Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1975

Vol. 284 No. 3

Wealth Tax Bill, 1975: Report Stage.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 2, line 26, to delete "relation to such rights;" and to substitute: "relation to such rights; and such child shall be deemed to be the child of the adopter or adopters born to him or them in lawful wedlock and not to be the child of any other person;"

This amendment is an addition to the definition of "child" which I introduced on the Committee Stage. That definition omitted the final paragraph which occurred in the definition of "minor child" in the Bill as drafted which it superseded. That paragraph stated that the adopted child shall "be deemed to be the child of the adopter or adopters born to him or them in lawful wedlock and not to be the child of any other person." It was not considered necessary to keep this in the definition as amended as it was considered to be tautological. However, Deputy Colley raised, on the Committee Stage, a point that a similar paragraph occurs frequently in the Adoption Act, 1952, for example, in sections 27 and 28 and, accordingly, significance could be attached to that fact. I am prepared to take that point. It is an arguable point and rather than have any argument on it, it is better to have clarity. On that account, I propose this amendment to reinstate the paragraph and thus put the matter beyond any doubt.

I am glad the Minister has taken this point which, in my view, is more than an arguable point. It is a matter of considerable importance. I confess I was somewhat taken aback when I looked at the Adoption Acts and found that they were so drafted as to incorporate the wording now in the Minister's amendment in a number of sections, as the Minister said. The implication seems to be quite clear: the effects of the Adoption Acts, as generally understood, are applied to different circumstances only as the sections or subsequent enactments specify and not, as one might think, for all purposes. Therefore, it seems that, for the purposes of this Bill, the omission of these words could leave a very serious gap in the arrangements sought to be made. Therefore, I am glad this amendment is being made. The Minister will, of course, be aware that it will be necessary to make an amendment similar to this and similar to the one he has already made in the definition of child in another Bill. As I pointed out on an earlier stage, there was another gap which he has already filled and this amendment is filling the final gap, I hope. As I say, the same procedure will be necessary in regard to a similar amendment in another Bill. As far as this amendment is concerned, I welcome it because it is necessary in the light of the wording in the Adoption Acts.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, line 19, in the definition of "minor child" to delete "21" and substitute "18".

The object of this amendment is to provide that the date at which a child ceases to be a minor child will be 18 rather than 21, as stated in the Bill. We did advert to this before and my impression of what the Minister had to say in that regard was that, while he did not basically disagree with the case being made, he felt the implications of making the amendment were extremely wide and that it ought not to be done in this Bill but ought to be the subject of wider consideration and introduced in a wider context. In reply to some questions on the Committee Stage the Minister stated a view; it was no more than that, and I do not think anybody would attempt to hold him to anything but a view expressed. He said that if any one person had responsibility in this regard it would be the Minister for Justice. I can see the Minister's point of view but it seems to me, as I indicated briefly on the last occasion, that there is a grave danger that this matter will be everybody's responsibility and nobody's responsibility.

There is certainly no evidence to indicate that the Minister for Justice or any other Minister is at present working on the proposition that there ought to be a general change in the law changing the age of majority from 21 to 18. If no such work is going ahead then it simply will not happen, certainly not for many years. I am not satisfied that the inclusion of a provision such as this amendment would cause any undue difficulty or disruption. On the other hand, its inclusion would exert a certain amount of pressure in order to have the general change made that the Minister feels would be necessary.

On the general proposition of reducing the age of majority to 18, particularly in the context of this Bill, I do not think there can be any real dispute that the time has come when we ought to do just that, when we ought to recognise the age of majority in the ordinary accepted sense is now 18 and not 21. It is some years since we gave votes at the age of 18 and it is my belief that the law ought, in general, to provide for the age of majority now at 18. The development of our social structures and the development of young people indicate that the age of 21, which we have had for a very long time, is now out of date. I suggest that the age of 21 for majority is now an anachronism and ought to be changed. A start has to be made somewhere.

There is provision in the Bill to the effect that any wealth which belongs to or accrues to the benefit of a minor child is assessed against the father, is deemed to be part of the father's wealth, and the father is accountable in respect of it. He has to pay the wealth tax assessed in respect of that wealth, the wealth which belongs in fact to his minor child. I instanced on a previous occasion an example of what can happen. I confessed then, and I confess again, that it is not an example that will happen every day of the week, but it is an example of a situation which has occurred and almost certainly will occur again and it illustrates the change in our society, a change which, I believe, calls for the adoption of this amendment. If there is a young man of 19 who becomes what is commonly called "a pop star", and he earns a great deal of money he may well be, and frequently in the past has been, the son of a father who himself is a man of little or no wealth. Yet, under this Bill, in such cases the father is made to account for and pay wealth tax on this wealth which is deemed to be that of the father and not of the son. The example I have given is by no means one that will occur every day. On the other hand, it is not a far-fetched example. It has occurred and it will almost certainly occur again. That is only one example. There are others. That being the situation there is a strong case for recognising the reality of the situation and ensuring that in future 18 will be the age of majority.

I do not suggest for a moment that the acceptance of this amendment is sufficient. It does not go nearly far enough. I suggest the time has come when the overall change should be made. A start must be made somewhere, and there is no good reason for saying it cannot be made in this Bill. Consequently, I am urging the Minister to accept this amendment. Its acceptance will put pressure on to apply the overall principle right across the board. As far as I know, the Minister does not object to the principle involved and I do not think any great difficulty or damage could ensue from the acceptance of this amendment in order finally to get the machinery moving towards recognising the reality of what is happening around us which is, in general, that people aged 18, 19 and 20 are now in all reasonable interpretations of the word regarded as adult.

I support everything Deputy Colley has said but I would put the argument in a slightly different way. Deputy Colley has dealt with the matter from the practical aspect. By giving votes at 18 we have recognised that people are maturing earlier. A boy or girl of 18 is now completely independent and should be sui juris. That is an accurate way of putting it. Young people are maturing earlier, even physically. It is a natural consequence of the universality of modern literacy and education and particularly the dissemination of information that a person of 18 is in as good a position to have the information and to make a judgment as a person of 21 or 25 or even 30 or 40. We have been proceeding in a large part of our law to recognise this as a matter of social desirability. Indeed some people have not been a bit slow to make political capital out of it and to plead the cause of young people with perhaps not the purest of motives sometimes. If we accept that, then why make distinctions? Deputy Colley rightly stressed the practical and realistic reasons why a person of 18 should be recognised as a fully fledged citizen and not as a minor. I want to put the case from a legal point of view. We have enough administrative difficulty, we have enough frictional clogs in the administrative machine, without having one definition for a minor in one Act and another definition for a minor in another Act. In page 5 of this Bill we refer to:

the minor children, if any, of an individual

and on page 3 we have:

"minor child" means a child (including a stepchild) who has not attained the age of 21 years on the relevant valuation date and who has not married.

