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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Jun 1975

Vol. 282 No. 7

Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Bill, 1975: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to replace the home assistance service, provided under the terms of the Public Assistance Act of 1939, by a new scheme of supplementary welfare allowances to be operated under the general direction of the Minister for Social Welfare and administered by the regional health boards.

This is a somewhat technical Bill, of 29 sections, and I hope that the explanatory memorandum which was circulated with the Bill has been of assistance to Deputies in their consideration of the detailed proposals.

The Bill proposes the repeal, for all practical purposes, of the Public Assistance Act, 1939 and thus the removal from our social welfare legislation of the remaining vestiges of the poor law. I regard this as an important step forward in the development of the social services and one that is long overdue.

The poor law was the legal embodiment of the attitudes of the last century, harsh and unfeeling attitudes which should have no place in the society of today.

As Séamus Ó Cinnéide wrote in his study, A Law for the Poor, which is the standard work on the history of home assistance:

under the Poor Law the assistance given was minimal, people were discouraged in every way from seeking assistance and the assistance was given in a miserly way. Practice may have varied over time and from place to place but the philosophy of the Poor Law was repressive and inhumane. We must have a new philosophy now.

I see this Bill as a realistic attempt at a radical overhaul of the home assistance service which I proposed as a major aim of my Department, when introducing the 1974 Estimate in this House. The supplementary welfare allowances scheme is designed to fulfill a necessary residual and support role within the overall and income maintenance structure. It is essential within any national system of social welfare to have a support service of last resort which can enable immediate and relatively flexible assistance to be provided for those in need who do not qualify for payments under other State schemes. Such a service should also help those whose needs are inadequately met under the major schemes and those confronted with emergency situations.

Thus, the supplementary welfare allowances scheme will become an effective part of the overall national social welfare service and will no longer be seen as an unconnected, poor relation of that service. It will, however, retain and develop its local, community-based element which is a most important potential strength. The problems of those who will need to avail of these allowances will, in most cases, be of a nature calling for more than a mere cash response. Social services, social work support and genuine community care are also needed which can help the recipients to cope with the situations in which they find themselves and to find a place of dignity and full integration in our society.

This Bill is a further step forward in the planned realisation of the Government's objective of creating a genuinely comprehensive social security system catering for the needs of all citizens. Its effect will be to provide assistance, as of right, to a further substantial number of persons and families and to bring us nearer to the desired aim of giving income maintenance coverage to all. It is another positive element in the Government's policy of alleviating and eliminating poverty and ending social injustice. This policy is being implemented progressively and systematically.

The proposals contained in this Bill should be put in their proper perspective. While very considerable progress has been made in the development of the social welfare system by substantial improvements and extensions, designed to meet immediate and obvious social needs, it cannot be denied that the existing home assistance scheme has fulfilled, and continues to fulfill, a vitally important support role in areas where poverty is encountered in its most acute form.

Home assistance, which is now provided under the Public Assistance Act, 1939, had its origins in the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1847, and was the only statutory form of assistance, other than institutional assistance, provided for persons in need until the beginning of this century. Since then the overall need for the service has been eroded as State social insurance and assistance services, catering in different ways for loss of income arising from specific contingencies such as old age, sickness, unemployment, widowhood, were gradually introduced and expanded. This is reflected in the numbers of beneficiaries, including dependants, which have fallen from 75,000, 30 years ago to around 30,000 at present. The nature of the service has also changed in that the majority of recipients nowadays are persons who receive assistance to supplement payments under some other service or while awaiting other payments. As a result of this evolution home assistance is financially a relatively small service, the cost in the last full year—1973-74—being approximately £2 million, as against expenditure on the State benefit and assistance schemes in 1975 of the order of £350 million. The home assistance service which is financed from the rates is administered—as Deputies are aware—by 31 public assistance authorities, or by health boards acting on their behalf, subject to the general direction and control of the Minister for Social Welfare.

A person is eligible for home assistance if he is unable, by his own industry or other lawful means, to provide the necessities of life for himself or his dependants.

Applications for assistance are made to the local assistance officer who implements the service in an assistance district of convenient size within each administrative area. In urgent cases, and pending decision by the appropriate authority, the assistance officer can grant to eligible applicants assistance in food, fuel and other necessaries. All applications are dealt with by the appropriate authority which decides whether a person is eligible and what assistance should be given.

Generally grants of home assistance are not made for more than one month at a time but in cases of permanent infirmity they may be renewed every three months. The home assistance service, as at present operated, has been the subject of widespread criticism for years. My own views on the service have been expressed quite unequivocally in this House.

Surveys of the service have shown that, because of major defects in its structure, it operates in an arbitrary and far from satisfactory manner. Major inequalities exist as regards the standards of eligibility and levels of payments as between one authority and another and even within the same authority in the treatment of basic needs. Similarly, in the manner of supplementation, wide differences in the treatment of similar cases are evident. This scope for local variation and for arbitrary exclusion stems from the wide differences in the financial circumstances of the various local authorities involved, as well as from the fact that the existing law does not, with any precision, define the circumstances in which assistance may be paid or the amount of assistance to be provided.

Perhaps the most serious criticism of home assistance has been that its operation has always been discretionary, with no right to assistance existing for the applicant. Arguing for the extension of social assistance to cover all social contingencies and needs, Professor Kaim-Caudle—in his important survey of social policy in the Irish Republic—has made the point that discretionary allowances, without any right of appeal or review, have all the unpleasant flavour of the poor law.

Criticism of the home assistance service has been a feature of social and political comment for many years. Indeed, the debate in this House on the Public Assistance Bill, 1939, contained some striking contributions which reflected the existence even then of much disquiet about various features of the scheme. Speaking on the Second Stage of the Bill—on 6th June, 1939, at columns 537 and 538 of the Official Report— the then Leader of the Labour Party, the late Deputy William Norton, said that:

Here in this country, both in our approach to the workhouse system and to the manner in which we distribute relief, as well as in the low scale of relief which we provide, we proceed to assume, I am afraid, in our approach to that problem, that poverty is something on which you are entitled to upbraid a person... there is very little real effort made to raise either the conception of life or the conditions of life of those who are unfortunately compelled to resort to it for sustenance.

That criticism was made 36 years ago in the course of a Dáil debate on a measure which was designed to do more than codify and co-ordinate the poor law code. These words very clearly summed up the underlying philosophy of the poor law and its defects.

Perhaps the most striking criticism of the service is that contained in Séamus Ó Cinnéide's study, A Law for the poor, published in 1970. In this he stated that:

It may be argued that home assistance is very different from the outdoor relief given under the Poor Law from 1847 but the facts contradict this. Now, as then, persons in need have no right to assistance; they are dependent on the goodwill of the authority which gives assistance and cannot have recourse to any appeals machinery, including the courts. Now, as then, no great effort is made to seek those in need and the public image of the service is forbidding. Now, as then, the emphasis is on saving the ratepayer's money. Now, as then, the method by which assistance is given is inconvenient and compromising of the self-esteem of those who must avail themselves of it.

If it can be said of any social service that it is compromising of the self-esteem of citizens of our country, then surely the time for reform cannot be further delayed.

One recent social survey among poor people showed quite clearly that more than a quarter of persons who were actually receiving home assistance at the time of interview did not admit this fact to the interviewers and the author of the survey was forced to the conclusion that this was due to a basic feeling of shame associated with the service.

Another survey has underlined this most serious issue of the stigma attaching to a poor law type of service. A pensioner was quoted as saying: "I wouldn't go within a mile of the home assistance—it has the brand of poverty on it", and a young mother was quoted as describing her feelings: "People make you feel like an outcast when you are on assistance —you would think it was out of their own pockets the money was coming."

Whatever may be the technical or theoretical criticisms of the existing home assistance service, I believe that this element of stigma is by far the most important reason for reform. Improvements such as those proposed in the Bill cannot change attitudes but they can contribute to removing the most obvious causes of those attitudes and to ending the social division between home assistance recipients and the members of the community which appears to be an inevitable result of the present system. The present law, therefore, includes provisions deriving from the poor law which are unacceptable in a modern welfare system. I can refer here to provisions such as that which makes it an offence, punishable by imprisonment, for a person in receipt of assistance to refuse or neglect to perform a task of work which he is required by the Act to perform. Such provisions, which go back to the poor law, have been inoperative for many years but their existence demonstrates the need for radical reform.

In proposing this reform, I want to state again that a scheme such as home assistance has always been necessary and that it has been an essential service for many people. Its inherent defects have, however, rendered the service to a large degree ineffective in human and community terms.

The general criticism of home assistance to which I have referred has, at times, involved criticism of the officers who have had the task of implementing it over the years. I cannot go along with such criticism and I wish, at this stage, to place on record my appreciation of the work of the home assistance officers throughout the country who have sought to apply the terms of an outdated and thoroughly defective scheme with humanity and with concern to relieve the deep-seated problems of many individuals and families in distress. I hope that the new proposals contained in the Bill will provide all who will work to implement them with a more suitable framework for their efforts in the future.

I turn now to the detailed provisions of the Bill which will introduce the new system of supplementary welfare allowances. The reforms envisaged by this Bill are designed to meet pressing need in a flexible and speedy manner while at the same time guaranteeing to all persons who have to depend on the service a standard basic minimum income as of right in place of the arbitrary and variable payments they may receive at present. These basic payments would be subject to a standard means test.

While uniform basic rates must be a fundamental feature of the new service, the diversity of recipients and the variety of the circumstances which cause them to seek assistance require that there must also be a considerable element of flexibility in the service to meet particular needs. The service must, therefore, include provision to permit the basic rates of allowance, or, indeed, the payments under the various State income maintenance services, to be supplemented so that the special needs of individual claimants may be met. Similarly, there must be flexible provision for special aid in emergencies.

Another objective of the new service is that it must be capable of being co-ordinated on a family-oriented basis with a comprehensive range of non-monetary social work services, the overall objective of which will be to break the cycle of poverty in which some families find themselves. There must also, of course, be the maximum possible co-ordination between the service and the social insurance and assistance income maintenance services administered by my Department.

It would not be possible to achieve the broad uniformity of approach required in dealing with these matters if they were left to a number of independent administrative authorities to work out for themselves. Administration of the new supplementary welfare allowances scheme through the health boards, which will apply national standards and national guidelines, will eliminate the territorial inequalities of the existing system in relation to standards of eligibility and payments, and will enable the service to be operated within the framework of the community care services of these boards.

The Bill provides that every person in the State whose means are insufficient to meet his needs and those of his dependants will be entitled to supplementary welfare allowances. Providing allowances as of right will remove one of the main poor law connotations of the Public Assistance Act, 1959, under which assistance is provided purely on a discretionary basis.

As I have stated earlier, the home assistance service has over the years been replaced in very large measure by special schemes which give rights to benefit to specified categories of persons in need. The provisions of benefit as of right for persons in need who happen to be excluded from such special schemes is a feature of corresponding residual benefit services in other countries with highly developed systems and is long overdue in this country.

The new arrangements whereby an allowance is available as of right, instead of at discreation, means that specific exceptions must be made to ensure that only cases of genuine need are covered. An exception is, therefore, made in the case of students receiving full-time education who as individuals could be regarded as having no means but who are, in fact, normally the responsibility of their parents. Provision is also made to exclude persons in full-time work and persons directly involved in trade disputes.

I should like to make it clear, however, that these exclusions are not absolute. In the first place, a person in any of the categories excluded may receive an allowance where there is urgent need. Also, even where urgent need does not exist, a person receiving full-time education could in exceptional circumstances be paid an allowances, an example being a student who is the head of a household. Similarly, although persons in full-time employment will normally be excluded, a person who has been receiving an allowance while out of work may, under regulations to be made by the Minister, have his allowance continued for a short period after he starts work to help him in the transitional period. The provisions for exclusion of persons directly involved in trade disputes are similar to those applying in relation to unemployment benefit and assistance, except that power is included to allow payments in respect of dependants to be made during a trade dispute.

While the administration of the home assistance schemes is, under the Public Assistance Act, 1939, a function of the public assistance authorities, that is, the corporations of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford and 27 county councils including North and South Tipperary, these authorities have, except, in the case of ten county councils, transferred their functions in that respect to the health boards under powers given by the Health Act, 1970.

The new supplementary welfare allowances will be administered by the health boards subject to the general direction and control of the Minister for Social Welfare. Claims for the new allowance will be determined by the chief executive officer or other officers of each board acting on his behalf.

Subjects to regulations to be made by the Minister, a health board may determine that a person shall not be entitled to the new allowance unless he is registered for employment. It is intended that provision will be made in regulations for general exemptions from this rule in the case of persons incapable of work, persons over pensionable age, women with dependent children and other classes of persons where the condition of seeking employment would be inappropriate. Persons who make application for the supplementary welfare allowance may also be required to make application for any statutory or other benefits or assistance to which they may be entitled.

