Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 1977

Vol. 298 No. 5

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1977: Second Stage.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Cooney)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The object of this very short Bill is to permit the District Court to grant an occasional intoxicating liquor licence in respect of a special event for a period not exceeding six days instead of a period not exceeding three days, which is what the law allows at present.

Section 11 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962, provides that an occasional licence may be granted by the District Court to the holder of an ordinary on-licence to enable him to sell drink at an unlicensed place where a special event is being held during such times and on such days, not exceeding three, as may be specified in the licence. A number of special events, notably the Spring Show, the Horse Show, Galway Races and a few more last for more than three days and they have traditionally enjoyed the benefit of occasional licences to cover the entire event. Apparently the practice in some districts has been that the court has granted two consecutive occasional licences in respect of some of these events.

Recently, however, a district justice in Dublin refused to grant a second, consecutive, occasional licence for the week of the Irish International Boat Show in the RDS Ballsbridge. The applicants for the licence initiated certiorari proceedings in the High Court to have the order of the District Court quashed. Showing cause why the order should not be quashed, the district justice stated that on his interpretation of section 11 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962, he had no jurisdiction to grant more than one occasional licence in respect of any event. The High Court held that the district justice was correct in his interpretation.

I consider, however, and I am sure Deputies will agree with me, that there is a case for permitting occasional licences to operate in respect of the whole period of the kind of events which I have mentioned. The only way that this can be done is by amending the law. The Bill does no more than allow for the continuation of the practice that has existed in relation to some of these special events and I commend it to the House.

Mr. G. Collins

This is not controversial legislation although there are a few questions I would like to ask. Were the consecutive occasional licences issued since 1962 illegal? It appears to me that when two consecutive occasional licences were given under section 11 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962, that everything was not as it should be. Why has it taken so long for this weakness to be recognised? I have no objection to increasing the number of days for an occasional licence from three to six. There are events all around the country which are of equal importance to the Horse Show and the Spring Show, such as the Rose of Tralee Festival, Listowel Harvest Week and so on which last longer than three days.

There is a small fear at the back of my mind. I would not like to make it easier for young people to get drink. Throughout the country a number of exemptions given for one reason or another make it easier for young people to get drink because large numbers are attracted to these towns and villages which have these licences. I have no objection to mature people drinking. That is their business provided they keep within reasonable limits and have due regard to the safety of others. I am thinking particularly of motorists. In my opinion there is a need for a tightening up of the general exemptions because I honestly feel a number of them which allow drinking up to mid-night in many places attract unruly elements who come solely for the purpose of drinking. I would like to see the intoxicating liquor laws tightened up or strengthened in every way possible. It is no secret that in rural Ireland the focal point in every parish is, unfortunately, the lounge bar. That is where young people meet and these would not all be 18 years old. There are pool tables and other attractions for them. I would like to see it made more difficult for young people to get drink.

What I am going to say now is not exactly relevant but I shall say it nevertheless. I shall be extremely brief. I honestly believe this Government or the next Government, whatever parties constitute it, should ensure that the advertising of drink on television is stopped. Young people are subjected to a great many pressures and one of those pressures is well thought-out commercial advertising on behalf of the companies which manufacture alcoholic liquor. It is wrong to give the impression that life centres around drink and we should do everything to prevent that image being given to our young people. There are quite enough pressures on them.

I am not opposing the Bill but I have certain reservations. Anything that would make the availability of drink easier than it is to young people should be prohibited. Any relaxation in the system should be considered very carefully. We will give the Minister all the help we can from this side of the House so long as legislation is designed to protect young people from the dangers of drink.

I would like the Minister to clarify whether or not a secretary of a race company or an organisation can be given this six-day licence or does the person who applies for such a licence have to own a public house or an hotel? I am not sure what the position is. Is it at the discretion of the court to fix the hours of trading? I should like it to be a minimum. Where such licences are applied for there is generally only a part-time staff and that staff may not be as vigilant about not selling drink to young people. As I say, I have a few reservations. I do not object to the substitution of six days instead of three days but we must do more than we are doing to ensure drink is not—glamorised as it is being glamorised at the moment. We have a responsibility to protect our young people. Drink is available in supermarkets. I hope that its sale in these premises is being properly supervised. I confess I believe it is though other Members say the contrary. We are getting, perhaps, too liberal. In a way that is no harm but there is a helluva lot of money being spent on drink every day of every week. The figures are frightening. I think as much as £5 million or £6 million a week is spent on drink. That is a colossal figure. It is certainly one that we cannot afford.

