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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Dec 1975

Vol. 286 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Postal and Telephone Charges: Motion.

(Dublin Central): I move:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the decision of the Government to increase postal and telephone charges by up to 40 per cent, because of its serious adverse effects on inflation, on employment and on commercial and industrial activities and calls on the Government to rescind the decision pending a full examination and recommendation by the National Prices Commission.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs announced on 26th November that the Government had decided that the charges for postal services should be increased from 1st January next in order to meet rising costs. The Government said these increases would average 30 per cent for postal and 35 per cent for telephone communication services and were designed to yield sufficient revenue to put expenditure and revenue in balance for 1976. I do not have to tell the Minister the reception this announcement received from all sections of the community: everybody has condemned him for this unjustified increase.

In recent times Ministers have exhorted the people to do certain things in an effort to curb inflation. The Taoiseach also made such a plea and the Tánaiste, at the Labour Party Conference, asked the public to show restraint during 1976. This was accepted as genuine advice from the Government and people thought the Government were genuine in their plea. We are aware that the biggest disadvantage to our industrial expansion, to the creation of new jobs, has been inflation. Many companies have gone out of business, and during the coming year many more will find themselves in difficulty. It is the duty of the Government to lead and show good example in this regard. If no example is given at the top it is hard to expect other sections of the community to show much concern.

This will have an adverse effect on commercial firms. Many companies are in deep financial trouble and many more will not be able to survive the coming year. The Minister must be aware that charges of this magnitude will put many more firms in serious difficulties. How can the Government justify an increase of 35 per cent as and from next January? The Minister for Finance told us that the cost of living would be reduced during 1975 and other Ministers stated that the increase in the cost of living would be in the region of 20 per cent, but how can a Department increase prices by 30 to 35 per cent? A positive step will have to be taken within that Department, and as regards public expenditure generally, if we are to survive economically.

I expect the Minister will say that the increase is necessary because of the high labour content and will argue that something in the region of 80 per cent of the Department's expenditure is on wages and salaries. I am not disputing this and I do not believe there should be massive redundancies in that Department. The employees of that Department are entitled to the same standard of living as their comparable partners in other industries and in the public sector. However, the Minister will have to find ways to economise and increase productivity. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are one Department which can boast of increase in sales and output. We all know of the number of new telephones installed and the increase in the number of letters delivered annually. It is an expanding Department but we will reach a situation where there will be a reduction in returns if the Minister persists in his attitude.

The Minister will have to ensure that the functioning of the Department is streamlined. The telephone and telex system is of vital importance to industry. It is of vital importance that we have an efficient and reasonable telephone service. If we put this service outside the scope of companies who require to make contact with European countries daily we will be putting such concerns out of business. We all know that returns on the average investment in business was never at a lower ebb and that these increases will have an effect on the unit cost which is of vital importance if industries are to retain their export market.

Many of our firms some years ago were at a disadvantage with regard to unit cost on the export market but the majority of them have lost their competitiveness on that market because of increases in cost. It is the duty of a Government to keep people in employment. A charge like this will affect people in the private sector. I am talking now about the average householder who has a phone and old age pensioner whose only means of communication is by letter to their friends and relations. This 40 per cent rise is bound to present difficulties for them. The Minister does not seem to have presented any formula for the future development of the Post Office and the telephone service. He merely comes into this House and states that he requires a certain figure to put his accounts in balance for 1976.

This principle could not apply to any business concern. If a manufacturing company today was granted that latitude, they would have no problem staying in business. A private company would have to submit their accounts to the Prices Commission before they could increase their prices. They also must ask themselves if their product is competitive, because they do not enjoy a monopoly similar to that enjoyed by the telephone service and the Post Office.

The Minister stated that there would be a deficit of roughly £24 million for 1976 if he did not increase his prices. I cannot understand how estimates are arrived at by any Department. Twelve months ago the Minister increased telephone charges. He said then that those increases would cover the deficit for 1975. After allowing for the increases for last year, we now find that for the current year there will be a deficit of £13 million. If any accountant in a business concern were asked by his directors to give a projection for a given year as to what the deficit would be if prices were not adjusted and if, with a turnover of £75 million there was an error of £13 million, I would not give much chance for his job. The Minister must not have taken all factors into consideration last year because we have a deficit of £13 million this year.

The Minister stated that for 1976 there would be a deficit of £24.6 million. How did he arrive at that figure, if postal charges are not increased? On what did he base his overhead expenses? On what wage structure did he base that decision? Was it based on existing wages for 1975 or did he estimate what wages would be in 1976? I do not believe any professional accountant would stake his career on giving the Minister advice without first telling him that certain expenses were not taken into account.