I have already referred to the fact that home assistance is given at the discretion of the public assistance authority, an approach which follows closely the antiquated tradition of poor relief. Another notably repugnant feature of the Public Assistance Act, 1939, is that there is no provision for appeals by persons against the decisions of the authorities in relation to their applications for assistance. As I have already explained, the Bill provides that persons in need will be entitled as of right to allowances under the new scheme. The corollory to this proposal is that there should be provision for appeals. I am glad, therefore, to include in the Bill a proposal that where a person is dissatisfied with the determination by an officer of a health board of his claim for supplementary welfare allowance, an appeal shall lie against such determination to a person appointed by the Minister for Social Welfare.

The basic standard amount of supplementary welfare allowance which will be payable to a person without means will be equivalent to the maximum rate of unemployment assistance applicable in rural areas. Thus a person who has no means and no dependants will be paid £7.35 a week and a person with an adult dependent will receive £12.80 a week. Increases for dependent children will be payable at the same rates as those which apply under the unemployment assistance code.

A man, wife and two children shall, therefore, receive £17.50 or, if there are four children, £21.10. A single person with four children could receive £15.80. In the case of persons who have some means those basic rates will be reduced by the amount of such weekly means.

These proposed rates compare very favourably with the national average of payments made by way of home assistance. In a survey made some months ago it was ascertained that the average payment to a person receiving home assistance, otherwise than as an addition to other statutory benefit or assistance, was £4.91 to a person without dependents, or £9.11 in the case of a recipient with dependants.

Whilst uniform basic rates of allowance will constitute an essential feature of the new service, there must, as I have already mentioned, also be an element of flexibility in the new scheme to enable it to meet a wide variety of individual needs and circumstances and to enable appropriate additional payments to be made over and above the basic weekly rates of allowances. The Bill includes provision for supplementation where the basic weekly rates of the new allowance or the weekly rates of other statutory social insurance or assistance payments are insufficient to meet individual needs. Such special needs could, for example, arise in relation to rent payments, heating or diet requirements, or in the case of persons living alone or dependent on an allowance over a prolonged period.

While the amounts of supplements will fall to be determined by the health boards having regards to the particular circumstances of individual claimants, it is desirable that the provision of supplements should, where practicable, be standardised for all health board areas. The Bill, therefore, enables the Minister, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, to specify by regulations circumstances which will give rise to supplements and the amounts to be paid in relation to particular classes of claimants. These regulations may provide for additional help in the form of assistance in kind.

Another essential requirement of the new scheme is that there should be standard uniform rules for the assessment of means, and the Bill includes provision for these. The rules for calculating means will, in general be on the same lines as those used to calculate means for entitlement to unemployment assistance, but it may be found necessary, in the light of experience of the new scheme, to vary the rules if these are inadequate to deal with particular circumstances which may arise. Provision is, accordingly, included in the Bill to enable the means rules to be varied by regulations with the sanction of the Minister for Finance.

I have been speaking thus far about supplementary welfare allowances in the category of normal weekly payments and I would like to refer briefly now to provisions in the Bill for other forms of payment of the allowance. First, allowances in kind may be granted in lieu of case where a health board considers that the needs of a person can best be met in that way. Secondly, a single payment may, where a health board sees fit, be made to meet an exceptional need arising on a single occasion as opposed to continuing special expenses which would be met by an increase in the weekly payment.

I should like now to say a few words on the question of liability to maintain dependants. The Bill provides that, without prejudice to other obligations imposed by law or otherwise, each spouse will be required to support the other and either will be liable to maintain his or her children under the age of 16. these provisions are broadly similar to those in the existing legislation but the further provisions of the 1939 Act which stipulate that every legitimate person is liable to maintain his father and mother and every illegitimate person his mother are being dropped. The proposals in the Bill restrict the liability to maintain to the immediate family unit and this represents a departure, for the purposes of the new scheme, from the extended and outmoded concept of liability under the Public Assistance Act, 1939.

In this regard, I might mention that the liability of a child to support his parents for the purpose of entitlement to disabled person's (maintenance) allowance under the Health Acts was eliminated in the revised provision made in the Health Act, 1970.

It follows from the provisions regarding liability to maintain dependants that, where a person receives supplementary welfare allowance, every person who is liable to maintain that person should be liable to contribute according to his ability to the allowance granted. The Bill includes provision accordingly and empowers a health board to apply, where necessary, to a district court for recovery of allowances from the persons liable to maintain who are in a position to pay, or make some contribution towards, the cost of the allowance paid. The court would, in such case, fix the amount of the contribution to be made by the relative who is liable.

At present public assistance authorities are responsible for the burial of deceased persons who died leaving insufficient resources to provide for their burial, or whose relatives, if any, are unable to meet the cost. The Bill includes provisions to enable health boards to make arrangements for burials in such circumstances and empowers them to obtain repayment of expenses incurred where appropriate from the estate of the deceased person or from any person who was liable to maintain the deceased person.

I turn now to the question of the financing of the new scheme. At present public assistance authorities meet the full cost of home assistance expenditure from the rates. I have already mentioned that one of the reasons for the lack of uniformity in the treatment of applications for assistance in the different public assistance districts is the fact that poorer countries cannot afford the same level of assistance as is provided elsewhere. If, following the present system of financing, each local authority had to bear the full cost of the new service in their area there would be a very substantial increase in the local rates in the poorer counties where home assistance standards of payments are generally lowest and, consequently, where the cost of bringing the levels of payment up to the national standards envisaged for supplementary welfare allowance would weigh most heavily on ratepayers.

The Government have examined very carefully the question of the financing of the new scheme and consider that it is not unreasonable to require local authorities to bear the cost which they are now required to meet for home assistance, together with a share of the additional cost of supplementary welfare allowance. Under the proposals in this Bill each local authority's contribution to the total amount to be paid by all authorities will be determined by reference to what they are now spending on home assistance so that the poorer areas will not have to contribute a higher proportion of the total cost than they are doing at present.

The new financing proposals are briefly that expenditure under the new scheme will be met partly by payments to the health boards from the local authorities which are at present public assistance authorities and partly by grants from the Exchequer. I will explain now in greater detail how these proposals will operate.

Local authorities who are at present public assistance authorities will in respect of each full year of the operation of the new scheme pay to the health board in whose area they are situated a sum equivalent to their expenditure on home assistance in the year 1975. In addition, 40 per cent of the amount by which the total expenditure of all health boards on supplementary welfare allowances in the year in question exceeds the total expenditure by all public assistance authorities on home assistance in 1975 will be borne by the local authorities concerned. Each such authority will pay to the appropriate health board a share of that 40 per cent. The allocation between the authorities of the 40 per cent of the excess cost will be determined by the proportions in which total expenditure by all public assistance authorities on home assistance in 1975 was shared between them.

Broadly speaking, therefore, if the expenditure of a public assistance authority on home assistance in 1975 is one-twentieth of the total expenditure by all public assistance authorities in that year, the local authority concerned will be required to pay one-twentieth of 40 per cent of the excess cost in question. Expenditure by health boards on supplementary welfare allowances over and above that covered by receipts from the local authorities, that is, 60 per cent of the excess cost will be met by grants from the Exchequer.

If the new scheme commences other than at the beginning of a year the arrangements I have outlined will apply on a pro rata basis in respect of whatever part of a year is involved.

The administration costs of the new scheme will also be paid by the local authorities who at present are public assistance authorities. Local authorities in each health board area will share the administration costs in similar manner to that in which local authorities share their contributions to the health boards under the Health Act, 1970.

I want, in this connection, to stress again the importance which must be attached to the local involvement in the working of this new scheme. If the grave social problems which lead to eligibility for supplementary welfare allowances are to be solved and if the persons concerned are to be supported and helped to achieve their rightful place in the community, then there must be a genuine connection between the income maintenance service and personal social services. It is generally accepted that effective personal services should have a sound community basis which can be ensured by the work of the community care sections of the health boards.

I come now to the question of the cost of the new scheme. The cost of home assistance in 1973-74, the last complete financial year for which figures are available, was, as I have said earlier, about £2 million. The proposals which I have outlined envisage the termination of the home assistance scheme and the substitution for it of a new service, and the statistical and other information necessary for an accurate estimate of cost is not available.

It is difficult to gauge with any degree of accuracy the effects of the replacement of a purely discretionary service at local level, by a service providing standard payments as of right to be applied uniformly on a nation-wide basis. On the basis of the available information, however, it is estimated that the overall yearly cost of the Bill proposals, excluding the cost of administration, will be of the order of £4.5 million.

Taking the estimated cost of home assistance in 1975 to be £2 million, the additional cost of the new scheme will, therefore, be about £2.5 million. On the cost-sharing basis which I have described, the local authorities will be required to bear 40 per cent of the excess cost, that is, 40 per cent of about £2.5 million which is £1 million. Thus the cost to the Exchequer in a full year will be approximately £1.5 million.

On the commencement of the new scheme, the staff of public assistance authorities who have been engaged on the administration of home assistance will be transferred to the health boards. The Bill includes provision to safeguard the employment and superannuation rights of the staff so transferred. I might mention in this regard that some public assistance authorities who have transferred their home assistance functions to health boards have also transferred their staff, so that the transfer of staff to be affected as a result of this Bill will apply only to the remaining authorities.

I have already referred to the work of the home assistance officers in the operation of the existing scheme. If the proposed new service is to achieve its objectives it will depend to a considerable extent on the day-to-day efforts of the staffs engaged in its implementation. I look forward to the preparatory work which will be needed in coming months prior to the introduction of the new scheme—work which will call for close collaboration between the staffs of involved, the community care staffs of the health boards, the appropriate unions and representative organisations and the officials of my Department.

All property of public assistance authorities which was used solely or mainly in pursuance of their functions under the Public Assistance Act, 1939, will on the commencement become the property of health boards and with the exception of two sections which are still required in connection with the administration of the health services the Act itself will be repealed.

To meet any difficulties which may arise in bringing the new service into operation, the Bill includes a provision empowering the Minister to take appropriate action by order to remove any such difficulty. This power will continue for one year from the commencement of the new scheme. Similar provision was included in other social welfare legislation introducing new services, for example, the Social Welfare Act, 1952, the Social Welfare (Occupational Injuries) Act, 1966 and the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Act, 1973. Any order made under this provision must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and could be annulled by resolution of either House within 21 sitting days.

The Bill includes transitional provisions which will enable reference in other statutes, orders or regulations to matters affected by this Bill to be modified where necessary, as a result of the replacement of home assistance by supplementary welfare allowances. These provisions also include measures designed to protect the interests of persons claiming or receiving home assisttance at the transition stage.

Other proposals in the Bill deal with the Minister's power to make regulations for the purposes of the new scheme. Provision is also included for bringing the Act into operation by order. I am anxious that the new scheme should be brought into operation as soon as possible. However, before doing so it will be necessary to complete the organisational arrangements and to make the regulations which, as shown in the explanatory memorandum, will cover a wide variety of matters.

I want to refer now to an important, and relevant, element in the work programme of the National Committee on Pilot Schemes to Combat Poverty. The Committee have decided to undertake a project designed to assess the effectiveness of the reformed scheme proposed in this Bill and to indicate ways in which further and improved services could be brought about for the groups and individuals concerned. The project will seek, also, to ascertain through experimentation the best methods of providing for the total needs of recipients of the new allowances with a view to ending the cycle of poverty experienced by such persons.

This scheme has been submitted by the committee to the Commission in Brussels for inclusion in the programme of pilot schemes and studies to combat poverty which was approved by the Social Affairs Council in Luxembourg last week.

I regard this project of actionresearch as having a most important role in relation to the development of our policy in this area of hard-core poverty and deprivation. There will be a "before-and-after" survey of recipients which will enable the research workers of the committee to evaluate the practical changes brought about by the implementation of the changes provided for by the Bill and to assess their effectiveness. There will also be a survey aimed at categorising problems, identifying proximate causes and seeking appropriate services to deal with them. The whole project will be carried out in close collaboration with appropriate specialist personnel, such as public health nurses, psychiatrists, health board staffs, officials of national manpower services, and so on.

It is envisaged that the project areas will consist of one urban, or largely urban, and one rural assistance officer functional area in each of two counties. The counties chosen for the project will be probably characterised by high and low levels of payments under the existing home assistance scheme. Planning and preparatory work in connection with this project is proceeding and the field work will commence in the autumn period. I see this project as a most imaginative contribution to our policy-making and review procedures.

In the overall planning of the social welfare system, it is my concern to see developed a single assistance scheme, envisaged and operated in such a way as to be an adequate complement to the comprehensive scheme of social insurance which is being created. This assistance scheme would provide supplementary income maintenance to any person in genuine need.

Supplementary support should, of course, be available as a social right and should be backed up with a proper set of personal and community social services geared to the long-term solution of social problems. It would eventually encompass the existing assistance payments service and would have responsibility for the various ancillary services such as the provision of free transport, free electricity, and so on. The criteria would be simplified, as far as possible, to become equated to need.

I believe that it should be the task of social assistance to enable the recipient to lead a life in keeping with his dignity. Social assistance must, therefore, enable the recipient as far as possible to live independently of it and should be an aid to self-help. In all cases, aid under such a scheme should be concerned not only with specific payments and actions designed to meet material and care needs, but also with the prevention of isolation and with including the individual as far as possible in the full life of the community.

