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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 Mar 1976

Vol. 289 No. 1

Social Welfare Bill, 1976: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

On the last occasion when this matter was before the House I was dealing with the employment contributions and I described them as a tax on employment. I was about to put on the record of the House, in relation to the new rates and the present rates, the huge increases that will have to be paid by the employer and the employee. As we know, the present rate for a man is £2.47 for the employer and £1.64 for the employee, giving a total of £4.11. The proposed new rate for the employer is £3.50 and for the employee £2.14, giving a total of £5.64. The differential for women is, present rate, employer £2.45, employee £1.58, giving a total of £4.03. The proposed new rate for a woman is, employer, £3.48, employee, £2.08, giving a total of £5.56. The differential between the employment contribution for a man as against a woman is £5.64, as against £5.56, a difference of eight pence. I assume the Parliamentary Secretary is considering the possibility of abandoning that difference at some time having regard to the often stated views of many Members of this House on the whole question of equal pay. If people are to be given equal money for work of equal value then I expect the insurance contribution rates will be the same and we will abandon the difference between the two rates. The difference is tiny at the moment.

On the one hand we have employment premiums. Employers are being given money to take on employees. On the other hand they are now being asked to pay the savage increases in employment tax. They are massive increases. This tax on employment is a disincentive. It is one of the most discouraging aspects of the Bill. The Parliamentary Secretary said there is an average 10 per cent increase in rates of payment, apart from certain other things. We have to look at the spiralling price increases in the area of food in particular. As I understand and appreciate the whole concept of social welfare, one of the great features of it is that the less well off should be subvented by the State and given sufficient money to live on. Unfortunately at the moment we cannot give them enough. We have to set a standard and give them money to enable them to subsist. These are people who are most hurt by price increases. We read in the newspapers last week that there was a 7.1 per cent rise in prices for the three months to February of this year. This suggests an annual rate of 28 per cent in price increases.

It is a sorry feature of the Social Welfare Bill that the Parliamentary Secretary can give only a 10 per cent increase to those most in need. It is unfortunate, and it reflects the Government's incapacity to deal with our whole economic structure. There is another feature of this Bill which I have no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with in his reply. On the last occasion I spoke for an hour on this Bill. I have said what I wished to say. I do not want to take up the time of the House unnecessarily. Others may wish to make contributions. The Bill has to go to the Seanad and the Parliamentary Secretary is anxious to get it through both Houses as quickly as possible. We will not stand in his way in that respect. I assume the shorter the contributions the better.

There is a matter which I have a public duty to raise, that is, the question of confidentiality in the area of social welfare benefits. How confidentail is confidential in the hands of the Department of Social Welfare? It is a matter of grave concern that on Saturday last when I was in Ross's Hotel at my usual citizens' advice bureau, I received a telephone call from a journalist from a Sunday newspaper indicating that Government documents giving intimate personal details of the lives of many people were found in a Dublin street. I appreciate that this matter is not strictly relevant to the Social Welfare Bill and I would appreciate it if you, Sir, would give me a little latitude on it. I understand that I may possibly be bending the rules somewhat.

It is out of order.

The Deputy is not bending the rules. He is twisting them.

Nevertheless I feel I have an obligation to bring this matter to the attention of the House.

The Deputy appreciates that this is out of order.

I would appreciate it if you would give me some latitude. It is a matter of public and urgent importance that the Parliamentary Secretary should know there are documents in the hands of people who should not have them, including myself.

It does not arise on this Bill. It is out of order.

In view of the fact that we are talking about social welfare payments and benefits, and as people in the process of seeking unemployment benefit have to disclose certain information about themselves, their families and their employment, would it not be relevant to discuss this, and whether people seeking unemployment benefit should be expected to disclose information when it might be consigned to the public streets. It is relevant to the question of seeking unemployment benefit or assistance.

This Bill raises the rates. What is in the Bill or what might relevantly be put into the Bill would be in order for discussion on this stage.

I am discussing unemployment benefit. I have in my hands four documents——

The question of documents does not arise.

——of a highly confidential nature, dealing with unemployment benefits, which were found in a Dublin street on Friday night-Saturday morning.

The Chair is advising the Deputy that he is out of order.

And up to 3.30 on Sunday afternoon they were still there. I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary as a matter of urgency to conduct an inquiry within his Department to ensure that this sort of thing does not happen again, and to assure the House that these confidential documents have been brought back into the possession of the Department, and if necessary he should receive the assistance of the Garda Síochána.

The Deputy may not discuss this matter any further.

I will conclude on this point by assuring the Parliamentary Secretary that the documents I have in my possession will be handed over to him personally. I urge other people who have these documents to return them to the Department of Social Welfare as a matter of urgency.

The Social Welfare Bill.

These documents deal specifically with social welfare. As I have already stated, they were found in a Dublin street.

This Bill deals with rates.

I understand all that. These documents I have in front of me deal with rates and with matters of the highest confidentiality.

On a point of order, I want to state that I sought permission from the Chair to make a statement on this matter. Under the rules of the House I was not able to do so. I assure the House that I have no desire to evade this issue. In fact, since the rules of the House prevented me from making a statement in the House, I have issued a statement through the Government Information Services.

I am very glad the Parliamentary Secretary has given that assurance. He and other Deputies are as well aware as I am of the seriousness of this whole matter. Unfortunately, I have not seen his statement through the Government Information Services. Can he say when he made that statement?

A very short time ago. When I was informed by the Chair that I could not make a statement in the House I took the course of making it through the Government Information Services.

The whole House would be concerned about a matter of this nature. I asked to have a private notice question taken by the office but they refused it on the grounds that it was not in order. I accepted that ruling. I accepted it on my own understanding, like the Parliamentary Secretary, that I would be able to raise the matter in the House on this day.

I did not understand that.

On my own understanding that I would be able to raise the matter on the Social Welfare Bill. I now find myself in the difficulty that I cannot raise the matter of these confidential files which were found——

For somebody who cannot raise the matter the Deputy is getting a fair amount of mileage out of it.

I think the Parliamentary Secretary will agree with me that, from any point of view, it is a most serious and dreadful matter and it should be brought to the attention of the House——

The Deputy is proceeding to discuss this still further.

I am going to ask the usher to hand the documents to the Parliamentary Secretary and I would urge anyone who has those documents to give them back to the Department of Social Welfare.

It is regrettable the Deputy cannot have RTE photograph him handing them over.

On a point of order, I understood that under the terms of Standing Orders we can discuss the general principles of the Bill on Second Stage.

Has not the matter raised by Deputy Andrews something to do with the general principles of the Bill?

The question regarding the documents to which the Deputy has referred is not the subject matter of anything in the Bill. This Bill is concerned with the raising of rates.

Rates are worked out on the basis of a person's means.

It has been decided that the matter raised by the Deputy is not a subject matter suitable for discussion on this Bill.

I think the Chair gave the House to understand that there was a way of raising the matter. I gather from Deputy Andrews that he endeavoured to raise it by way of a private notice question but that was ruled out.

In fairness to the Chair, I understood the matter did not come within the competence of a private notice question. That information was sought and given, not through the Ceann Comhairle's office. Again, I would urge those people who have the documents to return them to the Department of Social Welfare as a matter of urgency. The tragedy of the whole matter is that as early as 1969——

The Deputy must not discuss it any further.

I will hand the documents to the Parliamentary Secretary during this debate or immediately afterwards. I have no doubt that his statement, through the Government Information Services, indicated that he will be holding a departmental inquiry. I hope when it is discovered how it happened that it will not recur——

The Deputy is going on to discuss the matter.

I do not think anyone in the Department should suffer because of what happened—quite the contrary.

The Deputy must not discuss the matter. On several occasions the Chair has drawn the attention of the Deputy to this matter. I have allowed him latitude far beyond what should have been allowed.

I appreciate the latitude I have been allowed. It is a latitude that I think can only go towards the continued co-operation between me and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I have always found the Leas-Cheann Comhairle an extremely fair chairman and well able to carry the burden of the dignity of the House, as it was described by his colleague. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has done that well.

I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary as a matter of urgency to tell us how his poverty campaign is going ahead. Some time ago he announced he would look into this whole matter and, in a general fashion, it was more or less decided that poverty was not specifically related to the lack of finance, that poverty extended in other ways. It could be the lack of education, the lack of awareness of a person's entitlement, lack of direction and so on.

However, there is another aspect and it has been mentioned by the Leader of our party, namely, that the Government have been looking for wage restraint and a pay pause in the recent past. Over the weekend the Minister for Finance has been calling for such restraint and for a pay pause but, at the same time, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has allowed huge increases in the price of butter and gas. It is very difficult to relate those two points. Fianna Fáil in opposition have been responsible and we have urged that there should be restraint at all time but, at the same time, it is very difficult to look for such restraint when those who ask for it cannot restrain themselves. To say the least, the Government have been lacking in restraint. They have done nothing to help the urban dweller to survive. Day in and day out the middle income group in particular—and the lower income group—are being hammered out of existence by continual price increases, in addition to the huge burden of income tax, ESB charges and so on. The Government appear to be doing nothing to help or to encourage them.

