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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Feb 1977

Vol. 296 No. 11

Private Members' Business. - Ballyfermot (Dublin) Educational Survey: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Dowling on 15th February, 1977:
That Dáil Éireann takes note of the recently published survey of the Educational Sub-Committee of the Ballyfermot Community Association and requests the Government to initiate as a matter of urgency special programmes to provide employment and educational opportunities in Ballyfermot and in other areas of Dublin City where a similar need exists.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Association" and substitute the following:
"and notes the Government measures in the recent Budget, including employment premiums, the premium scheme for school-leavers and youth-training and employment schemes, all of which will be of particular benefit in areas in Dublin such as those covered by the Association's survey."
—(Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education.)

Yesterday I had the opportunity of paying a tribute to the people who produced the report which gave rise to this motion. It is well to give praise where praise is due. This motion is an example of how democracy works at local community level. Whether you agree with the report or not, it contains a great deal of wisdom. The people who produced this report asked Deputy Dowling to consider the possibility of tabling a motion in Dáil Éireann in Private Members' time. For that reason alone, apart altogether from what the motion seeks, the idea is a good one and is an example to other communities who have thought out their problems as well as the Ballyfermot Community Association did that the Dáil Chamber is not the preserve of Deputies only. If a local community request their Deputy to raise a matter in the Dáil which is considered reasonable—in the final analysis Deputies have to make their own decisions—there is no reason why he should not articulate a point of view on their behalf.

Deputy Dowling put down this motion in a non-political fashion. It should have been met by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education in the spirit in which it was moved, but it was not. It was treated with an attempt at high political manifestation. Last night we were treated to what could only be described as an extension of the budget debate. As I said, this motion was put down in a non-political fashion. I am not making any apologies for being a politician. I am very proud of the profession, as is everybody else in this House. In no way am I underrating the profession of politics.

This motion was put down in a community non-political spirit. That is the way Deputy Dowling sought to have it debated but, unfortunately, it was treated in a very high political fashion by the Parliamentary Secretary who told us that there are some plans some where for the college which the community association are seeking. We were told that the Harp site where the community association are seeking to build their community monument is available and that the Parliamentary Secretary is willing to build the community college there.

Deputy Wilson and I asked the Parliamentary Secretary at what stage was the building of the community school. We were told, not directly, that there was not even a brick upon a brick, not even the foundations have been dug. However, it is all down on paper in the Department. We hope and pray that the reality to which this motion will give effect will lead to the building of a community centre and the provision of other desirable amenities in a built-up area.

My views are that planning in the past, present and future in any built-up area must include a number of very important items. It should be mandatory on local authorities and consequently on the builder—I do not want to interfere with the concept of private enterprise—to include in their plans for a built-up area, whether it be a private or local authority estate, a community centre and adequate open space surrounding that centre. If we are sincere about integrating our old people into the community—in some areas we have a high aged population, not necessarily in newly built-up areas—we should have a special care centre for them. Equally important, we should have creches for those women who want to go out to work, as is their constitutional entitlement, in which to leave their children during the day.

These are some of the ingredients which should be included in the planning of a housing estate. One does not build a housing estate and say "We have built 150 or 200 houses and so say all of us" and go on to the next project. That is not what a housing estate should be about. It should be a thriving community with these additional features. One hears very often in suburban and city areas that people do not know their next-door neighbours. One hears of people who have been living beside one another for months, or possibly years, and they never get to know their neighbours. The reason for that is a lack of community awareness and community facilities.

We are discussing now the published report of the educational sub-committee of the Ballyfermot Community Association. Among other things, the report requests the Government to initiate as a matter of urgency, a special programme to provide employment and educational opportunities in Ballyfermot and in other areas of Dublin city where a similar need exists. As I said yesterday, as a Dublin man I am concerned with any part of the city or county of Dublin. As a representative of a constituency, elected and sent to this House, one's first duty lies in one's constituency. I know from experience that throughout the city and county of Dublin similar problems exist but that is no consolation to the people of Ballyfermot.

The Parliamentary Secretary suggested, again as an extension of the budget, that there will be a number of youth employment programmes, employment premium schemes and so on. We wish him and his Government in the national interest the best of luck so far as the success of those programmes is concerned. Like the phantom community centre on the Harp site, we suspect that this time next year we will be talking about a considerably worse unemployment situation. The real problem is that while the youth unemployment is a national malaise, it is, nevertheless, a city and county disease in the sense that there is a greater burden on the youth in the Dublin city and county areas than in any other part of Ireland.