Is the Minister using the same criteria this year as that used last year when there was a £13 million deficit? In October, 1976, will he again come to this House and say that his projections for 1976 were wrong? He probably will because he has given no indication of how he arrived at this estimate. He merely made a broad statement that if these increases did not take place from January there would be a deficit of £24 million. The Minister should explain to this House how these errors were made and he should also tell us if we can expect a repetition next year.

This is not the only Supplementary Estimate to come before this House. Various Departments have put Supplementary Estimates before this House during the past fortnight and this is not good enough for any Government or any private business. I treat the Department of Posts and Telegraphs as a commercial concern. It has always been treated as such and their accounts should be projected in fairly accurate figures. I expect that from the accountancy system within the Department. I think their instructions were to give projections on present overheads, without taking into consideration wage rates in 1976. I do not believe the Minister could give an accurate idea of what wages will be next year but he could say that the deficit would take place on present outgoings and that he was not taking into consideration, for example, any increases in wages in 1976. That would be a very fair way of presenting this case. We would then know that if increases had to take place in 1976 there would be a further deficit. The Minister did not make that statement. He merely gave us the facts as he saw them and told us the deficit which he expected.

The majority of people outside this House, including business concerns, have expressed their condemnation because the Minister did not put his case before the Prices Commission. He should show a lead in this matter if he wants other sectors to follow him and subject their prices to the Prices Commission. It should be his duty to present his accounts to the commission for examination, as all manufacturing concerns in the private sector have to do.

According to the Minister's statement, it was decided in October that proposals for increasing Post Office charges from 1st January, 1976, which sought to offset the estimated deficit for 1976, should be referred to the National Prices Commission for their views. The commission intimated that the urgency of the proposals and the very limited time available precluded a detailed examination by them of the proposals.

They are fair comments. The Minister and the officials in the Department must have known last April what the likely cost would be and the revenue. I am sure a look was taken at the situation every three or four months and that the Minister must have realised that there was no hope of balancing accounts and that there would be a £13 million deficit in the current year. He must have known what the position would be in 1976, and if he were sincere he would have put these accounts before the Prices Commission last June, and they would have been given plenty of time to examine it. He failed to do what every other business concern in the country must do.

This sets a bad example and it is bad for the morale of the public who are now price-conscious and who face a 35 per cent to 40 per cent increase. If this had been examined by the prices body and if it had been explained that this could not have been avoided and if this had been published in the prices body's monthly report, at least the public would have been satisfied that an examination had taken place. It is only fair that the public should have this knowledge. They are entitled to say: "You are asking us for restraint, you have been preaching to us in the last month, you are telling us what 1976 will be like, but what can we expect when the leaders of the country set us such an example."

If the present system is to continue, the morale of the people will deteriorate further. I realise that progress has been made in regard to the telephone system, that last year a record number of telephones were installed, and I congratulate the Minister on it. However, this huge capital investment must be made to pay. We cannot hope to continue if we have a capital investment of an estimated £175 million in five or six years and if the service is still a liability. This will bring a terrible impost if it has to be subsidised, The country could be rendered bankrupt.

We are not subsidising it.

(Dublin Central): We may not be but we should run it efficiently the same as any business concern would do who would invest at this level. If we are to have 40,000 additional telephones next year we will have to encourage people to use them, but it is no good installing telephones if prices are to increase as they have been. People must be encouraged to use the telephone as often as possible. In that way the system would pay for itself eventually, but if we continue the practice of increasing prices we will make it very difficult to get any return on capital.

We know that the whole infrastructure of a telephone service is costly and we know how necessary it is, particularly for rural Ireland, that we should have better communications. Many sub-post offices and telephone exchanges are in a deplorable state and they need injections of capital. Now that we are in Europe, if our industrial expansion is to continue we must insure that our infrastructures, let them be associated with roads, sewerage or telephones, must be improved. However, by comparison with the UK and Europe in general we are in a very poor situation. If we continue at this rate we will reach a situation where our capital borrowing will have reached such a level that we will not be able to expand further. Our capital borrowing by comparison with GNP is twice the size of Britain's and four times higher than in Europe.

