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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1975

Vol. 282 No. 6

Wealth Tax Bill, 1975: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I was speaking about the phrase used in subsection (ii), "property situate in the State" and pointing out that we have established with the Minister that property situate in the State means a great deal more than might appear on its face since it has the same meaning as is attached to those words in the estate duty code. It includes items which might not be very obvious on the face of it. As one example, it includes a simple contract debt due by somebody resident in the State to somebody abroad— that is "property situate in the State". There are other cases that are not obvious on the face of it being property situate in the State. Its meaning has considerable significance in this section because it is only property situate in the State which is liable to wealth tax, in the case of persons or an individual not domiciled and ordinarily resident in the State on the valuation date.

The Minister has argued on the section generally and on subsection (ii) in particular that there is no inhibition on investment from abroad in this country in industry or otherwise. I think he has now narrowed that statement to saying that there is no such inhibition in the case of an individual as referred to in subsection (ii). Am I misrepresenting the Minister's position in saying that? Is he now saying: "That is so, in the case of an individual from abroad as distinct from any other taxable body or private non-trading company"?

((Cavan): No, I was thinking of a foreign trading company.

I thought the Minister was saying that in the case of an individual in the circumstances we have been discussing—where, say, an American individual has shares in an American company which in turn controls an Irish company controlling an Irish factory—there was no inhibition on investment from abroad in the case of that American individual.

(Cavan): Exactly.

Originally I think the Minister was saying that there was no inhibition at all on investment from abroad but he is now saying: "That is true in the case of an individual." He is not saying it is true in the case of a private non-trading company or a discretionary trust.

(Cavan): We shall be dealing with discretionary trusts later this afternoon, I hope, and private, non-trading companies later on and it would be a pity to confuse the issue now by introducing it here.

I understand the Minister's difficulty but he will understand mine in view of the fact that this matter arose in connection with an earlier section. The Minister was anxious to discuss it on that section and I suggested that we wait until section 3. Now he suggests that we wait until section 5 or 6—and reasonably: I am not objecting; it is probably more orderly. In regard to the statements made by the Minister in regard to there being no inhibition on or discouragement of investment from abroad contained in the wealth tax proposals, I suggest the Minister would only attempt to stand over that in the case of an individual. Even there, I see some problems arising.

(Cavan): And a trading company.

A trading company is not involved whether it is foreign or not, but in the case of the three categories of taxable persons, he would only say it, I think in the case of an individual. I am not developing that point but simply putting on record that I think there is a considerable limitation on what the Minister was originally saying in this regard and we will pursue that on subsequent appropriate sections.

Before departing from the phrase "ordinarily resident" with which the Minister has helped to some extent by what he said about it being interpreted following the income tax decision in each individual case, may I ask the Minister if I shall receive anything from the Department of Finance, as indicated by the Minister for Finance, or not? If not, now is the time to tell me.

(Cavan): I mentioned that to my advisers this morning again. I shall be in touch with the Deputy.

I do not wish to embarass the Minister but it keeps on arising and I am in the position that I have to continue asking.

(Dublin Central): I have very little to add to what was said yesterday except that we welcome the clarification the Minister has given us. We now have a clear outline of the guideline to foreign investors and we have a clear definition of what “ordinarily resident” means. People proposing to come in with capital will be able to satisfy their minds as to how long they can stay in the country. Up to now that was ambiguous but the Minister's amendment has clarified the situation.

There are still many people of Irish origin in America and in parts of Europe who would like to bring their wealth back here and settle down. They would still be discouraged from doing that. Many of these people emigrated and accumulated wealth but they will not be exempt from this tax if they come back and buy land or go into business. If they from companies abroad they will be exempt but there are many Irish people, particularly in America, who have done quite well but who will be discouraged because of this Bill.

As I have said, I welcome that foreign investment will be exempt because the bigger the capital inflow we get the better we will be able to expand our industrial arm and the sooner we will be able to alleviate our unemployment situation. As we know, there has been a big reduction in the employment content in agriculture all over the world. Here it is 25 per cent; in many European countries it is 15 per cent. Therefore, if we are to hope for full employment we must encourage by every means the import of foreign capital.

When we come to another section, to which Deputy Colley has an amendment, we hope to be able to persuade the Minister again to show consideration for Irish investment in Ireland. The whole kernel of the problem we are facing in this Bill is that we are taxing productive assets at a time when we should be encouraging Irish people at home to expand their businesses. When we come to the relevant section we hope to be able to persuade the Minister along the lines I have been speaking. With that reservation—it has been expressed by Deputy Colley—I welcome the Minister's attitude on this section.

As we have indicated, we welcome the clarification we got from the Minister on the reading of certain words and phrases. Nevertheless, we must take the section as it stands. It is still the position that there will be discrimination against Irish business people and we could not support that proposition. Therefore, we cannot support the section.

(Cavan): We had a very full debate on this section. We went through it line by line and as Deputies opposite will agree, every possible explanation was given. The House is entitled to that. I am glad Deputies conceded more or less that there is no disincentive to foreign trading companies coming here and that the bulk of foreign investment for industry has been coming through foreign companies.

In regard to the point raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick that Irish people who spend some time in America and want to come home here to set up a business or an industry find they are liable to tax, that is so but their position, in my opinion, has improved substantially as compared with a month ago because death duties are gone. There is no point in repeating again and again that there is any discrimination against Irish people in this Bill or that there is any innovation in it. I spoke about the two companies, one engaging in exports, which is completely tax free and the other dealing with the home market which is subject to 50 per cent corporation tax. We had a full discussion on this section and beyond repeating that I do not propose to say anything further.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 54; Níl, 43.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Would the Minister prefer to give an explanation of the section first?

(Cavan): If the Deputy wishes I shall do that. This section provides for the aggregation of the wealth of the husband, wife and minor children. If this were not done it could lead to the avoidance, or mitigation, of tax by the splitting by parents of wealth among the individual members of the family. This approach was foreshadowed in the White Paper. A minor child is a child under 21 who has not married. The married child is excluded because he forms his own separate unit and in the case of a married female minor, her property is included in the taxable wealth of her husband. A widowed minor is a separate taxable individual.

In relation to subsection (1), the previous section describes the taxable wealth of an individual as the property to which the individual is beneficially entitled in possession. This subsection states that the property to which an individual is beneficially entitled shall include the property to which the wife and minor children, if any, are beneficially entitled in possession. The proviso ensures that, in the case of a widow or widower, the property of the minor children is also added to that of the living parent.

