Vote 9: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; for the expenditure arising from damage to the property of External Governments; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

—(The Tánaiste.)

Mrs. Burke

The main problem in relation to this Estimate in my constituency is drainage. Considerable lip-service has been given to this matter over many years but little or nothing has been done to alleviate the problem.

We heard of cost-benefit analysis and so on from the previous Parliamentary Secretary. It is most unfair to expect farmers in Roscommon to pay rates on land under water for at least five months of the year. Last September, during the unusual flooding, I visited an area in south Roscommon. I was appalled to see hay the farmers thought they had saved drifting away on the Shannon and, at the same time, see pleasure boats cruising upstream. We have our priorities all wrong. I do not object to cruisers but the Office of Public Works, together with the ESB and the Department of Transport and Power—those bodies responsible for maintaining the level of the river to facilitate tourists—should safeguard the farmers land in these areas. There should be greater co-ordination between them to ensure that sluice gates are open at the proper times in order to prevent a build-up of water which worsens the flooding.

When the economic situation permits, I hope money will be made available to drain not alone the Shannon but other tributaries also, such as the Lung which also affects farmers' land. The Parliamentary Secretary, being from the west, knows how valuable is every acre of land to the farmers in the area. Being a practical man, I am sure he will ensure that funds will be made available for drainage as soon as possible. I do not expect him to do so within a year or two because this problem has been neglected by his predecessors for at least 50 years. The people affected have been very patient but patience can wear out, particularly when people are subjected to such hardship.

Many national schools need to be replaced, to get away from the 19th-century buildings. Our Garda force are doing an excellent job and, with regard to barracks, they deserve the best. I would appeal to the Office of Public Works to expedite demolition of such old buildings and replace them by modern ones, with modern amenities. It seems a pity that a lot of our ancient monuments and ring forts are being lost to the nation through agricultural development. They should be carefully preserved by the Monuments Branch of the Office of Public Works.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the excellent job he is doing. We expect that, in the next few years, we shall be complimenting him on the drainage of the Shannon.

Mr. Hussey

I should like to join the previous speaker in extending congratulations to the Minister. I think it is the first time I spoke on this Estimate since his appointment. Indeed, I join with the previous speaker also in hoping that, within the next few years, we shall be congratulating him on the drainage of the Shannon, which constitutes a major problem in the west. My main grievance speaking on this Estimate is that drainage seems to be the Cinderella of the Office of Public Works. Over the last ten years we discover that the sum of £17 million has been provided for drainage, which is merely a drop in the ocean. Not nearly sufficient money is provided for this very important work. We know drainage is very important, particularly now that agricultural land has become so valuable. I realise the difficulty of the Parliamentary Secretary trying to get money from the Minister for Finance. In that context, I think a Minister should be in charge of this Office, it being such an important one. Perhaps next year the Taoiseach would consider promoting the Parliamentary Secretary. If he did so, I am sure he would be able to get much more money for this important work. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary would agree that he could spend the sum of £17 million in Galway and Mayo, perhaps even in Mayo alone, where there are still important works to be completed, when I am sure the people of Galway would benefit also.

In my part of the constituency, the drainage it is hoped to carry out is tied up with the Suck and the Shannon. We get the same stereotype replies from the Office of Public Works whenever we make representations on drainage in the northern part of County Galway. There is an area extending from Glenamaddy, back into Creggs, Ballinamore Bridge right into the Suck. I refer to the Shivin and Killine Rivers. It is an area with a large number of small farmers dependent solely on the land for their source of income. Most of the year that land is completely flooded. When we make representations on their behalf we are told this river cannot be drained until such time as the Suck is done, and the Suck is tied up with the Shannon. I cannot understand why the Office of Public Works could not clear the main river; even if the silt was taken up from the river, cutting off the branches of trees that have fallen into it to give the watercourse a clear run. I do not think that would involve any great expenditure. There is no need to enter into the question of cost-benefit analysis or anything like that because everybody living along the banks of those rivers realises the importance of an acre of land and on draining the water off it. Most of the farmers in that area feel that if the main watercourse was cleared it would ease the situation, it would abolish flooding and, in turn, they could organise schemes under the land project. They have applied to undertake a major scheme in that area but again the question of cost-benefit analysis arises. I am informed by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and his Department that it is doubtful that that scheme will be done unless a grant is made available by him. I know it is not the Parliamentary Secretary's field but I mention it merely in passing. It is an area of contention; if you like, it is a depressed area and one about which we should be very concerned. A lot of time is spent on this question of cost-benefit analysis. I do not know who was the genius who introduced this into the Office of Public Works. I know it was not the Parliamentary Secretary. Far too much time is wasted on it. Schemes are held up for years until such time as the results of these cost-benefit analyses are made known and then a decision is taken as to whether a scheme is justified. All of the major rivers to be cleaned, particularly in the west—I have mentioned the Shivin, the Killine, the Suck; the Dunkellin is another—have been held up for the same reason.

Anybody who knows the farmers in that area will realise that any money spent on drainage there is money well spent. The Board of Works, without any cost-benefit analysis, could proceed with the drainage of these rivers, clear the main course and then ensure that every farmer would reclaim his own parcel of land. He could get grants for that from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries under the land project scheme. At a time when farmers are crying out for extra land in order to qualify as development farmers we should not have acres and acres of land in the west of Ireland still waterlogged. Particularly when travelling by train you can see the difference in the land when you cross the Shannon; you see the rushes and furze. There seems no hope of doing anything with it unless the main water courses are cleared. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to devote a major part of his time to this problem. He comes from the area concerned and he knows the problem and I am sure he is sympathetic. It is important to introduce a little common sense into these matters. The officials, perhaps, are doing the best they can but one should not always be said and led by them because the man on the spot who has been born and reared in the area realises the importance of land. Much of the time spent on the cost-benefit analysis is badly spent because there is no need for it.

It is very important to preserve our national monuments for further generations as a link with the past. Any money spent for that purpose is also well spent and provides good employment.

As regards schools, more co-operation is needed between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Education. We still have a large number of dilapidated schools. The Department of Education should inform the Board of Works well in advance about where they intend to build schools in the next five years or ten years and state the type of school whether comprehensive, whether large or small. There should be more co-operation in this field between these two bodies. The old schools should be demolished as soon as possible because they are not fit to have children and teachers confined in them for long periods. I hope that in the next few years we shall be rid of many such schools.

Mr. Calleary

Probably no Department has such a wide range of activities as the Office of Public Works. The Parliamentary Secretary spoke of a great variety of projects ranging from very large harbour works to maintenance of parks and gardens. The skills and talents of officials and members of the Board of Works are probably much wider than in any other Department. Where we have had major drainage schemes the effect that those drafted into the area have had on the life of the area is tremendous in many cases. Ballina has been left some very good legacies by the officials, engineers and tradesmen who came to the area for the Moy drainage scheme. I believe that applies to any drainage area. One of the first chairmen of the association for the mentally handicapped in Ballina was an Office of Public Works engineer. Others, by their interest in community work, left very tangible results of their stay in the Ballina area.

The Parliamentary Secretary is a new broom and I would ask him to examine the function of the Board of Works, analyse it and see if its talents and expertise are being properly directed and used. It is time to see if wastage of effort can be eliminated, time to redefine—or, perhaps, define —the role of the Board of Works. I note that the Parliamentary Secretary said at the end of his speech that the Office of Public Works would be responsible for the expenditure of approximately £35 million this year. Yet, its own Estimate is only slightly more than half that. If you take into account the fact that its engineers, its officers, its architects and experts are involved in a good deal of design and planning in other Departments one can see the tremendous stress there is on it. Quite bluntly, much of the design work done for other Departments is abortive. One has only to go back on the number of projects which it receives from, say, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and see the toing and froing that goes on between the Department and the Office of Public Works about the types of piers and slips that are to be designed to realise how much very precious time and talent is wasted. It is only when the various Departments have finally decided on what they want done that a specific brief should be given to the Office of Public Works. This would put an end to the practice of some Departments of using the Office of Public Works as a whipping boy. When one makes representations about delay in regard to work on schools or piers the Office of Public Works is cited as the cause of the delay.