I do not have to tell the Minister the appalling position of the telephone service in Dublin. Though we have provided numerous exchanges, they are not sufficient because of growing demands for telephones, at the rate of 40,000 per annum. I ask the Minister to speed up installations and if we are to continue to instal 40,000 a year we must bring down unit costings. I do not suppose that if you instal 40,000 more telephones your expenditure in wages will rise proportionately. I hope the Minister will carry out a thorough examination to see if we are expanding our telephone service properly. If, in three or four years' time, we have 200,000 more telephones than we have today and we can hold our expenditure on wages and salaries reasonably stable, in that way we will get a return on capital, on the £175 million. If you allow expenses to rise in line with installation of telephones you will be in a serious situation as regards servicing the capital. The Minister should spell out the future development plan for telephone services or get some experts to work on it. The majority of business people, since we joined the Common Market, have been exhorted to review the running of their concerns.

There are experts who can advise the Minister on how efficiency can be improved and if efficiency is improved not only will he maintain the present staff but he will be able to boost their morale. Nobody working in any concern likes to have it criticised. People like it to be praised if it is playing an important part in our economic development. If we can say in this House that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are making a major contribution to our expansion I think that is what the majority of the employees would like.

I think this can be done within the present structure and the present staff of the Department. Some 24,000 people are employed by the Department and they can be retained if the business expands. Any concern with expansion potential such as the Department have, has plenty of room to expand. There is plenty of scope to expand the telephone service. Thousands of applicants are awaiting telephones and as our development proceeds there will be thousands more. We should have a proper plan for the development of the service over the next eight or nine years and we should know what profit it can make. Generally, the telephone service has given a return on capital except possibly in the past two or three years. Even when a small number of telephones were installed the service was profitable. The telephone system is a comparatively new amenity in this country. Up to six or seven years ago there was no great demand from the private sector for telephones but today the telephone is accepted as an essential amenity like radio and television which the private sector require. Even back in 1964 when we had a comparatively small number of telephones there was a return on capital and the telephone service made a profit. If a business can expand and has the capacity to expand, as is the case with the telephone service, and if you keep a close eye on expenditure I have no doubt that in seven or eight years there can be a substantial return on investment. But future progress should be planned in a business-like way and I hope the Minister will try to evolve some such plan. If we reach a situation, after massive capital expenditure—last year it was in the region of £24 million—and find ourselves with colossal losses it will not be an encouragement to any Government to expand telephone services.

Some time ago a Post Office Users Council was established and I should like to know what their terms of reference are. What purpose do they serve as regards the Department? Are they entitled to information not available to the public? Have they access to information on matters normally reserved for the Minister and some others? I am sure the Minister did not consult them in regard to these increases of 35 to 40 per cent. How often do this council meet? Is it regularly? What is their function? I have seen no indication that they are playing an important part but I think they should be able to play a very important part. They could channel information to the Minister. The majority of them come from outside concerns and should have a general knowledge of the complaints received from telephone and post office users. Probably this service should be expanded and brought more into the day-to-day running of the Department. At least they should be supplied with as much information as possible to see what suggestions they could make.

I understand that a survey was made of management procedure and telecommunication organisation in 1972. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister what suggestions resulted. I think the public are generally dissatisfied with the huge impositions at present on private people and business concerns when they are struggling for survival. The Department and the Government have shown complete disregard for their problems in overcoming inflation. If the present practices of Government and semi-State bodies are continued and if we are to expect the same type of increases in public transport, in ESB charges and so on, I presume these are all increases which the Minister for Finance and the Government expect to have inflicted on the public before the Minister introduces his proper budget in January, 1976.

I intervene to advise Deputy Fitzpatrick that his time is almost up.

(Dublin Central): I issue the warning that unless the Minister and his Government show good example as regards restraining these massive increases, if they continue to impose increases not processed through the proper channels, they cannot expect people in the private sector to listen to their exhortations.

I hope the Minister will accept our proposal to rescind the increases as from 1st January and submit his application to the National Prices Commission for process in the proper way. Unless he does that, he cannot expect the public generally to have any great confidence in their stewardship.

I take it the Minister will be moving the amendment?

I move the following amendment on behalf of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to substitute the following:

"takes note of the decision of the Government to increase postal and telecommunication charges from 1st January, 1976, so that consistently with the principle accepted by successive Governments the services will be self-supporting and the burden of making good a deficit on the operation of the services will not have to be borne by the taxpayer."

The Minister will speak later on in the debate.

We understand the disappointment which people who use the postal services feel at the request that they pay higher charges. We can understand also that disappointment might find expression in emotional expletives. But everybody knows that emotional expletives are no substitute for reason. We want, on this side of the House, to speak quietly to the nation and explain the reason for these increases.