In the case of an estranged husband and wife, the property of a minor child is included in the taxable wealth of the parent who has custody of that child. The proviso is drafted to cover this situation. If neither parent has custody, each minor child will form a separate taxable unit. Subsection (2) of section 1 indicates the circumstances where husband and wife are not regarded as living together.

Subsection (2) provides that any one of the aggregated group may apply for an apportionment of the tax assessed on the aggregate wealth of the family. The father, mother, widow or widower, as the case may be, who is the assessable person, nevertheless remains primarily liable for the tax charged on the aggregate taxable wealth but is entitled to reimbursement for the tax referable to the wealth which is aggregated with his. It should be noted that in the five countries regarding which we have information relating to the aggregation of the wealth of a husband and wife—Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway and Sweden— such wealth is aggregated.

I am not entirely satisfied as to why property should be aggregated. The Minister has said that otherwise it would not be possible, by dividing the property up amongst the family—I presume he means as between husband and wife—to evade liability. This brings up the whole question of treatment of the husband and wife as one unit—I am leaving out minor children for the moment—versus the treatment of a separated husband and wife as two units with consequentially much higher thresholds. We established that on an earlier section.

Where a husband and wife are permanently separated each would be entitled to the same threshold as a single individual. Am I correct in that?

That is considerably advantageous for them. I am questioning the principle involved here. Why are a husband and wife who are living normally together to be treated more disadvantageously than a husband and wife who are permanently separated? What is the Minister's justification for that approach?

(Cavan): It is proposed to treat a husband and wife living together in normal married circumstances as one unit. There are precedents for that. They have been so treated for a great many years for income tax purposes, the only tax code with which we are familiar here. If we were not to treat them as one unit we would be opening a way to avoidance of tax. We would be leaving it open for one spouse who was possessed of the wealth to transfer it or a share of it to the other spouse in order to gain a bigger allowance or to avoid payment of tax. The question which Deputy Colley really puts to me is: why should a husband and wife who are separated and living apart get preferential treatment? The short answer to that is that for all practical purposes they are single people if the marriage has broken up.

Why should single people get an advantage over married people?

(Cavan): Single people do get this marginal allowance; in fact a married couple get a bigger allowance than the single person, as the Deputy knows.

But the two single people get £140,000 as against £100,000.

(Cavan): Yes, they do, because it is generally accepted that two people living together in the one home can usually live cheaper than two single people living separately and apart.

Surely the Minister does not believe that?

(Cavan): I do indeed, and I have some experience of it.

What do they do in the EEC? What is the difference between the married and single allowances?

(Cavan): Here in Ireland, where we propose to aggregate the wealth, a single person gets an allowance of £70,000 and the husband and wife £100,000. In Denmark the wealth is aggregated and the single person gets an allowance of £31,500 and the married couple get only the same amount. In Sweden, again the wealth is aggregated, and the single person gets an allowance of £19,000, and the married couple get the same allowance of £19,000. In Germany the wealth is aggregated, and the single person gets £11,500, the married couple £23,000. In the Netherlands the wealth is aggregated: the single person, £6,800, the married couple £9,300. In Norway it is aggregated: the single person, £5,700; the married couple £7,700. In Finland it is aggregated: the single person £3,000; the married couple £3,600. In Luxembourg it is aggregated: the single person gets £1,100 and the married couple get the same allowance. It can be seen from these figures that not alone is wealth aggregated in all those countries but that our thresholds are very generous.

(Dublin Central): Those figures have no relevance to this Bill, because you must look at the whole background and tax structure of those countries.

(Cavan): The Deputy has interrupted me in the middle of a sentence. I was saying it would be seen that the thresholds here were much more generous, but that perhaps that was not important for the purpose of this argument. What is important is that in two of the countries there is no increase in the allowance given for the married couple at all, and in most other countries there is only a marginal increase.

Would the Minister know the approximate dates of the introduction of those various provisions?

(Cavan): I am not in a position to give the Deputy the dates on which those thresholds and arrangements were fixed, but I can tell him that the wealth tax was introduced in Denmark in 1904, in Sweden in 1910, in Germany in 1922, in the Netherlands in 1892, in Norway in 1911, and in Luxembourg in 1943.

That is what I thought.

(Cavan): I do not know when those thresholds were fixed. Again it is not relevant for the purpose of this argument, but it is true that those countries got on very well with the wealth tax. I am informed—but again I would have to check up on it—that most of the thresholds I have given have been laid down recently.

But I presume the principle the Minister is talking about was laid down at the beginning, that is, the relationship between the single and the married allowance. That is one of the points I want to put to the Minister. Apart from what has been happening in those other countries, the Minister is correct in saying that, substantially under our own income tax code, we have treated the husband and wife as one unit. However, if we look at the allowance for a married couple versus the allowance for two single people, what we find is this: this code was drawn up a long time ago when the view taken of the role of the wife was, I hope, quite different from that which prevails today. At that time it made sense to treat the husband and the wife as one unit. I think the Minister will also agree that over the years efforts have been made by successive Ministers for Finance to try and close the gap to ensure that in the case of income tax allowances the combination of two single personal allowances would equal that of a married couple. The difficulty is that to do anything like this costs a great deal of money, and so only steps towards this were possible, but the trend has been to try to achieve this.

Here we have a new tax. We can start off with a clean sheet without building up the kind of problems that built up in the income tax system. We can determine our approach on the basis of present-day thinking, not the thinking that prevailed when income tax was introduced, nor the thinking that prevailed when the various schemes of wealth tax in other countries were introduced, as the Minister has detailed. We ought to approach it on the basis of current thinking on this matter.

From the point of view of the Minister for Finance and the revenue involved in this, the total revenue expected from wealth tax is relatively so small that it will not make a great deal of difference one way or the other which way it is fixed. But one thing is certain: it will be far easier to fix this matter now than it will ever be in the future. If we pass this Bill with this kind of thinking in it any Minister for Finance in the future will have a great deal of difficulty if he wants to remedy the position, whereas now it is relatively easy to remedy it without any great financial difficulty for the Exchequer.

The fact is that more and more nowadays—I would hope to a very wide degree—it is accepted that a married woman is entitled to be treated as an individual in her own right, but the whole drafting of this section is based on a very antiquated approach. I shall be dealing with this point later but, to reinforce what I am saying, I point out now to the Minister the reference in paragraph (a) to "the wife"—not to the spouse, the wife. The whole concept is that the husband is the one who counts and the wife and minor children are appendages to be added in to create this unit. I agree that this was certainly the approach in previous legislation. It was the approach, as the Minister pointed out, in legislation introduced in other countries, but legislation in the main introduced a very long time ago, and I want to put it to the Minister now that Dáil Éireann, in 1975, should not be adopting that approach, remembering that the financial implications in particular for the Exchequer are not really great.

