Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jan 1975

Vol. 277 No. 1

Death of Members. - Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Bill, 1974: Second Stage.

Minister for Labour (Mr. M. O'Leary)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main purpose of this Bill is to provide improved protection for young persons and children by regulating their conditions of employment. In setting the minimum age for entry to employment at 15 years, the Bill sets out to remove an anomaly whereby the existing minimum age for entry to employment is 14 years although the school-leaving age has been raised to 15 years.

For the purpose of the Bill, those in the 15 to 18 age-group are regarded as young persons and those under 15 as children. The term "employee" in the Bill relates to both categories.

This is the first piece of legislation to protect young workers for over 30 years. The effectiveness of this legislation will be monitored closely and in this respect the enforcing inspectorate will have a role and if facts are disclosed that amendments should prove necessary I will not hesitate to introduce these.

It must be acknowledged that the full facts of youth employment in this country are not known. Our statistics do not provide enough detail related to youth. The Bill, when enacted, by compelling employers to maintain records, will furnish for the first time hard facts in place of present surmise. While the worst exploitation of child labour occurred in the 19th century, it would be naïve to think that all traces of the unscrupulous use of the labour of children has disappeared. My Department officers have received complaints about the use of children over long hours for low wages, with the complicity of parents or guardians in many cases. Often, too, the local community do not question, indeed in some instances approve of, young persons working over long hours.

If the worst excesses of exploitation of child labour belong to another century, we must not close our eyes to new forms of exploitation which, superficially, might appear attractive in money terms to young people. I have in mind here the vast expansion and changes which have occurred in the distributive trade leading to the establishment of large supermarkets, off-licences and liquor stores requiring personnel who are not concerned unduly with long hours of work and low hourly payments. Many young people fall into this category.

Generally in our system of employer/employee relations the trade union organisation is expected to provide the organisational shield to safeguard individual and collective rights in the workplace. In the instances I have mentioned, however, trade union organisation has not kept pace with the proliferation of these new distributive forms. I do not wish to suggest that the young people working in these areas are all victims of vicious exploitation but I would indicate that on the facts available, we have received numerous complaints respecting employment conditions in supermarkets, publichouses, catering establishments, petrol service stations and the services industrial sector generally. A large proportion of the young people in such work are girls.

When we consider the question of youth employment, by which I mean all those at work under the age of 18, we find the great class division in our society asserting itself. The children of parents below a certain income depart for unskilled employment trained for no specific purpose and lacking the skills necessary to ensure a future career with security and adequate remuneration. That is why I have been so anxious to expand the national training programme so as to alter this sad scheme of things. Great strides have been made during the past two years in expanding our direct training capacity but the need to be met remains a vast one. The children of the parents I have mentioned in Ireland find little institutional assistance, certainly no assistance commensurate with the effort required to break from the fate ordained for them by virtue of their parents financial and social status. The children of the unskilled remain unskilled. The culturally under-privileged of one generation belong to the same category in the next. It would be a gross underestimation of the size of this problem to suppose that this Bill faces up to these issues. The Bill simply confronts some of the problems posed when young people leave school for industrial or other work, establishing certain minimum conditions which must apply.

Like the rest of us in the consumer society, young people are subject to the same pressures designed to make them addicts of the values of the acquisitive society. They are urged to emulate the mistakes of their elders to become hooked on a gadget-obsessed society. Under the guise of rejecting that society and its values the pop prophets of the consumer-orientated youth culture preach a new set of possessions, the gadgets and props of their alternative order. At any rate it can be said that many young people are coerced into over-spending and in the event are not concerned about the hours they work or the conditions attached provided there is some financial reward.

The enforcing agency will be the inspectorate which during the past year I have increased by an appreciable number. As indicated already, further legislation may be considered in this area when we are in full possession of all the facts since up to now we have not specifically addressed ourselves in legislation in this Parliament to the question of young people at work.

The passage of the Bill should cause us to think once more of the problems of our young people at work in foreign countries either on a permanent basis or during school holidays. While net emigration has virtually ceased in recent years, an alarming proportion of the outflow has constituted a consistent proportion of young people, girls and boys under the age of 18, many from rural parts of this country. While great credit must go to the many voluntary agencies working on questions related to this in England, one is left with the impression that under present arrangements the possibility of great hardships being undergone by young people working for long hours in England is still with us. Even in the case of those who have not left education permanently, one is left with the impression that students, whether at secondary level or university, in their efforts to obtain as large a sum of money as possible during the holiday period are forced to work abnormal hours which must have serious adverse consequences both on their application to study and their health.

I have asked our labour attaché, appointed by me, in London to report on this aspect of the situation. The Committee on Emigrants attached to my Department have also examined it. Outside England in this connection I have had thorough examinations carried out of, for example, on the working conditions of potato-pickers in Scotland and of our trainee hotel workers in Switzerland. Generally, a reform Government must examine all areas of potential improvement. Up to a relatively recent date young people were considered to be cared for adequately if sufficient swimming-pools or recreation areas were provided, not that these have been provided adequately either. While there have been improvements in this area and while this aspect is important, it would be true to say that the requirements of young people at work were not considered.

Our decision to give votes to young people at 18 must lead to a more serious analysis of young people in our society, their needs and how our laws must serve those needs. We live in a country which has more young people living within the State's boundaries than at any other time in the State's history. It is not realised that a revolution in the age composition of our population is taking place. Whether our institutions are facing up to this changing pattern is an open question.

I had been considering proposals for an Hours of Work Act which would have regulated the working hours, rest intervals and other conditions of most employees, irrespective of age. Extensive consultations about those proposals were conducted with employer and employee interests. Due to the diversity of employment patterns throughout various sectors of the economy, many problems arose in trying to reconcile the views of all interests in one piece of general legislation. Since it would take a considerable time to resolve these problems, I became concerned that the implementation of the provisions dealing with the protection of young persons might be further delayed. I felt, therefore, that effect should be given quickly to those parts of the original proposals which deal specifically with the interests of young persons in employment.

This Bill reflects both modern trends in employment conditions and various international standards designed for the protection of young people. The enactment of the Bill will represent a significant innovatory step in this area and will enable three International Labour Organisation Conventions to be ratified by Ireland. These are the conventions relating to night work of young persons both in industrial and in non-industrial occupations and the Minimum Age Convention.