The Post Office employs some 25,000 workers, that is, 53 per cent of the civil service. In fact they employ more than that indirectly because they also engage the services of 2,100 postmasters on a contractural basis. The current bill for Post Office staff is £73 million. Stripped of its political manoeuvring the proposal of the Opposition is that the Government should dismiss about 7,500 to 10,000 postmen and technicians in the postal services——

(Dublin Central): We said no such thing.

Anybody who wants to examine the bill may look at the published volume of the Estimates of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs; it is Vote No. 43, for those who have not yet bothered to look at the book. There they will find that 80 per cent of the Post Office bill is in respect of pay, pay for those 25,000 workers who make up 53 per cent of the total civil service. Let me say that a large proportion of that huge workforce is amongst the lowest paid of the civil service. While there is natural disappointment that the costs have increased, the reality behind the demand for a reduction and the chastisement of the Government in not giving "good example" is a call for the dismissal of 7,500 to 10,000 comparatively poorly paid people.

(Dublin Central): That is not true.

This is the reality because it is only by dismissal of such a large number of people that one could effect the savings necessary to compensate for the increased cost.

What has happened in relation to the Post Office is what has happened in relation to all personal services in this and other countries. As wage levels increase, the cost of personal services increases correspondingly. Either one pays the going rate for labour or else one says to the labour force: "No, you may not get what everybody else is getting," or else you say to them: "You have to go", or one-fifth, one-third, or whatever percentage one thinks necessary must go to effect the saving. The consequence of that would not merely be to throw on the unemployment register 7,500 to 10,000 people who would then have to be maintained by society in unemployment benefit and assistance, with no added value whatsoever to the community, but one would also curtail telephone and postal services that many people will agree are already unsatisfactory and below the level they should be at for a reasonably developed society.

Postal charges were last increased in October, 1974. Telephone charges were increased with effect from January, 1975. Between October, 1974 and now there have been five increases in wage rates by virtue of the operation of the national wage agreements. That has added 37 per cent to the pay cost in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, which represents 80 per cent of the total cost, and costs £21 million. In addition, further special increases for some sectors of the postal services have added another £1.14 million. Therefore, standard and special increases in pay alone since the charges were last increased represents a rise of some 38 per cent.

The Government have asked again and again for constraint in the incomes spiral, not because of any killjoy disposition, not because of any displeasure that people will get higher reward for their services but because of the necessity to maintain the overall competitiveness of the economy and to curtail inflation. The Government's appeals have not been responded to in the manner in which the Government wish. But, for right or wrong, the trade union movement and organised employers have volutarily agreed certain increases, and the standard increases of 37 per cent I have mentioned have been negotiated by those people. One may say, rightly, that the Government have been a party to the national wage Agreements. That is true but the Government are a minority party to the national wage agreement. This Government, as indeed our predecessors, have found themselves in the situation that they signed national wage agreements and brought industrial peace or else they stayed out of them and brought industrial unrest.

The consequences for our community are very clearly spelled out in this Bill. This Bill is overwhelmingly, on the figures I have quoted—which I am sure nobody will dispute—one for wage increases; no more and no less. Therefore, we are paying now for the increases given.

Deputy Fitzpatrick queried whether or not the deficit of £24 million on the Post Office next year included any provision in 1976 for additonal income. It makes provision for the 1975 national agreement including the last quarter payable on 1st March, 1976. It does not make any provision for anything that may come after that.

(Dublin Central): That should have been spelt out.

It is being spelled out now, is being spelled out bluntly. It has never been denied, never been concealed. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and the Government in every statement they have made have said it is based upon existing information. The Government have made their appeal for income restraint in 1976. We believe it is necessary to achieve economic salvation, to maintain existing employment and not create any further unemployment. But that is widening the debate. I do not want to do that now, there will be another occasion for that. But it is relevant to this whole issue as to whether or not these increases in charges the Government are proposing are justified.

As I say, the postal service is 80 per cent paying. If the increased cost of running the service is not to be paid by the people who use the service—that means people who use the telephone or people who use stamps for letters—by whom is it to be paid? I put that question very directly and quitely and fairly to the Opposition. By whom is the increased cost to be paid? By those who use the service, or by the rest of the community, or by the whole community?

What is the consequence of not putting the charge on the postal service? I think it is proper to say that if you want to make a telephone call you should be charged the real cost of making that call. In that way you can make your election as to whether you will make a call or not. That is fair enough. Whether you want to send a letter or walk down the road and call on your friend instead of writing a letter, you should know the real cost of the alternatives.

