificial excuse in relation to the deficiency in the appropriations-in-aid.

I should like to comment on the question of hospital development. The Chair saw fit to disallow a series of questions I put to the Minister for Health on this matter some weeks ago on the grounds that the Minister had no responsibility in the matter. I thought this was rather peculiar. In his speech the Minister set out the position with regard to a development programme for our hospitals generally. The views of Comhairle na nOspidéal have been available to the Minister for approximately 12 months in relation to most of the regions involved but no decisions have been taken except in relation to the city of Dublin. The Minister had the effrontery in his speech to boast: "We have therefore found a solution to the Dublin area and this constitutes a considerable achievement within a period of 20 months."

Let us consider the situation. A committee of Comhairle na nOspidéal produced a programme of hospital building for Dublin. It is a considerably altered version of the Fitzgerald Report. It envisages six major hospitals in Dublin, where Fitzgerald recommended two or three. Everyone was consulted by this committee and the views of all were taken into account. When it was finally published it suited everyone; nobody complained and, as the Minister said, there was virtual unanimity in relation to Dublin. It was a question of the Minister signing his name and there was the plan for Dublin.

However, everywhere else there is not unanimity. In some cases there is quite violent disagreement and in other cases the disagreement is much more moderate and limited, The only place in the country where there was agreement was Dublin. The Minister signed his name to the report of Comhairle na nOspidéal, a report that suited everyone, and it was put into operation. This is regarded as a great achievement in 20 months.

The problems are in Cork, in the mid-west and the western regions but nothing has been done there. I do not want to sound acrimonious—I think the word "abrasive" is the one used in relation to me—but I take exception to the Minister putting into the middle of a quite moderate speech the following sentence: "This Government will take the necessary decisions where previous Governments failed." This was in relation to the hospital development programme.

Let us consider the history of this matter. In the late 1960s it became clear to three successive Ministers for Health—the late Donogh O'Malley, Deputy Seán Flanagan and the late Erskine Childers—that the whole health system would have to be reorganised from an administrative and regional point of view. Most people were agreed on that. It was done in a Bill that ultimately became the Health Act, 1970. That Act provided for the setting up of Comhairle na nOspiléal to advise in relation to hospital development. I do not know the exact date when that body came into existence but I think it was towards the end of 1972. They started work then and they examined the many difficulties in every health board region. They spent most of 1973 on this work and in consultation with the regional health board, which had been established in 1972, they drew up reports for submission to the Minister. The present Minister began to receive those reports towards the end of 1973 and in 1974.

No Minister for Health in his sane senses from the mid-1960s would have dreamt of drawing up a national programme of hospital building without waiting for the advice of Comhairle na nOspidéal and the regional hospital boards. That was in the White Paper on health in 1966, in the Health Bill in the late 1960s that became the Health Act, 1970. If any Minister had taken major decisions about a national building programme before the Health Act, 1970, and before the views of the various subsidiary bodies set up as a result had been taken into account, he would have been mad and failing in his duty. Erskine Childers and those who went before him are being criticised here by this Minister, but if they had taken any decisions of that kind it would have been grossly in neglect of their duty. Even if it were only in relation to one hospital it would have entailed expenditure of several million pounds and if it did not fit in to a subsequent overall programme it would have been money down the drain.

There were decisions made about the building of hospitals that, in the light of events, many people have questioned. Strangely enough, one case is St. Vincent's Hospital, Elm Park, which has been proved to be totally inadequate so far as size is concerned. It has only 450 beds which, at the time, seemed very substantial. Many of their post-operative patients are now at Leopardstown Park and presumably they have to go to other places also. I give that case as an example of how foolish the last three Ministers for Health would have been to try to put into effect a national plan without waiting for the advice of Comhairle na nOspidéal and the regional hospital boards.

I want to repeat, so that it may be clearly understood, that the advice and reports only became available in the last 12 months and the only person who had the opportunity of making the decisions is the present Minister for Health. The only thing he has decided is in relation to Dublin, where he has admitted there was total unanimity. He boasts that that is an achievement after 20 months in office. I would have done it in five minutes because it was the easiest thing in the world to do. What is very significant is that in relation to all the other areas where there is disagreement the Minister has reneged on his statutory responsibility under the Health Act of 1970 to make the decisions because as he told us on 23rd October, he has set up a subcommittee of the Cabinet to make decisions.

I was very much taken aback by that announcement. On the same day the Minister was asked a series of questions by a number of Deputies from this side of the House in regard to the proposals for various hospitals. In order to try to avoid giving a specific answer to any of the questions the Minister took Nos. 18 to 25, inclusive, together. It appears that the Chair has no discretion in these matters. To give an example of the disparity of the nature of the questions asked, Deputy Cronin asked about the non-availability of an anaesthetist in Mallow Hospital while Deputy Connolly asked about plans for a new slaughterhouse at St. Fintan's Hospital, Portlaoise. I find it difficult to associate the question of the non-availability of an anaesthetist at Mallow Hospital with the proposals to provide a new slaughterhouse at a hospital in Portlaoise. However they were taken together in conjunction with a number of other questions and no answer was given in relation to any of the inquiries except that the Minister stated, as reported at column 24 of the Official Report for the day in question:

A Cabinet subcommittee has been set up to consider the proposals for hospital developments which evolved from examination by the various health administrative bodies. As Deputies are aware, it was announced recently that the hospital plans for Dublin have been approved by the Government.

On that occasion I decided not to ask any supplementary questions about this sub-committee for the very good reason that, as about 20 had been asked already by other Deputies, the Ceann Comhairle was not likely to allow me put further questions. However I endeavoured to table a series of questions to the Minister regarding this subcommittee, but the Chair saw fit to disallow all of them on the grounds that the Minister had no responsibility in the matter. I shall merely say that that was a strange ruling because the whole point of the question was that the Minister had responsibility.

The Health Act of 1970 lays down that the ultimate decision in relation to these matters be made by the Minister for Health. There is no reference to Cabinet subcommittees or to the Government. These questions are tricky political ones everywhere outside of Dublin. The Minister, instead of facing up to the difficulties and making what are the right decisions in medical and health terms, irrespective of the consequences, will drag the matter out and will bring in his colleagues from various parts of the country and from different parties and allow them discuss these matters, and these are the people he will allow make the decisions although they have not available to them directly the advice of the Department or of any of the medical sources. They will make their decision not for health but for political reasons. If the Minister for Justice were to set up a sub-committee of the Government to advise him on where new Garda stations were to be built, his action would be regarded as a joke and he would be told that unless he is totally incompetent he should make the decision himself. I know that hospitals are a great deal more important than Garda stations but the principle is the same.

I regret to say that the Minister for Health is not facing up to difficulties. He should have learned by now that any Minister faced with serious problems must make decisions that are in the national interest although those decisions may be unpopular politically. This Minister is not doing that. Reports from the various administrative bodies such as Comhairle na nOspideal are now available—some of them have been available for the past 12 months—but they are not being acted on because there is disagreement. The people who are suffering by the failure to make the decisions are the sick and every month's delay is adding to the ultimate costs, because hospitals are notoriously expensive and are becoming more so.

In one of the questions I put down I asked who were the personnel who formed this Cabinet subcommittee. My reason for asking this was that, if they are to make the decisions, public representatives in this House and elsewhere as well as members of the public who are affected by these considerations are entitled to make representations to them. There will be no point in making representations to the Minister for Health if he is responsible only for, say, one-sixth of the decision-making. We are entitled to know who the other persons are and why they were appointed. We are entitled to know, too, why the Minister has deserted his post in this very important matter and has given over his own statutory responsibility under the Health Act of 1970 to a committee of his colleagues.

Can there be any explanation for it other than the political one? These hospital questions are hot potatoes and the Minister and the Government wish them to be decided in the way that will have the least political implications. The only consideration that is relevant is the question of what is right in the interests of those people who are sick now or who may be sick in the future. The Minister must forget about local pressure groups in cases where he is convinced that to do what they wish would not be in the interests of the people in the various regions so far as health is concerned.