The provisions of the Bill will have very wide application and will cover young persons in almost all forms of employment. Limited exceptions are proposed in respect of a few categories of workers, where the nature of their activities would pose serious problems of application. These are confined to young persons employed as fishermen, lighthouse keepers, seafarers and members of the Defence Forces. I am taking power to bring excluded categories within the scope of the legislation if this appears desirable at a future time.

While statistics do not exist which could be related directly to the scope of the Bill, it has been estimated that roughly 65,000 young employees in the age groups 15 years to 18 years, would be covered by its provisions. Many of these have already had the protection of the relevant provisions of the Conditions of Employment Acts 1936-1944 and the Shops (Conditions of Employment) Acts 1938-1942. However, approximately one third of this total will be brought within the scope of this protective legislation for the first time.

Under section 4 of this Bill, the employment of children under 15 years will be generally prohibited. I recognise that for young people at school some familiarity with the working environment can be an important educational experience. As an exception to the minimum employment age of 15, children of more than 14 years will be allowed to do light non-industrial work for up to two hours a day outside school hours and up to seven hours a day during holidays subject to a maximum of 35 hours per week, provided the work is not harmful to their health or normal development. Neither must it prejudice their attendance or performance at school.

There were suggestions that the employment of children under school-leaving age should be regulated by a licensing arrangement but I believe that this would merely serve to create a cumbersome bureaucratic arrangement which, in the context of my proposals, would relate to but one year's employment between 14 and 15 years. The conditions which will be attached to the employment of children in that age group will act as adequate safeguards.

I have considered it desirable in section 6 to take power to specify a higher minimum age for entry to employment in respect of any work which might endanger the health or safety of young persons. This power, which would only be exercised after consultation with the social partners, gives me a measure of flexibility in dealing with special situations. The provision is in line with the thinking of the International Labour Organisation.

Section 5 requires employers to obtain proper evidence of age before they take children or young persons into employment. They are also required to keep records of ages, working times and rates of pay. These requirements have been strengthened to facilitate enforcement. Contraventions by employers and complicity by parents or guardians will be offences. I expect that the application of this provision will enable me to monitor the conditions of employment of those concerned and should the need arise further corrective measures will be taken.

Sections 7 and 8 deal with maximum working hours for young persons and section 9 covers their normal working hours. The main point to which I would like to draw the attention of Deputies is the more favourable provisions under both headings for young persons under 16 years. I consider that these young people, undertaking their first experience of full-time employment, are deserving of special consideration and these provisions will help to assist in their transition into the working environment. There are provisions in sections 7 and 9 for averaging hours within the over-riding limits in accordance with the terms of collective agreements, employment regulation orders and registered employment agreements but I have not made any such provision in section 8 because it would, in my view, be inappropriate for young persons under 16 years.

Intervals for rest are specified in sections 11 and 12. Following a period of five hours' work, an employee must be allowed an unpaid half-hour's break.

Before commencing overtime expected to last more than 1½ hours, an employee must get an unpaid break of half an hour. This particular break may be varied by agreement provided the revised break is not less than 15 minutes and is paid for. In addition, an employee who works more than five days in a week and more than three hours on a Sunday must be allowed a 24-hour break, without pay, every seven days.

There are restrictions in sections 13 and 14 of the Bill on the employment of children and young persons at night. The enactment of these provisions will enable us to ratify the ILO conventions on night work to which I have referred.

The enforcement of the provisions of this legislation, if passed, would fall to the inspectors of my Department. Section 26 gives them the usual powers for this purpose. Sections 21 to 23 deal with prosecutions and penalties. Read together with sections 5 and 25, which relate to evidence of age and the keeping of records, I think that my intention will be clear that this law should be observed. While I have referred to the formal provisions related to enforcement, I would welcome the co-operation of all sections of the community in ensuring that the very necessary provisions of this Bill will be observed in both the letter and the spirit of the law.

In order to ensure that this legislation, as a flexible instrument of social reform, can be adjusted in accordance with the special requirements of particular sectors of employment, I have taken powers in the Bill to give exemptions by regulations.

This would follow consultations with the appropriate workers' and employers' organisations. I should make it clear that such powers of modification would be used only in cases where I am convinced by the evidence presented that special measures are essential. There is also a requirement in section 27 that drafts of orders in relation to major alterations in the sections which deal with the non-application of the Act, maximum hours and normal hours, must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas with a view to securing their approval by means of affirmative resolution. In this way, it will not be necessary to introduce amending legislation on each occasion when a major change under any of these headings is being made while ensuring at the same time that the Oireachtas retains full control over such changes.

I referred earlier to the wider scope of the Bill as compared with existing legislation. This is a major improvement in itself. In addition, various standards laid down in the Bill have also been improved in favour of the young employee. Compared with the Conditions of Employment Acts, 1936-1944, which cover mainly industrial work, there are changes in relation to minimum age, maximum and normal working hours of young persons under 16 years and in night work restrictions. The changes favourable to employees are more marked when the provisions of the Bill are compared with the Shops (Conditions of Employment) Acts, 1938-1942, covering employees in shops, hotels, restaurants and similar establishments. In this case, the changes relate to minimum age, maximum and normal working hours for all young employees and night work restrictions. It will be noted from section 19 that where hours of work have to be reduced in order to comply with the provisions of the Act, there would be no reduction permitted in the remuneration due to the employee.

Taking the Bill as a whole, the House will, I hope agree that its provisions represent a positive legislative advance in the conditions of employment of children and young persons. It is also a straightforward piece of legislation which will afford flexibility for modifications in appropriate cases. For these reasons I commend the Bill to the House and look forward to the speedy passage of all its Stages.

Mr. Dowling

This Bill will get the support of my party. Nevertheless we are disappointed the Minister did not avail of this opportunity to make greater progress in this vital area. This legislation falls far short of what is required. The Minister indicated that there were many problems and not everybody's view would be covered. He said that the matter would be kept under constant review and, at a later stage, additional legislation would be enacted.

This was a valuable opportunity to introduce comprehensive legislation. Like many other Acts which have passed through this House, this legislation falls short of what is required. I hope in the future it will not be necessary for the Minister to bring in another Bill to prop up this one. Due to the change in circumstances, of attitudes in industry and the raising of the school-leaving age, it is necessary that legislation be introduced now to cover this vulnerable section of the community. It is regrettable too that it has taken 30 years to update this situation. After such a long time, we should have a comprehensive measure to protect this section of our society, which is the most likely section to be exploited.