(Dublin Central): The Minister should encourage people to use it more.

Nobody is a better exponent of good business practice than Deputy Fitzpatrick of the Fianna Fáil Party. He is forever talking about the business ethic and good business practice. Good business practice requires that services should pay their way and, particularly when a service is so much in demand that we cannot keep up with the capital required to meet that demand——

(Dublin Central): Good business practice means that you get the service for which you pay.

Deputy Fitzpatrick would say: "Dismiss 20 per cent of the work force and cut your costs."

(Dublin Central): I never said that.

We are not saying that. We say good business practice requires that the service should pay its way. I want to spell out the alternatives because they are terribly important. The alternatives to increasing the cost of the postage stamp, to increasing the charge for making a telephone call, to increasing the rent for the telephone installation would be packages like this. To meet money of the order of £23.4 million to £25 million, you would have to increase all rates of income tax by 3p in the £. That would be a way of providing the £24 million subsidy for the Post Office. Or you could impose 10p on a gallon of petrol, 4p on a glass of spirits, and 3.5p on 20 cigarettes to make up £25 million.

No trouble to the Minister.

Those are the alternatives.

(Dublin Central): The Minister cannot do that now because he will have to do it in the budget.

The Opposition are really saying: "Do not put this increase on the users of the Post Office" who are, in the main, businesses and local and central government. About 75 per cent of the postal service is used by that sector of the community. The Opposition are saying: "do not do that. Impose instead, 3p on all rates of income tax, or 10p on petrol, 4p on a glass of spirits and 3.5p on 20 cigarettes."

The interesting thing is that they talk in the motion about inflation. The increased Post Office charges will add 0.25 per cent to the consumer price index. The consequence of imposing a tax package like the alternatives I mentioned would be to add 1 per cent. It would be four times more inflationary than the effect of increasing the charges themselves. I want to be fair. I want to give another alternative. Instead, you could increase the rate of VAT by 1 per cent and you could increase the price of a pint of beer by 2p to yield about £24 million. I do not think that would be welcomed by Deputy Fitzpatrick.

(Dublin Central): The Confederation of Irish Industry——

Deputy Fitzpatrick was heard without interruption and I suggest that he should extend a similar courtesy to the other side of the House. The effect of that tax package would be to add .75 per cent to the consumer price index. One would be three times more inflationary and the other four times more inflationary than doing the honest to God, straightforward, business-like thing of charging those who want to use the service for the service when they use it.

Those are the realities of the situation. The alternatives Fianna Fáil are really proposing are to sack 7,500 to 10,000 Post Office employees, throw them on the dole, and do not take into account the additional cost of unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance. Or, 3p on every rate of income tax, or these massive increases in taxation on petrol, spirits, beer, cigarettes and VAT, all of which would be more inflationary than the Government's very sensible proposal.

The Opposition are in some difficulty. I can understand why Deputy Fitzpatrick with typical modesty should say that he did not have an opportunity in recent months to research totally his new responsibility for Posts and Telegraphs. If he did, he might not have spoken as bravely as he did here tonight because he would have found that previous Fianna Fáil Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Brennan among them, and Deputy Collins who came in and blew out again——

And Deputy Lalor.

——and Deputy Lalor the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil party spoke in this House on innumerable occasions in defence of the principle to which this Government have given effect, that is, that the postal services should pay their way. In Government they said that was the right thing to do. Yet now, from the Opposition benches, they have the temerity to challenge the Government for doing exactly what they said was the orthodox thing to do.

(Dublin Central): Some of the colleagues of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs do not agree with that.

Deputy Fitzpatrick was heard in courteous silence and he should extend that to others. The postal service has a very high labour content. It is made up of postmen, telephonists, technicians, engineers, supervisors and labourers, who get paid no more, and I am glad to say, no less than the going rate for similar employment. The Post Office charges are such as meet the bill, again, no more than what is necessary to meet the bill but, as far as 1975 is concerned £13 million less. We did not propose that the 1975 deficit be made good. Those who say that we should wipe out entirely from the Post Office bill the £24 million for next year have not even been gracious enough to compliment us for not charging the £13 million deficit to the users of the postal services in 1975.