I say that on the basis that my recollection is that the best estimate of the yield from wealth tax that the Minister for Finance could give us was £1,500,000. In those circumstances what I am talking about here will not make any major difference to the Exchequer. Is it not time we approached this on the basis of treating a married woman as an individual in her own right? If we look at the consequences of not doing that we see the very strange anomalies that develop. One of them I have already developed, namely, that two single people get an allowance under the wealth tax of £140,000 whereas a married couple get an allowance of £100,000. That is a substantial difference operating against the married couple. But we have the even stranger position that a separated married couple get an allowance between them of £140,000 whereas the married couple living together normally get an allowance of only £100,000. These anomalies — I do not think they can be described as other than anomalies — arise because the approach to the whole question is taken from much older legislation which was drafted at a time when the general public attitude in regard to the role of the married woman was different—at least, I hope it was different—from what it is today.

I would have expected that this Government, which likes to present itself as being forward thinking — I may have another view as to whether it is or not — would have taken the opportunity presented by this Bill to signify their acceptance of the role of the married woman as an individual in her own right, entitled to at least the same treatment as a single woman or a single man or, indeed, as her husband. Effectively what we are doing here is saying that a woman who is single—she may be living with a man, but that is irrelevant—is entitled to an allowance of £70,000 under this Bill. If, however, she is married she is not to be treated as the equal of a single woman or a single man and she is not to be treated as the equal of her husband because this section goes on to talk about "the wife of the individual"— not the spouse, the wife. This is out of date. It is an antiquated approach. It would be quite easy for the Minister to adopt a modern approach and I am urging him, appealing to him, to do just that.

As this Bill stands, it will pay a couple who are thinking of getting married not to get married because, if they do not get married, they will find themselves £400 a year better off from the point of view of wealth tax. I asked the Minister for the European figures because it was interesting to see what other countries are doing. Now there is a basic difference between what is proposed here and what European countries operating a wealth tax are doing. In most cases, according to the assessments we have got, the rate of tax in the countries quoted by the Minister work out at considerably less, as much as one half to two-thirds less, when applied to the 1 per cent Irish rate.

The argument put forward by Deputy Colley is a valid argument. It seems to me, taking into consideration the arguments of some Government Deputies about the very small number to whom, it is presumed, this tax will apply—I am inclined to doubt the number—the principle of equality which should be applied to women is not being applied. It is ridiculous to think that if two young people happen to be well off enough each of them will have to pay approximately £200 per annum additional wealth tax if they get married. The comparisons the Minister gave with European countries are not valid in another area also because the high percentage level of taxation here is well above most European countries. The figures available to me indicate that in most countries, except Luxembourg, the annual top level of tax is not reached until the earned and unearned income is as much as twice and two-and-a-half times and, in the case of Germany, about four times the level you have here. Comparisons, therefore, in relation to low thresholds of wealth tax and the small difference between the single person and the married person are not valid when one applies the criteria of what is the percentage level of tax of all taxes on people with earned and unearned income.

The Irish level, even at the present time, is above most of these countries, that is, it reaches the top level sooner than most European countries. Therefore, the argument about the lower thresholds in relation to a wealth tax does not carry and, in most of these European countries, the percentage will work out at far less than the present 1 per cent to be applied here.

In Germany the deductability of the wealth tax against income appears to reduce the effective rate to as low as 0.4 per cent against the 1 per cent here. The position in Denmark is similar. Contrary to what the Minister said, there is a good argument for the suggestion put forward by Deputy Colley that as we are only starting this tax, we should make the married couple equal, in terms of their own individual place in society, to a single person.

(Dublin Central): I would like to pursue the points made by Deputy Colley and Deputy Brugha. Forty or fifty years ago there was a different concept of a wife to the one held today. The working wife is established in this country. There has been a great deal of agitation for relief from income tax for these working wives. These women will have independence whether we like it or not. Years ago it was thought that the woman's place was in the home but today she has her own place in society, her own circle of friends and quite often pursues her own pleasures within limits, she might play golf, drive her own car and so on. This shows that wives are more independent today.

On a number of occasions in the past a man and a woman, each with their own property, married. Often the wife kept her own property and worked it. Sometimes she owned the greater amount of property. Under this Bill if the wife is to claim independently, even if she owns her own property which will be aggregated with her husband's she, and her husband, will be entitled to £100,000. As a result a wife who has spent a considerable amount of time in her business will only get £50,000 while her single friend who is operating a business next door is entitled to £70,000. I believe there is a grave injustice in this situation. I can see that a married woman could be very aggrieved about this.

In this Bill we have an opportunity to get a new concept of the status of women. This is Women's Year. The Minister can contribute in no small way towards enhancing the status of women under this section. He could give them the same status as a single person. I do not believe it would cost the State very much. As Deputy Colley said if we want to amend this legislation in years to come it will be much more difficult. As time goes on, and there is nothing surer, women all over the world will be claiming more independence. We have to concede extra tax allowances to them in every budget. That would not have been heard of 50 years ago in an income tax code. In my opinion, if women knew about this Bill we would have heard their voices over the past five or six months.

I believe there is a weakness in this Bill and I would ask the Minister to look at the situation I have mentioned, because a woman who has run a business through the years may consider she has been victimised.

If the Opposition want to object to something in this Bill let them object to something that is sensible and sane. Income tax is something a working person pays. We are talking about much bigger money in this Bill. Everybody is looking for tax free benefits. Under this Bill a married couple is exempted for sums up to £100,000. It is suggested that if a husband dies the wife should have £100,000. When the husband was living, surely he spent some money, even if it was only on golf or drink. Should she have the same as a husband and wife?

We are not suggesting that.

How many people getting married under 30 or 40, or those who live together without getting married, would come within this bracket? Would there be three or four in the country?

We said that.

Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned the person who has run a business down the years. By the time she gets a house worth £70,000, she would be fairly long in the tooth.

(Dublin Central): This can be inherited.

What is the point of breaching a principle?

What principle? Every person pays income tax and the Deputy's Government away back should have made the single and married person the same.

We are talking about the basic principle that it is cheaper not to marry, taxwise.