As this Bill goes through the various Stages it is my hope that it will be improved by amendments which the Minister will accept. In the past there was a very serious situation of baby farmers who took advantage of the child-labour situation. The passing of the Apprenticeship Act and the setting up of the Apprenticeship Board controlled that situation. There were other ways in which young people could still be exploited, as were set out in the Minister's brief. It is necessary that we eliminate as far as possible the tensions and pressures on this section of our society.

Young people starting at the bottom rung of the ladder can be very easily exploited because many of them do not know their rights and have not learned how to protect themselves. They are vulnerable and it is necessary in this regard to have something more positive and more comprehensive than the present legislation. Economic and other factors force young people to take up employment. Steps should be taken to ensure that young people are enabled to avail of the educational opportunities that exist. They should not be forced by economic or social pressures to take up employment—economic and social pressures which could be relieved by Government policy. This is a separate matter but if it had been tackled the necessity for this Bill might not exist to the same extent as it does at present.

As the Minister pointed out, it is mainly the children of working class families who go to work. I hope the Minister can indicate clearly that the Government are taking action to remedy the problems of young people who now seek employment and that we will have a more comprehensive measure in this field.

Section 2 (1) (c) defines "industrial work" as "work in the transport of persons or goods". Does this apply to messenger boys? The Minister explained that the Bill does not apply to young persons employed as fishermen, lighthouse keepers, seafarers and members of the Defence Forces. A little further explanation is necessary here. Does the Bill apply to boys in the Army bands, for instance?

Section 8 (1) reads:

Subject to the provisions of this Act, an employer shall not permit an employee who is a young person under the age of sixteen years of age in his employment to work for him for more than (a) nine hours in any day, or (b) forty hours in any week.

We know that the maximum becomes the norm. An employer who wants to exploit an employee under 16 years of age can have him work nine hours a day and 40 hours a week although a person over 16 is allowed to work only eight hours a day and 40 hours a week. This section should be closely examined. We will be moving quite a number of amendments on Committee Stage and we are at present assembling additional information which we will have by then.

Section 12 of the Bill reads:

When an employee is employed by an employer to work on more than five days in a week and the employee is also required to do more than three hours work on a Sunday, the employer shall ensure that the conditions of employment of every such employee are such that the employee will have at least twenty-four consecutive hours rest without pay in every period of seven days.

That is a very generous section. It should be tightened up and it should be more to the advantage of the employee.

Section 17 reads:

(1) Any sum of money due to an employee from his employer under any provision of this Act shall be recoverable by the employee from his employer as a simple contract debt in a court of competent jurisdiction.

(2) Proceedings for the recovery of any sum due by an employer to an employee under any provision of this Act may be instituted and maintained on behalf of the employee by his trade union.

Does this mean that a young person of 14, 15 or 16 years entering employment must join a trade union? Is this to be a recruiting section for trade unions? If not, who will pursue their legitimate claims? This section should be tightened up and we should ensure that young people who are not members of trade unions will have a way of ensuring that their just claims are met.

Section 19 deals with the fixing of wages. Who fixes the wage rates or how are they fixed? What agreements does the Minister refer to? Is there a special agreement made when a young person enters employment?

Section 26 deals with the powers of inspectors. Subsection (2) reads:

The powers conferred on an inspector by subsection (1) (a) of this section shall not be exercisable in respect of a private dwelling house unless the Minister (or an officer of the Minister appointed for the purpose) certifies that he has reasonable grounds for believing that an offence under this section in relation to an employee has been committed by the employer, and the inspector in applying for admission to the house produces the certificate.

How are young people who go into service affected by this? Does this section refer to them and, if not, why? We would like to know, too, how the Minister proposes to deal with child actors and entertainers. Are they covered by this?

This legislation was necessary because of the change in the school leaving age, apart from anything else. I hope the changes that will be brought about will be effective and will have the desired results. I believe the Bill falls far short of what is required. The Minister had a wonderful opportunity to eliminate exploitation. One field in which it has been suggested that there has been a considerable amount of exploitation as regards young female workers is the clothing industry. Perhaps this is one of the areas the Minister has in mind. He also mentioned supermarkets and off-licence liquor stores.

I am glad the Minister particularly mentioned the off-licence liquor stores. We know of the problems that have arisen in many areas because of the sale of liquor to young people. As we have seen on television, if certain liquors are taken with drugs there may be considerable problems. Some measures should be taken to tighten up this area. The Government should carry out an overall examination regarding the employment of young persons rather than introduce the simple Bill now before the House that only deals with the number of hours worked, time off for meals and other minor matters when one considers the variety of problems not touched on.

The Minister stated:

Generally in our system of employer/employee relations the trade union organisation is expected to provide the organisational shield to safeguard individual and collective rights in the workplace.

I agree with this but my concern is about all workers. I do not think the Minister intends that people must become members of a trade union immediately they start work. It is implied that if they are members their rights will be protected but their rights should be protected irrespective of whether or not they are members of a trade union. It is regrettable that in an area where the trade unions have a responsibility there should be this doubt. The Minister mentioned the doubt and I also thought there was this problem when I read the Bill.

The Minister also stated:

In the instances I have mentioned, however, trade union organisation has not kept pace with the proliferation of these new distributive forms.

It is necessary to ensure that throughout the work force every aspect will be covered for all the people who are employed, whether or not they are members of a trade union. We may have a considerable amount of discussion on this matter on other Stages. The Minister referred to catering establishments and petrol filling stations. These are areas in which there has been some exploitation and it is possible we may be able to alleviate or remedy some of the problems that exist. The fact that a young person takes up employment can broaden his outlook and can be of great importance to that person. It can expand his knowledge and can help the young person to attain the goals he has set for himself.

No one underestimates this immense problem and it needs the sympathy, consideration and assistance of all groups. The National Youth Council and other groups can be of great assistance to representatives and to this House with regard to supplying information. I assume the Minister has met the groups concerned, has listened to their views and, where possible, has incorporated them in this legislation. I have no doubt that he has taken heed of the views of the groups concerned with regard to the employment of young people.

There has been reference to the potato pickers in Scotland and hotel workers in Switzerland. These people are working in places far removed from our country and it is good to know the Minister is paying special attention to them and that he has instituted an examination of the conditions under which young Irish people are forced to work abroad. I am quite sure that many young, and indeed old, people here would not work under the same conditions that Irish people have to endure abroad. It is gratifying to know that the Minister has given consideration to their problems so that these people may be properly advised. It is heartening to know that the special labour attaché whom he has appointed is working on this important matter and we wish him every success. I hope the information that comes back will be of benefit.

