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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Dec 1975

Vol. 286 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - Industrial Development (No. 2) Bill, 1975: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

When I reported progress on the debate last week I was discussing the role the EEC will play in the industrial development of this nation. I should like to refer to the European Regional Development Fund. The sum allocated for the first three years is £541.665 million which is a very substantial amount for industrial development but the disappointing aspect is the very small allocation Ireland will receive. We will get 6 per cent of the fund in each year and this is very bad not only from our point of view but with regard to the attitude adopted in the EEC concerning the application of the fund. I should have thought that Europe would have taken a more liberal view of the underdeveloped countries in the Community, particularly Ireland, but also southern Italy and parts of England and France.

The method of allocation leaves much to be desired. It is fair to say that the amount of money allocated to Ireland will not be of any real help to the industrial development of the nation and the small sum we will get during the three years will only be a drop in the ocean when compared with the amount the Government are allocating to industrial development. Our views on this matter should be made known quite strongly within the EEC. I know speeches have been made and I am sure there have been representations at Government level but perhaps we should take a stronger line on this matter.

Governments of member states administer the scheme in their own countries and this is fair enough. The fund is designed to act as an incentive to increase investment in respect of economic activity and infrastructure. If the fund increases in the next few years, as we hope it will, the question of allocation between economic activity and infrastructure will assume an even greater importance. I should like to hear the Minister on this aspect of the fund. There is great need for the development of infrastructure in certain areas and there is also need for greater economic activity on the part of the Government through their agencies in parts of the country such as my constituency in Waterford. Quite properly, the Government have taken a decision to allocate most of the money from the fund to the western part of the country. That is a fair decision although the EEC ruled that all of Ireland is an underdeveloped region. There may be a question of a fair allocation between the whole of Ireland rather than on a narrow regional basis. This question will assume greater importance and will be debated more widely when the fund is increased.

Another aspect of EEC policy which will affect industrial development here is the competition policy. It is important that we maintain a competitive structure within the various industries. I would not like to see a situation occurring whereby we would have a development of monopolies. I do not think it would serve the best interests of our country to allow such a development. Where possible we should have competitive firms within an industry. There has been a tendency here, through shell companies, and take-overs on the part of big companies, towards a monopoly situation. To get the benefit of European markets one must specialise and have a flexible attitude towards development. However, it is in our interests to ensure that we do not have monopolies.

There is a danger of turning a blind eye to this development. We should encourage small industries here. In recent times I have noticed an attitude on the part of the IDA not to grant aid to small firms within certain industries. At least two such firms approached me recently concerning a refusal by the IDA to give grants on the basis that the industry was suffering from an over capacity or that there was not a need for further expansion within the industry. I do not like that trend. It is a wrong attitude on the part of the IDA. The firms that approached me have a long tradition in their respective industries. They are hard working and have technical knowledge of the industry. The IDA should be encouraging a modernisation and an expansion of such small family firms and should revise their attitude in this regard. Competition is good for industry and it keeps the big concerns on their toes. These small firms are quite flexible and capable of competing with the larger concerns.

Industrial life here has been affected by the Herrema kidnapping and the bombings in England. I cannot see foreign concerns sending technical experts or investing money in concerns here if they cannot guarantee safety for their employees or their investments. The damage done by those responsible for the kidnapping and the planting of the bombs was great and those who perpetrated those crimes should be condemned by all citizens. The amount of damage done to our economy will not become apparent for a number of years. I hope there will not be a repetition of such acts which are nothing but an insult to the Irish people. I was abroad during the Herrema kidnapping and I know of the reaction in Europe.

I should like to refer to the need for industrial expansion in Waterford. Like the rest of the country we are suffering from the effects of the recession. The number unemployed has doubled over the year; higher than the national average. As a growth centre we need the establishment of at least two major industries to take up the slack that exists. I am pleased that the IDA purchased 50 acres along the river Suir and designated that area for industrial development of marine associated industries. That is a wise move in view of the potential development of oil resources. The industrial estate there survived well during the last year and the future of that estate is secure.