I have referred already to the problems which the Minister is experiencing with the medical profession. I regret that he sees fit to blame them for non-co-operation. They have a point of view, although I am not saying that I agree with everything they say or do; but the way they have been treated in regard to some matters would entitle them to be aggrieved.

About a month ago, when I spoke during the debate on the motion of confidence in the Government, I said that if the Minister, as a trade union official, saw his members treated in the way in which he treated the doctors in the summer of 1973, he would be the first to bring his members out on strike. If, say, trade unionists in a factory were told that within an hour their whole system of work and of remuneration would change and that they would have to accept this change, they would be negligent and foolish if they did not protest in the strongest terms possible; but that is what happened in respect of the consultants. They were told that within an hour the changes would be announced, that their views did not matter but that if they so wished they could make their views known later. I would contrast that attitude with the attitude adopted by the late Mr. Childers who, in a painstaking and careful way negotiated the transition from the old dispensary system to the new choice of doctor scheme. If the doctors had chosen to drag their feet on that occasion they could have blocked that until 1990 but the scheme was implemented within 12 months. If the present Minister had had a different approach where the consultants were concerned, although there probably would always be a fundamental disagreement with the Minister's proposals, they might well have agreed to work these proposals and not to leave the Minister in the foolish situation in which he finds himself now.

One of the marks of this Minister's administration of the Department of Health, as was expressed to me recently by a number of people, is that it consists of a series of damping down operations. A crisis blows up in a particular area. The Minister is very strong about it and says that these people are unreasonable, that they were made a reasonable offer and would not take it. Then something happens and the health services are affected. Public pressure and pressure in this House builds up and he then rushes in and makes a settlement which is far more expensive than if he had settled it reasonably in the first instance.

The prime example of that is the case of the junior hospital doctors where there was a grossly expensive settlement, so much so that the whole structure of careers in medicine at that level has changed since then. Our hospitals are now jammed with doctors at that level to the extent that many young Irish graduates have to go to England to do their post-graduate training and registration. The general medical service, which I have been recommending over the past 12 months to the Minister should be developed still further, is now at a stage where many doctors in it are overburdened and have 2,000 or more patients in their area apart from their private practice.

That is an example of lack of overall planning of the career structure in medicine. If there had been overall planning you would not have these recurring crises in different parts of the medical arena which have to be damped down at great cost. If a young doctor or graduate could be allowed to choose which field he entered he should then be trained for that field. This might take five years. But if he undertakes that training he should be guaranteed suitable posts at different levels right up to what would be the equivalent of consultant level by the time he is 40 years of age. The whole system is hit-or-miss. It works for some people but not for others and a great many young doctors are worried because they do not know what their prospects are.

There is virtually no training in the universities for those who are going into general practice and it is very difficult for them to get experience. If we had people specially trained, both before and after graduation, in general practice they should be guaranteed entry into the general medical service.

At present there is a very unsatisfactory situation and I do not think that what the Minister has now proposed to the medical organisations will solve it. Again, it is an example of damping down of crises.

There is an organisation called the Excluded Practitioners Association with about 130 members who are kept out. The Minister now proposes to let them in. That will quieten them. But in two years' time there will be an Excluded Practitioners (No. 2) Association, all the people now in the present category who are to be let in. What the Minister is doing is not solving the problem; it is just getting them off his back for the time being. He hopes he will not be Minister for Health in two years' time and that somebody else can worry about it. That is avoiding problems.

There is no forward planning of career structures for doctors so far as the development of medical services is concerned. Remuneration is not the only thing worrying doctors now, especially the younger ones; it is the feeling that they are never secure. They do not know which branch to enter because even the most able ones have no guarantee that they will get their due reward in the end. That is an area in which the Minister could intervene and lay down the guidelines and general outlines I have in mind. You could have a situation where certain doctors choose general practice on graduation and are trained specifically for that and are then guaranteed entry to the general medical service or, alternatively, those who choose surgery or some other branch will be able to go into a particular channel in which, if they are competent, they will arrive at a certain level by a certain age. That would get rid of much dissatisfaction which gives rise to much of the pressure continually being put on the Minister by people not so much interested in money but using money as a lever to avoid the more long-term difficulties that they have.

I want to speak on the Voluntary Health Insurance Board but I am in some difficulty because I understand their report was published yesterday in the newspapers and, presumably, came out on the previous day. I cannot get a copy of it. They do not send me or, so far as I know, any Member of the House a copy of the report and I am dependent on a very short summary which appeared in the newspapers. We discover that for the first time in its history, so far as I know—I cannot be certain because I cannot get the report—the board lost money last year. They lost £500,000. They and I know why they lost, but they cannot say it because they are a semi-State organisation. They lost it because of the messing that went on in the Department of Health last March. They sent out tens of thousands of circulars telling people to reduce their cover and then had to send out tens of thousands more in April telling people to go back to their previous situation. That is where they lost the money. Whatever nice words they use in their report, which I have not read, let nobody be under any illusions that it was anybody other than the Minister for Health who lost the £500,000.

However that is only money, if you like, and it is less important than what the VHI set out to do. I want to say something about the board in general. In his speech the Minister said that 44 per cent of our health expenditure was on the hospital service and he regretted that that was so high a proportion. I have been saying that for the past 12 months and I am glad that the Minister now takes that view and that he hopes to reduce the proportion. The amount cannot be reduced but the proportion might be. I heartily agree, and I hope it is in the community field that the increases will come in proportion.

Our hospital services are very costly and are overburdened. They cannot cope with existing pressure on them. That is why I think the Minister is totally wrong—and Deputy Dr. O'Connell agrees with me, and clearly said so at the Labour Party conference this year—in placing a heavier burden still on them. I now suggest to the Minister one reason why there are more people in Irish hospitals than need be.

One of the reasons why there are more people in our hospitals than need be is the Voluntary Health Insurance Board. They have a system which is, from what I can gather, the direct opposite of the system employed by similar boards in other countries. They will not pay for you unless you go into hospital. They have some kind of extra out-patient scheme now but it is only small. In their main scheme they will not pay for you unless you go into hospital and stay there for 24 hours. In other countries unless you get their permission to go into hospital they will not pay for you. The whole idea in insurance schemes in other countries is to encourage people to stay out of hospital, not so much in Britain but certainly in the continental systems. Here they are absolutely made in my view and the Minister for Health is mad to allow them to continue this system of driving into hospital people who do not need to go there at all. You go in for some minor test which could easily be done in the OPD but you have a bit of a rest and the VHI will pay for it. Beds are being occupied by people who are comparatively well-off because they can afford to pay the premiums to the VHI and the people who are suffering are poor people with medical cards who are put to the back of the queue. It is a crying shame that much of our grossly excessive bed occupancy should be attributable to people who do not have to go to hospital but who are being forced in there by the rules of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board.

Hear, hear.

The Minister should immediately instruct that board to make a radical change in their payment policy. There should be some system of checking whether people need to go to hospital and the board should refuse to pay in cases where the necessity to go into hospital has not been established. In other words, they should do the direct opposite to what they are doing. It is a well-known phenomenon throughout this country that a certain type of person, who perhaps has been working hard and is feeling a bit down in himself or herself, will go into an expensive nursing home in Dublin or elsewhere for a rest. They are quite blatant about it and it costs them nothing or virtually nothing. That is happening at a time when our bed occupancy rate is grossly above what is desirable.

If I were Minister for Health in the morning the first thing I would do would be to get on the telephone to the Voluntary Health Insurance Board and tell them to put their house in order. They have performed a very valuable function. There is no doubt about that. However, at this time and in the economic conditions which the Minister has been talking about and at a time when it often takes two, four, six or eight weeks for a medical card holder to get into hospital for particular types of operation that are not very acute, that should not be allowed. I get reports about the waiting lists from all over the country. There is a nine months' waiting period I am told in Roscommon for ophthalmology, six weeks here and there for various other things. It can be three and four weeks in Limerick for certain types of X-rays. I am told it can be up to six weeks in Dublin for particular X-rays. There are people brought into hospital as in-patients for X-rays which necessitate their taking barium meal. There have been instances in the city of Dublin where people have waited between three and four weeks in hospital just to have that test. Look at the monstrous waste of resources in that situation.