The number of people in the age group under 50 who would have this kind of money, this amount of money saved, would be negligible, unless when they were 50 or 60 they accumulated a lot of money.

It is wasting time to be arguing about this at all.

(Cavan): As I stated previously, there has been an established practice here of treating the husband and wife as a unit. They are treated as a unit for many things, including taxation, and we have followed the practice that applies in the other countries I have mentioned. The tax code in these countries is not static. It has been reviewed from year to year. reviewed frequently, and we find that the wealth of the husband and wife is aggregated in all these countries. There is no doubt that a husband and wife living together have probably a greater taxable capacity than two private individuals living separately and apart. It is true, too, and there is no use in denying it, that two people living as husband and wife can and do live cheaper than the cost to individuals living separately and apart. It does strike me that if we were to accept Deputy Colley's suggestion that every married couple would not then be treated the same the allowance they would get would depend on whom the wealth was vested in.

Not if you have put them together.

(Cavan): No, not if we put them together, I agree, but if I take Deputy Colley's suggestion and separate them, each married couple will not be treated the same. The allowance will depend on where the money is vested.

Deputy Fitzpatrick made a point at some length in regard to a single lady who has a flourishing business and gets married. He thinks she should be treated as a single person. I could see that leading to some arrangement that might afterwards be regretted. I could see this married lady whom he talked about as having a good business getting married to a man who has no property but has a fairly good income, and for no better reason than to get a better allowance for wealth tax, she would—I will not say "be forced"—be economically coerced into transferring a slice of her property to her husband. That could very well be done but very soon after the marriage, when the honeymoon was virtually still on, there might be regrets. If that were done years after, it might be all right.

That is not a new situation.

(Cavan): I know, but I find in my practice as a solicitor that transactions in regard to property carried out with no higher motive than to arrange matters so as to secure the best benefit possible taxwise do not always work out well.

That is so.

(Cavan): I think that if we here create a single allowance for a married person, we will be creating that sort of situation where property will be divided for no higher motive than the motive of securing a tax allowance. I can see a husband who is in receipt of a good income—he might be a man of considerable expertise who knows a lot about the tax code—quite easily talking his wife into splitting the property in two and that might work out all right but it might have disastrous consequences. It could be done anyway, but if it is done for, shall we say, love or if it is done because the wife wants to convey some property to her husband, well and good, and if it works out badly after it is too bad. I do not think the legislature here should create a situation by which it virtually pressurises people into entering into these arrangements.

To come back to Deputy Colley's other point, he seems to object in some way or another to the single allowance being given to the spouses of a broken marriage.

(Cavan): You asked me why.

I am asking why those who are not separated get a worse allowance.

(Cavan): I would prefer to tell the Deputy that I am convinced that those who are separated should get a better allowance because I have sympathy for them because their marriage has broken down, because their marriage is on the rocks, and maybe there is at least one innocent party and there could be two innocent parties. I think it is only right that if the marriage has broken down and these people are coerced into paddling their own canoe, they should be given the benefit of the single allowance.

As Deputy Belton has said, we are not dealing with a very big percentage of people here. Furthermore, there is a real worthwhile increase in the allowance for the married couple. There is an allowance of £100,000 and there is the exemption for the family home and contents. It is not likely that two single people would have two separate houses, but it would follow, if we were to adopt the suggestion of Deputy Colley and others, that we would either have to differentiate between the married couples or allow each to have a separate house. We would either have to exempt the house in respect of each of them or say that where the married couple were concerned, they would only be allowed one house and that would be a differentiation in any event.

I think the proposal here is reasonable and in keeping with tradition here. It will get over a difficulty for the spouse who possesses the wealth.

The Minister can be complimented on his ingenuity but he must feel he is on thin ice when he is forced to argue that there is a danger in what we have suggested, that a wife who is well off in the sense of property as compared with her husband for the purposes of a wealth tax advantage might transfer some of her property to her husband and regret it afterwards. I do not think the Minister can expect us to take that argument too seriously.

Deputy Belton considers it a waste of time to talk about this matter and he said there were more urgent and serious matters in the Bill. Certainly there are urgent and serious matters in it but I would question Deputy Belton's dismissal of this as of no importance. I would do so even if only one person were involved but, of course, there are many more involved. Even if the number is small, it does not affect the issue.

Deputy Fitzpatrick made a very cogent case with regard to working wives, women who own their own business either because they inherited it or because they have built it up themselves, who subsequently marry. So far as I am concerned, a wife who is living at home and looking after her family is working just as hard and is worth just as much as a wife who goes out to work to earn a living and she is entitled to the same treatment under the law as the working wife.

The basic point comes back to the individual. The Minister spoke about what would arise if this suggestion were accepted. I cannot remember his exact words but he spoke as though the unit of husband and wife was the concept we must cling to. It is the one that is in the Bill. The concept of the husband and wife being a unit for tax purposes is out of date. Certainly they are a unit for very important and basic social purposes but they should not be penalised for that reason. The right approach is to say that each individual will be treated in the same way. I do not care what will be the consequences; if we treat each individual equally we accept the consequences.

However, I am sufficiently realistic to accept that if this proposition were applied overnight to income tax it would be so expensive as to be prohibitive. I realise it is not possible for the State to do that but the principle is right and where it can be applied it should be done. It can be applied in this case. It may be that the Minister just omitted to say it but I think it is of some significance that he did not comment on my statement that financially it would not make an enormous difference to the Exchequer to accept this suggestion as against doing what is in the section. Because I believe there is not any great difficulty for the Exchequer in accepting the suggestion, I am all the more anxious that the principle involved should be established and recognised where it can be done. It can be done here.

It is not really in keeping with our professions about our concern regarding the status of women. In particular it is not in keeping with the professions of concern by the Government and the Minister for Labour about the status of women to introduce a Bill, starting from scratch, without serious implications for the Exchequer, and to carry on the same, old approach that was incorporated in the early Income Tax Acts and in the Wealth Tax Acts of other countries which the Minister quoted. Some of them dated back to the last century and most of them to the early part of this century.

(Cavan): They have been reviewed every year.

We know from our own experience with regard to income tax that once one starts on the wrong foot there are financial difficulties in trying to rectify the matter afterwards. I am putting to the Minister that he can get it right now with no great difficulty and there will not be any problem afterwards. I am quite sure my colleague, Deputy Fitzpatrick, was right when he said that if we enact this measure as it is, as sure as night follows day there will be agitation on the lines we have set out. It will be more difficult to meet the case as time goes on, when it becomes entrenched and when income is coming in. Now it is possible to do it with very little difficulty. That is why I am urging the Minister, as strongly as I can, to rethink the whole proposition, to start on the basis that under the wealth tax all citizens will be treated equally, whether married or single, whether men or women. If he does that he will not go wrong.