The Minister will get the full co-operation of this side of the House in any measures he introduces to tighten up the liquor laws. If he gets on to the television people about the amount of time spent advertising liquor and glamorising it we will certainly do everything to help him in any effort he makes to put a stop to this.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is outside the scope of this Bill.

Mr. Coogan

I am a TT but I am not a pussyfoot. If people want to have a drink, that is their business but it is only right that we should put on more controls. It is the in-thing for young people to meet in lounge bars and that is where the danger lies. How many publicans have lost licences because of permitting under age drinking? It would be interesting to have that figure. I welcome the Bill. We have a racecourse in my constituency and amenities are essential. We have Government warnings about the danger to health from cigarette smoking. I do not know how one could warn against drinking. It would be a waste of time putting it on the bottle. There is a problem of alcoholism. A warning must go out loudly and clearly. Young people are trapped into drinking. One cannot turn on a television without seeing a smiling young man looking at a glass of liquor. If a warning like that in regard to cigarettes were given with the drink, some good might come of it. The youth being trapped into drinking today will be the alcoholics of the future. There must be a tightening up on under age drinking in lounge bars. It is tragic to see them coming out of these places and something must be done to curb this kind of drinking.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but the Chair has allowed a great deal of latitude so far. The Bill is limited in scope. It is confined to the granting of occasional licences.

Mr. Coogan

I appreciate that.

Mr. Gallagher

I have no objection to the Bill but the Minister might have taken this opportunity to examine many aspects of the present situation and broaden the scope of the Bill. I asked questions here in relation to guesthouse owners who lost licences because they did not have a special grading from Bord Fáilte. One should take a look at the overall situation when providing for extensions. There are restrictions on tourists under the existing hours. Parents who cannot leave their children before 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. cannot enjoy a drink in a local lounge bar and this is something that might be examined. There are other aspects which should also be examined. As this appears to be urgent he could have taken a look at the things I have mentioned.

Hoteliers have a very short season and they find it hard to keep within the limits of the law and try to keep those on holiday happy. There might be a sergeant or superintendent who is particularly strict in enforcing the law. This creates problems in tourist drinking areas. I am not advocating that we should make it easier for people to get drink. I agree with what has been said with regard to restrictions on drinking in lounge bars. I suppose the Minister cannot in this Bill do what I have been asking but when we are talking about drinking laws I believe it is necessary to have a Bill introduced to cover the points I have made.

Mr. Coughlan

I have served inside and outside the counter for many years.

Mr. Wilson

With distinction.

Mr. Coughlan

Definitely. I have an all-time record. I was fined £50 for selling drink after hours on one occasion. I know the law from both sides and I want to commend the Minister for what he has done in those exceptional circumstances. As Deputy Collins said, the law has been contravened in the past but his predecessor was in office during those contraventions and nothing was done about it.

No matter what we say about not advertising the use of intoxicating drink the non-advertising of tobacco and cigarettes has not decreased sales. There was a lot of pressure about the dangers of cigarette smoking. The non-advertising of tobacco and cigarettes has not curbed the practice of cigarette smoking. Likewise, the non-advertising of alcoholic drinks will not stop alcoholism.

There are many functions which go on from time to time, such as Galway races, the Listowel races, Puck Fair and Killarney races, which are tourist attractions. I suggest that a limit be put on the closing time. When a licence is granted by Bord na gCon to a greyhound track the licence expires 15 minutes after the time of the last race. In the case of the functions I have mentioned when a licence is given for drink at those functions the licensee should be given about one-and-a-half hours after the last race to close his bar before the licence expires. We should have identification cards for teenage drinkers.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is obviously a widening of the debate here. I have allowed a brief reference to advertising but the advertising of cigarettes, tobacco and such matters, to which the Deputy is now adverting, do not arise on this Bill.

Mr. Coughlan

The Minister should go a step further in issuing licences, particularly wine licences. Anybody can buy a bottle of cheap wine in any huckster's shop, chemist's, grocer's or supermarket. Cider, which is intoxicating, can also be bought in many of those premises. People have to live by their trade but I cannot see why any of those premises I have mentioned should be allowed to hold a wine licence. I recommend that they oe curtailed. If we want to regulate our drinking habits and bring them within limits we must put the law on ourselves.