It needs to be recognised by the Department and the Government and the IDA that Waterford is a priority area for industry. We have suffered more than the national average in this respect and I hope this will be recognised in the coming years. I cited old established industries like Denny's bacon factory and Goodbodys' as well as other old firms which went to the wall. They need to be replaced. I am hoping that an industry will be located in Goodbodys' factory which is still owned by Goodbodys', who I understand are privately negotiating in this matter.

I support the Bill in so far as it proposes to increase to £400 million the amount of money that may be advanced to the IDA, who down the years have done a lot for industrial development. As I said, I hope they will look on Waterford as a priority area in need of substantial investment.

It goes without saying that the House must welcome any proposal in respect of the creation of new jobs, any effort to be made to sustain existing industries, any effort one can anticipate to help the country out of its economic blizzard. Having said that, one might be inclined to query the wisdom of giving to the IDA such big powers as are envisaged here. I share the reservations of Deputy Collins. There is a theory that work expands in accordance with the time you have for doing it. The Minister might apply his scientific expertise to this and possibly one could prove a similar theory in respect of one's demands increasing in accordance with what one can get.

I agree with the Deputy.

Here perhaps we should be somewhat cautious. Money is very scarce and I am frightened when I see the IDA now looking for permission to spend another £200 million. Where is this money to be got? It is not because this House agrees to it that ipso facto this money appears. The money must be raised and paid for, and having regard to the scarcity of that commodity we should look very cautiously at the moneys that have been released through the agency of the IDA. I will not refer to specific cases but the House is aware that in the past there was evidence of generosity and magnanimity on the part of the IDA towards certain industries and subsequently it was not shown that that good faith and confidence in those industries had been properly backed by research.

We must accept the inevitability of the odd failure and all sides of the House admit that we do not want to inhibit industry. We will not back a winner all the time but what we refer to here is the extent of the moneys we are talking about, guarantees in respect of a single industry of up to £1 million, the question of advancing or guaranteeing up to £850,000. In such an atmosphere we should be a little more careful than we have been.

It is difficult to choose between the words "reprimand", "castigate" or "criticise", but I should like to speak to the Minister on one small point. On 2nd July last the Minister introduced an IDA Bill and in the course of his introductory speech he guaranteed there would be an opportunity for a comprehensive debate on IDA matters arising from a Bill which he would introduce later that month or early in this session. The words he used are identical with his statement introducing this Bill—that the same opportunity would be given for a comprehensive debate. I do not use that as a major criticism but if we are discussing the use of money and hoping for a certain efficiency all round, there is an obligation on the Department and the Minister to give good example in the matter of efficiency.

Finally I want to refer to another matter which I suppose is the real motivation with me in respect of this Bill. It is an extension of a point made earlier about what I would look upon as a type of industrial intoxication. When money is so scarce one cannot get £10 or £100 on one hand, and here we are like many unfortunate business people who are in the same fix and who instead of accepting the position take refuge in making a show, in pretending that times are not as bad as they know they are. I am asking that if and when moneys become available the case of the small man will not be overlooked. I ask also that the IDA might use some of the money at their disposal to educate Irish agencies as to the merits of goods manufactured at home. I came across a case recently of a small Irish firm established four or five years ago in the business of the manufacture of lifts for office blocks, hospitals, business premises or wherever a lift might be required. Even though that firm had a worthwhile record in respect of contracts which they had satisfied their tender was rejected by the engineers in charge because the firm had not proven themselves sufficiently and the contract went to an English firm.

The IDA should use some of their money—I do not think a great deal of money would be involved—to educate heating consultants, architects and other professional men involved in the placing of contracts as to the merit of home industry and home products. They should be asked to shed the inferiority complex which some of them seem to have in respect of the home product, as indicated in the giving of a contract to an English firm for the installation of a lift in the Industrial Credit Company's office—strangely enough—although a satisfactory tender had been submitted by an Irish company.

I thank you for having given me the opportunity to refer to that matter and to make the other smaller points which I have made.