It is in the context of that sort of thing happening that the VHI Board was cluttering up our hospitals unnecessarily and this is only one aspect of a case on a broader scale that I have been trying to make to the Minister. It is the policy which Fianna Fáil will put into effect as soon as we get back into office and that is to concentrate our resources away from the hospital, away from institutionalising people and into the community health services, pump more money into the general medical service. We have seen the figures quoted by the Minister today. The cost of the GHS in the last financial year was £13.1 million. That figure covers, he told us, 34 per cent of the population. Let us take in another 34 per cent. I do not think it will cost more than £13.1 million extra. It may cost less because experience shows that the lower the socio-economic grouping of a person the higher his call rate on doctors. We can bring in, therefore, another 34 per cent of our population and have 68 per cent of our population covered for £13.1 million. All you lose by doing that are the limited eligibility contributions of the extra 34 per cent you are bringing in and you only got £4½ million last year from 60 per cent. Therefore, you lose about £2 million to £2½ million in those contributions. And you can give a proper primary medical service to 68 per cent of our population if you do that at a cost of £13.1 million and for God's sake forget about the hospitals and shoving more people into them.

That is the policy of this party As soon as we are back in office that is what we will do. The tone of the Minister's speech today is very much more on the lines of what I have been advocating than were his previous speeches. There is, at last, an acceptance that the proportion of our health expenditure on hospitalisation is too high and that there is a need to increase considerably the proportion which is to be spent on the community health services, including of course the general medical service.

I regret that only one page of this fairly comprehensive speech was devoted to dental health. It is an aspect of our health services in which for 50 years every Minister, I am afraid, has done an awful lot less than he should have done. The tragedy is that the present Minister is doing a lot less too. He has spoken of an increase of 50 per cent in wholetime dentists over the past five years. A 50 per cent increase in anything sounds great but if you are beginning from almost nothing 50 per cent does not mean that much. I am afraid 500 per cent would scarcely be enough in the present situation.

There is a statutory obligation under the Health Acts to provide full dental services for medical card holders and primary school children. No serious effort is made to provide that. As a lawyer it seems to me that, because that statutory duty is plainly set out, if any citizen who came into either of those categories were to walk into the High Court in the morning and take out a writ against the Minister for Health, the High Court would issue an order of mandamus against the Minister. The Minister would be put in the position then that he would have to come here that afternoon with an emergency Bill to ask the House to repeal the various sections in the Health Acts which placed this statutory obligation on him.

The last time I spoke here on Health on the Confidence Motion, I drew an analogy with the Government or a former Government of Sri Lanka passing Bills by the new time to provide comprehensive medical services when there was a great shortage of doctors, to provide free rice for 100 per cent of the population when there was a total failure of the harvest in that year. On paper the people had all these things; in practice, of course, they had nothing.

The situation in relation to dental health is the same. Dental health is not just trying to avoid pains in your teeth. It has a major bearing on a person's general health, particularly in older people who have lost their teeth, their general health will deteriorate for that reason and can deteriorate quite seriously. Fluoridation has been a great asset in the field of preventive dentistry, but unfortunately only 50 per cent of our population have it. I questioned the Minister here some months ago about the prospect of increasing the coverage, and it seemed to be not very good. I am also told that the supervision of some of the fluoridation plants is not great and that in many cases they break down for a month or more at a time before the fault is found and rectified. I know it is inevitable in relation to a certain percentage, but it does seem wrong that half our people should not have the benefit of that. I know there is nothing we can do about the people who are getting water from a private supply, but everyone on a public supply should, almost as a matter of right, have fluoride in the water coming to it, in fairness to his children and to the future dental health of the country.

I shall not delay the House any longer—even though there are many other aspects of this speech that I would like to talk about—except to say I have no doubt that the undertaking given this morning by the Minister that this debate will go on next week and that it would be a full debate, will be availed of by Members, because up to now, in the 20 months of this Government, we have had only four hours' debate on health, and that was on a Thursday morning last March, of which the Minister and I took up half ourselves.

While I may criticise the Minister and feel my criticisms are well justified, at the same time I appreciate that the office he holds is not an easy one. I appreciate that, although his ideas are ill-conceived at times, he is doing his best in a field that is of vital importance and in that respect I wish his efforts every success.

I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate. I agree with Deputy O'Malley that it is a long time since we had the opportunity of debating the Estimates for Health. We should look at the health services, first of all, in terms of the general practitioner service—the people providing family doctor service—the hospitalisation service and the general public health services. In providing health services I would imagine the Minister must be guided by what he considers, having regard to the available resources, the basic priorities.

My priorities would be in the field of preventive medicine. We should be talking in terms of providing primary health services as a first priority. If we expand the primary health services we shall be able then to prevent expensive hospitalisation, and this is the major cost in our health services at the moment. I must say—and I disagree with my Minister in saying this—that priorities may be wrong if we talk in terms of expanding the hospitalisation service and not look at the much more important general medical services.

The Minister has said that 34 per cent of our population benefit from the free family doctor service, and the present guideline as to the limits of eligibility for a medical card are totally unrealistic having regard to inflation. Besides the unrealistic limits of eligibility there is the question of public ignorance as to who or who is not entitled to a medical card. It is a shocking indictment of our health boards and our Health Department that we do not publish this. It has been said to me in answer to Dáil questions that the public representatives know. Again it is a dreadful indictment of our system that it should be left in the hands of public representatives to tell the people what they are entitled to or to apply on their behalf and give the impression that the TDs have got the medical cards for them. It should be spelled out in the national Press, on television and radio, exactly what their entitlements are. I would appeal to the Minister, as I have done on previous occasions, to let the people know through the media, when the new limits of eligibility are announced on 1st January, whether or not they are entitled to a medical card.

At the Medical Union annual general meeting in Wexford recently there was an appalling ignorance even among doctors as to who was or was not entitled to a medical card. If they are uninformed, how much more so are those most in need? That should be No. 1 on the list of priorities in the Department of Health, and they should ask the health board CEOs to announce this. If there is to be uniformity among health boards on limits of eligibility, as the Minister has decided and as his predecessor did, it should be the function of the Department of Health to announce this.

The position with regard to who is and who is not entitled to a medical card can be summarised by saying that £20 a week entitles a man and his wife to a medical card, with £1.75p in respect of each child, and anything in excess of £2 per week will be taken into account as travelling expenses. These limits are utterly unrealistic and they only result in the creation of considerable hardship. It is said that the CEO has discretionary powers but, having seen so many deprived of medical cards, I cannot see where these powers are exercised. The people are above the limits. The limits bear no relevance to the present high cost of living. The Health Act of 1970 is quite wrong since it takes no account of a husband and wife and family trying to live. Where there are young children there is always recurring illness. Yet these people are denied a medical card. On the other hand, you find a student, irrespective of the household means, entitled to a medical card. The situation makes no sense. It takes no account of the proper priorities. I would appeal to the Minister to extend the general medical services.

I was interested to hear Deputy O'Malley urging the extension of medical cards to a higher percentage of the population. I have been urging this for years. This is a most important aspect of health services. If £13,500,000 will provide medical cards for 34 per cent of the population, then on my calculation, we could provide the same service for the other 66 per cent for about £25 million more. The people absorbing the £13.5 million are those in the lower socio-economic group. It was found in Britain that the greatest demands on the doctors' services came from the lower socio-economic group. The Department have decided that the average visiting rate should be 3.5; it is, in fact, up now to 4.5 or 5. That figure would be much lower for the middle income and higher income groups and we could therefore provide a medical card for everyone at an extra cost of only £25 million.