I do not wish to be accused of holding up this Bill. As we consider it we will ask questions about insurance cover for young workers, whether they are covered by insurance, what form it will take, if it will be the same as in the past or if there will be more comprehensive coverage. We will ask the Minister questions regarding the holiday situation and many other aspects that affect the lives of young people who are entering employment for the first time. It is very important that young people have happy memories of this part of their lives. rather than the rather unhappy memories of many of our youth who were exploited in the past.

At the moment the exploitation of people is not nearly as great as it was in the past. The Minister referred to exploitation in the 19th century when young people and adults were not treated in a fair manner. Indeed, into the 20th century there was exploitation of workers; there was sweated labour in our own country as well as elsewhere. It is good to know that an effort is being made to improve the situation. We are disappointed that the Bill is not more comprehensive. Even if it meant more time, we would be better off in the long run if we had a more comprehensive measure. It is true that when a matter is left in abeyance other issues get priority but it is not good enough to deal in a half-hearted manner with a problem of the workers. If it is necessary to support a measure by additional legislation at a later stage we are not doing a good job. It is a stop-gap way of dealing with the matter and it is not good enough.

However, we wish the Minister well and hope that the House will give this legislation a speedy passage. The Minister must be prepared for the substantial number of amendments we shall be putting forward to improve and expand the Bill to cover a wider area. I hope the Minister will be tolerant of us; the fact that the suggestions come from us should not induce him to impede the passage of the Bill. I can assure him that we will be as reasonable as possible in our efforts to deal with this matter to ensure that it is implemented as quickly as possible.

Mr. O'Brien

I welcome this Bill. I am surprised it has taken such a long time to bring legislation on this matter before the House. Obviously when the Opposition were in Government they did not give it much consideration but I am glad they have been converted and accept that this legislation is necessary.

As the Minister has pointed out, there is not the exploitation of children at work that existed in the last century. However, the coming of the affluent and the consumer society meant that many young people were thrown into the labour market at an early stage to serve the needs of society. One can see in supermarkets, in filling stations, in lounge bars and other places many young people who are working long hours for low wages.

It is welcome to see this change. The Minister said today that the type of labour covered in this Bill comes basically from the less well-off section of our society, the underprivileged. This Bill will ensure that long hours are not worked by those young people but I do not think it will really tackle the main problem, which is education. Most of these young people go to work at a very early age. They leave school at 14 years of age and do not go on to further education because they are anxious to work. We should do something about rearranging the educational programme.

Many employers give time off to young people to attend classes but many of them do not do so. It is important that we encourage young people to continue their education. Many of them work in dead-end jobs. They come to a cul-de-sac when they reach 18 years of age. Their employers do not wish to pay them higher wages and they are let go without any training. Those young people should be encouraged to take up some form of training.

In this Bill we are talking about raising the living standards of our young people, but ensuring that they work a few hours less each week is just not enough. It is stated in this Bill that young people under 16 years of age should not be permitted to work more than ten hours a day or 50 hours in any week. Ten hours work a day is long for young people, particularly if they are pursuing night courses. Employers might well go on the basis that this legislation says young people can work for ten hours a day and decide they should all work that length of time. Could it not be eight hours a day? Those young people may want additional money and might be prepared to work for ten hours a day. They might decide not to go ahead with night courses. This could have a bad effect on them later on.

Fishermen, lighthouse men and the Defence Forces are omitted from this Bill. I do not know why the Defence Forces are omitted, although I realise they have a different role to play. However, in the Defence Forces we have the training of young people and they should be made to conform with the standards laid down in this Bill. I hope the Minister will have a look at this aspect of the matter.

How are people working in small family businesses, and perhaps drawing only a small sum of money or none at all, affected under this Bill? Many young people are employed in small family businesses. They should be covered under this Bill. I should like some clarification from the Minister on this.

Section 23 states that "a person who commits an offence under this Act shall be fined £25 in the case of a first offence." That is ludicrous. We have the same situation in the Planning Bill, where the fine was £100. I have an amendment down to make the fine £500 and Deputy Molloy has one down to make it £1,000. When such legislation is brought in we should ensure that the fines are large enough to discourage people breaking the law. We should make the fine £100 in the case of this Bill and in the case of a continuing offence a fine of £20 for every day on which the offence continues. That would be a great deterrent to people who might think of breaking the law. When the fine is large enough they are less likely to break the law. This would ensure that people who break the law are punished.

This Bill is long overdue. It is most important that it goes on the Statute Book at an early date. I should like the Minister to have some printed matter made available from his Department for employers to give to young people when they go into employment. Those young people would then know the procedure in regard to complaints. Some employees, for fear of losing their jobs, or because of intimidation might not want to complain. At least the employee should have some place to report his grievances, and those grievances should be reported in confidence and the inspection should be done in the same way. The employee should be informed of the hours he is entitled to work and of the contents of this Bill, not necessarily the whole Bill but in broad terms the conditions laid down which would normally affect him. If we do that we shall be going a long way, because if the employer has to give this out, he is clear in his own mind that he is open to inspection at any time and liable to a heavy fine if he is convicted. That will deter him from breaking the law, and from using young people for his own profit without any consideration for the young person.

Again I compliment the Minister on introducing this Bill. I shall be speaking on this subject again on Committee Stage. In regard to amendments, I would ask the Minister to consider the educational opportunities for younger people, particularly those who would be most in need of this assistance, even if it means giving employers an incentive to release young people. The title of the Bill is the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Bill, and there is no better way of protecting young people today than by broadening their minds, giving them ideas, giving them a sense of wanting to do something better. If that involves finance it will be money well spent. It will tend to lift our whole society up to a higher level. Our overall educational system is quite good, but for some young people because of their background and their upbringing, education is not a priority; they tend to be in this twilight zone until they go to work from sixth class in the national school. If we encourage courses in various aspects of development, I believe this Bill will be well worthwhile. Again I commend the Minister for bringing it in.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Like the two previous speakers I also would like to welcome this Bill. Any legislation which will provide protection for young persons in employment, as this Bill sets out to do, is to be welcomed, and I would hope, as the Minister has hoped, that it will get a speedy passage through the House.