This is not in any way to under-rate the problems which relate to other areas but the greater burden of youth unemployment is in the Dublin city and county area. This is a very worthwhile report and is a document of high sociological value. It indicates that the youth unemployment situation in the Ballyfermot area is extremely serious and it has one of the highest elements of unemployed school leavers in the city and county of Dublin. This is an indictment of something or somebody and one has only to look around to see who is responsible. In the final analysis the buck stops with the Government. This is what motivated the Fianna Fáil Party in tabling this Private Members' motion.

I do not want to take up the time of the House but I want to remind the Parliamentary Secretary once more that we need, first of all, adequate facilities. We need good facilities in which to educate our children. The psychologists will tell us the kind of accommodation we need. I am not an expert in that field although I know what my own children need in the context of educational facilities and I certainly believe they have such facilities at the national school which the two youngest children attend. Having provided proper facilities, the proper number of class rooms and proper utensils for the pursuit of learning then there must be an appropriate number of children in each class. I understand from an expert that the appropriate number for the correct teaching of children is 25, at the maximum. The Parliamentary Secretary might remember that in quite a number of cases in Dublin city and county there are classes where there are 35, 40 or 45 children being taught by one teacher. This is a problem for a young teacher who may be just out of a teacher training college. He or she must establish authority, though it must be very difficult in a class of 45. The reality of such a situation is that the teacher spends most of the time attempting to control the class to the detriment of the learning process.

The Deputy might now make his concluding remarks.

In such a class of 45 children there may be a number of slow learners. They go through the murder machine, as Pearse would have it, due to the fact that they are overlooked in the context of such a large number of children. It is the system which is at fault and only the Government can cure those faults. We on this side of the House would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take the view that the resolution was motivated in a sincere fashion.

I should like to commence my contribution this evening by commending the Ballyfermot Community Association on the social awareness and concern which is so evident in their 1976 survey of education and employment opportunities for school leavers. The on-going involvement of this association in social issues affecting the Ballyfermot area is very well known and is a fine example of what community self-help can and should be all about. They are to be congratulated particularly on the comprehensive scope of the 1976 survey, which not only sets out the basic facts on the massive problems of education and unemployment we face in this area but which seeks to place these problems in the overall context of the economy where the real decisions are made as to who gets what, when and where in our society. They have shown that they are interested in the causes as well as the effects of the problems facing the people of Ballyfermot and the nation as a whole.

The survey is most interesting in tracing the educational and employment opportunities and experiences of a random sample of school leavers. These school leavers were in the system in 1969. What is significant is the fact that the report reveals the existence of what I would call a massive education gap, a gap between the education opportunity in Ballyfermot and that in the wealthier communities and also a gap between the course content of education and the demands of the working world. According to the survey, 69 per cent of the school leavers had left the education system before reaching the age of 16 and only 5.6 per cent had obtained the leaving certificate. These statistics are corroborated in the 1972 study of educational opportunity in Dublin by Father Michael McGreil which showed that only 14.5 per cent of the people in Ballyfermot had been able to continue their education beyond primary school, while in another housing area—geographically not ten miles away but socially over 1,000— we find that 75.6 per cent of the people have been able to avail of post primary education. To me this gap of 60 per cent in the margin of educational opportunity in our society is a damning indictment of our system. The Ballyfermot Community Association survey showed that the intermediate certificate had little relevance, if any, to employment opportunities, particularly in the case of girl school leavers, most of whom were found to be working in unskilled or semi-skilled employment. The survey also showed that those with vocational education had wider opportunities.

Even more revealing was the fact that 75 per cent of these people had no career guidance whatsoever and a large majority of those in the sample felt that their present employment bore no relationship to what they had done at school. These are the signs of the growing gap between the world of education and the world of work which is making it even more difficult even for those who are able to obtain a general or intermediate certificate to find gainful or useful employment.

Besides the other problems which were highlighted by the survey it also showed that 42 per cent lived in houses with ten people or more, again showing the terrible disadvantage of people in this area. The conclusions are that the education gap should be bridged by the following measures and it is very important to put them on the record of this House. First, there must be a new emphasis on vocational education through the building of this community college on the Harp site and the establishment of a voluntary local education authority. Ballyfermot must be made an educational priority area and a comprehensive grants system must be introduced covering all third level education and unemployment among school leavers, which the survey places at 23 per cent, must be tackled.