The Minister should also consider a Christmas morning opening to 1.30 or 2.30 p.m. Nearly every publican in Ireland is open on Christmas morning. If the Minister legalised a two-hour opening on that day, instead of having people going in at all hours of the day or night, it would be much better. We agree that Good Friday is out but any man is in his wife's way on a Christmas morning and he should be allowed legally to mix with his friends in any of those places.

Mr. Coogan

What about a cure?

Mr. Coughlan

What does the Deputy know about cures? He would need to go to Lourdes. I want to congratulate the Minister on what he has done but I suggest that he goes a few steps further. When the Bill is debated in more detail I will have further suggestions to make.

Mr. Wilson

As our spokesman said, there is no objection to extending the licence from three days to six days in the case of a special event. The Minister made it clear why he had to introduce this Bill. The changing pattern in the tourist business imposes an obligation on the State to make a different provision from the one that was made in the past. We now have different type holidays, such as camping, caravan and itinerant type holidays where people move from place to place. Certain houses may get a reputation for a certain type of interesting, effective and very often internationally recognised entertainment and on special occasions the extension of the licence should be given to them.

A traveller in the nineteenth century in Ireland commented very favourably with regard to licences and drinking. He said that in Ireland there was an abundance of food, game, red meat and poultry available in drinking places and that when you bought your alcoholic drink you got all the food you wanted for nothing, "it being the custom of the kingdom". This would be worth reviving, but it is unlikely that food would be available for nothing. However, any future look at the licensing laws should see to it that with drink there is plenty of food. Other countries have faced this problem and a great deal of ersatz food was made available in drinking places, plastic peas, ersatz meat and so on, a pseudo provision to cope with the law. Many of the points made by Deputy Coogan would be met if the people had available to them plenty of food to absorb the drink. There would be less damage to health and less drunkenness. I would not agree at all with Deputy Coughlan that Christmas Day should be a day for a special liecnce.

Mr. Coogan

Many of them are only there for the beer.

Mr. Wilson

It offends me to see such cases in the paper, and I do not have much sympathy for a publican who is caught on Christmas Day serving drinks. There may be a useful social purpose served if the man of the house gets out of the way while the women are preparing the Christmas dinner.

Mr. G. Collins

He could walk the dog.

Mr. Wilson

Yes, that would be a useful exercise before the dinner or maybe a more useful one afterwards. However, when, as is inevitable, this whole question comes up with regard to licensing, there should be a look at the necessity of providing solid food by compulsion in all places where alcoholic drink is served.

Mr. E. Collins

It is, of course, necessary to legalise the situation where drink can be sold at unlicensed places, and such events as Tramore races in August come within the scope of the Bill. One can gather from what has been said in the House that Deputies would have preferred a more comprehensive Bill dealing with a number of wider problems which face our society.

The question of young drinkers has been mentioned as having become a serious problem. There should be greater penalties on licensees who sell drink to young people or to people who are drunk. The closing hours should also be dealt with. It was put to me that the licensees would prefer to see an all-the-year-round closing time of 11 o'clock.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the subject matter of the Bill, which is very limited. The Chair has allowed some latitude and fleeting references to other matters, but we cannot get into detail on matters which do not arise. Occasional intoxicating liquor licences is the question at issue.

Mr. E. Collins

I do not wish to go deeply into any matter. I merely wish to refer to some matters which should be dealt with in an Intoxicating Liquor Bill. Deputy Gallagher mentioned holiday resorts and I think for the summer season different closing hours should be applicable to such places. However, the Bill legalises what was in practice illegal, apparently, and that is to be welcomed. Nevertheless, in relation to the whole question of Intoxicating Liquor Acts there are many problems which should be dealt with in a comprehensive Bill.

Mr. Kitt

I support what has been said already on this Bill. I just want to ask the Minister about the licence for special events. Can I take it that under this Bill the courts will not grant two consecutive occasional licences for these events? Under this Bill the licence may be granted for a period not exceeding six days and, as the Minister pointed out, in some areas the court granted two consecutive occasional licences where the event went on longer than three days. If the event went on longer than a week, would the court grant two consecutive occasional licences for the event? I think it would be a little too liberal if that situation was allowed to arise.

I would also question some of these special events which are held in this country, and I would distinguish between those that are genuine, traditional events and those that are just pulled out of the hat in order to make some money for a few days. Those genuine, traditional events are suffering because of the multiplicity of festivals and other events that are held at the moment and it is sad to note that some traditional events have disappeared in recent times.