We could also ensure enormous savings in the health services because those who do not have medical cards now and who are reluctant to call doctors because the cost is prohibitive and they opt instead for free hospitalisation would then be in a position to call doctors to their homes and in that way the burden on the hospitals would be reduced. The burden at the moment is enormous. The cost per patient per week in the teaching hospitals is in the region of £100, or possibly more. It is ludicrous to exclude these sections from the family doctor service and provide free hospitalisation at enormous cost. The cost of the family doctor would be much lower. I do not care if I offend people when I put forward these arguments. I believe the present position is quite wrong and should be looked at again.

Providing free hospitalisation for an extra 10 per cent will cost the country something in the region of £18 million. If my figures and facts are wrong, I will be the first to apologise, but I am confident my figures are right. As I said, a free family doctor service for the entire population would cost an extra £25 million.

The Minister has inherited all the existing out-of-date hospitals. These are not suitable to meet modern demands. We have had no proper hospital building programme for years. The only one I can think of in Dublin is St. Vincent's Hospital; in Galway there is the regional hospital and I think there is one in Bantry. No money has been devoted to hospital building and, if we proceed with the plan to go ahead for free hospitalisation, we will impose a tremendous burden on our existing hospitals. It is not easy at the moment to get patients into hospitals. If a patient is over 65 years of age one has to try to sidetrack the question of age because, if one does not, one simply will not get the patient in.

Again, there is a very long waiting list for operations and it is impossible to get an appointment in the out-patients' departments for anything up to eight or ten weeks in Dublin at the moment. The situation is even worse than that where operations are concerned. In the case of eyes and the ophthalmological clinics the situation is very serious. In the Richmond they are bursting at the seams. Little sums are doled out to help here and there, but nothing worthwhile is forthcoming. There is no proper planning.

The plan for the north city hospital has been approved at least three times to my knowledge since it was first announced. We must move fast and come to an agreement about the site. The nuns are quite willing to give the Beaumont site. The Mater, the Richmond and Jervis Street should be told exactly what is happening. The money should be forthcoming. Let us talk in terms of mortgaging the future to build our hospitals now. Let us go ahead. In the Richmond Hospital the X-ray department is actually out in the corridor. How they cope in Jervis Street defeats me. It is a tribute to the management that they are able to cope.

The existing hospitals are not able to cope with the expanding population. A series of accidents could create very serious problems for these hospitals. It is not good enough to have a plan and approve the plan three times in one year. We must provide the money. One minute we are told the north city hospital will be built and the next minute we find that there is absolutely nothing being done. Let us have agreement now in writing and a timetable setting a date when the hospital will be built so that the hospital authorities will have some hope. Let us not throw an extra burden on them by talking in terms of free hospitalisation when the present beds are not able to cope with the expanding city.

Some time ago we had a charade in this House about contraception. It was a serious embarrassment to everyone. A private Bill is to be introduced in the other House proposing that a family planning service should be provided by the health boards. I have looked into this matter seriously and I cannot see how there is any need for this Bill. It is irrelevant, with due respect to Senator Robinson. If the health boards, under the direction of the Minister, were to operate family planning clinics as part of the public health service there would be no need for a change in our legislation.

This service could be provided as a proper public health service. There would be no danger of any abuse if the health boards were to provide an advisory service and a family planning service to those interested in them. There would be no danger of the permissiveness about which so many people talk. It would be part of the public health service and, as such, there would be no necessity whatever for a change in the law.

The present family planning clinics are operating within the law and they are providing a necessary service. Already 20,000 have been through those doors seeking this special service. There is a need for it. It can be provided. It is nonsense to say we would have to change the law. We can provide this service on the decision of the Minister. It is part of the public health service. This is the way it should be run. There are problems. Someone may ask: "What about outlying districts?" Why not mobile clinics? We provide the innoculation service and the child service. Let the family planning be part of the maternity services. This is what we should be talking about. All that is needed is the political will.

I will not delay the House because what I have to say can always be said in a few minutes. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously the question of a proper health education programme. The medical profession will stand indicted on this. We have been inclined to make people think in terms of illness. The whole service is illness orientated and the Department of Health have not contributed much to change that. We talk about illness all the time. We encourage a service which makes people go to their doctors. We should be talking in terms of proper preventive medicine, in terms of health, and having proper discussions and encouraging people not to think in terms of illness. If we had a proper health education programme we would reduce enormously the cost of our health services.

This calls for a proper national plan from the Department of Health. I know they are doing very good work in the field of alcoholism and I have seen their advertisements on television. It is ludicrous to see an advertisement on television advising people on the dangers of drinking followed by an advertisement showing the pleasures of alcohol. It calls for a co-ordinated plan between the Department of Health and the other responsible Department. The advertisement for alcohol nullifies the effect of the Department's advertisement and nothing is gained.

I have forgotten the name of the CEO in the Western Health Board but to my mind he is the most outstanding man in this country in the field of health. He has done more in his area than all the other health boards put together. I have no hesitation in saying this.

Mr. Hanlon.

Mr. Eamon Hanlon. He has started a health education programme in the area. He has built welfare homes. I have never seen anyone like him. What a pity we have not got him in the biggest health board in the country, the Eastern Health Board. Every other health board could take a lesson from him. We need men like him with this dynamism. He never seems to stop. I check on the activities of every health board and what this man is doing astonishes me more and more. It would be worth the Department's while to compare the different work being done by different health boards. Perhaps it is a smaller health board; I do not know.

The work being done by him is an example to all the other health boards. The other health boards should be asked by the Department to examine the proposals coming from his health board. They have proposals. They are implementing plans. They have a proper development programme. These are the things we want to see in other health boards but I am afraid they are missing, certainly in the Eastern Health Board. We need a man like him on the Eastern Health Board, if I may say so without casting any reflection on them.

I should like to refer to the lack of decision by the Government about upgrading our hospitals. This has been going on for a long time now. We had the Fitzgerald Report. I am not blaming the Minister for the procrastination that has gone on for years on this matter. I am of the opinion that the Fitzgerald Report is not as relevant now as it was then. Indeed at that time I did not think it was a realistic plan for our hospitals. The modifications made were good but we must make decisions. Our indecisiveness with regard to our hospitals is appalling. There is too much political expediency involved. We should be able to stand back from it and, if we offend one TD in one area, what about it? A Deputy must be able to say to his constituents: "This is it. It is not in the best interests of the hospital services that you should have a hospital here."

I went down to Athlone some years ago when there was talk about closing the Athlone Hospital. I was asked to go down and meet some people. It was a very small hospital with no proper facilities. I said to the most vocal of the objectors: "Suppose your child was ill, had suspected appendicitis and was taken into the local hospital. Say it was then found that something much more serious was wrong and they had not the facilities to deal with it and there could not be consultations with another surgeon how would you feel?" He said: "I would feel very upset." I said: "That is the reason I support the closure of a hospital like that." He saw the logic of that. This is the type of policy which should be emanating from the Department.

We should educate the public as to why we are doing this or that. If I may say so, our public representatives are not leading public opinion in their areas, but being led. This is not good. There should be an onus on Deputies to lead public opinion. They should say: "It may be a little inconvenient but it is best for the country, and that is what matters." We should risk unpopularity. That seems to be the courageous approach instead of everybody fighting for his own corner. We cannot avoid these decisions. We have got to make unpopular decisions. We cannot sweep them under the carpet. Having regard to some incidents which occurred, such as the bombings in Monaghan, we may have to decide that we may be wrong in closing down so many hospitals or in downgrading them, but we should make a decision. Uncertainty can have a very demoralising effect on the community and on the people who man the hospitals.

I should like to touch on our mental hospital service because, having seen a few of these institutions, I am not convinced that they are up to the standards we require for our citizens. Behind the facade and the most modern out-patient departments there are appalling conditions in many of these institutions. Some people say it is my hobby horse to refer over and over again to the Portrane Hospital. There is nothing more frustrating than to see still in existence the appalling conditions under which these human beings are living. I raised this question in 1969. This is the end of 1974 and unfortunately that situation still prevails. I will paint that picture again.