That is a traditional definition and I am sure it still persists in other enactments, but in other legislation we have put in the age 18 so that is no justification for bringing into a new Bill, dealing with a completely new area, a legacy from the past. From the point of view of legal simplicity and good administration in this Bill and in all new legislation the definition should be uniform. It is high time we made up our minds where young people are concerned, just as where women are concerned, what is our policy. We have plenty of talk aimed at getting the votes of the people concerned. We have talk about the rights of young people and the rights of women but when it comes to doing something we do not do it. This is a very good place to start doing it, to start cutting the cod and the cackle and making up our minds where we stand. If the Minister stands up and says a minor child should be a person up to the age of 21, well and good. He has a point. We can agree with it or not but we cannot have it both ways. Whether it is equal pay or parity for women or whether it is equality for young people we should not try to have it both ways.

I would strongly urge on the Minister, from the point of view of administrative uniformity and certainty of the law, that we make up our minds whether it is 18 or 21. If we are going back to 21 let us tell the whole world we are going back to 21 but then I would like to know why we passed certain other legislation. If we are satisfied that the giving of votes at 18 was a step in the right direction and if that is the policy of the House and the policy of the people let us follow that policy unswervingly and put 18 in this Bill.

Section 4 aggregates the taxable wealth of individuals and subsection 1 (b) includes minor children of an individual in that aggregation. A father, for instance, is answerable for the answerable wealth of all his minor children for the purposes of the Bill. As the Bill stands the wealth of every minor who has property of his own, who has assessable wealth chargeable under this Bill, will be aggregated to the father or the mother or the individual responsible. It is that person who will pay the wealth tax, if wealth tax has to be paid.

I anticipate that we will hear the argument which has been made so often before that it is only the rich who will have to pay, or only a few people will be affected. If that answer is to be used to evade the real point at issue, I will answer it at the end. I will not confuse my arguments by chasing up that alley now. From the legal point of view, taxable wealth will be aggregated to the father. As Deputy Colley perfectly rightly pointed out, the father will have to pay wealth tax.

It was not a far-fetched example to say that an individual who would not be liable for wealth tax could be very seriously caught by the wealth of a minor child, a child not sui juris.

Deputy Colley mentioned a pop star. That is not as far-fetched as it seems. From the days of Shirley Temple we have had child stars. If Shirley Temple and her parents had lived in this country there would have been a nice little windfall for the Revenue Commissioners. Not so very far away from this House the material for a situation like that developed within my time in the House. There have been successful minor children. Anybody in or out of the public service could be caught. It seems to me to be inequitable and wrong in principle that this liability should automatically attach.

I know there are difficulties, but one way of minimising them is to accept this amendment and reduce the level to 18 years. Deputy Colley has made the actual point in practice and in fact more cogently than I would be capable of making it, and I do not want to repeat what he said. Coming to the legal side of it, what are the consequences if this happens? The individual to whom this wealth is aggregated is assessable for the wealth of the minor child. Unless I am greatly mistaken the personal wealth of a minor child is in trust for his majority. This can certainly be arranged. In the case of a minor child who is in this position I imagine that will be done.

That means the actual wealth which is subject to tax is inaccessible to the individual unless other provisions in the Bill cover that, and perhaps they do. There are omnibus provisions in the Bill which may do this. Knowing the Revenue Commissioners and their good staff work, I will be surprised if they slipped up on that one. For the moment I am assuming that point is covered. Even if it is covered, is that the right way to do it? I do not think it is.

One of the ways of minimising this problem of covering it would be by reducing the age limit. The majority of cases of this sort involve child prodigies. They are unusual. The enterprising young person between 18 and 21 is not unusual. I have come across cases where the question of minority at the age of 20 years has caused certain little legal problems.

As in the first thing I mentioned, this is an inconsistency in the law. To meet the point about the wealth or property of a minor being virtually in trust in both cases by the later provisions of the Bill, if it is covered, is a legal and administrative complexity that should be invoked to the minimum. Unfairness can occur and the probability is that it will arise in the three years we are concerned with here. These arguments reinforce the first point I made about consistency about minority generally.

How much will the Revenue get out of this? The more I look at the complexities of this legislation, the more I begin to wonder what we will get out of this legislation by way of profit to the State. I am aware that the computer techniques will do much to solve the Revenue Commissioners' administrative problems but I can see a multiplication of machinery, forms, tests and administration that will have the double disadvantage of being so costly as to minimise the net profit to the Exchequer and, at the same time, to pose a serious strain on the Revenue Commissioners' organisation. I do not like it. By taking something out of the system we can minimise the load.

In relation to deaths occurring after 1st April, 1975, the estate duty branch has sent out a notice to solicitors about the inland revenue affidavits. This is an indication of the extra administration that will be involved, and the notice I have referred to is only an effort to obtain more information, resulting in more administration, and it follows the adoption of one of the Bills in this capital code. This is what will happen in every case and it cannot be helped where there are complications like this. I believe a similar document will be issued, following the adoption of this Bill, about whether people are under or over 18. Can we not get all this administration down to one age, 21 years? Will the Revenue Commissioners have to send out a document asking if people are under 21 because of the provisions in one Act and asking if people are over 18 because of another Act?

I make those points in ease of the Revenue Commissioners because we are giving them a terrible burden. Estate duty was a back-breaking burden. Before that duty was suspended the estate duty office was overloaded. Under section 13 there is an allowance of £2,500 for each minor child. We will be overloading the Revenue Commissioners if we have distinctions in age in relation to such allowances. In supporting Deputy Colley I put forward the argument for legal consistency, uniformity and the necessity for having a definite policy on which to base our law with regard to the date for determining majority. That is, so to speak, the legal and administrative counterpart of Deputy Colley's argument. Complexities and unfairness can arise in regard to a minor's property. Complexities can arise if an individual is accountable for tax in regard to property where it is not perfectly clear that he has full control and entitlement to that property. Even if that does not lead to legal blocks and legal cases it can lead to administrative difficulties of the sort I have mentioned. There is also the point of £2,500 of an allowance per child and when that sum is taken for the difference of the three years concerned and all the administrative costs tied up with it is it worth it? Will there be anything gained from it? Is the Minister sure he will not finish up with a net loss? For these reasons I urge the Minister to accept Deputy Colley's amendment.

The philosophy seems to be that we are only dealing with the rich. Leaving out the philosophy of envy I wonder how many rich people there are who will be caught in this. Although it is fair to apply the principle of taxation and equality I do not think any section of the community should be singled out for punitive treatment. In enforcing the principle of distributing wealth and getting equality a punitive element arises, and that should be minimised. Even making the plea that it is not desirable for the community, socially or otherwise, to foment class warfare or to exploit the philosophy of envy there is the question of inflation.

When the Minister started this code the record will show that he was optimistic about controlling inflation and about better times being around the corner, but the tune of the governmental orchestra has demonstrably changed in the presence of facts in the last few weeks.

This is a bit far removed from the amendment.

It is not. If the Minister wants to do what he did on every other occasion, make a tirade about taxing the rich and saying it was only the rich he was concerned with, I will not lay off my end. If the Minister is going to stick to his tune I will stick to my counterpoint. Wealth tax may come nearer everybody than we think. It would be a good idea to relieve the burdens, where this can reasonably be done, in the case of those of 18 years. They will not be the normal case but they are significant enough to be considered here. As a Parliament we should legislate for possibilities; that is what law is all about. A person of 18 years of age can be caught as easily as his parent in this case. All I am saying is that, in these arguments about the rich and so on, let us not forget the matter of inflation; inflation at a rate of 20 per cent will reach 100 per cent in five years. It is a serious matter.

