Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 Aug 1976

Vol. 292 No. 1

National Emergency: Motion.

Tairgim:

Go mbeartaíonn Dáil Éireann leis seo le rún, de bhun fho-alt 3º d'alt 3 d'Airteagal 28 den Bhunreacht,

(a) nach ann a thuilleadh don staid phráinne náisiúnta arbh é an coinbhleacht faoi arm dá dtagraí-tear sna Rúin a rith Dáil Éireann agus Seanad Éireann, de bhun an Airteagail sin, ar an 2 Meán Fómhair, 1939, faoi deara é, agus

(b) go bhfuil ann, de dheasca an choinbhleachta faoi arm atá ar siúl anois i dTuaisceart Éireann, staid phráinne náisiúnta a dhéan-ann difear do bhonn beatha an Stáit.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann hereby resolves, pursuant to subsection 3º of section 3 of Article 28 of the Constitution,

(a) that the national emergency created by the armed conflict referred to in the Resolutions, pursuant to the said Article, of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann of the 2nd September, 1939, has ceased to exist, and

(b) that, arising out of the armed conflict now taking place in Northern Ireland, a national emergency exists affecting the vital interests of the State.

I believe the terms of this motion clearly indicate the Government's view of the gravity of the situation which led me to request you to summon a special meeting of the House to consider emergency measures for the purpose of securing the public safety. The measures which we deem to be necessary to meet the situation comprise the motion I have just moved and legislative proposals contained in the Emergency Powers Bill, 1976 and the Criminal Law Bill, 1976.

Deputies will, no doubt, have refreshed their minds on the provision of the Constitution in question here. The provision means that if both Houses of the Oireachtas adopt the motions before them, any law subsequently enacted which is expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of the armed conflict referred to in the motion shall be protected from challenge on constitutional grounds so long as the emergency continues.

There have been comments and headlines which suggested that the Oireachtas was to be asked to suspend the Constitution. Deputies will appreciate, I am sure, that this is not so. If it were true, the Constitution would have been suspended since 1939. The reality is that it has not been so suspended and will not be so suspended by adoption of the present resolution. The protection from constitutional challenge which would be afforded would extend solely to laws expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State.

The Government's decision to introduce this motion and the Bills which have been circulated was taken following two events which issued, in a new and menacing fashion, a direct challenge to the authority of the institutions of State and to their ability to discharge the functions entrusted to them under the Constitution. I refer, firstly, to the explosions at the Special Criminal Court in Dublin on the 15th July last and secondly, to the murder of the late British Ambassador, Mr. Christopher Ewart-Biggs and of Miss Judith Cooke, Private Secretary to the Permanent Under Secretary of the Northern Ireland Office, Mr. Brian Cubbon, and the attempted murder of Mr. Cubbon and the driver of the blown-up car, Mr. Brian O'Driscoll on the 21st July.

The motion asks the House to resolve that the national emergency occasioned by the armed conflict referred to in the resolutions of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann of the 2nd September, 1939, has ceased to exist. Those resolutions referred to the armed conflict then taking place in Europe, that is to say, the Second World War. The continued existence of the emergency declared in 1939 fell to be reviewed by the Government when it was considering the action to be taken in the current situation. The need to secure the public safety and to preserve the State at the present time arises from the armed conflict in Northern Ireland and not from the armed conflict in Europe, referred to in the 1939 resolutions. Furthermore, the existence of the 1939 resolutions results in an anomalous situation which it is desirable should be corrected. It is for these reasons that in the first part of the motion it is proposed to resolve that the national emergency declared by the 1939 resolutions has ceased to exist.

In relation to the second part of the motion, the significance of the two outrages to which I have referred is that they represent the culmination of a long series of violent crimes, perpetrated within the State but related, directly or indirectly, to the situation in Northern Ireland. They relate directly in that in many instances the criminals involved were residents of that area or persons formerly resident there. They relate indirectly in that they are the result of a cult of violence rampant in parts of that jurisdiction. Taken together, these crimes add up to a serious danger to the public safety and to the preservation of the institutions of State.

In one sense, the recent incidents raised the challenge to the State and to its organs to a new plane in that they were directed at the discharge of two functions fundamental to the government of the State or, indeed, of any State. The murder of the British Ambassador struck at the conduct of our international relations while the explosion at Green Street struck directly at the administration of justice. The challenge thus posed called for an unequivocal response. This is given in the present motion and in the Bills before the House.

The Government believe that the extent of violent crime by irregular subversive bodies and persons associated with such bodies, the new dimension added by the recent events and the further threat to the institutions of State implied by these events, constitute a national emergency affecting the vital interests of the State. We believe it was necessary to make clear our response as soon as possible after the recent outrages and that it could not await the date fixed for the normal resumption of the House. To do so would only serve to embolden those dedicated to the overthrow of the institutions of State.

The motion refers to "the armed conflict now taking place in Northern Ireland". Regrettably, that conflict and the unsettled situation generally in that part of the country have been with us since long before this Government took office. The toll in lives, in injuries to persons and in the destruction of property there has been enormous. Since 1969, more than 1,600 persons have lost their lives, while more than 18,000 have suffered injuries. The level of deaths and injuries as a result of violent attacks is now higher than in any year since the present conflict began, with the exception of 1972. On average, every day this year has seen one murder, four injured in terrorist attacks, two bombings, two to three armed robberies and five shootings in Northern Ireland.

The conflict in the North has a number of aspects. There are the random and callous sectarian assassinations of civilians from both sections of the community there by members of paramilitary bodies or by other killers from the other section of the community. From time to time, there have been outbreaks of factional violence between or within paramilitary bodies on the same side of the community divide. There is gangsterism under the guise of political motivation. It is obvious that alien and sinister influences are at work against the Irish people North and South irrespective of politics or religion. These aspects, especially the reciprocal sectarian shootings and bombings have claimed a great many lives.

Although the terrible circle of violence has affected all sections of the community in the North the principal element in the conflict is undeniably the armed campaign of violence conducted by the IRA against the security forces and against the economy and life of the area. It is common ground, I believe, among all of us here that the divisions in the Northern community as a result of history, the discontent and frustration on the part of the minority consequent on the way in which the area was governed during the 50 years of devolved government and the resistance offered to the implementation of legitimate reforms campaigned for in a non-violent way provided ample potential for conflict in Northern Ireland.

Nevertheless, the immediate cause of the deaths and injuries daily inflicted by bomb and bullet was the campaign of armed violence launched by the IRA. The appalling assassinations of Catholics by Loyalist paramilitary organisations, carried out by way of reprisals for the murders and bombings by the IRA, and the subsequent systematic and equally horrifying series of counter-assassinations and counter-bombings resulted in the ghastly spiral of tit-for-tat killings for which no end is in sight.

I and the other members of the Government have repeatedly stressed that the violence in Northern Ireland is overwhelmingly indigenous to the area. The evidence for this is clear to all who wish to see it, for example, in the places of origin of those convicted for relevant offences in the Northern courts. We have said that the number of violent incidents involving persons crossing into the North from this side of the Border has been very small in relation to the scale of violence generally in the North. Again, the record continues to bear out the truth of this. We have pointed out that in the context of the overall scale of violence, the problem posed in the past by fugitive offenders or alleged offenders was, in numerical terms, of marginal significance.

In setting out again these facts of the situation, I do not wish to suggest that even if there were no violence here or no implications for the institutions of State in this part of Ireland, we could remain unconcerned or inactive. We could only remain unmoved by the sufferings of the people in the North if we were to turn our back on all that we have professed since the foundation of the State and indeed long before. So far from doing anything of the kind, the primary aim of our policy has been the safety of the lives of all in Northern Ireland, without distinction of creed or political affiliation.

All but a very small number of terrorist crimes in the North are committed by persons from within that area. It must be recognised, however, that much of the violence is perpetrated by persons and bodies claiming to act in the name of the Irish people. Although this claim has repeatedly been repudiated by our people, it imposes a heavy duty on us here to do all in our power to ensure that this part of the country is not a base for attacks in the North, or a source of arms or explosives, or a haven for fugitives. The Government have accepted this duty and acted on it.

Deputies are aware of the very considerable strengthening of the Army and of the Garda Síochána so that between them they now number almost 23,000 men; of the intensive anti-terrorist activity of the security forces, particularly in Border areas; of the legislation passed enabling us to try persons accused of committing terrorist offences in the North and, for some offences, in Britain or elsewhere; and of the strict control on the possession of firearms and on the storage, movement and use of explosives.

As I have indicated, our concern to protect lives in Northern Ireland has been a major consideration in all we have done in the field of security. We have also recognised that the prospects of securing agreement on a form of government to which both sections of the Northern community would give their allegiance would be greatly enhanced if the incidence of violence could be reduced and ultimately eliminated. A further reason for doing whatever we can to curb the violence in the North is the realisation that it is postponing to a distant future any hope of establishing a sense of common identity and interest between the two main streams in this country.

These are all considerations of the highest importance. But over-riding all of them is our concern with the public safety and with the preservation of the State. The first duty of a democratic government is to protect the lives of their citizens and to allow them to live and go about their legitimate business in peace. We have seen in Northern Ireland how violence, if it gets out of control, can destroy personal and community life. There has been an overspill of that violence into this part of the country, an overspill with the most serious consequences and with even greater implications.

Since 1974, 37 people have been killed in the State as a result of bombings connected with the situation in Northern Ireland. The majority of the deaths occurred as a result of bombings which were explicitly stated to be in reprisal for acts of violence in Northern Ireland. There were a number of killings by IRA assassins, including that of Senator Billy Fox. Members of the Garda Síochána lost their lives in the course of duty and were shot at or threatened by armed men. In the same period, since 1974, 189 people were recorded as having suffered injuries, some of them very serious in nature, as a result of bombings apparently connected with the conflict in Northern Ireland. There were a number of cases where people were kidnapped or held hostage. Particularly noteworthy were the kidnappings of Lord and Lady Donoughmore and Dr. Herrema and the attempt made to obstruct by intimidation the executive branch of government. We have had hijackings of cars and helicopters. A number of workshops producing bombs, mortars and other weapons of destruction have been discovered. There have been a large number of armed robberies, very many of them, perhaps the great majority, to secure funds for the purposes of unlawful organisations. Since 1974 there have been no less than 81 armed bank raids and 56 armed post office raids. These included a number of mail train robberies of a very serious character. I have referred only to some of the more serious incidents since 1974. There were many others and, of course, they went back beyond 1974. Indeed, intimidation and fear on the part of witnesses and jurymen compelled the previous Government to issue a proclamation in 1972 that the ordinary courts were inadequate to secure the effective administration of justice and the preservation of public peace and order and to bring Part V of the Offences Against the State Act into force and to establish the Special Criminal Court.

The Government have faced the situation head on. We have met force with the legitimate force of the State and of the law. As I already mentioned, we have taken far-reaching steps to deny the subversives access to arms and explosives. We have greatly strengthened the Army which is now at its highest ever strength in peacetime. We have increased Garda strength to record levels. We have greatly improved the equipment available to both the Army and the Garda. These measures have had to be taken at considerable cost at a time when we are facing grave economic difficulties. We have strengthened the law. Above all, we have given the security forces our wholehearted support in their efforts to bring to justice those who commit crimes of violence or who are members of irregular and unlawful organisations.

The steps we have taken and the efforts of the security forces have led to the apprehension and conviction of those responsible for a great number of the crimes to which I have referred. Since this Government came to office, there have been 612 convictions in the Special Criminal Court. That is up to the end of last month.

I would like to pay a well deserved tribute to the officers and men and women of the Garda Síochána and of the Defence Forces for the way in which they have discharged the duties placed on them, often tedious and sometimes dangerous, in protecting lives and property and in seeking out and arresting ruthless and desperate men. I also want to express our appreciation, in equal measure, of the services rendered by the officers of the prison service who have the custody of these people when they are caught and convicted. Their job is a very difficult one in current circumstances. On behalf of the Government and of all our people, I want to assure every man and woman in all three bodies that their efforts are deeply appreciated.

It would be extremely unwise, however, to adopt a complacent attitude as a result of the security forces' successes. The number of armed robberies in the State remains at an intolerably high level. In Northern Ireland, the tempo of armed attacks and bombing by the IRA has been stepped up again. And within the State we have had the clear challenge posed by the events to which I referred in my opening remarks. The challenge is from a body operating within the State but organised on a 32-county basis and with a substantial armed membership in Northern Ireland. In the Government's view, the situation requires that the Government should be able to take emergency powers to whatever extent may be necessary to crush the armed conspiracy against lives and democratic government which faces the nation.

I want to assure the House that there is no intention on our part of operating in an arbitrary manner under the immunity conferred by this motion, if passed by both Houses. The Government are conscious that for them to act in such a manner would be to play into the hands of those threatening our democratic form of government. It is our wish and our intention to proceed at all times in accordance with the rule of law. But the very existence in the Constitution of the Article under which this resolution is moved is evidence that there are circumstances in which a democratic government may be compelled to limit the exercise of individual rights in the interests of protecting from attack the ordered community of the State, without which anarchy and armed repression would reign supreme and the exercise of individual rights and fundamental freedoms be utterly abolished.

Deputies will note that under the Emergency Powers Bill, the only new power the Government are asking is the power for the Garda to hold in custody for up to seven days, persons suspected in connection with the actual, attempted or intended commission of a range of serious offences which have been a feature of the campaigns of violence and terror in recent years, or suspected of being in possession of evidence or information regarding such offences. The provision would lapse after 12 months from the date of the passing of the Act unless continued in force by Government order. Where it had lapsed it could be reactivated by Government order. The Emergency Powers Act would automatically expire when the Dáil and Seanad resolved that the national emergency proposed to be declared had ceased to exist.

Experience has shown that the period of 48 hours during which persons can now be held in custody under the law is often insufficient for the completion of Garda inquiries in relation to serious offences of the type in question. We have seen that the organisation and execution of such offences can extend widely over the country and involve a substantial number of persons. The security authorities consider that the extended period available for questioning suspects, as information becomes available in the course of inquiries, would unquestionably help to bring to justice the perpetrators of a significantly greater number of offences before they can carry out further outrages. The Government consider that in dealing with ruthless paramilitary organisations, the necessary limitation of individual liberty is fully justified.

The Minister for Justice will be dealing in more detail with the Emergency Powers Bill and with the other Bill, the Criminal Law Bill, 1976, which will, of course, form part of the normal law and is not limited in its application to the period of a national emergency. This latter Bill contains a number of different types of provision. First, there are provisions seeking to give improved and extended powers in the enforcement of the law and in the investigation of offences of what I may describe broadly as being of a subversive character. The Garda Síochána are given new and increased powers to search places and vehicles under a warrant issued by a superintendent, to search vehicles stopped during investigation and in certain circumstances, to search the occupants of such vehicles. The Garda are also given powers in relation to persons in custody under the provisions of any enactment under which persons may be arrested, kept in custody and questioned. The relevant section includes powers in relation to establishment of identity, search of the persons and technical tests of assistance in solving these crimes.

Other provisions seek to increase substantially the maximum penalties for various offences under the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, and to provide that kidnapping, false imprisonment and hi-jacking of vehicles shall be felonies and to lay down very severe maximum penalties for these offences. Examples of the increase in maximum penalties are an increase from two to seven years' imprisonment in that for membership of an unlawful organisation and an increase from seven years' to 20 years' imprisonment for obstructing the carrying on of any of the branches of the Government of the State or the discharge of their functions by persons carrying out the duties or work of any of those branches. Here, I want to say unequivocally that persons convicted of terrorist offences can expect no amnesty in respect of their sentences.

Other provisions seek to plug any gaps in the range of subversive acts or activities constituting offences. These relate to such matters as recruiting persons into unlawful organisations, giving assistance to an escaped prisoner to evade recapture, injuring persons or property in prisons, smuggling material into and out of prisons and the unauthorised possession by prisoners of photographs, maps, sketches and so on, of prisons, Garda stations and courthouses.

I would like to make some further comments in regard to two sections in the Criminal Law Bill, section 3 and section 15. Section 3 creates a new offence. It seeks to provide that any person who, expressly or by implication, directly or through another person, or by advertisement, propaganda or any other means, incites or invites another person, or other persons generally to join an unlawful organisation or to take part in, support or assist its activities shall be guilty of an offence. The maximum penalty proposed is ten years' imprisonment. The section aims to get at those who avoid the dirty work in prosecuting campaigns of violence but who incite others to undertake or support the activities involved, as well as those who are responsible for recruiting often young and impressionable persons into illegal armies. Fears have been expressed that the section is too widely drawn, and that the things referred to are imprecisely described. I reject these criticisms. A reading of the section clearly shows that it is not aimed at suppressing the necessary and healthy debate on political and economic questions characteristic of a democracy or to stifle the free expression of views on these matters. It deals with incitement to join or to participate in or support the activities of unlawful organisations, that is to say organisations which advocate or encourage or seek to procure by force, violence or other unconstitutional means an alteration of the Constitution; or which raise and maintain a military or armed force in contravention of the Constitution or attempt to do so; or which engage in, promote, encourage or advocate the commission of criminal offences or the obstruction of or interference in the administration of justice. This is the type of thing with which we are dealing in this section. The section is so framed that it can be used effectively against those who make no secret of their active support and encouragement for the kind of activities I have mentioned.

Section 15 proposes to confer on the Defence Forces power to arrest and search in certain, carefully defined circumstances. There is no question of altering the basic role of the Defence Forces in security. They will continue to act in aid of the civil power assisting the Garda Síochána who will continue to have primary responsibility for internal security. Under the Bill, the powers of arrest and search could be exercised only on the request of a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of Superintendent and members of the Defence Forces exercising these powers must be on duty and in uniform. A person arrested under the powers would have to be delivered into the custody of the Garda Síochána not later than six hours from the time of his arrest—otherwise he would have to be released. The purpose in giving these powers is simply stated. It is to make available the maximum resources in countering the activities of unlawful bodies. The powers could be particularly useful in the aftermath of a major crime such as murder, kidnapping or jail break. While such powers were conferred on the Defence Forces on a number of occasions since the foundation of the State, it has not been found necessary to do so since the lapse of the emergency wartime powers. However, I have no doubt that in current circumstances, our people wish to see the full resources of the State brought to bear in the fight against terrorism.

If I might refer again to the Emergency Powers Bill, the proposal in the Bill to give power to hold a person in custody, after arrest, for a period of seven days, could, in the absence of derogation, be regarded as a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights to which the State is party. That Convention provides for the right to liberty, and contains certain procedural guarantees on arrest. Under Article 15 a power to derogate "in time of public emergency threatening the life of the Nation" is given to the contracting parties. Such an emergency exists here at the present time, and the measures which are proposed in the Emergency Bill are "strictly required by the exigencies of the situation" within the meaning of that Article. The Secretary General of the Council of Europe will be informed of the measures which it is hoped the Oireachtas will adopt and the reasons for them.

The measures we are proposing are necessary to meet and overcome the challenge thrown down by the recent outrages by an illegal armed organisation dedicated to the overthrow of the institutions of this State, and to enable the security forces to more effectively combat terrorism from whatever quarter. There is no question of the proposed measures being an attack on civil rights. They are measures to be enacted by the elected representatives of the people and represent the will of the people, in the dangerous circumstances I have just mentioned. If people obey the law they need not fear the effects of these measures. They are not directed at law abiding people but against those who want to destroy the institutions of State and the Irish nation.

The crimes perpetrated by the men of violence have brought discredit to the name of Irishmen throughout the world and death and damage to our own people. Our past has been devalued and our future threatened by their outrages. Our people have repudiated them repeatedly at the ballot box. Let us, the legislators repudiate them again and with special force by our assent to the measures before us today. Let the message go out clearly from here today that the Irish people, through their elected representatives, their democratic Government and their security forces are pledged to break and rid our country once and for all of this conspiracy of hate and evil. The Government stand over these measures in the interests of the public safety.