The problem of providing the young people of Ballyfermot with relevant education and suitable employment is hardly new. Indeed, the Ballyfermot Community Association published the first report of their education sub-committee in January, 1972 and they followed that with a second report in July, 1972. These reports covered the same problems highlighted in their 1976 survey. They were lack of vocational education for girls, a huge drop out rate in primary and post-primary level and the need for a new revised community orientated curriculum. One of the major recommendations in these reports was a community college with genuine community involvement. The project is only now under way. At that time I did not notice a flurry of activity in the Fianna Fáil camp aimed at solving these problems. We must remember that they were highlighted in 1969 and 1972. Nobody can convince me that these were not pressing problems in 1972 just as nobody can convince me that they are not pressing problems in 1977.

The problems which school-leavers are presently facing are a direct consequence of the economic and social policies of past as well as present governments. To attempt to cloud this in a shower of party political propaganda is an insult to the intelligence of the people of Ballyfermot. I feel it is rank opportunism. It makes the problem of youth, youth education and youth unemployment a political football to be kicked back and forth between Government and Opposition benches. The trouble is that politicians become distracted by petty, political point-scoring while the youth of the country are left simmering in discontent in the face of the continued disinterest and neglect on the part of the establishment.

My concern is with what is presently being done to alleviate the problems of youth, which are so clearly placed before us by this survey and how I can bring my weight to bear so that more and more is done to rectify what to me seems a scandalous situation where over the years, in good times as well as bad, the young people of Ballyfermot have been denied the educational and employment opportunities which should be theirs as of right. I am not breaking a confidence in saying that in July last year, in common with Members of the Parliamentary Labour Party, I was asked to submit proposals for initiatives on the problems facing the country. Each Member did so. I put forward the following proposals:

(1) The Employment Premium Scheme should be targeted more directly on our most pressing problem, the unemployed school-leavers.

(2) Employers should be given an added incentive to hire school-leavers by raising the age level at which social insurance has to be paid, that is from 16 to 21 years, as an incentive to employers to employ school leavers.

(3) The Government should encourage a programme of phased early retirement at no loss of pay to open up places for youth in the job market.

(4) We should institute an emergency public works programme on the basis of Local Authority (Improvement) Schemes where direct labour could be employed in community projects.

(5) As an immediate emergency measure certain educationally disadvantaged urban districts, including my area, where a recent study showed that only 14.5 per cent of the people had advanced beyond the primary school level, should be declared educational priority areas and educational funds should be diverted to their relief on a preferential basis.

What is being done at the moment? I am not here to talk party political propaganda about the recent budget. I will say what is being done and what should be done. The £50 million job creation programme had included in it £4.1 million for new premium employment schemes, including a premium employment scheme for school-leavers whereby an employer in most industries who hires a school-leaver is paid a subsidy of £10 a week. A total of £1½ million is also being allocated for an expansion of the community youth training programme and the introduction of other schemes directed at increasing job opportunity for school-leavers.

Expenditure on education is to increase by £21 million in addition to this and a special allocation of £1.8 million is being made to cover the cost of recruiting 1,100 new teachers for posts in first and second level schools, mainly in the Dublin area. These special budget allocations show that the Dublin area is finally being recognised as an emergency priority in terms of education and employment for young people.

The student teacher ratios in Dublin have long been at variance with those of the rest of the country. They constitute a disincentive for children in urban areas at a most crucial stage in their educational programme. It is time that measures were taken to bring the student-teacher ratio into some kind of balance. The community youth training programme and the school-leaver employment schemes should concentrate on the Dublin area and bring some relief to school-leavers suffering through an endemic situation of urban unemployment.

The trend in these allocations is correct, directed as they are to school-leavers and also to the Dublin area. In turn, the implications of these measures will have to be monitored to ensure that the greatest assistance goes to the areas of greatest need. The educational and employment incentive measures must concentrate on areas such as Ballyfermot, where a survey like the one conducted by the BCA has so clearly shown statistics of social need. I feel very pleased that the budget measures have incorporated two specific proposals of mine but I believe, however, that much more remains to be done.

The proposal of mine for early retirement merits further consideration by the Government and also the trade unions. I have been talking about this early retirement to make way for school-leavers for nearly three years. Britain have decided to introduce it and I do not see why we should not consider it as a matter of priority. The Government should consider an emergency allocation for a community works programme, giving the local character to such an initiative. In this would be small local industries with AnCO involvement and special grants from the IDA. This would have an immediate effect on the morale of the unemployed school-leavers. The discrimination against female school-leavers should be eliminated by amending the 52 stamp requirement for unemployment assistance.