He raised a problem about what might be done with regard to the allowance for the private residence. I admit it may be a problem. Logically one should say that two residences would be allowed for the husband and wife but I am sufficiently realistic to say I could contemplate a situation where only one would be allowed where the husband and wife are living together. Where they are not living together we could allow two.

(Cavan): The Deputy would be encouraging them to live apart.

That argument could be made but I would contemplate it because it is more in touch with the reality of the situation. If people are living together they need only one house. I would not quarrel unduly with the Minister whichever way he approached that problem. Where I quarrel with him is that he fails to accept that a married woman living with her husband is entitled as of right, as a citizen, to equal treatment with any other citizen in the State. If the Minister accepted that proposition, while he might have some consequential difficulties, he would be doing a good day's work for the status of women here. He would be doing it in a very easy way for himself and the Government in that it will not upset the finances of the country. I would urge him strongly to seriously consider this matter.

(Cavan): I am convinced that by proceeding as we are doing we are establishing and consolidating the independence of women. I am convinced that to do as Deputy Colley suggests means that, if a married woman is to get the full independence of a single woman, she has to transfer her property to her husband. That will be the position in many cases. As a single woman she keeps her property. If she gets married, in order to get the best possible wealth tax relief, she is forced to transfer half of her property to her husband.

Surely it is her own choice?

(Cavan): She will be under what I call economic coercion.

If she chooses to distribute her property that is her own business.

(Cavan): As it stands at the moment, all married couples are treated in the same way.

Couples, not citizens.

(Cavan): Under Deputy Colley's amendment, depending on their mentality, two couples with exactly similar wealth can each be treated differently depending on how they manipulate their wealth.

Is it not true to say that under the Minister's proposal individuals with the same wealth are treated differently?

(Cavan): I am talking about the unit. One of the absurdities which might arise from Deputy Colley's suggestion is to be seen clearly when we come to the residence which he highlighted himself. We either say: “You are married and you can only have one residence and, for the purposes of the residence, you have to be treated as one” or: “If you are living apart you can have two residences”. That could lead to their playing at having two houses or nominally having two houses. That could lead to misunderstandings too. The best way to deal with this is to leave it as it is. It is the sensible way. It will not lead to any of the shortcomings or difficulties I have mentioned.

The Minister and the only Deputy behind him who has spoken on this have adopted what can only be regarded as a very antiquated and Victorian approach to the role of the married woman in our society in 1975.

It is feudal.

I did not intend to go back that far. There are some softenings from feudal times in the Minister's approach. I am not so sure about Deputy Belton. I could not place the Minister later than the Victorian era in his approach. It is regrettable but not surprising to some people.

(Dublin Central): I presume they must be legally separated before they qualify for this exemption.

(Cavan): No. There is a definition at the bottom of page 3.

The definition section provides that, in order to be treated as living apart and therefore to qualify between them for an increased allowance, they must either be separated under an order of a court of competent jurisdiction or by deed of separation, or they must be in fact separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent. As far as I can see, that definition is taken from section 196 (1) of the 1967 Income Tax Act. Subsection (2) of that Act has an effect which is not incorporated in this, and I am wondering if there is a reason for it. Non-residence of one spouse for a year or years does not of itself involve separation under this Bill as it would under subsection (2) of section 196 of the Income Tax Act, 1967. I wonder if there is some reason for that.

(Cavan): Non-residence in what circumstances?

Non-residence of one spouse for a year or a number of years.

(Cavan): I understand that the intention here is to have a straight commonsense approach and to take every case on its merits. If it is obvious that the marriage has broken up and that the break-up is likely to be permanent, that could be apparent after a week if the break-up was of such a nature as to indicate that it was likely to be permanent. On the other hand, the break-up might not appear to be permanent for some time. A man could say he was going over to England to work and that he would be home for Christmas. He might not come home for Christmas and he might not come home the following Christmas. If he packed his bags and went off with another lady that would appear to be permanent. It is a question of fact on whether the marriage has broken up.

Perhaps I did not make clear what was the query I was putting the Minister. I am not questioning the part he is talking about. It seems to me that the provision to which the Minister referred, which determines whether the wife is living with the husband, is taken from subsection (1) of section 196 of the Income Tax Act, 1967, which provides that they are separated under an order of a court of competent jurisdiction or by deed of separation, or they are in fact separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent. It is exactly the same wording. The query I was putting to the Minister was this. Subsection (2) of that section of the 1967 Act goes on to provide:

Where a married woman is living with her husband and either—

(a) one of them is, and one of them is not, resident in the State for a year of assessment, or

(b) both of them are resident in the State for a year of assessment but one of them is, and one of them is not absent from the State throughout that year,

the same consequences shall follow for income tax (including sur-tax) purposes as would have followed if, throughout that year of assessment, they had been in fact separated in such circumstances that the separation was likely to be permanent.

Since the provisions of subsection (1) were included, is there a reason for omitting the provisions of subsection (2)?

(Cavan): I understand that for income tax purposes it is relevant to have regard to residence for the entire year. Here we are dealing with a situation as on 5th April in any year. It is in ease of the taxpayer to draft the definition as we have drafted it. A marriage could have broken up at Christmas or in February or in March and, on 5th April, they are regarded as single people. It is not a hardship on the taxpayer to draft it as we have drafted it because it enables the Revenue Commissioners to look at the position as on 5th April.

The Minister will note in subsection (2) of the 1967 Act the concept of being resident in the State but being outside it for the whole year and still being resident in the State. This is what we were talking about last night.

(Cavan): The income tax code and this code are different to that extent.

On Second Stage the Minister for Finance was at some pains to tell us this was analogous to income tax where it suited him to argue in that way. I am wondering whether there is a provision in section 196 of the 1967 Act which would be in ease of the taxpayer if incorporated here as subsection (1) was incorporated.

(Cavan): For income tax purposes it is necessary to look at the position for the whole year because the person is taxed on his income for the year but for the purposes of this operation it is only necessary to have regard to the situation and circumstances on 5th April.

I do not know if that is quite correct. This brings me back to the point the Minister was talking about earlier, where the separation is likely to be permanent. Clearly, no hard and fast rule can be laid down in regard to that but if you have a situation where one party to the marriage is living outside the State for a whole year commencing—to take the extreme case—on 6th April, under this definition it seems they might not be regarded as separated and therefore treated as separate, whereas under this provision for income tax purposes they would be treated as separated.