Like Deputy Tunney I would be critical of the Minister for not having taken this opportunity to give the House a broad outline of his plans for industrial development. The Minister did say that this Bill and other Bills that will be introduced will give an opportunity to the House to have periodic debates on industrial development. The Minister has not taken this opportunity to spell out in detail his plans and his programme. I am very disappointed that not one of the Government Ministers has taken the trouble to come into the House and to tell us what the plans are for tackling the very serious crisis in relation to industry and commerce now facing the country. According to published figures there are 108,000 persons out of employment and unemployment is rising at the rate of approximately 1,000 a week. In those circumstances the Minister has failed to give a broad outline in relation to the money involved in this Bill as to his proposals, as to how the money will be used or what the priorities are in relation to the expenditure of the money. The Minister will get an opportunity when replying to the debate to tell the House what developments he foresees in this area over the next year or so. However, I am disappointed that not one of his Cabinet colleagues could take five minutes to tell the House what they envisage should be done at this critical time for industry and commence. I am anxious to hear from the Government what their plans are for tackling this serious problem.

The point the Deputy is raising does not arise on this Bill.

It is very relevant to the Bill. If we are asked to vote money we must have some knowledge as to the way in which the money will be spent. Otherwise there is no point in my being here at all.

The point the Deputy is making about Ministers indicating a programme is not relevant.

That is fair enough. There are some points that I should like to make. One is in relation to expenditure on industrial development. I should like to know what the plans of the Minister and the Government are in relation to regional development. There seems to be a trend since we joined the EEC to shuffle off all our responsibility on to the EEC and to expect that decisions will be arrived at and money will be voted there for industrial and regional development here and to sidestep our own very real responsibility in this regard to bring forward a proper regional development plan.

We cannot deal with proposals for regional development on this Bill.

What I am saying is relevant to the Bill and to the industrial development programme, especially having regard to regional imbalances. The Minister and the Government should take measures to solve this problem rather than shuffle it off on to the EEC.

The Deputy is persisting in something that the Chair says he should not persist in.

I will get away from this then. Having regard to the regional imbalances that exist I would assume that part of the money we are voting here would be devoted to projects which would ease the difficulties experienced by companies in underdeveloped and remote areas such as the area I represent, in trying to compete and to survive in these difficult times. I would ask the Minister to keep in mind companies in the far western areas who have to overcome serious handicaps. I would suggest that part of the money being expended by the IDA should be used to encourage and help companies who have transportation problems. They should be given subsidies towards interest charges and transportation.

The Chair has allowed the Deputy to make the point but it is certainly not within the scope of the Bill. If the Deputy could relate it to a section I would listen.

I do not wish to quarrel with the Chair on this or any other matter but the Deputy appears to me to be talking about industry. On a Bill to give more money to the IDA I would think that any aspect of industry and commerce can be debated in the House. I would refer the Chair to my own speech on this Bill last week when I spoke for over an hour on a great many different aspects of industry, somewhat on the lines Deputy Daly has been talking about tonight.

The Deputy mentioned regional development and Ministers coming in to speak of Government plans which I am sure the Deputy will appreciate are matters which are not in order on this occasion.

Perhaps if Deputy Daly had said that the Minister for Industry and Commerce who is here now should speak on it rather than refer to other Ministers coming in to speak about it he would then have been in order.

I find it difficult to make a contribution to the debate if I am ruled out of order. From my limited experience here I understand that I can deal with matters related to the Industrial Development Acts and to this Bill. If I cannot do that I would have to seek advice on the position. I have been looking over the contributions made on other Bills of this nature, in particular, the 1969 Bill and the 1972 Bill. I found that Deputies were allowed when debating those Bills, without objection from the Chair or anybody else, to make broad statements on industrial development. I find it extremely difficult to carry on when the Chair is raising these points with me.

We have had serious difficulties in regard to industrial development over the past few years and there have been serious cases where foreign industrialists fleeced the country out of thousands of pounds of taxpayers' money that was voted by this House. Recently in my own constituency there was a case that I raised here on the Adjournment, where a company came in here and got a grant of £200,000 from the Industrial Development Authority to establish an industry. I believe the total investment by that foreign company, which was established in Kilrush, was something like $50. In granting sums of money of this magnitude, and money is very scarce at this time, a serious look should be taken at these companies so that this situation could not arise.