Tairgim:

Na litreacha "(a)" agus "(b)" a scriosadh agus na focail go léir i ndiaidh "(b)" a scriosadh agus an méid seo a leanas a chur ina n-ionad:

"ag féachaint don fhoréigean leanúnach i dTuaisceart Éireann agus do chor an dlí agus an oird agus na slándála sa Stát a bheith ag dul in olcas, go n-ordaíonn Dáil Éireann don Rialtas leor-phearsanra agus leor-acmhainní a sholáthar agus a úsáid chun sábháilteacht agus dea-rath gach uile shaoránach a áirithiú, agus gach beart is gá agus is iomchuí a dhéanamh chun treascairt a chomhrac agus a chloí mar aon le gníomhaíochtaí eagras neamh-dhleathach."

I move:

To delete the letters "(a)" and "(b)" and delete all the words after "(b)" and substitute therefor the following:

"having regard to the continuing violence in Northern Ireland and the deteriorating law and order and security situation within the State, Dáil Éireann directs the Government to provide and to utilise in full, adequate personnel and resources to ensure the safety and wellbeing of all the citizens, and to take all necessary and appropriate steps to combat and defeat subversion and the activities of unlawful organisations".

I propose to deal with the terms of this amendment at a later stage. The Emergency Powers Bill which depends on the adoption of this motion by the House and the Criminal Law Bill are designed against the wave of violence and subversive activities that have been witnessed in this part of the country and in the North over the past six or seven years. This party, in Government and in Opposition, have taken every action legally available to them, have used all the resources of the State available to them, and where necessary and where possible have strengthened these resources to combat this terrorism and subversion. We will support this Government in all reasonable and appropriate steps they will take to a similar end. It would seem from the tenor of the Taoiseach's remarks that the measures are directed mainly, if not only, at the Provisional IRA. Fianna Fáil condemn, denounce and reject the Provisional IRA and all of those who resort to violence or other illegal activities. They were designed to overthrow the institutions of our State or to create havoc and suffering in the divided part of our country. We denounce and reject them as the enemies of our people. We denounce and reject them as the enemies of the progress of our people, political, social and economic. We denounce them as the enemies of co-operation between the people of Ireland within the North, and between North and South. We denounce them as the enemies of the generally held national aspiration of the great majority of the Irish people towards the unity of our people.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

We are not opposed to any measures which we think are necessary to defend the State and protect the lives and liberty of our people. Our record in Government through the years shows clearly that we have always taken firm and decisive action to deal with any challenge from any quarter. We are not opposed to any reasonable actions which are needed in order to bring those responsible for the killing of the British Ambassador and of Miss Cooke, for the injury done to Mr. Cubbon and the driver, Mr. Brian O'Driscoll, to bring these people to justice and also those responsible for other acts of violence and to ensure that nothing will be left undone to bring home to them their culpability and the full rigours and penalties of the law.

We fully support the view that the guilty must be punished for their crimes and that they should know quite clearly that no party in this House supports their actions. I refer in particular to the assassination of the British Ambassador and Miss Cooke. We in this House are satisfied, irrespective of party, that we speak for the overwhelming majority of the Irish people when we say that such acts of violence do not inspire any ardent flames of patriotism but rather a sense of shame and disgust that the honourable tradition and good name of our people and country should be so debased.

It would seem from what the Taoiseach said that what has basically motivated the Government in introducing these measures was the assassination of the British Ambassador and Miss Cooke and the bombing of the courthouse in Green Street. That being so, we believe that these events alone do not justify the declaration of a state of emergency. We believe that a state of emergency declared to be in operation by the Houses of the Oireachtas will do nothing to prevent crimes of this nature or to ensure the detection and prosecution of those responsible for them.

Those responsible for that particular crime are, under existing legislation, if prosecuted and convicted by our courts, liable to the supreme penalty of the law, a penalty which exists in few other western countries even for the murder of members of the defence forces, police forces or diplomatic service. These measures will do nothing to improve that situation or improve the preventive and detection procedures and measures necessary. We suggest this can only be done by improving and augmenting our security forces and by securing from the public that degree of co-operation which will be necessary to aid—and that aid is very necessary—the authorities in the detection of these crimes and in the prevention of them also.

We have encouraged and supported the Government in increasing the strength of the Army and the Garda. This is a process on which we had embarked to a considerable extent before we left office and the Government have been carrying on that kind of policy to some extent, but I suggest not to a sufficient extent. In respect of expenditure directly relating to augmentation of our security forces, Defence or Garda, it is necessary to ensure that they have the kind of equipment necessary to make the prevention and detection of crimes as efficient as possible. They will have our support in any legislation or any financial proposals for that purpose.

In one respect, public opinion, support and co-operation are probably as important to the security forces as the supply of money and equipment and I should like to encourage more co-operation from the public, more use of the confidential phone. If I may repeat it the number is 757575 and it could not be more simple. I would encourage those who in any way are promoting the cause of peace and a rejection of the cause of those who commit violence. In this context I should like to pay special tribute to the women's peace movement which was begun recently in the North, or if not started recently was responsible at least for the massive peace marches that we have seen on television and read about in the newspapers and which have come to this part of the country also. This is the kind of effort that is necessary and is a form of assistance for our security forces but more so it is necessary for people who have information to come forward and give it. As they know, it can be given and received on a completely confidential basis.

We must establish a climate of peace in which people can get the opportunity, without the emotive overtones caused by violence and counter-violence, to know and understand each other's point of view and reconcile their differences where possible and this basis of peace and understanding can at last lead to the kind of political dialogue necessary to overcome the problems that are before us in relation especially to Northern Ireland—and certain problems in this part of the country—and, especially in relation to the North, to enable the politicians to engage in dialogue and help to ease people from the extreme, irreconcilable positions that many of them, unfortunately, have adopted.

It is one thing to oppose violence and support the Government in any action needed to end that violence but it is a far different matter to agree to what is proposed in this motion. Declaring a state of emergency is a serious action with serious consequences and should not be hastily decided on or lightly accepted by those whose responsibility it is to do so. No matter what the Taoiseach says it means suspending the constitutional rights and defences of the individual and, in the hands of the wrong Government it could open the door to a police state. I accept entirely that the Taoiseach and his Government have no intention of using arbitrarily the powers to be given under the Bill dependent on this motion but we have seen where a necessary motion declaring an emergency was effective for 37 years and several Governments have come and gone in that period. I do not know how long this motion will last; it will last until it is annulled by both Houses of the Oireachtas. Let us consider that it could exist over a period of 37 years again. Then any Government can literally do what it likes with a majority in the Dáil and Seanad irrespective of how oppressive legislation may be. I shall deal with that in more detail in a moment.

Is a state of emergency needed at this juncture? A state of emergency could only be justified if there were a prospect of a real and major threat to the State, if the threat were so serious as to justify the most extreme and desperate measures to ward off the threat. Is that the situation today? If it is, no real attempt has been made by the Taoiseach to tell us that the threat is so serious, apart from the two incidents to which he referred and which obviously motivated the bringing in of these measures. Grave though those incidents may have been, all the other matters to which he referred have been continuing—the murders, the bombings, the bank robberies—in our time and in their time and not until these two latest events have we been presented with this emergency legislation.

How will this resolution, the serious step of establishing a state of emergency, even accepting the Taoiseach's own definition—the comparatively mild measure which depends on acceptance of this motion, the extension of powers of detention without charge from 48 hours by a further five days, and we may have more to say about that—obviate a recurrence of these happenings? How can any Member say that these measures we are now asked to support in any way obviate such happenings? Surely everybody is aware that what is needed is more resources, more co-operation by the people with such resources, better means of prevention and better means of detection. How can these measures assist in any single one of these? I ask Members to put that question seriously to themselves. What answer will they come up with?

I will not make much of a point of this, but it was made on the occasion on which we introduced the 1972 Offences Against the State Bill. Members who were on these Opposition benches then and who are now Ministers in Government complained there had been no consultation with the Opposition prior to the introduction of that measure. I refer in particular to Deputy Garret FitzGerald, Minister for Foreign Affairs, and Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I will not rub their noses in the dust of quotations, but if it were necessary then, as they alleged it was, to consult at least the Leader of the Opposition in advance in regard to the extreme circumstances which occasioned the introduction of that measure, how much more necessary is it now to consult with the Opposition and give them some indication of the justification for the introduction of a far more serious measure, namely, the declaration, irrespective of the Constitution, of a state of emergency? I shall leave it at that. There was no consultation and even here today it has not been established to our satisfaction that these measures are necessary to meet the current situation.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I do not believe the security threat to the nation is so great or so serious as to warrant the suspension of our constitutional safeguards. If that is so, then we must look elsewhere to find the reasons for the appearance of this motion at this time. I honestly and sincerely think the reasons are primarily to mount another propaganda exercise on behalf of the Coalition Government.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I see no benefit to the people in this motion. I see no evidence that it supports any long-term policy or interest which we espouse. On the contrary, I believe this motion will, if passed, do damage to the people here in the Republic and damage to our Northern Ireland policy—that is, if this Government have any policy in that respect—and damage to Ireland internationally. Indeed, I have evidence it has already done so. I shall refer to that in a moment.

If there is need for this motion, if we have a situation so grave that it merits the declaration of a state of emergency, then that represents the final nail in the coffin of the Coalition's record as a Government. We have seen disaster follow disaster in their handling of economic and social issues, leaving the Government clinging desperately to their law and order image. With a state of emergency we should have a public admission that security has deteriorated to such an extent under their care that the State itself is under threat. That, in effect, is what this means and all their talk about law and order was just talk and, while they continued to talk, the situation was allowed to get out of control. This motion and the Bill which depends on its being passed is in my submission a flagrant example of window-dressing. It is an attempt by this Government to refurbish their declining image of a law and order Government, an image this Government have desperately tried to create for themselves. While they were engaged in this process of claiming to be the only guardians of law and order they were, either directly or by implication, denigrating the Fianna Fáil Government which preceded them and the party now in Opposition. I said repeatedly on this specific issue that the maintenance of law and order was the first responsibility of a Government and this Government had failed abjectly in that respect. I also said that law and order is no substitution for a policy on Northern Ireland.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Since the collapse of Sunningdale the Coalition Government have had no policy on Northern Ireland. They made no attempt to tackle the root cause of all the violence. On the contrary, when Fianna Fáil put forward and issued a reasoned statement in relation to Northern Ireland and to policy on the 29th October last, less than 12 months ago—on the eve of the collapse of the Northern Ireland Convention—a statement which called on the British Government to acknowledge that the ultimate unity of all the Irish people was the only long-term solution, a statement which proposed dialogue between all parties concerned, North and South and the United Kingdom, to discuss and try to overcome outstanding difficulties and so promote the climate that would facilitate a smooth transition, we were dubbed by Members of the Coalition Government, in the Mayo by-election in particular and subsequently, as Provos. I do not have to deny or denounce this kind of propaganda. We are not Provos; we have no use for them and never will have.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Speaking of the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement, all that now survives of it is the Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act. We were told that this was essential to help counter violence and put an end to subversive activities on both sides of the Border. We challenged it as being unconstitutional. The Supreme Court found it to be constitutional and so be it, although I am entitled to hold to my opinion still that it is not constitutional but I have no right. I am entitled to my opinion whether I express it here in the protection of this House or outside but I am bound by a decision of the Supreme Court and this Party are bound also. We have said that it was unworkable in practice. That has not yet been tested in practice or by the courts but we believe that it will be so found. The fact is that now after three months this measure which was so urgent and essential has not been used in one single instance——

Deputies

Hear, hear.

——to bring to justice the perpetrator of any illegal act North or South of the Border.

What about the Order made under the Offences Against the Persons Act of whatever year it was—1830; certainly over 100 years ago? What about that? Nothing was done about that either. These two measures introduced by the Coalition have the same characteristics as the motion now before the House—window dressing.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I want to remind everybody, for the benefit of those who may be inclined to overlook the fact and especially for the benefit of representatives of the British Press who have taken such an interest in these measures in recent days that it was we, in 1972, who introduced the Offences Against the State Act. It was the Members of the Government side, then in opposition, who opposed that measure. I say that because, having read leading articles and other articles in British newspapers, having listened to radio comment on the BBC and some of its allied stations— that is probably a wrong adjective— the impression was created, I will not say deliberately, I believe, inadvertently, that we, as an Opposition, were those who opposed the 1972 measures and that it was because of the bombs that went off in Dublin that we supported, and only then, supported the measure. The analogy was that because of the fire bombs released in Dublin in the last 36 hours or so this might have the same effect on us. I want to make that perfectly clear. It was we who introduced the special criminal courts. It was we who enacted that legislation which was denounced so much, opposed so vehemently by the parties now in government. I do not know that it will be necessary for me to refer to the statements specifically made by Members of the Government on the other side. May I take just one or two examples? As I have said I do not wish to rub noses in the dust

What about the arms trial?

If Deputy Griffin wants to draw me, I could dwell a long time on this.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Cooney, now Minister for Justice, said, in relation to that piece of legislation, on the 29th November, 1972, as reported in the Official Report, Volume 264, column 276 of that day:

... How can he——

he being the Minister for Justice, now Deputy O'Malley

——come into this Parliament and ask it to support a Bill the like of which can only be found on the statute books of South Africa? What has been wrong so far has not been any defect in the law; what has been wrong has been a defect in the will of the Executive charged with the enforcement of that law.

I do not have to look for the quotation; the exact words of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs then were that that Bill was a fraud. What is or who is the fraud? Even the Taoiseach opposed the Bill but not as vehemently as some of his then colleagues. Deputy Frank Cluskey, now Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare, said, and I quote from column 306 of the same volume:

The people are frightened but they may not be as frightened of the gunmen as they are of the powers being sought by the Government under a further extension of the Offences Against the State Act.

That was a mild extension compared with what the Government are now seeking. However, I do not want to use up all the quotable quotes; there will be speakers after me who will remind Members of them.

In fairness to Deputy Cooney, now Minister for Justice, not only did he implement that Bill as effectively as he could but he has now found it defective, found what he described as something that would not be found on the statute books of South Africa defective for our purposes here and even wants to bring in measures that would not be accepted in countries whose policies and traditions are far more objectionable to us than those of South Africa.

We, in Fianna Fáil, accept, as we must—the evidence bears in on us— that the law and order position has deteriorated generally in the sense that there is increasing crime, vandalism and hooliganism. The Coalition talk of law and order. Old people, indeed even young able-bodied people, are not only afraid to walk the streets at night. They are no longer secure from attack and robbery in their own homes. We would welcome and support firm action to improve law and order not only against the subversives and the men of violence but for the protection of our own people who have been ignored so badly in recent years.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

If it is for the protection of our people's homes, to secure their property and persons I want to repeat that declaring a state of emergency will do nothing to help. On the contrary, it is likely to make the situation worse. It will worsen the position in the real sense that the constitutional rights and safeguards of the individual against wrongful arrest and any other action will be removed. This in itself will not directly affect many people because the great majority of our people do not have any reason to come into contact with the forces of law and order. What will affect all the people is the growing sense of fear and insecurity which must accompany any genuine state of emergency as they have been told a threat exists. However, they have been told nothing substantial, other than what they know already, about the real nature of that threat. Instead, we have vague and ominous powers to create what really amounts to a police state and a state of emergency. If used, these powers could very seriously affect the freedom of our people.

If the Government want to act reasonably, responsibly and firmly in dealing with any real threat to law and order they will have our full and complete support. In this respect, I want to say that our opposition to this part of the motion seeking to declare a new state of emergency will necessarily imply opposition to the Emergency Powers Bill but that does not imply opposition to the Criminal Law Bill. On the contrary, we intend to support the Government fully, with one or two reservations that I may have time to mention later, in what they intend to do under the Bill. Apart from the reservations that I or someone else in this party will mention, we hope to be able to strengthen the Government's hands in some respects with regard to the provisions of that Bill.

I should like to make a few suggestions to the Government on how they can improve the situation generally, not only as affecting people who resort to violence or who try to subvert the State, but also affecting the ordinary criminals who are terrorising people throughout the country, not only in the built-up areas of Dublin, Cork and Limerick but throughout the country generally.

First, I would suggest to the Government that they start reopening Garda stations in rural areas to provide more immediate and direct contact between the people and their protectors. Not only would this provide a better flow of information about all suspicious activities, it would also help to avoid opening up a gulf between the Garda and the people. It will be said that in 1960 we started to implement the policy of closing stations in rural areas but it was a right and proper policy then. However, it is not right and proper at this time because of the escalation of crime throughout the country. The Government will get our support if they pursue this suggestion. Not only would it eliminate ordinary crime but it would eliminate much of the subversive activities which this motion seeks to eliminate.

I have good reason for what I am about to say regarding overtime for the Garda. The restriction on overtime, I believe at the direction of the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Justice or both, has had a serious effect on the detection of crime throughout the State.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I have personal knowledge of overtime not being allowed, where in order to police the areas gardaí from other divisions or from other stations within a division were brought into an area and, as a result, greater costs were incurred. If overtime is not allowed and if a garda is about to pursue investigations into a crime, whether petty or serious, he will cease such investigations at the finish of his day's work. By the time a new garda comes on the job the scent has gone cold.

I do not agree.

I know this happens even though Deputy L'Estrange says it does not happen. These are a few examples of the real and practical actions the Government could take to improve the law and order situation. They would do much to eliminate the threat to our future progress and the growing wave of crime in all its forms that is a cause of concern to the people.

In the opinion of many there is a second and even more serious threat to the security of our country at present and it is one of which the Government have not taken any effective action; instead, they have allowed it to become more and more serious in the last three years. I am referring to the growing level of unemployment, especially among the young, and the steady deterioration in the economy. This threat will not go away unless the Coalition bring in the famine ships once again.

The problem of finding work for our people and of clearing up the economic mess is one that must be tackled by this Government in Ireland and it must be tackled quickly. I want to make this relevant to the debate in case there may be doubt about its relevance, although I do not think there is any such doubt. This must be the greatest threat facing us and if we do not act quickly to find jobs for our young people the future will be grim for all of us. How long will it be before young people fall prey to radical and revolutionary doctrines if an alleged stable and responsible Government condemn them to a long stay on ever-increasing dole queues? Yet, the Coalition remain unmoved or, even worse, they try to pretend that it is not their fault, that it is not their responsibility to tackle that problem. For two years they sheltered behind the pretence that our unemployment problem and the other economic ills were all caused by the oil crisis, that any cure must come from some place outside this country. This alibi has been torn down by the evidence of other small countries that acted much more effectively to deal with the problem and by the increasing criticism of our EEC partners who have made it quite clear that the problem of unemployment and the curbing of inflation were primarily the responsibility of each member country. It is no more than a year since the grudging admission by the Coalition that they had a responsibility to act but immediately another temporary excuse was put forward. They told us it was necessary to prepare a plan before any action was agreed on. The plan was to have been ready by last Christmas, then in the spring, then in June, then in mid-summer—we are not sure what was meant by that—and, finally, in September. If the latest Press reports and rumours are correct we will not see any plan before October at the earliest. We do not particularly want to see the plan as such; we want clear, positive and decisive action to drag the economy back from the path towards disaster on which it has been set.

While the weeks and months have been slipping by the position has been getting worse, not better. In August there were 112,000 people unemployed, an appalling record figure, some 8,000 to 10,000 higher than the figures for this time last year.

That was the disastrous figure of the summer of 1975. We were told at that time that the worst was almost over and recovery was in sight. We have the Minister for Finance insisting that all the external commentators, the ESRI, the Federation of Irish Industry, the EEC and so on, are wrong and that he alone is right. Even if his figures are correct—he has still failed to produce them, to publish them or to publish the basis on which they are calculated—are they likely to be any better than the forecasts he has been making now for three years. Even if they are correct they still mean no improvement in employment next year. Therefore, with more young people pouring out of our schools and colleges it means even longer dole queues next year.

On a point of order, are we not dealing with the motion before the House?

(Interruptions.)

I know that Deputy Coogan and his colleagues find what I have to say distasteful. They are charged with the responsibility of dealing with the serious economic situation which amounts also to a crisis and amounts to an emergency in the country but about which nothing is being done.

