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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1975

Vol. 282 No. 6

Wealth Tax Bill, 1975: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

The Minister has taken the view that the approach embodied in this section, which is to take the husband and wife and minor children as one unit for the purpose of taxation, is the best way to do it. He said it will work, and we know it will work because, as the Minister says, it has been used in the past under the income tax code. However, I do not think the Minister can say the approach we are advocating will not work. He can point out that there are certain anomalies arising such as that if you treat husbands and wives as separate individuals in a case where the husband has all the property and the wife has none, they could be more heavily taxed than in the case of another husband and wife who have the same amount of wealth between them. That is true, but at least it is based on the proposition that each individual is treated the same way, and if an individual has an amount of wealth which goes above the threshold, he or she is taxed accordingly irrespective of his or her marital status.

I think this is a reasonable approach, and of course the consequence of what the Minister is doing is that you could have individuals, for instance, a single person versus a married person, with the same wealth but effectively being taxed differently. I think you should stand on the basis of treating each individual the same way. It is very difficult to stand on the basis of treating each individual the same way. It is very difficult to stand on the basis of treating a married couple as one unit with the consequences of treating more harshly for the purpose of wealth tax the married person and giving more favourable treatment to single persons or to people who are separated.

I believe the Minister can see a great deal of logic in what we are saying but that his basic difficulty is that he feels—and he has referred to this obliquely—that the proposition of treating each individual separately would, as he said, lead to evasion by way of transfer of assets, say, from a husband to a wife so as to keep them both below the threshold. I wonder if this is a realistic approach. What he is saying is that if a husband transfers property to his wife or if a wife transfers property to her husband, this is a purely tax avoidance measure. But if you approach it on the basis that each individual should have the same threshold, say, as provided here in the Bill for a single person, £70,000, then is it really avoidance of tax for a husband who has property and the wife has not, to transfer some of his property to his wife so that they would both be below the £70,000? I would suggest that if the Minister thinks a little bit more deeply about it he will appreciate that it is not tax avoidance and that there is nothing particularly reprehensible about that. The overall impression given by the machinery involved in this section and by the specific wording of it—the reference to the wife instead of the spouse—is at least a Victorian approach, if not, as Deputy Brugha suggested, a feudal approach.

I want to make a final appeal to the Minister—I say "final" because I am not going to drag this out—at least to think about this. I believe we are throwing away here a very valuable opportunity of giving proper recognition to the status of women and, in particular, the status of married women and of recognising the fact that they are entitled to be treated as individuals in their own right and not merely as appendages to their husbands. If this opportunity is grasped, the consequences either for the Exchequer or for the administration of the wealth tax will not be such as to create any great difficulties for the Revenue Commissioners, whereas a considerable amount could be gained in our general approach to the status of women and, in particular, of married women.

I would not expect the Minister to say across the floor of the House that he would adopt this approach, but he did indicate before that he had considered it and he could not see his way to accepting it. I would hope that he would eventually be able to see his way to accepting it. As the section stands it is an affront to all married women in the country in this day and age. The reasons advanced for doing it in the way that is proposed in the section do not justify the treatment of a wife as a mere appendage to the husband and as somebody who is not entitled to equal rights with other women, be they single or separated, or with men who are either single or, indeed, married. The whole thinking behind this is that the husband is the key to the whole problem; he is responsible in the first instance for the wife's tax liability. The thinking is certainly antiquated. We have an opportunity here now to strike a blow, not a very big blow, for the status of women. I think we ought to grasp that opportunity especially in view of the fact that in doing so no major problem is created for the Exchequer.

(Cavan): The object of section 4 in so far as this part of it goes is to aggregate the wealth of the husband and wife and to treat the wealth as the wealth of the husband for the purposes of wealth tax. It is significant that there is no amendment down to this section in the name of Deputy Colley. We are simply discussing the section.

May I intervene to say I thought of putting down an amendment, but I would have had to redraft the whole section and I would rather the parliamentary draftsman took on that job. I have enough to do.