The other answer I expected was that as there was such a small number of people concerned, why worry? In other words, there would be so few people practically concerned it really does not matter. My answer to that would be why not make the change in the interests of uniformity and taking the load off the administration?

Therefore, if one takes the more legal counterparts of the points made by Deputy Colley, let us have a definite policy as to what is the majority and act on that. Let us not impose an unnecessary burden on the individual, which could be an unfair one, in that there is a legal complication involved and, at the very best, one could say it is administratively complicated to do so. The other point is: is it worth it? Lastly, the Revenue Commissioners will not get very much out of it. I have made the point about the rich and the small number involved, in anticipation of arguments being advanced. Everything being added up, I cannot see why we cannot simply write 18 instead of 21. It is a very simple amendment, would improve the Bill and would be in line also with what is likely to happen in legislation in other spheres.

I do not know how much time we should devote to this amendment. There are a few points that have emerged as a result of what has been said by Deputies Colley and de Valera. Deputy Colley, quite rightly, pointed out an aspect of this that would occur to any of us going back a few years when there was discussion about the vote at 18. Generally speaking, all except the most conservative people felt that there should be a vote at 18 but it took some sort of political agreement in some area to make the change. There is something similar involved here. Most people would say that the idea behind giving majority status at age of 18 is desirable. One will not find many people opposing it. But changes in this area need political decision and somebody must take that decision at some stage.

Deputy de Valera drew attention to the last paragraph of section 13 which allows an amount of £2,500 for each minor child who has property to be excluded from the father's assessment. The fact that that exists may mean there is some significant taxable aspect of this matter of which none of us on this side of the House would have any knowledge. That may be so and perhaps the Minister would enlighten us on it.

Without going into too much detail, what is involved here is, quite simply, the difference between the ages of 18 and 21. Out of that one must consider a person between the ages of 18 and 21 who might be married. Under this Bill such a person falls out of the category of a minor and is excluded from the wealth of the parent. Therefore, it does not seem to me that there could be a very great number of people involved. The Minister should have information in that respect that would not be available to the Opposition.

Deputy Colley mentioned also the exceptional cases, and there can be exceptional cases, perhaps that of a pop star where the father might have to look for money to pay the tax from the son. But if there is to be a decision taken in this area, which is not of any material importance, the sooner that sort of decision about the majority being reduced to 18 is taken the better. Prior to its being done in relation to the vote, criticism was made of the fact that one could join the Army; in theory, at any rate, one could die for one's country from the age of 18 onwards but one was not regarded as a citizen.

Perhaps the Minister when replying would deal with those few practical points. I think most people on all sides of the House would feel that a person should become an adult at age 18. The arguments against it would need to be fairly substantial in respect of the short period involved between the ages of 18 and 21. I cannot foresee there being a large number of cases involved, but perhaps the Minister has more information on that aspect than we have.

(Dublin Central): I am not at all surprised that this section has been inserted in the Bill with regard to one reaching majority at 21 years of age. When I examine all of the taxation measures before us there is no forward or advanced thinking to be found in any section. In the 33 sections of this Wealth Tax Bill very few can be recommended to the House or to the country. Therefore, it does not surprise me to see written here that one must have attained the age of 21 years before reaching majority. We know perfectly well that a section such as this would have been accepted 20 years ago. But the Minister and parliamentary draftsmen must have their minds closed completely to the realities of life and of industry today.

The Minister is responsible.

(Dublin Central): I withdraw that comment; of course the Minister is responsible. We can observe the changes being made in industry today with regard to people undertaking managerial positions at a younger age. Throughout the world we can see people, politicians, attaining the highest posts in their countries at an age that would not have been conceived of 20 years ago. In some cases such people attain such posts perhaps 20 years younger than would have been contemplated a decade or two ago.

But the Minister, in this section, with regard to the age at which a person attains majority or reaches a responsible level adheres to the former age of 21, accepted generally 20 or 30 years ago. It is quite obvious that the Minister is not advancing in his thinking. It is not in keeping with European and modern thinking which is essential if we are to pull the country out of the economic mess it is in today. The same old type of legislation is enshrined in this section.

We had a referendum here giving people the right to vote at 18 years of age, and quite rightly so. The majority of people over 21 years of age, who were the only people at that time entitled to vote, voted to give people of 18 years this right. I believe there are people of 19 or 20 years of age who have attained the maturity and understanding of people of 45 or 50 years. We are depriving them of responsibility and this will have a detrimental effect on them. This section will apply to a confined section of the population.

The Minister sees fit to allow these young people to vote at a general election or at a local election, they are subject to income tax and can join the Army, but when it comes to taking property into their possession it is the Minister's view that they will not act responsibly when they have reached 19 or 20 years of age. Does the Minister sincerely believe that that is a fact, or is it that he does not feel like changing the whole legal structure? If we are to start enlightened legislation I believe this would be the best first step as far as Deputy Colley's amendment is concerned. The time will come, as sure as day follows night, when the age of the majority will be reduced to 18 years. The Minister knows that day will come.

What we are doing in the three Bills—the Capital Acquisitions Tax Bill, the Capital Gains Tax Bill and the Wealth Tax Bill—is inserting this section again where a person does not reach his majority until he is 21 years of age. What will happen when that age is reduced to 18? Every one of those Acts will have to be amended. Would it not be better if the Minister took the initiative? It would not be long before the Department of Justice would bring in the necessary measures to make it effective.

I cannot see why the Minister is hesitant about accepting Deputy Colley's amendment. It would certainly give new confidence to people in business and industry. There are young executives today of 19 and 20 years of age whose fathers would like to transfer to them substantial parts of their property. The Minister knows perfectly well that in all types of industry and in farming there are young boys and girls being trained to take executive posts. They can do that very effectively at 19 or 20 years of age. The best way to encourage them is to give them status and responsibility. We all have had experience of people in the past who held jobs without responsibility. People took the view that they were irresponsible but when responsibility was thrust upon them there was a change of attitude. That is the type of thinking which I would expect the Minister to bring into this Bill if we are to look to the Ireland of the future.

People between the ages of 18 and 21 are going to play an important role as regards restructuring and guiding the country to the prosperity which we hope to attain. Whether it will be in the near future or not is a difficult question but at least we hope to attain that objective. Evidently the Minister is under the impression that between the ages of 18 and 21 people cannot play a very positive role. The attitude is that they are not capable of taking responsibility and responsibility is withheld from those people until they are 21 years of age. Surely that is a negative approach. At the same time those people are expected to serve in the Army, to pay income tax and they have a right to vote in a Government to serve the country.

I can see every merit in Deputy Colley's amendment and I believe if it were accepted it would create a new image. At least we would be starting in the right direction. I am not sure how the Capital Acquisitions Tax Bill is going to work. Where there are thresholds of at least £150,000 in the Capital Acquisitions Tax Bill, will a father be prohibited from transferring to his son or daughter a substantial part of his property because he or she is under 21 years of age? Certainly there is no reason why the Minister should withhold this right from people of this age group. As I have already mentioned they are playing an important role today. What we should be doing is encouraging them and giving them responsibility.