I have a number of specific cases in mind, notably a new school for Swinford and the erection of a pier for fishermen at Kilcummin. The blame for the delay in regard to these projects is being laid at the door of the Office of Public Works although to my knowledge the office is not to blame.

It has happened all too often that schemes have been rejected as being too costly and smaller schemes have been substituted. As a result of representations and pressure being brought to bear, additions are made to the smaller schemes and the final cost is greater than the estimated cost of the original scheme and the finished product is less suitable.

I know the Parliamentary Secretary's hands are tied but I would ask him to consult the Departments and to arrange that a scheme submitted by, say, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries would be carried out in sections over a number of years. I specifically refer to Killala. The cost of the scheme there was roughly £28,000. It has escalated to £128,000. If we in Killala had known that money was available at that time we would have looked for something completely different. We would have asked that the pier be extended 600 to 700 yards out as far as Inch. That would have obviated the necessity for dredging and would have provided, admittedly inside a bar, 30 ft of water at any stage of the tide, which would be much better than the situation which now obtains.

If I may be parochial for a few moments and ask the Parliamentary Secretary's indulgence, I would refer again to Kilcummin. I have suggested already that the Office of Public Works has been blamed for the delay. In March, 1973, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries were represented at a meeting held in Kilcummin. The fishermen were objecting to a proposal which had been prepared by the Office of Public Works on the instructions of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. The proposal was for the provision of a slip and some ancillary works. The fishermen quite rightly said that they wanted a pier, not a slip. The pier would allow them to land at any stage of the tide. At present the fishermen have to wait out until such time as the tide is suitable, in a bay in which over 20 persons have been drowned in the last number of years, a bay that is subject to sudden swells.

The Parliamentary Secretary was good enough to come to meet the fishermen there. Now the fishermen are asking what is the position. Three to four weeks ago with some of the representatives I met the Parliamentary Secretary here. At that stage we were awaiting a report from the Office of Public Works. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, who knows the location and is fully aware of the facts, to expedite the report.

Mr. Kenny

This is not the coast erosion matter?

Mr. Calleary

No. This is in reference to the pier. I would ask him to expedite the report so that work on the pier can proceed.

Reference was made during this debate to the fact that money had been provided for Kilcummin. I cannot see where money is provided.

Mr. Kenny

I think it was provided and then the fishermen asked that their representations should be considered.

Mr. Calleary

It was two years ago.

Mr. Kenny

It is there all the time. In my reply I will clarify the position, if I can.

Mr. Calleary

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned coast erosion in that area. I realise his difficulty in regard to this scheme. It was for that reason that I asked Mayo County Council to do part of the scheme. The Parliamentary Secretary has been on the site with me and knows the problems. There are six or seven houses threatened by the sea. He knows that the seawater coming in the back door has met water that is coming in the front door in at least one or two of these houses. The Parliamentary Secretary also knows that in certain conditions of tide and wind this will always happen.

I welcome the provision in regard to the work at Enniscrone. I hope the work will begin as soon a possible because Enniscrone is a second home for many people from Ballina. All of us are concerned about the erosion that is taking place there.

Sometime ago I mentioned Killala pier. I have been approached by fishermen there with a view to having maintenance work carried out in the channel. I understand that the pier has not yet been taken over by Mayo County Council. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to arrange to have the mud that is beginning to accumulate in portion of the channel removed.

Mr. Kenny

Where?

Mr. Calleary

In the channel from Killala to Inch. I would also ask him, in his dual capacity as Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Office of Public Works and as a member of Mayo County Council to expedite discussion between his officials and the county engineer in relation to the work that remains to be done at Killala.

There are a number of people who were employed for a long time by the Office of Public Works on the Moy drainage who are awaiting gratuities. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to endeavour to ensure that these gratuities can be paid as soon as possible. I shall give him specific names, if he wishes.

I would ask him, also, to treat sympathetically claims that are coming in late. Admittedly, these are arriving after the statutory date but they are being made in good faith because the people concerned were not aware of there being a closing date. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary has dealt with some of these claims and I trust he will act similarly in respect of others.

Yes and to the road down to the Downhill Hotel. The houses in this area have been flooded time and again. The Board of Works should carry out some work that would alleviate the problem.

I mentioned earlier that very often the Office of Public Works are blamed by the various parties for causing delays. In this regard I understand that the Department of Education are awaiting designs in respect of a boys' national school at Swinford. A site has been bought and prepared but a new plan is required. I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will endeavour to have the matter expedited.

The same sort of situation exists in Ballyhaunis, although a recent local development may have the effect of postponing for a short while any development in the area.

Most Deputies from the west refer to arterial drainage. In this regard we might tidy up the Arterial Drainage Act so as to enable it to comply with present day standards. This might avoid some of the very long delays that occur.

Much has been said regarding cost/ benefit analysis. Unfortunately, I was not here during Deputy Mrs. Burke's contribution but I was listening to Deputy Hussey and I would have to agree with the points he made. If we were to have a reappraisal of main drainage and if we were to do less than has been done in respect of major jobs in the past, much of the flooding that is the bane of farmers in the west could be alleviated. I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary has commented on the Corrib-Mask region and I hope that the cost/ benefit analysis in this case will be ready shortly. I hope, too, that work will commence on the scheme in the near future. It is very disheartening for farmers to have half their acreage under water. When the water recedes the farmers manure the land and it is very discouraging when a flash flood literally washes it away. Because of improper drainage hundreds of pounds are thrown away.

The Lung River is also causing concern. About a year-and-a-half ago I attended a meeting in Ballaghaderreen and an opinion was expressed that something less than a major job would meet the situation. A survey should be carried out with that in mind—not the usual survey for the arterial drainage works but one that would take into account some of the areas that are causing the flooding. The local farmers and the Lung Drainage Committee could show an inspector the sections that are causing most of the flooding.

There has been considerable debate in the Ballina area with regard to the abstraction of water from Loughs Conn and Cullin. The level of the lake was set by the Moy drainage scheme and, while I am satisfied that any water taken for Asahy and other areas by Mayo County Council will not materially affect the level of the lake, I would ask the Office of Public Works to request the resident engineer on the Moy drainage scheme to ensure that the level remains as it is now. This should be done in co-operation with the local authority. I know the Parliamentary Secretary can do nothing about the fine weather we have had and that it is inevitable that a certain amount of water will evaporate but perhaps he would ensure that the Office of Public Works have periodic consultations with the local authority on this matter.

Some time ago the Parliamentary Secretary told me that although plans had been prepared for reconstruction work at Creevagh national school he could not go ahead because he had not consent from the Department of Education. The parents in the area have asked that the school remains open and I understand the Minister is considering changing his mind. It that happens and if the school remains open I would ask that the necessary repairs be carried out as a matter of urgency.

In common with Deputy Hussey and others I am glad to see that work will continue to be carried out on the preservation of national monuments. We owe it to the people who will come after us to ensure that the best examples of the work carried out by our craftsmen remain in good condition. I do not know if the following matter comes within the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Secretary but if it does I would ask him to consider seriously placing preservation orders on the "digs" at Ballyglass, Ballycastle, and at Kilbride, Ballyconlon. The sites have yielded a considerable amount of data.