At the beginning of the year we did not know, and the Opposition did not know, what exactly the national wage agreement would be in 1975. It has been higher than was estimated last January and other costings have risen throughout the year. This is regrettable. The Government have worked very hard against the rise. This deficit would be even greater if it had not been for the steps taken in the June budget, to reduce the consumer price index which have at least kept 4 per cent off the wage bill which otherwise would have risen by 41 per cent instead of 37 per cent. We have, in fact, gone a significant way along the road towards reducing the overall costs. We have taken into account known expenditure and known revenue in 1976. If the country has the wisdom to practice income moderation in 1976, we can be reasonably assured that we will not have a repetition of the immense increases which have to be sought at present.

Among the additional charges which have been met by the Post Office in recent times and which have been of considerable significance are the additional charges arising out of capital investment. The Opposition must be chastised for their gross and culpable failure to borrow money for investment in our telephone services when such money was available at home and abroad at rates of interest less than half of what is now available in the world.

We are now in the situation that we have to borrow money in the name of the Government of Ireland at 14.6 per cent on the domestic market, where we get some of the interest back in tax or at 9½ per cent to 10 per cent on the international market. That money now has to be obtained at that high cost in order to make up for the disgraceful backlog which Fianna Fáil left behind them. We have 40,000 applicants now seeking phone connection. Deputy Fitzpatrick suggested here today—and on the radio a few days ago—that if 40,000 were to be given a connection over-night the problem would be wiped out. He knows well that is not so.

(Dublin Central): It would help.

That 40,000 represents no more than one-eighth of the existing number of subscribers. Even if capital was immediately available for this purpose it would not be possible to wipe out the deficit.

When we talk about capital investment, it is very important that we should look to the attitude of lenders. Some four hours ago, or less, in this House I was being queried and badgered by colleagues of Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Brennan because of the size of the Government's borrowing in both domestic and foreign markets. We would not have to borrow so much today at such a high cost if borrowing had been done when it was a darn sight cheaper to borrow and easier to get the money. The borrowing was not made when there were more people seeking telephones. The borrowing was not made when money was cheaper. The borrowing was not made when labour costs were cheaper. The borrowing was not made, because the Government of the day had little faith in the future of their country and less in the ability of the country to borrow.

As we endeavour to connect those 40,000 subscribers we are faced with an immense capital bill, because the costs of connection have risen and the cost of money has multiplied. That has to be paid for by the users of telephones, not merely those seeking connection but also all users of telephones. If the telephone service does not pay its way and we allow deficits to run up on the telephone service, which is a popular service in wide and growing demand, we will not be able to borrow money for investment in the telephone service. That is a simple truth. I see Deputy Fitzpatrick nodding in agreement. He as a businessman would know that it is absolutely necessary to convince the lender that you understand business practice and see the necessity to remunerate capital, just as you respect the obligation to pay labour a fair price. Both the lender of money and the provider of labour deserve a fair reward, and the fair reward is the going rate.

These charge increases arise out of this Government's sense of obligation to labour on the one hand, and to capital, on the other. If we fail to respect those obligations the postal and telephone services, inadequate as they are, will become less efficient and we will generate ill will and disappointment and we could well generate a situation in which people would make arrangements, particularly in urban areas, for the delivery of their own correspondence which could be done by individuals who have a large necessity to distribute their own mail. I know something in this regard. I know Deputy Fitzpatrick will take the point, which is a personal one, that probably in civvy street I issued more letters in any day than he does because of the different natures of our respective vocations, and that I realise the imposition which increased charges will be on business. But I think Deputy Fitzpatrick in his heart of hearts, when he leaves aside the duty he has towards his party to make a case, will see the fairness of the case which the Government make and will also see the absolute necessity to meet this bill, which is not to denigrate his appeal or the appeal of the business community for greater efficiency in the postal service.

Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned the Post Office Consumers' Council. I am sure he will be generous enough to recognise that my colleague, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Dr. Conor Cruise-O'Brien, established the Post Office Consumers' Council, and I shall leave him to reveal to the Dáil and the public the attitude of the council in relation to services. At least we now have that council, which gives us the benefit of the opinions of a cross-section of our community about the postal services, their adequacy or inadequacy or the various ways in which the members of the public consider they could be improved.

We have made the point, and I think it is a fair one, that inflation is a universal phenomenon and it is revealed particularly in relation to personal services here and abroad. It is of significance that postal rates in several of our European partners are higher than what is now proposed here or as high in many others, and those that are not as high have much higher charges for the last couple of years than we have had. In Britain, for instance they have had two increases in postal charges this year, and I am prepared to bet that there will be increases again in Britain during the operation of the charges which are now proposed by the Government.