That is the type of Ireland which I would envisage in the future. These will be the people who will charter Irish industry and agriculture in the future. We know of many young men in the past who were orphaned and who had to shoulder responsibility for younger brothers and sisters. I know several orphans who at 16 and 17 years of age had to carry the burden of running a farm and they made excellent farmers afterwards. They had that responsibility not at 21 or 18 years, but at 16 years of age. I have confidence in young men and women of 18 years, especially now when we are trying to expand industry and get new blood in. People who own property will be anxious to ensure that their sons will play an active role and the most effective way of doing that if you want the family to stay together is to give them some share of the property; otherwise they may seek their career in some other industry in another part of the world. They are entitled to a share and a transfer of the property held by their father and mother before the age of 21 years.

I think the Minister should accept this amendment. Certainly it will be a new type of legislation. It will help the Bill, which in my opinion is one of the most deplorable Bills that has come before the House but it will give some image of respectability. I would ask the Minister to give sympathetic consideration to Deputy Colley's amendment.

I have extensively dealt with this matter on both the Second and the Committee Stages of this Bill. Every argument that has been advanced has already been answered. It is regrettable that so much time has to be spent on this Stage advancing the same arguments that have been twice rebutted. I have spoken with greater conviction in favour of reducing the age of majority from 21 to 18 than any Deputy opposite and did it seven years ago in the Council of Europe. It does not need any exhortation from them to get me to advance this cause. But it has no relevance to a taxation Bill which has to accept the laws of the land as they stand.

I was asked specifically by Deputy Brugha on Committee Stage who had responsibility for it. I said it was the Government's responsibility but has to be moved by the Minister for Justice. It involves many questions affecting the law of property, contract and financial matters, the jurisdiction of the courts, the question of trusteeships, guardianships and so forth. It is not a matter that can be flippantly or casually dealt with in any taxation Bill which must follow the law of the land and cannot seek to change the social and economic laws of the country.

Because this is a taxation Bill. It is not a Bill to change the social and personal behaviour of people. It has never been used for that purpose. It would not be a taxation Bill if it sought to do that, except in so far as it may be necessary to make changes for the purpose of collection of tax. This is not one of these purposes. If a child is fortunate enough to be liable to wealth tax, this Bill provides that the Revenue Commissioners may collect the money from the guardian of that child, which is the sensible thing to do. The guardian has the right of recovery against the child. The stories about Shirley Temple having some reference to our wealth tax is utter unmitigated rubbish. Shirley Temple made her money long before she reached 18 years of age. Are we to provide that the age of majority ought to be the moment one is born? This is the kind of rubbish that has been advanced in the course of this discussion. I suggest that the Deputies opposite try to get some reality into their comments on the Wealth Tax Bill, at least at the Report Stage.

I want to remind the House that the Seanad complained because they had to wait so long for the Capital Gains Tax Bill. When they got it, there was an adult debate and we are already back with their recommendations. If the Dáil dealt with its business with the same relevance and speed, the legislation could be better——

(Dublin Central): There was some virtue in that Bill, there is none in this.

——and the debate might be of more value. In the general law of this country the age of majority is 21 years. People under that age enjoy considerable immunities. The Deputies who talk so flippantly about the restrictions which the law imposes upon them seem to overlook the fact that the law provides very specific and helpful immunities and protections for people if they are deemed by law to be minors. They enjoy a special position not merely in relation to the law of property but also in relation to the law of contract and in tort. Their domicile depends on their parents. A tax on capital must have regard to the law of the land. For that reason alone a minor child should be any child under the legal age of majority in the country. In this country that is 21 years of age. To provide otherwise would be to provide concepts in taxes which are in conflict with the general law of the country, and their operation would be impossible. The law in relation to income tax accepts the law of the land in relation to majority—21 years. Until that is altered, a change cannot be made in the wealth tax proposals.

I would like to point out that section 14, subsection (1) (b), subsection 2, and subsection (3) (b) provide that the tax in cases where children are liable to wealth tax can be collected from the children, their guardian, or the committee of that child if they have it and they have the opportunity of collecting the money from the child's wealth.

I respectfully suggest that this matter has been debated in considerable detail and the legal impossibility of accepting the amendment at this stage is quite clear I am sure to a lawyer like Deputy Colley. Deputies have complained that this Bill is intricate. It would be immensely more intricate and longer if we tried to change the laws of this land affecting minors in relation to wealth tax. We certainly could not use a Wealth Tax Bill for the purpose of changing the law in relation to minors and the age of majority.

(Dublin Central): Could I ask a question for a point of information?

Deputy Colley to conclude.

The Minister may say that he has answered all the points put forward before. Perhaps he has to his satisfaction but he certainly has not to my satisfaction. He has made a couple of sweeping statements which do not stand up. For instance, he said the age of 21 is accepted under the income tax code. Is the Minister telling us that a young man or woman aged 18 or 19 who is working in a factory and being subjected to PAYE on his or her earnings is, in fact having them assessed on the father, and the father's income tax assessed accordingly? That just does not happen. While it may be true that for certain purposes under the income tax code the age of 21 is accepted, in practical terms that is not happening. We are talking here about a new annual tax.

We are talking about settlements under the income tax code. The Deputy knows that income in such cases is——

Deputy Colley concluding.

The Minister is now talking about a very rare aspect of income tax. I am talking about it as it is known to the man and woman in the street. As it is known to them, there is no question of somebody under 21 years having their income assessed on the father and his income assessed accordingly.

The Minister also said that the parent could recover this from the minor child who was particularly wealthy. What the Minister did not advert to was, if the minor child has a reasonable amount of wealth and the father has a reasonable amount, and the two are put together, he may go over the threshold and have to pay where he otherwise would not. There is no way in which he can recover that from the minor child under the Bill. Some of the Minister's statements in regard to the general position relating to the age of 21 years versus the age of 18 years for majority, simply do not stand up.

To talk about the law of this country as though it totally accepts the position that the age of majority is 21 years and that there are no exceptions to it is simply not correct. We know about the amendment that was made in the Constitution and the consequent change in the law in regard to voting but the basic difficulty here is not what the Minister has said. It is simply that the whole approach in regard to this Bill and the other Bills the Minister has introduced is, as I said before, at the very least Victorian and the mentality probably goes back even further than that. That has been demonstrated on Labour amendments. Here is a very good example of it. It is simply not good enough for the Minister to say that the law of contract or various other laws provide the age of majority at 21. That is not the point and it is not true to say that one could not accept this amendment and administer the wealth tax. That simply is not true. It can be done but the Minister is just not prepared to do it. He went on to say that this should not be done here because it is a taxation measure and should not be used for the purpose of creating the law in regard to a general matter of social importance. What he should be doing is following in a taxation measure what is, in fact, the social position in the country and that is what he is failing to do.