The Department of Education must reassess the relative importance of vocational versus secondary education particularly in areas where educational opportunities have been limited and unemployment has been prominent. The Department of Education, in conjunction with the Economic and Social Research Institute, should undertake a through study of the manpower needs of Irish industry and relate the distribution of scarce educational resources to the areas which offer the greatest employment potential for young people. The educational bureaucracy must give way to a reasonable degree of community control through parent and teacher imput. The suggestion in the BCA survey of a local voluntary educational authority merits our full support since the teachers and the parents have a right and also an obligation to ensure that course content is relative to the real needs of young people in society. I would like to see this as a co-ordinating body within the area so that there could be a sharing of the facilities. One member of the BCA said that up there they have all links but no chain.

The access of young women to vocational education must be expanded if women are ever to shake off the shackles of second-class citizenship in the world at large. The construction of the community college on the Harp site in Ballyfermot represents real progress on the vocational school front and it must be met with a reciprocal commitment at junior school level so that vocational education for girls can be provided at the junior cycle. The establishment of the academic council, as suggested by the BCA, should provide an excellent means to this end.

In addition to these measures and proposals I have also been directing my efforts in support of the publication of the Government's youth policy and increased financial support for voluntary youth organisations. Our youth clubs have a major role to play in providing access to informal second-chance education, a crucial social service given the fantastically high dropout level in the formal education system. The failure of the Department of Education to increase the grant-in-aid to youth and sporting organisations was shortsighted and should be rectified at the earliest possible moment. I have always maintained that youth should have the highest priority and I reiterate my proposal that the Government appoint a Minister for Youth Affairs who would operate as a youth advocate at the highest Government level. This would bring the youth lobby into the Cabinet room.

The problem of youth is not solely the problem of the Department. The provision of relevant education and suitable employment is a key task but so also is the expansion of access which youth has to society. I believe that trade union officials, churchmen and educators must all learn to make way for more participation of young people in the affairs of their organisations. This is an important matter and we must recognise it. It is about time that we had student representatives on the boards of our secondary schools; youth councils sitting with the Hierarchy; young people appointed as trade union executives and youth members sitting on the administrative councils of our political parties. We must understand that we cannot demand responsibility without allocating power. The youth of Ireland will feel responsible for their society in direct proportion to the amount of power they share in it. We all have an obligation to open up Ireland to our youth. We have the largest youth population in Western Europe and for that reason we should start soon.

(Dublin Central): I welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter and Deputy Dowling is to be congratulated on highlighting the problems which confront the people of Ballyfermot and similar areas in Dublin. I should like to congratulate the community in Ballyfermot who carried out this survey because it reveals startling information which might prove useful to the Government. It outlines the real problems in the area. These problems were not highlighted up to now to the proper extent and other communities should carry out a similar survey in their areas. The figures ascertained in such surveys are very helpful. When I read this report I found it hard to believe that such a situation exists in Dublin.

We are all aware that education gives equal opportunity and without education people are deprived of a fundamental factor. The survey carried out in that area indicates that certain sections in the community are victimised because of lack of these facilities. It is the duty of everybody, particularly the Government, to ensure that this imbalance is rectified as soon as possible. The constituency I represent has similar problems to those that exist in Ballyfermot. There are many overcrowded schools and the pupil-teacher ratio has not been rectified to date. I am sure that the Minister told us, when introducing the budget, that he was allocating additional money for this purpose but my information is that a sufficient number of qualified primary school teachers will not be available.

As well as the drawbacks in the educational field the report also highlights difficulties in the employment sector. We should be ashamed of the figures highlighted in that report. These figures reflect the incompetence of the Government to create a proper climate for employment. Plans should have been formulated to cater for Dublin. I welcome the changes made by the IDA but without proper planning and the introduction of a scheme for the establishment of small industries I do not know how this problem can be rectified. The centre of the city is being depopulated and only a few minor rehousing schemes have been carried out. There are many facilities which could be utilised in a better way. Many old schools are in urgent need of repair. We need to bring life back to the city and the only way that can be done is for the Government to build more acceptable houses. It is also necessary that small industries be established in the centre of the city because it is not suitable for large industry.