There are certain criticisms that have already been voiced by Deputy Dowling and that I do not intend to go over again. I hope the Minister will be forthcoming and generous in his approach to the various amendments which will be put down by Deputy Dowling.

I have one main criticism, that instead of a Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Bill we should have before us an hours of work Bill not just for young people but for people of all ages. The Minister has indicated that he is considering such a Bill and I would ask him to press forward with the negotiations that are taking place between the employer and employee——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is aware he is outside the scope of the Bill before the House.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am just coming back to it. I would ask him to bring this legislation before the House as soon as possible. There are two categories of young people to be considered, those in permanent employment and those in temporary employment. It would be wrong if the message went out from this House that we consider employers to be modernday slave drivers. The vast majority of our employers, most of them being family men themselves, are more than aware of the problems facing young people going into employment and are considerate and attentive to the needs and requirements of young people in their employment. There is always a small section of black sheep in any community and these are the people this Bill is aimed at. I agree with Deputy O'Brien that for these black sheep, for the employers who unscrupulously misuse the services of the young persons in their employment, a £25 fine is ludicrous. I would appeal to the Minister to increase this fine considerably for any employer found abusing the rights of young persons.

In regard to the section dealing with young people engaged in temporary employment in the catering trade, the bar trade or, as the Minister himself described it, the lounge bar society, this provision is to be welcomed. Any legislation is to be welcomed that will stop the employment of young people of 15 or 16 years of age in public houses, in establishments serving liquor up to 11 at night or, in summertime, up to half past eleven, or in hotels, when functions are being held, up to 12 midnight or after it. It is not a healthy environment for any young boy or girl. One of the great scourges of Irish society is that of alcohol. Employing young people of either sex in lounge bars is to be abhorred and I am glad this legislation will put a speedy end to this practice.

There are many spheres in which young people can be gainfully engaged. I know many parents who are anxious that their children should get some experience of the normal working environment through the medium of some sort of part-time employment, not necessarily for the sake of the money that may be involved but for the sake of the experience gained, because this kind of occupation can give young people a sense of responsibility. This is a valid argument and it is an aspect on which the Minister might comment when he comes to reply. Surely the Government could evolve some scheme of tasks suitable for young people? There are many things that can be done for the aged, the infirm and the less well-off, tasks which are now done to a great extent by charitable organisations. Nevertheless there are still gaps to be filled as between what is being done and what could be done. Surely the Government could establish a youth corps somewhat similar to the Peace Corps in the USA some years back? Young people could paint and decorate for those incapable of doing these tasks themselves without in any way infringing on the employment potentialities of qualified painters and decorators. The people for whom they would do these tasks would never be in a position to employ painters and decorators themselves.

Recreational facilities are vitally important for all sections of our community. This Bill is designed to protect young workers. All workers should be protected. The Minister has asked for a speedy passage for this measure and I shall certainly facilitate him in that.

Mr. Pattison

I compliment the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. It augurs well for the future. After almost 30 years of stagnation in this area a start has at last been made in legislation for the protection of young people, a start designed to bring legislation here into line with modern thinking and good christian and social practices. There have been widespread abuses and there has been maltreatment of young workers. Fortunately that has occured in only a minority of cases. Sometimes it is very difficult in such cases to get the facts. Sometimes it is even difficult to get people to believe the complaints emanating from this minority area.

I would stress that, although 30 years have elapsed without any significant change, nevertheless conditions of employment generally have been freely negotiated through the trade union movement between employers and employees. These freely negotiated conditions and terms of employment have by and large provided some measure of protection for young workers. As a previous speaker pointed out, those young workers who are outside the scope of the joint labour committee orders made over the years, had absolutely no protection and it would appear that very few people, particularly legislators, over the last 30 years worried very much about the situation. The trade union movement and the employer organisations are to be complimented on the way in which in their areas of responsibility they filled the vacuum left by the legislators in that they provided a great number of young workers with conditions of employment giving them a fair amount of protection.

But it still left many others, who were not in the fortunate position of being members of a union or who were not included in a Labour Court order, completely at the mercy of the exploiters. Fortunately there are not many exploiters but the whole country should be ashamed of the ones we have.

This Bill divides young workers into three categories. The youngest group are the children between 14 and 15 years of age in employment. The next group are the children under 16 years of age and the third are the young people over 16 years. The provisions of the Bill differ in relation to the three categories in some respects, as they should. The years from 14 to 18 are very impressionable and the way in which these groups are treated by legislation is very important. Perhaps on Committee Stage or on Report Stage the Minister could include a section to amend the Holidays (Employees) Act. As I recall, the Act and the amendment which was made to it, refer only to employees under 18 years. Whether an employee is 17 years or 15 years he must work the same number of hours to qualify for entitlement under the Holidays (Employees) Act, as amended in 1974, I think. As we have three categories under this Bill we should have some amendment of the Holidays (Employees) Act to provide three categories there, so that a worker under 16 years would qualify for holiday entitlement with a smaller number of hours than a worker over 16. At the moment workers under 18 years need not have the same number of working hours to qualify for full normal holidays as workers over 18 years.

I was shocked to learn from the Minister that there is an almost complete lack of statistics officially available and that this is one of the difficulties which the Minister has to face in legislation in this field. I suppose the absence of statistics and details on what has been the position in the absence of legislation of this kind, is understandable. In most instances where young workers suffered in one way or another, they were afraid to make a report or to tell anyone in case it resulted in the loss of that employment. The employment and the meagre earnings he or she might make are very important. In my work as a trade union official I found that in this area it was very difficult to get information about exploitation of young people. They were afraid to tell anyone about their problems or to discuss their problems with anyone, and particularly with anyone who might convey back to the employer the fact that his young employees were complaining.

The Bill might go a little further and make it necessary for employers in addition to keeping a register, to supply a list of the names of young people to the Department, and particularly in the case of the category under 16 years. These lists would help the Minister and the Department to get the statistics they so badly need to proceed with further legislation of this kind. In the main, this legislation refers only to hours of work and limits on them. Many other matters require to be covered by legislation for the protection of young people in employment. It would not be a big obligation. It would not entail very much because the employer will be obliged to keep a register under section 5 of the Bill. All he would have to do would be to send to the Department the names and the changes made from time to time. This would keep the local officers of the Department informed of the number of young people in his employment. The Department also would know at any time how many people were in employment.