I am glad to see that the Ballyhaunis exchange is to be improved and I hope that the money provided for this year will be spent as quickly as possible. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that the Office of Public Works co-operate fully with the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards so that their expertise can be used to help solve some of the problems the Office of Public Works have to meet. I make this comment from personal experience. I refer to the water pollution problem at Behy national school. Apparently the Office of Public Works were unable to advise the manager on the steps to be taken. I know there was some reason because they were waiting to get work done in relation to water pollution at a Garda station in the midlands and some place in Wales was involved in this matter. The Institute for Industrial Research and Standards can give us the benefit of their expertise and if a problem similar to the one at Behy recurs the local architect should refer it specifically to the institute.

Mr. Kenny

Is the Deputy referring to typhoid?

Mr. Calleary

One of my family had an unhappy experience as a result of what happened at Behy. Frankly there could have been an outbreak of typhoid because of the length of time the matter was allowed to hang fire.

Some time ago a proposal was made by the Killala Development Association to put two floors in the Round Tower in Killala. That matter was dropped but it may come before the Parliamentary Secretary again and I would ask him to give it sympathetic consideration. The tower is in a good state of preservation.

I am glad to see that the Department of Lands have finally moved to Castlebar. On behalf of the people of Mayo, I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his work in this respect and also the former Minister for Lands, Mr. Moran, for the part he played. We are lucky in having two people committed to decentralisation. It is interesting to note in a report out this morning that the opinion is that more decentralisation can do almost as much for an area as the establishment of new factories.

Mr. Kenny

That is right.

Mr. Calleary

The present Administration might continue the start made by the previous Government. I am glad the Board of Works have decided to put in a treatment sewerage plant in Muckross Castle. It is most important to preserve our clean waters and I hope this lead will be followed by other Government Departments. I also hope this is only a beginning and that this policy will be extended to many other areas. This type of treatment can be expensive but it would probably be a great deal more expensive in the future if we had to correct the pollution that will occur if such plants are not installed.

A number of speakers commented on the facilities, or lack of them, here in Leinster House. The Parliamentary Secretary said the problem is not easy of solution. The central heating appears to have some kind of devil in it. It always seems to be too hot and one is inclined to take off one's coat for the sake of comfort, but that should not be really necessary. It is not the answer. Perhaps during the Summer Recess, if we have any, and the way things are going, the prospect does not look too bright——

Mr. Kenny

It is not too good.

Mr. Calleary

——some overhaul of the central heating system could be carried out and an effort made to ensure proper control. I am glad there is provision for improving facilities for the Garda. Areas where the Garda are occupying very poor buildings should be dealt with as a matter of urgency. They should have the conditions a trade union would normally insist on for its members.

The policy of creating national parks is continuing. People now have more leisure and therefore more time for recreation. The Government lost a real opportunity in not acquiring Fota for the people of Cork and citizens generally. I can say this without being accused of self-interest. The amount required for its acquisition would have been pretty big but an opportunity like that will not present itself again. I am remote from the area and I cannot now be accused of being parochial. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would consider extending this policy of creating public parks to areas like Galway and Sligo. There are many fine places in the vicinity of both which could be acquired by the State for the benefit of the local people and, indeed, of the country as a whole.

There has been a good deal of controversy over the proposed concert hall. I think it is unwise to site it in Earlsfort Terrace. Quite a number of experts believe conversion will not be suitable. The money being spent on conversion would be better spent on the erection of a proper hall.

I hope, to use the Parliamentary Secretary's words, the Government do intend to do all they can to promote employment. Unemployment is one of our major ills. The schemes set out under this Estimate could help to alleviate unemployment.

Finally, I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his courtesy and co-operation and to thank, through him, the officials of the Office of Public Works for their courtesy and help. A great deal of good work is being done.

Mr. Noonan

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his very efficient handling of his office and for the courtesy he invariably extends to Deputies, deputations and the public generally at all times. If the example he sets were followed by some of his colleagues in Government that would make for far happier relations. I should also like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his very detailed knowledge of the working of the Office of Public Works and for his detailed knowledge of the countryside. Last Wednesday I was a member of a deputation to him and it was most encouraging to hear him talk about areas in County Limerick, areas the deputation were involved in and realise the knowledge he had of their problems. I take it he has made an in-depth study of the work of his Department.

There are however certain aspects of this Estimate on which I must take issue. One must approach it in the light of the Government thinking on inflation and what they have done about it. They tell us often enough that increases in the cost of living and unemployment are caused to a large extent by outside influences. Government Ministers tell us that 40 per cent of our problems are caused by outside influences. Therefore I must look at this Estimate in the light of those claims. This Estimate affects a large area where the Government can influence unemployment but one is shocked to see the irresponsibility displayed in the setting of priorities.

I am the very last person who would criticise expenditure on historical buildings, library facilities and work of a general restoration nature, but in a time of crisis such as we have at the moment we must have our priorities right. We all agree that money is scarce. We also agree that, where we can have an influence on the causes of our present troubles, we must watch where every penny is spent. It must be spent where the greatest financial return can be gained and also where the money spent can benefit the people.

It is astonishing the amount of money which is spent on projects which are not of the greatest importance. In the Parliamentary Secretary's speech we notice items such as the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park, item 37, restoration of the picture gallery wing of Kilkenny Castle; item 39, proposals for a golf course at Island-bridge in the Phoenix Park extension; items 50 to 58, new works on certain national monuments; item 50, the visitors centre at Dunmore Cave, County Kilkenny; item 52, an unusual project jointly sponsored by Bord Fáilte and the Office of Public Works, where it is proposed to provide at Cahir Castle an exhibition centre devoted to the cultural and physical heritage of our people; item 53, the visitors' centre at the Rock of Cashel and item 58, the restoration of the casino at Marino.

I have no doubt that from a cultural standpoint these are all laudable projects, but when we are experiencing such great difficulties can they possibly be called projects of the highest priority? The attitude of the Government in regard to their priorities in this Vote shows a great sense of irresponsibility. It can only be called fiscal lunacy.

There are two things which strike me very forcibly in this Estimate. I have the honour to represent an area made up of new building developments and farming country. I see very little for the people I represent. I am not talking of the Limerick area alone, although I have a few things to say to the Parliamentary Secretary so far as that area is concerned, but I am talking generally about such areas throughout the country.

Early on in the Parliamentary Secretary's Estimate speech we come across the idea of having amenities to provide recreation and pleasure for the limited few, or the in-group. In my dual capacity as a county councillor and a Dáil Deputy, in my own area I come across the problem of providing amenities for people in newly built-up areas. For years we have decried the bad planning which has led to slums being created. Very little thought was given to the provision of recreational facilities. The idea was to get as many buildings into as small an area as possible. No consideration was given to the finer things of life. There was no planning to meet recreational problems in the free time which has now become available with shorter working hours. The Office of Public Works should involve themselves more deeply in providing facilities in housing schemes.

People who apply for planning permission must leave at least 10 per cent of the ground as an open space. There are many ways of getting around that. Nobody can be ordered to give land for larger recreational spaces. No provision is made for playing pitches and running tracks. These areas are far too large for the local authorities to develop them. The Office of Public Works should interest themselves more deeply in this type of basic amenity. Naturally I do not put this forward as a profit-making exercise but the benefit which would accrue if people could live happier and more contented lives is immeasurable. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider these ideas and these suggestions very carefully.

I am very interested in the provision of a Garda station in Limerick city. Limerick city is not in my constituency but many of the gardaí who are working in the present building in Limerick live in my constituency and therefore they are my electors. The gardaí in our area are expected to work without complaint in very bad buildings. They are not in a position to strike. Their sense of duty prevents them from taking industrial action and, therefore, it is easy for the Government to forget them.

On page 12 of this document, on items 69 and 70, in the third paragraph I see that work on the new divisional headquarters in Limerick city is well under way and considerable progress is expected this year. The building, which is on the site of the former St. Munchin's College, will accommodate over 120 personnel. That is virtually all we hear about our Garda station in Limerick. Let me give the House some of the background to this. The Garda in Limerick have worked and lived in a building which might be described as second-class stable accommodation. They have complained.

