It would appear from the Minister's speech that up to £14 million is the loss which has been incurred by CIE during a period of nine months. We are given to understand that the greater part of that loss was incurred by the rail section of CIE. Is there any hope that this ever-escalating increase in the amount of the loss being incurred, for whatever reasons, can be minimised and ultimately wiped out, or are we to continue to accept year by year ever-increasing losses and therefore ever-increasing subventions from the taxpayers? Is it not about time that we were given an overall picture of where we are going in regard to our transport system?
We have the rather unusual situation—and this does not apply only to this State body but to other undertakings as well, some of which come under the aegis of Minister's Department—in which the taxpayer is being asked for an ever-increasing contribution towards the provision of what can only be regarded as an essential service and money is being provided by a large number of taxpayers who can never hope in any way to gain anything from the service which they are being called upon to subsidise year in and year out at an ever-increasing rate.
There are people in far-flung and remote areas from Dublin, such as my own County Donegal, who pay their share through the normal taxation codes towards this and other subventions and devices for the provision of transport within the country, and outside the country through another State body, and in respect of which they are getting no service whatsoever, nor is there any likelihood that they ever will. Because of our remoteness we require an improved transport service more than anybody else.
The Minister referred to his intentions, and perhaps his obligation, with regard to the EEC regulations. Can we expect anything worthwhile to emerge in the future? The Minister said:
These EEC Regulations are merely part of a comprehensive structure which is being built up in the development of a Community Common Transport Policy. One of the aims of this policy is to eliminate disparities liable to distort conditions of competition in the transport market and for this purpose it is necessary to harmonise laws, regulations and administrative provisions relating to transport.
Does this give any hope to those who are inadequately serviced at the moment by way of transport? Does it give any promise that, in the not-too-far-distant future, they will be recompensed for their contributions over the years to a service from which they gain nothing? I refer to the areas not served by air and not served by rail. If not, the Minister is, unwittingly, perhaps, perpetrating an injustice which has been increasing year by year so far as people from remote areas are concerned. He should seriously examine and consider what he proposes to do to provide a proper transport system for all the people.
For a number of years Donegal has been isolated apart from transport by road. I remember the day on which a little function was held to inaugurate the express bus service linking Donegal with Dublin. It was admitted at that function by the then chairman of CIE that the coaches being provided were not the type envisaged for the future. I suggested publicly that steps should be taken to provide the best possible long distance coaches for the areas where people depend solely on road transport. Despite the added difficulties and delays now caused by cross-Border checks on the way to and from Donegal and Dublin there has not been any improvement. The coaches are no better than those running between here and Bray. We have no better facilities.
No consideration is given to providing toilet accommodation. The people are not served with light refreshments by a steward or stewardess. At this stage in our history that is the minimum to which we are entitled in areas such as Donegal because of our remoteness and because of the difficulties created at cross-Border checks where there are delays lasting for hours. I strongly appeal to the Minister to give this matter serious and urgent consideration and to give us coaches second to none with proper on-board services which would be of great convenience and comfort to long distance travellers who have no alternative to that service.
The delays at the cross-Border checks can run from half-an-hour to an hour-and-a-half or even two hours. It is not good enough to say: "There is toilet accommodation in Monaghan when you get there, if you do", or: "We will be stopping at Lifford or Strabane or Letterkenny when we get there, if we do." This has aggravated the situation but does not, in itself, constitute the reason why I raised this matter. I raised this matter on the day of the inauguration of this service and I was given promises then, publicly, that an attempt would be made to do what I was seeking. Many years have gone by but nothing has been done. In fact the provision of coaches, at times when additional coaches are required, is worse than when the service was first provided.
All of this is not being provided for nothing or anything like it. A single ticket from Donegal to Dublin costs £4.50 which is a very hefty sum. A taxi or licensed mini-bus can be chartered and ply to Dublin for less than that, and at a profit. I can only assume that, with the much bigger vehicle CIE provide, and it is quite a common practice for them to have to supplement the single bus by an additional two, it is a profitable run. Those people who are dependent solely on this link as their public transport system are not only providing sufficient to cover a proper, good, comfortable and convenient service but are, in addition, paying, as all taxpayers are paying, for the losses being incurred mainly on the rail system from which no benefit accrues to the county, its trade, its commerce or its people.