I support Deputy Wilson in what he has said about making food available. This country is noted for food and unfortunately at some of these festivals there is very little sign of food being made available. That is something of which the organisers of every event should take note.

Reference has been made to the glamorisation of drink and to advertising on television. There is another type of advertising which is probably more frightening and dangerous, that is, the advertising of drink that is to be seen on children's garments. This form of advertising is more harmful because children are being used by people who are behind such productions, and when the children wearing these garments are at school these advertisements are obviously having an effect on the other children and encouraging young people to take drink. There should be a Bill dealing with this problem. That is straying a little from the Bill but, in general, I welcome the statement the Minister has made.

Mr. L. Belton

I welcome this Bill. Like Deputy Coughlan I have had experience inside and outside the counter, and in my time I have been a Pioneer and a drinker. At the moment I am one of the few Deputies holding a publican's licence. I welcome this correction and I am surprised that the error has not been detected previously by other Ministers or other members of the legal profession. It baffles me why it was allowed to exist for so long.

Unlike Deputy Coughlan, I would not advocate opening on Christmas Day. Very few businesses are open for as long as the licensing trade who are now open for 363 days out of 365. The only two closed days are Christmas Day and Good Friday. St. Patrick's Day used be a closed day but that has been changed. I would appeal to the Minister to look for closer supervision of those occasional licences. As Deputy Collins has said, very often temporary staff are employed who have not experience of this type of trade and are there only for the day and are not depending solely on this employment. Many people blame our lounge bars for encouraging people to drink but the lounge bars in Dublin anyway are quite well conducted and the staffs in them are fully trained personnel. The publican himself knows that if he does not conduct his premises properly his licence can be objected to at the next licensing session. Proper supervision is needed in some supermarkets and in our hotels where people sit over the tables and there is not much supervision regarding the age of the people drinking. This applies also to our airports. I was surprised on a few occasions to see a number of very young people at airports being served at tables. Granted they were not being served personally with the drink but people were taking it over to them.

I welcome the Bill. Deputy Kitt need have no worry about two six-day sessions being granted because from the Minister's speech on Second Reading it seems that this anomaly was detected only when a district justice pointed out that he had not power to grant two consecutive occasional licences. Heretofore, seemingly, several district justices had granted double exemptions but this district justice found that he had not the power to do it and his decision was upheld. I hope that in the near future the Minister will introduce a further licensing Bill on which we will have a lot to say.

Mr. Callanan

We are confined to the Bill and I want to say a few words about the question of alcohol, keeping as close as I can to the terms of the Bill. It may be said that this Bill is not necessary. It is necessary, and I compliment the Minister for bringing it in. As Deputy Coogan has said, it would be very unfair if the Galway races went on for six days and the racegoers were without a drink for three days. I also agree with Deputy Kitt that there should not be repetition of these exemptions. There were comments here on the question of drinking. I never took a drink but I have been in and out of pubs with people and I have stayed in them until all hours of the night and I admire the person who takes a drink and knows where to stop. The person who goes too far with it is a nuisance.

Various people have mentioned the advertising of drink. I do not think this will be cut out completely but at least the glamorising of drink in television advertising should be controlled. I object to the fact that teenagers are led to believe that if they are not taking a drink they cannot be with it. I am not a pussyfoot but I do say that television advertisements give the impression that without drink one cannot enjoy life. That is wrong. With regard to what Deputy Coughlan said, I disagree completely with the proposal to have pubs open on Good Friday and Christmas Day. Surely there is no house in the country which has not drink in on Christmas Day so that if people then want drink they can have it. That is the one day that everybody wants to be at home and no publican would wish to open his premises on that day.

There is a question of wine and cider being available in supermarkets. This certainly is a danger but I would not object to restaurants having a licence. Where there is a restaurant patronised by foreigners who like a glass of wine with their lunch it is only fair that the restaurant should have a licence to supply that. French people, for instance, take wine with their meals and it is not fair to deprive them of it. However, it should not be for sale off the premises and this is the point I would like the Minister to consider. I know I am straying from this very confined Bill but every speaker is straying from it a little. The reason I am saying this is that it might go forth from this House that we have run through a Bill today extending hours or extending extensions without making a comment and we are supposed to be very heavy drinkers. I have no objection to anybody taking a drink. It is a God-given right and people who drink are as good as the people who do not but the person who overdoes it is a nuisance.