I can say, at this stage, that the National Committee on Pilot Schemes to Combat Poverty are planning to undertake research into the adequacy of certain social welfare payments as part of their welfare rights project. This study will be carried out in the context of a programme of practical intervention aimed at ensuring that all existing social rights are obtained by those who are eligible. I hope that this project will contribute to our understanding of the way in which our social welfare system works and of the degree to which it meets its stated objectives. The work of the national committee will, in this way, be directed in all its aspects to provision of useful information for policy makers at local and national levels, and, indeed, at Community level.

I have on other occasions, described the home assistance service as a disaster, thus echoing the opinions of many informed critics over the years, and the reform of this outdated scheme has been a priority in my approach to the development of a comprehensive social welfare system. In the context of the Government's programme to combat poverty, this Bill is one of major importance in that it proposes to eliminate from our social legislation the last vestiges of the Victorian poor law.

The Bill breaks new ground and provides for a number of important reforms to which I have already referred. While these improvements will free beneficiaries from the stigma of the poor law tradition, I am conscious that the Bill is not an end but a beginning. It is only reasonable to expect that operational experience of the new scheme will indicate areas in which improvements are necessary and the provisions will, therefore, be subject to constant review towards that end.

In conclusion, I hope that the reform initiated by this Bill will have a positive effect upon public attitudes and, thus, in helping the overall thrust of policy in the fight against poverty. It cannot be said often enough that policy changes in the social area depend upon widespread public awareness and understanding which can lead both to acceptance of the cost of social services and to real involvement in them. Without this support and involvement the most radical policies and programmes will not get to grips with the human problems experienced by individuals, families and groups in our cities and towns and throughout the country. This is particularly true in respect of the proposed new scheme of supplementary welfare allowances which are intended to deal with the problems of perhaps the most deprived groups in our national community.

It gives me great pleasure to recommend this Bill to Dáil Éireann for speedy and favourable consideration.

The Parliamentary Secretary has given a very comprehensive explanation of the Bill. I should like to pay tribute to the parliamentary draftsmen who drafted the explanatory memorandum. In the past they have not distinguished themselves in their drafting. This is the second occasion in my membership of Leinster House, and particularly in my capacity as Opposition spokesman, when I had the pleasure of understanding the explanatory memorandum on a second reading of it. The first time I read it in a cursory fashion but on the second occasion I read it in a more detailed way and understood most of what was in it. The explanatory memorandum to this Bill has one single distinguishing feature above most of the other explanatory memoranda in that it is readable and can be understood. Therefore I wish to compliment those who are responsible for it.

The Parliamentary Secretary is inclined to dwell to a great extent on the financial aspects of this Bill. We know the money being paid is being categorised in the same way as that paid under unemployment assistance. The same scales of entitlement apply. The Parliamentary Secretary is inclined to fall into the trap—I do not think it is deliberate on his part but it is readily apparent in the emphasis he places on it—that the Government should continue to take great credit for the money they are paying into the social welfare kitty.

This Bill is about poverty. Proposals regarding the transfer of the administration of the public assistance boards from the local authorities to the health boards, the transfer of staff, property and contracts revolve around the one issue of poverty. That is what this Bill is about and it is what should concern this House. In his speech the Parliamentary Secretary used the phrase "the cycle of poverty" at least three times. If this House did nothing other than discuss poverty in the context of this Bill it would be fulfilling a very important function.

What is poverty? Is it to be equated with a lack of finance, of education, a lack of decent living accommodation or a decent environment? It is to be equated with all of those factors and it must be spoken of in the same breath as these matters.

With certain exceptions this Bill gives statutory effect to the amount of money to be paid—no more and no less. There can be a once-and-forall payment in certain instances where there is a situation of hardship. If an individual who would be entitled to allowances has not signed at the Labour Exchange this Bill envisages that he will not be entitled to supplementary welfare allowances, but there are certain exceptions made in this case also. It is quite proper that should be the case. Like the Parliamentary Secretary, I do not think this Bill means the complete abandonment of the stigma of the public assistance syndrome but it goes some way towards bringing about the abandonment of that stigma. That is not a bad thing.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned a number of people who have made a study of the cycle of poverty, what constitutes that cycle, how they define poverty and its effect on individuals. I am very glad to see the debate will be based on the family unit. Quite properly, this country holds the view that the family is sacrosanct and should be protected at all times. However, one wonders if we have discharged our responsibility in that regard in the total sense. We pay lip-service to the concept of the protection of the family, but do we protect all families equally? To be absolutely honest, the answer is that we do not.

Other speakers, by virtue of being public representatives, will be in a position to say what the cycle of poverty means to them. There is one definition, that in relation to a family, poverty is transferred from generation to generation. The grandfather cannot get out of the abyss of poverty and transfers his hopelessness to his child and the child in turn transfers it to his children and the cycle continues. The itinerants are an example of what happens if persons are not attended to, are not recognised, are not given the equal opportunity by the State to which they are entitled. They are an example of the family cycle of poverty. The grandparents living in a shack or a tent on the side of the road did not get the educational opportunity that would help them to uplift themselves.

Consequently, they could not uplift their children and improve their way of life. By so-called civilised standards they were not acceptable to their better off brothers who, up to recently, did little or nothing to help them out of their situation. Now there is a proper awareness of this problem and there is very good work being done by various committees for the travelling people. Tribute should be paid to these committees for their efforts to bring the travelling people, or itinerants, or tinkers, out of the family cycle of poverty.

There is a campaign by the Catholic Church to raise money for projects, the theme of which is "Every man is my brother". When we come to discuss this Bill publicly one wonders whether or not full force is being given to that doctrine, particularly in the context of one of the most deprived sections of the community, the travelling people.

One wonders whether the Bill will improve the situation of this and other deprived sections of the community. I am taking the itinerants as a bona fide example of a deprived community and relating their situation to the Bill as a clearly identifiable and accessible example. Will the Bill improve the condition of the travelling people? Will it integrate them into society? If it is a beginning, it is a good thing. If it does not achieve that objective, amongst others, it is a bad beginning. Will it improve the situation for the next generation of travelling people? Will the next generation, as a result of the Bill, become full members of society? Will they have the educational opportunities which their elders were deprived of? Certainly, the lack of opportunities, particularly in relation to living accommodation, for some of these people is a national scandal. We are all to blame for it. No section of the community can wash their hands of the responsibility. Let us accept the responsibility.

Poverty in the context of the people I am speaking about is the poverty of lack of education, of inadequate living accommodation, of lack of environmental amenities, of lack of cash. The travelling people are poor within the definition of poverty that I have given. There are people who have gone into this question much more deeply than I have. I can only speak on the basis of what I have seen and experienced and know in my capacity as public representative.

The condition of persons living in some centre city areas of Dublin does not fill me with pride, quite the contrary. These people do not want sympathy or pity. They want a decent opportunity to live and to make their contribution to society. I shall not describe some of the centre city housing as slum dwellings because I do not want to insult the decent people living in them. If there were a more modern word than "slum", I would use it so as not to give offence. That is the type of poverty we are speaking about: the centre city areas where there are no open spaces, where the nearest community hall is a pub. I mean no disrespect to our publican friends. They are entitled to a living. Nevertheless, there should be alternatives to public houses as community centres where people would be able to breathe fresh air rather than cigarette smoke. That is the sort of environment that people have to endure in some areas of this city.

Poverty does not begin and end there. There are other areas, in the cities and in the country, where people are living in poverty of one description or another. It does not all relate to finance. You could give a man £100 a week and he would still be poor in the sense of the definition I have tried to tease out.

I do not think this Bill can go even a small way towards uplifting people. All it does is offer money. That is not the panacea. As it has been described elsewhere, the answer is a comprehensive survey into the identification of poverty in the community. The Parliamentary Secretary will be setting up a home assistance project in the autumn. I would appeal to him to begin that project within a month or two of the operation of this Bill. I would envisage that the Bill will get a quick and urgent passage through the House, within the normal time limits of any debate we wish to have on it. Certain aspects of the Bill concern us and we will be considering the introduction of amendments. When the Bill becomes law the home assistance project will come into operation almost immediately. I would like to see it coming into operation immediately. One could understand that it may not come into operation immediately until we see how it works. In some areas a home assistance project is already in operation through the health boards.

An effort was made to define poverty at a conference on poverty in Kilkenny from 19th to 21st November, 1971. This was a very comprehensive study and, among others, it was one of the first efforts to define the real meaning of poverty to people who are affected by it. There are many definitions. Professor James Kavanagh of the Department of Social Science in University College, Dublin, asked at the beginning of his article what did being poor mean. He said he thought they could agree it means being deprived of something which one might reasonably hope to have. He suggested that when you go into the definition of poverty you go into an area of confusion and debate. Many Deputies will have their own definition of what poverty is.

There is an interesting description here which supports what I have been saying. He said there are some people who might possess a fortune of £1 million and who might feel deprived when they thought of others with £2 million. The professor is reminded of the story of the American billionaire who appeared at breakfast in a very bad humour. Apparently something had upset his digestion. He said to his wife: "I feel lousy. I feel like a million dollars." For him to descend from being a billionaire to being a millionaire would represent severe deprivation. For most people, this kind of deprivation would evoke little sympathy but rather derision. If a billionaire feels like a million dollars he feels deprived and that is his definition of poverty.

He would be caught under the wealth tax.

He would be caught for 10 per cent of one million dollars. He would not vote for Fine Gael. The professor then goes on to describe the characteristics of poverty and he makes a plea for a widening of the concept of poverty so that it will include not only the bare subsistence nutritional levels which have been regarded as the indicators of poverty but which for other theorists are the cutting off lines of poverty. He says that the ordinary decencies of living such as having a roof over one's head, health, educational opportunities, recreational facilities, participation in decision making at the industrial and community level, are basically human rights. I agree.

What we are speaking about in this Bill is the right of a person not to be poor. Of course, people are entitled not to be poor. The old cliché that the poor we will always have with us is a lot of nonsense. We should work towards a society in which we will not have any poor people in the sense of the deprivations I have been speaking about. There are people who because of their make up and their character will always be poor in the intellectual sense or in the sense that they will not be able to provide for themselves. No matter what people do on their behalf they cannot get above themselves. In those circumstances the State has an obligation. They are the lost people in society in the sense that they are lost to themselves. They should not be lost to society. Society is entitled to seek them out and give them the opportunities within their own limitations to which they are entitled.

The Parliamentary Secretary accepted a very nice booklet from the national committee on pilot schemes to combat poverty. It is a very comprehensive booklet, set out in a very pithy and understandable form. I am all for that. I do not think booklets or schemes should be produced to confuse people. They should be there to help them. This booklet envisages a home assistance project. This project relates to the Government's recent decision to introduce a new scheme of home assistance to replace the present one. The committee is offered a unique opportunity to assess the manner in which the new provisions will change the lives of those who now depend on home assistance. The home assistance project will have two aims: (1) to assist the new scheme of home assistance and suggest ways in which it may be further improved and (2) to ascertain, by experimentation, improved methods of providing for the needs of home assistance recipients.

The Parliamentary Secretary said somewhere in the region of 30,000 people are being assisted in this regard and that the cost of providing these people with the very minimum in cash or in kind is somewhere in the region of £2 million. We wonder if this Bill will make any difference when it is implemented. Certainly, it gives statutory effect to what already exists to a great degree and it introduces a number of new provisions, such as the appeals mechanism in respect of an amount awarded by a health board officer in his new capacity, as distinct from a home assistance officer. Another departure is in regard to being able to pursue the husband, or the provider of a family to maintain his family, to be able to go to court and obtain the money by court order and, in the event of the money being paid out by the health board, to enable the money to be recoverable by the health board. That is a proper provision.

Some time ago we were discussing the 19th interim report on Court Practice and Procedure which deals with maintenance and desertion, an area in which the Government have fallen down badly. We have been promised something by the Minister for Justice before the summer recess in regard to maintenance and desertion but, perhaps, when the Parliamentary Secretary, is replying he might refer to this. Section 17 will not affect the wife's entitlement to pursue the husband for maintenance and anything obtained in the courts by way of maintenance would not be affected by section 17. I may not be quite clear on this point but I shall come back to it later when I refer specifically to my notes in regard to points that I consider must be raised on the Bill.

Social welfare, as the Parliamentary Secretary said indicates a society concerned about its citizens. This Bill is all about poverty and the effort to come to grips with it, not so much an effort to alleviate poverty by some form of financial entitlement. There is more to poverty than this. To return to the conference on poverty held in November, 1971, Seamus Ó Cinnéide of the Institue of Public Administration submitted a paper, The Extent of Poverty in Ireland. The purpose of his paper, as he said, was an effort to quantify the extent of poverty in Ireland meaning the Twenty-six Counties. It was an effort by him and his colleagues to come to grips with the nitty gritty of poverty and get down to its real meaning. In his effort to quantify the extent of poverty he focusses on material poverty which he says one would assume is more easily definable and measurable than poverty in a wider psychological or cultural sense. Even in regard to material poverty there are, he says, major problems of definition and methodology.