This would also help the inspectorate. One of the problems about providing an inspectorate service in this area is the reluctance of quite a number of people to make reports. People will speak generally or anonymously, but I find from experience that they are very reluctant to make a report, not because they are doubtful about their facts, but because they fear some act of revenge by their employer. To ensure that the provisions of the Bill are being implemented it would be a good thing if each inspector had a list of where young people are employed and how many are employed so that he would not have to waste his time going to firms where these categories of workers are not employed. They could regulate their work to pay occasional visits to these places even though there was no reports of violation of any of the provision of the Act.

There are a number of matters I should like to see in the Bill. It is important that a Bill of this nature should not be complicated. It should be kept as simple and as straightforward as possible. I feel sure that when the Minister receives reports as a result of the operation of this Bill he will, as he stated earlier, bring in amending and additional legislation as the need arises. I accept the Minister's undertaking in this regard. I believe that if any Deputy, or any organisation catering for workers, brings to the attention of the Minister the need for amendments in this legislation he will meet their wishes.

I should now like to deal with hours of work and type of employment. It may be perfectly in order for a young person to work ten hours per day in a certain type of employment while it may be extremely bad for that young person's health to work more than six hours per day in another type of employment. Some of the sections in relation to this aspect of the Bill can be discussed better on Committee Stage. In relation to section 4, which deals with the minimum age for employment and sets out that an employer may employ a child who is over the age of 14 years to do light non-industrial work which is not harmful to the health or normal development of the child, I should like to know who makes the decision in this regard. I am aware that subsection (7) of section 4 states that the Minister may by order revoke or amend an order under this section including an order under that subsection.

I interpret that section to mean that the Minister has power if a question is raised in relation to a particular employment being harmful to an individual person. Must an employer, before he employs such a person, make application to the Department of Labour and satisfy the Department that the type of work he intends to give to the young person is in order? What type of criteria will the Department use to reach a decision on a matter of this kind? Who decides the harmfulness, or otherwise, of work?

On reading some of the sections I have come to the conclusion that the young person can be liable to a fine if he or she is a party to contravening any of the provisions of the Bill. Subsection (2) of section 15 states that whenever an employer employs an employee in contravention of this section, the employer shall be guilty of an offence and the employee shall also be guilty of an offence. Does that apply in many instances or is it to be confined to that particular section? In my view it would be too severe to impose these fines on the young person. I should like clarification on that point.

This legislation is very necessary. It is long overdue and some harm has been done to young people not alone because of bad working conditions but because of severe action by employers on them at such a young age. When young people are treated badly in employment their attitude to employment, and employers generally, will be one of hostility throughout their adult life. This has been the case in a number of instances. In my view this legislation will prevent such a situation occuring again.

I want to thank the Minister for having introduced this legislation. I would urge him to take into account the many other matters that it might be necessary to have incorporated in this legislation. I know they cannot all be included at present. I hope the Bill will have a quick passage.

Mr. Moore

I should like to commence my few remarks by welcoming the Bill and indeed in congratulating the Minister on some of its proposals.

In the first paragraph of his brief he mentioned that he was removing an existing anomaly under which the minimum age for employment was 14 years even though the school-leaving age was 15 years. This, perhaps more than anything else, epitomises the confusion existing as regards the employment and general problems of youth. I would urge the Minister—between now and the Final Stage—to request the Government to give us a more comprehensive Bill than this one, which would be the product not alone of the Minister for Labour but also of the Ministers for Education, Industry and Commerce and Health. I feel there will be need for this Bill only in the poorer section of the community—the children of the lower-paid workers. We may say we will protect such youth in employment but it will be the lucky ones only who will get employment.

When this Bill becomes an Act I am sure the Minister will enforce its provisions very strictly. I would suggest to the Minister that we are not tackling the protection of young people, even in employment. We are adopting legislation here which may improve matters and which may remove some of the guilt we feel for what we are not doing for these young people.

I would recommend the Minister to read the latest report of the school attendance committees of this city, which would disturb anybody no matter how hardened he might be. In that report the Minister will find suggestions for the improvement of the conditions of children about whom I speak. I can understand the Minister's point when he refers to this gadget-obsessed society that we have. I congratulate the Minister on the concern shown by him but I do not think this Bill will effect any great breakthrough towards a better social charter for our young people. The Minister referred to children employed by supermarkets and publichouses but we must face the fact that for many a family the income derived from such employment is of very great help. One can say that the conditions in most supermarkets are good; they are clean, airy and well ventilated.

Publichouses employing young people to carry drinks around are generally of the lounge bar type with all modern conveniences. Lest we should feel we are doing anything to improve the conditions of youth by recognising that that type of employment exists, in trying to protect young people from working too long hours, or ensuring that their employers will not abuse a boy's or girl's service in any way, I do not think the employers are any more avaricious than are we careless. I deplore seeing young boys carrying drinks around in publichouses because, when we allow young people to engage in such employment or when we tolerate conditions which force children into such employment then we are to blame and not the employers. I am sure such employers treat these young people well, but there is something seriously wrong with the thinking of anybody who feels that the way to start training a boy is to give him part-time employment in a publichouse. I wonder how many of us here would allow our sons to take up such employment. But our society does allow this. I give the Minister credit for showing concern in this respect. He is doing something which may remove the guilt we feel about the neglect of these young people.

The Bill is entitled Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Bill, 1974. The Minister should introduce a Bill entitled something like Protection of Young Persons in Certain Categories Bill. Anybody experienced in social work in this city or who has read the report I mentioned will know of the asphalt jungle existing for these youngsters. Even more disturbing is the fact that they come from a certain category of our society. There are many young people who will never be forced into working in a publichouse or supermarket and of this we are glad. I am thinking of the young girl or boy coming from a disturbed family background. He or she may not want to continue going to school but rather want to take up employment. They take the first job that comes along and after a few years they are too old for it. They are then too old to enter into apprenticeship. Probably they have not even attended a school up to the group certificate level. At present there are many young people being reared who will be misfits in our society practically all their lives. It has been proven by sociologists—as quoted in the report to which I have referred —that very few children are bright of their own initiative. Rather it is the environment in which they live that shapes their characters or thinking. For that reason we cannot cast aside the boy or girl who may appear to be dull or not very intelligent.

We cannot condemn them to go through life as unskilled workers in the lower paid categories just because we have failed to create the conditions in which those children can properly educate themselves. I accept the fact that we cannot all continue to third level education. I accept the fact also that there are plenty of people who do not want to go on to third level. But it is our duty to ensure, if they do not continue into third level education and if they cannot even obtain gainful employment, that they will have a proper course of training available to them so that when the economic situation improves these young people will be able to take their place either on the industrial or on the commercial scene.