We are not standing idly by.

I am sure the Leader of the Opposition realises the motion which is before the House does not permit a debate on the economic situation.

I am talking about the steps necessary to improve the security situation, to ensure that matters will become no worse and that we will not have young people open to radical and objectionable policies and influences by not being given work in their own country and that we will not walk into a worse disaster. The real fact is that even with the young people leaving school without work the full picture will not be disclosed because those are people who normally do not register and are not quoted in the unemployment statistics so that the figures will be far worse than the official statistics suggest.

The real disaster and the real emergency confronting us today is that we have the next generation on which the future health, vitality and progress of this nation depend being drained of their ideals, their hopes and their commitments to the country by the abject failure of this, let me say, pathetic Government, who have shown themselves incapable of a single worth-while action to deal with the real crisis.

It is not only in relation to employment and our economic vitality that nothing is being done but inflation is spreading and nothing is being done about it. I will shorten my remarks in this respect in deference to your ruling, but let me say that prices have risen by 80 per cent since this Government have come to power. The only other EEC country, which approaches even near the rate of price rises we have, is Italy. As we all know they have been without a Government for many months in the recent past, in fact over the past three years.

A Deputy

So have we.

The damage that this prices explosion is doing to our economy is every bit as devastating as the damage caused by the bombs, the bullets and by the subversion. Jobs are lost, firms are closed down and people, especially the older ones, become confused and bewildered. They develop a sense of hopelessness and powerlessness. This is all under the aegis of this Government. The people have lost confidence in their own ability to do anything to control this situation. This breakdown of monetary stability leads to loss of confidence in political institutions. This leads to a serious threat to our democracy. It leads to undermining of respect for and acceptance of authority. In Ireland's case the loss of confidence must be laid at the feet of the Government. The Government who should be taking steps to restore monetary stability are pretending that they are not to blame and can do nothing to help. We say they can act and should even now act. Other Governments have acted, other Governments have shown they can curb inflation. Other Governments in the EEC are saying, as I said, that it is our responsibility, that it is the responsibility of the Irish to deal with their own inflationary problems.

It is little wonder that there is reluctance among our people to invest and to create new jobs, which are necessary for our future economic and political wellbeing and stability. How will the state of emergency help this situation? Will it help to restore confidence? Will it encourage people to invest in the future? Will it persuade them that now is the time to start new ventures and undertake fresh commitments? Of course not. This damage to our economic fabric, already so tattered and threadbare, will be increased by the international repercussions of the declaration of the state of emergency at this time.

How will overseas businessmen react to that headline? Will they rush in here to invest? Will they think that all is well and that the situation is under control? Of course they will not when they realise that the Government have declared a state of emergency so serious that we have to suspend provisions of the Constitution. They will draw the conclusion that all is not well and that the position is now so bad that it warrants drastic and Draconian measures to put things right.

What can I say about the tourists? Will they fly to our shores, as we have been asking them to do or will they shun our shores? I have first-hand evidence from a leading hotelier in the country that the day the Government announced their intention to introduce this motion he had a telephone call from a German agency cancelling bookings that were made for the succeeding weeks. That is only one incident. I did not look for information about it but the day that announcement was made on the radio and in the Press this is what happened. In how many other cases has it happened?

One of the worst effects of this emergency legislation in my opinion will be its impact on the future development of North and South relations. I believe it will have a harmful and detrimental effect on our longer term policy for helping to bring together our divided communities. A written Constitution is a powerful and effective instrument for restoring and preserving the confidence and support of citizens and of guaranteeing their fundamental freedoms and rights. The Constitution is far more important and relevant in a divided community than in a relatively peaceful and calm atmosphere. Our community hold common views on major political questions. In such a community there are no difficult conflicts to resolve. Hence resort to constitutional rights is usually unnecessary but in a pluralist group with different values and traditions the need to assert and preserve those constitutional guarantees is far more urgent.

This week we have an example of such constitutional rights and their importance. The Strasbourg report, even though it has not yet been published officially, as we have read in the newspapers, shows that the Protestant of the Shankill no less than the Catholic of the Falls has need of recourse to a legal process which asserts and guarantees his basic human rights and dignity. Of what value will our Constitution be or what part can it play in helping to bring our Northern brethren into a more trusting and co-operative relationship with the people of the South? We should not be acting at this time, in relation to the Northern Ireland situation, to weaken and debase the value in any way of our Constitution. We should do the opposite. We should be working to extend and strengthen our constitutional arrangements so as to make them even more effective and more attractive as an instrument for political and social order.

I wish to deal now with the terms of the motion and of the amendment. In relation to the motion, if the Government wished to introduce the Emergency Powers Bill it was logical that they could not base it on the declaration of a state of emergency that was made as far back as 1939, a declaration which was associated with and related directly to the outbreak of the 1939-45 World War. Therefore, if they wish to relate this Emergency Powers Bill to any state of emergency it is reasonable technically to relate it to what they purport to be a state of emergency arising out of current circumstances. I can understand their thinking on those lines but the fact remains that the state of emergency declared in 1939 has been ineffective in so far as it related to Irish legislation. These Acts had effect only for limited periods—I think they were renewed each year and since the 2nd September, 1946, the date on which the last of the Emergency Powers Acts ceased to have effect, that declaration of a state of emergency has had no practical effect for this country.

There may be the impression abroad that the powers contained in section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, depended on the declaration of the then state of emergency. That was not the case. The legislation stands on its own and if this motion were never introduced and if the Bill which depends on it were never introduced, the power of the 1939 Act would still subsist and be available. It provides for detention without charge for a period of up to 48 hours.

It is my contention that a declaration of a state of emergency at this time for the purpose of enacting a Bill of, as the Taoiseach said, very limited application, is not warranted in all the circumstances. The only reason for this state of emergency being declared is to enable the suspension of the Constitution so as to facilitate the passage of this Bill. The effort is merely a matter of taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

I shall not go into the detail of the legislation except to say that in the first instance it appears to us, from the legal advice we have received, that there is a defect in the Long Title. Obviously, the Government decided advisedly to use in the Long Title the term "an armed conflict in respect of which each of the Houses of the Oireachtas has adopted a resolution...". I understand that this defect may be put right by way of an amendment by using the expression "in time of war or armed conflict". I can understand why the Government did not wish to include the phraseology "in time of war" but even to use the words "armed conflict" to describe what is going on in Ireland is to give to the Provisionals and the other paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland a status which they have always been anxious to claim but which democratic politicians have not been prepared so far to allow them. Perhaps the term was adopted from an off-the-cuff remark by a former British Home Secretary who referred to a state of war between the British and the IRA. The use of the term gives to these organisations I have referred to a status that is unwarranted and undesirable but which undoubtedly will please them.

There is a question I should like to put to the Taoiseach and I trust that it will be dealt with either by him or by subsequent speakers on the Government side if it is their intention to speak. Since the powers which are incorporated in this Bill appear to be so limited, since the vehicle for the implementation of the Bill is so dangerous and so ominous, it is necessary that we know as soon as possible whether the Government have any intention of introducing other measures which will not be subject to the sanction of the courts, not only in their provisions and implementation but in the administrative procedures that can be carried out under them. Is there something else in prospect? If there is we should know because once this resolution is passed, if it is passed, the Government with their majority, can bring in any kind of legislation regardless of how Draconian or how repressive it is. When one refers to the text of the Bill the powers being conferred seem rather slight. In the first instance the Bill confers certain powers relating to arrest and questioning but these are powers which the Garda appear to have already although they are being extended from two days to seven days. In other words, a person can be detained in custody for seven days without being charged. However, as I have indicated already, the provisions of section 30 of the 1939 Act still subsist. Under that Act a person can be detained without being charged for up to 48 hours so that, in effect, between that Act and the Bill before us which provides for an extension of five days to the existing 48 hours a person could be detained in custody for a period of nine days without a charge being brought and, possibly, without any intention to bring a charge. In effect, this is a form of internment.

I ask all members on the Government side of the House to weigh heavily what they are doing and to ask themselves whether this measure conforms with their consciences and convictions. Is it their opinion that the present situation warrants the proposed measures? It appears rather strange to declare a state of national emergency for the purpose of extending from two days to seven days or even nine days the time during which the Garda can hold a suspect for questioning. This leads one to the suspicion that the declaration of the state of national emergency is either a piece of window dressing or, alternatively, that much more far-reaching and drastic legislation is in contemplation, because, as I have said already, once a period of national emergency has been declared the Government are entitled to pass any legislation they please provided such legislation is expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or, as in this case, in time of armed conflict; and thereafter nothing in the Constitution can be invoked to invalidate that legislation or anything done or purported to be done in pursuance of such legislation. That is one serious aspect of the Bill which should be stressed, that once a state of national emergency has been declared the Act itself cannot be challenged in court provided it is expressed to be for the purpose of securing public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war. As I said, too, not only the Act itself will be immune from judicial scrutiny but also all administrative acts done or purporting to be done in pursuance of it. Therefore, irrespective of how this debate proceeds, we will want from the Government an indication of what else they propose to do, and certainly we will want far more cogent reasons than those put forward by the Taoiseach before we can in any way support a motion of such a serious nature.

It has been suggested that this legislation is a prelude to a general election. We would welcome a general election very soon. I want to say to this Government that, with all their well-known and proven capacity for propaganda, with their flair for publicity, they will not be able to hide from the public the real crisis, the real emergency that persists in this State, and, above all, they will not frighten the Irish electorate into voting for them by this measure.

I intervene mainly in order to take up a couple of points made by the Leader of the Opposition and to try to ensure that a wrong impression is not created by these remarks in the minds of the press or public. The theme which the Leader of the Opposition harped on was the theme that, as from the moment when this item of business passes through the Oireachtas, this State will be in a quite different and quite new situation compared with the situation it is in at this moment, was in yesterday and has been for the last 37 years.

Deputy Lynch repeatedly said that they were declaring an emergency which was a frightening and very grave thing to do, that on that declaration there depended a blanket or umbrella power under cover of which the Government would be able —he was fair enough to say that he did not accuse this Government of having any such intention—but the wrong kind of Government would be able to introduce repressive, Draconian, absolutely intolerable, inhuman legislation. It is true that the House is being asked to replace one old resolution with a new one, and it is true that the House is being asked to make a declaration of an emergency of a new kind, but it is not true —and, in response to what Deputy Lynch said, I want to make it plain beyond any possibility of misunderstanding—that the quality of the legal situation in which we are going to be if this item passes is different from the legal situation which we are in at this moment or have been in at any moment since 2nd September, 1939.

It is vital that anyone who is interested in understanding this, as distinct from people who are interested only in blackening the democratically-elected Government of this country, should put their minds to this and realise that we will be in no different situation. Although the Second World War has been over for 31 years, the emergency created by a resolution of this House on 2nd September, 1939, and by resolution of the Seanad of the same date, did not end with the Second World War. The reason it did not end with the Second World War and the reason it is still there is that legally it is given an artificial term of survival. Whether or not the Second World War had ever ended, even if there had been two or three further world wars in the meantime, that emergency is still there this minute because the Constitution declares in black and white the length of time for which that emergency is to continue. It is to continue until— I quote article 28.3.3º—

such time after the termination of any war, or of any such armed conflict as aforesaid, or of an armed rebellion, as may elapse until each of the Houses of the Oireachtas shall have resolved that the national emergency occasioned by such war, armed conflict, or armed rebellion has ceased to exist.

In other words, in the eye of the law the emergency which genuinely existed at the beginning of September, 1939, still exists, and whatever could have been done on 3rd September, 1939, and was done by this House and by the Seanad, could still be done today under the cover of the same resolution. It is vital that the House should not be misled about that and that nobody outside should misunderstand it.

Deputy Lynch did say—fairly enough again—that they accepted the logic of the Government in seeking a new resolution which accorded on its face more with existing realities than one which was 37 years old. It was a logical way for the Government to approach it, but it was not legally necessary. There is no court in this country, in my belief—although one is running a risk in making predictions about the courts—that could possibly have looked behind legislation introduced and passed by this House purporting to depend on the 1939 resolution and suspending rights normally enjoyable in respect of personal liberty or any other kind of right, because that emergency in terms of the Constitution is still there and legislation passed by reference to that emergency is still armour-plated and cannot be scrutinised for its constitutionality by any court in this country.

That is an illogical and irrational position. I have said that and I have written it, but I want to say this to the House, that on some occasions during the terms of office of Fianna Fáil Governments, the Taoiseach for the time being was asked in this House whether he did not think it was now apposite to say publicly and formally that the 1939 emergency had ended. I have not got the reference to hand; I did not anticipate dealing with this point because I did not think Deputy Lynch was going to make it; however, I believe Deputy Lynch was one of them but most certainly his predecessor, the late Deputy Lemass, was a Fianna Fáil Taoiseach who was asked here in the 1960s—I believe about 1961 or 1962—whether he would not now consider rescinding the 1939 emergency resolutions and the reply he gave, I think, from memory, to Deputy Tully, was that in view of the present very unsettled international situation, this would not be an appropriate moment to introduce such a rescinding resolution.

On 6th December, 1960, according to his own book.

That is what I remember. I am glad to see that the Deputy has a reliable source.

Two years before that Deputy McGilligan said the same thing when he was a Minister.

That is quite true. The resolution also survived two terms of Coalition Government and it was regarded tacitly by all sides as being a convenient and easy means whereby if a Government felt themselves seriously threatened, seriously obliged in the interests of the people to take some unusual step which might not be constitutionally impregnable they could do so under cover of this resolution. That was tacitly understood by all Irish Governments long years after the second world war had ended.

I make that point—I hope I have not made it excessively—in order to put into perspective what Deputy Lynch has said in regard to the emergency we are creating. There will not be any difference in the quality of the legal system here tomorrow from the quality it had yesterday—none whatsoever. It is just that there will be a little more logic and reason in this emergency resolution under which the people will be living tomorrow as distinct from that under which they lived yesterday and are still living today. It is absolutely vital that that point should be made plain and that those who have enough goodwill to grasp it would be given every opportunity to do so.

The Leader of the Opposition said that legislation which depended on the 1939 resolution had long since lapsed. That is true. He has got a source-book in front of him which will give him the reliable date for the lapse of that legislation. I cannot remember it offhand, but I believe it was some time in 1946, but the fact that the legislation passed under cover of the 1939 resolution has not itself been effective for 30 years does not make the resolution any less effective. That resolution is still there, and I believe this House might be acting illogically and in a way which would enable fun to be poked at it by academics writing theses on the subject—certainly it might be doing that—but it would be completely within the law in enacting the Emergency Powers Bill which is now before us under cover, not of the resolution moved by the Taoiseach, but under the resolution moved by the late Éamon de Valera in 1939. The other point made by Deputy Lynch that I wanted to deal with arises from his expressions in regard to the suspension of constitutional safeguards.

Again, it is important that a simple expression like that which comes easily to the mind would not pre-empt and dominate people's thinking or headlines. Constitutional safeguards in this country are not being suspended. No normal constitutional safeguard of any kind whatsoever is being interfered with or suspended except in so far as it may be prejudiced—and I only say "may" because it has not been established yet, although I agree it might be a serious question—it has not been established yet that holding somebody for seven days without trial is necessarily contrary to the Constitution; I believe it very likely is, but it has not yet been so established—but in order to try to avoid that question, that particular area of activity, namely preventive arrest and questioning of persons for that number of days, has been or is sought to be withdrawn from the normal process of constitutional review and control. But in no other way are constitutional safeguards being interfered with or suspended. There is still habeas corpus, there is still the rule of law, there is still the ordinary system of trial. There are still all the other constitutional safeguards in regard to association, in regard to assembly, in regard to religious and political belief, in regard to freedom of the Press and so forth. It is not true, and I appeal to Members on the far side who may speak hereafter to agree with me that it is not true that anything in the nature of a general suspension of constitutional safeguards is taking place or that the Constitution itself is in a general way being placed in hock. That is not so.

All that is happening at the moment—and nothing more can happen without the consent of this House —is that in respect of this single matter, namely holding without charge for a larger number of days than has been possible up to this, the right to challenge on constitutional grounds the legality of the measure which effects this is being taken away. That safeguard certainly is being suspended; but it is only one out of the infinite number of constitutional safeguards of which a State like this is made up, so that although I naturally cannot control and do not wish to control what people say about this, I would be anxious that that point would be clearly and plainly made.

There were other points of a general kind which I had aimed to make and may still make in the debates on one or other of the two Bills. I do not wish to hold the House up for them at the moment. I merely wished at this stage to speak in an improvised sort of way, because I had not expected to hear the points made by Deputy Lynch. I wanted to make my points briefly. If I may recapitulate before I finish, first of all there will not be an essential difference in the conditions of our legal system once this resolution has been passed compared with the quality and conditions of our legal system at this moment and, secondly, what is being effected or sought to be effected here is not a general suspension or general qualification or the hanging of a general question mark over all constitutional safeguards but merely the withdrawal in respect of one particular matter of constitutional safeguards in the sense of control by the force of the legislation which effects this measure.

It is quite obvious from the opening remarks of the Taoiseach that the case which he had to make on behalf of the Government was indeed an extremely poor one. Indeed the Taoiseach's contribution and that of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach have only strengthened my belief that we are here today in Dáil Éireann, as are our colleagues in Seanad Éireann, as a result of an over-reaction by the Government arising from the recent assassinations and the explosion in the courthouse in Green Street. I think that even the Taoiseach and the members of his Government were advised very recently by members of their own party at Béal na Bláth that they should be extremely careful to make sure that they did not overreact to the incidents which I have just mentioned.

Indeed, from the case made by the Taoiseach, the view can be held that if proper policing was in operation, the incident in Green Street might never have occurred. There has been no statement by the Government or by the Minister for Justice as to the breakdown of the security arrangements for the protection of our courts.

If one is to be in a position to give an opinion one can and must only rely on what one reads in the newspapers about that incident, but it appeared that some person was or some persons were allowed through whatever security cordon was supposed to exist there with a haversack and that that haversack contained explosive materials which in effect helped to bring about the explosion and the disruption of the courts. This House is due an explanation by the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice of how the incident occurred and why there was a breakdown in the security arrangements in the protection of that court.

That is one of the reasons given by the Taoiseach as to why we must now have a declaration of a state of emergency, the other reason being the recent assassinations. Again, while we all condemn those who assassinated the unfortunate people who died, and injured the others, while we all abhor those deeds, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice have a duty and a responsibility to this House and the nation to make known in detail the so-called security operations that were there for the protection of those people.

In the absence of any statement by the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice it has been left open to speculation from what one reads in the papers, hears on the radio or sees on television that the road on which this unfortunate incident occurred was not policed as it should have been, that it was a dangerous section of the road, from a security point of view. It is understood that people were seen masquerading as ESB workers or workers in another public body in that area a day or two prior to the assassination. If this is so, I believe that that is not policing as it should be done. It is not proper policing for the protection of important people, such as the British Ambassador who by the very nature of his job is a prime target for subversives. I believe the Government have failed miserably here and are trying to provide window dressing to cover their failure.

The Parliamentary Secretary tried to say that if this resolution is passed the declaration of emergency will not change the situation tomorrow from the situation which existed yesterday because of the declaration of emergency which is in operation since the late 1930s or early 1940s. Let me tell the Parliamentary Secretary and people in his party and the Labour Party that the mere fact that they publicised their intention to declare a state of emergency here has done untold harm.

For instance, look at the IDA. How can they try to sell this country as a place where people can come in comfort and safety to set up businesses and provide employment? It was hard enough for Bord Fáilte up to now to sell this country as a place where people could come to enjoy a holiday and a rest. In my view the scare for which the Government were responsible was completely unnecessary. As Deputy Lynch said, if those who blew up Green Street or assassinated the people mentioned had been detected, they could have been brought before our courts, convicted and sentenced to be hanged if the courts so decided, without any need for this legislation.