The National Prices Commission to some extent have done good work. They have held prices down in certain areas but they do not appear to be fulfilling their task completely. We would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to urge his Government to mount an attack on prices generally. People who come within the terms of this Social Welfare Bill are being told they will be given a 10 per cent increase in their rates of payment but, at the same time, they have to pay these dreadful price increases.

I wish the Parliamentary Secretary well and I thank the officials for their co-operation. I can assure him and his officials that my raising of the matter of confidential documents that were found on the streets of Dublin was not intended to be a witch-hunt against them—quite the contrary.

On this Bill it is only appropriate that I pay tribute to the Department of Social Welfare and to the Parliamentary Secretary for continued concern for the less privileged members of our community. Despite what certain Fine Gael colleagues may say about indiscriminate hand-outs——

I object to that.

I said "certain" members; I did not say every member.

The Deputy should name the members.

There is a general feeling that we are giving too many hand-outs to people in receipt of benefits. It is necessary to dispel this notion. Despite what people may allege, the unemployed do not want to remain unemployed. They find it demoralising and degrading to continue receiving social welfare benefits and would prefer to have employment. They are crying out for employment and do not want to continue to be a burden on the State. I say that unequivocally. I have come in close contact with these people. They do not want handouts. It is necessary for us to dispel the notion which is too prevalent among the middle and upper classes that these people are drones or parasites in our community. If anybody feels that this is the case and wishes to make such an allegation, I ask him to visit the employment exchanges and talk to recipients of this benefit. They feel ashamed collecting the benefits.

The Deputy would not vote for the wealth tax.

People might think we are on opposite sides.

The Deputy raised the issue.

The Deputies on the Government side should control themselves.

A recent document issued by the Confederation of Irish Industry, a body not noted for its over-concern for the under-privileged in our community, pointed to the fact that there has been a 50 per cent drop in living standards of those on social welfare benefits. It is important to bear this in mind when talking about the people who are alleged to be the drones and parasites in our community. This gives rise to considerable poverty and poverty is experienced at this level. I recognise the limits and the constraints on the Parliamentary Secretary and I know there is a limit to the size of the national cake and to what he can give out, but I wonder if the 10 per cent increase in social welfare benefits proposed here is intended to cover the entire year. Will there be a further review in July, having regard to the increases in the cost of living that will take place between now and then? Already this year we have experienced a massive increase in prices which are devastating to these people. People can talk glibly about money problems but pennies mean a lot to the people I am referring to. We are not talking about a price rise that will only be considered in terms of a statistic; we are talking about the fact that the livelihood of those people is affected. Many of them are living below subsistence level.

I welcome the extension of the pay-related benefit. Do we understand what happens when a man's stamps run out? That man has to go on unemployment assistance and, if he is not careful, he may find that that assistance will not take effect for some time because the investigation is a protracted one. He may find himself seeking home assistance for his family and himself for a number of weeks while waiting for unemployment assistance. We also find that single people who cannot obtain employment do not get unemployment assistance because they are living at home. I know of hundreds of people who are receiving no money because they are living at home. After their stamps expire they find that because there is a wage earner in their house they are not entitled to any unemployment assistance. Last week I highlighted the case of a school leaver but in many other cases skilled craftsmen are affected. Many of these school leavers who, because they did not have enough points were unable to gain admission to the university, are on the slag heap, are demoralised and have lost confidence. They apply for benefit but are in an extraordinary situation.

Last week I referred to the case of an 18-year-old who received 10p per week. It took more than six weeks to determine whether or not he was entitled to unemployment assistance. At the end of that investigation the Department found that he was only entitled to 10p per week by virtue of the fact that he was living at home. His father was in receipt of the princely wage of £37 per week. On investigation I found that the Department of Social Welfare allowed £25 of that man's wages for himself and his wife and £4 per week rent. The Department estimated the needs of the son in that household as £8.10 which meant that he was entitled to an allowance of 10p per week. That youth was paid 66p back money and he is asked to collect his 10p allowance once per week. It costs him 16p to travel by bus to the exchange and 16p to go home; 32p to collect 10p per week.

It is time we looked at this whole question of unemployment assistance especially with regard to those who are in need. They are not drones or parasites; these people are losing their respect and their dignity. Because they live at home they are offered a paltry sum of 10p per week or nothing at all. The mother of the youth I have referred to told me she found it humiliating to have him travel to collect 10p per week. She would prefer if he got nothing. Her son is now demoralised. I had a letter from the Mayor of Wexford who informed me that he knows of a number of cases where unemployment assistance of 10p is being paid to people.

It is time we realised that there are people in our midst who are genuinely poor and who find themselves unable to obtain employment. There is an obligation on the State to provide for these people. I know the system is subject to abuse but it is important that we do not consign these people to the situation where we offer them 10p per week to provide for themselves. The alternative for these people is to move out of their own home and seek accommodation in a hostel. I have learned that it is not possible to get accommodation in a hostel for less than £7 per week; in some cases it costs £8 per week. Therefore, we have this ironic situation: if a young person leaves home he will qualify for assistance at the rate of £8.10 per week but it will cost at least £7 per week for bed and breakfast in a hostel and if he stays at home he gets nothing.

I should also like to raise the question of girls in our society. In my view there is gross discrimination operated by the Department of Social Welfare against women by not permitting girls to claim unemployment assistance. This is a serious matter. A different principle is applied in such cases by the Department. If they have no stamps, they cannot claim unemployment assistance. There is a lot of talk about eliminating certain areas of discrimination but in my opinion this is blatant discrimination and the sooner something is done about it the better. I realise the financial problems in our society but the onus is on the Minister for Social Welfare, and his Parliamentary Secretary, to make a commitment to phase this out as soon as possible. We had heartening words from the Taoiseach that we are on the way up, that the good times are coming and for this reason we should get such a commitment from the Parliamentary Secretary. We should get a commitment that this discrimination against girls should stop. It is long overdue. It was carried on by our predecessors with impunity but the time has come to end it. It would be a great example of a reforming Government if they took action in this area.

I should like to refer to the whole question of confidentiality about applications for unemployment benefit or assistance or for disability benefits. We are living in an age when the State intrudes more and more in our lives. We are asked to provide more and more personal and confidential information, information about jobs, information as to why a man left a job or why he did not return to work, why he is out sick and what his complaint is. We are asked to provide this information to junior officials. I have always felt very strongly about this and as a Parliament we will have to debate this matter and decide what information must be provided. We will have to decide to whom this information should be given and what guarantees are provided to protect confidentiality. Junior officials may not always appreciate the importance of confidentiality and this information is available to junior officials. We are living in a very small country and the matter is a serious one. On one occasion I had to go to the Secretary of the Department of Social Welfare. He was most courteous and gave me permission to put wrong information on a social welfare certificate. Had I put the true nature of the illness the individual involved could have been stigmatised. That is something we should always remember. Information goes the rounds of the Department and guarantees will have to be given for the protection of those concerned.

The Deputy will have to raise this on another more appropriate occasion.

I am not referring to the particular incident. I did not hear what the Leas-Cheann Comhairle said.

It is not a matter appropriate to this legislation.

The most relevant occasion is that on which we are debating social welfare.

Relevant on the Estimate, yes, but not on legislation.

I am not talking about the incident. I am talking about the overall policy of the Department. I will not labour the point. There is growing annoyance because employees are being asked to contribute more and more by way of social welfare contribution. When in Opposition I always believed the employee was making too big a contribution. I believed the State was not contributing enough.

Every time social welfare benefits improve there is an increase in the stamp. Deputy Andrews said employers are screaming to high heaven about this and it is a matter to which the Minister for Finance referred. Employers here are paying less than their counterparts in Europe and the State is paying more than its share. It is only natural that the Minister should say that the State's contribution would be phased out and the employers' contribution gradually increased to bring it into line with Europe. That is only right. All these contributions are tax deductible as part of expenses and so it is only fair that employers should make some contribution towards their employees. An employee is no longer a disposable asset who, if he falls ill, can be replaced. We have to look at things in a more enlightened way now and I cannot see any reason for disquiet on the part of employers in regard to contributions.

There are employers who still refuse to stamp cards. We know that the employee will be compensated because the State will make good the contributions. I believe harsher penalties should be imposed on employers who fail to stamp cards. They are really guilty of false pretences which is a serious crime. I think, too, when the Department is made aware that an employee's card has not been stamped the employer should be visited by an inspector to ensure that other employees' cards are being stamped. It should not be a piecemeal operation. The employer should be made correct the situation for all employees. Dealing with cases one at a time only makes for more work.