(Cavan): Deputy Colley considered the section as it stands and was obviously impressed by the logic of leaving it as it is. When he made his argument here today I believe he did not realise the implications his proposal would have for married people. I stand over the section as it is because, in order to make the wealth tax work properly, a married couple and their minor children must be treated as one unit.

On purely social grounds, I can see many objections to Deputy Colley's proposal. Women should be emancipated but this is not the way to emancipate them. Under the proposal in the Bill a married couple have a threshold allowance of £100,000 with a family residence and its contents exempt. What Deputy Colley wants to do is to reduce, in effect, that threshold to £70,000.

Is it not £140,000 if it is £70,000 for each?

(Cavan): We have to be practical, and the practical politics of the situation is that in most marriages in this country the wealth is held by one side or the other. In the greatest percentage of cases the wealth is held by the husband who, according to Irish tradition, usually inherits the family farm or the family business and marries a girl who may have no wealth at all or a comparatively small amount of wealth. That is the general run. What Deputy Colley wants to do is to say that the husband in that case will not enjoy a married threshold for wealth tax purposes of £100,000 but that he will have only a threshold of £70,000 and, if he is to improve his threshold, he can only do that by divesting himself of perhaps half his property by transferring it over to his wife for taxation purposes. That is what Deputy Colley's argument would amount to. That might or might not work. The marriage might run smoothly or it might not. If it does not there will be regrets. If it does, and there are children of the marriage, and the husband dies, the wife has then half of the property. Suppose she marries again, what will the situation be?

There are cases in which it is the wife who possesses the wealth. In that case again, according to Deputy Colley's argument, the married threshold is in effect to be reduced from £100,000 to £70,000 and the married couple will only have the £70,000 threshold. If the wife is to qualify for an improved threshold and better reliefs she will have to transfer a substantial portion of the property to the husband for taxation purposes. I do not think that is desirable. If property is to be transferred it should be transferred freely, without any pressure or economic coercion. I do not believe that what Deputy Colley suggests is socially desirable. By and large Irish society runs on the basis that the farm or the business is passed on from father to son. If our taxation code were to pressurise the father so that the transferred earlier on half the property to his wife then the property might not be passed on to the son.

These are the practical difficulties. I do not think Deputy Colley's suggestion would do anything to emancipate women. As I said earlier, the opposite could be argued fairly strongly. These are my views. I have put them clearly and, if the House reflects on the position, it will, I believe, come to the conclusion that the section as it stands is properly drafted.

It is regrettable that the Government should have introduced this proposal, downgrading married women and, in effect, downgrading all women in this country.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 51; Níl, 40.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Kenneally, william.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 5.

I move amendment No. 3 (a):

In page 6, subsection (1) (a), line 23, after "date" to add "other than property to which an individual or a company is beneficially entitled in possession on that date".

The Minister is well aware of the three categories, not of people who are accountable or assessable but who are liable, individuals, discretionary trusts and private non-trading companies. I think that only in the case of discretionary trusts is it true to say that they are to be assessed not only on property in possession but all property, and furthermore in the case of the discretionary trust dealt with in this section and in the case of the private non-trading company which is dealt with in a later section, there are no thresholds provided. The Minister will also be aware that it was stated in the White Paper issued by the Government on 28th February, 1974 that persons affected by the capital taxation proposals should be given an opportunity to make alterations in their will and other arrangements in the light of the new taxation and because of the fact that the final form of the various Bills is not known and will not be known for some time, unless some such provision as is proposed in the amendment is made, no such opportunity will be given as promised by the Government in the White Paper.

The purpose of this amendment is to enable persons whose property is comprised in a discretionary trust to make other arrangements if they wish to do so by having that property transferred to an individual or to a company and to give them time to do so. I wonder if I am proposing to correct amendment.

(Cavan): I do not think you are.

Perhaps I am talking on another amendment.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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