Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Jul 1975

Vol. 284 No. 4

Turf Development Bill, 1975: Committee and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Barrett

As we on this side said on Second Stage, we look forward to Bord na Móna carrying out development on a planned scale with particular emphasis on the working lives of their projected 6,000 to 8,000 employees. As well as cutting and saving turf, we should like to be assured that An Foras Talúntais will continue their experimental work on cutaway bogs. This should be very carefully looked into because of the success which we understand has been achieved with regard to the growing of vegetables and other plants. Up to recent years cutaway bogs were deemed to be utterly worthless from this point of view.

As we continue to cut and save turf there will be far more cutaway bogs. From the experiments that have taken place I understand that turf should not be cut down to the mud or the stone, that at least two sods should be left and that this makes for more successful growing of vegetables and other plants. I understand as well that there is a very ready market in English cities for the other plants that can be grown on cutaway bogs. As we need more and more turf to meet the gap in our energy requirements, more and more cutaway bog will become available, and I appeal to the Minister to use his good offices with Bord na Móna to see that at least two sods are left at the bottom of these bogs.

Mr. Hussey

We have a large acreage of virgin bog yet untouched, and it becomes more and more important to utilise these in view of the present price of oil and of the Government's difficulty in getting supplies of oil. We saw what happened last year when trouble developed in the Middle East and when oil became much dearer. It is important that we provide against such a development recurring, and the way to achieve this is to utilise virgin bogs to the full. To do this it will become necessary to provide access roads into these bogs. Neither the Department of Local Government nor the Board of Works appears to think that the provision of such access is their responsibility, so I avail of this opportunity to ask the Minister for Transport and Power to look into it. I am thinking particularly of an underdeveloped bog near Woodford which in a few years will be able to absorb those who will be unemployed when Tynagh Mines are exhausted. The bog near Woodford would give the alternative employment needed in that area.

Mr. McLaughlin

I would draw the Minister's attention to the smaller bogs in some counties which do not lend themselves to development by big, modern machinery. For instance, in my constituency last year lighter type machinery had to be brought all the way from Kerry at great expense to local people. I suggest to the Minister that Bord na Móna should equip themselves with lighter machinery so that these bogs, of great value to local people, can be developed properly. When I was a young lad in Roscommon people did not mind working from early morning to late at night to provide themselves with fuel from the bogs, but those days have gone, and where bogs are small heavy machinery is useless. It would not cost very much to provide sufficient small machinery to go into these less extensive bogs, which can provide a surprising amount of fuel for the homes of our people. Because of the high cost of fuel and the increasing cost of transport, turf production is very valuable, and I would impress upon the Minister the need to provide smaller machinery for use on the smaller bogs.

I must congratulate Bord na Móna on the wonderful job they are doing and on the amount of employment they are providing. Every day one sees trucks fully loaded with turf, and that is something that we must feel proud of. Turf is a great national asset.

Mr. Gallagher

I should like to congratulate Bord na Móna on the great work being done, not alone in opening up bogs but in providing a network of viable communities. In addition, Bord na Móna are making a large contribution to the generation of power.

I am glad the Minister proposes to expand the activity of Bord na Móna. However, I must express disappointment that the Minister and Bord na Móna do not seem to think it is feasible to have any expansion carried out at Bellacorick. My information is that the station lends itself to expansion and that it would be possible to have many more people employed there if the necessary preliminary work were carried out. The area could be described as consisting entirely of bog. There is no excuse for not including it in the Minister's development programme. This is an area where the Regional Fund could be used to expand development, thus providing further employment.

One of the problems in the west is that in many cases the industries established there are industries which employ females. It is not very easy to get an industry to come there which would provide male employment. Here you would have an opportunity of providing male employment, thus helping to maintain a social balance. If the young men are not around, the women, even if they have jobs, will not remain. It is necessary in any planning that is done to have regard to the social balance.

The experiments carried out by Min-Fhéir Teoranta have proved that it is possible to take grass from bogs. This also would provide a means of employment in the area. Experiments have been caried out in Glenamoy by An Foras Talúntais. The information obtained as a result of these experiments could be used, as has been suggested by other speakers, in the development of cutaway bog.

We were told in the past that trees would not grow on cutaway bog, that afforestation was not feasible in such areas. Now there seems to be a change of attitude, and a good deal of afforestation has been carried out in these areas. The experts could be proved wrong again in relation to the amount of bog available in this area. I would suggest that the question of the development of the Bellacorick area should be reconsidered.