Employees should be notified at the end of each year that their cards are being stamped. Employers receive money from their employees to stamp their cards and, if they do not do so, it is a question of false pretences. Some employers regard the cards as the least important part of their business. It is time this situation was put right. I realise this may put an added burden on the Department, a Department which is in closer contact with the public than any other Department of State. I am sure the Department receive very many letters each day.

They could arrange for Deputies to visit the Department of Social Welfare to see exactly what is happening inside, to let us know and, perhaps, appreciate some of their problems. In order to allay the employee's fears as to whether or not his cards are being stamped—in many cases he has no way of knowing—maybe at the end of the year when the Department of Social Welfare ask for the return of the cards, the employee's signature could be put on this card. This would assure him that the card was fully stamped for the year.

Some of the Department's inspectors are very sympathetic, being good human beings, and when they go out to an employer who has not stamped the cards they will say: "I will call back again and see what you can do". That is a soft approach. I recognise that some small firms have perennial problems with finance and liquidity. However, I do not think they should use the employee's contributions to fund their firm. Though the attitude of the inspectors of the Department of Social Welfare is very humane, one wonders if it is warranted in view of the seriousness of this offence. There have been numerous occasions when the Department have been notified that an employer is in default or is a frequent offender in this regard. I do not think that such an offence should be allowed to continue. We should make an example once and for all. It is very laudable to ensure that employees are recompensed for the cards not being stamped, but many employees do not realise they can be recompensed for the fact that their cards are not stamped. This should be publicised.

Many people who are ill and send in two certificates do not hear for quite a long time. These are people who are most in need both in regard to their home commitments and their medicines. Sometimes these people do not sign the certificates properly. They do not address them to the right place. Again, a little education of these people is necessary on how to send in the certificate. This would be helpful and would probably expedite the whole system.

I would once more commend the Parliamentary Secretary on making at least some attempt to cushion the under-privileged section of the community against inflation, and I would hope that he will give us some indication, with the inflationary spiral continuing, that the situation will be reviewed by July.

In their early years this Government had little to complain of in relation to the publicity they got through their performance in the field of social welfare, and it is interesting to note that the brilliance attributed so liberally to the Government, which was at that stage known as the Government of all the talents, has now lost its lustre. The most recent casualty has been the Minister for the Gaeltacht since his somersault on Údarás na Gaeltachta.

It is not a matter of questioning the personal commitment of the Parliamentary Secretary to those who are in need; nor is it a matter of questioning his desire to overcome the very difficult problems involved. However, in my view, to be effective a personal commitment must have the support of the Government and particularly financial support to make the changes which are so necessary if we are to provide as we would wish for those who are unfortunate enough to be in need of social welfare benefit.

Looking at the work done in relation to the Department of Social Welfare over the past three years, I cannot say that any really worthwhile progress has been made. The flowery speeches of the Coalition Ministers on this subject, added to the lavish praise up to recently from the media, are not sufficient any more to hide this fact. The Coalition, before the election in 1973 and for some time afterwards, promised that there would be an in depth study of the whole question of social welfare. They proclaimed that the system as it was could not cope with the problems involved and that radical changes were necessary.

We were given to understand that from the study would evolve a complete new system conforming fully to the needs of those who had the misfortune, for one reason or another, to be dependent on social welfare. Nothing of the sort has happened. A committee was set up to do an in depth investigation into poverty, a committee which I welcomed at the time because I believed it would be helpful in giving us a full appreciation of the various types of poverty, how they impinged on the individual, and that with this clearer understanding of the problem in all its various facets we would know how to deal effectively with the problem.

I did express at the time a fear that the Government might use committees of this kind to slow up developments which were needed and which could very obviously be made, without any particular investigation. Little has been heard from this committee since then. Knowing the sense of commitment which permeated the individual members of the committee, I have no doubt that they are proceeding with their task with a will, but I cannot but suspect that the Government are by no means anxious to have the report submitted by the committee because of the build-up there would be to have the report implemented. In my view it should not be necessary for us to wait until the report of the committee is finalised. If the committee come up with worthwhile proposals on how certain types of poverty can be eliminated, they should be made public. The Parliamentary Secretary and the Department, having got this report, should consider what should be done to overcome the problems involved.

There have been no worthwhile basic changes made in our social welfare system in the past three years apart from a few minor adjustments and new schemes which were on a par with those introduced by us— assistance to prisoners' wives and single women. The Government, when they speak of their achievements in social welfare are, in my view, relying entirely on purely technical changes, such as, financial increases in existing benefits, pensions and assistance schemes. This point must be emphasised. As I said, nothing of fundamental value has been done in the field of social welfare. The increases granted to social welfare beneficiaries, particularly those in the lower income groups, have not succeeded in cushioning them from the raging rate of inflation we are experiencing.

It is very easy to boast about the amounts paid now as compared with those paid in 1972-73, but unless these amounts are related to the frightening inflation increases, and unless each type of social welfare payment is isolated and examined on its own, these percentages and amounts mean very little. This Government got a very good start with the £30 million saved on agricultural subsidies because of our entry to the EEC. This money was used, as all parties in the general election said it would be used, for social welfare purposes. Since then increases were granted each year, but as I pointed out on many occasions, they were not sufficient to meet increases in the cost of living.

I remember when the rate of inflation was 18 per cent that the Government tried to make us believe that if they gave an increase of 18 per cent to social welfare beneficiaries they were compensating them for the increase in the cost of living. As I pointed out then, this was far from being the case. From the moment the increase was granted the cost of living kept increasing week after week making it more difficult for the poorer sections to buy even the bare necessaries. It has been proved conclusively that the poorer people must buy in smaller quantities and, therefore, at greater cost, and that their diet is hit most by inflation and therefore, they have a much higher cost of living than the average person. I am not happy about the progress in social welfare. The main claim can be related to the technical financial increases which look reasonably large until they are compared with the real inflation rate and then they are quickly cut down to size.

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary when he says that those in need must be cushioned against the effects of the economic recession for which the Government must take a share of the responsibility. I was amazed when he stated that the rate of increase being given this year is designed to maintain the real value of the payments operated by his Department. Surely he is not serious? If he had said that due to shortage of money he regretted that he was unable to cushion the social welfare beneficiaries, but was doing his best, we would be dealing with this Bill in a realistic way. But to state as the Parliamentary Secretary did in his speech that an increase of 10 per cent is cushioning social welfare beneficiaries against the shocking inflation and price increases we are experiencing, is ridiculous.

Before the budget was introduced it was reckoned that the rate of inflation for the coming year would be between 15 and 16 per cent. Since the introduction of the budget it is estimated that the inflation rate will increase by a further 5½ per cent. Therefore, the rate of inflation for the coming year is likely to be in the region of 20 per cent.

How can the Parliamentary Secretary suggest that he is cushioning the poorer sections from the 20 per cent increase in the cost of living by granting them a 10 per cent all round increase? The fact is that the poor will become very much poorer and this says very little for our social conscience. If we feel that percentages are not the best way of dealing with this matter, let us take instead the actual increases. The actual increase in benefits at the personal level is about £1 a week. In 1971-72 the previous Government granted an increase of £1 a week to old age pensioners. It is worthwhile noting the vast change which has taken place in the purchasing power of the pound since that time. It is only by considering the increase in that context that one can appreciate how miserly the allowances being given in this Bill are.

Try to visualise the value of a pound a week at the present time taking into account the increases in coal, electricity, gas, the recent exceptional food increases, culminating with the 5½p increase in the price of butter, and increases in other commodities. Taken together, they constitute a crushing burden on social welfare beneficiaries. Is it any wonder that many of our people who are dependent on the social welfare payments are physically frightened of the future? People in these circumstances dread falling into debt because they realise that once this happens there is little hope they will ever get out of it.

Therefore, we must show much more concern for those who are on the lower rungs of the social welfare system. Let us take, for instance, the position of a person who is dependent solely on social assistance. When the increases provided for in this Bill are taken into consideration he will be receiving £8.90 per week if he lives in an urban area and £8.55 per week if he is in a rural area. Out of this income he must pay rent, rates, fuel and electricity, food and other miscellaneous bills. At present day prices it is not possible for a person to meet his commitments on an income of that nature. If we consider the cost of even the main course meal in the Dáil restaurant, we can put an income of £8.55 per week into its proper perspective.