By recalling the Dáil and the Seanad today the Government have done great harm to this country. They have created a panic situation. If the resolution in the Taoiseach's name is passed in this House today and a similar resolution is passed by the Seanad, the Seanad will not sit again until these two Bills have been dealt with in this House. The Criminal Law Bill, 1976, is fairly long and will not go to the Seanad this week and it is very unlikely that it will reach the Seanad next week. The Seanad should have been recalled in the normal way. This would not have added to the panic which the Government created for their own political reasons.

In considering the resolution now before the Dáil and the attitude this party decided to take to it, we had to consider the wording of Article 28.3º of the Constitution which provides that:

Nothing in this Constitution shall be invoked to invalidate any law enacted by the Oireachtas which is expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion, or to nullify any act done or purporting to be done in time of war or armed rebellion in pursuance of any such law. In this sub-section "time of war" includes a time when there is taking place an armed conflict in which the State is not a participant but in respect of which each of the House of the Oireachtas shall have resolved that, arising out of such armed conflict, a national emergency exists affecting the vital interests of the State and "time of war or armed rebellion" includes such time after the termination of any war, or of any such armed conflict as aforesaid, or of an armed rebellion, as may elapse until each of the Houses of the Oireachtas shall have resolved that the national emergency occasioned by such war, armed conflict, or armed rebellion has ceased to exist.

It is clear that the Constitution provides only two occasions on which the constitutional rights and freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution may be suspended for the protection and security of the State, that is, in time of war or armed rebellion. The extending of the phrase "time of war" to include an armed conflict in which the State is not a participant was brought in by the first amendment to the Constitution Act brought in to cover the position which obtained by reason of the Second World War.

It is clear that for any emergency legislation to be brought in and to enjoy the immunity of Article 28.3 there must exist a time of war or armed rebellion. The legislation which is sought to give such constitutional immunity must have expressed in the Long Title "of such legislation that such time of war or armed rebellion exists". It is my submission that the phrase "armed conflict" is a mere ingredient of the term "time of war". I believe this is fundamental to this issue being debated here today and it is fundamental in particular to the bona fides and credibility of the Government who seek to bring in such resolutions of emergency legislation.

If the Government are serious in stating that such state of emergency exists and that the legislation they propose to introduce and pass subsequent upon such state of emergency is necessary and vital legislation, the first and most vital thing they should do is to ensure that their own legislation is in order and will stand up. It seems arguable that by using the formula they are now using this legislation may not stand up and that a court may yet take the view that the Emergency Powers Bill, if enacted, does not enjoy the immunity of Article 28.3 by reason of the failure of the Government to spell out in the Long Title that it is an Act expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion.

I appreciate that if this resolution is passed by both Houses we will be dealing with the Emergency Powers Bill within the next couple of days. I do not propose to deal with the contents of that Bill now but the Long Title and the contents of that Bill are of considerable significance when we seek to assess the motivation and credibility of the Government in introducing this resolution.

If the Government seriously say that arising out of armed conflict in Northern Ireland a national emergency exists affecting the vital interests of the State and consequent on that that it is necessary to introduce emergency legislation entitled in such a way that certain constitutional rights and protections will be suspended or become inoperable, one would assume that the first priority of such a Government would be to ensure that there is no flaw in their legislation and the manner in which they seek to suspend constitutional rights will not be queried, possibly successfully queried, by the first person taken into custody under the legislation which is proposed subsequent to this resolution being passed.

It would seem probable and likely, when this was being drafted by the parliamentary draftsman, that he would turn back to precedents, namely the Emergency Powers Act, 1939, and the amending Emergency Powers Act, 1940, and the resolution which was passed by these Houses prior to the 1939 Act because in both these cases, particularly the 1939 Emergency Powers Act, any draftsman would have immediately adverted to this point in as much as, while it was necessary to pass an amendment to the Constitution, to include a time in which an armed conflict, the State not being a party to it was taking place, as coming within the definition of the phrase "a time of war".

The draftsmen then would be clear that it was still necessary in the 1939 Act to set out that that particular Emergency Powers Act was an Act to make provision for securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war and they did not solely make use of the amendment to the Constitution which they had passed the previous day. This being as it is, it must be clearly and logicaally assumed that here there is a deliberate policy decision on the part of the Government not to use the phrase "in time of war" in the Long Title of the Bill. We are entitled in the absence of any suggestion from the Government as to why this should be to wonder why. It seems likely in the first instance that the Government have shied away from the phrase "in time of war" lest in some way they give recognition to the IRA as a body of persons who are conducting a war rather than as a subversive group of people. It may be that they do not want the word to go abroad that the Irish Parliament representing the Irish people has declared that within our jurisdiction there exists a time of war. The motivations are immaterial. What is material is that the Government are prepared to potentially sacrifice the immunity conferred on emergency legislation by Article 28 (3) of our Constitution, for some political motivation of their own which has not been made clear to this House or to the people of the country. If this is so, and there seems to be no other logical answer to it, it consolidates our view that the entire operation of a resolution declaring a state of emergency, and the legislation which is proposed consequent on that state of emergency resolution, is an entire window dressing operation, the motivation for which is surely political.

The second possibility in introducing this resolution and the legislation consequent upon it is that a totally unnecessary declaration of a state of emergency in this jurisdiction, tied to the events in Northern Ireland, and the introduction of legislation which this House may be considering later this week, is an attempt by the Government to suggest that Fianna Fáil, which is the largest political party in this House and which represents the greatest number of electors in this country, is in some way soft on subversives or is in some way not prepared to support the Government of the day in any legislation necessary and desirable to combat criminal activities and to put forward the suggestion that Fianna Fáil, when returned to power in the next election would in some way be unable or unwilling to deal with criminal elements and unlawful organisations within our society. If this is wholly or, as I believe, partially the motivation of the Government in introducing these measures not alone is it a despicable performance on the part of the Government but it is the act of a Government that is totally unfit to rule. They are unfit to rule if they are prepared to use matters as serious as the liberty of the individual, freedom of expression, to play around with the operations of the Garda and the Army, and necessarily the courts of this country, purely for the purpose of what they see as a potential political advantage.

Going back to 1971 and proceeding from there until the time of the last general election when there was a change of Government and contrasting the actual performance of the Fianna Fáil Government on matters of security and the maintenance of the rule of law with the performance of this Government since 1973, a very different picture emerges. In 1971 the then Minister for Justice, Deputy Desmond O'Malley, had the law in relation to firearms changed in case there might be some doubt that the possession of firearms intended to endanger life might be held to be confined to an intention to endanger life. Guns, pistols and rifles other than sporting shot-guns and .22s were taken in at that time by the Fianna Fáil Government. We also controlled the places and conditions in which explosive substances might be kept in a most rigorous way. We completely banned various substances which were not in themselves explosive but which had various chemicals in them which combined with other materials could be used to create explosive substances. We banned those substances at that time knowing that they were of use to the agricultural community.

Nobody was allowed to import, retain, sell or distribute them. In so far as the security of this State was concerned or the maintenance of the public peace within this jurisdiction was affected in any way by what are known as Border incidents, we were sufficiently confident at all times about the operation of our security forces on Border areas that on several occasions, and notably in September, 1971, Deputy Lynch as Taoiseach on behalf of the Government at that time felt sufficiently proud of the operation of the security forces on the Border that the British Government were invited to join with us in asking the United Nations Observer group to send an observer to the Border. This request was rejected by the United Kingdom Government. It is of relevance that we were sufficiently happy with the way we had our security forces organised and deployed in that area that we were content to have an outside and impartial agency observe the manner in which we conducted security along that territorial boundary.

In May, 1972, the Special Criminal Court was set up by proclamation by the Fianna Fáil Government and has sat continually since. In order to ensure that the court would sit during what are normally vacation times for courts in this country, and in order to ensure that cases coming within the ambit of the court would be speedily dealt with, in July, 1972, the number of judges allocated to that court was increased from three to seven so that at any given time there would be two courts or three judges sitting simultaneously. In the autumn of 1972 we introduced and passed the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act which was mentioned here this afternoon. I have no doubt that I can leave it to my colleague, Deputy O'Malley, to deal with the attitude of the members of the Government, who were in opposition then, to Deputy O'Malley as Minister for Justice and, to the Fianna Fáil Party, as the party promoting the legislation which gave effect to the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act.

Since the institution of the Special Criminal Court in May, 1972, and the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act in November/December of the same year these two matters combined—the existence of the Special Criminal Court and the offence of membership of the IRA and the manner in which such offence could be proved—have been the mainstay of legal action that could be taken against subversive groups or persons. The present position in relation to the Special Criminal Court is that since this Government have come into power, as far as I am aware, there have never been two special courts sitting at the same time, although the number of judges allocated to these courts is still seven.

For a Government who now allege a state of emergency to exist and claim that legislation that I find at least partly undesirable to be necessary to cope with it, it should be noted that the backlog of cases in the Special Criminal Court is now almost two-and-a-half years old. If this Government were serious in their protestations in relation to these measures today they would at least ensure that the existing processes of the Special Criminal Court were properly utilised to deal with cases that normally come before it and are sent to it by the Attorney General or the Director of Public Prosecutions. As was mentioned by the Leader of my Party, we had a similar flurry of pretended activity by the Government when they introduced the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act. Nothing has been heard of that Act since it was cleared by the Supreme Court.

I believe that the laws that exist are sufficient to meet any state of emergency that may arise in the foreseeable future. This is a phony state of emergency and unnecessary laws are being proposed to the House if this state of emergency is declared by the House today, tomorrow or this week. It is phony partly because it is stated to arise from armed conflict taking place in Northern Ireland and yet the motivation of the present package of legislation seems to have been the tragic death or murder of the British Ambassador. I repeat that the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice should make a clear statement on the breakdown of security which occurred and which allowed this unfortunate event to happen which with the other incident was quoted by the Taoiseach as having urged him to introduce the legislation and seek this declaration of an emergency.

Later, I shall deal when the occasion arises, with the two pieces of legislation in the Government package and I only refer to them now to say that the powers that it is proposed to give to the Garda and the Army are not, as far as I am aware, powers that are thought necessary or desirable by the Garda. If the Government were seriously concerned about what they like to call law and order they would have ensured that the Garda who have served the nation well since their inception and who naturally have a justifiable pride in their own ability to detect crime were given the proper support required from the Government, and if that had been done that force would be very happy and content today. That they are not happy and content is due in great measure to this Government—and to the Minister for Justice in particular—because of their deliberate failure to see that the Garda were paid overtime for work they were doing outside the normal course of their duties and their normal hours of work and who have caused considerable dissension within the force by their methods of promotion in that force.

I am not merely concerned about illegal or subversive activities; I am just as concerned about epidemics of housebreaking and larceny which are taking place throughout the country and are no longer confined to large towns or cities but are spreading into the countryside. These crimes of violence have nothing to do with any armed conflict in Northern Ireland or elsewhere and none of the remedies suggested by the Government in their legislation package will do anything to remedy the existing situation. If the Government had given the Garda the resources in money and manpower that they required this alleged state of emergency within our jurisdiction would never have arisen.

I do not trust this Government or the members of it or the Minister for Justice. I distrust the motives which I believe are behind the proposing of this state of emergency. I distrust the motives behind the Bills which will follow if this motion is passed. I think I have good ground for distrusting the Government motivation in this regard. I believe that when we consider the provisions of the Emergency Powers Bill and the Criminal Law Bill the suspect motivation of the Government in regard to the measures proposed in these two Bills becomes even more sinister. The Government may well succeed in creating an emergency by the passage of this resolution and these two Bills. If they do it will be because of this package of legislation and for their own reasons which have nothing to do with security of the State or of people's homes and of persons within the State but because they wish to use as a conditioning process on the Irish public that such a state of emergency exists. They may succeed in achieving that ignoble end but I do not believe that they will succeed in their other and principal motivation which is in some way to convince the people that this Government and they alone are competent or prepared to deal with matters that have become known as matters of law and order.

I believe that if we had had proper policing the two incidents which seemingly motivated the Taoiseach and the Government to introduce this emergency legislation would not have happened. If we had had proper policing we would not have had helicopters entering our prison yards and effecting the escape of prisoners. We would not have our mail trains held up and robbed. It transpires afterwards that there was no garda on the particular train that I could not talk about in this House for many weeks afterwards. The statement issued at the time was to the effect that we do not put gardaí on all the trains. I do not know who was responsible for that statement or who was trying to cover up but if you do not put a garda on a train carrying over £250,000 on what amount of money on a train do you put a guard?

If there was proper policing on the ground we would not have the degree of subversiveness that we have at present but, as I have said in this House on every opportunity in the past 18 months or so, we have not sufficient policemen on the ground. They are not meeting the people or able to hear the people. The man on the beat is a thing of the past.

The gardaí themselves in a communication to the Commissioner, a copy of which was sent to the Minister, say—and I have said it here on every possible occasion—that many a squad car is anchored to the footpath at night because there is no money for petrol for it or there is not a garda to be paid to drive the car to do his work during the night. As regards domestic security the Garda themselves have said that parts of Dublin city, and O'Connell Street in particular, are no-go areas. Those responsible for the editorial in the Garda Representative Body magazine some months ago invited the Minister to go with them on a tour of Dublin city after dark to see the situation for himself. That suggestion was rejected by the Minister; the contents of the editorial were said not to represent or reflect the Garda viewpoint. May I tell the Taoiseach—I am glad he is here this afternoon—that I have had innumerable letters of congratulation from members of the Garda for exposing the situation as it is to the public and urging that everything possible be done to remedy it.

On the matter of security, protecting the institutions of the State, protecting lives and property, had the Government allowed the Garda to do their work as they should do it and not cut back on resources available to them—resources we will give them when they want them in the hope that they will stamp out unlawful organisations—had the Garda been allowed to do the work they wanted to do there would be no need for the Taoiseach and his Government to come in here today and ask for a declaration of emergency, an action which is causing a scare throughout the country and doing immense harm to the country internationally.

In considering the recall of the Dáil, as indicated some weeks ago, and this motion the first thing anyone asks himself is why should we declare at this point of time a state of emergency. The reason why the Government want to declare a state of emergency it quite clear. They want to do certain things that are not constitutional. That is the obvious reason. In 1972 members of this Government, who were then in Opposition, ranted and raved against the proposals of the Fianna Fáil Government in the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Bill and one would naturally expect from this Government now an explanation as to the need for such a departure from the normal course of justice available at the moment.

No effort has been made to justify their action. They have made no attempt to show that the laws which they said so vehemently in 1972 were totally and completely adequate to deal with the situation then obtaining, and the situation has not changed all that much since then, are today in some way defective. Their opposition to the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Bill in 1972 can be quoted. It is only fair that those who so vehemently opposed that measure should now justify their change of mind, a change of mind which will wipe out the constitutional rights of the people by declaring a state of emergency in circumstances in which such a declaration is not merited. These rights are safeguarded in Article 28 of the Constitution. I trust we will have from the Minister for Justice, Deputy Cooney, the Minister for Finance, Deputy R. Ryan, and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Dr. Cruise-O'Brien, a statement during the course of this debate explaining why they are now satisfied we are in an emergency situation. There is, of course, no real emergency other than an emergency not covered by the Constitution, an economic emergency. There surely is an economic emergency.

At column 315 of Volume 264 of the Official Report of 29th November, 1972, Deputy R. Ryan, now Minister for Finance, had this to say on the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Bill:

If I were as convinced as Deputy Carter that this could deal with the illegal organisations and not interfere with the rights of the individual I would be very enthusiastic. I am convinced that this Bill is rich fertiliser for anarchy and will stimulate illegal activity and further rioting in the streets, maiming people and damaging property ...

There was a certain amount of truth in that as has been demonstrated by happenings since then. His forebodings have proved to be correct. The oppressive measures before the House justified his forebodings. At that time the argument was that such measures were unnecessary because the law was there but was not being implemented. That was their accusation.

Deputy Cooney moved an amendment and that amendment was to the effect:

That Dáil Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill on the ground that it contains matter which is unnecessary and excessive and which is repugnant to the basic principles of justice and liberty and the long-established fundamental rights of citizens.

I shall not quote Deputy Cooney in extenso out of compassion for Members. I shall content myself with quoting just a few extracts. At column 276 Deputy Cooney said:

The Minister complains that the present law is inadequate. He fastens on one particular aspect of the present law to justify this sweeping measure. He makes the case that it is difficult to prove membership of an unlawful organisation. If he were making this case a fortnight ago one might have some sympathy with him, but events have caught up with the Minister's predicament, or alleged predicament and, over the weekend, we saw that the security forces of the State had captured what I might call a very big fish indeed. We saw that that person was convicted of membership of an unlawful organisation. I ask the Minister how can he now come into this Parliament and suggest that the law is defective, or that the law is in some way lacking? How can he come into this Parliament and ask it to support a Bill the like of which can only be found on the statute books of South Africa? What has been wrong so far has not been any defect in the law; what has been wrong has been a defect in the will of the Executive charged with the enforcement of that law.

The Minister for Justice must accept that he does fully back up the Government in their new proposals. Is it not only fair at this stage, particularly in the rather critical post he holds, that in view of what he had to say in regard to the adequacy of the law even before the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1972, became law when he held in a very definite way that the laws were adequate and that if there was a defect it lay in the lack of will on the part of the then Government to put them into force, he tell us if he has changed those views? Are we not entitled that he should come into this House and tell us why he has changed those views, tell us why, in spite of the addition to our statutes of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1972, he considers now that the laws are not adequate to deal with any eventuality that has arisen so far?

Does the Minister for Justice feel that his Government have not got the will, as he accused the Fianna Fáil Government in 1972, of utilising the laws available to them? He would have more right to make that charge today than he had then because the laws available to the present Government are much more rigorous than were those available to the Government of the day when he went on record in that debate.

There is a further snippet here which is also relevant in so far as the Minister for Justice, then Deputy Cooney, saw the situation as it stood then. He talks of the Minister—that, I take it, is the Minister for Justice— and says, at column 277 of Volume 264 of the Official Report of 29th November, 1972:

... He has not shown——

that is, the Minister

——in the detail required by the exigencies of the situation, how the existing law is ineffective. It is not defective and I propose to give this House numerous instances of breaches of that law which have gone ignored by the Government.

In that debate I should like to refer to what the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, then Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, said in relation to what the then Deputy Cooney had said at column 277; what he said about the Minister not giving the detail required, about the then Deputy Cooney proposing to give to the House numerous instances of breaches of the law which had gone ignored by the Government. He gave those instances and I shall not bore the House by reading them out now. In reference to the instances of the law being ignored by the Government the then Deputy Cruise-O'Brien had this to say and I quote from column 326 of that debate:

... But, I do want to get one thing on the record, that is, Deputy Cooney in his statement gave a number of examples, and they were impressive examples, of cases which the Government had the power to cope with and have the power to cope with clearly under the existing law. He gave details of such cases. I want the Minister to deal in detail with those cases and explain to the Dáil why he did not see that the law was enforced in relation to these cases. He has a duty to do this when he comes before this House and demands new, exceptional, drastic, extraordinary legislation. He needs to account to us for what he has done with the legislation he actually has which includes the very wide, drastic powers available to him under the Offences Against the State Act, powers far wider than most governments in western Europe or in North America possess and which he has not been using.

Those are a couple of the leading lights of the present Government who no doubt in conjunction with their colleagues have considered what is now before us. It is only fair to the public and to this House that we should have explanations from those two Ministers of today, particularly with that on record in the serious manner stated and instances having been given, when they challenged the then Minister for Justice to give his reasons for not having carried out the law available to him; making that as a case why he should not get any further powers and very aptly described by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs of today as new, exceptional, drastic and extraordinary legislation. If that could be applied in those days to what was proposed in the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1972, it would be very interesting to hear what rate of conversion may have taken place since then in the mind of the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or, indeed, how he would describe today's proposals in the light of his beliefs at that time.

There are a few others who might be worthy of some quotation in the context of this extraordinary measure today. At column 282 of the same debate of the 29th November, 1972, we had the present Minister for Justice saying something relevant and important then which, if anything, is more so now. I quote:

We progress deeper when we reach section 3 of the Bill. It is an underlying principle of our legal code that a person is innocent until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt. This section turns that basic tenet upside down. It devises a situation where a reasonable inference can cause a person to be found guilty....