We have urged him to do it. We have urged him to treat young people in a new measure, for which there is no precedent so he is not bound in that way, as having attained the age of majority at 18 years. The Minister has given all sorts of reasons, none of which is convincing, as to why he should not do that. He may have talked about this matter seven, eight, or more years ago at the Council of Europe, but the real test of the Minister's attitude is not what he says either at the Council of Europe or in this House but what he does. What he does is in this Bill and we are giving him an opportunity to change it and he has refused consistently to change it. He can be judged on what he does now in relation to this amendment which asks him to accept, for the purposes of this Bill, that a young person is an adult at 18 years. He is refusing to do that.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 64.

Tá.

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.

Níl.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin Central).
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 3, to delete lines 48 to 50, and in page 4, to delete lines 1 to 4.

Amendment No. 3, although it cannot be discussed with subsequent amendments, is part of a framework I am endeavouring to build into the Bill. The object is to ensure that a married woman would be treated as a separate individual and not as a chattel of the husband. I mentioned on the last amendment that the whole thinking that emerges in this Bill is, to say the very least, Victorian if not feudal. It is clearly demonstrated in the section which is here sought to be amended. I have consistently sought to establish on this Bill that we should endeavour to treat individuals equally and, in particular, that we should recognise the separate individual existence of the married woman. The Bill singularly fails to do that. As a result we have a situation in which there is—this is the only way one can interpret what is being done in the Bill—discrimination against a wife who is living with her husband, vis-à-vis either the single person or the separated spouse. We have that because of the way the thresholds are fixed and because of what is provided in section 4, which is sought to be amended. It provides that:

The property to which an individual is beneficially entitled in possession on a valuation date shall also include all the property to which—

(a) the wife of the individual, if she is living with him on the valuation date, and

(b) the minor children, if any, of the individual,

is or are beneficially entitled in possession on the valuation date;

The position is that if you have a situation where the husband has little or no wealth and the wife has considerable wealth, it is the husband who is assessed in respect of that wealth. For the purposes of this Bill it is treated as his wealth and he is liable both to account to the Revenue Commissioners for the wealth and to pay the tax thereon. There may have been some thought that there were practical difficulties of administration involved which necessitated this approach. I do not believe that is so. I have sought in this and in other amendments to which I have referred to demonstrate a way in which this problem can be approached that will not create any undue administrative difficulties. The time has come, particularly when we are dealing with new legislation and are not bound in this regard by previous legislation and the complications that could ensue over a long series of Acts of the Oireachtas and perhaps court decisions—we are not bound in that way in this legislation—when the question is do we now, in 1975, International Women's Year, decide in Dáil Éireann that we want to treat married women merely as chattels or appendages of their husbands, or do we want to give them the kind of independent recognition to which they are entitled as individuals, not merely as the wives of the taxpayers concerned which is what is sought to be done in the Bill?

It is desirable that we should approach the matter in the way I am suggesting here. It is possible to do so. It is inexcusable to produce a Bill in 1975 which incorporates all the worst features of Victorian and earlier than Victorian legislation in regard to the role of a married woman, to regard her solely as somebody who is to be lumped in with her husband for the purpose of wealth tax. That is not an unfair version of what is sought to be done in section 4.

The Minister has refused to agree to our proposals in this regard. We are giving him another chance hoping that, in the meantime, he has thought over the matter and will recognise that it is both desirable and possible to do what we are advocating particularly in this new legislation where the Minister is not bound, as he might be in regard to certain other codes of taxation, by considerable difficulties. There is no insuperable difficulty involved here in the wealth tax. What is required here is a decision in principle as to what the role of the married woman should be and the political will to implement that decision. That is what is required from the Minister. That is what is sought in this and in the other amendments to which I referred which form part of a framework designed to ensure that the married woman under the Wealth Tax Bill will be treated as an individual in her own right.

The reason I am coming in now is to reply to some queries posed by Deputy Colley to the Minister for Lands on Committee Stage. The Minister for Lands undertook to obtain information for Deputy Colley and I thought it might be of assistance if I gave it now.

The subsection treats a husband and wife as living with each other unless they are separated by a court order or by deed of separation or they are separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent. That is surely in accordance with the facts of life. Nobody can say that is unreasonable treatment. That is what marriage is all about, to live together.

It does not arise if you treat them separately as individuals.

The wealth of the husband and wife with minor children is aggregated to form one taxable unit in section 4. The question of separation arises in the case of certain discretionary trusts where the trust property is deemed to be the property of a member of the family. That is in section 5 (3).

The appropriate thresholds in section 13 are also affected by the fact of whether or not spouses are living together. Subsection (2) is therefore necessary to set out when, for the purpose of the Bill, a husband and wife are treated as living with each other. The subsection is a necessary part of the Bill and, on that account, I cannot agree to accept an amendment which seeks to delete it. I suppose the Deputy will say the amendment is a necessary corollary to the amendment he is proposing later in relation to aggregation of family wealth in section 4.

Yes, and another one in relation to the thresholds.

Yes. We can take up the matter when we have disposed of the amendment.

Deputy Colley asked the Minister for Lands for an explanation as to why the terms of the Wealth Tax Bill and the Income Tax Bill, 1967, were not on all fours in the matter of husband and wife living together. The relevant sections are section 1 (2) of the Wealth Tax Bill and section 196 of the Income Tax Act. Section 196 is divided into two areas. Under subsection (1) the married couple are treated for income tax purposes as living together unless (a) they are separated under a court order or deed of separation, or (b) they are in fact separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent. Under subsection (2) of that Act they are treated as separated when (a) one of them is and the other is not resident in the State in the same year of assessment, or (b) both are resident in the State and one of them is absent from the State in the year of assessment although, in fact, they are living together in the sense that they are not separated.

Subsection (2) of section 1 of the Wealth Tax Bill corresponds with subsection (1) of section 196, that is, a husband and wife are treated as living together unless they are separated by a court order or deed of separation, or they are, in fact, separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent. The material difference is that subsection (2) has not been included in the Wealth Tax Bill. In order for this subsection to apply for the purpose of income tax the husband and wife must be living together, yet one of them must be nonresident in or absent from the State throughout the year of assessment. They are, in fact, separated in a technical sense only.

In cases where the subsection applies, the husband and the wife are treated as separated, that is, as single persons. Income tax is concerned with income which accrues over a period of one year. Events which happened throughout the year have, therefore, a material effect on the year's income tax liability. Wealth tax, on the other hand, is concerned with wealth on a particular date, that is, the valuation date. The facts as at that date are examined and the liability arises accordingly. For example, if a married couple have separated a week before the valuation date they are treated as single persons on the valuation date, whereas for income tax purposes they are treated as living together for 51 weeks of the year. Likewise if two persons marry on the day after the valuation date their wealth is not regarded as one unit on the valuation date.

Where one of the parties to a marriage is absent from the State for a year or more in this context, it will generally be found that that person was earning a living outside the State during that time. In other words, his income arises in the area where he happens to be living. A person in the wealth tax bracket is unlikely to be taking his wealth with him if he spends a year outside the State. In other words, his capital is, by and large, unlikely to be affected by his own personal movements. The considerations which arise when considering income for income tax purposes over a period of a year are, therefore, quite different from those which are relevant where the wealth is on a particular date and where the wealth is being examined for wealth tax purposes as on that date.