I must express disappointment at the attitude of Roinn na Gaeltachta and the Department of Local Government in that at a time when it is vitally important that our own resources should be used to the fullest possible extent, they have not combined with the Department of Transport and Power in making funds available so that individuals could make the greatest possible use of bogs. It is regrettable that local improvement schemes are not adequate and that Roinn na Gaeltachta have made very little funds available for bog development. There should be greater co-operation on the part of these Departments with the Department of Transport and Power in order to ensure the maximum use of turf. We have gone away from the situation where the turf stack was replaced by an oil tank. Oil supplies are now so expensive that people have reverted to the use of turf. This will help the economy and will help the balance of payments position. Even at this late stage the Minister might get his colleagues in Roinn na Gaeltachta and the Department of Local Government to reconsider this matter in the hope that when plans are being prepared for next year a great deal more money will be made available for the development of bog roads in order to help turf production at local level. I realise that Bord na Móna are concerned with the larger development, that is, to keep generating stations working. There should be a concentrated effort to ensure maximum use of our own resources.

I should like to compliment Bord na Móna again. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the question of providing for expansion at Bellacorick. In the Bangor area Bord na Móna have an expanse of bog which at one time was used for ordinary cutting and where a good deal of seasonal employment was made available. I would ask the Minister to have a look at this situation also with a view to having the bogs there reopened.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. P. Barry)

I take up the point about Bellacorick which was made by Deputy Gallagher. A number of Deputies from the area have come to me and I have asked Bord na Móna to look at the situation. On two occasions in the last 12 months they have looked at it and they have said that at the moment it would not be economic to develop the bogs in the area. I must be guided by them. They are the experts in this matter. Of course, ironically, the reason why this Bill is before us and what makes it possible for this expansion in Bord na Móna activities is because the price of oil is so high. For many years we enjoyed the benefits here of very cheap oil with the result that the cost of generating electricity from imported oil was very much cheaper than the cost of generating it from peat or turf. Since the price of oil quadrupled in the last 18 months the price of generating electricity from turf is now cheaper and allows Bord na Móna to expand their activities to provide more peat for the generation of electricity. The prime use to which the extra bog area will be put is the generation of electricity.

An acreage of 130,000 acres was developed by Bord na Móna up until recently. This Bill allows them to develop a further 40,000 acres. There has been some confusion in the House and outside about this. It is not to cut the existing bog acreage to a deeper depth that the turf development programme is envisaged but to expand the amount of bog used. The point raised by Deputy Barrett about cutting bogs to a level which will allow further development afterwards is very much in the forefront of the minds of Bord na Móna. They are very conscious of (a) the work that will be available for their existing work force after the bogs are finished with and, (b), whatever other use the cut-away bogs can be put to when they are finished, from the point of view of turf production.

An Foras Talúntais will continue their developments. Some of the bogs are ready now and have been developed by Bord na Móna in conjunction with An Foras Talúntais for, as Deputy Barrett mentioned, the growing of little shrubs, on which Bord na Móna have built up a very profitable export trade. This could be extended. There are also experiments on the growing of grass and rearing cattle on part of the cutaway bogs. The snag at the moment is that it is not possible to do this on large tracts of bogs. The bogs which are ready for such experimentation are generally sited inside huge tracts of bogland being cut. Therefore, access to them and their division and allocation to other people would not be possible.

I discussed the matter very recently with Bord na Móna. They tell me that the experiments, the discussions and the debate on the future use of bogs can go ahead up to another ten years before firm decisions are arrived at and before it is necessary to come to any further decision about their use. I hope, during the ten years the discussions are to go on, that I will be keeping an eye on the matter. I will certainly watch very carefully the work that is being done, because there are a number of possibilities. There is the point of view of whether the whole thing should be taken over by the Department of Lands or the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, when the bogs are ready for use, and divided up among farmers. There is also the possibility of whether Bord na Móna should change their emphasis by some future Minister introducing another amendment to the Act, allowing other things to be done besides the development of bogs which would continue to give employment to their work force. An imminent decision is not necessary for up to another ten years.

I was interested in the point raised by Deputy Gallagher that at one time they were told that trees could not be grown on bogs but that now this has changed. A point we all have to bear in mind is that yesterday's laws do not apply today, that we must keep on looking at things and revising our assessment of what is possible or what is even desirable. Perhaps in five years' time, because of improved technology in the meantime, something which does not seem possible now may be possible then. We must keep an open mind and, when the times comes, make the decision, see that sufficient research is done into the matter in the meantime to make sure that the decision then made is the right one.