Despite the situation then envisaged by the present Minister for Justice— when he thought there was sufficient law to deal with anything and everything; in fact, that there was an underuse of that law for various reasons to which he attributed various motives, the fact remains that more law of the kind he thought unnecessary to deal with the situation then, which is little different from the situation obtaining today—to those adequate laws of pre-November 1972 —is being added to that which was regarded as new, drastic, extraordinary and so on, as described by the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Before this discussion concludes can we have some enlightenment from the Minister for Justice—and I think we are entitled to it—as to his apparent amazing conversion to a situation in which he believes that the laws of pre-November, 1972, are inadequate, that the addition of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1972, has not succeeded in filling the void? Would he explain to the House and to the public just how that occurred. It would be enlightening to hear from the Minister the reasons for his conversion, how this extraordinary measure of declaring a state of emergency is necessary or useful in the context in which he spoke some time ago.

In the debate on the Offences Against the State Bill, 1972, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare, who was then in Opposition, stated at column 305 of the Official Report:

This Bill could only be described as a pollution of justice.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary found a cure for the pollution caused by the Offences Against the State Bill which later became an Act? Is he not fearful of the much greater pollution that will be caused by the passage of the motion now before the House? We would like to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary how he proposes to deal with the added pollution of justice that this emergency declaration will bring into existence. Perhaps he will tell us how we will survive in the polluted atmosphere that is bound to follow the passage of a resolution which is far more serious and which is in addition to what he described as a pollution of justice in 1972. His explanation of how he can live with this new added pollution is one that many Members of this House would like to hear.

I do not intend to bore the House with many quotations from various sources. A few of them are typical of the attitude of the Members who were then in Opposition and who are now in Government. We are seeking an explanation from those Members of how they have been converted. Before the enactment of the Offences Against the State Act, 1972, their attitude was that there was enough law to deal with matters but now their present attitude is to reach for the Constitution; as an old and much revered member of Fine Gael once said, "reaching for the Constitution and effectively blowing it up". In this connection I refer to a very distinguished member of Fine Gael who spoke in this House on this matter in 1939. From the legal point of view he was a luminary in his own right and, as a Parliamentarian, he had few peers. I am referring to Deputy Paddy McGilligan. He spoke in the debate on the First Amendment of the Constitution that really made way for the Offences Against the State Act and the declaration of an emergency in 1939. At column 11, Volume 77 of the Official Report, with regard to the First Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1939, he stated:

On the resolution itself I can only say that it has been an ordinary occurrence to people visiting a country in the course of the last couple of years to be shown over the points of strategical importance and be told the positions that have been mined and the precautions that have been taken to blow them up. This country now finds itself facing a state in which there is a national emergency and the best it can do is to blow up the entire Constitution. I do not say that it is not necessary to do that, but let us be clear that that is what we are doing.

I have brought this forward because it was stated by the Taoiseach today when introducing this motion that, as a result, the Constitution would not stand suspended. That is his view but I have set out the view of a very learned legal man of high political, repute who spoke in this House on the eve of the passing of the declaration of the emergency. That was a real emergency with the second world war exploding around us.

Today the Taoiseach told us the Constitution was not being suspended and he went on to pacify those who might have fears in this direction; he stated that if there was any truth in the view that this motion would suspend the Constitution it would have been done since 1939. That was the argument he relied on to pacify the fears of some people. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach stated that until the motion before us has been passed the emergency declared in 1939 still exists. He went further to say that there is really no need, legally speaking, for this particular one. I think the whole business revolves around this matter. If we do not need it, why are we having it? If we need it, is it not held it is because we need more law, that we need to push the Constitution out of the way in order to make those laws in such a way as to satisfy the Government's wish for law and order merely by writing it into the statute book?

It is clear that the resolution passed in 1939 had to do with the outbreak of the second world war. There was no doubt in the minds of those who spoke at that time that there was an emergency that had to be dealt with even by measures that were unpalatable to those in Opposition. However, there has been no effort to justify the enactment of an emergency declaration in this instance. Neither the proposer of the motion nor the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach stated any grounds that could possibly be extended or expanded in one's wildest dreams to bring about a situation that could be regarded as a national emergency so far as the Constitution is concerned. I would ask the speakers who may speak from the Government benches to go out of their way, even if it means adjourning the debate, to dig deep to find the reasons for this extraordinary motion before the House.

It just is not on as we have it at the moment. There is no national emergency that would in any way bring about a situation that would fit into our Constitution in regard to the setting aside of the rights of individuals under that Constitution. Admittedly, the Taoiseach has highlighted two happenings, the regretted death of the British Ambassador and the explosions at the Special Criminal Court. Could the Taoiseach or any of his Ministers or speakers explain to the House and to the people how additional legislation written into our Statute Book could have or will prevent happenings of the nature that have been mentioned here as a cause for declaring an emergency under our constitutional provisions? I do not believe it is constitutional because it does not exist and has not been shown to exist. No effort has been made by members of the Government to show to our people that such an emergency exists.

I will not make any suggestions as to what may or may not have been wrong that either or both of those happenings took place. I say in all sincerity to the Government that it is not lack of law on our Statute Book that was at fault, if there was fault on anybody's part, and no amount of additional law written into our Statute Book is a cure for whatever may have been wrong, if anything was wrong, in regard to those two particular incidents mentioned by the Taoiseach as reasons why he feels some sort of an emergency situation obtains at the moment.

Would some member of the Government, who may speak later, tell the House what organisations under existing laws have been and are prescribed at the present moment? Would the Government tell us if it was ever ascertained who brought about the bombing of the night on which the Offences Against the State Act was literally bombed through the House? Although it is early days yet, have we any idea who it was or what organisation, if any, brought about the fire bomb onslaught in the city within the last 48 hours? Do we see in those two things any connection? If we do, then we would be pretty ham-handed to be guided by them as some Members of the House were misguided by the bombings of 1972. There is undoubtedly a very crude parallel between the two things. I ask again do we know who perpetrated the bombing of 1972? What is our progress in regard to knowing who caused the fire bombing of 1976? Do those who are charged with safeguarding our lives and property on this side of the Border have any ideas or leads that would connect the 1972 type of operation with the 1976 operation? If we do not know the answer to that, should we not stand back a while and try to find out where, how, why and by whom those things were perpetrated and if they were perpetrated with the avowed purpose of stampeding legislation through the House by causing, as they did in 1972 and hope to but did not in 1976, panic amongst the public, fanned no doubt by the little asides from their political leaders at that time, whom it suited to do so?

I ask the Taoiseach and any of the people on his front benches or any members of the parties that support him what is in the proposals that follow from the emergency declaration motion we are discussing that will in any way improve the security situation in the country, particularly on this side of the Border? No effort has been made—perhaps it was regarded as unnecessary, that it would be selfevident although it is not to me and I believe is not to others—to tell us what is contained in all this coming before us today that will in any way secure our safety to a greater degree than is capable of being done under existing laws?

It may have been purely accidental but the coincidence is rather extraordinary that the timing of the introduction of these particular measures should come almost on the eve of the publication of the report of the torture case taken by the Government against the British Government five years ago. I know the content of the report has already been given an airing, if we are to believe what we read in the newspapers. The Government have rightly refused to disclose what is in this report or to make comment on it because of an agreement they have with the British for simultaneous publication, which I understand will be Thursday of this week. Is there anything out of the ordinary in what appears to be the extraordinary timing of the recall of the House? This could have been done last week or the week before, if an emergency, such as we are being asked to declare, actually exists.

Is there something between the two things, the publication of the torture report and bringing this House together, perhaps with the hope that those measures can be cleared through and in operation before the torture report has been dealt with? That may be just an extraordinary coincidence but having waited five years for the report and having gone many years without a declaration of emergency motion being before the House in all sorts of circumstances—and today's circumstances are no worse even if they are as bad as in the past—it seems rather striking that we should be recalled a few days before the torture report is due to be officially released and commented on, despite the fact that it is available to the Government for a considerable time and despite the fact that it is a considerable time since the Government indicated to the public that they would be recalling the Dáil for some very vital issue, which now turns out to be to declare an emergency, to set aside the Constitution.

For what purpose is all of this? Will any additional law, no matter how far reaching, how repugnant or Draconian it may be, add in any way to the safety of our people or their property? Will the proposed provisions which would violate the rights of the individual add in any way to the safety of our institutions? Unless the Government can answer a firm "yes" to these questions they should not be allowed by this House to pass this resolution, a resolution which sets aside the constitutional rights of the individual.

No reason of any significant proportion has been put before the public which would weigh the scales in favour of setting aside the Constitution, something which a real national emergency justifies. However, we have no such national emergency, at least none that we have been told of, but should there be some serious effort to overthrow the Government we are entitled to be told so that we might consider seriously the measures before us. We are entitled to know if there is a danger of some organisation attempting to take over and set up a dictatorship because this is the only kind of situation that would justify a declaration of emergency at this time. Are there some moves afoot that are known to the Government alone? If so, we should be so informed so that we might consider seriously the passage of this resolution and stand with the Government in defending our institutions and parliamentary democracy. But until we are given a plausible reason as to why the constitutional rights of the individual should be set aside we must oppose tooth and nail the passing of this motion, a motion bringing in its train the sort of Draconian laws and regulations we can expect.

Despite their political affiliations I trust that the majority of the Members of this House will not see their way to suspending the rights of the individual. The Constitution is, in effect, the only real charter available to the individual but if the citizens' rights are to be waived in the manner proposed here we are making a sham of our democratic institutions both now and for the future. Such a move would be a dramatic step backwards. It is a move to which no Member of this House should lend his support. If we suspended our Constitution on grounds that are not sustainable, we are effecting a situation that is non-democratic. In other words, we are using the democratic process in order to bring about a non-democratic situation.

I have here another quotation. It is from column 13 of Volume 77 of the Official Report for 2nd September, 1939. The debate was on the First Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1939, when Deputy James Dillon said:

... We have here a clear constitutional duty to defend the rights and interests of the ordinary man, his constitutional rights and interests against encroachment by the Executive, or by bureaucracy represented by the Civil Service. Nevertheless, we have got this fact, that the Government of this country, faced with the world situation that it is now faced with, is entitled to ask for exceptional powers. We may have grave misgivings about the abuse of such powers, either by this or by any other Government that afterwards may be elected, but whether we trust individually the Fianna Fáil Government or not, the fact remains that the present Executive Council is the Government elected by the Irish people and is, as any Government in this country in these circumstances would be, entitled to the exceptional powers they look for and, I think, they are so entitled when the world dissolves itself into war.

Therefore, this Government is entitled to them, and, reluctant though we may be to give these Draconian powers, I think we are obliged to give them, and to trust that any Government elected by the Irish people will prove themselves worthy of these immense responsibilities placed upon them ...

These were the words of a man who for many years was a noted figure in this House. Although he had his doubts about the trustworthiness individually of Fianna Fáil, collectively he saw that the outbreak of war in Europe brought about the sort of situation that was envisaged to be covered by Article 28 of our Constitution. He talked of the powers being Draconian. Despite his ability to sway public opinion by his oratory and reasoning, he made no attempt in those circumstances to get away from the fact that the last great war was for us an emergency situation, and because of that, reluctantly and with some doubt as to his belief in the credibility or the reliability of the individual people then in Government, he agreed to the giving of those powers. Despite the fact that the survival of our people may have been involved, it was with reluctance that that member of Fine Gael, one of the leading people in the party at the time, added his voice to that of Deputy Paddy McGilligan in giving what could not be withheld because of the exigencies of the time. If those powers were described as Draconian in those crucial times what can we say of the powers being sought today when no one other than, perhaps, a few in the Government benches are aware of the circumstances in which an emergency situation can truly be said to exist to the point where we would be justified in bringing in a motion and setting aside the constitutional rights of our people?

The onus is on the Government, if they have reason for bringing in these powers, to show beyond any doubt and to the utmost of their ability, through their contributions to follow in this House, how they have added up the present circumstances into an emergency situation to justify setting aside the constitutional rights of our people under the terms of Article 28 of the Constitution. I do not see it, and I do not think many other people can see it. The Government must have something up their sleeves and we are entitled to hear about it. If it is something that, for security reasons, cannot be disclosed, then we should be told there are such reasons which cannot be disclosed because it would adversely affect the security of our country, and we would have to take that on credit from the Government spokesman of today. If that were said, we could look at this matter in a different way, but no such attempt has been made.

I do not discount the idea that there may yet be extended to us from the Government information that would totally change the scales in so far as the justification for this measure is concerned. However, in the absence of an opportunity later to make this point, if we do not hear anything extraordinary from the Government or any claims that anything extraordinary is afoot that it would be better we did not know about, I can only surmise why we are presented at this time with this motion, with these new extended laws and increased penalties which are being proposed in the legislation that would come before us. I may be unkind to the Government but, if so, they have the opportunity to tell us what the situation is or why they cannot tell us what it is. Otherwise we are left to surmise that this is really a red herring at a time of national economic difficulties, that it is a method of trying to blind the people to the realities of life as they are now emerging, that through this legislation the Government are hoping to divert the attention of many of our people who have become very critical of the Government's disastrous progress through the past couple of years, whereby unemployment is at a level never before known, whereby our school leavers are pouring out in unprecedented numbers into a market which is unreceptive to their talents and their new-found educational achievements.

Is all this an attempt to divert our attention from those things? Is it not also an attempt to divert attention from the declining value of our money, tied as we are to a tottering currency that has lost almost 50 per cent of its world value over the last four years? Can it be that an attempt is being made to divert attention from the spiralling of the cost of living? Can it be an attempt to delude our people that those things are not there by holding out some rather mystical emergency situation? I agree there is an emergency, an economic emergency, and that if we are not very careful a situation could be brought about whereby there would be justification for setting aside the rights of the individual through the taking of extraordinary powers. Through our economic ills, through our unemployment, through the decline in money values, we are on the path——

The Chair has already drawn attention to the fact that we must not allow the debate to enter into economic matters.

I am sorry but——

We cannot depart from the terms of the motion before the House and enter into an economic debate.

I do not wish to disagree with the ruling of the Chair, but I was in this House when these matters were already raised, and I did not hear the Chair indicate that they were out of order. I heard Deputy Coogan, who was not in the Chair, drawing attention to the then speaker being out of order, but I did not hear the Chair——

The Chair on the occasion, but not on the intervention of Deputy Coogan, drew the attention of the Leader of the Opposition to the necessity for keeping within the terms of the motion and not entering into an economic debate.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I have always found you a very reasonable man and far be it from me to be unreasonable with the Chair, whether it is a reasonable man that is in it or anybody else, but I think I have made the point sufficiently well, and I do not want to labour it. However, are we being diverted from the true situation by these extraordinary powers that are being requested from us and from the Seanad through this motion?

On the other hand, could it be that in addition we are over-touchy and self-conscious due to our national inferiority complex, which in turn no doubt is due to our long history of oppression by our good neighbours across the Channel? Could it be that we are over-reacting, over-conscious of their occasional jabs from across the Channel and across the Border, that we are not doing enough on the security front as they see it, that we are making up to them, pandering, saying, "We have gone further than you"?

Before I entered this Parliament and since, I have had occasion to think that in our parliamentary procedures we have always followed the British. Indeed I should prefer to continue to follow them than to break the timeworn tradition as we appear to be doing by these measures. Are we in this placating the British critics and the more outspoken of our Unionist critics in the Six Counties who say there is not sufficient activity on this side of the Border to try to quell the situation in the Six Counties brought about by their own suppression and stupidity and vicious operations over the generations and the centuries? If that is what we are doing we should stop it. We will not be given any credit for that; we will be regarded, as we have been during the years by British Governments, as a people who can be kicked into line.

It is time we told them we will not be kicked into line. It is time we told them on behalf of our people in the Six Counties that we have been kicked into line for too long. Of course, we have been told by Airey Neave—if you change a letter in the second name it will spell "naive"— that we are all right because we are doing this thing. Of course, we will get credit from those people for doing this sort of thing because in all fairness to them they do not know what is going on or what has been going on in the Six Counties for generations. But who is conferring the credit on the eve of the publication of the torture report from the European Court on Human Rights? Who are the cause of our ills? Why should we pander to those who are the usurpers of the control of part of our country? While that usurpation remains there cannot be any true getting togetherness of our people in the North or between the people of the North and South.

I say in all sincerity to the Taoiseach and the Government that we are not looking at this matter of the Six Counties problem with any realism. Rather are we continuing, collectively with the British and others in the Six Counties, to bury our heads in the sand and being thumped on the behind so very often for doing so. We will continued to be thumped on the behind if we continue to keep our heads in the sand and tackle the effect rather than the cause in this whole matter. The cause is the occupation of part of our land by an outside power who have no right to be there and who are now well and truly of the opinion that it is time for them to go if it were not for the extraordinary situation of Dublin appearing to be reluctant at the possibility that they might go.

We must get rid of the situation whereby part of our island is occupied by the British. Having got rid of that problem, have the Taoiseach and the Government asked themselves how they would deal with the situation then obtaining? If that has not been done, I very humbly put it to the Taoiseach that it should be done. It should be one of the preoccupations of any Government in these days and the days ahead to be trying to sort out that situation. It may be said that it might never happen, but would it not be a tragedy if it did happen and we were not prepared for it? I will not go so far as to say that it will happen but I believe it could happen that the British may decide, despite the reluctance of the Dublin Government, to declare their intention to go. All I am saying now is that if we, as a Government, are not already—and I am not expecting an answer because I understand the difficulty that that might impose—through our civil servants and agencies, actively pursuing with the British the plans that would be necessary when they have gone, then on the heads of the Government will be the double tragedy we may face if Britain decide unilaterally to pull out, and to hell with what we think. That is quite on the cards although I hope it would not be done in haste.

As I said to some Ministers in the past, having stayed too long, do not go too hastily. They have done that already in several places with dire results. The Dublin Government are showing clearly their reluctance to face up to the realities that would obtain if Britain pulled out of Northern Ireland and left us to find our own solutions, and to learn how to live together rather than die together as it is at the moment, as it has been for some time past and, unfortunately, will be for many years ahead, unless there is a change.

Do we need this resolution or is the Parliamentary Secretary correct when he says that, legally speaking, the 1939 emergency declaration is still in operation? How can we accept the assurance given by the Taoiseach that the Constitution is not being suspended? He added the assurance that if this was suspended, it had been suspended from 1939 to the present time. That is not enough of an assurance from the Taoiseach or anybody else to set aside the views of colleagues of note, such as Deputy Patrick McGilligan who, in 1939, regarded the Constitution as "blown up"—he meant blown apart —for the purpose of dealing with the true emergency which then existed. Was Deputy McGilligan right in those days? Were the rights of the individual being usurped as a result of the motion then passed and now proposed? Who and in what way will we benefit by providing for seven days' detention without let or hindrance by anybody, and those responsible for the detention under no compunction or compulsion or answerable to no one? Why do we want seven days? I do not mean RTE's "7 Days", although sometimes we do not want that either. What is wrong with the 48 hours available at the moment? Is it to fast a person into submission? Is it to interrogate him beyond endurance? Is it to give him a flip in a helicopter, as was done by the security forces in the Six Counties? During those seven days will we introduce the hooded sack arrangement? Why do we want to pull in somebody for seven days if there is nothing against him? If there is, surely 48 hours is long enough? What can we hope legitimately to achieve by extending the 48 hours to seven days? Are we not entitled to suspect that it is for the more Draconian measures that have been perpetrated elsewhere rather than any good reason that we are seeking the seven days during which the suspect has no rights? This is a most serious situation and one for which I cannot envisage justification in any circumstances. What can we get for holding a man for seven days that we could not get in 48 hours? If there is sufficient suspicion to have lifted a suspect in the first place, and if it cannot be proved within 48 hours that there is a case, clearly that person should not have been taken in at that stage? Those who suspected him should have done more homework. The lifting of people should only take place in circumstances where the time within which they are held or questioned was sufficient to enable proper charges to be brought against them.