The concept of subsection (2) of section 196 which relates to a continuing process is not, therefore, relevant in the context of a wealth tax. Furthermore, this subsection deals with the case of a person who is resident in the State, whereas the basis on which a person is liable to wealth tax is that of domicile and ordinary residence. In all these circumstances it is, therefore, considered that the principle of section 196 subsection (2) of the Income Tax Act, 1967, has no place in the context of wealth tax. For that reason it is not incorporated into the Wealth Tax Bill.

Is that the Minister's contribution on this amendment?

While I see the relevancy of the reference to section 196 of the income tax code, I am at a loss to see how the Minister is arguing on the amendment. In the case of the income tax code there might be a relevancy in the disparity of the two sections. I am glad to see Deputy Esmonde is present but he need not think I am going off on a tangent. I said the Bill was in pari materia with the other capital taxation measures but it was not in pari materia with the income tax code, and therefore, there was to be a question of interpretation. The Minister's explanation is, indeed, understandable but the only point I can glean from the Minister's argument—I concede it is possibly my own denseness—is that the omission of a subsection from section 196 might be construed as implying something into this Bill. The Minister gave reasons for the implication.

Unless the discussion is now to be enlarged into accepting without question that the Acts are intertwined, the relevancy of what the Minister has been saying escapes me. Being a taxation measure, A and B are the two provisions which rule in this case. For instance, if the Revenue Commissioners, or the other party, were to invoke the provisions of section 196 of the income tax code for the purposes of some case, the point would have to be argued. However, that is not the basis on which we are presenting this amendment.

Whatever the complications being compounded in the income tax and the capital code by the various provisions of these Acts, it remains that we have here the same type of anomaly we discussed on the previous amendment in principle. Here we are in certain other Acts, moving in one direction. For example, take the Family Act at present. All legislation is moving in a certain direction since the time of the Married Women's Property Act a long time ago. We base the Bill on the concept of the husband and wife being essentially a single person for the purposes of the law. Cynically, we are reaching the stage where, when it suits the State, particularly when it is a question of taxation or administrative procedure, husbands and wives will be integrated. In other cases, especially if there is any political popularity involved, we will nearly adopt the standards of Women's Lib. This is a contradiction in approach.

We are dealing with this amendment and this Bill. The fundamental question which arises is: if we have recognised that married women can hold, and are entitled to property in their own right, apart from their husbands and married status, why must we integrate husband and wife for the purpose of taxing that property? Why, when we recognise that, say a wife—it argues equally the other way for the other spouse; incidentally, a trend in modern legislation from the Succession Act onwards has been to recognise the two spouses equally— can have property in her own right, and property is defined in this Bill on the same page as the lines sought to be deleted by this amendment stand, should there be a differentiation in the taxation of that property? Why should a woman be in a different position from a man? That is, in practice, what it boils down to.

Even if equality of the spouses is granted, which has not been fully attained by any means, why should two people who are independently and individually qualified and competent to hold property be so connected that their property is pooled for the purpose of taxing it? Why should that be so? It is a simple question. I sympathise with the Minister and his advisers on this matter because of the historical and traditional situation which must be disentangled. I am not forgetting the directives in the Constituation either. Here we have a case where there is a clear-cut distinction even taking into account the relationship between husband and wife. Incidentally, if the Minister will pardon my saying it, I hope in the friendliest and most good-humoured terms, I was somewhat intrigued at what he inadvertently embarked upon, namely a definition of marriage. When he reads the record, he will probably see what I mean. Marriage is a little more than what the Minister is seeking, in legal and other terms, to define it as.

I left out the words "in wedlock". I think that is what the Deputy is adverting to.

Let me frankly admit, this is just a point to lighten the heaviness of this discussion, or rather to promote the atmosphere we should have in approaching this Bill, and against which I sin as much as anyone else.

To get back to the seriousness of this: granting what marriage is in its totality, granting the physical, social, moral, economic and all other aspects of the state of marriage for both spouses, granting the traditional approach, granting these accretions of thought and procedure that have grown around this institution over the years, we can still see clearly one thing—that, at this time, and let us take the Minister's favourite date, the 4th April, 1975, it is fact, recognised and practical, that a husband and a wife, as individuals regardless of their status and sex, are entitled to hold, own, dispose of and otherwise exercise full proprietary rights over property, and property as defined in this and its cognate Acts. If that is so, I repeat the question which arises: if there is such an independent holding of property why should that property be aggregated and the owners thereof considered to be, for the particular purpose in hand, conjoined in order to tax that property?

When one asks the question in that clear way, one sees immediately that one is up against what might be called a taxation device. It is a taxation device pure and simple. There is no principle to support it. There is no equity to support it, granted the premises I have postulated. It is here I see the relevance of what the Minister said about the Income Tax Acts. In short, where the Income Tax Acts were concerned, two factors came into play. The first, I rather suspect, was the traditional. I suspect that those who first thought of income tax and developed the code in its early and middle phases were thinking only in terms of the traditional concept of the wife being in the hand of her husband, to use the Roman expression; the wife, so to speak was under the tutelage of her husband and marriage reduced her into a subordinate position where her husband was concerned. I rather think that concept ruled and, therefore, most of the thinking would have been conditioned by that notwithstanding the fact that earlier provisions visualised women with property and so on; they were strong-minded women; there were even medieval, fuedal laws and so on that qualify the statement I make. Basically that thinking obtained.

The second aspect—and this was bound to influence development— was the possibilities of evasion, and complications encouraged that approach. Lastly, in the early stages, it was not usual for women, certainly from the point of view of earned income, to be in the income tax bracket.

That was in the past; that was the income tax code. It was income that was being taxed. It was arguable that income was pooled, in so far as two people were living together in the traditional set-up, where you had a man who was the so-called bread-earner, a woman who was the housewife and minder of the children, however the money came into the house, the income was both effectively and practically and could be in contemplation of law, pooled. The income tax approach was perfectly justified, apart from administrative convenience. Even that has changed.

I do not want to get away from the amendment. I could launch off too far on section 196 and the income tax code generally here. Suffice it to say, it is understandable but, even there, new thinking may be and is indeed desirable. If I may be permitted to say so on this amendment, the taxation of married women from the income tax point of view in relation to their status as single has anomalies. That is not what we are dealing with in this Bill. We are dealing with property. This property is defined and is separate. With all the precautions that are built into the Bill to keep it separate, in other cases and so on, there will be no difficulty in keeping it separate. The only thing that can be confused is the income deriving therefrom. Income deriving therefrom is a totally different thing. That is why I am letting the income tax code take care of itself, whether it is in pari materia. This is property which can be taken separately. Therefore, why should it not be assessed separately on a property tax? What is a capital tax? It is a property tax.

The Minister can play away. I suppose he is entitled to his political gimmicks. He can talk about abolishing death duties when he is only giving substantial reliefs and changing them. All right, that is politics but he calls it capital acquisition. Where property is transferred for a consideration and where profits are made he calls it capital gains. When he taxes property directly, he calls it a wealth tax. As I said, what is in a name? Changing a name does not change a fact. What we are dealing with in these three Bills is property. So fundamental is that point in all these Bills, and in this Bill in particular, that the actual definition has to be brought in. In this Bill property is defined as including interests and rights of any description. Real property and personal property are defined. If all the definitions are brought together and the common demoninator taken, we finish up with the one word "property".

