Deputy Dowling gave me notice of his intention to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of Question No. 6 which appeared on today's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate. - Parachutist Activities.
In regard to the regrettable accident in which Corporal Michael Rouine lost his life, I should like to extend my sympathy to his family.
The reply which the Taoiseach gave me today can only be described as waffle. There are a number of questions to which we need positive answers. We have been told that a court of inquiry is to be held. Is it to be held because of this question? What is the purpose of this training? The Taoiseach gave a number of indications in his reply, but before dealing with them I want to know why the training was taking place in Peterborough. This question is uppermost in the minds of a number of people as a result of the corporal's death in Peterborough Parachute Centre. What is the purpose of sending members of the Defence forces to England for training? Are members of the British Army trained at this centre? Will this training be extended in relation to Border contacts and are members of the SAS trained there?
The Taoiseach said today that he was speaking about parachuting, not paratroopers. I mentioned paratroopers in my supplementary question. Parachuting indicates a person, civilian or otherwise, jumping from a plane, and paratroopers are military personnel. I wonder why the Taoiseach made the distinction in his reply today. In his reply the Taoiseach said that these people were being trained as instructors. Who were they being trained to instruct? Why was a member of the Signal Corps chosen for this training instead of a member of the Air Corps? Are we establishing a special service for the training of parachutists?
I believe in Army efficiency and adventure training, but it must have a productive result. To jump out of a window on to a mattress only proves that a person can jump from a first or second storey on to a mattress. If there is no productive end, it is a useless exercise. Perhaps the Taoiseach has bigger things in mind in relation to parachuting, or will it be just another club, such as the Sub-Aqua Club or the Parachute Club in the Curragh? Were the parachutists in the Curragh not competent to train the corporal who died in Peterborough? I should like to know where the centre——
The Deputy will appreciate that I gave him permission to raise the subject matter of the circumstances in which the corporal lost his life. He has certainly strayed from the subject matter. He must confine his remarks to the subject matter of the question.
The subject matter relates to these aspects——
The circumstances in which the corporal lost his life is the subject matter.
These questions were not answered by the Taoiseach. He did indicate that the Director of Training lays down guidelines for the courses. If guidelines have been laid down I should like to have a copy of the directive that is issued each year by the Director of Training. I should also like to know when the Director of Training was advised on this issue by the Army Council. There are other places in which parachutists could be trained; indeed, they could be trained here. Why spend public money abroad unless it was a secret mission? There was no indication given beforehand that parachute training would take place in Britain. Was the equipment that was used by the corporal the property of the Defence Forces or the property of the Peterborough Parachute Centre? There are many questions to be answered because of the widespread unease in regard to the corporal's death. Perhaps the Taoiseach can tell us where it is intended to locate the instruction base and the type of equipment to be used there. If this training is of military value there may well be some effort to develop it on a large scale. I do not think that is practical or necessary. There are other matters more important in relation to our own problem of security.
I am afraid the Deputy is straying from the subject matter of this question.
I am not straying from the subject matter.
That is a matter for the Chair.
The circumstances are the reason why this type of training and alternative types of training and exercise should replace parachutes in military measures. This is the important aspect.
The subject matter of the question is clear.
Of course it is clear. a Cheann Comhairle. It is a statement of the circumstances under which he lost his life and it is reasonable to ask why. In asking why one must probe into other factors than the fact that a parachute did not open. It is reasonable to ask the questions I put to the Taoiseach. Maybe there is an explanation for all these questions. It is necessary and desirable that they be cleared up at the earliest possible moment without hysteria and with the greatest possible speed so as to allay the fears that might be in some minds, the fears that I have outlined.
In conclusion I want to say that members of the Defence Forces themselves feel that it may be the development of just another club within the Defence Forces. There is the Parachute Club in the Curragh. Is this to be another club that would be singled out for special mention and special praise in relation to this activity? It is on the cards that it is not going to have the widespread effect that other types of adventure training would have that would be of lasting military value and could be passed on to the great bulk of the personnel who will participate in adventure training of one type or another. It would be interesting to know why the Air Corps was not selected and what would be the base.