Some Deputy mentioned—I think it was Deputy McLaughlin—smaller types of machinery in bogs. The machinery used by the co-operatives at the moment is hired out by the sugar company, not by Bord na Móna. I am not sure if the machinery used is the minimum size to make it economical to supply. I will bring the point made to the attention of the sugar company and ask them if anything further can be done in that regard.

Mr. McDonald

Have the Minister's Department or Bord na Móna given any serious consideration to the question of leasing bogland from farmers rather than the present system of buying it at 1944 prices? We should have by now a clear policy statement on this. An Foras Talúntais and Bord na Móna have clearly shown that cutaway bogland can be reclaimed, and the returns from the experimental plots at Lullymore, in relation to beet and vegetables, clearly show that there is a very high level of production. In the national interest we must think of putting back the 5,000 or 6,000 acres of cutaway bogland into production.

I do not believe we should opt for a system of State farming because the mentality here is not suited to it. The only real example of this type of development we have had over the last 50 years is in Russia where, if we are to take the harvest into account, it clearly shows that that system of State farming has failed. I hope that Bord na Móna, with the help of the Minister, will define a clear policy statement on what will be the outcome of this land. It is quite obvious that the cutaway bogs which Bord na Móna are acquiring, either by agreement or compulsory acquisition over the last few years for sums of between £3 to £40 per acre, are worth up to £400 and more an acre once they are reclaimed. I am in favour of Bord na Móna leasing the land for a definite or indefinite number of years from farmers. They could easily afford to pay the very same price for the leasing period as they are at present paying in compensation. We would not then have the problem of deciding what will be done with the land when the board no longer have any use for it.

I compliment Bord na Móna and An Foras Talúntais for the excellent work they have done in this regard. The experiments made show that we have in the reclaimed land a byproduct which was not visualised when the board was set up. I want to compliment the administration and the management of Bord na Móna for the excellent progress they have made in the development of so many bogs, especially in my constituency of Leix-Offaly, and for the very worthwhile employment they are giving.

I do not believe Bord na Móna mind who takes on work, but I understand that quite a number of people who are on vacation from full-time employment take on temporary work with the board. I know this is a good physical activity, but, with over 100,000 people unemployed, people in full-time employment should not be given such holiday employment. I am not talking about the many students who get a wonderful opportunity during the summer months of working for Bord na Móna. They derive financial benefit from this but it is also a very good physical exercise for them. It gives them a great opportunity of working on the bogs, instead of working abroad. This is a benefit to their development. Nevertheless there are a number of people who, while on holidays from full-time jobs do summer work which could provide employment for others who need it more.

Mr. Barrett

To what extent have the experiments in cutaway bogs been carried out? What acreage was involved? These experiments have been an acknowledged success and an export market is developing, particularly in small shrubs, plants and vegetables to some degree. Unlike Deputy McDonald, in my opinion the board are the people best equipped to carry out this development in the immediate future. They will provide more employment for people with a farming background. To what extent are they planning to develop this?

The Minister said that the development of the bogs would be somewhat restricted because of the surrounding areas yet to be cut. In the thousands of acres in the midland areas which are already cut away, I can visualise the growing of vegetables and plants being intensified. That would give a great deal of employment because a high ratio of employees would be needed. Maybe in the future land could be leased to private individuals for development, but to get the maximum benefit from the bogs, particularly at the present time when there is a need to create jobs, the board should go full steam ahead with this development.

I do not think it is envisaged that the sugar company should provide the machines for bog development. In my constituency a co-operative was formed and they acquired one or two small turf-cutting machines but the sugar company was not involved. More assistance by way of grants for the purchase of these machines could be given to these groups. In the co-operative I mentioned, a great deal of turf has been cut and stacked near the power station at Milltown Malbay. Many of these co-operatives are being set up in counties, mainly the western counties, and they should be encouraged by means of grants for the purchase of machines for the development of privately owned bogs.

What has happened in the discussions on energy at EEC level? How much has bog or turf been discussed? I read some EEC reports lately and noticed that coal was discussed at great length and coke to some extent. I did not notice any mention of turf. I presume we are the only country of the Nine producing turf. It would be interesting to know what discussions, if any, have taken place within the EEC on this subject. This would enable us to find out if we can benefit further from our membership. Even though other members would not be involved, it would be in the interests of the Community to help us produce cheaper energy. Perhaps the Minister might enlighten us on this?