Apart from the difficulty of getting capital for telephone investment, if we did not ensure that the telephone service paid for itself and was seen to be paying for itself, I want to mention another relevant aspect of borrowing. Financing the deficit from borrowing, which would be the only alternative if we did not tax to finance it, would mean that we would divert capital resources from other forms of capital investment in order to meet the current deficit. I do not think that could be justified by any canon of good business that Deputy Fitzpatrick considers to be so vital to the salvation of our economy. I do not believe it is desirable to borrow for current expenditure at all.

(Dublin Central): I hope the Minister says that in the next budget.

I have said it again and again and if the Deputy looks back on my previous budget statements and on my many public utterances he will see I have said that again and again: if you must borrow it is desirable to borrow for capital investment. The effect of borrowing for current deficits in the Post Office would be that you would have to divert money which could be put to useful capital investment. That would reduce our capacity to provide productive jobs, substainable jobs. If you believe productive investment is not a fall test and you consider that social investment is a justifiable reason for borrowing abroad—if you could do it, and there is a considerable question mark behind that—the cost of doing it as far as social investment is concerned, if you were to divert money from, say, housing, to meeting the deficit on the Post Office, would mean 3,000 fewer houses would be built.

I hesitate to interrupt the Minister but I wish to advise him that the time allotted to him has almost expired.

I am sure the House, and the country, will take the point I am making, that where capital resources are scarce and costly the proper thing to do is to devote such resources for productive, sustainable capital investment and not to meet operational deficits. I spoke about Deputy Fitzpatrick's embarrassment in speaking to a brief which contradicted all that his colleagues said when they were Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs. One was the absolute necessity to ensure that the Post Office met its deficits out of current revenue and the second was that Fianna Fáil, when in Government, totally resisted any proposal that charges for Government services should be submitted to the National Prices Commission for adjudication. We at least referred this to the National Prices Commission The commission looked at the problem, saw it was enormous and said they wanted more time to think about it. Fair enough, but they said that in the meantime they respected the urgency for the increases and considered that they should go ahead.

We have nothing to hide. There is nothing that we know that we have failed to reveal. The facts are plain but like many other facts they may hurt, they may disappoint. We feel confident that when the National Prices Commission investigates the proposal in detail they will find that there is no fat in these charges. The Government are not showing bad example; they are doing no more than asking that those who want the service should pay for the cost of operating it.

Listening to the Minister, one would feel that it was a pity that the charge was not raised more because it was conferring such a benefit on the public. The Minister is in a dilemma of his own making and the public will not let him out so easily with any excuse or however brazen he may be in coming into the House. For some time we have been told that inflation was something outside our control and that there was nothing the Government could do about it, even the present Government which claim to be superhuman. Recently the Minister for Finance told the people that if wage restraint was practised in the coming year inflation could be brought down by half. At the end of two-and-a-half years there is a sordid admission that the Government have been neglecting their duty and they are now doing what they should have done in their many budgets.

Everybody has to exercise restraint in some demands and if we do not producers will be priced out of the market. Competitiveness is being eroded as charges mount on those involved in production. The Minister told us that we cannot continue to increase the charges of those producing and that we must reverse the trend of inflation to enable our exporters, the life blood of our economy, to expand. The Government have belatedly been made aware of their duty in regard to the economy and at the eleventh hour are making an effort to improve the position. They are making that effort now because borrowing is out of the question and further taxation is unthinkable. It is in that climate that we have Ministers glibly—not in the House —announcing at any old time that we can face other severe increases in costs. Those increases will drive up the unit costs of production and further endanger our competitiveness on the export market.

The most stupid excuses are being put forward and we are expected to believe them. They are made with that ring of sincerity that gives one the impression that the Minister believes them himself. These increases will affect the cost of production, have a serious effect on unit cost, something the Minister did not refer to, and will throw decent business firms into difficulties. Any decent firm prepares a budget at the beginning of the year and on the basis of that budget gives prices to their customers in advance. Any increase in production costs during the year throws them out of gear. The result is a loss in business and a dislocation of employment. I question if the budget is any longer a relevant vehicle for the charting of the financial course for the year because we have budgets brought in ad lib at any time. The budget is no longer relevant as a financial adjustment for the year's working.

What about the national wage agreement? Is it a good example to tell everybody to practise restraint when the Government, without apology, plunges into direct increases which affect everybody. The Minister said they affect only those who pay but a man who loses his job in a factory, even though he may never have written a letter, because the competitiveness of his boss has been eroded by these increases is affected also. To say that the increases will affect only those who pay was a stupid statement; they affect everybody. It has been alleged that this motion means that the Department should lay off some employees but it does not mean any such thing.

