asked the Minister for Education why the financial requirements of the Dublin City Vocational Education Committee for this year are not being met in full; and how it is proposed that the Committee's activities should be maintained in the face of a cut-back of £2.4 million in their allocation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin City VEC.
22.
The total expenditure authorised for the Dublin City Vocational Education Committee for 1976 is £10.6 million. This is an increase of 25 per cent on the committee's expenditure for 1975 and should be adequate to maintain the committee's activities. As the Deputy is well aware, it is never possible to provide committees with all the money they would like to spend.
The Minister states that £10.6 million has been authorised. I attended a meeting of the finance sub-committee of the Vocational Education Committee last week, and on the 8th of last month they were notified of a grant of £6,912,373, which is a considerable shortfall. In addition, it does not make any provision for the creation of additional teaching posts. I cannot accept the Minister's statement. In the light of what is happening today outside the House——
I must dissuade the Deputy from making a speech.
If the Deputy is quoting a figure of £6.9 million, his information is inaccurate. The sanctioned expenditure for this year is £10.575 million. This is an increase of 25 per cent and it should be adequate to cover the committee's activities. The committee has requested sanction for an expenditure of £12.1 million. This figure should be adjusted to £11.63 million because of amendments to the terms of the 16th wage round. The third part of the 16th wage round, as we know, was revised from 5 per cent to 1 per cent with effect from the 1st December, 1975. The fourth part was revised from 5 to 2.8 per cent on 1st March, 1976. The committee were notified on 31st March, 1976, that they were authorised to make payments amounting to £10.57 million in the current financial year. The committee were also advised that the allocation did not contain provision for additional teaching posts for the school year 1976-77. The reference, therefore, to a cut back of £2.4 million is exaggerated.
Does this cut-back include the very small sum which would enable the Minister to finance the examinations which are at risk at present?
That is a separate matter.
This is not a matter of payment, it is a matter of principle. There is no such thing as a cut-back when a figure is increased by 25 per cent.
Is the Minister aware that the principal of Kevin Street College of Technology sent a letter to his students stating that examinations cannot be held, that if there is a settlement of this dispute this week the final examinations can be held——
The Deputy is raising a specific matter which is not included in the subject matter of this question.
I am raising a matter of great concern——
It is not relevant.
It is relevant in the question of a cut-back in expenditure.
There is no cut back.
The Deputy will have to find another opportunity to ventilate this issue.
Is the House aware that the Minister contends that the teachers have been paid, while the teachers contend that they have not been paid, for this duty?
I do not contend any such thing. I stated they will not be paid for what even the principal of Kevin Street College of Technology regards as part of their normal duties, according to his radio statement today.
Is the Minister aware that the principal asked for a settlement of the dispute this week?
Is the Deputy aware that the principal has stated, the VEC hold—and the Minister is also stating——
The Minister was supposed to be answering questions, not asking them.
——that these duties are part of the normal duties of the teachers involved and no payment can therefore be made to them?
What will happen to the students?
Is the Minister aware that the students council have asked him to receive delegates——
We cannot debate this matter now.
——from the TUI so that they can get together with his Department to settle this dispute?
A final supplementary question, Deputy O'Connell.
Could I ask the Minister——
On a point of order. Deputy Wilson asked a supplementary question. Before the Minister had an opportunity of replying the Chair called on Deputy O'Connell to ask his supplementary question. May I ask the Chair to give the Minister the opportunity of replying to the Deputy?
If the Minister wishes to reply he will be afforded the opportunity.
May I ask the Minister if a precedent was established by his Department last year in paying for this?
In reply to Deputy Wilson, I met the president and secretary of the TUI yesterday and explained the situation to them. The matter referred to by Deputy O'Connell was fully explained in my recent Press statement on the matter.
Further arising from the Minister's reply——
A final supplementary.
——does the Minister admit that his claim that the hours agreement, January, 1975, which covers these duties, is completely negatived by the fact that he paid the teachers for this exercise twice since then, at different rates?
If the Deputy were aware that the hours in question had been reduced to 16 and 19 hours, he would realise that there has been a concession to the teachers in question and this is part of their normal duties.
Further arising from the Minister's reply——
Order. Question No. 23.
If what the Minister said is true, why, after the agreement was reached, did he continue to pay the teachers for this exercise——
I have called Question No. 23.
——not only in the spring but also in the autumn? Is the Minister aware that the hours agreement of December, 1974, and January, 1975, is supposed to have covered this? Why did he pay the teachers extra money for doing it in the spring and autumn of 1975?
Order. I have called the next question.
I am totally in order a Cheann Comhairle. The Minister must answer that question for the sake of education.
The Chair is on his feet. The Ceann Comhairle is in control of order in this House and I have called the next question. No further supplementaries may be put and no replies may be made to any supplementaries.
Is the Ceann Comhairle saying that——
Order. I have called the next question.
——there can be order in this House when answers to straight questions are being smothered?
The Deputy is making an insinuation against the Chair.
I am not making any insinuation.
He never did.
(Interruptions.)
There may be order in the House but there is disorder in the streets——
(Interruptions.)
Could I have a reply to my question? Did the Minister pay twice since the hours agreement came into effect?
(Interruptions.)
Order. Question No. 23.
23.
asked the Minister for Education if, in view of the fact that there are 1,060 applications for only 40 vacancies for teachers under the Dublin City VEC, he will utilise the spare teaching manpower to achieve a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio in national schools.
There is no connection between the number of applicants for posts in second-level schools and the question of the pupil-teacher ratio in national schools. Such applicants generally do not possess the qualifications for recognition in national schools.