This puts doubts in my mind as to whether we should continue such a system. I believe the Minister should review the whole procedure if this type of thing can happen. I admit it may be happening in isolated cases and that the percentage is very small, but nevertheless because it has happened some system should be devised whereby the Government can come back to the IDA and recoup the money if it has not been used for the purpose for which it was intended.

The promotion of industry goes hand in hand with the promotion of infrastructural development, such as telecommunications, road works and water schemes.

The Chair cannot see how that is relevant to the Bill.

The Chair is not giving me an opportunity to develop my points.

I would respectfully refer the Chair to my speech on this Stage of the Bill.

The Chair does not refer to speeches by Deputies. The Chair tries to interpret the rulings in so far as he can do so under the Standing Orders of the House.

I am very sorry to come in on this stage but Deputy Daly would be the last Deputy who would try to dispute the ruling of the Chair. The Minister in introducing this Bill made a rather wide-ranging speech and every Deputy who spoke on it ranged widely on industrial development and so on. The Ceann Comhairle allowed a much greater latitude than the Leas-Cheann Comhairle—I do not mean that as a reflection on the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for whom I have the greatest respect.

To clear up a point, the Minister said absolutely nothing in his speech.

I would like to place on record that I have been simultaneously criticised for ranging too widely and not ranging widely enough, which says something about the Opposition.

At the end of the Minister's speech he said that he would provide periodic opportunities for Members of the House to discuss the industrial development programme. Do we have that or not? Could the Minister tell us if the IDA have prepared their plans for 1975-79? They promised these plans which will deal with industrial development, in their last annual report. What is the present position of this industrial programme? Have any decisions been taken? Do they intend to let us see these plans so that we can have an idea of what is proposed for the next five years?

Recession has caused redundancies in many industries and it is necessary to have firm guidelines from the IDA about their plans and how they intend to find employment for the thousands of people who have been put out of work. In my own region there was a loss of 700 jobs in 1974. This is a desperate situation in the mid-western region where we have serious unemployment problems and we cannot keep all our people in employment. The IDA will have to have another look at the policies they have been following for the past few years to see if they need to be changed. When they are preparing these plans for 1975-79, they should keep this area in mind.

There is a great deal of pressure on Irish companies. I was surprised to find in a supermarket in my town that Irish-produced goods could not compete with British imported goods. I find it strange that biscuits can be imported from Britain and sold cheaper than Irish biscuits.

The Deputy is moving into a specific area.

I am referring to the "Buy Irish" campaign which this Government introduced and which has been a complete failure. A very large number of jobs are in jeopardy because British produced goods can be sold cheaper on the Irish market than Irish-produced goods. This causes people to switch to the cheaper items and this affects the "Buy Irish" campaign.

Because of the continuous interruptions I have had from the Chair, I find it very difficult to concentrate on the Bill and the points I wanted to make. If I cannot do this there is no point in the Minister saying that opportunities for periodic debate will be afforded to Deputies if, when these periodic opportunities are afforded to us, we cannot deal with the broad industrial development programme.

Like the last speaker, I thought we would have an opportunity of discussing where this money will be spent. The Minister is giving more money to the IDA for the development of industry. For people in the west particularly, the development of industry is very important, because so many people are unfortunately leaving the land. The only place they can find employment is in industry. Therefore, we are very interested in this industrial development, and how the money will be spent.

I was surprised that the Minister's brief on such an important matter was so short. I would now like to discuss the spending of so much money on foreign industries which, when anything goes wrong, just pack up and go. The Minister should try to get the IDA to take a chance on small Irish industries if they have any development programme because in that way we would be keeping our people at home. I am not against bringing in foreign industries but they should be screened very carefully.

Deputy Daly spoke about what happened in Clare but it also happened all over the country. Huge amounts of the taxpayers' money were invested in foreign industries and at the first sign of difficulty the foreign industrialists packed up and went home. Something should be done about this. If the IDA supported small Irish industries more people would be employed. This should be taken into account because, as Deputy Daly said, there are 108,000 unemployed at the moment.

Debate adjourned.
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