Mr. Coughlan

How long have they been complaining?

Mr. Noonan

For quite a long time.

Mr. R. Barry

For 25 years.

Mr. Coughlan

When the Deputy's present leader was in the Office of Public Works something was done, but nothing was done since until we went in and we are doing something about it now.

Mr. Lemass

Who acquired the site and drew up the plans?

Mr. Noonan

Deputy Coughlan is under a misapprehension.

Mr. Coughlan

Leave it to people who know something about it.

We now come to works for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for which a total of £615,000 has been provided.

A sum of £615,000 is very low for works for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

On the subject of arterial drainage, I am glad the Maigue drainage scheme is under way and I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to give the necessary finance so that the scheme can be continued and completed in the shortest possible time. I have already indicated that the benefits from this scheme will be enormous in so far as realisation of the full potential of agricultural land is concerned.

Under subhead G.1, £70,000 is being provided for hydrometric studies which precede arterial drainage. That amount at today's spending value on such works is very low. Under subhead G.2, the allocation for drainage works in progress is £1,720 million, an increase of more than 25 per cent on the previous year. That looks dramatic in terms of money until one remembers that because of Government mismanagement general costs have risen by that percentage. Therefore, instead of progressing in relation to arterial drainage, we have taken a step backwards. We have to juxtapose this very necessary and urgent work with the very laudable provision of money for cultural works.

Under subhead G.3, we learn that the cost of drainage maintenance is recoverable from county councils and is brought to credit as an appropriation-in-aid. This has been a bone of contention not only in the Limerick County Council but in county councils throughout the country. It will cost the Limerick County Council 45p in the £ to maintain drainage schemes in their area, and on top of that, county council engineering staffs have not the slightest say in how this money for maintenance is to be spent.

I appreciate that it is not proper on an Estimate to suggest amendments to the Act, but I suggest this money should be provided by the Exchequer rather than from local funds. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary, therefore, to consider such an amendment, with others I have mentioned, to the 1945 Arterial Drainage Act if and when he brings in an amending Bill. County councils are already working under extreme stress without having to provide large sums for work which should be regarded as a national priority, a national need. Drainage maintenance is essential for our agricultural economy and it should be financed nationally. I am sorry to say that the Office of Public Works have been displaying a rather flippant attitude to their responsibilities. They have been neglecting priorities and have been rather inflexible in their approach to drainage problems throughout the country.

The Parliamentary Secretary received a deputation from my area on Wednesday and a case was made to him in regard to problems in Foynes, Abbeyfeale and other areas in west Limerick. We tried to get a way around the Act in order to solve the severe problems suffered by the people in those areas. It was pointed out to us that there is no national or county source to which these people could apply for redress. It is a matter in respect of which the Office of Public Works should provide short-term solutions. They should go into such areas and do maintenance jobs which to them might seem minor but which are major issues as far as the local people are concerned. If the Parliamentary Secretary is considering amending the 1945 Act this is another matter he should think about.

Although Limerick city is not in my area it is my nearest shopping centre. If any Government Departments or State-sponsored bodies are considering decentralisation, Limerick city is the ideal spot. We have the space, office accommodation, sporting, educational and other facilities. We are adjacent to a major airport. Limerick city will give these Departments a ceád míle fáilte. Everybody knows that Dublin is top heavy. The Government should spread their offices, facilities and people all over the country. A start was made in the west and, perhaps, the next place will be Limerick.

Mr. Lemass

As Deputies are no doubt aware, I have been ill and my doctor gave me permission to come here today to make my contribution to this Estimate. It the Parliamentary Secretary will forgive the green eye of the little yellow god I will make my contribution.

Unfortunately, as this is a limited debate, the nice things I will be saying about the Parliamentary Secretary will be the first to suffer. My notes were made in a hurry and if I seem to be hopping backwards and forwards, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will bear with me. He has been in office long enough to know that the standard of living is very important, but the standards by which we live are far more important. The Office of Public Works makes a very important contribution to this concept.

When I see things like national parks being used for purposes for which they were not intended I not unnaturally worry. The Phoenix Park is owned by the State. It is not a possession of the Dublin Corporation, yet it provides a major road link from Islandbridge to Castleknock and from Islandbridge to Cabra Gate. If the Park authorities decided to close these roads to through traffic, the corporation's lack of proper road planning would be very seriously exposed. Indeed, the misplanning of the roadways by the Dublin Corporation is further exposed by their decision to interfere with the first national golf course on land that cannot be economically developed as football pitches because of the steep gradients. If the corporation encroach on this land, they should provide at least for the expense of a footbridge across the Liffey so that the Office of Public Works land on the north side could be incorporated into the proposed golf course. The reason why that land was not incorporated in the plans which were in operation when the Parliamentary Secretary took office was that the cost of the footbridge would have been very high and we found we could manage without it, even though it shortened the course.

There is also a system in Germany which may be able to shore up this proposed motorway from Sarsfield Road to Lucan without encroaching upon as much land as is now planned. The Parliamentary Secretary should appeal to the Minister for Local Government because the corporation have not compulsory purchase rights over any State-owned property without the consent of the Minister for Local Government. I understand the Minister has given that consent, probably without consultation with the Parliamentary Secretary. It is a shame to see such parks as the Phoenix Park being used as major highways when they were intended as places of recreation for visitors and the people of our city.

I was also concerned when I heard that the Parliamentary Secretary would succumb to pressure by the Muckross House Committee. I was in Killarney not too long ago and I heard a rumour that a form of commercialisation will be allowed there which I, when in office, resisted. I hope the rumour is not correct. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply will assure me that it was false. I went to look at the Blue Pool and a magnificent job has been done restoring it. It is a delight to see the clear water and the nature trail gave tremendous pleasure. That work had been agreed to by the previous Administration but it had been carried out by the present Administration. The thinning out of the trees at the car parks behind the Muckross Hotel is very helpful, although I think a few more might have been taken down. Although this has nothing to do with the Parliamentary Secretary, the view has been greatly improved since the Europa Hotel decided to paint the roofs of their chalets green. They no longer stick out like a sore thumb.

As this was Office of Public Works land, the planting of trees was allowed only at a time when it was necessary to get people back to work. In our urgency we can be accused of bad planning because we allowed commercial trees to be planted in our nature spots. I was very pleased with the work that had been done in Killarney. The waterfall at Torc to which the Parliamentary Secretary refers in his brief will fit in very well. The water is supplied by gravity. It was very well concealed by the builder, who has taken a very personal interest in it to ensure that this construction will be a tribute to his good taste. I am sure it will be, although it was not finished when I was there. If it is to be finished as I saw it, there is no doubt that this builder will be sought after by people who have permission to build in any of the amenity areas around there. You can get planning permission in a very few places, but the odd one comes up from time to time.

I am concerned about the Kenmare estate. The Parliamentary Secretary did not refer to it. This land was taken over about two and a half years ago and there is a building on it. I should like to know how it is being incorporated in the national park. What are the proposals for the house? Could it be developed as a holiday residence for the President or the Taoiseach, or a residence for foreign statesmen visiting here? Could it be developed as a national museum as distinct from the folk museum we have in Muckross House? It would be a pity if this very valuable land which was acquired at a reasonable price, according to going values, should be allowed to lie there and not be properly developed.

When I read the Parliamentary Secretary's statement it struck me that I could have made the very same speech three years ago. This indicates to me that very little has been done. This may not be the fault of the Parliamentary Secretary. I imagine it would be difficult to work under the Minister for Finance since I doubt that he would understand the problems of park development. In times of economic strain the Office of Public Works are the first to be cut financially. The 25 per cent referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary just meets inflation. Even if it does meet inflation, there should be more evidence of activity. There is very little in the Parliamentary Secretary's statement that is new or was not sanctioned by the previous Administration.