Mr. Hussey

Would the Minister take up this question of access roads with his colleague?

Mr. P. Barry

I forgot in my reply to refer to this.

Mr. Hussey

This is very important but seems to be sidestepped all the time, both by the Department of Local Government and the Department of Transport and Power. The grants available under the local improvements scheme are not adequate. Particularly in the area I represent, there are large tracts of virgin bog available for cutting by local farmers. There is no problem getting a machine to cut these bogs. Often a machine can gain access to these bogs where a person could not wheel an empty wheelbarrow. It is wonderful to see where these machines can go.

It is unfortunate that the people cannot use these bogs to the fullest extent because they cannot bring in their tractors, or even a donkey and cart, to take out the turf. As a result, they have to leave the turf there. This year they succeeded in getting a considerable amount of turf cut because the summer was so dry, and they were able to wheel out the turf. In my view, the Department of Transport and Power should assume responsibility for this job and ensure that access roads are made available.

Drainage is also very important. In the last two years I have seen bogs developed which were cut by machines but unless they are drained the people will continue to cut the top off them leaving the best turf after them. The responsible Department will have to carry out a major drainage scheme in those bogs and ensure that the surplus water is taken away.

Deputy Barrett mentioned cutaway bogs. A report on my area was issued some years ago which showed that if the amount of bogs were cut, it would yield a pool of 75,000 acres of land. This would be a great contribution in an area where the people depend solely on the land for their livelihood. This very important matter should be looked into.

Mr. Gallagher

Has the Minister or Bord na Móna any method where they take an option on a bog in a particular area? My reason for asking this is because at the moment in an area not too far from the development at Ballincorrig there seems to be a tendency for speculators to buy large tracts of bog. This may be a problem for the Department of Lands as well as the Department of Transport and Power. As far as these people are concerned this is an investment and they have no intention of carrying out any development. They are buying bogs cheaply. They offer a farmer £1,000 and he considers he is doing very well in disposing of his bog. The buyer is not a farmer. He is a speculator. He is buying the bog as an investment, sitting on it in the hope that its value will increase and he will gain a nice dividend when he disposes of it.

Is there any question of water and air pollution as a result of work carried out on bogs? I think Deputy Callanan and some other Member referred to this. In carrying out experiments do Bord na Móna ensure against pollution of both water and air?

Mr. P. Barry

How could there be air pollution?

Mr. Gallagher

In dry weather a great deal of dust is generated on bogs. Have Bord na Móna any plan to prevent this type of pollution?

Mr. Enright

This is a highly important Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on section 1, the definition section.

Mr. Enright

One of the most important developments in regard to Bord na Móna is decentralisation of their headquarters. The headquarters should be sited in the midlands, in Laois or Offaly, where the bulk of the products they handle are situated. Such decentralisation would lead to greater convenience and to economy, to say nothing of better management. The Minister may think I am being parochial. I am not. This is a move that should be made instead of having personnel and employees travelling up to Dublin for the purposes of discussions. All the briquette factories are sited in Laois-Offaly, Shannonbridge, Portar-lington, Rhode, Ferbane and so on. Decentralisation would result in better economy. It would be more practical. I understand yet another briquette factory is planned for somewhere in the south. The headquarters of Bord na Móna should be sited in either Tullamore or Portlaoise. The Minister should discuss this with the board with a view to an early decision.

Tribute must be paid to those responsible for moss peat development. Export sales reached a figure of £2,798,763 showing an increase of 23 per cent over the previous year. There was a 10 per cent increase in 1973-74. This is a very important export. There are markets in Britain, in the Channel Islands and elsewhere. I hope we see continued expansion in this field. There is a tremendous potential.

I wonder have we been investing enough capital in Bord na Móna in recent years. From the point of view of national security it is vitally essential that Bord na Móna should expand. I think this is the eighth year now in which no provision has been made for capital investment. If turf development is to continue the board must be given sufficient capital to develop. I doubt if this Bill would be before us today were it not for the oil crisis some years ago. There is no doubt that the ESB has become too heavily dependent on oil, and the generation of electricity from turf is most important. It is heartening to know that an extra 40,000 acres of bog will be developed. In regard to turf development——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will remember that this Bill has a time limit of one hour. He is very wide of the section indeed.