Mr. McMahon

This is a short Bill to regularise something which is happening. Other speakers this morning have strayed from the Bill a little and it is fitting that they should. Many people will view with concern what will be regarded as an extension of the licensing hours. It is right and proper that we should have this Bill before us but, like a number of other speakers, I am disappointed that we have not a more comprehensive Bill covering more of the licensing laws. I can see a greater need for applications for licences of this kind in the area which I represent. It is not possible today to obtain a licence for a premises unless it is a mile from an existing licensed premises. This is a most ridiculous situation in an area which could be described as the fastest developing area in Europe.

We are building three new towns in County Dublin today and it is not possible to give the service to the incoming people. One could have a grocer's shop, a newsagent's or a butcher's or any other business but it is not possible to have licensed premises for the needs of the people. This is leading to a situation where we will probably have the record for the largest public houses or licensed premises in Europe. One area can boast of a licensed premises which can seat well in excess of 3,000 people. That is not a desirable development. For the proper control and use of drink it is far better that we have licensed premises in practically every housing estate to which a person can walk with ease to socialise or to quench his thirst. As we know, it is the habit to crowd public houses for the last hour or two in the evening.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am anxious that the Deputy should speak on the subject matter of the Bill.

Mr. McMahon

Many people have to drive to licensed premises, whereas if they were in better locations they could walk there and back rather than drive after drinking. It is not clear in this Bill if the licence will be confined to the regular licensing hours or if these special licences can be granted after hours. I, like other Deputies, would like to see the licence confined to a time limit after the event for which it is granted. If an event lasts until six o'clock in the evening, the licence could last an hour or two after that. This should be in the Bill rather than having district justices deciding on the Bill.

I am against the Christmas Day opening. On Christmas Day drink can be had in almost every house in Ireland. Ninety-nine per cent of the houses in Ireland will have a stock of drink on Christmas Day and it should not be necessary to have the licensed premises opened. A Bill is not necessary for this but I would like to see the Government spend more money on what could be described as an anti-round system campaign. Here lies the greatest ill.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is straying into another area. I have given him some latitude, but I would like him to keep to the subject matter of the Bill.

Mr. McMahon

I appreciate that. The Government should spend money on such a campaign. The anti-smoking campaign has had its effect and an anti-round system campaign would have an effect. The harm is done when a man is not buying his own drink. I appeal to the Minister to have a look at the licensing laws and to bear in mind what I have said about the situation which exists in County Dublin.

Mr. Daly

This Bill does nothing except legalise what has been taking place illegally over a number of years. The debate indicates that there is an urgent need for debate in the House on all the aspects of the licensing laws and on the advertising of drink. What worries me about the change is how it will be interpreted by different justices in different areas. We could get a situation where applications of this nature would be used as a way to get around the licensing laws. Either we have licensing laws or we do not. This is a way of getting round the existing licensing laws. Could the Minister give any indication as to the increase in the numbers of these licences that have been granted over the past number of years? I believe there has been an extraordinary increase in the number of this type of special event licences.

Mr. Cooney

The Deputy is speaking on a different thing.

Mr. Daly

There is need to have this special event defined in some way. I agree that events like the Horse Show, the Galway Races or the Colleen Bawn Festival are special events but it is not a special event when a marquee is put up in any area for a week. There should be some definition in the Bill to define special event. There is a need for urgent debate on the various aspects that have been raised here today.

Mr. Toal

As many speakers have said, this is a very simple measure designed to extend from a period of three to six days the occasional licences. Deputies would agree that occasional licences are not really confined to the Horse Show, the Spring Show or the International Boat Show. They can be got down the country as well. There are such events as ploughing championships and other agricultural functions which extend over a longer period than three days. I am certain that the Bill before us will have its effect in various parts of the country. On such a simple measure it is interesting to see the number of Deputies that come into the House. Obviously, the Intoxicating Liquor Acts are a bone of contention among a number of Deputies and there is no real agreement or unanimity on either side of the House as to the interpretation of these Acts and what they should contain.

Like many other Deputies, I would like to see the Intoxicating Liquor Acts updated and modernised. I do not mean liberalised in any way. It is very easy to stand up here and adopt a high moral attitude and pontificate and preach temperance and so on. The Minister should take into account the economic factors in the Intoxicating Liquor Acts, the livelihood of publicans throughout the country who are depending on the sale of drink from their licensed premises in small towns. They are trying to make a living and they see all of this being taken away from them by the granting of licences to hotels which could be described as nothing better than glorified public dance halls. These extensions which can go on until one or two o'clock in the morning seem to be given for the flimsiest of reasons.