Nobody can tell me that what is provided at Sligo, and the distribution freight depot there, is the answer. It is not. I am not being cynical or sarcastic when I say that the advertisement: "Anything, Anywhere, Any Time" as is depicted on hoardings is not well-intentioned but in so far as its application to servicing my county is concerned it is a joke, very often a sour joke. For some reason we can lose freight and, after weeks, it may be located at Sligo. If it is found it must be taken by road almost as far again north, if one wants to go to the very northern part of the county which some of this freight must do; almost as far again as from Dublin to Sligo. It is 132 miles from Dublin to Sligo by road and it is almost 150 miles from Sligo to the point of Malin Head. This is something which never seems to get into the minds of the people who operate any type of service or are providing any sort of service. Sligo is only half way between Dublin and the northern part of Donegal but there is a sort of acceptance by various official agencies, and Government Departments, that the north-west, embracing Sligo, takes in Donegal and the hinterland immediately around. In fact, Sligo is nearer Dublin than it is to the northern part of Donegal.
The system, and the service we are getting for our freight transport and public transport for passengers, is not anything that we can be proud of. We cannot point to it and say that the best is being done. This is not so. No effort is being made to provide what I believe is the only true additional supplement to that road transport, an air service of a proper kind, but that is another day's work. I mention this in passing because of the obligation that would appear to rest upon the Minister in conforming to EEC regulations which, as I have quoted, are for the development of a Community Common Transport Policy. If there is to be a common transport policy I take it that all our citizens should be as near equal as possible. Transport provided by CIE is not equal in so far as many of our people are concerned. Certainly, it is far from being near equal as far as Donegal and the people there are concerned.
The practice over the years has been that while, through the Minister's good offices and his own goodwill, he may give various pieces of information to the House that provides the money from the taxpayer to meet CIE losses there is not available to the Minister, or to the House, the right to get the information in detail. There should be an obligation on CIE to provide this information to the Minister for the benefit of the representatives of the people, the Members of this House. This is a weakness that is not of the present Minister's creation. It started a long time ago, has grown in importance over the years as the amounts of subvention have increased, and are likely to continue to increase. When this was begun no detailed accounting was necessary to the House nor was there any obligation resting on the Minister to furnish the House with detailed information. That may have been understandable at the outset but the passage of time, and the increasing amounts being demanded, have altered that outlook. It should be reviewed and there should be an obligation on the Minister to be answerable to this House for every pound spent, every pound which is contributed through the subventions provided by the taxpayer and voted and agreed to by this House.
This is not the only body, nor is the Department of Transport and Power the only Department, which would need to have a look at this situation. I urge the Minister for Transport and Power to look at this matter urgently, to change the system and to wipe out the situation where millions can be called for, millions may be granted and there is no real obligation on either the board in question or the Minister to account to this House who provide the money in the name of the people and out of the pockets of the people.
It is strange to find that, according to the Minister's speech and the records available, we have this continuing increase in the losses of CIE while, at the same time, it is pointed out that passenger numbers are, and have been, increasing, that freight, even though the percentage may be small, also shows an increase. However, the losses of the company show a substantial increase. The Minister has indicated that quite a substantial input of capital is envisaged in order to conform with the recommendations of the McKinsey Report, to update and to make more efficient—we hope—the operation of many depots. While we may brighten them up and may make them, in themselves, more efficient and more "with it" the question is, will the expenditure of this additional capital money not only bring us up-to-date and modernise our various depots but will the ultimate effect of such additional capital expenditure result in any true savings, in greater efficiency and greater economy in the running of the undertaking? If it does not, we have got to ask ourselves: is there any point in spending these amounts of capital unless there is a long-term advantage to be gained therefrom? I wonder whether this has been examined to the degree it should be, whether the Minister's advisers and, ultimately, he will be fully satisfied—and eventually the Government satisfied—that the provision of this additional capital expenditure will result in any real saving and improvement of the service regarded as essential.