That is the real problem : you cannot stick to one concept or one definition of poverty and Mr. Ó Cinnéide and others have decided on this. When he decides to quantify the extent of poverty, having regard to his discipline, he recognises that the cycle of poverty is not limited to one concept but includes cultural, environmental—to some extent these are intermixed—educational, social and so on. He tries to treat poverty in the material sense and he sets out to define and estimate it. Traditionally —and traditions in poverty research are not much older than this century, to quote the article—have been based either on nutritional standards or income levels or a combination of both. That tradition has now been exploded and for the purposes of this debate we might as well accept that the traditional concept of poverty has now gone; we must redefine poverty.

Mr. Ó Cinnéide says that one can define poverty by nutritional standards and find out the number of persons whose intake of food is traditionally inadequate and call them poor. This gets away from the idea of income and takes account instead of how people use their income to meet their basic physical needs. On the other hand, it does not take account of needs other than food and the extent to which people, whether they achieve an adequate nutritional standard or not, can meet them. A nutrition survey is very time-consuming and expensive. The last extensive nutrition survey was done in the late forties and the reports were published in 1948-50. These results gave no cause for alarm at the time. Alternatively, he says, one can define poverty by level of income with variations according to income unit and estimate the extent of poverty by doing a comprehensive income survey which would show the distribution of income throughout the population. The only thing approaching this was the household budget inquiry in Ireland which was conducted in 1965-66 and previous to that in 1951-52.

One of the most revealing statistics in the paper comes at the very conclusion of this article on the extent of poverty in Ireland where it is stated that the estimate of 24 per cent of persons being poor considering basic family units is put forward as a minimum. The actual proportion of persons who are poor on this basis is probably nearer 30 per cent. On the other hand, some of the poverty, he says, as estimated in relation to basic family units is undoubtedly relieved by transfers between households. Even with such transfers, the proportion of persons who are poor by the standards set out in this article is probably in the region of 20 per cent. More accurate estimates would require detailed research and, perhaps, a useful start on this would be the standardisation of definitions of units in respect of which income data is calculated.

Having given a lengthy discourse on his definition of poverty, Mr. Ó Cinnéide came up with the conclusion that in 1971 the estimate of 24 per cent of persons being poor, considering basic family units, "is put forward as a minimum". On the basis of his compilation, the actual number was probably 30 per cent. So much for the definition of poverty in an effort by those individuals to quantify poverty.

One could go on giving different definitions and interpretations of what poverty means. Of course the effects of poverty are another thing and this Bill does not give succour other than the very basic financial help which is envsaged in it for those people about whom so much concern was expressed in Kilkenny in November, 1971. One wonders whether the home assistance project under the National Committee on Pilot Schemes to Combat Poverty, when they go into the field to operate their proposals, will find any difference pre the Supplementary Allowances Bill of 1975 and post that Bill.

This Bill certainly does not propose any revolutionary changes. It sets out to transfer the operation of home assistance schemes under the local authorities to the health boards. It proposes the transferring of property held by the various local authorities in this connection to the health boards and the transferring of home assistance officers to the boards and to reestablish them in the health boards with their previous term of reference in relation to duties and other matters.

In this respect I join with the Parliamentary Secretary in his tribute to the home assistance officers. As he said, the home assistance scheme was basically codified in the 1939 Public Assistance Act and this Bill is repealing that Act with the exception of section 3, the definition section, and section 86 which deals with the transfer of the county fever hospitals and other related matters.

One wonders why section 86 is not also being repealed by this Bill. It is understandable why section 39 should not be. The Bill introduced a number of new features, such as the right of appeal from public assistance or health board officers, and the idea of recovery of contributions to supplement the welfare allowances by the making of applications to the district court by the health boards. There are new features in regard to burials. The idea of a pauper's grave is still in the Bill—the poor man will still be buried wherever he is found. It is an awful and tragic thought. When an unfortunate individual dies he could be a miser with a hoard of money and the health board can pursue the estate to recover expenditure on the burial.

This Government are wont to give lip service to the idea of equal pay for women and to the abandonment of various discriminations under various codes, particularly the social welfare code, but there is very clear discrimination in section 10 (2) of the Bill. I know that when I put down an amendment to it I will have the full support of the Government having regard to the effect of the subsection and the oft-stated wish of the Government to translate into legislation their position in regard to women. In this section there are a number of references to a married man, his wife, his qualified adult dependants. I quote:

(2) In this Act—

"adult dependant" means—

(a) in the case of a married man, his wife if she is living with him or is wholly or mainly maintained by him,

(b) in the case of a married woman, her husband if he is incapable of self-support by reason of some physical or mental infirmity and is wholly or mainly maintained by her, and

(c) in the case of a widower or unmarried man, a female person (being a person who has attained the age of sixteen years) having the care of his child dependants and wholly or mainly maintained by him.

I am open to correction and if the Parliamentary Secretary has an adequate explanation I will accept it but this seems to put an unemployed married woman into an inferior position. Why not use the terms "man" and "woman" in the Bill? What is the reason for the phrase "female person"? This Bill is supposed to be bringing us into line with today's thinking but, instead, it goes back to the 1840s. However, I expect now that I have raised this question of the phraseology in this subsection, an amendment will be accepted on Committee Stage.

While there is provision for a widower or unmarried man in this section there is no reference to a widow or to an unmarried mother. What is the reason for this discrimination? Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give us an adequate explanation for this but as it stands this discrimination exists. Within recent days the widows have written both to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Social Welfare enumerating their complaints but their main one, discrimination, is being carried on in this Bill. We must stop this discrimination against both widows and unmarried mothers?

Who introduced the allowance for unmarried mothers?

One might ask, also, who introduced an allowance for deserted wives but there is no point in going back over that area. We are concerned about a system which purports to be non-discriminatory while the discrimination is continuing. I do not care, and neither does anybody else, who are responsible for bringing in any of the allowances.

The Deputy hopes people do not care. He is being very critical of legislation which was enshrined in our laws when his party were in power.

The important point is that the allowances are payable. However, after Thursday next it will be a matter of clearing out their offices so far as members of the Government are concerned because I am informed by the most reliable sources, namely, the people of Ireland, that they are fed up with them.

This is more wishful thinking.

This is the situation known to anybody in touch with the grass roots. The type of legislation being continued here is that which the Government indicated their intention of abandoning. Deputy O'Brien has said that the Government must be given credit for some improvements. That is so. They introduced allowances for unmarried mothers but it was Fianna Fáil who recognised the existence of deserted wives. Deputy Haughey, in his 1968 budget, and at my urging, introduced this allowance but we are prepared to give credit where it is due. We must consider, though, how effective is the system and in this context we must draw attention to the discrimination against widows and unmarried mothers in this Bill. On Committee Stage Fianna Fáil will introduce an amendment to deal with this situation, that is, if the Government do not pre-empt us by introducing an amendment to deal with the glaring discrimination to which I have drawn attention.

The whole concept of social welfare is that of a caring for society. Every citizen should be included in this sphere. Unfortunately, it would appear that the social welfare code applies only to those who are in need of financial assistance. As the Parliamentary Secretary stated, our social welfare system has evolved from the middle of the last century. It has evolved from Victorian times when the horrific situation of the poor became so obvious that aid was initiated by the philanthropists for the socially deprived who, subsequently, became the responsibility of the government and gave us the system we have today. However, we are at a relatively early stage of development in this area and we must continue to evolve to a point where social welfare will take on its true meaning—the good of society. We must endeavour to remove the emphasis from the monetary consideration and direct it towards a caring concept. Of course, the monetary aspect cannot be abandoned. Nobody would suggest I was attempting to do that. Rather we should be re-directing our energies towards the education of people into a caring community. There is, in the public mind and in the minds of many people in this House, the idea that the total function of the social welfare system is that of financial entitlement. That is not its total function and should not be seen as such.

In addition to whatever financial benefits to which our social welfare recipients are entitled, we must cultivate within the community a sense of involvement, by the community for the community, bearing in mind that such beneficiaries are of the community and live in the same community as other individuals who may be better off or who may have better opportunities. Consequently, it is the total function of the community to care for the less well off.

Many people have a feeling about becoming involved in voluntary organisations, about caring, but that is not sufficient. One must have a commitment. The only way in which one can commit oneself, in the community care sense, is to get out into the community, involve oneself in an organisation and commit oneself fully to whatever may be the ideal one wishes to see fulfilled. Most ideals and hopes are capable of achievement. But, in the community care sense, the only way people can commit themselves is by becoming involved.

We should now be sowing the seeds of future development by making people aware of their own and others' needs, through research into methods of community work at present in operation in other countries to ascertain how best they could be adapted to suit our needs. We should also encourage communities to use facilities already available in their areas, such as parish halls, community centres and so on. Schools might also be made more useful. People seem to think the only function of a school building is for the education of children. Certainly that is its primary function but a school building should not merely open at 9 o'clock in the morning and close at 5 o'clock in the afternoon. From 5 o'clock in the afternoon until 10.30 or 11 p.m. it should be open for use by the rest of the community, in the sense that it could continue with adult education courses and so on. There could be use made also of a community hall, if such were available within that building or group of buildings.

It would be naïve of us in this House to assume that any programme involving community participation could be activated without proper planning by experts in this area. It is for this reason that we in Fianna Fáil have initiated a study group to examine the needs about which I have already spoken, to examine the whole concept of community care. We are doing so as one of the proper roles of an Opposition and on a voluntary basis. We do not have the machinery of the civil service at our backs, for the time being ——

Fianna Fáil had it for long enough.

I said we do not have that machinery at our backs for the time being.

That is why the Deputy's party are over there now.

We have given a loan of the machinery to the present outfit. We will be back; there is nothing surer than that.

If I may conclude on the theme of social welfare, on how it is seen to operate and is understood, we see it as being in a very embryonic stage evolving towards a concept of community care where each member is asked not so much what he can get out of it but what he can contribute.

Deputy O'Brien asked what we had done during our 16 years in office. We built up a social welfare code which typified a decent attitude. Successive Fianna Fáil Governments introduced many new schemes to care for the less well off sections of the community. If there is one, and one only criticism of the evolvement of the social welfare code it is that there was not a certain unity of approach in relation to the whole concept. The present Government have introduced two, three or four schemes. If one measures what they have introduced against Fianna Fáil's contribution over 16 years, one will find that it pales into insignificance. Of course, the Government have introduced a couple of flashy new schemes. I exclude in that respect those introduced for the unmarried mothers, prisoners' wives and such people. But there is one thing which distinguishes this Government from that of previous ones and that is, that any scheme on any given topic, by any Department, is announced almost out of existence. They announce they will set up a scheme, and if they do so once, they do it 20 or 25 times. It is like the announcement of the local defence force scheme which they announced approximately ten times—

A Deputy

Or the drainage of the Shannon.

Yes, that has been announced on many occasions. But those are perfect examples of a Government announcing things out of existence. Certainly, were credit to be given for blowing their own trumpets at every given opportunity and for doing nothing, the Government would deservedly receive full credit.

There is another area about which we must be concerned in the light of this Bill. That is, that fewer people are contributing more indirectly to the fund from which social welfare entitlements are paid. We have now over 102,000 people unemployed in our community, which is a very serious situation. My view is that those people would much prefer the dignity of work to the indignity of the unemployment dole queues. I would decry any suggestion that the main bulk of the unemployed working force are so unemployed because that is what they want. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are there because the Government have no policy in relation to the provision of employment. After Thursday we shall see. They are then introducing their third official budget since the first official one at the beginning of the year. Of course, there is an unofficial budget every other day of the week. They will be introducing their third official budget then. Or is it their fourth? One tends to lose track—

The Deputy might as well make it six.

We hope after Thursday for the benefit of the country, if not for the benefit of the Government, that things will improve. People in employment are asking where will it all stop, when will the Government take action.

Is this on the Bill?

Of course, it is. Are we not talking about unemployment assistance, the dole and the equation of the entitlements paid under this Bill ——

No. Did the Deputy not read the Bill?

I understand the Bill completely and the Parliamentary Secretary will find that out on Committee Stage. He has been caught out now in regard to his discrimination against women and he will be exposed on this occasion from this side of the House on Second Reading and he will also be exposed on Committee Stage. He need not introduce an element of glee. This Bill is not a panacea and it does not necessarily eliminate the stigma of public assistance. When the Parliamentary party discussed the Bill last Wednesday I said that the Parliamentary Secretary would introduce the Bill with the words "This Bill is being introduced to abandon the stigma of public assistance". Those are the very words he used. We hope it does. We will give any support to ensure that it abandons the stigma of public assistance.

Do I take it the Deputy is not opposing the Second Stage of the Bill?

The Deputy will find that out when the matter is put to the House and not before then. We will have to see what the attitude of the Government and the Deputy Esmondes of this world is in relation to the Bill and how honest they will be about it. Our attitude will then be taken up. The Deputy can take it that the Second Stage will be passed without too much dissent. We are entitled to be critical of it during Second Stage but we will not obstruct it by dividing on it.

Any Bill that goes some small way towards the beginning of the abandonment of the public assistance attitude is to be welcomed. It is on that basis that we would not vote against the Second Stage. It is not correct to suggest that this Bill is the beginning of a new era. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the National Committee on Pilot Schemes to Combat Poverty are undertaking research into the adequacy of some social welfare payments. The people going out to do the home assistance project will find the Bill does not change the lives, the environment, the housing accommodation, the educational standards and opportunities of these people. We are concerned about that.