A period of 48 hours is long enough. Seven days brings very great suspicion in view of our recent awareness of the tortures inflicted on our kith and kin north of the Border by the British Army and the experts in getting confessions from the suspect at any cost. We are more alive to this situation now than ever before because we are right up against it. We have been hearing about it. We know it is true. We know it has happened. This should give us cause to beware of giving any force the right to hold a suspect for as long as seven days without charges being preferred and, under this measure, without any rights being extended to the person so held.

If we are to have any credibility in our Government or institutions of State in the future we must be given the reasons why a person may be held without charge for seven days. It is well known that the present 48 hours is long enough. Where it is not, the suspect is released and quickly detained again, thus making 96 hours. That can go on indefinitely and has happened on a number of occasions. It is an abuse of the 48 hour detention but it happens. What will be the situation where seven days is the normal time? When these people are lifted they can be forgotten about for seven days and nobody can say anything about it. On the other hand, there is the more sinister aspect that we will have seven days to work on them.

We may say that that would never happen here. The danger is that it might. It is not the prerogative of a government to allow a situation to arise where it might happen to somebody. We have no right to put somebody else at risk and expose them to what might happen no matter how unlikely that we may preach it is likely to be. In other words, we cannot say for the general public that we represent that there is no danger in the seven days, that nothing can happen to anybody who is taken in for seven days and that his rights will not be violated. It is all very well for us to talk about it but I wonder how many of us would be so blithe in our approach to this seven-day period where there are great opportunities for all sorts of operations that are far from legal or constitutional, if we felt that each of us would experience the seven-day treatment. I wonder would we agree, as appears to be the case of the members of the Government and those who back them, that seven days is necessary and that nothing untoward will happen within those seven days.

The first thing that would happen, by laws that would follow from this motion, is that an individual would be put out of circulation for seven days, his movement and activities would be curtailed, his freedom would be denied and that is the most important and fundamental thing to be looked at. What one might imagine a seven-day stop is going to bring about or could encourage bringing about is totally beyond the pale, because we should think in terms of what justifies in our circumstances the denial of the most basic right of the freedom of the individual. What is happening at present that justifies detention for seven days after which a person might be let go? It is a scandalous proposal and a scandalous performance against a background that is either inadequately explained to us or for which there is no justifiable explanation. Every Member proposing to support this measure should think of it in terms of himself being pulled in unexpectedly and kept for seven days apart from any questioning, interrogation or persuasion. They should think about being closed up for seven days and being let out at the end of it because there is nothing against you. Thinking of it in those terms, are Deputies still prepared to back the measure that will bring this situation about in circumstances that do not demand any such extraordinary measures for powers being given to the keepers of the peace in this country? The very men who are now proposing this measure were satisfied before the Offences Against the State Act, 1972, that there were more than enough laws on the Statute Book not to mention what was put on as a result of that measure. They are now coming to introduce this legislation without a word of explanation as to how they have been converted from their belief that there was more than enough law available but a lack of will on the part of the then Government to put it into practice into the belief that will bring about this situation where the liberty of each individual in this country can be snuffed for seven days on just the say so, on what somebody has in mind as to his guilt or otherwise. This is absolutely wrong and the Government members who went to such great pains as late as 1972 to indicate their disagreement with the measures then being proposed, should, of all people, be very vigilant within their own Government, that the power which they have now got has not corrupted them to the stage that they are prepared to accept today proposals which are much worse than those they were fighting against and objecting to yesterday.

In the context of this motion, I would ask the Government and the Taoiseach if they would at this stage postpone the final consideration of the matter until the torture report has been published and we have had an opportunity of seeing it. Will the Government even at this time take time off to try to find justification that would carry some measure of conviction to the general public as to the need for and the justification of a declaration of a national emergency when to all intents and purposes none exists? Will the Government also think in terms of retracting entirely their attitude in proposing these measures no matter how inexplicable such a going back would be at this time? Many would understand that the Government might have been panicked into such extraordinary measures just to show what good boys they are to the British who would be sore with them in what would appear to be the Government's lack of security in relation to their ambassador and his people.

More mature though might indicate that this might be a very high price to pay because I think in passing this motion what we will be doing is saying to the public: "Democracy does not matter a damn. We were sent here democratically but we are entitled to act other than in a democratic manner when it suits us as a Government". That will breed further cynicism in the public mind in regard to our Parliament and its institutions. At present we have enough cynicism and, perhaps, enough basis for the cynicism that is there without adding to it still further as we will if we continue blindly with this stupid measure for whatever purpose there may be behind it. Certainly no justification exists or has been shown to exist as to why we should put this measure through. The number of people being killed in the Six Counties was mentioned here. This is part of our tragedy. The number of physically injured is walking evidence of the continuing tragedy because they number far more—upwards of 18,000. That does not take into account the thousands who in various ways have been injured, perhaps even more seriously—mentally, without necessarily showing mental aberration. The 1,600 who have been killed are our people; the 18,000 who have been injured are our people just as the 37 killed on this side of the Border and 189 recorded as injured are our people. Are we to continue to stand aside and watch this parade of death and destruction and injury continue in the future because we are too dense to see that it is the cause we should be eradicating and helping to remove rather than trimming the effects which is apparent by what we are castrating ourselves to do with this measure?

I asked earlier and I demand an answer before this debate ends: how many organisations have been proscribed by this law-and-order Government with the powers made available to them by the previous Government under the Offences Against the State Act and what are the names of these organisations? It would also be interesting to know the dates on which these individual organisation were proscribed, if there is a list, which I doubt. If there is no list, whoever is answering might explain why there should not be a list of organisations that should have been proscribed but were not. Unless it has been done recently it is not known to me. I have asked this question several times in various ways inside and outside the House and I have never really got an answer. I am left with the suspicion if there is no answer that the list is very short, in fact, the minimum capable of being put there. Perhaps there has been activity since. I hope there has been because there should be on top of that list those who were not put on it whose inclusion might perhaps have prevented some of the tragedy that has happened near home, on this side of the Border.

In saying to the Government that what they are doing here is a bad thing, I believe it should be possible for other voices to be added to ask them to think again about what they propose to do, the manner in which they are setting aside the constitutional rights of our people by utilising the Constitution which should be the protector of the people and is now being misused if not deliberately, then unwittingly by the Government to deny the constitutional rights enshrined in it for the individual. It is a strange, twisted sort of situation in which to find ourselves, one for which there is no excuse. There is no national emergency in this country at present to justify the operation of Article 28. Since there is not, and since it is so evident that there is no emergency, will the Government even now delay pushing this measure through and even have second thoughts about enacting it at all? Or, if they have what they consider good reasons which would create a true emergency and which may not be known for some cause they should tell the House and the people and we could see the truth later on. That would be the guarantee we would have. Or, if it is something that can be told, why can we not be told? But to go as we are going, codding the people and the House by misusing Article 28 in the interests of the so-called security of the people in an alleged emergency that does not exist is surely the height of folly on one hand and a denigration of the usefulness and worth and credibility of this Parliament if it is used as is now proposed, in a way it was never intended to be used, to put through a motion to set aside the Constitution, the real basis for its existence and when its true worth is in the upholding of the rights of the individual. We come along blindly and say that we want to declare an emergency full stop. We have not heard one reason or argument advanced to show that such an emergency is even worth thinking about, never mind being in existence.

Are we trying to divert the people's attention from the true emergency which may not be dealt with under Article 28 which does not deal with economic emergencies, although the situation could become very serious in the future to the point that the present economic emergency could have the effect of bringing about the other type of emergency that would clearly fit into Article 28. I hope that does not happen. I should prefer to see the Government devoting their time and energy to ways and means of providing a way out of our present economic slump rather than creating diversionary tactics so as to blind the people to the reality of their crucial situation at present. I wish the Government under any guise would take their time about this matter which will be the worst thing they have ever done.

It will do more damage to this Government and future Governments and to the credibility and standing of this Parliament than any other Act ever put through this House. It will not in any way solve the problem of the 6-county situation. In no way will it help to bring an end to that tragedy. In no way does it set about trying to deal with the cause of the tragedy and so it must only add to the failures we have already experienced in trying to legislate our way in this House out of the problem that is truly ours, the 6-county problem. Britain is the creator of it but we are the people whose problem it is and it will be our problem long after Britain has gone. But it is an Irish problem within the foreshores of Ireland and the people who are the cause of the problem are still there and we are more or less saying to them: "Do not go away. We do not know what would happen if you did." Recently I was talking to some British statesmen and they are completely bamboozled. Here is the Dublin Parliament which down the years has been clamouring for our lost territory to be restored and when we come to the point at which there is a great likelihood that the occupiers have no longer any use for that territory and find the occupation and the problems connected with it irksome and costly and obviously in a frame of mind in which they could be induced to go that Parliament is reluctant that they should go.

Why are we reluctant? We are reluctant because, first of all, we do not understand collectively as a Parliament that this is our problem. Secondly we do not understand the problem itself and we have not taken any great pains to find out what the problem is and, thirdly, our reluctance is probably rooted in selfishness. We have been too comfortable in our own little nest on this side of the Border. Over the years through 1916 and 1922 and since we have been trying to build ourselves up, win something for ourselves against the odds and there is, perhaps, a sort of feeling that we have done enough and it is not fair we should be burdened with another part of the problem, a problem which is ours and always will be, and that is the Six-county occupation by the British. I believe they would talk about going if only the Dublin Parliament would sit down with them and encourage them. I have warned them that they must do so or take the dire consequences.

We should have contingency plans for when the British go. I believe we should be encouraging them to go. Even if we are reluctant that they should go it is only prudent to have contingency plans between ourselves and the British Government lest they do go. I hope they will go because I can see no peace for the future until they do go. We would all wish them to go in an orderly way and to enable them to do that there must be planning between us and them. Otherwise there will be chaos. The extent of that chaos we do not know. If no plans are made and everything collapses about our ears those responsible for that neglect will be entitled to suffer the greatest penalty the people can impose on them. They have had due warning. I urge the Taoiseach to make that contingency plan. He is not doing much else but at least let him get down to some plan and be prepared for the day that Britain departs from these shores so that there will not be even greater tragedy than now exists.

I appealed at the outset to all Members, irrespective of party, to take this opportunity of putting the screws on the Government front bench and to cry halt to the Government setting aside the constitutional rights of the people, adding insult to injury by utilising Article 28 in order to do so. They can prevent the Government leading them by the nose into the division lobby to support a measure they know in their hearts and souls is not wanted and has not been justified, a measure which will bring the Constitution into contempt and will be to the detriment of the democratic process. We are elected democratically. It would be a shame if for purely party political advancement or motives Members permitted themselves to be shepherded into the division lobby to support a measure which strikes at the very root of the democratic process on which we here depend for our very existence.

I am not asking Members to reject this. All I am asking them to do is to put pressure on to stop this mad gallop over the edge of the precipice. If the Government are adamant—no reasons have been given to us why they should be adamant—that a national emergency does exist, then I would advise them to go to the country on this issue. Being such a law and order Government they must win but at least let them go and ask the people and jet us see what the people think after three weeks of campaigning. Let them do what they have refused to do here, give convincing evidence for the justification of this measure to enlighten those of us who are ignorant.

I do not make the suggestion to Labour and Fine Gael as a gibe or a jeer. I make it genuinely because I know there are among Labour and Fine Gael people who do not agree with this proposal. I know Fianna Fáil are, of course, voting to a man against this proposal. I am not asking Labour and Fine Gael supporters to vote their Government out but, rather, to say to the Government that they do not agree with this proposal and the Government should have another look at it and, if they are not prepared to do that, then in the last analysis let them take the obvious course and go to the country. Those who would be responsible for that would not suffer. Of that I am certain.

Could it be that the real reason for this measure is a desire on the part of the Government to complicate the position and cover up something, some slip-ups somewhere on the security front? Could it be that, in diverting the public's attention from the economic situation, what they are really seeking is that they would bring about a situation in the Dáil on this measure which would justify their going up to the Park and saying: "We are off to the country on the law and order issue"? If that is what they have in their mind, good luck to them; get on with it; go now and see how far they will get in trying to cod the public, if that is what they are up to. If they are not, then I apologise. If they have reasons for this we do not know about, that they can show us exist at present but which, for security reasons, they cannot tell, then I would apologise abjectly for all of the things I have said about them. But, knowing the lot of boys they are, I do not believe that is so. But if they want a gallop to the country, off they go; away with them but I think they will be very sorry people for having done so. This one will kick back on them in a way they never thought. It will be like the old head in the sand I told them about before. It is not one thump they will get in the behind but a dozen.

The Leader of the Opposition, every Fianna Fáil speaker so far and Deputy Blaney posed one common question—whether or not there was an emergency serious enough to warrant the legislation now before the House. That is a very easy one to answer because all one has to do is go to the Taoiseach's speech and see there the figures of 1,600 dead and 18,000 injured. One thinks of Garda Dick Fallon, Garda Reynolds, God rest them, the helicopter escape from Mountjoy, the mail train robbery, the escape from Portlaoise Prison. One thinks of the unfortunate man driving the van carrying the Leyland workers' payroll who was murdered. One thinks of the bombings in Talbot Street and in Monaghan. One thinks of all of that and one says: "Yes, there is an emergency". It is endorsed when one thinks of the murder of Senator Billy Fox, Lord rest his soul. One further thinks of the assassination of the former British Ambassador, Mr. Ewart-Biggs and the young lady civil servant. Then there were, as the Taoiseach said in his speech, the bombings at Green Street Court. Those are all reasons that speak for themselves and say that there is an emergency.

Of course, there is a point in time when emergencies have to be dealt with. This is the particular point in time, I suppose, highlighted by the death of Mr. Ewart-Biggs and the young lady civil servant. Even though one might say: "perhaps had it been somebody else it would not have happened", there was inevitably a point in time when there had to be legislation of this kind.

When one looks at the legislation one must examine what one can do when faced with a situation such as that with which this country is faced at present. The first thing one thinks is that the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy proved that there is no such thing as full security, that if somebody wants to shoot somebody else, the chances are they are prepared to take the consequences and the risk of apprehension; that, in the end, they probably succeed and that all one can do, as far as Garda and Army are concerned, is to have the very highest level of security, knowing that there is no such thing as complete security. One can then do something else. One can indicate to the courts of the land —by increasing maximum penalties for certain offences—that the Government of the day, elected democratically by the majority of the people, are of a mind and determined that those offences shall be regarded as more serious than heretofore.

In their democratic way the courts of the land will look at this and say: "The Parliament of the country decided that for membership of an illegal organisation the maximum penalty which was two years now becomes seven". The introduction of higher penalties will be an indication to the courts of the land that they will impose higher sentences. Nobody interferes with them but they will, of themselves, take note of the Parliament of the country and what it has done. If, for example, the maximum penalty for membership of an illegal organisation is raised from two years to seven, then the courts will take account of the fact that the majority of the people, through their parliament, decided that the offence of membership of an illegal organisation was a more serious one than had been thought heretofore.

The next thing one can do is to look at existing legislation and see what one can do to introduce new offences, if new offences there should be. In my view the most important thing done was the production of the new offence of incitement or invitation to join an unlawful organisation. That will hit the armchair generals, the middle-aged fellows of my age and over who incite young boys to join unlawful organisations and, perhaps, send them to their death, or perhaps, even worse, to kill many more. Therefore, the Government decided that there would be a new offence and the maximum penalty for that offence would be ten years' imprisonment. That offence was the one of incitement or invitation to join an unlawful organisation.

The Government then looked at the situation in relation to the Defence Forces and the Garda. I am constrained not to speak quite openly in relation to the Defence Forces because, obviously there are security considerations. But, within the limits of the constraint I will endeavour to tell the House all that I feel I should. The first thing one says is that when one increases an Army from 8,900 up to 14,000 plus, for a couple of years at least one has an inordinate number of people in training, people who while being trained are of no use to one at that point in time but who will be of use to one in the future. Happily, that position is now evening off. We have already the services of many excellent young men who have finished their training, who have now —having served a while with their commands—been put out to help the guards at road checks, on patrol and in various other ways. That means that the effectiveness of the Defence Forces, in combatting subversion and terrorism is greatly enhanced and that is bad news for the terrorists.

Then one looks at what is the position. The position is and remains, as the Taoiseach said in his speech, that we are in aid of the civil power. The Defence Forces are in aid of the civil power and will remain so. There is no question of the Army acting of its own volition. Therefore, the legislation now before the House indicates that, at the request of a Garda superintendent, it will be possible for the Army to give, as it has always done, the services required, with the extra powers of search and arrest. As I have said, I have the constraint on me that I must not give figures. Therefore, I will give figures which, in fact, are incorrect.

What is the point in giving them if they are not correct?

They will prove my point and indicate the reasons. Deputy O'Malley will understand when I tell him; he will see the point. If, in a Garda division, or two, along the Border there were, perhaps, 70 openings where motor vehicles could cross one way or the other, if there is a serious crime committed such as a murder or bank raid on one side or the other, the present position is that, in order to have the Army help the guards, one would need one garda at each crossing, plus five or six Army personnel, whatever the number might be, to protect him. That garda, with the strength of the Army protection behind him, would be in a position to stop and search all cars. Now the position is that one has to take out of, perhaps, two divisions of the Garda—imagine two counties—70 guards and place them at crossings of the Border. When one takes 70 guards from an area covering two divisions one finds one has no other guards to carry out all the other duties, the duties of trying to catch bank raiders or murderers, to do patrols, to be at other points away from the Border. Therefore, the tying up of 70 guards in that situation was very inhibiting on the power of the guards to apprehend such criminals.

When the Army have powers of search and arrest it will be possible to have a set number of plans in the various barracks and Garda superintendents will be in a position to ask that a certain plan be put into operation. Plan A might be a small operation, where ten soldiers might be needed at a certain point; plan C might entail five soldiers and an NCO at 70 crossings at the Border; plan B might be something else. It ensures a degree of efficiency and power; it means it will be possible to have the number of people asked for by the Garda to ensure that those wanted are apprehended. This is the warning light for the terrorists. Instead of having a weak force against them when it came to their getting away —they have been very good at getting away—they will face a situation where a much larger and greatly enhanced Army with the powers of search and arrest, at the request of the superintendent will be able to stand at various points and do their job.

I consider these matters important. Deputy Blaney spoke at length about the matter of seven days during which a suspect might be held. If things were normal and if we were just dealing with ordinary criminals I would agree that seven days is probably too long. Ordinary police work and ordinary law operates on the basis that occasionally a guilty man gets away. The reason is that we do not want to be very hard on an innocent man, that everyone is regarded as innocent until proven guilty. However in the few years since this horrible cancer of subversion has come upon us, some 1,600 people are dead and 18,000 have been injured in one part of the country and hundreds in the other and we must look at things in a different way. Personally, if by staying with the guards for seven days it was possible that these criminals could be apprehended, these people who may have killed or robbed a bank or a mail train, quite freely I would go for the seven days. It was asked how one would feel if it affected one personally. I would be quite happy to put up with the seven days provided at the end the criminals were apprehended.

It was suggested in the debate that the period of seven days was for the purpose of very tough interrogation. Very often this is not the case. In order to complete their inquiries, perhaps to get a copy of fingerprints from some other part of the country or to go through all the police work, the Garda need the seven days and that is why they asked for it. It is a small transgression on our freedom when one considers the numbers dead in the last few years.

I live in a Border county, not meant to be the quietest so far as subversion is concerned. I want to pay tribute to the Garda and the Army for the work they are doing. The powers they are getting will allow them to do their work more easily and efficiently. I look forward to the Army helping the Garda, not affecting ordinary police work or the degree of overtime they have to work, but being there with all the planning done so that when a serious crime has been committed they are out with the power to search and arrest and in the numbers that mean that the Garda can be deployed in the most important positions and that they can monitor the whole operation. We did not want this legislation but it had to be. I look forward to a situation where we will again have peace in our land as a result.