I question also the whole approach to our transport system in that while we are not providing, certainly for large tracts of the country, anything like the sort of service present-day conditions demand, we seem to ignore completely the only alternative available, which is private transport. Private transport supplementing the public transport system in the more remote areas is all that is available. When I say that, I mean road transport, public and private, are the only two types of transport available to large tracts of the country very remote from where we are now discussing this matter. Have the Government taken this into consideration? Have they given any importance whatsoever to the question of aiding and helping the provision of that supplement—if such it can be called, I am not sure—of private transport? Will the Minister—indeed, he may have to get other Ministers and Departments to play their part—improve much more speedily the roads being used in remote parts?
Has the Minister had any real say in regard to recent increases—and I do not mean last night's increase— which have a very severe impact on private transport essential in supplementing public transport in the more remote areas? Has the Minister a say in the field of insurance? If not, I believe he should have a very definite say, even though it is immediately within the ambit of his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to set or agree to increases in that respect. I say this not in any argumentative way. We come to this House looking for vast sums to subsidise our transport undertaking as an essential and national service. The Minister responsible in requiring the House to provide these moneys in order that such a transport service may continue to operate should have an absolute say in what is done and which may have an impact on the adjunct to that public transport in the more remote areas where no alternative exists, such as rail or air, services. I would strongly urge that the Minister should have a very big say in such matters. I would say also that the Minister for Transport and Power should receive backing in so far as he might have a very definite say, for instance, in the matter before us last evening of an increase in the price of petrol.
All of these things together amount to a very substantial sum of additional expenditure necessarily incurred by those living in the more remote areas that are not and, perhaps, cannot be served adequately by public transport but in respect of which those people are paying their share by way of taxation in order to provide the subventions we are regularly called upon to vote and pay to CIE and other semi-State bodies.
The Minister for Transport and Power must have a say also if we are to harmonise—this is, indeed, his expressed intention—and arrive at a common transport policy. Without a very definite and specific say in all of those related matters which have an impact and impinge on the overall cost of private transport, his efforts in providing an adequate or fair distribution of public transport cannot be truly satisfied. Those two things are so complementary to each other that the Minister requires to be given an absolute right in this matter if not equal to then next to the responsibility vested in the various Ministers, such as the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance in the two instances I have given. There is the other—this would be for the Minister for Finance through the Revenue Commissioners —under which 75 per cent of the on-the-floor garage cost of any passenger vehicle, whether a private saloon, minibus or other, is accounted for by the imposition of import duties, taxes and VAT. Lest I have not put that clearly, let me put it another way. A car landed on a garage floor today at, say, £1,600 costs £2,800 with the addition of duties. Surely, that is another matter of striking significance in the cost of transport to people in the more remote areas whom the Minister may not, despite his best efforts and those of CIE, be able to serve adequately by public transport. Insurance cover, fuel and import duties constitute three very large items in the cost of vehicles, the parts, the knock-down value, whatever one likes to call them. An imposition of 75 per cent by way of duties, taxes and so on is added to the price of the vehicle the ordinary person because of lack of public service or other reason is obliged to buy in order to provide transport for himself for business or other purpose. And here I am speaking again about the deprived people of the more remote areas who either are not getting or cannot get an adequate service although they are being asked to contribute their full share by way of taxation as voted by us in subventions to undertakings such as CIE.
If he is to grapple with the difficult problem of a national transport system, I feel the Minister should and must have a very definite, official say in the fixing of any of these increases whether they relate to insurance, import duties, VAT, petrol or any other fuel. He must have such a say if there is to be any sense in his being given the responsibility he carries at present of having under his wing the national transport undertaking, namely, CIE. This is fundamental and, indeed, elementary to the proper co-ordination of the two methods of approaching the provision of very necessary transport. and to endeavouring to equate the availability of transport services to all our citizens at a reasonable cost while not leaning too heavily on those for whom the service is worst. It is not fair that the people who get the worst service are those who must pay most. The further away from growth centres that people are, the more they need transport but the more meagre are the services provided in those places because of the difficulties involved. Yet the Government continue to penalise those for whom a private motor vehicle is the only means of transport available. From the day a car is purchased there are continuous demands on the owner not only in respect of fuel but also in respect of all the other elements involved in the running of a car. Whether a car is assembled here or is imported already assembled there is a massive amount of duty involved. The Minister for Transport and Power does not have any say in such matters other than his say as a member of the Government in general. He should have a specific say because he is responsible in a very definite way for transport within the country. The only authority he has is to carry the baby although he has no say in what the baby is doing or how it is being nurtured. We cannot talk of the provision of a national transport system without recognising the true situation that no matter what the Minister may do, there will continue to be a very heavy leaning on private transport so as to supplement public transport.