On the question of employment we must also consider the transport system. I have always maintained that people should live as near as possible to the place where they work but we find that the majority of our industries are on the perimeter of the city. That is desirable where large industries are concerned. The great industrial expansion in the Ballyfermot area took place under a Fianna Fáil Government and had that impetus been kept up the unemployment figures highlighted in the report would have been a great deal less.

We have gone through four years of stagnation during which thousands of young and middle-aged people were made redundant. It is terrible to see a married man of about 45 years of age with four or five children being told that he is being made redundant. The Government should direct their attention to this problem because such men find it very difficult to get alternative employment. There is plenty of work for those in the 20 to 30 age group but the man over 40 encounters greater obstacles. In this regard I have often criticised local authorities who stipulate that people over 45 years of age are not eligible to start work with them. Local authorities should make an effort to employ such people. Such bodies should be highlighting this situation and encouraging others to employ middle-aged married men who are made redundant.

I accept that many of the redundancies which have taken place were inevitable but many could have been avoided if there was a proper Government fiscal policy. Many people were made redundant because inflation was allowed to get out of hand. Thousands would still be in employment if our economic policies had been handled in a proper way by the Government. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the budget estimate in 1976 for the construction industry was £119.47 million but only £105.15 million of that amount was spent. That £14 million could have been used to create employment in the construction industry. The Government failed to encourage builders to take up this money which would serve two purposes, make homes available to those living in appalling conditions and create new jobs. The same position exists in relation to the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce. In 1976, £119 million was voted for that Department but only £95 million was spent. That surplus should have been used to generate employment. The Minister for Finance in his budget speech told us that expenditure on the capital programme in 1976 was £554 million, 9 per cent, or £52 million less than the budget estimate. He told us that the difference between the budget estimate and the actual expenditure did not in any way result in a financial cutback. The money was there but the demand was not for it and he told us there was a saving of £29 million. How could anybody call that a "saving". It is not a saving; it is a reflection on the ability of the present Administration if people are not prepared to take up that money. It is a reflection on the policies pursued by the Government which have discouraged the private sector and capital investment.

Thousands of young people are-walking around the city unemployed because of the mishandling of our economic policies by the Government.

Many of those who left school last year are still seeking employment. It is a disastrous situation. It is the duty of a Government to provide employment for school-leavers. The thousands who will complete their schooling this year have a right to employment here but I doubt if they will succeed because the Government have not tried to rectify the disastrous situation in relation to employment. I do not wish to make a political football out of this, I just want to put the facts before the House. Until the Government direct their attention to the real problems facing us we will not achieve success. The greatest issue facing us is the unemployment of our young people.

Young people unemployed for three or four years after leaving school become demoralised. Another problem is that there are no proper amenities for the young people who have not employment. The Minister for Labour should make use of AnCO in this regard. Those young boys and girls could be taken into training centres and kept occupied. While the money made available by the Minister for Finance in January will help it will not solve the problem mentioned in the report. We must encourage employers to take on more employees. There is a concept building up in manufacturing industry towards capital intensive industries.

If that kind of situation continues what hope is there for our young people? We will have to encourage labour intensive industries and in doing so we must ensure the creation of the right environment. Time and again we have warned Ministers against taxing labour because that discourages employers taking on more workers. Yet with every budget social welfare contributions are increased. They are a tax on labour but the Minister for Finance continues to pursue the negative policy of increasing social welfare contributions. That sort of policy will never solve the problem of rising unemployment. It has not done so any year in the past four years.

The FUE, industrialists and economists advised the Minister to do everything he could to lower the costs of manufacture. Social welfare contributions, increased postal and telephone charges and so on all add to the costs of manufacture and militate against the creation of more jobs. The benefit of a reduction in corporation profits tax will be eaten away and manufacturers will be back to square one.

The Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary will have a difficult task in providing for our young people the education to which they are entitled. He should not pinpoint any particular area and above all we must do all in our power to ensure we do not end up with first class and second class citizens. That would be a negation of democracy.

I realise the difficulties but the difficulties are not insurmountable. Where there is overcrowding in the home surely it should be possible to accommodate students in schools where they could study. I know the overcrowding that exists. Opening the schools again in the evening would cost something but that expenditure would ultimately pay a handsome dividend in a better educated community. Young people would study in an environment in which they could concentrate. They cannot do the impossible in overcrowded conditions. If steps are not taken to solve the problem the present unsatisfactory trend will continue.