There are two temporary buildings —wooden structures—which were built 92 years ago for the workers on the main hospital. When I visited the hospital I saw there were only two toilets to cater for 96 women. The fact that they are mentally ill does not excuse this. We should be more sympathetic and try to do something for them. The Minister's predecessor gave me an assurance that the money was there and the plan was going ahead to demolish these structures and build a proper place. I was shown the site on which the building was to be erected. I was pushed by the health board to the Department of Health and the Department told me it was the fault of the health board. There seems to be no solution to the problem.

An attempt is being made to clear some of these mental hospitals. We must look at this in a realistic way. We must provide proper conditions in our mental and general hospitals. We must be prepared to spend money on them. I do not agree with keeping people in hospitals. There are some people who have been institutionalised in mental hospitals. They have been there for ten, 20 or 30 years. These people cannot be thrown out into the community. We have the revolving door syndrome and they are back again. If they are not re-admitted to the hospital they will end up in our prisons. That has happened in many cases because they are unable to take care of themselves when they are in society. Much harm has been done to them because they were institutionalised.

We must be very careful. We cannot say that we will merely clothe them. If we are to clothe them we must make proper provisions and provide proper halfway houses for them. We must see that they are properly cared for and the emphasis should be on this. They cannot be placed in hostels because they are not fit to take their place in the community unless under proper care. I would urge caution in this respect. Before we start moving with too much speed we might have consideration for the human beings concerned.

Our mental hospitals leave a lot to be desired. I was appalled to read that in one mental hospital they had decided to screen their patients to find out into what category of mental illness they would fall. This decision was only taken recently although many of those patients have been there for years. What galls me is the fact that they are only deciding this now. I cannot understand why the Department of Health cannot move in and ask why this was not done years ago. Surely these people are assessed regularly. Why were they there in the first place? Surely there was some diagnosis? Are there regular assessments? This calls into question the whole business of people in mental hospitals. Are we looking at this question properly? Perhaps many of those patients should not be there. I brought a case to the notice of the Minister for Health of a lady who had been in a hospital for many years. The hospital authorities said she was not fit to be out but she is no longer in hospital and is living well. There is something radically wrong with our mental hospitals. I would ask the Minister to look into this situation and see if anything can be done.

I would like to refer briefly to our dental services. I do not want to be unduly critical of everything but it is important to speak our minds on this project. Professor Kaim-Caudle said that our dental services are the worst in western Europe and I agree. Something positive must be done to provide a proper national dental health service. The idea of children in secondary schools not being able to have free dental services is very wrong.

I was delighted to hear what Deputy O'Malley had to say. I will be the first to see that the necessary court action is taken. I will explore that situation to see what can be done. It will give me great pleasure to talk about this when it comes before the Dáil. That was a most enlightening thought which came from that very good lawyer, Deputy O'Malley. It is important that something be done. This is a bad system. We must talk in terms of having a greater outflow of dental surgeons from our dental schools. We should move quickly with regard to the other dental hospital. We should provide the professions to give the service. As a matter of urgency, we should provide a free dental service for everyone of schoolgoing age. We should not stop at the primary schools because that is wrong.

The people at the other end of the scale—those needing dentures—also need help. The cost of dental service for those needing dentures can be prohibitive. A young student in St. Brendan's hospital needed special denture treatment. He was told that the cost would be £90. This was very essential treatment but his parents, who are very poor, had to pay for it out of their own pockets. This is very wrong.

To say that the dental service is available for medical card holders is not quite accurate. Elderly people often need emergency dental treatment. I know of many cases where they have to go to private dental surgeons. This money is not refunded. Provision should be made by the health board to reimburse them. I should like to hear the Minister talking in terms of a proper five-year programme for our dental services so that at the end we will have a dental service which will be second to none.

He knows how bad this service is because he has complained of it before. I hope he will be sympathetic towards producing a proper dental service.

Great strides have been made to help geriatric patients live in the community with proper care. In my view, we still have a blind spot so far as they are concerned. There is a difficulty in obtaining beds for these people. There is a move now, and I am keen on this idea, to have a geriatric unit attached to general hospitals because one cannot consider geriatric illness cases in isolation; geriatrics are part of the hospital services. It is only right that we should have such units attached to the general hospitals.

The only problem in this regard is that such units are too few. At St. Vincent's Hospital there is a 30-bed unit while at St. Laurence's Hospital there is also a 30-bed unit. The other major hospitals in the city should move quickly in this regard because our geriatric population is increasing. At St. James's Hospital they are reducing considerably the number of beds for geriatric patients. The number of beds has been reduced very much in recent times but there has not been any replacement. No other hospital has taken up this slack. The Department of Health should give attention to this and ensure that every hospital operating within the health service provides a proportion of their beds for geriatric cases with genuine illnesses and in need of hospital attention. The fact that such people are old does not mean that they will not have an illness which is untreatable. In my view we should be looking at this problem more urgently and not the question of the geriatric case in the community. This problem is a real headache for family doctors and we should be doing something about it.

There is discrimination against some geriatric patients admitted to hospitals. Although they may have medical cards there is a restriction on the treatment they receive. Unfortunately, there still prevails the question of limiting the period in which they can receive free treatment despite the fact that they have a medical card. This is unjust. These people, who are admitted for a specific illness, should not be asked to hand over their pension book to the health board. This should be looked at again. This could happen to anyone's father or mother. By virtue of the fact that such people hold a medical card they are entitled to free treatment when they go into hospital because they have an old age pension, they are told they can only have free treatment for so many weeks after which they must submit the pension book. That is discrimination. If one is 68 years of age one receives such treatment free but at 69 years one does not because one has the pension. That is wrong. I do not care what it costs, we should not discriminate against our senior citizens in this manner. Those most in need and who have given years of good service to the country should not be discriminated against. It is unjust and no Minister should tolerate or stand over it.

I should like to make an appeal to the Minister regarding the hospital out-patient waiting list. If officials of his Department consulted the hospitals with a view to improving the outpatient departments by providing proper diagnostic centres we could eliminate a lot of the hospital admissions and streamline the out-patient departments so that we would not have these big waiting lists. It only calls for a little co-ordination. If such discussion took place there is no reason why this could not be streamlined and the service that is necessary be provided. In my view this would have the effect of saving money for the Department of Health.

Referring again to the medical card patient I feel it is a hardship and injustice that so many people are not able to obtain a medical card, are not able to avail of this free treatment. This becomes all the more evident when it is realised that citizens of EEC member countries can receive free treatment here. Such citizens can come to this country on holiday and can have free treatment irrespective of what income they have in their own country. Unfortunately, in this regard the Irish citizen finds himself at a complete disadvantage in not being able to get this treatment. This is a source of grievance with Irish people. The injustice becomes all the more blatant when one sees that citizens of other countries while holidaying here can obtain this free treatment. The Minister should investigate the question of medical cards for our citizens. I am committed to the national health service. A proper service for our country would be a comprehensive health service including free hospitalisation. It is evident that there is only so much money in the kitty and it is not possible to provide everything at once but then one has to look for the priorities. To me the priorities are in the area of family doctor service. I should like to make it clear that I have no vested interest here, no interest whatever.

It is time we had this Bill on drug abuse. I am aware that it has been prepared and is ready but it would be a good idea if we got it soon. Drug abuse has not disappeared from the scene and because of this, and the dangers to the young people, it should be brought forward. The report which was published recently on this matter had nothing to say. I do not know for how long those who presented that report met but the report did not contain anything significant in the sense that it did not say anything that was not brought up before. The abuse of drugs is there. We know what the problem is and we know how to tackle it but we need the necessary legislation. For that reason I should like to see the legislation being introduced as soon as possible.