I appeal to the Minister to think seriously on these points. No doubt this House would at any time be much in favour of empowering the Minister to play a very specific role in what is now the preserve of a number of his colleagues, a situation that may be said to have developed historically rather than by design. It is time that situation was changed and that the Minister for Transport and Power was charged with the responsibility of providing a transport system throughout the country.
The Minister spoke about proposals for a new subvention structure for CIE to comply with the provisions of the EEC regulations and he told us that these proposals have been submitted to the EEC Commission and that arrangements are being made for their introduction from the 1st January, 1975. There is a sense of urgency in this matter because if there is to be a real facing up to the situation of serving as equitably as possible the needs of all our people, there is not much time at the disposal of the Minister if he is to meet the deadline on which the new structure is due to come into operation. While it may not be necessary to have everything in detail by then I expect that since the proposals are before the EEC Commission, the die may already have been cast. If there is to be any real attempt to rectify the injustices that are being wrought on some of our citizens because of the remote areas in which they live, I suggest that the Minister add to the submissions that are before the Commission because if we start on the wrong foot in regard to this new subvention and structure, it is likely that those Deputies who come after us will be talking, too, of the grievances that I am endeavouring to expose today. Now is the time to do everything possible to improve the situation, to up-date it to meet present day needs rather than to be relying on what has become a sort of traditional exercise which began on the basis of different circumstances from those in which we live today and which was never tailored to meet the needs of today's situation.
Is there any way whereby the Minister might devise a scheme of special assistance that would be aimed at reducing the cost of transport from areas such as I have mentioned? It costs £4.10p to travel to Dublin on the Donegal express. That is for a single ticket. This fare could be reduced with justification as a result of the new subvention structure and this structure, too, could be used to supplement the ferry service for passengers to many of the islands off our coasts. I applaud the manner in which these services are being provided and I hope they will be increased. In any case, every effort should be made to reduce the cost of public transport from far away areas. The people concerned are dependent totally on the bus service which often is inadequate and not as comfortable or as convenient as it might be.
Another suggestion I would put to the Minister might be the means of effecting some saving in costs to passengers travelling from the extreme north-west. There is the ludicrous situation whereby the Derry to Dublin express runs twice a day on weekdays while a Letterkenny-Dublin express runs also twice a day on week-days and once on Sundays. The point I wish to make is that both Letterkenny and Derry are of equal distance from Strabane, that both services go through Strabane and start at intervals of only ten minutes apart. Surely it would not be beyond the ingenuity and the spirit of co-operation that exists and which was in existence long before Sunningdale, to mesh these two services so that instead of having two departures from Letterkenny and two from Derry with only ten minutes in the difference in the departure times from each terminus, there would be four services, leaving at regular intervals and starting alternately from Derry and Letterkenny with a feeder line in respect of each service from Strabane to Letterkenny or Strabane to Derry as the case may be. In this way the services from both Letterkenny and Derry would be improved substantially.
If, however, it should be found that during some periods in the year, four services daily would not be justified, it would not be necessary to run the four buses. In this way a saving would be effected. There is no need for the present situation because the route taken by both services from Strabane to Dublin is exactly the same.
I would ask the Minister to examine that suggestion. Perhaps he would take it up with the Ulsterbus people to see what could be done not only in the interests of an improved service but in the interests of the more economic operation of the service which, whether it comes from Derry or Letterkenny, serves the extreme north-west. Without impinging on any part of the subvention being sought here, we might be able to afford to improve the service, improve the type of coach and improve the on-board service which is essential in these days on that length of journey, and particularly because of the long delays that are occasioned quite frequently at the Border at present.