A man with a wife and three children and whose benefit had been exhausted was getting about £19 per week before the increases provided for here. Surely this is not a situation that any Government could be proud of. Admittedly, there may be some who fare out reasonably well on social welfare but these are emphasised by the Government, whereas those receiving puny amounts are left to struggle as best they can. We must show more concern for those who, through no fault of their own, have lost their employment and whose benefit has been exhausted. We know that some misdemeanours and frauds are perpetrated in regard to social welfare payments and it is important that the possibilities in this regard be eradicated. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what steps are being taken to deal with the problem. It must be remembered that the obtaining of money by fraud in this way reduces the amount which should be available to those who are really in need. I support strongly the Parliamentary Secretary in his contention that those who wish to live on social welfare benefits are few in number. I would tend to agree that those who are most critical in this regard are those in steady jobs and who have never known the indignity, the depression, and the sadness associated with unemployment. Those of us in public life have had far too much experience in recent times of the traumatic effects experienced by those who, having worked for years in what they considered "safe" employment found themselves suddenly out of work and, consequently joining the queue at the employment exchange. I wonder if the critics could appreciate the frame of mind of a man in my constituency, who, finding himself out of a job, left home every morning at the usual hour for five weeks afterwards so that his children would not be aware that he was no longer employed. It might be worthwhile trying to visualise the loss of morale and the nerve-racking fear of a man in that position. Without any hesitation, therefore, let us seek out the person who is defrauding in relation to public money but let us also display Christian charity for the vast majority of social welfare recipients whose one hope and ambition is to get back to work.

Another serious and depressing aspect of our present economic situation is that so many of our young people are unable to find employment. While appreciating that this is not the direct responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary. I should have thought that he would have made some reference to it in his speech, outlining plans for the future in this regard. I expected, too, to hear him refer to the discrimination which has been adverted to already by a number of Deputies. I refer to the situation whereby his Department are refusing unemployment assistance to girls in a certain age group while boys in the same age group are getting this assistance. In this age of equality one would not have expected the Parliamentary Secretary or the Government to contribute to inequality.

Another serious aspect of the situation in regard to these young people is the psychological effect of not being employed but of being in receipt of unemployment benefit at this early age. The problem may arise that in some instances they may tend not to work later with unfortunate consequences not only for themselves but for the nation as a whole.

I note that the unemployment assistance scheme for smallholders in specific areas has been changed, that the national multiplier has been increased in some cases from £20 to £30 and in other cases from £20 to £40. I was interested in this change but I do not propose to go into the merits or the demerits of it. However, I consider myself justified in recollecting the speeches of Coalition Deputies and Senators in rural Mayo at the time of the West-Mayo by-election campaign when they claimed credit for the benefits of this scheme and went out of their way in an effort to frighten voters into not voting for Fianna Fáil by asserting that if Fianna Fáil were to be returned to office, smallholders would lose these benefits. One wonders what are the sentiments of these smallholders now and whether they can ever again have any credence in what is being said by politicians. I wonder, too, how the Coalition Deputies from that constituency are explaining the statements made during the campaign. One must ask whether the electors are likely ever to believe in these people again.

The Parliamentary Secretary repeats his defence of the extension of the pay-related benefit scheme. I do not see any reason for such defence because we are in favour of the extension. The unemployment situation is frightening but it is obvious that the Government have neither the courage nor the leadership required to take the very difficult decisions that are necessary if we are to overcome this problem. Indeed, I would not expect such decisions from them any longer. Instead, as has been mentioned already during this debate, there is the ridiculous situation of Ministers calling on somebody or other to produce an economic plan while Coalition Senators and backbenchers, too, are calling for economic plans and asking that we break with sterling. It is my opinion that the principal reason for so much publicity being given to the question of a break with sterling is that it affords a badly-needed opportunity on the part of the Coalition to blame Britain for our economic ills. The whole situation is disastrous but the unemployed must be looked after. The pay-related benefit scheme introduced by Fianna Fáil is very worth while. It was intended to help those unfortunate enough to become unemployed to overcome the difficulties of that situation.

I was interested in hearing again the Parliamentary Secretary's defence, particularly when it was followed by a decision to restrict the total amount of benefits payable to wholly unemployed persons to 85 per cent of current earnings. In the course of his speech he gave us an example of a case where the decision produced no change. Perhaps in his reply he will give us an example of where a change will result from the decision, the estimated number of cases where a change will take place and the amount of money it is estimated will be saved as a result of the decision.

A problem which seems to be very much more acute in recent times is the question of the payment of unemployment benefit to married women. I am sure the same thing applies to all constituencies but I have had numerous complaints form married women who claim they are being refused unemployment benefit on the basis that they are unavailable for employment. No matter what type of case they make, no matter how genuine the case, no matter how they are able to prove that their families are looked after, they are simply turned down for unemployment benefit.

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to have another look at this. I accept that, perhaps, some of the cases made may not be genuine but certainly many of them are. It would be worth while having a look at this to see, especially in cases where it is essential that the wife, because of economic necessity, must go out to work, that she is paid unemployment benefit.

I should like to refer to the increase in the cost of the stamp and the transferring of Exchequer responsibility to the worker and the employer. Deputy O'Connell referred to this change and pointed out that in comparision with other EEC countries the contribution by the employer here was lower and the contribution from the Exchequer here was higher. In any circumstances where a decision is made to transfer the responsibility from the Exchequer to the worker and the employer it should be done only at a time when things are stable. I believe that in present circumstances it is not conductive to the development of industry and to the provision of jobs to transfer responsibility from the Exchequer to the employer and the worker. The Government ought to slow up this transfer.

The increase in the cost of the stamp, so far as the worker is concerned, is a penal tax. Generally speaking, in the EEC countries the social welfare payment by the workers is recognised as a tax. I have no doubt, as Deputy Andrews has already said, that the Government will have some difficulty in getting agreement for wage restraint when they have increased the cost of the stamp to such an exceptional degree. The cost of the stamp for many years was relatively small. The total cost to the worker and to the employer until recent years was rarely regarded as a tax. While workers certainly demand an increase in their wages and salaries because of an increase in income tax they rarely concern themselves about the cost of the stamp. Now that its cost constitutes a tax, I have no doubt that in future it will be so regarded by workers and will be included in their calculation when they endeavour to work out the increase in their wages and salaries which they believe necessary in relation to rising costs.

It is a very serious matter to have increased the cost of the stamp at this stage because it is not simply the matter of an individual employer paying his share of the cost of the stamp. It is a question in many instances of a company struggling to exist and provide employment being able to continue in existence. Any changes of this kind which are made to the detriment of a company can have a very serious effect on that industry. In my constituency a number of industries have already closed down. Some industries are struggling to exist in order to safeguard the employment of their workers. When this very considerable increase in the cost of the insurance stamp is related to a large number of workers it can be the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

I impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the seriousness of the situation. I am convinced in present circumstances where industry, which is so vital in relation to employment prospects, is in the difficult situation we find it in today, the Exchequer should continue to bear its share of the cost of the stamp irrespective of what the conditions are in the other EEC countries. It is time enough to make the changes initiated last year and continued this year whereby the Exchequer is unloading its responsibility on to the worker and the employer. Our whole attitude at the moment must be geared towards not only safeguarding employment but increasing it. We should be extremely careful at this time about the added burden we put on industry, which is so important for the provision of employment. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider what is being done in relation to that aspect.

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on introducing this Bill. When we are asking for restraint it is encouraging that the Government are prepared to grant the benefits mentioned in this Bill to people in the lower income groups and people who, for various reasons, are unable to provide for themselves.

The principal thing I like about the Bill is the extension of the benefit period. This extension is very necessary, and also an extension of the pay-related benefit is necessary because of our continued unemployment situation. The extension of the ordinary benefit is very important. Usually a person who becomes disqualified is sick and unable to work. If he is sick for a period his stamps may run out. He is unable to return to work and he is in a very awkward position.

The speed with which payments are made is very important, particularly to people who are sick and who are awaiting payment to enable them to keep themselves and their families. They depend on getting payment regularly. In certain areas there is no local social welfare office available to people who are sending in certificates. When a person sends in his first certificate and notifies the Department of his illness, his record should be available quickly enough to ensure that on the sending in of the second certificate he gets payment immediately. I understand that under the regulations the first three days are not paid for. It is important that the person should get money during the second week.

Recently there have been improvements in this field but sometimes there can be delays of as long as three or four weeks. This can be very hard on a family who are depending on these benefits. Under the new Act rationalising the home assistance situation, they can now get other benefits, but very often people are hoping to get their benefit in the post and they do not apply for these other benefits. When they realise they are not getting their ordinary benefit it is too late to avail of the other areas to which they can appeal. Something further should be done to regularise and streamline these payments. A fair effort is being made this year to keep up the good work done by the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government in various budgets by the increases not only in payments but also in the number of people who qualify for these payments.

It is particularly gratifying to note that, in the three years of the life of this Government, the pension rate has been doubled. Listening to some speakers here, one would think the rates were not improved at all. It must be obvious to anyone that this Government have been committed to helping people in the lower income groups and people who depend on social welfare payments. There can be no doubt in anyone's mind that the Government have continued to care for these people. I, for one, am prepared to give every support to the Parliamentary Secretary. He has proved that he is concerned about the less privileged and less well off in our society. The extension of these benefits for three months is important in very many cases. The increase to the worker of 50p in his weekly contribution is well worth while when he considers the rate of increases being provided and the extension of the time for which they will be paid.