I should like to refer to the number of days spent by patients in hospitals. Deputy O'Malley has mentioned this already. Many patients after admission are not investigated until many days afterwards. As a result beds are being wasted and it is costing the State a considerable amount. All that is needed is proper co-ordination of services within a hospital. In the United States patients admitted at five in the afternoon, because the laboratory staff operate on shift work, can have their entire investigation concluded the following day. They found it necessary in the United States to do this to reduce costs and I do not see any reason why we could not have a similar system operating here. It only calls for a little co-ordination of the services within a hospital. However, it again emphasises the need for directives or guidelines from the Department of Health, and the Department should be prepared to issue them.

In 1961 I wrote to the then Minister for Health, Mr. McEntee, suggesting ways in which the bed occupancy could be reduced and I received a reply to the effect that he had no responsibility in the matter. That puzzled me. It has puzzled me to know why the Minister for Health has not responsibility in this matter.

Would the Deputy permit me to ask a question on that point because after all he is editor of the Medical Journal? Would the Deputy not think that there is a smell of factory about that sort of system in America? From my reading about this system, and from my knowledge, it is not all that shiny.

The person who goes in for investigation, as, indeed, the person who goes in for treatment, should not be detained in hospital longer than is necessary. It is not in the patient's interests to be there and it is a serious inconvenience to the patient and his family.

It is no pleasure to a patient to have to lie in hospital for many days. Were we to speak of the Russian health system, we would speak in terms of providing proper holiday places for these people. It should be the aim of the Department to ensure that the patient is not detained unnecessarily and to ensure also that the cost of the health services are reduced. The patient is the most important of all and his interests must be served first. His interests are not being served by being detained in hospital unnecessarily—speaking as someone who has worked in hospitals trying to have patients released—because a consultant does not come in. This is not right and the patient's interests are not being served by that practice.

First, we should try to co-ordinate our services in the hospitals so that we could have extensive laboratory tests and X-rays. Those departments closing at five o'clock in the day represents an enormous waste of resources. They should be maintained in use so that we reap the full benefit. There are long waiting lists for X-rays and other diagnostic services because we do not make proper use of such facilities. There should be a directive issued by the Department to the hospitals to utilise those services to the best advantage of the patient and of the State. If we could achieve this target, we could reduce the number of days spent by patients in hospitals; we could ensure a greater flow of bed vacancies which in turn would relieve the situation. We have limited resources and we should be putting them to the best possible use. Were we to do that, we would be serving some purpose.

The last point I wanted to make is in relation to the role of the Department of Health. The Department cover a very wide area indeed. The regional health boards have served in ensuring a devolution of power from the Department. I do not know whether they have an advantage over the original county council schemes. They have not proved their worth to me at least. I wonder if it is possible to undertake an evaluation of the cost of these vis-à-vis the old county council schemes. It would be interesting to see what has happened, what streamlining has been done. It is up to the Department to justify this, and to show how these boards have helped. They certainly have not convinced me, as a member of a regional health board, that they have served the purpose for which they were intended. They were set up in order to have a devolution of power from the Department and greater involvement in the community. I do not think they are achieving those ends. I think they are very cumbersome; and little is being achieved by them. With the exception of the Western Health Board I do not think anything is being done. Therefore, we may have to have a rethink on this. There are so many different grades—managers, programme managers and so on. I wonder what is happening. It is time the Department took a look at this aspect and issued a document on the subject detailing what these health boards are doing and in what way they have improved the health services. Perhaps these regional health boards need modification. But the onus is on the Department to say so and also to state the advantages of these boards. We read the original McKinsey Report. Now that the regional health boards have been in operation for a few years, let us examine their achievements and let the public be told because they want to know.

The involvement of the Minister and of his Department in protracted discussions with different health personnel—I understand that something like 70 per cent of their time is involved in these negotiations, because it is a regular cycle; as soon as one round of negotiations has been completed there is another coming up for consideration—absorbs too much precious time. Were there to be a separate body set up to investigate these matters it would save them an enormous amount of time. It would leave the Minister and the Department free to concentrate on health policies. There is perpetual wrangling about increases in salaries. This is bound to continue but at present it is absorbing too much of the Minister's time and that of his Department. It is time something positive was done in that respect. Otherwise, I do not see any possibility of a proper policy emanating from the Department of Health, and each regional health board will continue to operate in their own way without any co-ordination. I would have thought it the duty of the Department of Health to co-ordinate the work of the regional health boards, formulate policy and let the regional health boards apply it in their areas. Certainly, I cannot see sufficient evidence of that at present. The Department have been thrown into a morass in regard to the hospital building programme, the question of the upgrading of hospitals, of free hospitalisation and so on, which leaves a lot to be desired.

Perhaps the Minister would take a closer look at the whole situation and investigate the provisions of new powers for the Department of Health, when we might have an overall health policy in the best interests of the people.

It was interesting to listen to Deputy O'Connell and other speakers in this debate. I have been reading the Minister's introductory speech. In his period of office, by and large, it could be said he has shown concern for many groups in the community. Apart from any political differences we might have—whether or not they extend to medicine—no great fault can be found with the Minister's concern for the care of people in the community who most need it and who cannot provide it for themselves.

The remarks made by the Minister with regard to the care of the aged, the extension of medicine to this group and the concentration of more attention to people in the upper age bracket will be welcomed by everybody in this House. On the small budget within which we have to operate in any year it is very difficult to find enough money in the kitty with which to proceed in relation to both aspects of the health system. Indeed, many complaints could be levelled here and there about it, especially, I suppose, with regard to the GMS end of the scheme. When complaints are made in a generalised way it is difficult to pin down the reasons giving rise to those complaints. By that I mean that I think it will be generally agreed that the general practitioners at present who are practising under the general medical services end of the scheme— those of them who have a genuine interest—are fairly hard-pressed.

I have in mind here a report of a survey which was carried out by Henry Kelly and Mary Maher of The Irish Times. At the time I read it and cut it out. It is carried in the issue of 30th October last. Those people went around to the various centres and discussed those matters with the practitioners concerned. This is like a person going to a shop window and looking in at something. Even though that person's mind may not be well trained to whatever subject he is pursuing, he can often see faults in that particular thing which sometimes those who work with it cannot see. We might be in error if we generalise too much about health or if we try to isolate or identify certain problems which arise in the system. It is very hard to generalise in health and it is very hard to identify and pinpoint the causes of some of the complaints.

In general there is pressure on the general practitioner, on the Minister and there is also pressure on the patient. It is admitted that the patient is the most important person in medicine. We all like to think that, whatever health system we have, it will in the last analysis always keep the patient in mind. I say that in the knowledge that all of us at different times call for improvement in the various sectors of our health services. Some of us want better hospitals, others want greater improvement in the general medical services and some look for improvements in the auxiliary and supporting services. However one has to remember that we work on restricted means. I suppose our means will only expand with greater efforts in the economic sector. One always has to have regard to where the money will come from.

Deputy O'Connell spoke about American hospitals. One could eulogise the system there too much and magnify it into a mountain when in fact it is not like that at all. He spoke about the duration of an in-patient in hospital. We would all like to see a rational system of bed occupancy, but that is not easy to achieve. The system whereby the patient goes in today, has his complaint diagnosed tonight, undergoes an operation, for example, in the morning and makes his exit from the hospital in a couple of days is not a system of medicine which should be lauded too much. It should be left to the surgeon and the physician in charge of the patient to decide the length of time that patient stays in hospital.

Some people who have returned from America have told me they prefer our health system, slow and all as it is supposed to be. The day we separate the doctor from the patient, the day he just becomes a cog in the wheel and the day we try to depersonalise him, that is the day our system will be ruined because a hospital is not a factory. It should not be an assembly line or an escalator leading to the door. That is my answer to the point made by Deputy O'Connell and also allowing for the fact that he is editor of The Medical Times.