The Minister referred to the question of the emigration of young people. We all know that very often our emigrants work long hours and in poor conditions but when they go away our law cannot protect them. We cannot prevent people from going away but we should make every effort to prepare them for emigration. It would be worth the Minister's while to broaden the whole scope of this Bill. While what is proposed may prove effective in relation to what is intended by the Minister, I do not think it is going far enough in ensuring adequate protection for our young people. I believe the Minister to be genuinely concerned with the problems of youth but there is required in this sphere more than is proposed here. A young boy may work in, say, a publichouse for ten hours each day but the chances are that he will spend the remaining 14 hours in a deprived and disturbed home.

The Minister wishes for a speedy passage for this Bill. It is not our intention to delay the Bill but I would remind the Minister that before we can boast of having done anything for our youth and while we are awaiting the various reports on the various aspects of youth, we might well get in touch with the education authorities and, in particular, with the school attendance committees in the city. These people are in a position to give the Minister the benefit of a wealth of information which they have acquired from their experience in dealing with young people. The Minister may say that I am encroaching on the Department of Education but my answer to that would be that all legislation in respect of young people must be the product of the best talents not only of the Department of Labour but also of all the other Government Departments. Advice should be sought, too, from the many excellent social workers and these members of religious orders who are doing so much to create a better society and to ensure a fuller life for our young people.

The Minister told us that if this legislation is not seen to be operating satisfactorily, he would have no hesitation in introducing further legislation. If it is not the Minister's intention to conclude the Bill this evening, perhaps, between now and the final Stages he would consider broadening the scope of the Bill. There could be included the provision that before a young person accepts employment there would be an assurance that any such employment would not mitigate against the furtherance of the education of the boy or girl concerned. In a case where parents might say that they need the money being earned by their child in a supermarket or publichouse, the State should be able to offer help equivalent to that being provided by the boy so that he may be able to continue with his education. It is for us to develop a society in which our young people will be protected from drifting in the wrong direction. We cannot say that we cherish equally all the children of the nation but I am not attaching the blame for this on any section in particular. The blame lies as much with me as a Member of this House and as a Dubliner as with anybody else. We have not done enough in so far as our young people are concerned. I am thinking especially of the question of part-time employment for our youth. This whole area should be investigated. Every boy and girl should be given the opportunity of either an academic or a technical education. A well educated youth will not be likely to be the victim of the ills and dangers that are prevalent in any urban society today.

This Bill indicates a concern for certain aspects of the youth problem and to that extent I welcome it.

Mr. Callanan

I, too, welcome the Bill but I would remind the Minister of the difficulty that may be encountered in enforcing its provisions. I say this because of the many categories of youth that are being employed. For instance, there are the different age groups. Children attending secondary school may seek holiday employment. As public representatives we often have requests from parents to help in some way in securing holiday jobs for children. Young people, from the age of 13 onwards are anxious to earn money but up to now there has been no protection for them. In the past small business places were a breeding ground for Communism. I say this because the workers, especially the younger ones, had no representation by way of unions or otherwise to protect them.

Deputy Dowling mentioned a very important point: who will enforce the regulations under this Bill? All these young people cannot be members of the trade union. There is a danger that the senior members in the department, who are members of a trade union, will be much harder on those young people than the employers. Youngsters when they start work must do a little of everything. Often they are kicked around the place by people from the foreman down. I would not like it if these were the people to decide if the young people are getting justice. This is a most important point.

A young boy, who must work to help his parents would be very slow to report this state of affairs. He cannot depend on these people for justice. It is only natural that they would try to get as much as they can out of him. I have seen youngsters employed in garages where the foremen were determined to get as much out of them as they could. The young people were often doing a little of every job. We could not expect the employer to say that they were overworked. We must be very careful about this and ensure that this Bill is enforced properly.

Young people in rural Ireland have been brought up in a very nice environment. I am opposed to bringing too many of them into towns because there is a danger that there is not enough to occupy their time after school. In country areas they will be able to help the farmer bring in the cows. I want to make sure this Bill will not stop this man from giving employment to these youngsters for fear that he will not be carrying out the regulations under this Bill and so could be summoned. How will we ensure that employers are giving justice to young people?

I am 100 per cent behind the Minister in bringing in a Bill to do away with the slavery of young people. Many young people for various economic reasons, or because they do not like school, must go to work. I have heard from many of these people that their first few years in employment were hard years and nobody cared about them.

There is not much we can do about young people going abroad. The majority of our students like to do so. Many of them ask their Deputies to get them holiday employment. Who will determine the proper wage for them? During the summer holidays many of them are employed at a very low wage. This must be gone into very carefully. We must not jeopardise their chances of casual employment and at the same time we must ensure that they are not expected to work for a slave wage.

I foresee many difficulties in ensuring that the spirit and the principles of this Bill are carried through. No honest man, or any man with a social conscience, could disagree with this Bill, but it will be very difficult to enforce justly. It should be studied very carefully on Committee Stage. Every Deputy will agree that this legislation is needed. I regret it was not introduced 40 years ago when it was even more necessary. Very few young people nowadays would tolerate those conditions. Nowadays if a young man was not employed under reasonable conditions he would tell the boss he was going home. That is good. As I said before, there may be the odd young person who for economic reasons must work. A periodic inspection should be undertaken. Not every young person will report his employer. Suppose such a person reported to an inspector that three men in his job were asking him to do everything. If the men heard of that they could make things even tougher for him. I sympathise with the Minister in trying to solve this problem.

We are all very good at making grand statements of principle but it is very difficult to implement them. This Bill will be very difficult to implement. It will be difficult to ensure that justice is done to everyone. Every Deputy will give the Minister every assistance possible during the Committee Stage to ensure that the principles of this Bill are enforced.

There are many types of employment in rural and urban Ireland. Nobody wants to see a young lad employed in a pub until 11 o'clock at night. That is not fit employment for any young boy. There are certain jobs which will take one or two hours an evening and are very good for young fellows. Of course, he should be paid a reasonable amount for this casual labour. I would not like to see a section in this Bill which would prevent a man from giving casual employment to a young lad.