In regard to the abuse of the social welfare system, we have heard a great deal of talk about people preferring to draw social welfare benefit than to work. I have yet to meet the person who wants to live and rear his family on social welfare if work is available for him, and if he is able to work. In many cases people receiving unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance are not able to work in the real sense. They might do certain types of jobs if they were available, but they are not able to do hard work. The kind of people I am talking about are not able to work. They remain on unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit as the case may be. They are not physically or, perhaps, mentally able to perform normal work as we know it.

There has been mention of increasing the penalties for fraud under the social welfare code, and that is a good thing. The numbers who are doing that are very small. Most people want to work if work can be provided for them. Some few people work as well as drawing social welfare. The penalties should be increased in regard to the employer who employs these people and the people themselves. The employer is the worst offender if he employs people without stamping their card or asking them to produce their insurance card for stamping. He must know if they are drawing social welfare benefit as well as being in his employment. I do not want to make a point about this because I believe it is grossly exaggerated. As I said earlier, I believe most people want to work if work is available for them.

There is a change in certain areas in the system of giving dole to farmers—what has become known as the farmers' dole. This is a good thing. I am not from those areas but I accept that help may be needed in many cases in order to keep people on the land and to protect them from real hardship. However, it appears to me that many of the people would not be available for work and when help is required it should come from a Department other than the Department of Social Welfare. It should be a matter for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries or for the Department of Lands if a subsidy for farmers is necessary in order to keep people on the land. It should not be paid as a social welfare benefit. I accept that help is necessary in many cases but it should not come under the auspices of the Department of Social Welfare.

There have been complaints about reluctance to pay unemployment benefit to married women. Many women do not intend to seek work after they are married and I accept that it is necessary for them to prove they are available for work when they make a claim for benefit. Women who have attempted to get employment and who have made a claim for unemployment benefit have eventually won their case even though it may have taken some time.

I consider I should give support to the Parliamentary Secretary because he is carrying out the promises that were made by the Government, even in this year of economic hardship when people are being asked for restraint. Even though the increases in social welfare benefits are not as great as he and many other Members would like, at least he has made an honest attempt to keep up the standards set by the Government for those people who are in receipt of social welfare benefits.

It is said that the Government have done nothing to help but since the National Coalition Government came to power many categories have been included for the purpose of benefits; in this connection I would mention unmarried mothers and deserted wives. Quite properly, all of these people are getting increased payments. The Parliamentary Secretary is to be congratulated for providing these extra benefits at a time when other sections are being asked to restrain their demands. He is ensuring that social welfare recipients will not fall behind, that they will keep in line with what they have been receiving in the past.

I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary's heart is in the right place but I do not think it achieves very much to quote the amount of social welfare benefits received today as against those obtaining four or five years ago. Deputy O'Connell referred to a 50 per cent reduction in living standards and there is no doubt that people's living standards have declined. I am a small farmer and I have many dealings with people in small towns who are in receipt of social welfare benefits. The amount of such benefits do not keep pace with the rate of inflation and it is useless for Members here to quote how much was given by way of benefits four or five years ago. What we must consider is what is relevant today. I have no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary is doing his best to keep the payments to such a level that the recipients will not suffer because of inflation but he is not succeeding.

The worker is being asked to contribute too much towards social welfare. I agree with Deputy O'Connell that very few unemployed people want to remain out of work and it is ridiculous to say otherwise. Most people would prefer to work. However, the worker who has to bear the cost of the increase in the price of the stamp and many other costs must be considered. It will not be as hard on the Dublin worker as on the man in the rural area who has to travel 30 miles to work each day and where it is essential for him to run a car. With the best will in the world, such a man will not be too enthusiastic about travelling perhaps 30 miles to Galway to work each day when he has to pay additional costs for petrol, taxes and so on. He may find he would be nearly as well off to stay at home. I do not know where we might get the money to help the unemployed but it is my view the worker should not have to contribute as much as he does at present. The situation is totally different as between the worker in Dublin city and the man in the country. There is no necessity to use a car in the city but it is an essential for the man in my constituency who must travel to the industrial estate in Galway for work. I would mention the case of a man who came to me recently. He was the foreman in a factory that closed down. Apparently he was to get a six-weeks notice payment plus 16 weeks redundancy payment. He was one of the lucky ones. He had been earning £49 per week and he got a job at £40 per week about two weeks after he became unemployed. He was paid the redundancy money but has not been paid the notice payment, which works at about £400. If that man did not look for work for six weeks he would qualify for the notice payment. He could have gone on a good holiday with his wife with the £400 by asking the man to hold over the new job for six weeks. If that is the case there was no incentive for that man to take the job he was offered. I should also like to mention that this man has to travel almost eight miles by car to his work.

Workers are getting sour because they are being asked to contribute too much. They have sympathy with the unemployed and I do not wish to say anything against the unemployed. While I would prefer to see people working I am aware that those who are paid social welfare benefits spend their money that week. I have no objection to social welfare payments but workers are being scourged, particularly those who live in rural areas and must travel to towns to work, in the amount they are asked to pay in social welfare.

The Bill proposes a change with regard to the payment of social welfare benefit to small farmers. In my view the change will not do away with the abuses in the system. This will not be possible because of the way of assessing incomes of small farmers, on a valuation basis. In one end of County Galway one could find a holding of 100 acres with a valuation of less than £20 and 60 or 70 cows being fed on it while in another part of that county, which is flooded for almost six months, the valuation is 30/- per statute acre. I accept that those with a valuation under £20 can abuse the system but the circumstances of many of those with a valuation between £25 and £30 are bad. They have now been excluded from benefit.

There has been no proper investigation into the income of farmers other than on a valuation basis, a most unjust way of assessing anybody's income. It is outdated. With regard to old age pensions a person's income is assessed in every way and in conjunction with the valuation. Small farmers, however, are included or excluded on the question of valuation. I would have no objection to excluding these small farmers if the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries presented an incentive scheme to increase production and thereby replace what is being taken from the small farmers. A big amount of money has been swept from the farming community and they have not been given anything in return.

I am aware that this is not the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary but I should like to point out to him the injustice of taking money away from the small farmers without providing an incentive scheme. On paper the income of the small farmers has been doubled for the purposes of social welfare with the result that they cannot be included for benefit. While the Government pay unemployment benefit they have failed to introduce a policy to get them back to work. I would not object to borrowing money to get people back to work. Money is being taken off the small farmers but they should be given money if they increase production on the farms. We all recognise that agricultural exports are of vital importance to us and for that reason money spent as I have suggested would be an advantage.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with the question of free electricity for old age pensioners. In my area people who were getting free electricity are now getting bills. Has there been a change of policy in that regard? Some attempt must be made to curb inflation and there is not much point in quoting statistics on this issue. It would annoy me if I was told that I was getting £1,000 this year compared with the £500 I got last year knowing that the £500 I received last year was better to me than the £1,000 this year. It is what the housewife whose husband is in receipt of social welfare benefits pays for her food basket that counts. We have been told that the benefits will increase by 10 per cent but we know that 10 per cent will not keep up with inflation. While I give credit to the Parliamentary Secretary for his concern I must point out that he has not the resources and that the Government have not made an attempt to curb inflation. Taxing the workers more is not the answer. It is wrong that a young person, who is unemployed but is living with his father who is earning a wage should be given a benefit of only 10p or 15p per week. It is also wrong that girls are not paid unemployment assistance.

I should also like to raise the question of married women who were entitled to unemployment benefit. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to cut out the delay when transferring people from unemployment benefit to unemployment assistance. From my own experience I know it must be a hell of a job to keep up but there is an inordinate delay between the time one inquires and the time the transfer is made.

Nobody wants to be unemployed except the very few. Only this morning I was talking to a man who wanted to apply for unemployment assistance. He told me his wife had been working but was now out of employment. He had six children and he said that he had always hoped he would never come to this. He did not want to go on unemployment assistance. All this talk about people not wanting to work is just not true and the unfortunate people who are unemployed should not be criticised. These people are being scourged and they are becoming soured. It is time we adopted a more enlightened attitude.

I come from a constituency where social welfare benefits are quite extensive. I compliment the Government on the benefits they have poured into the western counties. I can remember as a young lad hearing the wailing and crying at the railway station because parents were seeing their children off to earn their living in some other land. Sometimes they never saw those children again. Today because of social welfare benefits there is very little emigration. I compliment the Government on that situation. The small farmer no longer has to go to England to earn a living, having to keep himself and send a few pounds home. Now he can stay at home and rear his family. With the aid of social welfare the small farmer is actually able to develop his land and to increase its productivity. Social welfare benefits have been a boon to business people. Were it not for these benefits many of these people would not be in business today.

The only solution to unemployment in the west is a policy of industrialisation. We have 23,000 small farmers in the western counties who would be available for employment. When that employment is provided there will no longer be dole queues. I am not too happy about taking away unemployment assistance from the man with the £15 valuation.

Hear, hear.

I do not think the Government went into this properly. One could have a man with 50 acres of land with a valuation of £15.

You could have a man with 17 acres and a valuation of £25.