We tried an experiment towards the end of my term of office. We had complaints about the conditions of the Garda barracks and stations throughout the country. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is still hearing those complaints. There were so many substandard Garda buildings that nobody was satisfied with the progress the Office of Public Works were making in replacing them. The Commissioners came up with the idea of consulting with the various system builders. We ordered six or eight identical system-built barracks simultaneously and we saved money and got them up quickly. I have heard of complaints from the general public about this type of structure, but I have heard no complaints from the Garda authorities or from the gardaí themselves. They all seem very pleased with this new accommodation. I wonder would the Parliamentary Secretary consider providing more of these system-built stations, because they save money and speed up matters?

The proposed new building in the Dublin metropolitan area seems to be taking a very long time to get under way. I should like to see work started on that site pretty soon. In the Dublin metropolitan area, in Dublin Castle and other places, the Garda have serious grievances about the accommodation available to them. As I said, there may have been some complaints about the system-built barracks by the public but there were no complaints from the Garda. In this case there are complaints by the public and by the Garda. This discontent about the accommodation would be minimised if the actual physical work were seen to have started on the site. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to speed up this work to the best of his ability.

I assume that the code which was introduced for the disabled will apply to these new buildings. I should like to know how it has been working out. The intention was that every once in a while the code would be examined and amended if necessary. I should like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary or the Commissioners have been in touch with the Wheelchair Association, or other voluntary bodies of that nature, to find out where and how this code might be improved. The Parliamentary Secretary could do this on his own. He does not have to come before the House in relation to it. He should consult the appropriate bodies to see if they are satisfied with how the code is working. If they are anxious for improvements or changes, he should have them examined and make them where he finds them desirable. This matter was neglected for a long time. Whether the code is suitable and whether more physical work should be carried out in providing ramps or special toilets in existing public buildings should be examined.

It is nice to know that the 57 acres at Tara are in the possession of the State. I realise the Parliamentary Secretary and the Commissioners have a very difficult problem here. Even the little notices which were put up to identify where the great hall was, and where this that or the other was, had been knocked down and destroyed by vandals the last time I was there. There may be some way in which this type of vandalism can be prevented.

I realise that no development can take place to improve or reconstruct some of the former buildings until an archaeological survey has been carried out. That place will have to be surveyed over a long number of years. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could tell me what plans he has for such a survey. I assume there will be one. When this survey gets under way, I would be happy were it done in sections, so that, at no time, would the entire 57 acres be closed to the general public. I know many of the archaeologists would like to fence it all in and have it to themselves for the next 15 or 20 years, but that would be a selfish attitude. Were the survey carried out in stages there might be a lot to be learned about our heritage. Probably a lot of very valuable artifacts would be found and, as in Newgrange, we might discover that 6,000 years ago man did not hunt for food but for pleasure. We found that he ate grain, no sugar, and, therefore, had no cavities in his teeth; that he had pigs, goats, cattle and sheep. All of that was discovered by the survey carried out there and which, as far as I am aware, is still in progress.

I do not think an explanation has been advanced yet—if it has I should like to know—as to why at a certain time on a certain day the sun shines in on the main urn. Apparently, there is some reason for that but the last time I made inquiries there was still a lot of speculation about it and different theories being advanced.

Mr. Kenny

I am certain the Deputy does not expect the Office of Public Works to elucidate that problem which has puzzled every archaeological expert not alone here but in the world. They can only guess; I have my theory but I shall not disclose it.

Mr. Lemass

They could not come up with an answer for me when I was there and I have been curious about it ever since. I formed a theory also, but I am not an expert. It is encouraging to note that the work on Newgrange is progressing. I do not know whether they have yet figured out the pattern of the outer stones. But all the stones are there and no doubt, in this computerised age, they will be able to ascertain whether they were as in Asia or in zig-zags, as in other parts of Europe. All of these stones must be counted, measured and put back exactly as they were 6,000 years ago. I do not envy these people but they are dedicated and I am quite sure they will figure it out to everybody's satisfaction.

One matter which has concerned me for a considerable time is the future of Beggars' Bush barracks. It was decided that a memorial concert hall would be built there. Then there was rethinking with regard to expenditure, money shortage and so on and it was felt the expenditure of money on this project while people needed housing and so on was not justified. As we now know, the development never took place. This must be one of the most valuable sites in the city of Dublin. There is one office block constructed on it, which would not have interfered with the prospective concert hall. The neglect of this site for so many years is close on sacrilege. It is reasonable to argue that, with the rate of inflation of land, it is holding its value but we have no guarantee that land will continue to inflate at the same rate as the economy when people will have less money to spend. Perhaps the Office of Public Works might sell Beggars' Bush to Dublin Corporation for a mixed development—housing, perhaps a swimming pool and some shops. Perhaps they could use it for the construction of Government offices, although it seems somewhat too far out and valuable for that purpose. Or perhaps they could sell it commercially at a profit and devote the funds to some other useful purpose within the Office of Public Works. If the Parliamentary Secretary could give me any idea of what he intends doing about the Beggars' Bush site, I should be most appreciative because it is time some decisions were taken in regard thereto. I doubt very much if I would find fault with whatever might be done with it but I do find fault with its being left idle.

Another matter of concern to me is that, before I left that office, except for the crossing of a few "t's" and the dotting a few "i's", there was a Bill prepared by the Minister for Transport and Power to take charge of the Grand Canal. The only matter not finalised was that the Office of Public Works did not want the Royal Canal, the corporation did. I think a little of the Royal Canal was thought to be useful, a link somewhere down the country. That Bill was almost ready for introduction in this House at that time. Indeed, it would have been introduced before the change of Government but for the fact that we were endeavouring to satisfy the National Trust and other such people, indeed endeavouring to get agreement about it within the House here as well as with the voluntary bodies. But it seems merely to be collecting dust ever since. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would agitate with the Minister for Transport and Power to resurrect that Bill, remove the dust and finalise it. Indeed, some of the canal preservation people are losing confidence in the Office of Public Works. They have started to think that perhaps they would get a better deal from CIE than from the Office of Public Works because if they take that long to introduce a Bill, God knows how long it would take them to clean up the canal. If the Bill is to be allowed die a natural death, that should be said and we should know exactly where we stand.

There is another Act administered by the Office of Public Works which caused me great concern when it was my responsibility. I am sure it causes concern to the Parliamentary Secretary. I am sure the boys in Merrion Street are as happy as Larry because that Bill is on the Statute Book. I speak of the Coast Protection Act which I imagine is the most cumbersome legislation we will ever have had before this House. This very cumbersome Bill is discouraging to the local authority, in the first instance. Even if one makes a proposal to the Parliamentary Secretary, his office is so short-staffed of engineers experienced in this type of work that it takes months and sometimes years before the engineers go down to investigate the local authority proposal and decide what sort of priority it should be given. In the meantime, the coast is being eroded; houses are falling into the sea; I believe there is danger of half a village in Kerry going into the sea in the next few years. Golf courses are being eaten away; they get smaller every year in Bundoran and there are, I think, three holes off the golf course in Donegal. Unless we protect it, this is land we cannot retrieve. Therefore, I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to have this Bill redrafted and brought before the House so that work on coast protection can be carried out with reasonable speed and without too much of the red tape required under present provisions.