(Cavan): The Deputy will remember the discussion we had yesterday about domicile—where a person must be domiciled and ordinarily resident—and if he is domiciled and ordinarily resident on 5th April he is deemed to be so domiciled and ordinarily resident for the next two years. I undertook to have a look at that.

Would the Minister have that examined to see if the incorporation of something in the sense of subsection (2) would make it clear?

(Cavan): I shall certainly have it looked at in the light of what the Deputy says, in the light of the omission of that subsection and see the reason for it.

Thank you. In regard to subsection (1) paragraph (a) and this question of the property of the wife and the individual being aggregated—she is living with him on the valuation date—can that give rise to some difficulties seeing that we are talking of one particular day or is it that she is constructively living with him unless the circumstances are such as to indicate that there is a separation that is likely to be permanent?

(Cavan): One must take it for what it says: if she is not separated from him, she is living with him.

It seems to me a possible difficulty arises here because, again, we are dealing with a tax based on the situation on one particular day in the year. The situation that obtains then governs the tax for that year. What would be the position— taking an extreme case—if there were a court order or deed of separation signed or made on 6th April? For the income tax year would they be treated as living together because on the valuation date they were living together?

Is the Deputy saying they are separated but that the deed had not been signed?

No. That might be so, but I was thinking only in terms of the definition.

(Cavan): If such an order were made on 6th April it would be almost certain that things were not running too smoothly the day before and that factually they would have separated.

This might be where subsection (2) would come in and make it clear.

Would paragraph (c) not come in here also in the definition clause, if they are separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent?

I took the extreme position in saying 6th April but that can be stretched a little and it is a rather difficult situation which might be cured by something like subsection (2) of section 196.

Paragraph (c) seems to cover it fairly fully.

(Cavan): Unless the trouble was very sudden and followed very quickly by a court order.

Which is not very likely. I have referred to the fact that paragraph (a) of subsection (1) speaks of "the wife of the individual", not the spouse and I have expressed my views on the inappropriateness of that approach. But taking it as drafted where it refers to the wife of the individual, what is the position if the wife is the one who has the property and the husband has little or none? Her wealth is aggregated with his little or none. But why should this be so? In the reverse position you may say there is also an aggregation—that is where the husband has the property and the wife has little or none. Why is it that the property of the wife is aggregated with that of the husband as distinct from that of the husband being aggregated with that of the wife?

(Cavan): We regard the husband as the person primarily accountable. That has been the practice for years in the income tax code.

That is a very old approach. Would the Minister not consider this much of a concession, recasting this to provide that the reference would be to the spouse, that the property of the spouse would be aggregated with that of the individual? Putting in the wife here is throwing her into the category of being an appendage to the individual.

(Cavan): I do not think so. We are making the husband the person primarily accountable and we are aggregating the wife's wealth with his and then we can collect from either.

Suppose you say the individual and the spouse of the individual and aggregate the wealth, do you not get the same effect?

(Cavan): The Deputy wants to insert “spouse” instead of wife?

I am suggesting that as a minor gesture to the unfortunate married woman you might at least given her equality of treatment by using the word spouse.

(Cavan): It has no practical effect.

That is why I think the Minister might be able to accept it.

(Dublin Central): If the entire wealth is in the wife's name, will the husband be an accountable person?

This is some more of this antiquated phrasing. The wife has all the property and the husband is the accountable person.

(Cavan): It will work.

If married women can appreciate what the Minister is doing they will have something to say to him.

(Dublin Central): There is a reference to the valuation date.

It is 5th April every year.

I refer the Minister to page 6, line 4, in which there is reference to "if, but only if, that parent has the custody of the child on that date". If the parent has not got custody, is the parent then better off in the sense that the child's wealth, if the child has wealth, is not aggregated with the wealth of the parent or parents?

(Cavan): This is intended to apply in genuine cases. One could see a situation where the marriage has broken up and the father goes one way, the mother goes the other and the minor child is taken care of by one of the grannies or somebody like that. The wealth of that child will not be aggregated with either parent's wealth.

Is that not to the advantage of the parents rather than their disadvantage?

(Cavan): That can be said but it is a fact of life in such a situation. It can also be said they would not get the £2,500 allowance in respect of that child.

If the wealth of the child was substantial the fact that it was not aggregated with their's would be an advantage to the parents.

(Cavan): It would not be a real advantage because they can recover from the child's fund if they have paid tax on behalf of the child.

Is that quite clear in the case of a minor child?

(Cavan): I refer the Deputy to section 14 (3).

Perhaps I should have asked the Minister the question in regard to subsection (2) which states:

Where the property of another person is included—

Is "another person" intended to include a minor child?

(Cavan): Yes. I could see a situation arising where the minor child might get a vast amount of money or property from somewhere and the property might be invested by the High Court. If the parent were to recover tax successfully from the High Court he would have to prove to the President of the High Court the amount of tax he had paid on behalf of the child. This subsection creates the machinery for doing that.

The reason I am questioning this is because the Minister will be well aware that it is a general proposition that money paid by a parent on behalf of the child would not be recoverable by the parent from funds lodged in court to the child's benefit because there is very strict control. I gather it is intended that a parent could apply to the court and recover the amount paid in tax on behalf of the child.

(Cavan): Exactly.

Section 14 (3) states:

Any accountable person referred to in subsection (2) who is authorised or required to pay tax in respect of any property comprised in the taxable wealth of an assessable person shall be entitled to reimbursement——

(Cavan): It goes on:

—for any amount paid by him in respect of tax from the person primarily accountable for such amount and the person primarily accountable for the tax shall himself be entitled to reimbursement as follows—

That would be the wife.

Or the minor child, under section 4 (1). Could it mean anybody else?

(Cavan): I do not think so.

Does an assessable person include a minor child?

(Cavan): It might be better to wait until we are considering section 14 in toto. That is the enforcing section.

If the Minister will bear with me, when we come to that section I trust he will remind me.

What is meant is that the Commissioners will levy the tax on the assessable person. Does that include the minor child?

(Cavan): No. They will assess the tax on the assessable person, who is the husband.

In the case of a parent who has not got custody of the minor child, say the husband, what is his threshold?

(Cavan): It is £70,000. It is in section 13 (c).

That would be on the basis that he is separated and is not entitled to the allowance in respect of the minor child?