The Deputy qualified his remarks by saying that we should always ensure there is a reasonable bed turnover. What is a reasonable bed turnover? It is up to the physician and the surgeon dealing with the patient to know what it is. People in charge of hospitals can only turnover the beds in relation to how well or how sick a patient may be or how he responds to treatment in any given circumstances. I hope our hospitals will never turn into factories because none of us would like to see that happen.

I should like to come back to the general medical services and to the survey which was carried out. I should like to refer particularly to the article in The Irish Times of 30th October, page 12. There is a little synopsis of an interview with GPs and also a short extract from a spokesman for the Medical Union.

In our deliberations here, whether we support the Government or the Opposition, we should take as broad a look as possible of a matter like health. We should always have reference to the people who work the scheme and who live very closely with it. At any rate, the spokesman for the Medical Union recently said that the threatened withdrawal of doctors from the State health service would not mean undue hardship for the public since people would still have their family doctors. The report states:

The query is raised, what is the family doctor now? There is a story, probably an invention, of two Dublin women who met each Monday at their doctor's surgery where their circumstances permit them free treatment, Mrs. A and Mrs. B, for two weeks. Mrs. B explains on the third Monday: "Sure I could not come the last fortnight, I was sick."

The report goes on:

There is another study, not an invention, of a Dublin doctor who took the chair out of the surgery because he didn't want the patients sitting down and taking up time. Does any avuncular man with the bedside manner, an endless supply of wisdom and personal concern for his patients still exist—the man who has walked straight out of the BBC's Doctor Finlay's Casebook, leaving only Scotland, his early Ford and the moors behind, but bringing with him all that reassurance, or is he a sullen operator in an increasing bureaucratic setup where he cannot even perform the function he was trained for adequately?

It continues:

The Department of Health and Social Welfare appear to be uncertain whether or not it wants a full national health service. Perhaps it is time Irish families decided whether or not it is worth keeping the service of a private family doctor.

I am afraid I did not quote that very well but I will provide a copy in case I was remiss. It sums up the split sort of mind we have in this whole matter. Are we on the one hand to have State medicine from cradle to grave which, in view of the English experience, we cannot afford anyway, or are we on the other hand to have a selective scheme? I use that phrase deliberately because if you have barriers in a scheme it must be selective? Are we to continue to treat 34 per cent or 35 per cent of our population in the general medical service end of the scheme, possibly a growing number every year, or are we to go flat out, which we will not be able to do anyway, to cater for the full 100 per cent?

It is time we had an announcement on this from the Minister. He confused me last spring, with all good intentions. I have no doubt, when he said we were to have greater numbers for free hospitalisation. That confused me because it followed a change in the administration of the system from county to regional level. When I read the announcement I thought it was precipitous in view of the rising costs and what we have come to know as the demon inflation—because of general increasing costs of hospitalisation.

There is no end of the health scheme which will take up as much money as the hospital end. Health has a very intensified labour content. We harp about providing the highest comforts for the patient, the best nursing, the best GP service, the best surgery. In view of that there is confusion in this area. It is not easy to define in our present system who should be in the lower, the middle or the upper end of the scheme, particularly in the lower end where there are free medical practitioner and hospital services. This is the end of the scheme most people try to gravitate to. It is a human weakness that if there is something free we all like to be in on it. Therefore we must redefine our aims in this respect.

I am asking the Minister, or his Parliamentary Secretary who has been doing quite well, the following question: Should we not concentrate on redefining our aspirations towards medicine, rather than wishing for something we cannot attain, namely, 100 per cent free treatment for the community in all branches of medicine? In view of the experience of the British and others, regrettably I submit we shall never reach that point.

There has been a reference to the general medical services. If we are to take it as it is presently working, certainly there is room for improvement in some areas. This would be a matter primarily for the health boards; since the introduction of the boards they have received the best leadership from the Custom House. The county clinics represent the health boards and because there has been a shift in personnel and in emphasis it has taken some people a long time to understand the position despite the fact that the county clinics provide all the information necessary by way of leaflets and personal interview. Nevertheless there is a kind of love-hate relationship between certain sections of the community and the regional health system. Admittedly in our desire to keep down administrative costs and to have a more efficient system we may have gone too fast. I I do not think we saved all that much money but I am not for a moment finding fault with the regional system. It has come to stay and we must have it.

One of the principal people involved is, of course, the general practitioner. We have heard much lately about the young doctors but I am rather sick of the attitude of some of them. When we consider the amount we spend on education in relation to our resources, I think the younger doctors should get it into their minds that they should work for a while in their own country. The moment they qualify many of them want to go away. Some say it is to gain experience but I wonder if they really gain all that experience. It frequently happens that they return here and stay in the country for some time and then they depart again.

I have always considered the general practitioner to be a very important personality in the community and he still has a large part to play in the system. It would be a pity if we departed from that tradition. Medicine is very much involved in this and I could prove that had I the time and if I were allowed to stray from the area of the general medical services. It should be brought home to the young people who are attending medical schools that they have an obligation to their own country. They should be told that there is as good a skill here in surgery and other branches of medicine as any other country in the world. However, we have not all the modern aids we would like and we may not have the type of training school we would like.

The physician, no less than the surgeon, is a very important person in the community. We have heard much about pay and conditions but it is not money that makes the man. That is what is wrong with too many of the younger doctors: they go for the big money abroad but money is not medicine. They should be made to realise, if not by their families who educate them but by others, that they have a chance in their own country. We need them now but we have not got them. At present we are not able to get young GPs to stay in the rural communities, to live at a reasonable distance from their patients.

The general practitioner is called on today to cast himself in too many roles, he is asked to wear too many hats. This is unfortunate. We have heard of the problems with regard to alcoholism and drug abuse; regrettably, a great proportion of layabouts and winos are the victims. These problems should be considered from the sociological point of view. We have trained social workers who can help. The GP today is preoccupied and pestered with the theme of psychiatry. I have been told recently by people who do not normally complain of or comment on general conditions here —and I know from experience what they have said is true—that we have a problem with regard to drug abuse. But the GP should not be called on in his dispensary to advise on matters of a psychiatric nature but he should have available to him at reasonable call the services of a psychiatrist. That is why I am glad to see a reference in the Minister's speech to the provisions of better training in psychiatry.

I remember, while reading Freud first some 35 years ago, a GP snatching the book from my hand and telling me it should be burned. Although they may not admit it, those in the medical field have now reached the stage that they are studying psychiatry in a very wide sense. In the days of which I am speaking the man who dared to speak of the theory of mind over matter stood in poor regard with GPs. However they have come a long way in the meantime and I suppose we have also.

A GP who is called on to see as many as 52 patients in a day is certainly being overloaded and should only be required to see, perhaps, 30 or fewer patients in a day. One of our aims in the Blue Book was to have better medical schools, better training and a supply from each university to the medical faculty of the brightest in education. Unfortunately we have not been able to progress as we would like in this direction. I am not blaming this on any sector of the Department of Health. But if we are beset by chronics at the GPs' dispensaries and if, as was said here, the doctors must remove chairs in order to prevent patients from staying too long, there is something wrong indeed. There is something wrong, too, if a GP must see an abnormal number of patients in a given time. There may be greater problems than these, but these are ones that cannot be overlooked.

If we are to do better in this regard we must help and give better leadership to the GPs. It is said sometimes that GPs are interested only in money. Maybe that is true in so far as some of them are concerned, but more money does not mean better medicine. What is important in dealing with people is the basic interest that the GP has in his profession. That is what makes for good medicine. Until it is realised that the ideal is that the GP should reside in his community and should know his people, that he would seem to be a leader of thought, as it were, in common with others in the community, we will not get the sort of treatment we are hoping for under the health services.

It is for the various health boards to endeavour to develop a system like this. It is a sad aspect of our society today that the younger people prefer to go where the bright lights are rather than to remain in rural communities. Some of the older doctors in rural Ireland, whose fathers and grandfathers before them had practices in the same areas, could boast of advances in medicine. They knew their patients, not only those with whom they were dealing at any time but they knew the generations that went before.