A person living on his own without a dependant will get £7.35 a week. It is not good enough if the people engaged on this project only find that this man is getting £7.35 more than he got before the introduction of this Bill. It is important the man should get a very basic sum of money but will the Bill change the previous method of the distribution of home assistance?

The Parliamentary Secretary and I paid tribute to the work done by the home assistance officers and the manner in which they discharged their duties over the years. Before the introduction of this Bill the home assistance officer was entitled to give any individual who came to him an amount of money which he considered proper to give that person the very basic necessities of life. If the home assistance project team see such an individual after the introduction of this Bill and if they see an improvement in his living accommodation, his environmental condition and so on, then the Bill may have achieved something.

The Bill basically gives statutory effect to the amounts already payable by the home assistance officer. I have known a man to get £8 from a home assistance officer and I have also known a man to get £8, a few extra shillings for the children and clothes from a home assistance officer. The Parliamentary Secretary also knows this has happened. I hope I know something about this particular subject. The Parliamentary Secretary knows well that home assistance varies from county to county, having regard to the rates element and the amount of rates which go towards home assistance. In poorer areas the home assistance officer gives less money because he has not much money available to him. In the so-called wealthy areas he can give more because he has more money available to him. If we are abandoning home assistance and introducing a new element of dignity into the entitlements envisaged by this Bill, would the Parliamentary Secretary consider, by regulation, abandoning the idea of people queueing up for social assistance benefits or social welfare supplementary welfare allowances?

I know in some areas the money is delivered to the individuals concerned but there are areas where people have to queue for the money. It is an appalling concept in 1975 that people should go cap in hand to some individual, no matter how good he may be in his particular job, and queue up, no doubt in full view of every passer-by who knows very well what is going on. If this Bill solves that problem it has real meaning but if it does not we are only humbugging.

I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to introduce a scheme de novo to provide that these people are paid by cheque or visitation from the new health officer operating this scheme. We should stop the dole queue with the begging bowl in the hand attitude. These people have their dignity. That is one method of protecting them. From time to time we are inclined to be hurtful about the less well off sections of our community and inclined to adopt the penny halfpenny syndrome of looking down on a penny. The amounts to be paid under the Bill are given statutory effect. These amounts will last for as long as a person is not able to provide by his own work for his own wellbeing. That could last for a long time; so, consequently, the system would not break down if these people were to be paid by cheque or by any other system other than the queueing system. We should eliminate the system whereby they must go to the hole in the wall to be paid what they are entitled to.

There are many facets of the Bill which are of some concern to us, and we will be dealing with them on Committee Stage. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to explain the financing of the health board expenditure as set out in section 20 of the Bill. We understand that the 1975 figure for expenditure of public assistance will be taken as a base and that that figure, plus 40 per cent of anything paid over and above that for successive years, will be the amount paid by the local authority to the health boards. The explanatory memorandum states that provision is made whereby the local authorities will also pay the costs of administration by health boards of the supplementary welfare allowances scheme.

The Parliamentary Secretary, in the course of his speech, stated:

I come now to the question of the cost of the new scheme. The cost of home assistance in 1973-74, the last complete financial year for which figures are available, was, as I have said earlier, about £2 million. The proposals which I have outlined to you envisage the termination of the Home Assistance Scheme and the substitution for it of a new service, and the statistical and other information necessary for an accurate estimate of cost is not available.

It is difficult to gauge with any degree of accuracy the effects of the replacement of a purely discretionary service at local level, by a service providing standard payments as of right to be applied uniformly on a nation-wide basis.

This again proves my point that it is giving statutory effect to what is already in existence. The Parliamentary Secretary continued:

On the basis of the available information, however, it is estimated that the overall yearly cost of the Bill proposals, excluding the cost of administration, will be of the order of £4.5 million.

Taking the estimated cost of home assistance in 1975 to be £2 million, the additional cost of the new scheme will therefore be about £2.5 million. On the cost-sharing basis which I have described, the local authorities will be required to bear 40 per cent of the excess cost, that is, 40 per cent of about £2.5 million which is £1 million.

Thus the cost to the Exchequer in a full year will be approximately £1.5 million.

As the Parliamentary Secretary is aware public assistance at present is taken from the rates. The Government, in discharge of a promise, have taken the health charges off the rates, as we understand it.

Health charges were taken off the rates and we are fulfilling all our promises.

We will come to that another day. We ask the Government to abandon altogether the payment by suburban dwellers of rates on dwellings. The Government are, by stealth, adding to the rates burden of our people. Having regard to the good envisaged in this Bill the people will not have a great objection to paying. However, it has to be pointed out that this Bill envisages an increase in rates. We have already heard that the middle income group are being burdened continuously. The middle income group have about had it; they are exhausted by the rates and other taxes imposed upon them by the Government. They cannot go on.

The lower income group pay income tax and rates also.

I accept that, and I would prefer if the Deputy awaited his opportunity to make his speech. I know Deputy O'Brien is as concerned about income taxation, and the proposed increases on Thursday, as I am. I know he is as concerned as I am that this dreadful Government are going to impose further taxes on our people. The people seem to be paying for the Government's mistakes. When the last budget was introduced we were told that there would be no difficulties and that the employment situation would be better than ever. Now the Government have to introduce another budget but again they give us the promise that things will be better than before. If we were to equate the future with the past the future would not be much to look forward to.

I have no doubt that the middle income and lower income groups will pay their rates and discharge their income taxation, without any great objection to paying an equitable contribution to the Exchequer. They are willing to pay their due share as citizens and are as patriotic in doing so as any other sections of the community that Deputy O'Brien or others may have in mind. What I am saying is that they have had enough and cannot soak up any more. When the Government come to introduce whatever penal laws they intend introducing on Thursday, will they keep in mind the two sections of the community I am speaking about? The average decent artisan or manual labourer can go thus far and no further. The Government are taking every drain of incentive out of the country with the present policy. This Bill before us was introduced with the usual Coalitionese and verbiage as to what a great improvement it is going to be: "happy days are here again" and "things have never been better", to use two current clichés.

On the financing of the health board expenditure, if the Government are serious about transferring health charges from the rates to the Central Exchequer, they should accept responsibility for the charges envisaged by this Bill. They are transferring the functions, the staff, the contracts, the buildings and anything else within the corporate ownership of the public assistance local authorities from the public assistance local authorities to the health boards. Therefore there is no reason why the charges on the rates should not be transferred from the local authorities to the health boards and consequently be paid from the Central Exchequer.

The rates are liable not only for the financing of the health board expenditure in the payment of social welfare supplementary allowances, but also for the administration cost of the payment of those allowances. Of course there is nothing in the Bill about the liability for the payment of the officers who will be taken over by the health boards, and the Parliamentary Secretary might give us information on that.

The Bill is seen by the Government and by the Opposition as a new scheme in the sense that it now transfers the operation of public assistance to the health boards and all things deriving therefrom, but let me return to the provisions of the Bill and not take up too much time in its examination because we shall have another opportunity of discussing it on Committee Stage. There is an anomaly in section 16 which provides:

(1) For the purposes of this Act and without prejudice to any obligations imposed by law or otherwise, the following provisions shall have effect—

(a) every man shall be liable to maintain such of his legitimate children as are under the age of sixteen years;

(b) every woman shall be liable to maintain such of her children as are under the age of sixteen years;

(c) every married man shall be liable to maintain his wife and any child of his wife, who was born before her marriage to him and is under the age of sixteen years; and

(d) every married woman shall be liable to maintain her husband.

(2) Every reference in this Act to a person who is liable to maintain another person shall be construed as meaning a person who by virtue of subsection (1) of this section is liable to maintain such other person.

"Every man shall be liable to maintain such of his legitimate children as are under the age of 16 years." Why not "every man shall be liable to maintain such of his children as are under the age of 16 years?" I appreciate that, under the Illegitimate Children's Act of 1930, a man has a statutory obligation to provide for the welfare of his child up to the age of 16, but why does the Bill exclude illegitimate children? The Minister may have an adequate explanation for this, but in the meantime we shall be putting in an amendment, and if there is not an explanation for it then surely the Minister must accept the amendment. When there is enshrined in legislation the idea that a man is liable to maintain his wife and so on and that every married woman shall be liable to maintain her husband in certain circumstances, I think it is merely a statement of intent, and it is a section which probably could have been left out of the Bill. It would not have made that much difference. However, it would have some real meaning if the provision stated "Every man shall be liable to maintain such of his children as are under the age of 16 years" and exclude the word "legitimate".

As I understand it the man is not liable to maintain his illegitimate children under the age of 16 years. Does this mean he is not liable to maintain—and Deputy Esmonde, if he was here, would be able to help me on this—his illegitimate children under the age of 16 years but is liable to maintain his illegitimate children over the age of 16 years? I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to exclude the word "legitimate".

Section 17 deals with the recovery of contributions to supplementary welfare allowance. If there is an immediate sort of fire-brigade situation where the husband deserts his wife and the provisions of the deserted wife's allowance do not apply immediately in that event then section 17 can be brought into immediate effect. It is a worthy section. It is a section which gives health boards an opportunity. It is a new departure to a great extent in the context of our legislation. As I understand it, certain local authorities have a right against an individual who does not discharge his debts. To bring this concept, however, into a Bill of this nature is a good idea and all praise is due to the Parliamentary Secretary in this respect. Where a person is found to be neglecting his wife and children and former Acts or regulations do not actually provide for that wife and child or children, then section 17 is a worthy section. It provides an opportunity to proceed against that individual; in the first instance, to let the individual know that they want the money back from him for his wife; that, in the event of his not paying it they will go to the District Court to get a court order against him to claim payment of that money. That is as it should be Everybody will welcome that section.

The only other matter of concern to this side of the House is the position of the staff officers who will be transferred from the public assistance authority to the health boards. It is not quite clear in the Bill but we would hope that the conditions of employment will not be affected in any way and that superannuation will be fully protected; in no way should job opportunities or promotion be adversely affected. All these matters must be fully protected when these staff officers are transferred from the public assistance authority to the health board. It is extremely important that the Parliamentary Secretary should keep that in mind.

Another cause for gratification is the provision ensuring that where difficulties arise under section 27, the Minister may by order made within one year of the appointed day do anything which appears to be necessary or expedient, including modification of the Act. Any such order will, of course, be laid before both Houses and, if it is not challenged or annulled, effect will be given to it. It is a good idea that the Minister should have a regard to the social welfare and the beneficial aspects of the Bill and have that power under section 27. If the Bill is found not to be working in a particular direction the Minister will try to cure that and in curing it he will bring an order before both Houses and, after 21 days, that Order becomes effective.

I should like once more to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for giving us an opportunity of making a contribution to a Bill of this nature. It is not often the House has an opportunity of discussing what this Bill is all about, namely, poverty.

Like the previous speaker, I welcome this Bill. It is long overdue to anyone who has any experience at all of how home assistance works. It definitely makes the recipient feel poor and, as a result a large number of people who are in need and want money will not approach the home assistance officer because of the stigma attaching to it. Deputy Andrews raised the point as to how claims will be made. We are also concerned about that because upping the ante or giving an increase is all very well but, if the system is basically the same, they will at least now be entitled to assistance by statute. If, however, they have to go to the same building, the stigma will remain. They will not want to go to this establishment if they do not qualify for any other form of social welfare, and we should have a look at how we are going to deal with this aspect—where people will apply and how they will get paid. There is then the question of where people find themselves in an emergency situation. It is important that the red tape must be cut to meet emergencies.

The whole purpose of supplementary welfare benefit is to meet particular types of hardship and, to achieve that, one must have humanity and flexibility. I realise it is not always easy to have flexibility but, in schemes such as this, it is desirable that flexibility be applied.

I know a man who was on disability benefit and was knocked off for some reason or other. He is unable to work because he has a particular complaint. I was informed he was knocked off for 13 weeks because he had not the requisite number of stamps. He approached the home assistance officer: he had no money and the home assistance officer gave him a food voucher. It is a good thing that approach is now being got rid of because rent and other financial commitments have to be met. Being handed a food voucher is degrading to the applicant for help.

This Bill will neither eradicate nor make any great impact on poverty. The elimination of poverty could take a considerable time and this is only one step towards eliminating poverty. The Bill does not set out to eliminate poverty. I am glad pilot schemes are getting under way and that we can expect to see some positive action in the field of eliminating poverty at some stage. It is a question of what is poverty and how do you define poverty. There are degrees of poverty. There is the poverty of lack of the necessities of life, the poverty of bad housing, of education and of culture. These aspects are all intertwined, not one is separate from the other. When we discuss poverty, we have to look at the reasons why there is poverty. Somebody once said that poverty is an attitude of mind. I suppose in many ways it is. If you think poor, you will be poor. No matter what assistance we give some people they will remain poor.