Could I refer the Minister to the proviso at the end of the section? What is the intended significance of that? Could he elaborate in a different form what is intended?

(Cavan): I can. Subsection (2) is the apportionment section, which we have dealt with, but to remove any doubt the proviso provides that the husband shall be primarily liable for the tax and the Revenue Commissioners can collect it off him in the first instance. Otherwise, it might be said that because it was apportioned under subsection (2) the Revenue Commissioners would have to follow two people for the apportioned amounts. The proviso is to remove any doubts in regard to that. If the apportionment stood on its own it would look as if you would be recovering from two people instead of one.

Does that mean that if a married man has a wife who has substantial property it will be he who will have to ensure that the tax is paid?

(Cavan): The Revenue Commissioners will follow the husband in the first instance. Of course, if he is a man of straw or a man with little property they will follow the wife.

What is the position if the husband is virtually a man of straw? Is he not legally liable for the tax?

He can presumably be subject to penalties if he does not pay.

(Cavan): The Revenue Commissioners are concerned with collecting money. That is their main business and they will follow the person who is the best mark.

Yes. I must confess that this has implications arising out of the consequence of picking out one person as being liable for another person's tax. One can visualise a situation in which the husband, who is the person primarily accountable according to this proviso, is within the jurisdiction, but the person who is liable in the real sense, the person the Revenue Commissioners want to get after, might be outside the jurisdiction and be in the possession of property, which is relatively easily moveable and that person could have it outside the jurisdiction too. What happens to the unfortunate husband, who is primarily accountable, in a case like that?

(Cavan): This only applies to a husband and wife living together as man and wife.

I appreciate that is living together according to the Revenue Commissioners but according to the people concerned the situation might be somewhat different.

(Cavan): The husband is liable in the first instance. If he is a man of straw or a man with comparatively little wealth it is unlikely that the Revenue Commissioners would follow him. They behave as a practical person would behave.

I can see that they might behave very reasonably when going after the person with the money if they are both available but it is a different matter when there is only one person to get at.

(Cavan): They will not squeeze the genuine person who is liable as a husband in respect of the wealth belonging to his wife, which is abroad.

I hope the Minister is right, but as he knows when trying to recover money which you believe the debtor is determinated not to pay there is sometimes a temptation to apply pressure, indirectly perhaps, and the unfortunate person to whom the pressure is applied is caught in the middle. This Bill is so designed to enable this kind of thing to happen very easily because it is making somebody liable for tax who is in fact not liable, in the sense that he does not have the property or the money to pay the tax.

(Cavan): Did the Deputy consider that the argument he is now making seems to favour the wife?

If the Minister would treat each person as an individual then the wife could look after herself and the husband could look after himself.

(Cavan): The husband has to look after her here.

I agree he is being stuck here. It illustrates the wrong approach in naming the husband as in effect representing the wife and the children to the Revenue Commissioners.

It is not completely a man's world.

I agree it is not. Women should be treated equally. That means badly treated as well as well treated.

(Cavan): Deputy Colley is a sensible man and he knows perfectly well if this tax is to work within the family you must have one person liable. So far as a married couple and minor children are concerned you must have one person you can make primarily liable. Otherwise people would be playing ducks and drakes and have great fun and games but you would not get any money.

I agree with the Minister that that is true provided that you adopt the approach he has adopted of treating the family as a unit for the purposes of wealth tax. If the Minister were prepared to treat a husband and wife as individuals and give the allowance in respect of the minor children to the person who had custody or if there was no question of that and they both had custody, letting them opt as to who would get the allowance in respect of the minor children none of these problems would arise at all. There would be an individual liable in respect of his or her own tax and he or she would be responsible to the Revenue Commissioners. The other individual would have no responsibility which would seem to be the required position. I wonder if I could come back to a point on which the Minister has not commented? Perhaps I should not ask him to comment as it might not be to my advantage. Would the Minister comment on the statement I made earlier, that if the Minister were to treat the husband and wife as separate individuals, as we have urged, this would not be of major financial significance to the Exchequer?

(Cavan): I am not in a position to tell the Deputy how much it would cost or what it is likely to cost. It would cost some proportion of the entire revenue from the tax and it would also lend itself to avoidance devices. I hope the Deputy does not ask me to spell out each one of those. It is more likely that there would be collusion between husband and wife to avoid liability to the tax if they can do it. It is obvious that if they are treated as separate individuals for tax purposes it is going to be much easier to find ways to legally avoid the tax.

Does the Minister mean separate transfers between themselves?

(Cavan): Yes, and perhaps between themselves and the children.

(Dublin Central): The Revenue Commissioners would know the accountable person. If a wife owns property and her husband is an average wage earner surely the Revenue Commissioners would be in a position to know that the husband is not in possession of any of the relevant facts as regards valuation and papers they would require. In such a case the Revenue Commissioners should be in a position to go directly to the wife. It sounds ridiculous to assess the husband in such a case. Why he is to be approached as the accountable person at the start for his wife's business and property is something I cannot understand. It is a waste of time and will slow down the Revenue Commissioners. When the husband gets that envelope he will return it to the Revenue Commissioners with a note to the effect that he knows nothing about it.

(Cavan): There is nothing to prevent the Revenue Commissioners, if the case warrants it, from going to the spouse and dealing entirely with the spouse.

(Dublin Central): It does not state that in this section.

(Cavan): Section 14 (4) states:

The tax assessed or any part thereof shall be recoverable from any one or more of the persons accountable for the payment of the tax.

Section 15 (2) states:

(2) A person who is accountable for the payment of tax by virtue of section 14 (2) shall, if he is required in writing by the Commissioners to do so, deliver to the Commissioners, within such time, not being less than 30 days, as may be specified in the requirement, on a form provided by them a return of all the property in respect of which he is accountable comprised in the taxable wealth of the assessable person concerned stating the market value thereof on that date and shall, if he is so required by the Commissioners, so deliver to them a statement verifying such particulars, together with such evidence, statements and documents as they may require relating to that property.

That covers the situation envisaged by Deputy Fitzpatrick. I can visualise a case where that would be the practical thing to do and where following the husband might not be a profitable and worthwhile exercise.

(Dublin Central): My interpretation of the section was that the Revenue Commissioners would automatically go after the husband first. If the Revenue Commissioners have the necessary information can they disregard the husband and go direct to the spouse?

(Cavan): Yes, under section 14 (4) and section 15 (2).