I am sorry that, in effect, a programme which had been started by Fianna Fáil is being utilised to reduce the amount of arterial drainage being done. The purpose of introducing a cost-benefit survey, which was my scheme, was not to help the Department of Finance hold up schemes. It was introduced because I felt that the way the Office of Public Works presented schemes to the Government long before my time was giving a false picture of the value of land drainage and that, in fact, arterial drainage was making a much greater contribution to the economy than it was credited with. I wanted to be able to produce facts and figures to the Minister for Finance. Twice I said to him that there was not enough money for arterial drainage. I once reached a stage when I nearly had to lay of some hundreds of men. Fortunately, I got a Supplementary Estimate that year. The new hydraulic diggers were working so much faster than the old drag lines that we were making greater progress. We still had to build bridges behind us and the money was being used up much more quickly.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to look at this matter again and see if he could do what I was trying to do—demonstrate to the Government that they are getting a better return on the capital invested in arterial drainage than it is credited with.

Mr. Kenny

Was it not the Minister for Finance who introduced this cost-benefit analysis?

Mr. Lemass

No, the Office of Public Works, with the consent of the Minister for Finance. I put up the idea. The analysis is being used now for the opposite purpose to that for which it was intended, to show that the State could justifiably invest more money in arterial drainage.

We have heard a good deal about the Fota estate. What is done is done but it is a great pity the arboretum was not taken over by the Department of Lands and the house taken over by the Office of Public Works especially when there are many valuable pictures at present on loan to Crawford's School of Art which could be returned to Fota. In addition, collections from the Natural History Museum could be displayed there. I am talking of pieces that are stored away because there is no space in which to exhibit them in the existing building.

As regards the Museum, the Parliamentary Secretary should do as the Office of Public Works are doing in regard to the art gallery in Kilkenny. Where there are local efforts, local or regional museums, these could be regarded as extensions of the National Museum. This avoids legislation. This is how the Kilkenny gallery will be given its pictures. Museum pieces now in storage could be sent on loan to these local museums and in this way the State could become involved with the local community and the local community could become involved with the history of the nation. The Parliamentary Secretary should examine the possibilities of proceeding in this way in the future. These museum pieces could be displayed for so many months in one centre and then brought to another location so that the greatest number of people possible with an interest in our Museum—and a great number are interested—could benefit from the State collection. The Parliamentary Secretary might see if this is a feasible proposition.

I do not know how the Kilkenny Castle art gallery is progressing. There was much delay at the beginning in getting suitable artists. I believe it is going ahead. I hope the Butler Society there are also proceeding with the work of raising money locally to restore portion of the castle.

That came up in the debate. I thought I would explain the history of it. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary has it on file.

I do not think there is sufficient provision for the preservation of national monuments. Good work has been done. It is dishonest to say that works that were completed before this administration took over are part of the contribution of the Office of Public Works to the European Heritage Year. There are films in the Parliamentary Secretary's Office which show me opening Cahir Castle.

Mr. Kenny

I did not see that.

Mr. Lemass

There is a photographic staff in the office. The Parliamentary Secretary should ask for a showing of films depicting him—the Parliamentary Secretary—performing official functions. Works are published in Oibre as our contribution to the European Heritage Year. This is all right, I suppose, for export but it will not fool anybody here. This work had been done before the year was even declared.

In regard to harbour work started by my predecessor and carried out during my term of office it seems to me that except where projects were under way there has been a general pull-back and slowing down of development. I am talking about harbours that had been approved and sanctioned by the previous Ministers for Agriculture and Fisheries and Finance. I would need a map. I am talking about the synchrolift in Killybegs. The metal poles were delivered before the Parliamentary Secretary took office and he was not in office many months when they were taken away. In reply to a question recently I was told that it is coming. Live horse and you will get grass. A very good programme was started. It should have been expanded rather than slowed down. Deputy Ray Burke has been waiting for nine months for a pile drive tester machine to come from Galway. I have heard him complain about it.

There is a serious problem of archaeological surveys. I do not accept that there is not a sufficient number of qualified persons available. The number of students of archaeology has more than trebled in the last eight to ten years. The Archaeological Survey has been without a director for three years and despite representations from various organisations, including the Irish Association of Professional Archaeologists, the Office of Public Works have refused point blank to appoint one. The level of staffing of the survey ensures its total inadequacy for the task that confronts it. The three counties that are completed up to 1200 A.D. are what we call the wee counties. I should like an explanation as to why more positions are not filled in the Archaeological Survey having regard to the numbers qualifying in this subject, especially from University College, Cork. How is it that there are not enough staff for this job? Is it that sanction given for the employment of extra personnel by the previous administration has been withdrawn? Is it caught up in the general rule that no new jobs are to be created in the Civil Service? If it is, it is a very silly policy because the survey cannot adequately be carried out by the staff now available to the Office of Public Works.

The stamping branch has moved from Dublin Castle. I made suggestions to the Parliamentary Secretary last year, and probably the year before that, regarding the possible development of this basement area of Dublin Castle, if it can be done without bringing down St. Patrick's Hall. I suggested that rooms should be named for men on both sides, Michael Collins, Éamon de Valera, Cathal Brugha and Arthur Griffith, a room where letters and other mementoes associated with these people could be placed on public exhibition, perhaps, in glass-top cases so as to prevent pilfering. Such a room would prove a tremendous attraction to people visiting the Castle, our own people in the first instance and, secondly, tourists. If the Parliamentary Secretary will not consider this suggestion, perhaps he will let me know what are his plans for the vacated space.

I understood that all the snags in relation to the canal at Belturbet had been resolved a couple of years ago and I should like to hear whether this work is to be proceeded with. I understand that that part of the canal which is on the Six-County side of the Border is navigable. The restoration of the Belturbet section of the canal would make a contribution to North-South relations.

Regarding the provision of reading matter in the waiting rooms at Leinster House I understand that when such material was provided in the past, visitors took it away with them. Perhaps publications such as Oibre could be provided there.

Mr. Browne

Would that not be taken away?

Mr. Kenny

The title would deter people from taking it with them.

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps some system could be devised such as one which is in use in Austria whereby newspapers are placed at the end of a long stick and cannot be removed as the stick is locked up. Very often a Deputy may be attending a committee meeting or may be in some part of the building where he cannot be found readily by an usher so that visitors might have to wait a considerable time, and it must be very boring to have to sit in the waiting room with nothing to read.

Mr. Kenny

Perhaps they might read the Dáil Debates.

Mr. Lemass

I often wonder how this Parliament worked before the new extension was provided, because even now we have totally inadequate space. Perhaps during the summer recess it would be possible to construct the proposed bridge from the new block to Government buildings where a floor could be made available for the use of Parliamentarians. Since at least one room would need to be closed during such operations the best time to do the work would be during the recess, and we would gladly suffer any short-term inconvenience in order that the necessary accommodation be made available.

I understand that the Kildare Street Club has been purchased for the National Library. Is it intended to move the entire library to the club premises and, if so, will the library have adequate space there? Will they occupy the whole building? If so, perhaps, instead of building the bridge to which I have referred, the library area could be incorporated with this building for use by staff or members of the House. Perhaps, too, when the new College of Art is built —in whatever century that may be— the existing buildings can be incorporated with Leinster House. I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will let me have answers to these questions.

The previous Government had proposals to expand their existing property. I understood that about £500,000 per year was to be made available for this purpose in the initial stage. Discussions were conducted with Dublin Corporation, who were prepared to offer some of their sites to the Office of Public Works for the purpose of providing office accommodation for Government staffs. I wonder whether this work is to go ahead and, if so, if there is a promise of the continuing provision of capital money for the purpose of building Government properties.

The introduction of all-purpose ships to Dún Laoghaire will destroy the amenities and the character of the harbour. This decision was taken by the previous administration but if the Parliamentary Secretary refers to the files he will find that it was taken against my advice. While there were arguments for this development, the amenity value of the harbour should be of paramount importance.

I wonder, too, whether it is intended to begin work on the Corrib-Mask road. There were plans for this project more than two-and-a-half years ago.