I congratulate the Minister on this Bill. I also congratulate Deputy Dowling who made some very good points which I had intended to raise. This Bill which states in plain language what it intends to do, is needed, but I appreciate the difficulties involved in implementing principles in it.

Minister for Labour (Mr. M. O'Leary)

I thank Deputies for their reception of this Bill. Deputy Callanan was right when he said that it would be a difficult Bill to enforce. It is a first step and attempts to deal with a problem on which we have not had any legislation for many years. This is an area in which we do not have statistics. We do not know the full extent of the employment of young people, the categories of age groups involved. Therefore the Bill is subject to criticism from both sides. One side claims it does not go far enough and the other side claims it goes too far.

I should like to reassure Deputy Callanan on the question of the employment of youth in rural Ireland. There is power given to me in section 16 to make exceptions. Deputies are correct in saying that this is a Bill that requires more attention on the Committee Stage. I propose on Committee Stage to go in greater detail into some of the questions raised here. If there are amendments put forward which would strengthen the general direction of the legislation I will have no hesitation in accepting them.

Deputy Dowling mentioned the fines and said they could have been made more severe. I will certainly have a look at this point again but I would remind Deputies that the fine of £25 for a first offence can be multiplied by continuing fines for recurring offences and there is the provision for a second offence fine of £50 and thereafter at a rate of £10 per day. Of course it will be open to the courts to give such fines, to impose such fines in respect of each individual employee. However I will have a look at the question of the penalties once more.

It is my intention shortly to publish a booklet on workers and their rights. It will be a short booklet that will explain the legal entitlements of a worker on entering a job, the things that are his right under conditions of employment and factories legislation and the surrounding industrial relations legislation. This booklet will be available to the worker on application. We also have in mind, on the enactment of this legislation, to produce a small précis of the legislation to be made available to youth organisations. Indeed there is reference in the legislation to consultation with the social partners. The Bill was circulated on the day of the conference of the National Federation of Youth Clubs in Gormanston. I took the opportunity of announcing there that I had circulated the Bill on that day to Deputies. I made it clear to that organisation of youth clubs that copies of the Bill were available for discussion and I took the opportunity to distribute copies to the delegates present. I would be very happy to hear any representations from any youth organisations on the aspect of this legislation which they consider could be improved.

Deputy O'Brien said that the hours per day mentioned appeared to be too long in view of the training courses in which young people might be involved. It must be remembered that a training period would be included in the hours at work.

Deputy Patterson asked who would decide under section 4 that non-industrial work was not harmful. I would have the job of declaring whether work came into that category and obviously I would have to have the advice of people skilled in this area before coming to a decision.

Deputy Burke mentioned the question of temporary employment. I would remind him that it comes in many and varied patterns and durations. Some forms in public houses may be undesirable on health or indeed on moral grounds, but section 6 gives me power to set a higher minimum age, and this could be coupled with stricter enforcement based on more stringent requirements on the evidence of age. Deputy Pattison asked that we should have a requirment placed on the employer that full records of the young people in his employment should be sent on, as he said, to the local labour office. However, we do not have departmental offices in that sense. He may have in mind referring it to the local manpower office. I will have a look at that idea of transmitting such details to some central section. One of the besetting problems in starting legislation in this area is the absence of information on the extent of the problem. One may only rely on the complaints available to one. I am not suggesting that employers in certain areas I have mentioned are generally guilty or even that a majority are guilty. I do not think that is the case, but I would say that on the number of complaints we have received there is cause for unease in certain of the areas I have mentioned. I think Deputy Pattison mentioned the Holidays Act. I do not think, on first reception of the idea at any rate, that the idea of having different qualifying hours under different Acts for people under 15 and 16 and 16 to 18 years would be in the best interests of our legislation. However, we will have a look at that again.

Deputy Moore mentioned school attendance officers. We have been in touch informally with the Dublin school attendance officer and we looked at some of the reports available from the school attendance officers around the country.

We had a useful debate on this proposed legislation. Many of the points made are interesting for their own sake and I will consider whether these suggestions can be incorporated to strengthen the legislation on the Committee Stage. As I said, there are two views on legislation of this kind. One school of thought is that it does not go far enough and another is that it goes too far. Although legislation has existed in the past partially covering certain of these areas—the hours that were laid down under that legislation are longer than those set down here—legislation which has been in existence for almost 30 years, we can refer to this as a new area for social legislation. Therefore I would be inclined at this stage to say that we should wait until records become available, to see the inspectorate enforce this legislation over, say, a year and then see what amendments are suggested in the light of experience whether new legislation is necessary and whether we need an extension of what we have here. I have given myself ample powers here to extend it in certain areas, with of course the approval of the House, if we find in the light of experience, that those changes and extensions are necessary.

This Bill is merely a first step in regard to the employment of young people. When all the facts I have mentioned become more readily available and when we have the possibility of analysing records which become available to us I would envisage further action being taken. Of course, I can vary the standards concerning working hours. I have given myself that power in this legislation. In the case of important changes I would be required by section 27 to place draft variation orders before each House. In this way or through the introduction of a new Bill I would be willing to make any changes which would be warranted. Generally I feel that in making desirable changes which would have the genuine support of the entire community a Minister must assess the current situation and propose reasonable advances on it. It is apparent that legislation in this area, if it does not enjoy general community support, will be to no avail.

Significant improvements for young employees in shops, hotels and restaurants are being made. This is the first step forward and when we, as a community, act fully within the letter and spirit of the law we can embark on additional improvements in minimum standards with regard to conditions of employment. It may be that after a year's working of this legislation, if passed, we will see that improvements should be made in certain of the joint industrial committees attached to the Labour Court relating to areas where young people have been overworked. Perhaps that may be the avenue we will choose after a year's experience of the operation of this legislation. On Committee Stage I would be quite happy to consider, on their merits, any amendments brought forward by Deputies opposite.

In my opening remarks I said that while our system of employer/ employee relations generally accepts the position of unions to be the shield of working people's rights I also made the point—which may have been misunderstood by Deputies opposite—that in the new, proliferating distributive forms which have come into being in many of the new centres recently union organisation is not strong. The point I was making was that since union organisation is not adequate in these areas, it behoves the public authorities to step in with legislation to protect the exploited. We do not have final statistics on the extent of this social problem, we only have the complaints made and the experience of youth officers throughout the country. There is also the general desirability to have legislation in this area when we consider that almost 30 years have passed without any intervention by the public authorities.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 28th January, 1975.