Without appearing to have any particular grouse about it, might I ask the Minister to examine the manner in which these delays occur and the fact that people are left standing on the roads for as long as an hour-and-a-half. While the coaches are unloaded while the passengers and their luggage and the coaches themselves are being searched, there must be some way in which the people can get shelter from the weather, particularly in the wintertime but even in the sort of summers we have had. Many people have suffered after this experience with colds and 'flu and some people I know myself who were not at all well have suffered more seriously from such delays. I hope the Minister will consider what can be done to alleviate that sort of treatment, if it cannot be removed altogether.
The Minister mentioned in his speech that EEC Regulation No. 1191/69 provides "for payment of compensation to transport undertakings in respect of losses incurred on services operated under public service obligations which are deemed essential to ensure the provision of adequate transport services". I would be quite happy if the Minister would have due regard to the last line of that regulation. There is no point in trying to spell out in detail what I would regard as essential to ensure the provision of adequate transport services. This is something I believe the Minister and his advisers, in consultation with the transport undertaking, are much more suitably endowed to examine and decide upon. I hope full cognisance will be taken of that wording.
The Minister also refers to Regulation 1192/69 which provides "for compensation in respect of specified financial burdens borne by railway undertakings which are not borne to the same extent by other transport undertakings". I can readily understand that the level crossings would not be shared by other undertakings, but I cannot understand why "retirement and welfare benefits, et cetera”—what the “et cetera” covers I do not know—should differ or should be regarded as anything extraordinary and peculiar only to railway undertakings. There may be some explanation for this but it is not very clear from the intention of the regulation as quoted by the Minister.
Then there is Regulation 1107/70 which specifies "certain additional circumstances in which State aids may be paid to transport undertakings." This Regulation enables the grant of State aid to cover, inter alia:
(a) public service obligations not coming within the meaning of Regulation 1191/69;
That is the regulation I have already mentioned in regard to the provision of adequate transport services. This may mean the provision of services above and beyond adequate transport services, and I would love to know what they are. But it will be time enough to be talking about what goes beyond that requirement when we have got to the happy stage, if we ever do, of having an adequate transport service, as Regulation 1191/69 recommends we should aim at. Paragraph (b) of Regulation 1107/70 reads:
railway infrastructure costs, to the extent that competing modes of transport do not bear their full share of infrastructure costs.
I suppose this means permanent ways, level crossings, signal boxes and so on. Paragraph (c) reads:
balancing subventions to meet the residual deficits of railway undertakings.
If there was ever a provision made for manipulation, that must be it. I am glad it is there, and I hope we shall avail of it to some extent at least. I am sure the Minister and his Department must be fully aware of the outlet that may provide for them, and I do not think there is anything that would not be capable of being brought within that provision, paragraph (c) of Regulation 1107/70.
I shall not delay the House any longer. I do not intend to talk on petrol, much as I would like to. As I said, I seriously think the Minister for Transport and Power should have a specific say in such a matter, it is so vital to his responsibility for transport generally, and in relation to insurance, car import tax and so on. All of them are really part and parcel of his responsibilities.
There will be an opportunity on Tuesday to talk on the other more vexed question. I will not attempt in any way to intrude it into this debate other than as far as I think it necessary to do it to illustrate the additional powers the Minister for Transport and Power requires.
While on that subject, despite the manner in which the House departed last night, I am very thankful to the Ceann Comhairle for his handling of the situation which to him, I am sure, was not acceptable. The fact that there is to be a debate next Tuesday may not justify but it at least mitigates the circumstances in which the situation last night was created.
I commend the Minister to look fully at the points I have made. I have not drawn them to his attention merely on a parochial basis. I was making a case for the inadequacy of the transport system in Donegal. We labour under extreme difficulty there. Since the departure of our railways a considerable time ago these difficulties have been added to. The ears of previous Ministers have been half-open but probably permanently plugged by their Ministers for Finance. There have been pleas that there should not be just a glorified landing strip for private aircraft in Donegal but that there should be a proper integrated service. If one draws a line across the country one finds the three airports at Dublin, Shannon and Cork. In the north-east there is one, and the entire west and north-west area, where an airport is needed most, has not got one. In relation to his overall responsibilities, I am asking the Minister not to allow his ears to be plugged by the Minister for Finance. We have not a rail service in the north-west and sometime, someone must give us a transport service of some kind.