I agree with the previous speaker in suggesting that we should provide more playing pitches, running tracks and such facilities wherever possible. This is an area in which the Office of Public Works could be engaged usefully.

Apart from those projects on which construction work has begun it appears that the following operations have been left in abeyance since the change of Government: the provision of golf courses, the restoration of Kilmainham Hospital, the development of new fish-landing places and the extension of existing ones, Phoenix Park development, Scoil Éanna, new works on coast erosion and on arterial drainage, the provision of septic tanks at Muckross House, the taking-over of the Grand Canal, the development of the basement of Dublin Castle, the building of schools and Garda stations and the replacement of obsolete machinery such as the old trag lines with hydraulic machines. Has there been any consultation regarding the protection of the environment and national park development? Work seems to have slowed down on such projects as the architectural survey, the extension of the existing fish landing survey, the custom building at Station Road, Monaghan, the Kilkenny Castle Art Gallery and the restoration programme for the casino in Marino which was sanctioned during the period Deputy Haughey was Minister for Finance. There are also improvements required at nearly all of the Irish embassies purchased prior to 1972. If the Parliamentary Secretary would deal with these matters the House would be grateful to him.

Mr. McDonald

I should like to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary and the Commissioners of Public Works on the progress made in the last year. Listening to some of the contributions here might make one think nothing had been done. The fact is that a tremendous amount of work has been done and I admire the success of the present administration with regard to the new projects they have undertaken.

In particular I should like to compliment the Parlimentary Secretary and the Commissioners for the magnificent work they carried out at Dublin Castle for the summit conference of EEC heads of State and for the many ministerial and other meetings held there in the past five and a half months. The facilities provided were much appreciated. They were contrasted favourably with the facilities available at the Paris and to a lesser extent the Copenhagen meetings. Because of the organisation it was possible for the heads of State to achieve more in the relaxed atmosphere where everything seemed to run smoothly.

While I am sincere in paying that tribute, the Houses of the Oireachtas are not up to European standards and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see what can be done to improve the facilities here as a matter of urgency. There is a definite need for more office space. It is difficult for Deputies to concentrate on research work or on correspondence and I support fully the case made by Deputy Fitzpatrick. This House has been sitting for 12 hours on many days and the facilities are totally inadequate. The Parliamentary Secretary will have to ensure that the conditions are such that Members will be enabled to carry out their duties.

I regret having to comment on the poor facilities and standards in this House, especially in the cloakroom and toilets. It is embarrassing to bring our European parliamentary colleagues into this House. We cannot avoid doing this when they are over here because we enjoy the hospitality of the various EEC national Parliaments when we have meetings in their capitals. It is not that the facilities are so bad but the maintenance leaves a lot to be desired. The Parliamentary Secretary must ensure that there is adequate staff here. It cannot be beyond the capability of the Office of Public Works to provide clean towels every day. The conditions obtaining here are not good enough for the seventies. We are trying to get over the concept of the Irishman living with the pigs and it is not good enough to find this state of affairs in our Parliament. To say the least, it makes a very bad impression on people who enjoy a high standard of cleanliness and hygiene. I would ask the Office of Public Works to increase the number of staff and to pay more attention at all times to matters of detail.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to treat as a matter of urgency the request he received from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for the re-adaptation and furnishing of the former Irish Worsted Mills premises at Portlaoise. The Department are anxious to decentralise their contracts sections and it appears that only a few thousand pounds worth of work and furnishings needs to be done to allow this to take place. These premises have an area of more than 60,000 square feet and I was glad the Department took them over to extend their services. Communications are extremely important and I thought that by handing over the premises quickly to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs it would be possible to proceed with improving the communications system in the midlands. Progress is held up because it is not possible for the Office of Public Works to change a few windows, to put in a new floor covering and to furnish the premises. The work could be done in stages and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary might ask that the first stage be done now. It would mean that there would be at least ten or 15 good jobs——

Mr. Kenny

Will the Deputy tell the House what is the situation?

Mr. McDonald

The post office acquired this premises for a new headquarters. They want to furnish the office block so that ten or 15 personnel might be moved from Hawkins House, which is costing the Parliamentary Secretary's Department approximately £3 per square foot each year. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs want to move these people into the vacant premises in Portlaoise. It will be necessary to carry out some decoration, to put down floor covering and to furnish the place before they can commence work.

There has been a lot of comment about European Architectural Heritage Year. I admire the work the Department have carried out and the projects they have undertaken to commemorate the occasion. This is something very useful and something that must be admired. There are many things about which we should endeavour to do something. The Office of Public Works should be training architects in conservation and preservation. We should be aware of our responsibility as guardians for the future, as it were, and public authorities should be given some kind of leadership to impress on them the need for preservation and conservation. Not sufficient thought is paid to the dangers that threaten historical monuments and buildings. I do not know whether it is realised that chemical pollution and traffic vibration can play havoc with ancient historical buildings. We lag behind what has been done in other countries in preservation and conservation. In the 1950s and the early 1960s there was quite an industrial revival and great progress was made and we were inclined to overlook monstrosities which did not fit in with our architectural heritage or, indeed, with our temperament. More thought should be given to this aspect.

The Parliamentary Secretary should have some liaison with URCCE, a European organisation with responsibility for the conservation of historical sites, buildings and monuments. It is important that we should have a part in this in the European context. In European cities there are a great many ancient churches, many of them founded by Irish monks. There was a definite influence exercised by these monastic settlements. Not only can we learn from these people who have the resources to employ experts and undertake studies in depth but they have something to learn from us in tracing back the Celtic influences of the past in their architecture.

In most European countries there is a comprehensive classification of historic buildings, sites and monuments. This goes right through to mills, farmhouses, police barracks, country houses, town houses, railway stations and so on. The best has been taken out of each era. In my county there is a lovely little Church of Ireland in Coolbanagher which was designed by Gandon. A couple of years ago it was restored inside to its original state. It provides an interesting study for students of architecture because this is a little gem compared with the huge edifices elsewhere which made Gandon famous. These things should be preserved for future generations to appreciate and enjoy.

Amsterdam is a fantastic city. Some organisations, such as An Taisce, the Georgian Society and others put pressure on some time ago to prevent the disintegration of period pieces here. In Amsterdam they have gone into what might be called slum areas and offered the tenants the tenancies of the houses, having reconstructed them. The tenants are asked to pay an increased rent and I believe this has been agreed to in most cases. That kind of approach might have provided a solution to the problem we had some time ago in Parnell Square where very fine architecture was being systematically destroyed. The Amsterdam experiment is one the Parliamentary Secretary could gainfully examine. Where people are not able to pay for the expertise required to restore these historic houses from the point of view of architecture, there should be some agency to assist them. I have in mind what was the home of not just one but three patriots, who left their mark not only on Irish history but on the history of the world, with special reference to Australia. I am referring to James Fintan Lalor, his father and his brother, Peter, who contributed much to the development of Australia. It was quite embarrassing last year when an Australian Minister came over here to mark the birthplace of Peter to find that his birthplace, quite a small period house, was in ruins. It could have been saved and made habitable for an expenditure of something like £10,000 or £11,000 a few years ago.

There must be categories of things worthy of preservation. I know the State cannot possibly preserve and pay for everything. But there must be aids, even if it were only the State taking a lease on such privately owned buildings—perhaps a rate-free interest or some inducement to enhance them, whether they be buildings, sites or monuments. The Office of Public Works should assist such owners in their enhancement, ensuring that they be passed on to future generations.