Planning and the creation of jobs are by and large the responsibility of the Government. So is the creation of the right environment. The Government have failed in this respect over the last four years. There is a road problem and concommitant with that there is a transport problem in our capital city. Traffic is almost stagnant. That will not encourage industry into the city. I blame the Minister for Local Government for doing nothing to improve the situation. Amenities cannot be provided unless there is a proper foundation. Evidently the Minister for Local Government thinks that in doing nothing he is doing his duty. I would like to see the centre city area properly developed. At the moment it is desolate. Unless there is a properly planned development of roads, industries, schools, community centres and so on there can be no proper progress. We have failed miserably in this respect for a number of years past. The Government have failed to tackle the problems and their greatest failure has been their inability to provide employment for young people. It is no use educating children if when they are educated there are no job opportunities for them. Today thousands of our young people are without the employment to which they are entitled. Naturally they feel frustrated and they frequent longer bars and pool halls. They were not educated to do that.

Deputy Dowling has done the House and the people a service by highlighting this problem. All of us are concerned about the welfare of our youth because in years to come they will be the people who will be directing the affairs of this country. Unless we make provision for them what hope is there for this country in eight or ten years' time?

First I should like to offer my congratulations to the Ballyfermot Community Association not just on the publication of this report but on the previous reports. In particular I should like to express my regard for the Chairman of the educational committee, Tommy Phelan, whose introduction prefaces this report.

The report is a serious and scientific study of the problems of one of the major Dublin communities and it demonstrates on the part of the people of Ballyfermot an unusual social and community consciousness. The report correctly puts the problem of education, with which it specifically deals, within the general economic context. In this country we have always had high unemployment. It is not something that has happened in the last three years. The report indicates that one quarter of the sample surveyed were unemployed. We have always had overcrowding in houses. The people who live in Ballyfermot now came from the worst housing conditions in Europe. This report indicates that 42 per cent live in houses in which there are ten or more people, a damning indictment of every housing policy which has been carried on by every Government.

There has always been discrimination in opportunities; there has always been inequality of opportunity. It has not just occurred in the last three years. This report indicates that 69 per cent of those surveyed left school at 15 years and that only one person out of the entire survey went to university. There have always been serious income differentials which lead to the kind of injustice and inequality highlighted in the report. Until quite recently there has always been emigration. In the past it went to solve the kind of problems with which we are now confronted. I reckon that out of the people who emigrated in the last 16 years of Fianna Fáil rule approximately 2,700 emigrated from the Ballyfermot area. That is the way the unemployment problem was solved.

The report spells out the evils which have always characterised our system. In particular it highlights the discrimination against women; 41 per cent were engaged in unskilled work, 69 per cent left school at 15 years compared with 41 per cent of the boys, 20 per cent of the mothers were at work and 89 per cent of those working wives were in unskilled work. Many of them were doing this work against their wishes but were doing so because of economic necessity.

Important to the Department, whose primary concern this report is, is the fact that on page 10 it contains a damning indictment of the educational system particularly in respect of the courses. The report states:

For many parents and probably teachers education is still geared essentially for future academic achievement in universities or other third level institutions and the orientation of many courses indicates that teachers do not look closely at the relationship between what they teach and the social reality for pupils of their later job opportunities in life.

The social reality was that one child in the survey went on to university. Add to that the discrimination against the children of this area to gain access to third-level education and we have a pretty damning indictment of what happens at second-level education.

The report does more than that. It points out that even if the barriers of limited access to third-level education, particularly university education, for working people were broken down there is no clear evidence to suggest that many working-class people would take the opportunity if presented. This is for a number of reasons, varying from the economic need for extra income, parental attitudes and the needs of young people themselves. It also spells out the indisputable fact that the major orientation of education in teaching people to make the step to university is in many ways not applicable to the desires and possibilities of young people in working-class areas such as Ballyfermot. For that reason the BCA Report puts forward positive proposals not only in regard to the type of education needed for the area but also in regard to the structures that would help to facilitate its advent.

In his introduction on page 1 of the report the chairman of the educational committee spells out what he regards as fundamental. He states:

Another major recommendation of our July, 1972 report was that an Educational Authority be set up for Ballyfermot; however the silence on this topic to date has been deafening. An educational Authority would bring all people involved in education, from pre-school to post-primary, together to pursue and implement new relevant education programmes for Ballyfermot.

I believe this proposal is not only relevant but is absolutely necessary and should be implemented with the least possible delay. As I understand the concept it is based on a voluntary principle. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider supporting proposals of this sort in a positive way. We know that money is short and resources are scarce but perhaps there could be even the minimum secretarial assistance offered to such authority which would bring together all the school facilities in the area, ensure co-ordination and the best use of scarce resources. At the moment there is too much fragmentation and waste.