Dead right.

The Government did not go into this properly. Had they done so the approach would have been different. Had I and other Deputies been approached we would have advised differently. Under the present arrangement a man with 20 acres can be deprived of benefit while a neighbour with 45 acres is not deprived. That is the reality. The advice of public representatives should have been sought.

I compliment the Government on their achievements in the last three years. There have been difficulties. This Government have faced perhaps the most difficult economic situation this country has ever had to face. The people realise that. They cannot be fooled. As far as social welfare benefits are concerned the Government have done their duty and they are to be complimented on their handling of things. But I would sound this note of warning. It is not a good thing to give an unemployed man almost as much as he could earn if he was working. This should be examined. Money should be given to the underprivileged, the people who need it. When the Parliamentary Secretary is reviewing the situation next January I would ask him to consider this question of valuations. To my mind it is completely unjust that one man with 45 to 50 acres can qualify for dole, while another man with only 17 to 20 acres and with a valuation from £15 to £20 cannot qualify.

(Dublin Central): Every Social Welfare Bill that has gone through this House giving increases has been welcomed, but I cannot find it in my heart to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary or any member of the Government on bringing in a Bill like this. There are certain parts of the Bill we all welcome but the increases in benefits for unemployed people are not the answer to the problem. That is not what the people who are queuing up at the labour exchange want for their future. They expect something better from the Government. Of course, it is necessary to give assistance to people if they are to exist at all. The Parliamentary Secretary and the Government had no choice but to give increases this year. We are talking here of a figure of £25 million, which is not considerable when we see what is being spent in the total budget this year and the amount provided for social welfare.

It is the duty of the Government to look after the weaker sections of the community just as it is the duty of the individual in his own household to look after his aged mother or father or some invalid within his household. However, the increase of 10 per cent given here will not match inflation and the increases in prices which have taken place over the past 12 months and particularly within the past month. Compare that increase of 10 per cent with the massive taxation that has taken place. We must consider not alone the taxation in the budget, which is only part of the increase which taxpayers have had to endure over the past three to four months. The cycle started off in December, and it is only in the past fortnight we have seen the heavy burden which has been placed on the Irish citizen. There is the increase in bus fares and the increase in all types of food; only the other day butter was increased. Having regard to the massive taxation on beer, spirits, cars and so on, the average citizen is not deceived by the increase being given by the Parliamentary Secretary. It is against this background that we must look at the increases given here.

The person who retires after 40 or 50 years working has leisure hours in which he might like a drink in the afternoon or evening. This is something to which he is entitled after a long dreary day and weary years of work. People know well that what they are receiving in this Bill is not sufficient to cope with these increases which have taken place. It is interesting, looking back over the past two or three budgets to compare the stand taken then by the Parliamentary Secretary and the Tánaiste and the stand taken on this occasion. In previous budgets the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Health saw fit to take space, at public expense, in the press to bring to the notice of the people the huge increases which were given in social welfare. There was also a well-orohestrated television interview in which the Parliamentary Secretary explained how generous these increases were.

Contrast that with the performance after the budget this year. Where was the massive publicity or the type of influence we were used to for the previous three years? The Parliamentary Secretary could not genuinely go on television and say he had given the people something substantial, 10 per cent, having regard to the way prices are rocketing day in and day out. Inflation last year was in the region of 22 per cent. Prices this year are reckoned to go to at least 15 and, perhaps, to 20 per cent. If the Parliamentary Secretary thinks he will fool the people with a new index that is being brought in he is mistaken. Taxation is to be separated from other cost of living items, as if taxation, which was increased in the recent budget, was not part of the cost of living. It might be one way of trying to confuse the public, but I doubt very much if it will confuse the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. A favourable index could be created in that way. Apparently it is the only type of improvements old age pensioners, widows and orphans and such people can expect from this Government. No matter what social welfare increase you may give to a married or single man it will never replace a job. You could give pay-related benefit for five years, but it will never replace the dignity of a man's going out in the morning, earning a decent day's salary and coming home to his wife and family in the evening. That is what the Government should be trying to restore to the people of this country, especially those in the wage earning bracket. There is no point in making a song and dance about this Bill, as if Santa Claus was giving the people something for nothing. We do not need to thank the Government for this Bill. The people we should thank are those who are contributing—the workers and the employers who have to make up the money needed.

During the past three months the cost of living has risen by about 7 per cent. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that this would be reviewed. I sincerely hope it will, but first he will have to review the economy in a few months' time to see if he will be able to do it. I noted this morning that there was a slight decline in the unemployment figures. I would like to know whether this decline means that extra people are employed, or people are emigrating. It will be interesting to see the number of insurable workers. It is possible that the people are getting frustrated and are moving out. It is very easy to bring down unemployment figures that way.

The Deputy should know all about that. His party did it for long enough—30,000 per year emigrated.

(Dublin Central): I doubt if there is any real increase in employment. Some of the leading spokesmen in the Labour Party are devising all types of eastern European policies to industrialise this country. Is there any co-ordination in the Coalition as regards policies? In America, the Taoiseach is encouraging industrialists and private enterprise saying that it will create employment.

The Deputy is getting away from the Bill.

He is getting away from the facts.

(Dublin Central): Another leading light in the Labour Party is pontificating on socialist policies of an eastern European concept. Those two concepts could not be reconciled and made work.

This Bill deals with increases in rates.

(Dublin Central): We cannot talk about the increases in this Bill without discussing the people who will have to pay for them. That is very important.

Inflation has eaten every rise that has been given over the past three or four years, especially since the Government came into power because they failed to control it by taking proper measures. They have tried to confuse the people. The Parliamentary Secretary produced figures which gave the impression that he was giving very large increases, but the reverse was true. These increases have not contributed anything to the standard of living of those people and they know it.

These increases are bound to have a detrimental effect on industry. If there was ever a year when the contribution from the Central Fund should be reduced it was not at this time. I am surprised that the Parliamentary Secretary accepted this at a time when industry is struggling and employers are trying to maintain the numbers in employment. The Government made this decision although they were warned time and time again of the burden this contribution was placing on the unit costs. To move it at this time when industry is most vulnerable was a betrayal of the confidence the people have in the Government. To move £8 million into the private sector and ask the employers and employees to carry this burden is not logical, especially when we are trying to expand industry and generate more employment.

I know workers who got no increase in 1975. Now a 22 to 24 per cent increase is due to them in respect of 1975. It is bad enough to have to forego that increase and tolerate the massive increases which have taken place over the last 8 to 10 months but what is being done now? They are moving £8 million from the Central Fund to the employer and employees and a portion of that money will be paid by those employees who did not get their increase last year. Do the Government expect them to tolerate that? I realise that £8 million is only part of the cost of the stamp, but examine the situation of the employee who did not get his increase last year and who is now being asked to pay this contribution.

Last year certain companies pleaded their inability to pay. There were genuine reasons why the Labour Court conceded that. This increased contribution will bankrupt such companies. Where will the money come from in a company which employs 100 to 150 people? One of two things can happen. The company will be in financial trouble, and it will cause dissension among the employees who did not get their increases last year. Yet, these are the people we are asking to accept a pay pause. In my view, that is unjust. The Exchequer could have carried this burden this year and until such time as we get out of this economic mess. I am not so much concerned about this Government as I am about the country which is far more important.

I remember being in this House some years ago when the Parliamentary Secretary, the Tánaiste and other members of the Labour Party, were sitting on the Opposition benches. They always advocated that more of the stamp should come from the Central Fund. Why the change of heart? I have not the time to go to the Dáil Library, but I can remember what was said four or five years ago. The policy of the Labour Party then was that the biggest proportion of the contribution should come from the Central Fund but there is now a change of heart. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us when this change came about. The contributions to this fund will place a heavy burden on the whole private sector. Anyone reading the annual financial reports of public companies realises where the profit element has gone. Every effort should be made to help companies expand and to maintain them in business. We must not introduce measures which will result in people becoming unemployed after, perhaps, 20 years in the same job. At this time of crisis and when it is impossible to control unit costs the Government are not helping by this measure to maintain employment. We are losing markets abroad and at home there is keen competition in regard to imports.

For a considerable time past I have been asking the Parliamentary Secretary some questions regarding the pay-related fund but the answers I have received have not been satisfactory. It has been said from the beginning that the contributions, both from employers and employees, are too high. Unfortunately, I have not got up to date figures but 12 months ago I tabled a question asking for some indication of the total amount of money collected up to then and also the total amount paid out from the time of the Acts coming into being.