I accept that there is a problem integrating modern architecture into historical, ancient buildings while, at the same time, maintaining the original framework. There is a lot in that respect we should endeavour to do because as each year passes, these buildings deteriorate. Two or three years ago we had the example of a Tudor-style house at the foothills of the Slieve Bloom Mountains—a building which our friend, Cromwell, was reputed to have stayed in, quite a small farmhouse in need of repair but it had the original beams and distinctive style of that time—where the only funds available to that farmer were the normal reconstruction grants. It is not possible to expect such a person to carry out such restoration work as an individual.

Of course, the ultimate authority in monument preservation is public opinion. It paves the way for legislation. No Bills for the defence of monuments can be passed and no funds voted for the carrying out of such work unless there be, in the backgrounds of the minds of people, a certain force of intelligent belief in the need for an agency of this kind. Here, as on the continent, public opinion is the final arbiter in all these questions. If we can get our people interested in their heritage, then it should be possible to have it placed high on our order of priorities. But the increase in this force of intelligent belief in these matters over the past decade has led to an increase in activities in conservation of our towns and countryside, while tending to obscure the fact that many of us have voted against the erosion of our architectural heritage for a much longer period.

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it is possible to extend the scope of his powers, with regard to historic and ancient monuments, to encompass a wider sphere of buildings and structures. For example, are our laws at present sufficient in relation to the preservation of buildings deserving of being regarded as works of art; which types of monuments are worthy of preservation and what dangers threaten such monuments and buildings? What is the relationship between modern towns and ancient monuments; in other words how are ancient buildings and monuments integrated into people's lives in towns and the countryside at large? The most important question is how the upkeep of buildings regarded as works of art is financed. I should like to know also what plans have the board of the Old Hospital in Kilmainham in mind for that building? That was not clear from the Parliamentary Secretary's speech. That is a building not equalled anywhere in Europe and something of which we should be proud. A section of it should be maintained as a museum, as an example to future generations and another more modern use incorporated at the same time. If the Parliamentary Secretary has any plans for that building. I should be glad to hear of them.

Finally, on a local matter of interest to me: there is, near Portlaoise, the Rock of Dunamaise which was, for many years, the seat or stronghold of the O'Moore Clan. This is a pre-Reformation structure and has a very proud history. It is suffering the ravages of vandalism and, to a lesser extent, of wear and tear. Perhaps the Board of Works would initiate negotiations with its owner to see if it could be taken over for preservation and perhaps a certain amount of reconstruction.

I should like to wish the Board of Works continuous success. In the next year I hope we shall see some further improvements carried out, with perhaps more emphasis being placed on some smaller details.

Mr. Browne

I shall be only four or five minutes and then, I hope, we can let in the Parliamentary Secretary. It has been a long, but useful debate. In reference to the debate of last Friday, one of our political correspondents said it was not a sparkling debate. But when one speaks about drainage, school buildings, harbours, ancient monuments, public buildings and a hundred and one different things covered in this Estimate, certainly one will not get a sparkling debate. But the debate on this Estimate is of immense interest to the people of the country as a whole. The unfortunate thing is that the Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Office of Public Works never has, and probably never will have, sufficient funds to carry out all of the works he should like. As he and his predecessors have said, they are merely agents of the various Departments of Government and can only spend the money provided for them and carry out the works they are asked to carry out by the various Departments.

Deputy McDonald referred to the shortcomings of this Parliament building. He, from his travels all over Europe, is conversant with and used to the magnificent parliament buildings to be found in a lot of European countries, parliament buildings much older yet at the same time more modern than are ours. We have an accommodation problem here. Many of the matters mentioned by Deputy McDonald and others are minor ones which can be rectified.

The question of accommodation for visitors to the House should be attended to. This is not a major problem. Reading material should also be made available for these visitors. The Official Report of the debates of both Houses of the Oireachtas would be heavy reading material for visitors. A difficulty arises when visitors are anxious to contact Deputies and Senators—it is possible this is not a matter for the Parliamentary Secretary but for the Ceann Comhairle. When a visitor arrives at the House a message is given to an usher who must travel up and down staircases in an effort to locate the Deputy or Senator sought. I pity those ushers having to go to such trouble to contact a Member. It should be possible to provide some method of communication for locating Deputies and Senators. The job of the usher is tough and exacting enough without having to roam around the corridors of the House seeking Members. The Parliamentary Secretary should see if it is possible to have a call system or a board in operation on each floor.

The lack of accommodation for the 68 Deputies and 15 Senators of the Fianna Fáil Party in the new building was, as a result of a protest by our party to the Ceann Comhairle, considered at a meeting with the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials by Members of the party prior to the summer recess in 1974. We are working in overcrowded conditions and finding it difficult to carry out our duties to our constituents. During those discussions we were informed that consideration would be given to the provision of a ramp between the new wing of Leinster House and Government Buildings so that Fianna Fáil could avail of extra accommodation in Government Buildings. I was under the impression that after the recess this ramp would be available and we would have the extra accommodation but nothing has been done.

While this House is not a souvenir shop it would be a good idea if a booklet, outlining the history of the House and of this Parliament, was available for visitors at a reasonable price. The booklet could include some pictorial illustrations of the House. School children like to bring home a souvenir after a visit to the House. The only booklet available is that produced following the visit of the late President J.F. Kennedy of America which contained his speech to a joint session of the Houses of the Oireachtas. That booklet costs 7½p and when one has to purchase it for upwards of 100 school children on a number of occasions during a session it runs into a lot of money.

I should like to know what the up-to-date position with regard to the drainage schemes in my constituency is. Year after year deputations go to meetings of the Wexford County Council to complain about flooding caused by the Sow River. We have to tell these farmers that the river is near the end of the list of rivers to be drained. It is possible that when we are all dead and gone a monument will be erected to the Parliamentary Secretary in that area for having carried out the drainage work on the Sow River.

Mr. R.P. Burke

A monument will not be erected to the Parliamentary Secretary at Skerries Harbour.

Mr. Browne

It is unfortunate that very little money is made available for drainage work. The Parliamentary Secretary should ask the Government to provide more money for these schemes. An immense amount of arable land is flooded periodically—in some cases five times a year—by the Sow River.

The Office of Public Works carried out extensive development at Kilmore Quay but a good deal of additional maintenance work needs to be carried out there. I should like to know if the Office of Public Works have any proposals or if they have carried out any surveys on Duncannon and Ballyhack harbours, two of the most important fishing ports in the south-east.

I was disappointed with the miserable sum of money provided under the heading of "coast erosion". It appears that there is no interest in that serious problem. Those who live in inland counties do not realise the extent of this problem. Wexford has a big problem of coastal erosion. When the Coast Erosion Bill was going through the Houses of the Oireachtas some 12 or 13 years ago it was said that it would never solve our coast erosion problem, that it should have been dealt with in a national way, as it should be dealt with now. It is an immense problem and we are only tinkering with it. It is only those of us in coastal counties who realise the immensity of the problem.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to urge the Minister and the Government—I have been doing this for some years now—to bring in some new and more up-to-date legislation and to provide sufficient funds for this purpose. I asked a parliamentary question some few weeks back about this matter and the Parliamentary Secretary told me he had about 68 or 70 applications on hand and that only 12 of them had been dealt with. I appreciate the difficulty of the problem and the type of experts and engineers who are required to deal with coast erosion. Possibly nobody realises that better than I do, having been fully involved with the late Dr. Jim Ryan and the late Deputy Allen in dealing with it in Rosslare Strand. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will admit that Rosslare Strand probably set a headline for dealing with coast erosion. However, unless more is provided and a greater interest is taken in the problem, the situation will deteriorate further.

I could go on for the full hour dealing with various other problems, ancient monuments, schools and so on. We have as many problems in Wexford as in any other constituency, but in view of the fact that all of these problems have been aired very well over the last two or three days on this Estimate, I shall leave it at that and give the Parliamentary Secretary an opportunity of getting in to reply.

Dáil Éireann debate - Friday, 13 Jun 1975