Again, I ask the Taoiseach if he could make available this directive from the Director of Training that would specify that this training be carried out on the advice of the Army Council. Could he tell us when the Army Council last met and if they so advised him as indicated in the Taoiseach's reply to the supplementary question? Possibly the Taoiseach may be misled. Maybe my feeling is wrong but I feel that the Army Council had not advised. I would like to see the directive and I would like the matters I have outlined cleared up at the earliest possible moment.
First of all, I would like to say that the Minister for Defence expressed his sympathy to the parents and family of the late Corporal Rouine on the tragedy which occurred and resulted in his death. I would like to echo that sympathy because it is always a source of regret when a member of the Defence Forces is either injured or suffers, as in this case, death.
There is no mystery whatever about this course. Deputy Dowling on a number of occasions said that there was a mystery about the fact that Army personnel were sent on a course to Britain and implied that there was in that decision some mystery or some unexplained circumstance that, according to him, caused concern to him and some unnamed persons outside.
It has been a fact since the establishment of the State that certain members of the Defence Forces have gone abroad on courses. In the 1920s they went abroad to the United States and, I understand, also to Britain. In the 1930s and 1940s they went to Britain. The Deputy will be aware that during a considerable portion of that time there was a Fianna Fáil Government in office, and Army personnel went abroad on these courses and there was nothing about it other than the fact that it had been the practice on a number of occasions to send Army personnel on courses in the places I have mentioned. Some, I understand, went on courses to the Continent as well.
This training course was approved by the Army Council for adventure training. I quote here from their report of a meeting held on the 28th November, 1975:
Parachuting. There are now two qualified instructors in the Army, but as there are three clubs, there is a need for a further four instructors... There is also a grave shortage of equipment.... Both these matters will impose restrictions in training programmes this year. Nevertheless it is hoped to run an Army course in CTC midyear, and details of this course will be forthcoming later.
The military authorities state that the attendance of the personnel at a parachute course would have the two-fold benefit of providing the Defence Forces with a measure of independence from civilian instructors and enabling the Army to train their own instructors in the future. Sanction for this was provided in the general sanction which was given by the Minister for Finance on the 18th April, 1957, for the assignment of officers and men of the Permanent Defence Force to courses and visits, subject to the appropriate provision of the Vote for Defence not being exceeded in any year.
Pursuant to that general approval, and in line with the recommendations of the military authorities on foot of the information which I have given that there were insufficient parachuting instructors available, three Army personnel were sent on the particular course. This course is provided under the sealed orders given to the Chief of Staff by the Minister which provides for the fighting efficiency and training of Defence Forces. Such schemes or courses may provide, as I have mentioned, for training outside of the State. One such course was that to which Corporal Rouine was detailed in Peterborough. Adventure training also includes canoeing, mountaineering, and orienteering, and it is undertaken under the general direction of the Director of Training who, as I mentioned earlier, is advised by the Army Council on these matters and he is responsible to the Chief of Staff. The military objective of adventure training is the development of such military qualities as initiative, resourcefulness, endurance and leadership. Generally speaking, the persons who undergo an adventure training course abroad do so so that they can instruct members of the Defence Forces, and it was for the purpose, as I have mentioned, of increasing the number of instructors in the Defence Forces that the personnel concerned were assigned to this course.
There is no mystery about it. It has been common practice from the establishment of the State to send at intervals personnel of the Defence Forces and it has happened over the years under different Governments at different times. There is nothing unusual in this. It is deeply regretted that it resulted in the death of Corporal Rouine, but risks of this sort are part and parcel of Army life. Unfortunately, on occasion tragedies occur.
These are the full circumstances of how Corporal Rouine as well as the other members of the Defence Forces were on this course.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 8th December, 1976.