I thank the Minister for Defence for being brief at least after what we had to go through before that. We heard today from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach about the comparative unimportance of this motion and the mild, or slight, effect it will have when passed. On reading Article 28 of the Constitution I thought it could not be as unimportant as the Parliamentary Secretary seemed to allege or imply and I went to the leading textbook on Irish constitutional law to find out the views of the learned author. I have the book here—Fundamental Rights in the Irish Law and Constitution, Second Edition, by Professor John M. Kelly. In relation to Article 28.3.3.º he states on page 21:

This sub-section not alone withdraws every constitutional restraint from the Oireachtas when legislating "for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion," but, in addition, makes the question of what is "time of war or armed rebellion" entirely one for the Oireachtas, and one on which the Courts can have nothing to say. Thus it is perfectly possible in time of war or armed rebellion for the Oireachtas, by prefixing to any Act the declaration that it is for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State, to withdraw the contents of the Act entirely from the control of the Constitution, even where the contents of the Act, or some of them, have manifestly nothing whatever to do with such a purpose;

These views of Professor John M. Kelly seem to be in marked contrast with those expressed today by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs if I am not mistaken. In footnote 57 of the first chapter of the same work, Professor Kelly goes on to quote Professor M. de W. Howe, then of Buffalo University Law School, speaking in 1940 of Article 28.3.3º. before the two amendments were made. Those views are strengthened by the amendments since then. Professor Howe, as quoted by Professor Kelly, said:

It seems to me, from an examination of American history, to be abundantly clear that in time of war, more than at any other time, it is important that the preservation of civil liberties be guaranteed. It is easy enough to preserve our liberties in times of tranquillity and peace—then liberties are not likely to be pressed by a satisfied people. ... It seems to me to be profoundly important that the power of the Courts to condemn hysterical and repressive war-time legislation be preserved.... Article 28 seems to me to be profoundly regrettable.

These are the views of two noted academics, two noted constitutional lawyers, on Article 28 under which this motion is being moved. Their views are that the Article is dangerous, that it is liable to give rise to abuses of various kinds and that it should be used only in an extreme situation.

I venture to suggest that the original drafters of the 1937 Constitution envisaged its being used in a serious and drastic situation and in that only. It is as well to recall that this Article has been used only once in the history of the State. That was on 2nd September, 1939, when a motion similar to this was moved in the Dáil and in the Seanad. It was passed very readily at the time because on that day Germany had invaded Poland and Britain and France had declared war on Germany. It was obvious that the whole of Europe was likely to be engulfed in a terrible war within a short time and, unhappily, this proved to be the case. Even though Members of the House at the time, such as Deputies McGilligan and Dillon, expressed grave reservations they admitted readily that there was a serious crisis, that there was a national emergency and that the motion would have to be passed.

I ask the House to contrast the situation that we have today with that which faced the House and the Government of the day on 2nd September, 1939. There is not the faintest comparison. We have a situation today that unhappily is much the same, or is marginally worse, than it has been vis-à-vis Northern Ireland and security in this country on any day in the last four or five years. It has been much the same throughout the whole of that period.

I believe the reason we are here today is because the Government are now prepared to take advantage of one of the most horrible and tragic murders of all the many horrible and tragic murders, that is, the murder of the British Ambassador. There was such widespread revulsion at that that the attitude of a great many people, who perhaps do not examine legislation very carefully or are not in a position to do so, was that they could not care less what the Government or the Oireachtas did as long as they got, in some unspecified way, at the Provisional IRA, or whoever is alleged to have been responsible for this foul and horrible murder. In that kind of emotive atmosphere, unfortunately things can be pushed through rather quickly that might not get through in calmer times.

I again draw the attention of the Government and the House to the views of those two eminent constitutional lawyers on Article 28. I am sure those views were not expressed lightly. They are very apprehensive about this. There are other consequences of the declaration the House is now being asked to make. One of the consequences of what we are doing is to declare under Article 28.3.3º that we are now in a time of war. This Article states:

In this subsection "time of war" includes a time when there is taking place an armed conflict in which the State is not a participant but in respect of which each of the Houses of the Oireachtas shall have resolved that arising out of such armed conflict, a national emergency exists affecting the vital interests of the State...

We are being asked to resolve that. If we so resolve, we are then declaring that for the purposes of this sub-section of Article 28 a time of war exists. I draw the attention of the House, and particularly of the Government, to the provisions of Article 40.4.6º the habeas corpus section which states:

Nothing in this section, however, shall be invoked to prohibit, control, or interfere with any act of the Defence Forces during the existence of a state of war or armed rebellion.

The Bill which will be brought forward and presumably passed if this motion is passed, the Emergency Powers Bill, gives power of detention of seven days to the Garda but not to anybody else. I invite the House to consider for a minute the meaning of Article 40.4.6º. We are declaring by this that we are in a time of war. Are we then to be in a position that as well as whatever powers are given to the Garda under this Emergency Powers Bill, the powers of detention, the Defence Forces may possibly have the same powers and that Article 40.4, which sets out the various rights of citizens to apply for habeas corpus, will not apply during the existence of a state of war or armed rebellion? That would be presumably as defined by Article 28 in a motion such as that we are asked to pass now.

There would be no restraint whatever under the Constitution in those circumstances on the Defence Forces. I do not believe the House wants that. I hope the Government do not want that. Perhaps they know about this but have not drawn the attention of the House to it.

There is another consequence I suggest that arises from our making this declaration under Article 28 about war or armed rebellion. That is what arises under Article 38.4.1º which states:

Military tribunals may be established for the trial of offences against military law alleged to have been committed by persons while subject to military law and also to deal with a state of war or armed rebellion.

Those military tribunals are not the Special Court, which was set up under Article 38.3, even though they can have military personnel at times. They are separate. Such a military tribunal was set up during the last war independently of the Special Courts. Are we now, by making this declaration under Article 28, putting ourselves in the position that those military tribunals, which are not of altogether happy memory during the last war, may be set up and that persons arrested or detained by the Defence Forces may not have the benefit of the provisions of Article 40 in regard to habeas corpus?

Those are serious matters which need consideration because the consequences of trying to say to the world that there is a state of war and a national emergency in the country at the moment when patently there is not, at least on the grounds alleged here, can be very serious. As has already been demonstrated, so far as industry, investment and tourism are concerned, the proposal to make this declaration has had a serious effect.

I came in here with a reasonably open mind as to whether or not this motion to make this declaration of national emergency in a time of war and all the rest of it should be supported. On the face of it I could not see any valid reason to support it but I was perfectly prepared to change my mind and do so if I was convinced by anybody on the Government side that there was a genuine national emergency and that it was necessary to make a resolution of the kind the House made on the 2nd September, 1939.

We only got one paragraph from the Taoiseach in relation to this which stated:

Experience has shown that the period of 48 hours during which persons can now be held in custody under the law is often insufficient for the completion of Garda inquiries in relation to serious offences of the type in question. We have seen that the organisation and execution of such offences can extend widely over the country and involve a substantial number of persons. The security authorities consider that the extended period available for questioning suspects, as information becomes available in the course of inquiries, would unquestionably help to bring to justice the perpetrators of a significantly greater number of offences before they can carry out further outrages. The Government consider that in dealing with ruthless paramilitary organisations, the necessary limitation of individual liberty is fully justified.

That in toto, apart from the long litany of very serious crimes that have been committed since this Government came into power, is the justification for this Bill. Since the Bill is the justification for the motion on the declaration of national emergency it is in effect the best the Government can do in seeking to persuade Members of the House to declare a national emergency.

I cannot see how anybody who examines the position even faintly can conclude that the grounds as given by the Taoiseach are even remotely adequate to justify the declaration of an act of emergency. If it happens occasionally, as I am sure it does, that at the end of 48 hours' detention the Garda do not consider it justified to release a suspect although there is not enough evidence to charge him, they can release him but rearrest him later and detain him for a further 48 hours. The normal procedure is that if somebody is arrested under section 30 of the 1939 Act and is questioned, he is under no obligation to give any information other than his name and address, but if he is prepared to "sing" and to give information either about his own activities or about the activities of his friends he is likely to give that information early on after being detained, so that it is not necessary consequently to detain him for the 48 hours. A period of up to 12 hours would probably be sufficient. The problem of the unusual case in which it may be necessary to detain a person for longer than the 48 hours —something which can be done in the manner I have indicated, that is, by releasing the suspect and then rearresting him—is being used as an excuse for this rather drastic Bill, a Bill which can be introduced only in circumstances of a national emergency being declared by both Houses. I have never known of any parliament of any country being asked to describe itself as being in a time of war or armed conflict with all the consequences that flow from that in every direction on such a paltry reason as the one given today by the Taoiseach.

It is worth drawing attention also to the fact that in the Bill it seems to be assumed that the seven-days' detention provision or, if you like, internment, which in effect this detention is, is in some ways in substitution for or in lieu of the detention that is provided for by section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939. That is not so. There is no provision in the present Bill for repealing that section of the other Bill or, indeed, for repealing any other provision of any of the Offences against the State Acts with the exception of an amendment of one part of the 1972 Act which is of no consequence. Therefore, section 30 of the 1939 Act remains in full force and the position that follows logically from that is that somebody can be arrested, detained for 24 hours and then on the certificate of a chief superintendent his detention can be extended for a further period of 24 hours.

On his release on the expiration of those 48 hours he can be rearrested by any member of the Garda Síochána and detained for 48 hours under section 2 of the Emergency Powers Bill. On the expiration of that 48 hours or, a total of 96 hours when the previous 24 hours are included, he can again on the certificate of a chief superintendent and under section 2 of this Bill, be detained for a further five days, or nine days in all. That detention or, if you wish, internment, is effected without repeating any of the more than one lawful forms of detention that would be available on the passing of this Bill. If at the end of that time the Garda were to decide to repeat the whole process there would be nothing to prevent them from so doing. This would mean that the suspect would be held for 18 days in all although he need not have committed any offence or be charged with any offence. If this resolution is passed such a person would not have the right to go to the High Court or to any other court for the purpose of obtaining a declaration stating that he is being held wrongfully.

These are serious matters. They are matters to which not only many members of the public but many Members on the Government side of the House do not advert, the attitude being that what is in those Bills does not matter very much, that at present the people are very anxious about security in the light of the foul murder of the British Ambassador and because it was possible for some prisoners from Portlaoise to bring explosives into the Special Criminal Court building, to blow up the building and then for some of them to escape. Perhaps many people who have no experience of trying to deal with those kind of problems think that the only way of tackling the situation is by means of law. That is not so. It is a fundamental tenet of the efforts of anybody dealing with a situation of considerable crime or unrest that the law is only part of the armoury against what is happening and that the most important part of that armoury and of what can be done is the effectiveness on the ground of the police force. Much of that effectiveness is dependent on the morale of that police force at any given time.

In this respect it is no secret that, unfortunately, the morale of the Garda is not high at this time. The failures in security which Deputy Collins described earlier in some detail may not be unconnected with the unhappiness and dissatisfaction that exists in the Garda today. This unhappiness and dissatisfaction, which is on a rather wide scale, was not in existence some years ago. We have had no explanation either from the Minister for Justice or from the Government as to how these failures in security occurred. Despite all the precautions that apparently are being taken, prisoners were able to smuggle explosives into a court building. It is extraordinary, too, that within 100 yards of the gate of the residence of the British Ambassador a number of men, apparently during a number of days, planted a very large bomb in a culvert under the road which the Ambassador used almost every day. The British Ambassador would be alive today if there had been taken the sort of security precautions that one would have expected to be taken.

However, if the motion before us and the two Bills that are to follow had been in operation two months ago they would not have had the result of preserving the life of the Ambassador or of preserving the life of anybody else who may be killed within the next couple of months. Rather, the saving of lives depends on the activities of the police, on their ability to obtain information and on their effectiveness on the ground. The passing of new laws or the strengthening of existing ones has very little to do with the saving of lives. The fact that one is liable to be sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment or penal servitude instead of 15 years or 10 for one of these rather obscure crimes like unsurping the powers of government, which no one has ever been charged with as far as I know, has no effect at all on actual crimes. They do not, unfortunately, preserve life or limb or property. It is your Garda Síochána being as strong as possible that does that, and it is there that the concentration should be at the moment and not on law. Law is a smokescreen.

Most of the talk we have had on this debate today from the other side has been about the Provisional IRA. I agree they have been responsible for the great bulk of the troubles we have had in this country, North and South, over the past few years, but by no means exclusively so. If you were to take them as the chief culprits, unquestionably they are, and their activities prostitute the name and the tradition which they claim so illegally and improperly for themselves. Their sordid, sadistic and perverted cruelties prostitute what is a very glorious tradition. One cannot condemn them strongly enough. One has to recognise that they are the chief among more than one organisation which are carrying out appalling atrocities and besmirching the good name of our nation and our people. They seem to be the chief concern of the Government, but I would remind the members of the Government, particularly those of them who were here on the 29th and 30th November and 1st December, 1972—and I think they all were—that an Act was passed on that night of the 1st December in this House which makes it possible for members of that organisation to be prosecuted and to be convicted and to be sent to prison on conviction by a court set up under the Constitution. I have the figure—I think a similar figure was given by the Taoiseach here today—that since that time about 500 people—have been convicted in that court and the great bulk of them, I think, for membership of the IRA or of an illegal organisation which in practice seems to be invariably or almost invariably the IRA.

I would say to the Government, therefore, when they come along here with section 2 of the Emergency Powers Bill and with this motion, and feel it is essential for the purpose of Garda inquiries and so on that people would be detained for nine days, two under the Offences Against the State Act and seven under this Bill, that if, as they allege, and as I am sure is the case, the great bulk of these people who are committing these atrocities are members of the Provisional IRA, why not, at the expiration of 48 hours or before its expiration, arrest them formally and charge them with membership of the IRA? The Government are now proposing in the other Bill to increase the penalties to seven years. I do not know whether the court will follow that lead or not, because they have not seen fit, except in one single case that I know of, to impose a sentence greater than 12 months heretofore for membership of an illegal organisation. However, if they do, as a result of this proposal, which of course we support, impose heavier penalties, you have the situation that any member of the Provisional IRA can be convicted and imprisoned, provided of course the chief superintendent knows he is a member, and in most cases he would know.

I am now in the happy position in these benches of being able to talk, three-and-three-quarters years later, about the effect of the Offences Against the State Act, 1972, in practice. I was only able to talk about it in theory when I was under very considerable criticism from the present Ministers for Justice, Posts and Telegraphs, Foreign Affairs and the present Minister for virtually everything else. Since I was then only able to state what my belief was, I am very happy to be able to say here tonight that my beliefs as then expressed have proved to be true. I would invite the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach or any member of the Government or any Deputy supporting them to say to me now if there has been in the three-and-three-quarters years since that Bill was passed one person who was convicted of membership of an illegal organisation who said that he was wrongfully convicted or that he was not a member but was still convicted. There has not been one person who has said that, and I think we can safely take it that no injustice whatever was done by the passage of that Bill and a great deal was done to help this country by its passage. Fianna Fáil got very little help during the trying days and nights when they were attempting to get this Bill through this House and through the Seanad.

I would ask anyone who may have been here on those days of the 29th and 30th November and 1st December, 1972, to contrast the atmosphere that exists in this Chamber with the atmosphere of hate being spat across the floor of this House at me and at the members of the Fianna Fáil Party because we dared to put before the Parliament the Bill which subsequently became the Offences Against the State Act, 1972. Anyone who was here then could not but be very much impressed—indeed I would say amazed—at the calm atmosphere that is in this House today, that has permeated this debate today, the reasonableness of it, the refusal of the members of the Opposition, no matter what justification they have, and goodness knows we have plenty, to take it out on the hypocrites we see or we do not see, as the case may be, lined up in front of us, because I am afraid we do not see them. I have here Volume 264 of the Official Report of the 29th November onwards. If people had time to sit down and read large volumes, this could become a best seller, because that book, if it could be read in conjunction with today's debate, is the masterpiece of hypocrisy that not just this country but the whole world has ever seen. Never has such hypocrisy as screams from the pages of that book been known in the political life or any other aspect of the life of this country before.

The Deputy is making one mistake.

The Deputy should take his medicine.

The old order has changed.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy O'Malley without interruption.

As well as containing the various examples of unparalleled hypocrisy, which we must now deprecate, this Volume 264 is also notable in as much as it contains the famous statement of Deputy Stephen Coughlan that 80 per cent of the Irish people support the Provisional IRA. That is another bonus you got if you spent your 52½p to obtain this volume.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputy Coughlan allow Deputy O'Malley to continue?

One of the results of the passing of this motion is that it does not just allow the Bill which is on the Order Paper, the Emergency Powers Bill, 1976, to be passed in consequence. Its effects are not confined to just allowing that to be passed. There is to all intents and purposes no limit to what can be passed by way of legislation, provided of course the Oireachtas is prepared to pass it. There is no constitutional limitation once this is passed on what can be brought forward in addition to this Emergency Powers Bill which allows for the nine days' internment at a time.

What was passed—and I am of course in no way critical of it, it was vitally necessary at the time—was the Emergency Powers Act on 3rd September, 1939 which was amended from time to time and renewed each year until the end of the war. The last renewal was on 3rd September, 1945 and it expired altogether and was never renewed and could not be renewed, I suggest, as from 7th September, 1946. Perhaps people who are older may remember many of the things that were in it though people of my own age group or generation were barely in existence, if at all, at that time and would not be familiar with what was in it. There are four pages in section 2 of that Bill which would certainly raise the hair on your head.

Most of them diligently copied from British legislation.

Very probably, because the British probably had the same thing the day before I imagine and it was absolutely necessary. There was a war going on in Europe —just starting—but what is authorised there, what a Minister—and it could be any Minister—is authorised to do is incredible to our minds nowadays. That Bill enabled a Minister to do virtually anything: to have people tailed at will forever if he wanted to or for as long as the emergency lasted; to arrest them without warrant at any time; to have them moved anywhere he wanted to in the State and forbid them to live in certain places; to acquire without apparently any kind of compensation or anything else property or ships or aircraft of any kind by just walking in and asking; total censorship of the post and newspapers; complete control over information of all kinds that would be given out. There are pages and pages of it here.

It was all necessary, but the only reason that could have been passed— because, of course, it is a blatant contravention of our Constitution—was because a motion declaring a national emergency had been passed the previous day by both Houses, and that is what we are being asked to do here today. We are being asked to pass a similar motion to that passed on 2nd September, 1939. The effect of it would be the very same and we have no guarantee that some further Bill of a very Draconian kind indeed, quite different perhaps and very much more severe than this one, will not be brought forward next week, and if it is brought forward next week it will not require any motion to be passed because the motion which we are now being asked to pass remains there, in effect, until either the particular emergency is over or the Dáil and Seanad rescind it.

Unfortunately, one has to be realistic and say that it is not likely that the conflict in Northern Ireland will end tomorrow or next week or even next year. The suggestion has been made to me, and I do not think it is an outrageous one, that this Bill is really not terribly important—it is really internment, but it is not terribly important—and that this has been used as the vehicle to bring along a motion to declare a state of national emergency and that when that motion has been passed and when this Bill has been enacted, it perhaps might never be used to any great extent.

Then the real crunch will come. Then the real emergency which does exist in this country will come to be dealt with under emergency legislation. And of course everyone knows it, everyone on every side of this House and in every part of this country knows that the real emergency, which does unquestionably exist, is in the economy, not the imaginary one that we are supposed to be talking about here. And the consequences, and I am not just talking about the economic consequences but the consequences in terms of social unrest and upheaval and of possible violence, of the collapse of our economy which now seems to be imminent, may be enormous and it may be necessary to have these emergency powers in order to control the people after our economy breaks down and after we have got to the stage when we as a nation can no longer pay our civil servants, our Garda and our Army.

For example, the day could be approaching when we cannot pay our social welfare allowances because we have been paying them over the past 12 months or so only because we borrowed money abroad to pay them. We would have been unable to pay them if we had not borrowed money abroad on a vast scale in non-sterling currencies, which we will have to repay at a premium of up to 40 per cent.