That brings us to something I am always talking about—education, the philosophy of life, why we are here and what contribution can we make. Affluence has brought a degree of comfort to many people but it has also brought a degree of selfishness. People tend to want for themselves and are not terribly concerned about poverty in certain areas of this city, which, on the surface, look reasonably well off but behind the doors there is quite a degree of poverty. There are elderly people living on fixed incomes who are not aware of their entitlements. This morning I came across a 77-yearold lady who was living in very poor circumstances—on the old age pension. She was not aware that she could get a waiver of rates. The top portion of the house in which she lives is completely dilapidated because she cannot afford the repairs. We talk about community care, but this is part of it. Community care is all right when people know where to go, but are we doing enough field work in seeking out problems? Even if these people are aware of their entitlements they are nervous to approach people in authority. A great amount of case work should be done to ensure that the people we are talking about, the genuinely poor— are aware of their entitlements, their rights and the help that should be given to them, such as home assistance. In the case I saw this morning, there should be some way by which the portion of her house which cannot be lived in because of its condition could be repaired. That could be considered as part of our community care. Liaison between the health boards, the communities and the people involved at community level should take place. Only by this type of involvement can we know about poverty and take the necessary steps to rid our society of it. Housing conditions have improved over the years.

The present Government are committed to a housing programme, particularly a centre-city housing programme in Dublin. We are in the process of acquiring 150 acres of land, when this is developed community life in the centre of the city will be working. Even in poorer parts of Dublin poverty is not as great as we might think, because of the community spirit and the way people help one another. All these community organisations should be co-operating with the health boards and other organisations towards a common end —the elimination of hardship and poverty. Only by doing this can we hope to rid ourselves of poverty. It is easy to write many well chosen words about poverty and how we propose to rid the community of it.

I welcome and look forward to the reports on poverty that have come in, and the quick action to be taken to ensure that we are working towards a just society. The Fine Gael Party, since 1965 have advocated a policy of "Towards a Just Society". This is the type of society basically people want. They do not want a society with tags attached to it. They want a society which is a friend with all the people.

Deputy David Andrews was concerned about the middle income group who were being soaked by the rates. I reminded him that the lower income groups also paid rates and taxes. By and large the people realise that if they want services they have to pay for them. There is no other way around this. If we have to improve service, it has to be paid for and people expect this. There is not any good saying they cannot soak up any more. I believe that where worth-while policies are being implemented the people will support them.

What amazes me is that over the last couple of months capital gains and wealth taxes have been bitterly opposed in this House. People have made vast fortunes on land acquisition and sales, and have not been paying tax. We have introduced this legislation to ensure that this type of tax reform takes place, that the middle income group, who are being soaked, will realise that we are aiming at the upper level for money to implement a better social welfare system. We can only do that by implementing a better form of tax. This is being done very graciously by the Minister for Finance despite very articulate opposition from inside and outside this House. If this tax reform had been done a number of years ago we would have more money today to devote to social welfare, and industrial development which require furthering from time to time.

It ill behoves Deputy Andrews to talk about better social welfare schemes, better this and better that, when they must be paid for. When we ask the people whom we believe can pay the money Fianna Fáil oppose the legislation. I believe this is hypocritical and shamming of the worst type. I would like that to be recorded in this House. I have no time for that type of thing. If we want to change our society and make it a better place to live in, we must pay for it. The people who can afford to pay make their money from the less well off in our society— the working class. I believe they are entitled to their share of whatever there is to be shared and that can be by social welfare benefits or better income tax or in some way like that. I believe even the other side of the House would want a better social welfare system but we must pay for it. The Opposition spoke about the great reforms carried out by them. We are only in office a couple of years but if we consider the amount of money the Government have donated for social welfare payments and compare it with what the Opposition, when in Government, paid out, it makes them look like a party who were not very concerned.

We must introduce legislation of this kind where we see it is necessary. I felt all along that this type of legislation was desirable, as was the home assistance scheme. As the Parliamentary Secretary said, it was not the home assistance officers who were responsible because they were only carrying out instructions. Where assistance is on a discretionary basis it puts the onus on an individual which in my view, he should not have. From now on the limits will be set out and even if the health board officer decides a person is not entitled to benefit that is not the end because the person concerned can appeal. By giving people the benefit of this appeal system we are making this a more humane Bill. We are concerned and we will go as far as we can to ensure that the people will get their entitlement.

The appeals system in the Department of Social Welfare is fair; indeed, it has tended to bend over backwards to ensure that people got their benefits and, as far as we can afford that system, that is the way it should be. I was surprised at the small amount of money—£2 million—that was paid out in the present home assistance system. Of course the introduction of all the other schemes tends to cut down the number of people seeking home assistance. This is good and it highlights the fact that we have a first-class social welfare code. Obviously it will always need improvement, but the fact that the sum is so small indicates that, in general, people are catered for in some way or other in the area of social welfare and that is encouraging.

Deputy Andrews mentioned discrimination against the widows and unmarried mothers and he more or less indicated that it was discrimination against women. My reading of the Bill was, that a widow or an unmarried mother was already entitled to an allowance and that normally she would not come under the new supplementary welfare system. However, where the deserted wife or the widow might find herself without any money to meet her commitments, I should imagine that this Bill would cater for her as well. It has not been the intention of this Government to introduce any discriminatory legislation and I would not see this as legislation that intends to discriminate against women. I would like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary's view on this. Generally, as I said earlier, I am very happy with this Bill for the reasons that I gave. We must be careful in our new system to ensure that the stigma that formerly attached to home assistance is not perpetrated. People should not be obliged to queue up at the health board offices for their benefits. One should apply for a form, fill it in, have it examined and the payments should be posted out to the applicant. Many needy people will not apply for benefits because of the stigma attaching to the procedure. We have got to look at the whole system.

It is a question of giving the system some semblance of humanity. I do not think that the human being should conform to the system, because that would kill the whole desire to help. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that this will not happen. If it does not this Bill will be a tremendous step forward in that area of social welfare. It is just one of the vast areas involved in the social welfare spectrum, but I am most concerned about it.

First of all, it is ridding the statute book of another aspect of poor law legislation. It is something that should have been got rid of long ago but for lack of will or something else we did not do it. It is important that the whole aura of the poor law system be eradicated from all aspects of social welfare as quickly as possible to give people a sense of dignity. If people require assistance it is their right. It is not a hand-out, it is not something a Government have given them because it is the right time to give a hand-out. They are getting a payment because they are entitled to it, because they are citizens of the nation. They have a right to live and to provide for their families and that should be done by giving our services a real sense of dignity and of humanity. I think this Bill will be a tremendous success. I should like to commend the Parliamentary Secretary for this and for all the previous work he has brought before the House. Knowing him we can look forward to more to come.

I would join with the other Deputies who welcome the parts of the Bill that we on this side of the House agree with. I am sure every Member of the House and every citizen will welcome and appreciate any genuine effort to change our code of social welfare but I do take to task people, including, perhaps, myself, for being inclined to adopt a superior attitude, that we are going to do something great, that we in the National Assembly are bringing in legislation which it is our duty to introduce. We seem to start on the wrong premise, implying that we are giving out largesse and that we are great people here to have thought of this. In adopting this attitude, we are undoing some of the work we might do. We are instilling into the minds of people who will benefit from the Bill the fact that the State, big brother, is dispensing alms. We often criticise people who lived 100 or 150 or even 50 years ago for their attitude to social welfare. You will find on examination that our attitude is not much better than theirs was. We have a lot more wealth to distribute or redistribute and our educational system has advanced very much. We may find that the people who genuinely tried to operate the old poor law acts were just as good as we are. They had to pioneer the way in this field. We tend to deride them and to call them "do-gooders." They may have been but we also fall into that category if we take credit for the fact that we have a Bill which will, I hope, mean something better for the people who will benefit by it.

I should like to see our attitude towards social welfare one of help and education, that every one who will draw benefit under this Bill will be made to believe that he or she is wanted, and that we are not just doing it for the sake of appearances but are genuinely concerned for each person, man, woman, boy or girl and, having a community spirit, want to help them and to educate them and, when they are old, to show that they have a place in society. If people believe that they have a place in society and that, no matter what age they are or what disability they suffer from, they contribute something towards the creation of a better society, they will be better citizens. Our social welfare code will be seen as having a soul and will not be merely a disbursement of money, food or clothing through the State agencies. This is where we fall down in our attitude to social welfare. It is a kind of cheque-book conscience. We issue the pension each week and we say that is that, we have done our duty. But, of course, we have done no such thing. We have given some money which, having worked as good book-keepers, we find we can afford to give and to the old age pensioner who goes back to her garret room in this city after drawing her pension we say: "We have given you your pension. You must now try to live in a rather competitive jungle which we call society." While this Bill will bring some improvement we should look at it very critically, calmly and coldly to see has it got any soul whatsoever, that it is not merely the extension of the cheque-book conscience. I feel we are not doing our job. We are doing a kind of a job. We are not giving the people the social welfare code which we with our beliefs should try to fashion, so that we as a small country, not very wealthy, would be healthy in our attitude to the people who are going to benefit.

The Parliamentary Secretary quoted Séamus Ó Cinnéide in his study—A Law for the Poor:

Practice may have varied over time and from place to place but the philosophy of the Poor Law was repressive and inhumane. We must have a new philosophy now.

In 20 or 25 years' time, whoever stands here and discusses social welfare may well find themselves agreeing with Séamus Ó Cinnéide. I believe we are just as culpable and deserve as much censure as Séamus Ó Cinnéide wrote in his book of the people who went before him.

How smug we feel when we read a book by Charles Dickens. We think of Oliver Twist. Because a boy asked for more they beat him and said he was a fool. We have the same attitude. A person who would now demand more from the State would be another Oliver Twist, who had the audacity to ask for more. Maybe the financial pensions to be given under this Bill, meet some of our modern standards. We do not know if those standards are high enough.

On Committee Stage we will propose amendments, and we hope they will be passed to perfect the Bill. There are some good things in the Bill and there are things that are not good. If we want to wipe out the old memory of the poor law system, how do we do it? It is very fashionable to criticise people who have to administer Acts. Are we giving them a proper system whereby any poor law stigma will be removed and people will be encouraged to avail themselves of the new benefits? The Parliamentary Secretary said:

One recent social survey among poor people showed quite clearly that more than a quarter of persons who were actually receiving home assistance at the time of interview did not admit this fact to the interviewers and the author of the survey was forced to the conclusion that this was due to a basic feeling of shame associated with the service.

The point I am making is made in the first and second lines they refer to "a recent social survey among poor people".

Any 19th century do-gooder could not have put it any better than to refer to a social survey among poor people. That condescending attitude is in this Bill. We could refer to people who are deprived of wealth, or health, or people who are handicapped in some way. We have not got rid of our attitude to the poor law system. This is a basic weakness in our legislation.

We should ensure that nobody wants for the basic necessaries of life. We should also try to find out why people will not admit that they draw home assistance. We know that very often gentle people who have seen better days are ashamed to admit that they are in need now. We should find out why they are ashamed. To my mind there is nothing to be ashamed of. Perhaps it is that they mistrust the establishment and would rather not take anything from it. The fact is if they do not want to starve they must accept assistance, but will not admit this.

Before we have a proper social welfare code we must examine not what we give to people, not how much money we give, or what service we give, but our whole attitude to social welfare. We are just as culpable, just as guilty of being do-gooders and creating that atmosphere among people who must avail of the State services. If we went back to the Middle Ages when they practised a much more civilised form of assistance we could learn from history what our attitude should be. We should find out why people cannot cope with our present day society, why people become recluses and do not want to avail of our services. If a person is suffering from an ailment he should get the very best treatment that will restore him to health. If an old lady, an old age pensioner, has to live in the top room of a tenement in this city, what is wrong with our housing situation? She should be given a proper dwelling to live in.

We have to go much deeper into our whole attitude towards that section of our people who have not got sufficient means and who cannot, by their own endeavours, provide themselves with a proper income to enable them to live, at least, a frugal existence. Looking at society today in Ireland or, indeed, elsewhere, many people would become rather frightened of what we see emerging. We admit there is world depression. I find in the city that much is lacking on the social scene. Many youngsters are living and sleeping rough because they have no homes to go to. If a boy appears before a court and is remanded on bail because there is nowhere else to send him, he goes out on the streets and lives rough and ends up in court again. This is not in the Bill, but the point I am making is that this is all part of our social welfare code. I have talked to some of these youngsters and they have no home to go to. If they demanded a home, I suppose we would regard them as the people of Dickens's time regarded Oliver Twist —the boy who asked for more. This runs right through our social welfare system. We are "upping" the payments under this Bill for certain categories. At the moment home assistance officers can give relief to people over and above what is spelled out in the Bill.

There was a case last week of a strike, or a lock out, and people were debarred from getting relief. That is covered in this Bill. The point is that we went through the motions of getting in touch with the Department and saying: "These men's wives and children have no food. Will you give them some help?" The civil servants rightly said they had to test it out because under the law the civil servants cannot say: "Yes; give these men help or their wives and children help". That was done about this day week and the applications were rejected. I got a man to go to the local health board to see if they could give him anything. Again, he was rejected there, which leaves a great big gap which the Bill will fill to some extent. Can you imagine that there were women and children in this city last week who could well have been deprived of food because there was an industrial dispute? Their menfolk were not working. They were not drawing any wages or salary and therefore their wives and children suffered.