The Minister is saying that under section 14 (4) the tax assessed is recoverable from the persons accountable for the payment of the tax but, nevertheless, a person has to remain primarily accountable although it is somebody else's tax. The wording suggests that since he is primarily accountable he is the one the Revenue Commissioners go after first. I accept, using the provision the Minister has referred to, it may be possible for the Revenue Commissioners to ignore him and go after the other party who is liable.

(Cavan): The real difference between the person who is primarily liable and the person who is secondarily liable is that the person who is primarily liable is obliged to make a return whether he is asked or not and the person who is secondarily liable need not make a return unless he is asked under section 15 (2).

(Dublin Central): Does that refer to a case where the wife is in entire possession?

(Cavan): We could have a situation where a wealthy woman would have a no good husband and there would be no use in sending him forms because he would probably throw them in the waste-paper basket. This machinery enables the Revenue Commissioners to go after the wife in such a case.

That is true, but has the Minister not stated that in the case he visualises the husband is obliged to make the returns?

(Cavan): Yes, but if he does not make a return the Revenue Commissioners can then go after his wife.

Section 4 seems to pin the responsibility on the husband rather than transferring it.

(Cavan): It places the primary liability on the husband to make the return and to pay the tax but under section 15 (2) and section 14 (4) the Revenue Commissioners have the right to call upon the wife to make the return. Under section 14 (4) they can collect from her directly and ignore the husband altogether.

(Dublin Central): It is a pity it is so cumbersome.

Would it not be better to make section 4 clearer?

(Cavan): No. The legislation as drafted will cover the vast majority of cases, and sections 14 and 15 between them provide machinery for getting after the odd queer case.

I am not so much concerned with the kind of case the Minister has mentioned, the wealthy wife and the no-good husband who, as he said, would probably throw the forms into the waste-paper basket. He has to take the consequences of his inaction. I am more concerned with the case where under this section the husband is liable, and he is in law living with his wife but they are not on very good terms. He may be a reasonably conscientious man and wants to discharge his obligations under the section, but she is in no way going to let him know the details of her business and he would be liable to penalty if he did not make the return. Such cases arises where the husband will be caught between the two millstones here, of the Revenue Commissioners on the one hand, and his successful and probably somewhat over-powering wife who is determined not to let him know the details of her business, on the other hand. What happens in that case?

(Cavan): I will tell the Deputy what happens.

(Dublin Central): He goes out and gets drunk and forgets about the problem.

(Cavan): That gentleman will call and see the officer of the Revenue Commissioners and say: “My wife is impossible. She is very wealthy. She keeps every farthing of it but she makes me buy cigarettes for her and all the rest of it. I would ask you to go after her.” And the Revenue Commissioners would do just that.

And they will not pursue him?

(Cavan): If he is a genuine case.

That is, I suppose, some consolation, because the section as it stands makes him liable to submit the returns and, if he fails to do so, liable to quite substantial penalties, but, as the Minister knows, we shall be coming to that question later on.

(Cavan): I would remind Deputy Colley that we have an amendment to it.

I do not think it goes far enough, but I am aware of it.

(Cavan): Deputy Flor Crowley was not.

I have no doubt the Minister will be accepting my amendments too and then we shall get it right.

(Dublin Central): That is important.

(Cavan): The important thing is to keep moving.

It may be important to keep moving but it is also important ant to get it right as we move along, and I do not think he has it right in the section. The Minister has not had much opportunity of considering the point as we were discussing the section, but in the back of his mind has he been able to give any further thought to the proposition we are putting to him about treating the husband and wife as separate individuals? Does he see any hope of adopting that approach?

(Cavan): I do not. I am satisfied that for tax purposes it is reasonable and that the allowances given for the married couple are generous, and when the house is thrown in the provision is quite generous. I honestly believe that, far from taking away from the independence of the female spouse, it is leaving her independence with her. If they were assessed as individuals, then without regard to the ultimate consequences, the wife, if she were wealthy-and it seems to be the wife that Deputy Colley is concerned about-would be forced or persuaded or encouraged to transfer her property to her husband for no better reason than to qualify for the maximum tax allowance. I put that proposition to the House for serious consideration. I do not want to prolong the discussion by saying that the Opposition are making two different cases: they are concerned about the wife not having her full allowance, and then they are concerned about the husband having to pay for the wife.

(Dublin Central): If the Minister will not concede the point about the wife, we want to ensure that the Bill works properly.

If the Minister accepted our original proposition this would not be a problem at all.

(Cavan): I am satisfied that for tax purposes, and particularly for this tax purpose, it is necessary to treat the husband, the wife and the minor children as one unit. As I said previously, to do as Deputy Colley says would mean having a married couple A and a married couple B with exactly the same wealth but paying different taxes.

As you have under the Minister's provision in the case of individuals.

The examples given relate to most European countries which have this form of tax, many of them for 40 or 50 years, but we are talking about this tax for the first time in this country in 1975 after the European Economic Community have made a considerable case about equal pay for women. It would be a different situation if many of these European countries were now introducing a wealth tax, because then, as EEC members, they would have to have regard to the principle of equality which they are supporting and presumed to support. The difference between the system of tax which the Government are introducing and that in other European countries is a difference in time; the idea of equality towards women has now become more a thing to be upheld than when the other countries introduced wealth tax. Reading through the Bill and particularly reading section 4, I gather the Minister for Finance is recognising the family situation but is not doing what perhaps should be done in a country like this, giving a better status to the family as distinct from individuals. If an individual is entitled to a threshold of £70,000 one would imagine that not only should a family be entitled to that same allowance but that, because it was a family that would include children, the allowance should perhaps be a bit higher.

My main argument is that we are introducing this Bill in 1975 when the European Economic Community have accepted, at least in theory if not entirely in practice, the idea that there should be equal pay, and that therefore women, because they get married, should not be in an unequal situation.

(Dublin Central): Do I take it the separated wife is entitled to her own private residence?

And a threshold of £70,000.

(Cavan): Yes and, of course, the proposition the Opposition are putting forward could lead to a situation where a married man would have a threshold of only £70,000.

For himself.

(Cavan): Yes, and we have given that man, even if his wife has not got a penny at all, a threshold of £100,000. That should be clearly understood.

That is a family threshold.

(Cavan): Yes, but that would be the effect of the proposition put forward by the Opposition: a man who marries and is subject to wealth tax, who marries a wife who has no assets, and has, as Deputy Colley said, to support a wife and family would have to pay wealth tax on a threshold of £70,000 as against our threshold of £100,000.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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