The BCA Report also suggests the use of community work projects centered around small industries, involving the people of the community, using their skills and talents rather than waiting for work to appear through some outside agency acting in a benevolent fashion. The people in this area are quite convinced that they have all the necessary skills and talents within their community. What they want is the same help and assistance which is given to private entrepreneurs and they also require that special grants should be made for community work projects using the IDA and AnCO in conjunction with local community organisations. That proposal is another indication of the community consciousness which permeates this report. If that aspect is not seen the later proposal has very little meaning in conventional terms. The report is not conventional because it was written by ordinary people. It was not written by business consultants, solely motivated by the profit motive. It was written by people who want to see their children put to work.

There is also a piea in the report for the promotion of continuing education. It is very encouraging to note that the survey indicates that 54 per cent of those surveyed said that if given the opportunity they would do part-time courses. Of course we are not going to solve the kind of problems highlighted here, the problems of discrimination because of economic inequalities unless we can help to redress those inequalities by increasing the scope for continuing education, by helping those who had to leave the system at 15 years, often because of economic necessity, to get back into the educational system and to avail of opportunities.

It is highly encouraging to note that 54 per cent of the people surveyed said they would attend part-time courses if given the opportunity. That statistic is the most powerful argument that could be put forward in favour of a voluntary education authority. The investment in education is already there but it is underutilised, particularly during holiday periods. Many of those children if given the opportunity have the capacity for third-level education and to be equal to if not better than other classes. It is most damning that access to third-level education relates to income instead of to intelligence. The report points out that if children of their class want third-level education they must have a higher number of leaving certificate honours than children of parents who can afford third-level education. We should not tolerate that kind of discrimination.

The Government's budget proposals, to which the amendment refers, are a start in dealing with the problems highlighted in the survey. I would not go so far as to say they are the answer to the problems but they are a start. The employment premium scheme for school leavers of £4.1 million is a welcome innovation and will be a real help. So too will the extra money devoted to increasing the number of teachers. As Deputy O'Connell pointed out, the root of much of the discrimination against children in working-class areas is that there is a higher pupil/teacher ratio than in other areas. These are the areas for extra teachers at primary level because that is where discrimination begins; that is where difficulties arise where reading and writing difficulties emerge which last through a person's lifetime and which often prevent him from taking opportunities to which his intelligence would normally entitle him. We must pour money into this type of area to reduce the pupil/teacher ratio at primary level and to overcome the problems generated by children of large families being unable to study through lack of space.

I agree with what Deputy O'Connell said with regard to appointing a Minister for youth problems. As Bishop Birch said last weekend, we are sitting on a time bomb in regard to our young population. It is a fact that 48 per cent of the population is under 25 years of age. The report of NESC on population projections, which was prepared by Professor Brendan Walsh, contains frightening statistics. It is in areas such as Ballyfermot that the worst impact of the population explosion will be felt. The BCA Report makes the point that in the current crisis Dublin has suffered the worst effects and must now be regarded as a priority area. The whole country is experiencing the same problems but they are accentuated in the Dublin area. That is why we should have priority programmes for such areas. In addition Governments must recognise that unless we devise special programmes for youth, not only in economic and social areas but in many other areas as well, we shall be beset by political and social problems which may be beyond our capacity to solve, particularly when the traditional safety valve of emigration has been closed. The BCA Report highlights the fact that applications received by AnCO were three times greater than the number of places available in 1975. These applicants must also pass the GATB test which discriminates against those with reading and writing difficulties. In other words, the injustice and discrimination that starts at primary level is continued when the child tries to enter a profession. He then winds up in an unskilled job which is underpaid. His children follow the same route and the vicious spiral is continued. That is not a product of the past three years. It is a product of the system that has been permitted to continue for 50 years.

The great value of this report is that the people who produced it have scientifically analysed the type of society in which they live. New approaches are needed to these problems and the BCA Report points the way. Its existence proves that new approaches are possible. We should permit the greatest possible degree of decentralisation in our various services. One of our curses has been over-centralisation of services and the belief that everything can be decided by a centralised bureaucracy. My belief is that local people know local problems best. Government services should be brought to people in a decentralised fashion. Local people should be given the opportunity to solve their problems in a supporting role rather than a paternalistic one. Perhaps we should consider dividing Dublin into community areas with their own elected councils. For example, the Dublin Corporation is too big an entity to deal with the problems confronting the people of Ballyfermot.