As well as psychiatry, psychology and philosophy we should have a certain regard for tradition. It is popular to say today that we are all socialists to some extent, that we should all be aiming at equality in this field, but not all are equal in so far as medical practitioners are concerned. However that is a very wide subject into which I shall not go now. The GP who lives in his community, who is interested in his profession and who knows his patients is the man I would look up to. It would be regrettable that we should ever reach the stage when there will be nothing more than a mechanical exercise involved in the relationship between a GP and his patient or that a patient will be regarded merely as another statistic. That would not be medicine, psychology or philosophy. Such a development, although it might make for more economy, would never contribute anything to medicine.

In so far as the general medical services are concerned. I shall not go into any figures because the Parliamentary Secretary has at his fingertips a lot more figures than I have here, but I would emphasise that the nearer we can get to bringing the GP to the status of a family doctor the better. That may entail some reduction of the GPs output in economic terms. However it would be well worth while in the long term, not only in economic terms but in other terms also. If, as is common belief today, a doctor's time in a dispensary is absorbed in endeavouring to talk his patients into a state of health, there should be more emphasis on psychology.

Regarding all these questions of hospitalisation, of the status of the family doctor and so on, I would hope that we would not be too keen to follow the trend of other countries. While it might be all right for us to follow them in some respects, we should have regard for our own way of life and for the temperament of the community in which we are living and also for the problems which are affecting people at present. I suppose it can be said that we are all somewhat starry-eyed when there is a change in the system in a State Department. I have been thinking about the days of the Fitzgerald Report on hospitalisation. Having read and reread reports one could agree with every line of it. The people who were involved on that commission were all eminent persons. They all had the interests of medicine, surgery and hospitalisation at heart.

It is a pity that we had not the wherewithal to follow up the hospitalisation end more quickly but building is a problem and we must make-do and mend. It is easier to make-do and mend in the general medical service end of the scheme than in the hospital end because there is no substitute for a hospital. Our aim at that time was to have regional hospitals of certain dimensions, well staffed with laboratory and other facilities available and to have a faculty of medicine from whichever university they wished to use, the personnel available. We were not able to proceed with the hospitalisation scheme because, unfortunately, each year costs continued to increase and there were continuing calls for improvement in the GMS end of the scheme. There were also persistent calls from the personnel working the scheme for better conditions.

In England they have had problems for a long time with the personnel in their Department of Health despite the fact that the late Lord Beveridge drew up a scheme which in the end, I think, he admitted was not successful. That is why I refer back very briefly to what I said earlier, that we should redefine our aims in health in regard to hospitalisation and state flatly who is eligible, who is not, who will have to pay and who will not.

Here is a significant booklet which is also the report of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board which was mentioned by Deputy O'Malley and other speakers. It is a sign of the times when the VHI Board which, in my experience worked very economically through the years through an excellent scheme which was well administered, goes into debt. This should be a warning for us. Earlier, I had hoped we would be able to extend the activities of the VHI to cover those who would not be eligible under other systems we have. Regrettably, the roll of contributors or members of the VHI did not grow in proportion to the increasing affluence of the population. When one looks at the cost of providing for oneself under the VHI scheme and compares it with the amount being spent on drink, gambling or drugs one might conclude that we need a psychiatrist. I have always regarded the contribution to this board as a good investment. I think that is still so and will continue to be so. Therefore, I think we should re-define eligibility under the health service and I should like this to be done. I think we must retain the GMS scheme which perhaps, we could expand. Perhaps we may have to contract it. We shall have to keep the mid-income group; I see no better way. Let the upper end be catered for by a voluntary system. This does not involve any hardship by way of contribution.

There is, and I suppose always will be, a conflict of views on health since it is such an important element in our society. Deputy O'Connell spoke of preventive medicine. I agree fully with him and all the points I have tried to make regarding the GMS end of the scheme add up to preventive medicine. But I think we should find a way in preventive medicine of dealing with chronic cases and psychiatric cases. The general practitioner's time should not have to be spent in dealing with those people and we should have trained psychiatrists attending the clinics and more of them. That would mean more money but in view of the present trend I think it would be worthwhile.

Doctors spend too much time filling forms. They are medical practitioners, not form fillers, and steps should be taken in each health board area to relieve the general practitioners of form filling. These men were trained to be physicians and should be physicians. The more experience they get and the more varied the better.

There is a large amount of advertising concerning preventive medicine already but a good deal of this seems to go unheeded. We do not seem to have any diminution of drinking or any great reduction in smoking. Alcohol and tobacco are two of the most offensive drugs at present. I smoke myself and try to do so in moderation but from my own personal observation alcohol and tobacco have put more people in their graves than I could count. It would be very interesting if there was a survey to see how many died as a result of poisoning from drink and tobacco. I do not mean that we should be all plaster saints; we could have these things in moderation. We are told in the bible that wine was made to cheer the heart of man. It was not meant to be a drug or a poison but that is what it is being made by abnormal consumption in the case of some people. The same, I suppose, can be said for tobacco, although I am not so sure one can tamper with it. One either goes on it or goes off it.

I want to say a word about community care. The Minister described it as the primary medical and paramedical service. We have made some progress here but we should be able to do a good deal more, even voluntarily. People are preoccupied with the idea that the State can provide for a person from cradle to grave. This is far from true. It is regrettable that we do not have more voluntary help in the field of community care. We have trained social workers in each area but we should have, built around them an expanding medical care council. We have here an enormous demand for home care for the upper age group. If old people can continue to live at home, all the better. The "meals on wheels" idea is an excellent one, but I should like to see more voluntary service rendered in this field. I should like to see more people who spend too much time on shallow pleasure devoting some time to helping people in their homes. I think if we asked young people and kept after them we could get more help in this area.

There is a growing tendency to do that.

I agree. I hope it will continue to grow. I can see improvements in that regard. A man of 80 or 85 years, with the best will in the world, will not cater for himself although he may be able to work. I know of a man who was working hard and after a little persuasion took a hot meal each day. One would not know that man inside three months once he had someone to cook for him.

The Deputy has five minutes left.

This is in the field of preventive medicine. We should all encourage community care. By doing so we will keep older people out of hospital. The tendency for them is to go in. All those auxiliary services can help to prevent the overflow in hospitals and thus provide for a more rational bed system.

I shall address myself to a specific problem. A long time ago a satirist said that indignation produced poetry. Unfortunately, I am not a poet and consequently will not be able to produce a satire no matter how liberal you are with me with regard to time.

I have in mind the case of the hospital in Cavan town. I see in the document which the Minister has circulated, and it is something I expected, that it starts off with Dublin, moves on to Cork and then moves on to Limerick—an indication of giganticism in thinking in the Department, a disease which is prevalent in all Departments. I am not making a special case. The position in Cavan is extremely serious. I am not a barrister with a brief making the best case possible about the position there. The position there makes its own case and the position is a serious one. The Minister says that his aim is to develop a community-based health and welfare system which will eventually take the pressure off the hospitals. This is a sound approach. He also says that his objective is to develop a national network of efficient, first-class general hospitals and then the community-based health and welfare system to back up those hospitals. The thinking is good. The system will take the pressure off hospitals, but he is committed to providing a network of good general hospitals.

The Minister is aware that the Fitzgerald Report recommended a regional hospital for Cavan town. He is also aware that Cavan town is in the North-Eastern Health Board area. Monaghan, Louth, Meath and Cavan are the four counties in that area. The North-Eastern Health Board, with representatives from that area, attending, considered the report, discussed the report and came down on the side of the report's recommendation—in other words, that this hospital be sited in Cavan town. I speak subject to correction on this but I think Comhairle na nOspidéal accepted the recommendation also. Visitors to that hospital are on record as saying that the situation in Cavan should have priority. The situation there is extremely grave. There are people working there under the most abominable conditions. The surgical hospital has been condemned for quite a long time. The fact that highly skilled surgical work has been performed there over the years in appalling conditions is no reason why the situation should be allowed to continue.

Debate adjourned.
Top
Share