What does it mean?

I will tell the Minister in a moment. The Minister told us of the reforms he intended carrying out in his Department and if he had attempted some of them we might not be debating this motion tonight. What about the people who will be laid off as a result of this adding to the spiral that we have been told was being brought under control? It is a serious allegation to say that we mean by the motion that the Department should lay off some workers. Is there no regard for the effects on the economy generally? Is there no regard for the fact that this sort of nonsense over the last two-and-a-half years has resulted in 107,000 people being unemployed today? Is the Minister not concerned about adding to this line, and is he not concerned about the effect this is bound to have?

The Minister makes the glib statement that good business practice requires that a service pays its way. Of course it does. That sentiment will be re-echoed by every business concern in Ireland when each firm is presented with a bill for several thousand pounds more than they budgeted for. They will then find that they have little choice but to reduce their staff numbers and thus add further to the list of unemployed.

If the Opposition were to let this increase pass unnoticed it would mean that they were not doing their duty. I do not know how the members of the Government feel about this, but I have had numerous letters accusing the Opposition of doing nothing about the Government's madness. The Minister may smile because arrogance and cynicism permeates his Government's attitude at present. This is not fun and one of these days that will be obvious even to the Government.

The practice of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has always been to try to pay their way. They used the phrase which I am sure the Minister heard a thousand times, that is, that one year with another, they should pay their way. There were many years they did not pay their way but in other years they showed a surplus. That is one Department with an income and for that reason they are supposed to pay their way. The extent to which they do this is influenced largely by the way in which the Department is run. There are not many people who are satisfied with the way in which this Department is run. That is why these extra charges will have an annoying effect on the business and private communities. The efforts of the Minister for Finance to explain the reasons why the benefits be conferred on the community by increasing the cost were magnificent.

I do not know how long this trend can continue before somebody cries halt. The country was led to expect something more. In recent times the people believed that a serious effort would be made to bring inflation under control. Everybody was prepared to co-operate in this. If inflation is to be brought under control a strict eye must be kept on the consumer price index. If the index is pushed up deliberately by Government action because they say that it must be done if they are not to let some of their employees go, is there not another obvious message in this? The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are the only Department with an income capable of trying to pay their way. It was said that this increase in charges is necessary to keep up with the unforeseen increases in the cost of wages. That makes it evident that the remaining sections of the public service have to get their increases from somewhere else because they were not provided for in the budget. While the Department of Posts and Telegraphs can recoup their mistakes, in not budgeting on the last occasion by raising their costs half way through the term, the rest of the civil service have to get their increases, which also were not budgeted for. Where will the money come from? Will there be more borrowing and taxation? We were being frightened tonight about the horror of imposing taxation to pay the Post Office, but taxes will be increased to pay for the increases in the other Departments.

Everybody knew there would be a national wage agreement and nobody better than the Government knew what it was likely to be. They threatened, and we expected them, to stop this leap-frogging and to bring inflation under control. They could have budgeted for what was a reasonable expectation as to what the national wage agreement would cost. This has not been done. The budget is not relevant any more. It is an exercise for the time being and several other budgets are brought in under different pretexts during the year. That malaise has become endemic in the Government. It has become a feature of Government who are supposed to be giving a headline to the business and commercial communities at a time when we are undergoing the most serious financial and economic crisis the country has ever experienced.

If we increase postal charges by 1p in normal times that is understandable, and could be explained as good housekeeping. If that were announced in the budget provision could be made for it. This happened before and it will happen again but in the present climate when the Minister for Finance has made it clear to the country that serious action must be taken to curb inflation, that everybody must be prepared to accept restraints, this increase in postal and telephone charges will seriously affect every business concern in the country. We come along and increase one of the most sensitive areas in which business people are struck——

The Deputy promised to tell the House what the alternative is.

I will have plenty of time. There are alternatives. How much time have I left?

When the debate is adjourned the Deputy will still have 11 minutes.

The Minister had a number of things open to him, one of which is not available any longer—to carry out the reforms he promised, to do a little work and get a little efficiency in the Department. Another would be to hold out the telephone service as an incentive to industrialists to come in. While the IDA are doing everything possible to attract industry, they have to pretend that there is a telephone service here.

It may not be good but it is a damn sight better than it was when the Deputy left it.

It must have been very bad.

It was desperately neglected but it is being improved.

You have to wait only 20 minutes now for the manual operator to answer a call.

Debate adjourned.
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