asked the Minister for Defence if he will modify the regulation which, in the case of a non-commissioned officer who dies later than one year after his retirement, debars his widow from receiving any continuing payment or lump sum.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces (Pensions) Scheme.
2.
The Defence Forces (Pensions) Schemes provide that where a soldier dies while in receipt of a pension and the amount of the payments made on foot of the pension is less than the amount of the gratuity which could have been paid in respect of him if he had died while serving in the Forces i.e., an amount equal to one year's pay, a gratuity may be paid equal to the difference between the payments made on foot of the pension and one year's pay. It is not proposed to alter this provision.
Would the Minister accept it is not showing proper regard for NCOs that, in the case of an NCO I have indicated, or a member of the force, dying after 21 years' service—who has been on pension just one day over a year—his wife gets no form of financial consideration at all?
That is not so. In the case of a married sergeant on pension after 21 years' service his pension is £11.16 per week. The gratuity, equal to one year's pay, would be £2,142. If he died after six weeks on pension, you subtract the amount of pension he was paid during those six weeks from the figure of £2,142.
I am talking about a man who dies after being on pension for a year.
It is not so. The length of time it takes for pension payments to exceed the gratuity, in the case of that particular sergeant, is three and two-third years approximately. I have also got the figures in respect of a sergeant who was on pension after 31 years' service. He would have £15.96 per week pension; the gratuity in his case, equal to one year's pay, would have been £2,142 and it would take approximately two and two-third years before his wife's gratuity rights were wiped out. Therefore, the Deputy is under a misapprehension in this respect.
No, I am afraid the Minister is. The Minister is quoting figures to me of a sergeant who died having been on pension for six months.
I said six weeks.
The question refers to a sergeant who dies one day or more after one year's retirement. I am afraid the Minister is not answering the question I put to him.
I am.
We cannot have an argument on the matter.
The Deputy is under a misapprehension inasmuch as he thinks that, when a sergeant dies one year and one day after retirement, there is no gratuity payable. In fact, the gratuity payable is the gratuity equal to one year's pay, minus the amount of pension he drew during his lifetime. In the case of the sergeant mentioned by the Deputy, it would take three and two-third years to exhaust that. Therefore, there would be quite a large gratuity payable. In the case of a sergeant with 31 years' service it would take two and two-third years in which to exhaust it. Again, therefore, after one year and one day, there would be quite a large gratuity payable.
Is the Minister saying that, in the case of a widow of an NCO who dies on a date later than one year after 21 years' service, she gets no form of payment or any pension from the Army authority?
The maximum pension payable to a line soldier, under the Defence Forces (pensions) schemes would not exceed 50 per cent of his pay. Therefore, it would take well over one year for payments made on foot of a pension to exceed a gratuity of an amount equal to one year's pay. The examples I gave illustrate the point.
This is all civil service talk. I am asking a question in regard to a specific case. If the Minister has not got that specific information, I understand that, but he is merely blinding us with statistical science which does not relate at all to the question I asked.
I shall read from the brief. If a soldier dies in service and his total pensionable service is five years or more, a gratuity of one year's pay is payable to certain defined relatives under the scheme. If he has drawn his pension, the amount of gratuity payable is reduced by the amount of pension he has drawn. The point I am making to the Deputy is that he is misinformed inasmuch as he thinks that it is exhausted after one year. It is exhausted in the case of the sergeant he mentioned after three and two-third years and, in respect of a sergeant with 31 years' service, after two and two-third years.