I was informed by the Parliamentary Secretary that up to December, 1974 the income to the fund was estimated at £8,317,000 and that the amount paid out came to £2,943,000. These figures were for a nine month period only but they show a surplus of £5,374,000 which would be the equivalent of about £7 million in a 12 month period. I have not figures for 1975 but I am concerned as to the amount of money in the fund. It is a fund that is not associated with the social welfare fund as such and it was never intended that the contributions would become part and parcel of the social welfare fund. When the scheme was being debated here at the time of its introduction there was concern as to what the figures should be in respect of the contributions from employers and employees. Nobody knew then what would be required so figures of 2 and 1 per cent respectively were taken out of the air, as it were. However, considering that during 1975 wages increased by between 22 to 25 per cent, the surplus for 1975 should be in the region of £9 million. I do not claim that my figures are accurate but I hope to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply as to the exact amount of the surplus. I reckon that, taking into account the increases in salaries generally in the private sector there is now a surplus of between £14 million and £15 million in the fund. There is no reference to this money in the Book of Estimates. If I am right in my assertion that there is a surplus, the fund should be reviewed and what better time to review it than now when excessive charges are being put on to the employer and the employee in respect of the social welfare stamp? This fund was designed specifically by employers and employees to help tide over in the short term those who were unfortunate enough to lose their employment but we never envisaged the recession of today. Neither did we envisage the Government failing to live up to their obligations to provide employment with the result that there are many who have been unemployed for a long time. These are people who are genuinely concerned to find work so as they will not have to depend on these handouts from the Government. Of course, the payments are welcome but most of the people concerned would prefer to be back at work. If the pay-related fund is being used in any way other than that for which it was designed and if there is fiddling in any way in the Department, we should object strongly.

I do not object to the term "fiddle" personally but since the Deputy has added the words "in the Department", he is referring to civil servants and, consequently, I would ask him to withdraw the remark.

(Dublin Central): I am sorry. I withdraw the remark.

I would point out to the Deputy that the operation of the pay-related fund is in accordance precisely with the terms under which it was enacted by this House and as drafted by Fianna Fáil.

(Dublin Central): If the Parliamentary Secretary refers to the debate on the measure, he will find that there was an undertaking to review it.

Can the Deputy not recall an interjection by him on 19th February this year in reply to which he was given full information regarding the operation of the fund? It is an indication of his interest in the matter that he cannot remember what was said on that occasion.

The Parliamentary Secretary would not remember only that he has been given a brief on it. Maybe Deputy Fitzpatrick's papers have blown away.

(Dublin Central): Is this fund to be reviewed? A contribution of 3 per cent every week comes to a substantial amount. If there is a surplus, we must be told what is happening to it. I accept the Parliamentary Secretary's word if he says that this sum is available but if it is being spent by any other section in the Department I certainly object to it. The Congress of Trade Unions and the Confederation of Irish Industry should be informed if that is the case because it was never designed for that.

We hear all types of complaints from time to time about the operations of the Department of Social Welfare. We hear of people not getting their insurance payments every week and other matters like that. We should all realise that the people who are awaiting those benefits are in great need and they have no money to fall back on. It is vitally important to have an efficiently run Department of Social Welfare. I cannot criticise any of the personnel in the Department of Social Welfare. Any time I had to get in touch with them about particular matters they were courteous and very helpful. We hear complaints about social welfare benefits being abused. The Minister would have more information on this than any Member on this side of the House.

I believe this abuse is exaggerated out of all proportion. I am quite convinced that if those abuses are taking place to any widespread degree the Parliamentary Secretary would have taken steps about the matter. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that a survey was carried out in relation to pay-related benefits. The best way to clear the matter up would be if he would let everybody know the result of this survey. The public would then know the extent of the abuse.

I was rather interested to hear Deputy Callanan. I have no great knowledge of farming or of the number of farmers who will go on or off the dole. The only time I meet them is during a by-election when we hear their problems. It was very noticeable that the Parliamentary Secretary said nothing about those matters during the Mayo by-election. I was interested to hear Deputy Callanan speak about the notional figures, multipliers and other matters like that. This brings me back to a Finance Bill some years ago when Deputy Finn spoke about assessing means. This Finance Bill I refer to was at the time when farmers were being assessed for income tax. We had a long debate in the House with regard to assessment, notional figures and multipliers and whether or not they were realistic. I know nothing about how the scheme operates in the country. It is the principle I am talking about.

I do not want to bring up the matter of income tax on this Bill but I consider that what I am talking about is relevant. Farmers with a valuation of £100 were subject to income tax. There were two ways you could assess a man's income, on the notional figure or on the accounts. The notional figure was £40 and from that you were allowed to deduct your expenses. The other way you could be assessed was by submitting your accounts to the Revenue Commissioners. If a farmer was not satisfied in relation to the notional figure, which worked out at £4,000 for a 100 acre farm, he could opt to submit his accounts to the Revenue Commissioners. In this Bill we are dealing with a valuation of £40. Different systems seem to be employed by the Department of Finance and the Department of Social Welfare. The Department of Finance allowed the farmer, out of the £40, to deduct for his plant, the cost of fertilisers and other matters and allowed him 10 per cent over a 10-year period for farm houses and general buildings. That is what happened when a multiplier of £40 was used.

In this Bill a multiplier of £40 is used for both a small farmer and a large farmer. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to contradict me on this if I am wrong. The small farmer is allowed no deduction from that £40. It is net in relation to him but in relation to the larger farmer it is gross. There seems to be some anomaly there. I am not sure exactly how the system operates but I am concerned how under one system deductions are allowed for expenses but under the other system the small farmer is not allowed expenses in relation to the multiplier of £40. This may be a small point but I am sure it is one in which small farmers are interested. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can explain this but certainly the Department of Finance and the Department of Social Welfare seem to be operating on two different levels. I will not delay the House any longer. Those are the points I wanted to make.

The debate on this Bill must be very limited in that the Bill itself is limited. The increases contained in the Bill are meagre. The increase of 10 per cent across the board will be eroded before this Bill becomes law and before the increases become due on 1st April. It would be more appropriate for the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw the Bill and bring in a Bill containing increases which would, in some way, keep in line with inflation and the cost of living of people who, whether by right or by misfortune, are in receipt of welfare payments.

Those who are in receipt of payments by misfortune are able-bodied and physically able people who find themselves jobless and without any real prospect of work. For them, an increase of 10 per cent is not much good. They must suffer the ignominy week after week of going to collect pay-related benefit. Do we stop to ponder for long enough on what this must do to a person psychologically? It must be extremely demoralising. It must sap a person's enthusiasm to have to sign on to draw money.

I suppose we give this Bill a very qualified welcome. I should like to see a decent Social Welfare Bill coming before the House but, regrettably, we will not be able to have such a Bill until we have a greater percentage of our people in gainful employment. Through their efforts the community at large would be able to offer good increases, increases which would be seen to be effective and genuine, to the aged, the young and the less privileged and less fortunate members of our community.

Social Welfare Bills tend to be holding operations. This Bill continues the period of entitlement for a further short period. It is very much a holding operation. It does not go to the root of the problem. Social Welfare Bills should pertain to the young, the aged and the infirm. It is most regrettable that they must pertain and extend to so many people who are willing to work and who want to work, to people we as a country should be ashamed to have idle.

Talking to some of those people really brings home to a person how difficult it must be to continue living, not living in the material sense alone, but living in the social sense. Think of the stress it must put on a home to have a man in it rather than out earning so that he could pay his way. A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you may think I am straying from the Bill but I will make my remarks relevant. If he were working, he would be contributing to looking after the aged and the young. That is one point. What must that be really like for a person? What effect must it have on his marriage, on his status, on his social position in the community? Do we ponder these things often enough? We talk about them but we do not act strongly and speedily enough to remedy them. We will not be able to give real increases to the sections of the community who ought to be covered by welfare until such time as we have a huge cutback in the number of able-bodied people who are unemployed.

I wonder is every person listed on the employment register physically and mentally capable of work. I regret that the Parliamentary Secretary is not here. He might be able to give me an answer to some of the points I am raising. I know his advisers and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health will willingly pass them on to him. If a person is on the live register for up to a year, or longer, is he in a position mentally to adjust to a job? If he were fortunate enough after a year to discover there was a job and he could start immediately, this would be extremely hopeful and good news for him, but would he be in a position to go to work and work effectively? How long would it take him to be able to re-enter the work force?

This Bill is very limited. There are really no extensions in it as regards categories of people who should be included. I will deal with one category. On 22nd May, 1975 I asked the Parliamentary Secretary by way of a Dáil question if there were any plans—this is paraphrasing the question; it is not a direct quotation—within the Department to reduce the age qualification for receipt of a blind pension from 21 years to 18 years. The answer I received was that the Department were not contemplating any reduction in the age at that time. I wonder if any contemplation has taken place in the interim. I had hoped that, in a Social Welfare Bill introduced within 12 months of that question being asked, these people would be included.