This may be the truth of the situation because there is not a national emergency in any part of this country in the sense that was contemplated in Article 28.3.3º of our Constitution. There is no such emergency, and to describe the tragic and unfortunate happenings that are going on as being equivalent to a time of war or armed rebellion is not factually accurate. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach pointed out in his book, which I quoted before he came in, there is no fetter on the Oireachtas, which in practice means, of course, the Government, in declaring any given time to be a time of war or armed rebellion, and if Oireachtas Éireann so decide, the courts cannot challenge it afterwards. I cannot go along to the High Court and say there was no "time of war or armed rebellion".

That is Mr. de Valera's Constitution. That is the way Mr. de Valera wanted it.

But there is no obligation on the Government to use it in this way.

That is the Constitution.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary feel obliged to use it in this way?

(Interruptions.)

Why did you or your Government draw up the motion——

I am behind that motion but I quite agree that the Constitution as drafted leaves a lot to be desired. It should have been done in some other way.

I did not say that the Constitution leaves a lot to be desired. I pointed out what the Parliamentary Secretary, in his learned tome, had said and what the consequences of passing a motion such as this would be. The intent of the drafters of the Constitution—of course, it is well known that the late Mr. de Valera was the principal architect of that Constitution—was that it would be used as it was used on the one occasion when it was used, when this country was in the middle of a real and terrible emergency, not that it would be used by a lame Government which are now in a situation that the country is so crippled that they will resort to anything to get the people's minds away from the reality of the fact that the economy of our nation is about to fall asunder.

Why, then, did Fianna Fáil fail to rescind this motion 15 years ago after the war had ended?

Why did two Coalition Taoiseachs fail to rescind it also for nine-and-a-half years?

(Interruptions.)

I was making a grand speech until the professor came in. Go back now and take another class somewhere else.

(Interruptions.)

We were confronted with a situation we never foresaw.

It boomeranged on you.

Deputy O'Malley, without interruption.

The book was in 1967.

He never thought he would be in that hot seat when he wrote that. Nobody will believe the next one.

I suggest they stick to the Parliamentary Secretary's novels.

Before I finish I want to say something about the other Bill which has been dealt with in some detail by the Taoiseach in his opening speech. In general, this party welcomes it. I do not see much point in increasing a two-year penalty which has never been used, or only half used, to seven years. Nonetheless if it discourages anyone from joining illegal organisations, I would be happy to go along with it.

As Deputy Lynch said, there are two sections about which we have certain reservations. The extraordinarily wide drafting of section 3 seems to me to be undesirable. Unquestionably it must catch under its provisions all kinds of people who are not worth catching—people who have taken too much drink in a pub and make a remark they would not make if they were in control of their senses. This is not an infrequent happening. We have a number of militants who are prepared to die for Ireland and see everyone else die for her when they have consumed a certain amount of liquor. These people are usually fools, and I do not think it is worth charging them with such an elaborate offence for which they might get ten years' imprisonment.

The other section which gives us a fair amount of concern is section 15. I am aware of what the difficulties were because I can recall in 1972 and 1973 often thinking that if the Army had these powers they would be a tremendous help to the Garda. I had to weigh the advantages of helping the gardaí without Garda supervision, with the disadvantages. Unquestionably there are enormous disadvantages. I do not know if we went formally to the Government with it but I decided against it. I believe I was right then in not agreeing to such a provision notwithstanding the difficulties I know exist. To give powers of arrest and search to people who are not subject to police discipline is potentially a very dangerous thing.

A member of the Garda Síochána undergoes a fairly detailed course of training, specifically in regard to arresting and searching people. He joins the Garda for life. It is his career. Ninety-five per cent of them serve right through to retirement age. The greatest penalty that could be imposed on a member of the Garda Síochána is that he could be dismissed from the force. If he does anything improper in the course of his duty, the ultimate sanction against him is that he is dismissed. That occasionally happens. Each year there may be six or 12 men out of 8,000 dismissed.

With a soldier it is totally different. The Army is not normally looked upon as a career by a young soldier. It is by the officers but not by the NCOs until they get older. The young soldier normally joins up for as short a period as three years and does not regard it in his earlier days as a career. It is no great cause of difficulty to him if he is dismissed from the Army.

I think the Deputy is wrong about that. It is a black mark for life.

It is nothing as grievous as it would be to a member of the Garda Síochána. The training of the Army is different. They are not trained to deal with the public on a personal basis. They have no wish to be involved in this kind of work and the gardaí have no wish, in spite of the pressures they are under, to have them involved.

We now have the situation where a 17-year-old soldier will have power to search a car load of people which may, in a particular instance, be three or four elderly women. There is no limitation on the method or form of search he can carry out. I regard this as very undesirable.

I think the Army had those powers during the civil war and the emergency.

War is a different matter. I would get through what I have to say much quicker if I were not constantly interrupted. I regard the proposal to give powers to search women to young soldiers as very undesirable and it should not be there. The section should be taken out altogether or amended in such a way that it would not give rise to disquiet throughout the country which is there at the moment. This is a genuine and understandable disquiet and should be met properly and fairly.

Apart from those reservations, this party see no great objection to the Criminal Law Bill. It is not a part of the so-called imaginary national emergency which we are being asked to bring into force. What we are primarily dealing with tonight is the question of this emergency, as it is described. I believe there is no such thing. The situation is no worse now than it was a month ago. If there was an emergency in the sense that is now being described. Why was this House not brought back five or six weeks ago? Is it so urgent that we cannot wait until the middle of October—only six weeks away—but not so urgent that we could wait six weeks or more since the events which have allegedly given rise to this? I do not believe a national emergency as contemplated in Article 28 exists. I think the Government realise that but are bringing forward this measure for their own purposes, whatever they may be. Those purposes, on the face of it, are not what the Government allege.

I have no objection to being here today. This party would like to be here not discussing imaginary matters but discussing the fact that there are 112,500 people registered as unemployed at present, and discussing a Bill showing how the Government are going to deal with that real national emergency and the fact that we have borrowed nearly £2,000 million over the last three-and-a-half years, rather than this imaginary national emergency, which will bring in internment for a seven-or nine-day period on the quiet, under another name, in circumstances that, on the Taoiseach's own admission will very rarely arise, and cannot really be of assistance to the Garda who already have ample powers under section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, to hold people for a reasonable period if they find it necessary or desirable in the interests of national security to do so.

For these reasons I urge the House not to pass the motion as originally drafted but pass it, as proposed by Deputy Lynch's amendment which I think is a sensible appraisal and a realistic assessment of the situation that exists at the present time and has a much greater grasp of the realities, rather than the airy fairy motion to declare a so-called national emergency when nobody believes one exists.

I shall be mercifully brief. I will start on two very cheerful notes before I become in any way vitriolic. A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I appreciate the dilemma of yourself and your distinguished colleague in deciding who to call in this debate. Not merely are we bedevilled here with Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour but we have some strange detached personalities like Deputy Blaney and Deputy Keaveney on the one side, who are half in half out of the Fianna Fáil Party and people like myself who are half in half out of the Labour Party and it must stretch Parliamentary precedents to a very high degree to determine at what point precisely we come up in the interesting game of bingo which the Ceann Comhairle is expected to play. I am grateful, therefore, for being called. I could not help remarking on a chance phrase of Deputy O'Malley's about the power of search given to young gardaí upon young women.

Old women, I think, was the remark.

I hope the remark will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended. I turn my mind back to a period when I was working on the Blueshirt movement and the Fianna Fáil Party forced through this House the Removal of Uniforms Bill and a senior Fine Gael Deputy, whose name I will have pleasure in giving Deputy O'Malley afterwards, argued that this was a writ empowering the Garda Síochána to tear the upper garments from the young Fine Gael women of Ireland. I thought of that with a certain amount of mirth.

It never got through the Seanad. They were safe.

The Seanad was abolished because of its unco-operativeness. That was the way Mr. de Valera dealt with opposition.

With due respect to the Parliamentary Secretary, this is not a debate between historians. With due respect to the Parliamentary Secretary and to a number of speakers who contributed to this debate, I find this debate totally confusing. I was recalled from my well-earned holidays on the understanding that this House was debating three motions, one designed to bring a state of emergency before the House and a second and third entitled the Emergency Powers Bill and the Criminal Law Bill. For those reasons I intended to speak today solely about the introduction of a measure to declare a state of emergency. I thought the other two items came separately. I have a large brief here, full of quotations from my colleagues about this, that, and the other, about the Offences Against the State Act, 1972, and about the economic situation but I did not think that this was the time or the place to bring them forward, yet I have had the rather mixed pleasure of listening to a debate which has ranged over such issues as school leavers obtaining jobs, the level of unemployment, the possibility of a solution to partition in the North and the provisions contained in the two other Bills, items 2 and 3 on the Order Paper, with reference to arrest without charge for seven days, on which my colleague, Deputy Blaney, dwelt at great length and with great eloquence for about an hour. I understood those two Bills were to be debated separately. Perhaps they were to be debated together but at this stage all we were debating was whether or not we would declare a state of emergency in this country. I would be grateful for a direction on this matter, because if I am in error, if I am entitled to speak about anything and everything for the rest of the time I will gladly talk this House out until 8.30 p.m. and make my speech about the other two Bills, but my understanding of the situation was that the other two Bills were to be taken separately.

The motion before the House, as the Deputy is aware, is No. 1 at the present time. At times there have been references by Deputies to the other legislation which will be coming before the House later but it was pointed out to Deputies that we were not engaged in an economic debate, that we were engaged in Item No. 1. There was a general reference to the other Bills but they will be coming at a later stage.

Will it be possible for me to return to them?

The Deputy will have the opportunity to deal with both these Bills.

Sometimes, I really began to wonder if I understood fully what we were debating in this House— unemployment, school leaving age, the condition of the North, the Provisional IRA or whether we were debating the amendment to the Constitution. At other times I felt we were indulging in a rather unreal debate designed primarily for international consumption. It does not really matter to me whether I live under a state of emergency declared in 1939 when I was four or under a state of emergency declared in 1976 when I am 41 and the passions aroused on both sides of the House as to the rights and wrongs of these two measures defeat me. It may be correct that, as the Fianna Fáil Party argues, we are engaged here in a demonstration designed to prove to our friends in Great Britain that we are more lethal in our attitude to law and order than our predecessors were. It may be true or it may be false, I do not know. As far as I am concerned if these measures which are before the House are Draconian, then the measures put before the House in 1939 were Draconian and they may have justified a Draconian existence, until my dear friend Adolf Hitler met his untimely end in 1945, but their Draconian quality was something which both the Fianna Fáil Party and two successive Coalition Governments managed to live with and not get particularly disturbed about in all the period which passed since 1939. As far as I am concerned we are discussing one of the simplest of measures. We are discussing a measure which if it has a fault is a fault which accrues more to the honesty and tidy-mindedness of somebody in the Attorney General's Office or the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, across whose benighted mind has occurred the thought that a state of emergency dating from 1976 was more logical than a state of emergency dating from 1939. As far as I am concerned I have been living under a state of emergency since I was four so that I will not find the declaration particularly novel. My present intention is to abstain because I regard this as a nonissue, as a non-debate. If I may be so offensive to my colleagues, I regard it as a non-controversy. If, on the other hand Deputy Kelly, the Parliamentary Secretary, requires my suede shoes for some numerical purpose, no doubt I shall duly deliver them as required. He made the point very well that, in fact, the motion before the House could be deemed to be unnecessary, that the Act of 1939 was adequate for all the purposes he requires. The only point on which he might be held up to ridicule is that in his best known book on the Irish Constitution he himself derided the fact that we have lived so long under this state of emergency.

I think the Parliamentary Secretary, who has now re-entered the Chamber, deserves a few gentle shafts of irony for his academic errors perhaps in that quite correctly defined standard textbook on Irish constitutional history but for people to say here that they are going to be subjected to Draconian measures which deny us our legal rights because a state of emergency which existed in 1939 is going to be declared again in 1976 is like somebody saying: "This is the first time I was told that the world is round. I have never believed in the Copernican theory; I have always believed in the flat earth. Suddenly, to my horror and consternation

I find that Columbus discovered America." I fear I find the crocodile tears of some of my colleagues and particularly some of my Fianna Fáil colleagues as to the sudden disappearance of their constitutional rights that is going to take place if this vote occurs tomorrow or the next day, slightly improbable because the fact that this room is hemispherical is a fact that limited visual ability makes quite clear to me and to inscribe it on tablets of stone at the instigation of Deputy Kelly does not cause me any particular disquiet.

I should like to keep the two issues clear and here is where I put my money where my mouth is. I do not quite understand what the Fianna Fáil Party are doing. They are denouncing as Draconian a measure which re-enacts something which they enacted in 1939 and which they lived with for the ensuing 40 years without finding it particularly Draconian. If we lived in Britain, I would regard this as an enabling measure designed to bring in the other two Bills and it is these two Bills which frighten me, not this measure which is only a piece of paper as Chamberlain said when he came back from Munich. It does not matter. It is only a legal figment, and people with legal qualifications know this as well as I do, whether this country declares a state of emergency or not. I think it was one of the famous triad of Dicey, Bagshot and Jennings who said the function of the politician is to tell the civil servant that up with which the people will not put—if the House can follow that; it is rather convoluted. No matter what you write down here about there being a state of emergency, if the people are not prepared to be dragooned into concentration camps because they are Jews or because they have blonde hair or something, nothing will alter that. So, a declaration of a state of emergency whether in 1939 or in 1976 does not matter to me and if the Fianna Fáil Party which held office without a break from 1932 to 1948 did not notice that the second world war ended in 1945, that is their good luck, and good luck to them if they managed to keep the state of emergency running from 1945 up to the present day. And good luck also to the late Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, that he did not notice either. I did notice: I was young enough to notice but I do think we should keep the two issues separate.

I have been asked to explain what I am going to do. On this my instinct is to abstain because I regard it as a non-issue. My instinct on the other two Bills is very different. I should like to find some people either on this side of the House or opposite who would declare that the provisions of the other two Bills which I am not going to discuss—I shall stick to the motion before us—are intolerable. Nothing I have heard from Deputy Collins, Deputy O'Malley or Deputy Lynch has suggested to me that I need expect any kind of reassurance. Why should I? After all, these two Bills are the offspring of an Act which the Fianna Fáil Party brought in and against which the Labour Party voted as a Bill. I shall be first if the opportunity arises to remind my colleagues that we voted viciously against the Bill and they are now putting it into operation and adding teeth to it which it never before possessed. I find that a twist of conscience which I have difficulty in living with and if the opportunity arises—if I am in Europe I shall come back—I shall make that point as savagely and as unpleasantly as I can make it. But I will not weep crocodile tears about this figment of a constitutional lawyer's imagination, a declaration of emergency.

There was a very interesting interchange between different speakers. Deputy Collins was one; there were others. They raised the issue that there should be no declaration of emergency because we were not in a state of war. I am glad that Deputy Brennan with whom I have never had a harsh word has come back into the House because I want to give one quotation from something he said in 1972 in that celebrated debate from which we are all quoting. It is at column 423 of Volume 264.

Mr. J. Brennan : ... There is no choice: one is either for law and order or against it. If one is for it, then it is the duty of Parliament to declare war.

Dr. Thornley: War?

Mr. J. Brennan: Yes.

If we are at war I should like to know precisely with whom we are at war. Are we at war with those Deputy Blaney speaks about? Are we at war with the British, the Danes or with whom?

I will not preach on these things or present myself as the conscience of this House, although I know that is normal parliamentary procedure. The Fianna Fáil Party and Deputy Blaney asked us to look again at this matter, this tiny piece of paper which declares a state of emergency and which I admit may gain us a bad press in the rest of the world which may discourage the holiday trade if it gives the impression that the Irish are at each other's throats. I admit Deputy Blaney had a point there but I would like members of the Fianna Fáil Party to look at the two Bills which will be put before the House if this motion is carried because this is not even an enabling Bill. As Deputy Kelly has pointed out, it is not really necessary; we could go ahead with the other two Bills without passing this motion. It is, perhaps, too much tribute to Deputy Kelly's honesty and precision as an academic that he insists on clearing the constitutional air before he brings to the House Bills which give the police powers which, like Deputy Blaney, I do not think they should possess, powers of seven days' detention without trial, powers multiplying sentences to a point where they reach the savage in jails which we are not permitted to visit.

I shall have much to say much later about this. So far this debate has been to me to a great extent a non-debate, a debate in which too many Deputies have taken the opportunity to lecture their constituents on such issues as employment and job taking. I am sorry if I appear to be purely academic, if I appear to assume the role of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Professor Kelly, who so frequently is charged with telling Members what to do as if they were in a classroom. I am sorry if I take that role.

The two Bills mean something to me. I got a £10 fine for appearing on an illegal platform. Two friends of mine paid it, each separately within 24 hours. The proposed Bill will multiply that to a 12-months' sentence. It multiplies everything else. Let Members examine their own consciences. As Deputy Blaney asked, how would Members like to be committed to imprisonment on the say-so of a garda, no matter how high his rank? Should any garda have the right to ask any Member of this House: "Are you a member of the Irish Republican Army?" Or to say to a Member: "I know you are a member of the Irish Republican Army". For all I know, Deputies are all members of the Irish Republican Army and, for all I know, I am the only one here who is not. If such a question were addressed to me I hope that somewhere in the confines of this Falstaffian girth I should summon up sufficient courage to say: "Mind your own business. Prove it. It is common law that you prove it". When the members of the Fianna Fáil Party have finished shouting about the piece of, to my mind appropriate, if rather irrelevant, tidying up of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Professor Kelly, let them consult their own consciences as to what the Act they introduced in 1972 is now breeding on this side of the House in 1976 by a band of people who have deserted the principles they enunciated four years ago.

I support the Fianna Fáil amendment which is the important part of this discussion. The last speaker, Deputy Thornley, was being naive when he said it was of little relevance. Surely he is aware, irrespective of what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach said earlier, that on the motion moved by the Taoiseach, which we are discussing in conjunction with this amendment, hangs the possibility of bringing in the legislation to which Deputy Thornley says he violently objects.

It is not correct to argue that the emergency declared on the outbreak of a world war in 1939 validates the proposed legislation we may be discussing later this week, or next week, if our amendment to this motion is defeated. Surely the Taoiseach was aware and had sufficient legal advice available to him to prove he could not hang this legislation on the emergency declared in a completely different set of circumstances in 1939. It was then absolutely essential to suspend the Constitution in order to declare a state of emergency.

Deputy Thornley must know that the purpose of this motion is to ensure that nobody can test in our courts the constitutionality of legislation to deal with unsubstantiated circumstances and to say, therefore, that this is unimportant is avoiding the issue. The proposed legislation depends on this motion being passed and Deputy Thornley must be as well aware of that as are other Members.

I endorse the serious objections of my party, unanimously agreed by our front bench and by our party, to this action of the Government at this juncture. I believe it is doing nothing but creating unnecessary hysteria. Circumstances do not warrant this action. Indeed, in the situation at the moment it is something to be avoided. There have been signs recently of action being taken in the interests of promoting peace. That action could be nullified by the introduction of this legislation. I refer to the demonstrations throughout the country by women who are anxious for peace.

While the murder of the ambassador is to be deplored that tragic incident is not of itself sufficient to justify invoking the proposed powers. I heard the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy FitzGerald, speaking from the pulpit in St. Patrick's Cathedral; he pointed out that that tragic incident had resulted in creating a greater harmony and co-operation and a deeper understanding between ourselves and the British rather than the effect which, he said, it was hoped to bring about.

Why is it now decided this type of legislation is necessary? If the Taoiseach were able to point out that the legislation would in any way prevent such happenings as those to which he referred, one might see some justification for it but no one can support this legislation on the ground that it will result in a better record of crime detection. All this legislation will do is cause hysteria and panic and that at a time when we should be seeking to pour oil on troubled waters, so to speak. Above all, we should not proclaim to the world that we have an emergency here when there are actual signs of the situation easing. We have heard a good many quotations already in the debate and I do not propose to repeat them.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1st September, 1976.
Top
Share