If A and B can hold property, if it can be ascertained and is taxable and if A and B are independent, then the tax is independent. Why in the name of goodness should the property be aggregated just because A and B get married? Leaving out the income consideration that I have mentioned as far as the property is concerned, why should the property be aggregated? The only good reason I can advance is if you aggregate it you will bring it over the threshold; it is just another device to bring it over the threshold so that it can be caught. This is very apparent in a later section. It is one of the reasons why the £90,000 threshold is, to a certain extent, objectionable.

I admit that this is a preliminary amendment and I do not want to exhaust all the arguments. There will be other arguments to be made on the next amendment. This does not dispose of all that may be said on this point. I want to ask a question, which I will try to answer when it becomes substantive on the other amendment. If the property is held independent, with the owners having full proprietary rights, why should the mere fact of marriage bring the two properties together? That is as far as I will go on this amendment. There is a lot more to be said when we come to the substantive point of the other amendment.

There is a slight technical point on this amendment too. Here the Minister reverted back to section 196 of the Income Tax Act. The point I am going to make will not be very material if my point of in pari materia is admitted. If the Minister for Lands, deputising for the Minister for Finance, was right that the question of in pari materia does not stand up—my learned friend, Deputy Esmonde, seemed to argue in support of his Minister—this point may have relevance. If the Minister is going to invoke the income tax code to answer me, all I will say is, all right but then he is invoking in pari materia and must take the consequences elsewhere. If he is rejecting the principle of in pari materia, then he says they are, in fact, separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent.

What is separation in this case? These are simple questions that seem at first sight to be so elementary as not to be worth asking but Acts of Parliament, like everything else, have to assume common meaning. This is a new code. I am taking the Minister for Land's point of view, admitting that if you accept all the codes of in pari materia then, correspondingly, there is less substance in what I am going to say. If they are not in pari materia, then we have got to look and ask what does the word “separate” mean.

In case A that is clear enough, but in B they are separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent. Under the income tax code that is explained and qualified. Under this code, I think even the Minister's advisers would like to have something more definite than "likely to be permanent". What is "separation" for the purpose of this Bill? If it is not accepted that the income tax legislation in this code is in pari materia, and that this stands absolutely on its own, what exactly does “separation” mean and what does “likely to be permanent” mean?

The Minister has referred to a valuation date. The income tax code would want to be considered very carefully and perhaps the precedents will get one out of trouble if it is in pari materia. If it is not, this section nakedly says “on the valuation date unless on that date they are separated in such circumstances that the separation is likely to be permanent”. I will give a case under this Bill, far-fetched though it may be. Suppose that on the valuation date a husband and wife are separated by the physical fact that one or other of them is in a hospital with medical certification that that separation is likely to be permanent, whether it is in the form of a prognosis or a terminal disease or anything else you like to imagine with relation to matrimony or otherwise, that section on its own might create a problem in a case like that.

That is only one of the things I could think of in relation to it. Whether you accept this amendment or not, the relevance of the Minister's quoting of the income tax code raises a matter which I queried when the Minister for Lands was deputising for him on this very definition section which obviously has not been completely disposed of. I do not want to hold up the House by a long dissertation on that subject.

The questions I asked have been very simple. If two people hold property independently, why should they be aggregated for property taxation purposes? If this section stands on its own, as the Minister for Lands maintained vehemently at the beginning of the Committee Stage, ably backed by the senior counsel and learned Deputy behind him, and if that view is correct as against the one I propounded—we are both agreed on the strict construction of a taxation statute in favour of the taxpayer—then the desirability of adopting Deputy Colley's amendment to paragraph (b) is a live question.

(Dublin Central): I intend to be very brief on this section. We have been over some of this before. Deputy Colley's amendment is as valuable on the Report Stage as it was before. We firmly believe that a married woman should be treated equally. If the Government have not paid practical service, at least they have paid lip service to giving a married woman status. We have seen Bills introduced which gave them the right to retain their position in the public service. This was a step to give her the dignity and rights to which she is entitled. We agree with that policy. We are asking the Minister to go further. We brought in legislation along these lines over the past number of years.

Women today are looking for equality, and quite rightly so. They are entitled to it. When it comes to taxation, the Minister takes a different view. He is prepared to write into this Bill old Victorian-style legislation. There is no forward thinking in the Minister's mind with regard to the wealth tax as to how he should assess property. The Minister says it is all right to bring in legislation which will enable them to work in the public service after marriage, but when it comes to taxation the Minister is not modern and forward thinking.

Deputy Colley and Deputy de Valera outlined in detail our views on this matter. One would need legal training to understand the bulk of these taxation Bills; because of their complexity, they are very difficult for the average person to understand.

The Minister could have simplified this section by stating very plainly that every man and woman was treated equally, whether married or not. The Minister took 20 minutes to read out his script as to what constitutes where separation is taking place, if one is living out of the country and all that type of legal matter.

I did this as a courtesy to Deputy Colley.

(Dublin Central): I do not believe it should be there.

If the Opposition do not want me to answer the queries, I will not. When I try to be courteous I am abused. The Opposition are trying to have it both ways.

(Dublin Central): I did not mean it that way.

The Minister misunderstands. We are obliged to him for reading his script.

(Dublin Central): Of course we are. I am saying there would be no need to put him to that trouble if he had drafted his Bill properly and in a simple form the average man could understand. I appreciate the fact that the Minister gave us that explanation.

We are basically against the principle that a married woman should be discriminated against. That is exactly what this Bill is doing. A married woman born in Ireland and married to an Irishman is being discriminated against in this Wealth Tax Bill. A married woman born in America, and married to an American, owning property in Ireland, is not discriminated against. She is exempt. That is the type of equality the Minister is talking about in the 1975 tax legislation.

It is bad enough for a woman to be discriminated against by virtue of the fact that she is married and not given the full allowance in her own right but to make it worse, a foreigner owning shares in a company here can carry her individual rights and will not be asked for thresholds of £100,000. She will not be subject to any wealth tax. I object to that type of discrimination against any Irish person. The Minister could have avoided this and improved the Bill in some small way.

It is very difficult to do anything with this Bill. If we are to give any genuine recognition to the independence of a married woman, we should start in a Bill such as this. We saw in a previous amendment that the Minister is not prepared to move forward as regards giving a person the majority at 21 years of age. That is the type of thinking we have in the Wealth Tax Bill of 1975. We are supposed to be moving into a new era, with new thinking and forward ideas, but the Minister is going back to old, antiquated Acts, dating back to the 18th century.

It is a pity he was not forward thinking in the legislation to further the independence of married women. They can today retain their jobs in the public service and in various other occupations that up to now they were prohibited from doing. So it should be. Why that same recognition is not given in this Bill is something that I cannot understand. Why must the Minister victimise the married woman as against the unmarried woman where this exemption is concerned.