If this Bill helps in this respect, fair enough, but I hope it helps in the proper way. We will be examining that section very critically. The point I am making is that it was brought home to me last week how grim things can be for a person in this city in 1975. On any occasion on which we get a chance to speak here we cannot be complacent because there may be some other section of the people who are suffering just as badly as these people suffered last week.

I hold the local home assistance officers in great respect. I found them to be men and women who were concerned and who would express their concern and would do anything possible to help. I would say the same of the Department of Social Welfare. Very often there are seemingly very long delays in dealing with applications for benefit. I know the Department must, of course, satisfy themselves that the cases are genuine but we should have a speeding up in the decision making and in the actual despatch of benefit to the people concerned.

We must encourage old people— we will call them genteel people— who do not like queuing for benefits. Deputy Andrews mentioned that payment by cheque would help. It would. Apart from anything else, cheques would curb to some extent the activities of people who rob depots and banks and post offices nowadays with great frequency. A cheque would give a pensioner a great sense of satisfaction. It would be a status symbol that a cheque was arriving each week by post. This might cost more money and it might cause extra work in the Department, but it would be well worth while.

I am sure no party in this House have a monopoly of concern for what people really want, and the people generally who can afford to be taxed to pay the benefits, do not want any demeaning condition attached to any payment or State pension. Therefore, the post office or the health centre should be a real community centre where people will come to be helped, and they should be encouraged to come there and if they cannot come, the pension will be sent out to them.

Before we begin congratulating ourselves on our enlightened attitude, we must change our whole basic attitude to the disbursement of the State funds which we apportion to social welfare. Perhaps someone will come up with a nice new title for social welfare. This evolved over the years and I am sure the people who first called it "poor law assistance" thought it was a good thing. At that time we had a much more distinct cleavage between the haves and the have-nots. It is still very much present today but not as evident. Today, we have a sort of hidden poverty.

If one goes through the city one can see many different forms of poverty. I can remember, when I was a boy in the city, that poverty was much more rampant and it was really grim then. Thank God, we have advanced from that, but there are still pockets of poverty which we must alleviate. We should underline all our social welfare legislation by saying that we believe there is more to social welfare than merely the payment of benefits. Social welfare should be a Christian approach to our fellow men and women who temporarily—I stress the word "temporarily"—cannot provide for their own welfare. I would write into every social welfare Act an educational clause whereby any person could be taught even a hobby, or a trade, whereby he would be preparing himself for the day when he could again become a contributing member of our society. The State should have evolved a system of social welfare— I would even call it human welfare— of which we could say: this is our code: it is a code designed to help people who need help at the moment. Further than that, it is a code which will help them to help themselves, that no person who cannot, by his own industry, provide for himself will be neglected. I am sure that every person who needs the help of the State to survive in some way in the past helped to create the wealth which we are now redistributing.

Our attitude towards State welfare should not be just to provide pensions for all those entitled to pensions. We do not want to create the idea that these people are depending on the State and therefore they will accept their pension and commit their lives. We must show them that the word "welfare" is given a much broader scope and that a person who perhaps because of lack of education, cannot take up good employment, is trained as part of welfare to enable him to take up good employment; or the person who is handicapped by some physical ailment is taught a trade or even a hobby to give him the feeling that he is contributing something to the national wealth.

We say that the various organisations do all this. They do, but the point is that we are not doing enough of it. Many a person ends up unemployed because of the neglect of somebody to take the trouble to ensure that person was trained when he was young to fit him for some useful occupation. People may salve their consciences by saying "We pay tax so that that person can be helped". It is true that we did not let them starve and we gave them some clothes and shelter but we did not emphasise that the person also requires the dignity of being useful to society. The State should preserve that dignity and encourage such a person to stand up and be counted among his fellowmen who are contributing by their efforts towards making a greater State which could disburse more.

As I already mentioned, none of us in this House has a monopoly of concern for the betterment of our social welfare services. It behoves each of us to try to improve this Bill. I hope my colleagues on this side of the House— and I know they will—will try to make it a better Bill on the next stage. I hope that when the Bill is passed in its amended form it will appear to those who are being helped that this is not merely another social welfare Bill. Perhaps we have been a little patronising in condemning the poor law system and the do-gooders' attitude. The people who went before, taking the circumstances of their times into account, were perhaps just as good or as bad as we are. We should stop looking down our noses at the people who, 150 years ago, tried to do something. Recently, I read a criticism of the English reformer, Elizabeth Frye, and the work she was doing in the prisons. Some of the comments are a bit trite but then against the background of those awful times of the English prison system, we see she was trying to do what we are now trying to do but we have the benefit of 150 years of hindsight and therefore we should do better. We have more wealth to distribute than these people had.

I will be studying the Bill with my colleagues on this side of the House. We accept the good parts and will try to amend even them. I hope that we will drop this attitude of trying to create the impression that this is a benign State disbursing largesse to the people who need it. The Bill will fail and all other Bills will fail unless we get it across to the people who are going to benefit by this that we are doing this because we believe society owes these people a debt in some form or another. We must try to give these people the best form of social services we can.

I welcome the Bill and compliment the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for introducing the Bill. I was amazed at the begrudging attitude of Deputy Andrews, Shadow Minister for Social Welfare, towards this Bill which I consider is a step in the right direction. As I sat here and listened to him bemoaning the fact that this Government's achievements in the social welfare field had been very meagre—I have been in politics for 20 years— I had to pinch myself listening to a man who had been part of a Government for 16 years and in that time I can well remember the budgets and the benefits in social welfare—half-a-crown for the old age pensioner and a penny on the pint and 2d on the plug of tobacco. I was amazed at his attitude. In many aspects of his speech he contributed in a good way but his attitude at the outset was one that does not become a shadow Minister.

This Bill shows concern for the under-privileged and is a genuine effort to reduce the poverty endured by the less well-off and by so doing to bring dignity into their lives. I know from my involvement in local authorities that the term "home assistance" was a degrading description of this very necessary assistance for people who had to come cap-in-hand to the home assistance officer looking for money to keep body and soul together in bad times. Thank God, this reminder of the bad days is now gone. Today we can say to the old age pensioner or persons living on their own, "It is now your right. You do not have to go begging and you do not have to go with cap-in-hand."

I should like to compliment the home assistance officers who were the agents by which this home assistance programme was carried out. These people were deeply involved in the community, knew the people who needed the relief and were prepared to do all in their power to assist them in their times of emergency. I should like to compliment them on their work in community care. They have become involved in this new aspect of rural Ireland where groups of people get together in voluntary organisations and help to the best of their ability the people living on their own in rural areas and others who are badly off.

This is the start of our fight against poverty, but there is a lot more to be done. Poverty is not money alone. Poverty is the position a person can find himself in when he has not a house, when he has been badly educated or has not a job. In the last two-and-a-half years our Government have achieved substantial progress in the field of housing and education. Today is one of innovation in social welfare development in our community. We have a lot more to do but I believe that with the goodwill of community care groups and with the work of voluntary organisations in each parish, this terribly degrading situation can be beaten so that people who are in such dire need can raise their heads and be proud of their situation in the community.

I am concerned at one aspect of this Bill. Perhaps at this stage nothing can be done. In 1970 when the Health Act was introduced and when health boards were formed, the Government gave the option to county councils to opt out of home assistance or to keep home assistance as their own responsibility, and from hindsight, having served on health boards and being involved in county councils, I am satisfied that my county, which was one of the ten that opted to hold on to home assistance, did the right thing. Our officers were concerned, they were among the people and were doing a good job. From my experience of the health boards since their inauguration I am not at all satisfied that this very important work of looking after the people who need looking after will be done to the best of the ability of the health board. I consider that the officers of regional boards are too far removed from the people and from the illnesses and the defects of the community around them. This Bill would have done a much better job if it had given the option to county councils to opt out and to continue with the service of caring for the poverty-stricken.

If at this stage the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary are not in a position to give this option, I would urge the Minister, in the light of my experience, to make it clear to the CEOs and the executives of the health boards that they are not dealing with numbers when they are dealing with cases such as have been dealt with under home assistance who are now going to be dealt with under this Bill. These are poor people who need assistance. Unless we can get this message conveyed to them and unless a separate body is established within the health boards to look after the application of this Bill, the people who need it most will receive the least, as has often happened before. With the best intentions in the world, administration can take most of the money and the people that need it will not get it.

Mention has been made of the cost. Deputy Andrews referred also to the health charges. I do not think anyone can be fooled by such a statement. It is apparent from our achievements in the last two years that the health charges have been transferred from the backs of the ratepayers. In the past year this Government have proved their concern to ensure that this inequality of rates burden and tax burden should be spread over a wider area. Despite the remarks of Deputy Andrews, these same Bills and enactments which are there for the betterment and the improvement of all our people have been bitterly opposed by the Opposition.

I wanted to be brief but I had to speak on the position of health boards looking after this Bill. I am worried about it, and I would appeal to the Minister concerned to ensure that this very important Bill be properly and humanely handled by the health boards to ensure the best good for the people concerned.

I also congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the introduction of this Bill. This is a very important piece of legislation as far as the poorer sections of our community are concerned. When this Bill becomes law people will be entitled to something by right of statute. They will not be going, as has been said, cap-in-hand looking for a favour. This is a very important thing in the field in which it operates. For very many years, even people who were in serious need were reluctant to approach a home assistance officer because of the stigma that was attached to seeking help and also because of the attitudes adopted by some, and I specify the word "some", home assistance officers. The interrogation people were subjected to in order to get the paltry shillings necessary to keep body and soul together was unjustifiable. This, thank God, has changed recently and I think this Bill should be the finish of it. People will now go to a home assistance officer, knowing they have a statutory right to benefits.

The category of persons to whom this Bill applies has been downtrodden for many many years. I am glad that the kind of benefit they can expect now is being stated clearly. They know that they can appeal to the health board against a decision which goes against them. That is a very important aspect of this Bill.

It was extraordinary to hear from the other side of the House that what is being done is not a lot. Their record in this field has not been good, this Bill is an attempt to give at least basic rights to people in need. It spells out the right of the individual who finds himself in the awful position of not having the necessities of life. It gives the individual the right to know what he is entitled to.

In most rural areas benefit is paid direct by post. Sometimes, however, a person's eligibility expires but he is not notified of this, so that suddenly, one Friday morning, payment does not arrive and he begins to wonder whether it was a delay in the post that was the reason. He waits for his postman on Saturday morning but still the cheque does not arrive. At that stage he goes to look for the home assistance officer which, I suppose, is unfair to that man, too, because it is Saturday and his day off. Even when he finds him, he has no proof that he did not get his cheque the day before. He is likely to be told that the cheque cannot be got out before Monday. That unfortunate man who has not been blessed with a lot of this world's goods for the past while back because he has been on disability benefit finds himself in the position of having no means at all for that weekend. This is a very serious mistake on the part of the Department of Social Welfare. If a man is on disability benefit he should have at least a month's notice as to when it is due to expire, whereas he probably is notified three weeks afterwards. There should be some scheme whereby the Department would notify the local home assistance officer of the expiry of an eligibility period. Then it would be the duty of that officer to see that the man knew his position and that he could be assessed for some other form of benefit. We just cannot leave people who are surviving on ordinary disability benefits for a number of weeks without any benefits. In this area there would have to be co-operation between the officer of the health board and the officer from the Department of Social Welfare.

Some home assistance officers have been fairly severe in interrogating people who have applied for home assistance but in the main the officers have operated the system in difficult circumstances and I congratulate them on that.

So long as the Government continue to show their concern for the less well-off they will have my full support. This Bill is a further measure of that concern for the less well off, not only for their needs but for their dignity. That is very important to anyone who finds himself in the unfortunate position of being in need of home assistance or supplementary allowance. They should be able to go manfully to the officer, knowing their rights. It is very important also that they have the right of appeal if the officer feels they should not be helped.

In regard to the health boards I am inclined to gree with the last speaker, Deputy J. Ryan, that they have become colossal and, very often, are remote from the ordinary people. In such circumstances the home assistance officers and section can be operated in such a way that they will be familiar with the needs of the people and the different areas. In general terms I believe the movement to health boards did not bring about the desired improvement of our services and did not warrant the cost involved. Having said that, if there is an officer in each area operating the scheme properly he will know his people. He will know, even in the circumstances I described earlier, whether he can take people's word.

I sincerely hope also that the benefits mentioned within the scheme are minimal and that, in certain circumstances, more will be allowed. There are many reasons I can point out why there should be extra benefits in certain cases. For example, if a man finds himself in the position that he has to apply for help under this Bill —he may be in a flat paying £8 to £10 for that accommodation for himself and his family. That is a possibility, and something that would have to be taken into account in the amounts to be paid out under the Bill. I know this has been operating to a certain extent. I think a previous speaker said it has been operating with regard to rents and other expenses a person normally has to pay —with the limit laid down here there would be exceptions where the officer on the spot giving the money, would be familiar with the situation; could check on it himself, and would be able to go outside the limits if the applicant's necessities so required. In certain circumstances a person must get his needs and even if boosted by the type of situation I have outlined must be allowed with the limit being exceeded.