The BCA Report proves that local people have the intelligence to identify and analyse their problems and to propose solutions. The people who produced this report are worthy of the congratulations of this House for its thoroughness, scientific nature and the seriousness of its proposals. It should be highlighted as a new approach to democracy. I hope we will assist by elevating this debate above party politics. We are dealing with a community whose only desire is to see many of their problems solved as quickly as possible.

I am greatly pleased by the amount of discussion that has taken place. I believe that the Ballyfermot survey is a best-seller. A large number of people have asked me for copies of the survey within the last two days. This document has been photocopied 20 times in two days. I am disappointed that the Government put forward an amendment that does not meet the situation. The motion reads:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of the recently published survey of the Educational Sub-Committee of the Ballyfermot Community Association and requests the Government to initiate as a matter of urgency a special programme to provide employment and educational opportunities in Ballyfermot and in other areas of Dublin city where a similar need exists.

That is what we want instead of being told that all is well because of the recent budget. Deputies O'Connell and Halligan have said that much of the blame lies elsewhere. Action is required on this important matter. I want to make a distinction between the availability of educational opportunities and the standard of education achieved by young people in Ballyfermot who have distinguished themselves in this field and have obtained positions of trust.

I want to deal with the point made by Deputy Halligan with regard to third level education. Recently, in a debate in this House Deputy Tunney and Deputy Wilson, our spokesman on Education raised this matter. Giving statistics Deputy Tunney said only 75 students in Dublin had got third level education grants; the VEC give another 100 or so. Therefore the total number of grants in Dublin was 175. The Minister stated in the course of the discussion the other day that the total number for the whole country was 6,000. Dublin is being discriminated against, receiving 175 grants out of 6,000 in an area that contains one-third of the population. The figure of 75 mentioned by Deputy Tunney was not repudiated, and I can well understand the statistics here that indicate that only one from the sample went to university, because of the discrimination against them at income level and otherwise. We know that a man with a medical card or on the dole would not qualify for the full grant.

As I mentioned last night, there is absolute neglect in regard to the provision of educational facilities in Ballyfermot, notwithstanding the fact that over the years the previous Minister, Mr. Burke, indicated that certain remedial measures would be taken to deal with this situation. I gave a classic example last night of art students now housed in a prefab who have to carry buckets of water across to the art class. In what other country in Europe or in the world would art students have to do that? It is high time to fulfil the promises that have been made in regard to providing the necessary facilities.

The teachers need great sympathy in this situation. The pupil-teacher ratio has been mentioned on many occasions. It is about time special attention was given to certain areas where there are problems and where the problems have been pointed out time and time again to the Minister and his Department. When we write to the Department about Ballyfermot we get comprehensive replies as to what the Department intend to do, but children must suffer in the meantime and children have suffered by the neglect of the Department of Education. I put down a question in relation to this report no later than last December, when I asked the Minister for Education the plans he had on hand to solve the serious problems indicated in the survey of the Ballyfermot Association.

In the course of supplementary questions I pressed him to give an undertaking that he would regard Ballyfermot as a priority area. The Minister replied that it did not appear to him that it would be desirable to interrupt the flow of fruitful co-operation and to make a declaration of an educational priority area by providing a special local education authority as recommended in the survey. That is the policy of the Minister. The situation that is indicated by this report is all too serious to be cast aside by a pronouncement of this nature. Now that the matter has been aired fully and effectively in the House by all shades of political opinion, I hope the Minister will come to his senses and ensure that this area, together with other areas in Dublin city, will get the opportunities they deserve and that where there are defects in the system due to neglect these defects will be remedied at the earliest possible moment. Promises are no use. Urgent action is required.

I challenge the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to go out to Ballyfermot to see for themselves and then make up their own minds rather than reject this motion by a vote. He should go out to the area, interview the school managers, the school-teachers, the pupils and the parents and find out their reactions. Let him find out if the facts as stated in the survey are correct. I assure the Minister he will get the utmost co-operation from the politicians and from the other people concerned, including the Ballyfermot Community Association.

I call on the Government again to set up, as a matter of urgency, an independent committee to examine the content of the survey with special attention to education, employment, and housing and to make the necessary financial assistance available to meet the needs of the community in solving distress in conjunction with the Ballyfermot Community Association. That is what I want and what they want.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 58.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Halligan, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kyne, Thomas.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17th February, 1977.
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