Mr. Enright

I will conclude in a few moments. In regard to the price of bogland it was mentioned in this House on Thursday last that a sum of £1 was known to be paid by Bord na Móna for an acre of bogland. I can vouch for that. When a bog has been developed a very important question arises. All of us in this House will have to reach a decision in the not too distant future as to what is to happen to bogland when it has been cut away.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is completely wide of the section. This is only a definition section.

Mr. Enright

After bogland has been developed what is to be done with it? It is very useful land. Can the Minister tell me whether any definite decision has been reached as to the eventual use of cutaway bog? I know Bord na Móna have gone into many different lines and carried out many experiments, and this is to be welcomed.

Mr. Staunton

Perhaps the Chair would advise me as to the time limit on this Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is one hour from the time it began. The Bill concludes at 1.30.

Mr. Staunton

In that case I defer to the Minister.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. P. Barry)

Deputy McDonald spoke about Bord na Móna leasing bogs rather than buying them. Bord na Móna say it would be wholly impracticable to do this and that the simplest way to carry on the operation is to acquire the fee simple of the bog and thereby have full control of the total bog area.

As regards access roads the scheme administered by the Department of Local Government calls for the co-operation of the local authorities. The latter undertake the repair of roads and receive grants from the Department of Local Government. This is more practical than, as was originally done, the Department of Transport and Power making their own grants available for the repairing of roads. The only way the Department of Transport and Power are involved is in four specific instances in four specific counties of roads leading to power stations, that is, in Kerry, in Donegal, in Clare and in Galway. There are four small power stations there and my Department make a grant available for the repair of these roads through the local authorities. They are not concerned with the ordinary development of other roads within country council areas.

Deputy Barrett spoke about the attitude towards peat in the EEC. At our request the Commission have agreed to include turf in their energy strategy proposals for the period ahead on an equal footing with coal. If any facilities are being given to coal or if any grants are made available for the development of coal we will be pushing to see that the same grants and facilities are accorded to turf. It has an equal standing in the EEC.

Deputy Enright spoke about the removal of the headquarters of Bord na Móna from Dublin. This has been looked at a few times, but the number of staff employed by Bord na Móna in Dublin, relative to their total operation, is very small and, of course, they will have to maintain a presence in Dublin because they have to do various things here in liaison with various Departments—my Department, the Department of Finance, the Department of the Public Service and so on. Therefore they would be maintaining staff here anyway and it is thought that the most practical thing to do is to retain this very small headquarters staff here.

Deputy Barrett also asked what progress had been made in regard to cutaway bogs and what the position now is. In the last year a further 240 acres of grassland have been developed bringing the total developed area to approximately 700 acres. Deputy Enright spoke of it, and many other Deputies are conscious of what Bord na Móna have been doing in this regard. The 700 acres, taken in the context of 140,000 which they are developing, is a very small amount of development. I do not think Deputy Enright was present when I said that no final decision has been taken yet and I am advised by Bord na Móna that it will be a number of years before the necessity for a final decision will arise. In the meantime the discussion, argument and debate should go on as to what is the best use to be made of these cutaway bogs.

The 700 acres are spread over Cluain Sosta, Loilgheach Mór, Doire Dhraighneach and Abhainn Rinne. A new feed lot with a capacity of 200 cattle was constructed at Doire Draighneach, County Offaly, and extensions to the cattle feed lot at Cluain Sosta, County Offaly, and the sheep feed lot at Abhainn Rinne, County Mayo, were completed. From the feed lot at Cluain Sosta 240 beef cattle were produced for slaughter giving a satisfactory performance from both grazing and silage feeding operations. The sheep flock at Abhainn Rinne, County Mayo, was extended to 750 breeding ewes supported by 200 acres of cutaway pasture. Seventy calves were produced by the 80 cow breeding herd at Loilgheach Mór and a second breeding herd of 120 cows was established at Doire Draighneach.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Barrett

It is vital that any money that is being made available to Bord na Móna should come from within the sterling area because of the difference that will keep recurring as the pound drops and this having to be made good. We should insist that money is got from within the sterling area because of the falling value of the pound and Central Bank guarantees.

Mr. P. Barry

I would agree that if possible this should be done, but we would be foolish to write into legislation a confining provision like that. This will be an Act of the Oireachtas which will apply for many years and in case the relationship between sterling and other currencies should change to the advantage of sterling, Bord na Móna should not be confined to investing with sterling.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, subsection (2), line 19, to insert "on third programme advances under the said section 53" after "the Board".

Amendment agreed to.

Section 3, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 4 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendment and passed.

Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.