A blind person receives children's allowance up to the age of 16 years and, if in full-time education or something similar to that, that allowance can be continued until he is 18 years. However, at 18 years the children's allowance will be discontinued and the person must apply under the Health Acts for a disabled person's maintenance allowance from the Department of Health. The Minister should have changed the legislation to entitle such people to qualify for a blind pension at 18 years, if not 16 years. The numbers involved must be very small and the strain put on the Exchequer would be negligible.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to tell us why he was not able to bring in this amendment. He may be able to justify not bringing it in because of the numbers involved, although I am convinced the numbers are few and the amount of money involved is paltry. Nevertheless, the individuals concerned would be given some consolation and they would not have to look elsewhere for help. Blind people must be catered for and there is no reason to have the gap of three years which I have mentioned. It is regrettable that the Bill does not make this provision. It is out of date even now.

Many of the nuns and sisters in convents throughout the country should be included in the category that makes provision for an allowance to single women of limited means who are aged 65. Many of these women may not have been engaged directly in teaching but they were engaged in the maintenance and the staffing of the convents. Why is the allowance not given to such people? Even though in many cases their contributions are masked and veiled by the walls of the convents, they are doing worthwhile tasks and we have a responsibility towards them.

Many of the teaching orders are under great financial pressure. We know they are taking various steps to protect themselves and good luck to them. I do not think there is any valid reason to exclude people who have worked so industriously in convents throughout the country. We are told that people living in communities are classified as being on a par with those in convalescent homes or geriatric centres but I do not think we can accept that. We know that people in convalescent homes or geriatric centres may be in receipt, either directly or indirectly, of social welfare payments or payments made by the health boards and this is quite right. We cannot justify excluding nuns or sisters of 65 years from the benefit. These people lose out both ways because, as they are not blood relatives of the wage earners in the religious community they cannot be classified for tax relief.

The Government have a responsibility in this area and they must accept it. This Bill is outdated because the 10 per cent increase has been eroded before it has been granted. We will not have a proper social welfare code until the Government accept their responsibilities and priorities, so that able-bodied people will be able to work and feel that they should contribute as citizens to those who are less fortunate.

The Parliamentary Secretary has returned to the House and perhaps I might be permitted to repeat my point regarding the age qualification for blind pensions. I raised this matter by way of a parliamentary question on 22nd May.

Even though I was out of the House when the Deputy spoke I have a note of the matters he raised.

I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with these matters in his reply. The social welfare code is complex and involved. Is it possible for a person to obtain an occupational injury stamp only? The social welfare stamp is extremely costly and the people I am referring to are those who would take on part-time work, contract cleaning work and the like, and who would not be interested in building up a number of stamps in order to qualify for benefit. The Parliamentary Secretary should consider devising a scheme whereby they need only pay an amount which would cover them for occupational injury.

I notice, with regret, that a large number of employed people are complaining about the huge cost of the stamp. The cost of the stamp is increasing and it will continue to increase as long as the Government follow a policy of disengaging the State directly from these contributions. Employees believe the stamp is too costly and this leads them to think of those who are idle but not idle by choice. Until such time as there is work available there will not be happiness within the community. At the best of times we have people who are dissatisfied but it is possible to have a constructive dissatisfaction and I do not think the form of dissatisfaction which is being aired is constructive.

The burden on small businesses, on an employer with five or six employees, in the weekly payment of his contribution to a stamp has now become sizeable. In the circumstances the Government ought to take a look at the course they are following and reconsider, or defer, the three further stages. They should defer them for a while, bring about a pause, a breathing period. The legislation about equal pay was rushed and it proved very embarrassing for the Government and I believe that if there is not a pause and a few years' grace given the same thing will happen in regard to social welfare. The Bill is extremely limited. The increase is meagre and I recommend to the Parliamentary Secretary that he take it back; the increase has already been eroded. He should come back to the House with a suitable Bill.

We have heard a lot recently about plans. Everybody appears to have a plan but when it comes to social welfare we are presented with this type of a plan, one which is not enough to keep in line with the heavy increases imposed on the people. This reminds me of a needlework class, a patchwork quilt. We need a comprehensive plan for social welfare. We were promised this many years ago but it has not materialised. The Parliamentary Secretary should introduce this plan at the earliest possible opportunity. The increase of 10 per cent does not give the weaker section of the community enough to meet the increases that have accumulated to date. According to an EEC report, the Commission forecast changes in consumer prices in the coming year of the order of 16 per cent and to this must be added the increases already sanctioned.

It is deplorable that a Government who have indicated so often to the people that a plan was in the offing and that they would keep abreast with social welfare payments elsewhere have failed in their responsibility. They have reneged on the solemn promises given. The people were promised that there would be a reduction in the qualifying age for the old age pension annually but the Government reneged on this also. It would take too much time to go through the litany I have before me but I have my records intact; they did not blow away. It is not the same speech I made before; that speech blew away the other day. I hope an effort will be made with regard to this matter. There is no doubt that the Government are concerned about pensions but they are ministerial pensions and pensions for the Parliamentary Secretaries. Now that they are entitled to those pensions they should think of the old age pensioners and ensure that they have enough to live on.

We must keep abreast of the times. We need progressive legislation in this regard. Legislation must be updated. No government can claim credit for updating legislation because it is their duty to update social legislation and ensure that we keep abreast of other European countries. I hope the next Bill will be a comprehensive one which will give us an insight into the social thinking of the Government. We have not had that so far from the Government. Some Ministers tell us things are good while others tell us we never had it so bad. They have plans for themselves but, unfortunately, no plans for the people who require assistance.

The Government have shown their irresponsibility in dealing with social welfare matters, and social welfare is a hobby-horse one can ride fairly effectively, but, on this occasion, taking into consideration the statements that have been made, I am saddened by the fact that after three years we have not got a comprehensive measure which we could examine in depth to find out what is lacking in a proper understanding of social problems and social needs. Instead we have this stop-gap method of dealing with great social problems. No doubt throughout the Minister's brief there was a confetti like approach to the problems of social welfare. I will not deal with the pay-related benefits scheme or the Minister's comments on that scheme. We all know there have been abuses recently. Some Ministers admit there have been abuses. We hope these abuses will be stopped and that those who are entitled to increases will get what they deserve instead of this paltry increase at this particular stage.

The burden has now been placed on the shoulders of those who are in employment. The few have to carry the burden passed on to them from the Exchequer. This particular step should not have been taken without a comprehensive look at the whole matter. I do not know why the step was taken. I hope that before long we will be able to deal in a more comprehensive way with this patchwork that has been presented to us here. I know the Parliamentary Secretary is anxious to conclude. I am sorry I did not have more time to deal with the pressing and important problems affecting the weaker sections of our community. Those sections are insulted by this measure.

First of all, I should like to thank Deputy Dowling for allowing me to get in. He appreciates the need to conclude this debate and bring the Bill to the Seanad so that its provisions may become effective at the appropriate date. I know there is a great deal he would have wished to say but he restrained himself and I thank him for his forbearance.

Although this has been a relatively short debate, I found it a very interesting and constructive debate. One of the things that emerged from the Fianna Fáil contributions was the marked contrast between some of the contributions. As usual, Deputy Callanan's contribution was of a very high standard and very constructive, obviously coming from a man who knew his constituents and their problems and who was able to articulate their aspirations and their needs. Deputy Murphy's contribution was also quite constructive, though he is a much younger man than Deputy Callanan. Deputy Callanan spoke with the authentic voice of Fianna Fáil in the 1930s and the 1940s. In contrast with that we had Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick who represents the new image and the new aspirations of Fianna Fáil, their new aims and goals for those for whom they wish to cater.

For me, Deputy Callanan represented the great national party that Fianna Fáil was and Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick and some others represented the party that it now is. The contrast was interesting. It shows the direction in which Fianna Fáil have been going and, as far as most of the Deputies opposite are concerned, they are hell bent on continuing that course, the course of catering for the more privileged in our society.

Looking back on the days when Fianna Fáil were in Government, one finds that they just did not initiate things. It is a little difficult, though not for the experienced observer, to know what they now represent. When difficulties arose they pushed them aside. The true face of Fianna Fáil and the true voice of Fianna Fáil have been shown and heard very clearly since they went into Opposition. They have vigorously opposed every progressive measure introduced by this Government. Think of the time they spent opposing the wealth tax, the capital acquisitions tax and all the other forms of taxation designed to hit only the more privileged members of our society. Contrast that with their attitude towards social welfare. A Fianna Fáil spokesman in the public Press called for a cutback in expenditure on social welfare to the extent of £20 million to £30 million.

Was this political spokesman a politician elected by the people?

I do not know how the Deputy would define Deputy George Colley.

On a point of information, am I wrong in my impression that Deputy Dowling gave way to the Parliamentary Secretary so that he could reply to the debate on the Bill?

The Parliamentary Secretary without interruption on the Bill, please.

I am replying to matters raised by various Fianna Fáil speakers. I am also, as I am entitled to do, stating that Fianna Fáil have come into this House and said that 10 per cent of an increase was not enough but their leading political spokesman called publicly for a cut of between £20 million and £30 million in the same area. Others have made the same point. I will name the Deputies and Deputy Andrews can decide whether or not they are politicians: Deputy George Colley, Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick.

Debate adjourned.
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