Having said that, I believe this Bill is the first breakthrough since the old poor law days, removes the former stigma attached to home assistance, and gives a man the basic right to apply, knowing what are those rights, knowing that he can appeal if his rights, as he sees them, are refused by the officer concerned. Up to now he did not know what he should get, how much he should get. As far as I can ascertain, up to now the home assistance officer merely pulled a figure out of his head even if he recognised that the man was in dire need. For that reason, I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on introducing this Bill. I welcome it and feel it is a step in the right direction.

I do not propose nor do I think it is necessary that one need speak at any great length. One need do no more than welcome the proposals contained in this Bill, as has been said in the Minister's speech, not as a new comprehensive policy on social welfare but as another step forward, another step added to all those which have taken place, again in accordance with the Minister's speech, since 1939.

Ideally we would all strive for a society in which there would not be any need for that which is described as home assistance. The greatest contribution I might make is to appeal to all to stop referring to the stigma that was attached to home assistance because the more often we refer to it and the more often we use the word "stigma", the rose under any name will still remain, and there will remain an unwarranted stigma attached to any efforts made towards redressing the situation. It is an extraordinary position in a country with a society prepared to subsidise the medical student to the extent of almost £1,000 a year apart from his own fee—again it must be remembered that any third-level student does not pay for the service he gets. I had the opportunity of attending UCD and my indebtedness is not entirely to UCD but to the rest of the community who subsidised me while I was there. In every walk of life we have such evidence. We know what subsidies are paid and help is given. For some unknown reason we do not attach any stigma if it is given for third-level education but, if given for first-level education, there seems to be some reason why it should be stigmatised. I do not see why that should happen. Perhaps we are at fault by continually referring back to the poor law system, to the home assistance that is gone. Human nature being what it is, nobody wants—well, I will not say nobody but very few people want—to be associated with that which does not bring some form of compliment to themselves. I appeal to all sides that if we want to do what is proposed here and that contained in other legislation; if we want to indicate society's preparedness to admit that there are people in our community who for one reason or another cannot enjoy that which would be regarded as a normal standard of living—and there is a preparedness and an obligation on the rest of the community to so assist that group—there should be no question of any form of stigma, lack of dignity or anything of that nature being attached. Every day of the week we have subsidies and assistance being given in other areas. We have assistance being given to the strongest industries in the country. Nobody suggests that the managing directors of those industries should hang their heads because they are enjoying a form of assistance from the rest of the community.

We should not endeavour to make any cheap political points out of what we think the people are prepared to do for less well-off people. We should be prepared to indicate on behalf of the people that what is being done is for certain people who are in need of it. We want the system organised so that other members of society, who can live without this assistance will be unable to present themselves as true applicants for it. Nobody should lack the courage to say that we want whatever resources are there—we all know these resources are not unlimited— directed to the proper destination. We do not want other people, for whom they were not intended, trying to make an academic or technical case for their eligibility in this field.

I feel inclined at times to give up when I find myself pleading the case of an applicant who finds himself confronted with the terrible institutions which have been created to administer the schemes. If there is one thing contributing to the frustration, annoyance and the ultimate breakdown in the health of some of our people today it is the terrible anonymity which they feel, the terrible uselessness they feel, when contending with some of our institutions and some of our Departments that are there prima facie to help them but which, ultimately, seem to be there to thwart them.

I had occasion during the week to make what we politicians describe as appropriate inquiries, recommendations and representations to the Department of Social Welfare and employment exchanges in respect of a lady who finds herself in search of home assistance which she cannot get because the legislation which was intended to help her has been so overgrown with red tape and green ivy that it is not possible to identify her specific problem. Because of its link with home assistance and social welfare benefits I ask you to bear with me while I refer to it briefly, especially in the presence of the Parliamentary Secretary whom I know to be genuinely interested in this field.

This lady was employed for the last five years and at the beginning of this month she was declared redundant. She made application for unemployment benefit and because somewhere in the Department of Social Welfare her 1973-74 card had been mislaid that young, single lady is forced to go without any money until such time as her card is found. I have been told, having made inquiries, that "Action, Card Missing" has been put into operation. No money can be paid until all the relevant, bureaucratic regulations have been put into effect. Here we have legislation aimed at helping a person at the time when he or she is most in need of it yet we have this young lady, who unfortunately has no family, dependent on the charity of neighbours and other people so that she can remain alive. When she goes to the home assistance officer he, understandably, is exercising certain caution with her and there is a certain reluctance on his part to help.

We have been told that the spirit of the legislation will be carried out as expeditiously as possible. We hope we will not find ourselves ultimately confronted with a situation where that which is the normal right of the person under the legislation will be delayed because of some health board, Department or other institutional regulation.

We should be clear about what exactly we mean when we use the word "right". The right to what? The right to some form of assistance today having been satisfied some new need will be generated tomorrow. There is need for a specific definition as to what exactly we mean when we say that the person is entitled to this "by right". We have to clarify the special right and that to which he or she is entitled the better to clarify in the minds of the people from whom basically and ultimately the money must be obtained. This will bring to the legislation the sympathy of the people. The Parliamentary Secretary's speech refers to the anticipated defence of the ratepayers in this regard in so far as they are being obliged to pay 40 per cent of the proposed excess. It is no harm to ponder for a moment and satisfy ourselves on the extent to which the people in that category today are able to pay. We have in the rate-paying category—I do not intend to exaggerate the position—some people who are in need of home assistance.

Obviously, we must have some regard for their ability to pay. I do not want to labour the position of the present unhealthy state of the economy but we know, to say the least, it is not healthy and it is not going to be much more healthy or virile next year. I hope the contributions will continue. To date the home assistance has been paid by ratepayers, but we should satisfy ourselves that in respect of whatever additional amounts have to be paid we know that the ratepayers are in a position to pay the amount required. If not I revert to the point I made earlier regarding the caution we should exercise, that at least that which is available will be directed to those most worthy, and those who are most worthy will get it. The Parliamentary Secretary said that as of right they will get it and will be welcome to it by the rest of the community and that we will all resolve here, if we do nothing else, that if we want to remove the alleged stigma and lack of dignity which is attached to home assistance we should give the good example and stop using those words.

Fundamentally, this Bill is to replace the old Poor Law home assistance structure. It does not completely abolish the Acts which have gone before but it modernises, brings up to date or refurbishes the legislation that enables the Government to provide assistance at home level. It is an extraordinary fact that there has been virtually no modern thinking in relation to home assistance from this House. The last Act to deal with this was in 1939. There have been various amendments and additions but nothing of what one could call a proper, modern restructuring of the thought that goes behind public assistance and its practical applications.

This Bill can be described as one which gives people who are in circumstances of necessity, very often through no fault of their own, the right to assistance at the hands of the State. Prior to this it relied on discreation of those officers and local committees to decide whether a person was even entitled to assistance, not to talk about the amount. As the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out there have been grave disparities in the interpretation of that discretion at local level.

I suppose that variation in interpretation and exercise of the discretion has been due to various factors, including possibly the personnel that went to make up local committees, the individual characteristics of the various officers who applied the assistance code as we have known it to date. The Parliamentary Secretary has rightly paid a compliment to those who have applied home assistance and local assistance to date. That does not get away from the fact that there have been grave imbalances in interpretation of the circumstances that permitted the payment of home assistance.

Over the years a great deal of lip service has been paid to what should be done for those sections of our society that are not able to provide for themselves. There can be varying reasons why people cannot provide for themselves, but anybody who has been in public life, or has had anything to do with the administration of social welfare or assistance, or has had anything to do with committees engaged in charitable work, have been virtually horrified at the hardships which certain people have to contend with. Where there has been an altogether inadequate provision for these hardship cases, the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of Health and the local authorities, have done their best with the limited powers, facilities and finances at their disposal to deal with these cases.

How many of us in this House have gone into a shop on shopping day, seen a mother with her family going in to buy the essentials of life—food and clothes? How many times have we seen that type of poor person ordering the goods, having them prepared and then on going to her purse finding that the mite she had there was not sufficient to meet these essentials, with the result that she had to put back some of them. None of us need to be a social worker to have observed that fact. I doubt if there is any Deputy in this House who has not seen that situation occur. I doubt if there is any citizen who has not seen that situation occur.

Therefore, it is important that Members see what the Parliamentary Secretary is trying to get at. He is trying to give the God-given right these people have to have human dignity and the fundamental necessities of life. They have that right if all citizens are to be equal in the fundamental rights of citizens under our Constitution. I noted that the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the family unit. It is well for us to remember that the prime unit of our society is the family, and that is written into our Constitution. This Bill honours that, acknowledges it, and applies that principle in realistic terms. As Deputy Andrews said, one cannot look at this in a vague abstract way, one must look at it in terms of pounds, shillings and pence, the financial requirements that go in to give the minimal necessary relief.

There is not a Deputy who is not aware of the hardships that occur in any society, particularly in our own. We have had a history of foreign occupation which has not been conducive to easing the situation. There is a long backlog of Government indebtedness in relation to this type of relief, this type of scheme and this type of work. We will not see the completion of what is started in this Bill in our lifetime but it is a very necessary and essential step to put us on the right road.

I know, as others do, that there are a lot of people who are ashamed, if not afraid, to apply for home assistance. Deputy Tunney quite rightly used the word "stigma". I am afraid it has been there because of the old aura of the poor law, county home and all that went with it. I would describe it as back-handed charity, and that is all it was in real terms when it was examined. If it were not for societies like St. Vincent de Paul, our society could be held up for indictment on our failure in this sphere. It is only right that we should give acknowledgment and thanks to these charitable committees that have gone a long way to assisting in real terms the people who have suffered hardship. No doubt, the societies will continue to find a place. The fact that the State now acknowledges, in today's terms, its responsibilities in this sphere does not mean there will not be room for these societies to play their part. We are all grateful to them and we will continue to be grateful, because they have the wonderful facility of treating problems in human terms and in the individual terms and circumstances of the particular case. I suppose nearly every Deputy here has had some contact, either as a working member, subscribing member or something or other, with various charitable societies. It is not sufficient to put the money on the plate outside the church on Sunday or to subscribe when the collector comes to the door. All of us as citizens have a duty to provide, through the State, for the necessitous person. That duty goes further than a mere token or part payment by way of alleviation. It requires an overall community or State involvement. Society has always been complex, but as standards improve, the disparity between the haves and the have-nots becomes all the greater. In today's society it is no longer a matter for the individual citizen to say there are charitable organisations to deal with this, that and the other. We are involved and we are responsible as legislators in this House.

I should like to mention one aspect of this matter of assistance. It is difficult to put it in words and difficult for me to state it without misstating the situation. We have all heard of the hurler on the ditch, the critic. We have always heard and will continue to hear people saying: "I work hard, I pay my tax, but there is that publican down the road who is doing the State by getting assistance to which he is not entitled." If people believe that they are right in that criticism they should be able to go to the authority that dispenses the social assistance and say that such-and-such is not entitled to it.

Another thing I should like to point out is that a lot of the critics about the allocation of assistance speak without knowledge of the inner workings and the inner circumstances of a family that is getting assistance. They do not know because they are speaking from outside. Many of them are people who have never had to worry as to where their next article of clothing is going to come from, or whether the roof is going to stay over their heads; whether they are going to have sufficient food; whether that child is going to be fed properly. In the past we all saw the small paperboy around the city of Dublin collecting the coppers and giving the money in to the home. Those of us who worked in St. Vincent de Paul in Dublin know that money may not have gone to the right cause, but we do know there are a lot of small people who have had to go out to work under very difficult circumstances, in circumstances of bad weather as a result of which many of them broke down in health and suffered afterwards in life. They had to work because the State did not provide the necessary assistance to give their families the necessary wherewithal to provide a minimum degree of, may I call it, existence, not even comfort.

But to get back again to some of the hurlers on the ditch who think that things should be done a certain way, most of their statements are short-lived; they do not get support, they get a quiet rumble of support. They are never able to follow it up because they are not prepared to spend the time or give the attention to trying to solve the real social problem that underlies their so-called complaint.

A lot of these people who are so quick to criticise anything of an assistance or social welfare nature are the very people who are giving rise to the necessity for the social welfare measures. A lot of these people are not making their fair contribution to society. We all know of the people who can stuff a lot of their income into their hip pocket, make no return and not pay their due contribution to society. Many of these people are people who have a very high standard of living. I wonder how they manage to maintain it. These are the sort of currents that run across any situation or anybody advocating an improvement in social welfare benefits. For instance, there was a great deal of criticism in relation to pay-related benefit. This is very relevant to this Bill because, despite all its criticisms, the pay-related benefit and the extension of the period of time in the particular circumstances in which we now find ourselves, has had the direct or indirect effect of lessening the load of assistance that would otherwise be called to be paid by the local authority under the assistance scheme as heretofore existed. The future contribution from the local authority will be judged in relation to the amount of assistance that is disbursed this year. In effect, therefore, that Bill that dealt with pay-related benefit will greatly alleviate the load that might otherwise have been placed on the ratepayers' shoulders.

Deputy Tunney need not be concerned whether the ratepayer will be able to meet the small additional amounts that will be required under this Bill. The calculations that have been made by the Parliamentary Secretary and which appear in his opening statement are very accurate ones, as the Department have been extremely accurate in their calculations in the social welfare field to date.

Debate adjourned.
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