There is not a great deal of money involved. The whole Wealth Tax Bill will involve only a few million pounds and, if this amendment of Deputy Colley's is accepted, the amount involved will be infinitesimal in relation to the total revenue from wealth tax. This amendment would be a genuine gesture in the right direction, a direction we have been advocating on this side of the House with regard to the status and the rights of married women. The Minister seems to be adamant. We discussed this on the Committee Stage. It is a matter of vital importance and it is for that reason we are here on the Report Stage trying to impress on the Minister that he is failing in his duty in our opinion in not recognising the proper status of married women and giving them the same thresholds as he is giving to single people.

God knows, we know the trials and tribulations of married life today. We know the expenses of purchasing homes and various things like that. We know only too well the erosion of profitability in business. There is no justification for the Minister's attitude. The return on capital, as most people know, has been eroded during the past few years and these discriminatory thresholds cannot be justified.

I do not want to delay the House. We have put our points of view both in the Committee Stage and Report Stage. We have asked the Minister to accept this amendment and give that equality to which a married woman is entitled in this year, 1975, when there is, throughout the world, the tendency to have equality for women. We see it in the public services as regards equal pay. It will be an obligation, under EEC regulation, to have equal pay throughout the entire community in a very short length of time. Surely these regulations point the way. The Minister should ensure equality of status as adopted by other European countries. We should not wait for other European countries.

We should advance our own new ideas with regard to what should go into legislation such as this. Most legislation introduced here is a copy of the same kind of legislation introduced elsewhere. We saw that in the Capital Gains Tax Bill. It is very similar to the Bill in England. We should be introducing our own ideas. The Minister in discriminating against married women hopes to gain additional tax. This is a bad way of raising taxation. It is certainly not a very enlightened way. I would urge the Minister to accept Deputy Colley's amendment.

First of all, let me say that the Minister in speaking gave the thinking behind the wording of subsection (2) in relation to the income tax code. He may have been in doubtful order, but he was certainly doing so, I appreciate, as a courtesy in response to the query I put on the Committee Stage. I do not want there to be any doubt about that. The Minister took the opportunity however narrow it was, to give the explanation, and we appreciate that.

However, on the substance of the amendment itself, as far as I could see, the Minister gave only one argument and that was that to accept this amendment would be contrary to later provisions in the Bill. Of course, I have amendments down in regard to those later provisions which taken together, give a framework as to how this problem might be tackled—that is if the Minister recognises that there is a problem. The particular words sought to be deleted here are an attempt to define when a married couple are not, in law, living together and that is just one of the consequences of the complications that arise because of the approach in the Bill.

The alternative framework I am putting forward, of which this amendment is part, suggests that for the purpose of the wealth tax there are three kinds of individuals with different thresholds, widows or widowers, minor children and other individuals, whereas the Bill has none of these—widows, widowers and minor children—but has a married man living with his wife and then the separated couples with all sorts of complications arising and anomalies and injustices. All of these are arising in the teeth of what should be done and what the Minister must know should be done in this day and age in regard to the treatment of married women.

The basic question was raised by Deputy de Valera. If married women are legally entitled to own, hold and dispose of property, why should their property be aggregated with that of their husbands if they happen to be living with them, and not if they are not living with them or, if they happen to be single people, it is not aggregated? This is the basic question, and the Minister did not attempt to answer it. I can only assume, therefore, as this is not the first time that this matter has been raised, that the Minister believes the approach set out in this Bill, which involves a married woman, whatever property she has, being shoved into the background and having her property for the purpose of the Bill treated as if it belonged to her husband, and her husband being treated as being liable to account for it and to pay the tax on it, is correct socially or, alternatively, he may be unhappy about it but he thinks it cannot be done in any other way.

I have sought to demonstrate in this and the other amendments that it is possible to deal with this matter differently. The Minister was given an opportunity in dealing with this amendment, if he did not think that this was so, if he thought it was impracticable, of pointing out why, but he did not do any such thing. Neither did he attempt to defend the antiquated and unthinkable approach involved in this Bill, and in particular in the treatment of my amendment.

It is unfortunate that the Minister has not availed himself of the opportunity to introduce a reasonably modern approach in this legislation which is new and dealing with a new tax. It is also unfortunate, if the Minister thinks that should not be done, that he did not tell us why he thinks it should not be done, other than the purely technical argument that it would conflict with subsequent sections—sections to which I have tabled amendments. It is unfortunate, but that is the way it is. We can all assume, therefore, from the Minister's consistent refusal to make any change in this regard that he favours, and that when it comes to brass tacks those behind him favour, whatever lip-service they may pay to the rights of women, married or otherwise, an approach which produces the kind of situation I have mentioned where the married woman is regarded as a chattel of her husband and where she can only obtain equal treatment with the single woman if she is separated from her husband. That is not the approach we favour. That being so, I put down this amendment. It is regrettable, but it should be noted, that the attitude on the other side of the House is as it is.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72, Níl, 63.

Tá.

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.

Níl.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 4.

In page 4, line 19, to delete "1975" and substitute "1976".

This amendment is designed to provide in section 2 that, with effect on and from the 5th April, 1976, a wealth tax shall be charged, levied and paid. The Government issued a White Paper on Capital Taxation and on page 45 of that White Paper in paragraph 93 the following is stated:

The wealth of the taxpayer would be valued on, say the last day of the tax year, at present the 5th April.

Later on in the White Paper on page 60 the Government stated:

Annual Wealth Tax: The date of commencement will be 6th April, 1975.

I submit that the clear intention conveyed to readers of that White Paper, and there were many of them, was that the Government intended to commence the operation of the wealth tax on the 6th of April, 1975, and that the valuation date on the basis of which the wealth tax would be collected in the first year was likely to be the last day of the tax year, that is clearly the 5th of April, 1976. If it was to be an annual tax and to be levied on the basis of wealth held on one particular day in the year, and the indication was that that one particular day was likely to be the 5th of April, and that the tax was to commence on the 6th of April, 1975, then clearly what was intended to be conveyed was precisely what is in my amendment. That is that the first valuation date, the first date on which property would be valued and tax would be levied would be the 5th of April, 1976, and that is what this amendment seeks to do.

It might be said, that having got as far as we have with it, there is not a great deal of point in changing horses now. I suggest there is a great deal of point in it. I would also suggest that it is important to realise just what the Government said in the White Paper and what they are doing now, why we had a guillotine motion, why we have had long sittings in regard to the wealth tax, with all the consequent strain placed on everybody concerned, including the staff of this House. It has all been happening because the Government have attempted to introduce the wealth tax one year ahead of the date they said they would introduce it in the White Paper. Everybody should understand that very clearly.

The problems which have arisen, and are continuing to arise, for potential taxpayers, their advisers and the Revenue Commissioners are quite substantial. They are problems which required to be and would best be dealt with by giving people an opportunity to consider the implications of what is happening.

Debate adjourned.

Could I ask your permission to raise on the Adjournment of the House tonight the matter of the passing on to the farming community the results of revision of the green £ valuation.

I will communicate with Deputy Gibbons on the matter. In accordance with the agreement arrived at this morning the sitting is now being suspended for one hour.

Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Top
Share