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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jul 1975

Vol. 283 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Capital Gains Tax, Bill, 1974: Fifth Stage.

I move: "That the Bill do now pass."

I would like to take this opportunity to observe that Dáil Éireann is now being asked to pass a taxation Bill of very great significance, perhaps the most significant taxation Bill the House has ever been asked to consider. It is one which, for the first time in our history, will be bringing capital gains within the taxation system. It will, as a consequence, confer a very significant improvement on the equity of the whole taxation system and will also prevent the kind of avoidance which results at present from persons investing in non-income producing assets which have very high expectations of capital gains and have in the past conferred very considerable capital gains which have been totally tax free.

As a consequence of the very substantial capital gains which have been made tax free, an immense sense of frustration and impatience has developed amongst the general body of taxpayers, the majority of whom are obliged to pay income tax because they receive their income in regular instalments. Such people have understandably found it difficult to understand why people of much greater means should have been able to make substantial profits without payment of tax at all. The capital gains tax cures that indefensible situation.

By passing capital gains taxation, by introducing capital gains tax in Ireland we are now in a position to join in the European Community as a society which has an equitable tax system. Until the Bill becomes law, when it is passed through Seanad Éireann, we alone among the nine member countries of the European Community will not have any capital gains tax. Surely it must be a matter for serious consideration on our part as to why we have failed to institute what many other countries found to be necessary as an essential part of their taxation system. Some of the capital gains taxes which exist in Europe have existed since the beginning of this century and it seems to me to have been a serious omission on our part that we did not move before now to introduce a system of capital gains taxation.

As we are introducing a capital gains taxation system we are also ensuring that Ireland will continue to have an advantage for investors over any other country on the Continent. The rate of capital gains tax which will be applied here, of 26 per cent, is less than the capital gains tax applicable in any of our European Economic Community neighbours. In several countries the rate of capital gains tax is equivalent to the income tax rate which, of course, can operate at rates much higher than the 26 per cent level applied here. The Government have chosen these rates and granted exemptions from thresholds and they are unique by comparison with our sister countries in the Community because of a desire to preserve here an edge of advantage for investors.

May I interrupt for a moment? In view of the fact that the Minister is now half-way through the time available, does he propose to leave any time for this side of the House on this Stage?

I will be happy to do so provided I am given half the remaining time to reply to what may be said. The Minister has a right to reply to the debate.

I thought so and I wondered why the Minister was called on and was speaking. Instead of replying, he is opening the debate on this Stage.

The Minister, too, is entitled to open the debate.

(Dublin Central): There is very little time left, ten minutes.

Not even ten minutes.

If the Opposition can assure me that I will be given adequate time to reply I will be only too happy in a few moments to terminate my remarks.

How does the Minister propose to get that between now and 10.15 and to allow adequate time to the Opposition to speak?

By splitting the difference.

The Minister gets half of the time plus half of the time— is that what he means?

I am simply setting the Bill in its proper context and I think it is relevant to consider it in its international context. Apart from the countries of the EEC most of the comparable countries in the world have capital gains taxes. Certainly every comparable country in the Northern Hemisphere has. The only exceptions I have found are Australia and New Zealand.

The Bill is exempting private homes, and that is also a unique exemption. The majority of wealth in our community is in fact represented by the private home, and the private home represents the majority of wealth. It represents a significant part of the capital holdings or savings of most people in our community but they are not being called upon to pay because of the Government's desire to encourage the family as an essential unit of our society. That exemption has been given in respect of the principal private residence. Very generous exemptions have also been given, which are again unique by any international standards, in respect of the family business or farm because of our conviction that the family income earning unit should be preserved and not broken up as it has so often been in the past by virtue of the operation of estate duties.

We have also provided that moveable assets of up to £2,000 in value are also exempt. So are wasting assets. We are not suggesting that is the beall, the beginning and the end-all of all capital taxation. We anticipate that, in the light of experience, there will be an opportunity to tailor and trim the system to Irish requirements.

Even if we were to draft a Bill perfect in all respects to meet the requirements of 1975, we would, in humility, be convinced, as we are convinced, that in the changing circumstances of modern society, which changes very rapidly, alterations in the law would be required. We are satisfied that the Bill was drafted with very great care. It was debated in very great detail, with care and sincerity by the House. It is a good Bill; it is bound to ensure that the gains which should be charged in our society will be charged and the gains that are made on modest holdings of property will not be called upon to pay.

Fundamental to our approach to capital gains tax in every section in the Bill is that liability to pay the tax will not arise unless and until there is a disposal. There will be no burden on people, as occurred under estate duties for instance, to——

May I inquire if the Minister proposes to take all of the time?

I will be very happy to divide.

Does the Minister know the time expires at 10.15?

May I tell the Minister now that what he is doing is in total breach of the spirit of the agreement entered into by this side of the House with his side and is a further reason why I am telling him now not to come looking for agreement from us in future? He will not get it.

The Deputy was unwilling to ensure——

The Minister had already taken half the time at that stage and he again wanted the other half.

(Interruptions.)

I wanted the Deputy to ensure me the right of reply. He did not do so.

On a point of order: may I ask why the Chair called on the Minister to move the Final Stage, a procedure which is not normally followed in this House? The normal procedure is, I submit, that the Chair says: "That the Bill do now pass." What happened tonight was that the Minister was called on to move "That the Bill do now pass." May I inquire why this departure from the normal procedure?

This is the procedure laid down; the Minister is called on to move "That the Bill do now pass."

I submit that is not the normal procedure.

The motion is "That the Bill do now pass" and the Minister has a right to propose that motion.

The Minister is trying to apply the guillotine to this one too.

(Dublin Central): On a point of order, the Minister is deliberately prohibiting Deputy Colley having a final reply on this Bill.

The fact of the matter is the Minister has brought in a Bill which will tax speculators and people who built up their business over the years in exactly the same way. We did our damndest to improve this Bill and we proved the advantage of detailed discussion of a Bill of this kind. We have improved it enormously even under the disadvantage of the guillotine the Minister is now trying to apply.

I said earlier that we introduced these measures. First of all, in an election we got a mandate to proceed with them. We published a White Paper. We published a Bill and we have now had seven months of debate on this measure.

On a point of order, I would like to point out that, after a great deal of consideration, we agreed that this Bill would conclude tonight. It is a shame that the Minister for Finance should now come in here to abuse the Opposition and to abuse the agreement that was made. On behalf of the Whips on this side, I want to say they will never get another agreement on those lines. The Minister has deliberately abused the agreement that was made. It is not good enough.

I would have been happy to give the Opposition an opportunity of speaking but they were not prepared——

(Interruptions.)

The Minister has taken half the time available.

They were not prepared to give an assurance that the Minister would have the right to reply. They were not prepared to give to the Government what they were demanding for themselves. That was an opportunity to hog the time. I would be only too happy to give them time as long as I got an assurance that I would have the right to reply.

(Interruptions.)

It is now 10.15 p.m. and, in accordance with the order of the Dáil of 2nd July, I am putting the question that the Bill do now pass.

(Dublin Central): It is a disgraceful performance by the Minister that Deputy Colley who was here for the past six weeks did not get one minute to reply to the Bill. I blame the Minister for Finance.

Deputy Colley would not give an assurance that the Minister would get in at all.

The Minister did not seek that assurance at the beginning. This is a childish performance.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 61.

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.

This Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9th July, 1975.

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