I should like to see all the legislation in this area being updated and brought into line with the thinking of the people generally. More thought should be given to the situation of the beleagured publicans who stand behind their counters from morning to night trying to make a living themselves and their families but whose customers leave before closing time to go to hotels where they can drink until 3 a.m. This is particularly the case in small towns.

This Bill has been brought before us as a result of a High Court decision. In supporting it I can only express the hope that the legislation in this area will be updated with the support of the House.

Mr. Lalor

I appreciate the reason for the introduction of this Bill but I am disappointed that the Minister did not take the opportunity of the occasion to give the House the benefit of his overall views in regard to what he considers to be necessary in the long term by way of changes in the intoxicating liquor legislation.

Mr. Cooney

Had I attempted to do so I would have been ruled out of order.

Mr. Lalor

When introducing other measures the Minister has expressed his views and has given us some relevant background information. To that extent I do not think he would be ruled out of order so I am surprised to hear him express that fear. Had he said, for instance, that the purpose of this short measure is to permit the District Court to grant an occasional licence for a six-day rather than three-day period and that he would have preferred to introduce a comprehensive Bill in this whole area after he had had time to study the situation, I cannot see that he would have been ruled out of order.

However, in regard to the Bill I take it that in the event of an applicant seeking a licence in respect of a function of four days' duration, the court would not be compelled to issue the licence for six days. I expect that the practice that had evolved in such cases was that two separate three-day licences were issued.

Having studied the section of the 1962 Act which the Minister seeks to amend, that is, section 11, I find that subsection (5) provides that an occasional licence shall not be granted in respect of any Sunday. Christmas Day or Good Friday. I take it that we are talking here of a licence to sell intoxicating liquor at a premises that may not be licensed for that purpose. I am thinking of a stand being set up for this purpose at a sporting or cultural function which may last for a week or a fortnight. In my area there is organised a maytime festival which continues for about ten days. I expect that the licence would provide for the sale of drink between the hours of 8 a.m. and 10 p.m., in other words that the holder of such a licence would not be empowered to sell drink after 10 p.m. Presumably, too, we are talking in this context of a week beginning on a Monday morning and ending on a Saturday night since a licence cannot be granted in respect of a Sunday.

It is my opinion that, instead of seeking extended hours of normal trading, as has been suggested by another Deputy, publicans consider their hours of opening to be too long and would prefer a restriction in this area. This is why I am disappointed that the Minister failed to appraise us of his thinking in this whole area. It would have been interesting, for instance, to have heard from him in regard to something that has been advocated for some time, that is, the elimination of the need to hold licences at all, in other words, to allow licensed premises to fix their own hours of trading. Just as the Minister for Industry and Commerce would advocate letting prices find their own level, hours of opening could be left to find their level, too.

A Deputy who spoke earlier referred to the situation under the 1962 Act whereby, on any pretext at all, a licence for an extension can be granted to a hotel or other licencsed premises in respect of any sort of function. There is this peculiar sort of arrangement in practice whereby one door would be closed between 11 and 12 p.m. but another door is open. In other words, there would not appear to be any restriction on the sale of intoxicating liquor up to 2 a.m. in a premises in respect of which the extension had been granted.

Have we not reached a stage where this whole area must be reconsidered and the business people concerned be allowed decide among themselves during which hours they should trade? They are doing this at the moment in relation to the fixing of prices, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce knows to his cost. Some element of rationality is needed in this whole area. I recall a former Minister for Justice talking in terms of following the European pattern in this regard and having a situation in which it would be possible to buy a drink at any hour of the day or night. What he had in mind, though, was granting licences for the sale of drink up to 2 a.m. in all licensed premises. There was an outcry but we must all appreciate that if the House were to pass legislation to enable that to happen, every pub would not be open until 2 a.m. The publicans in each area would get together and decide to close at 10 or 10.30, that they would open on Sunday until such and such a time or that they would open on Saturday night until such a time but would close every other night at 8, 9, 10 or 11 o'clock depending on the business in the area. This might be the logical way to approach the matter. I am sorry for digressing but I use the occasion to mention what the Minister had not spoken about.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy took some licence.

Mr. Lalor

We are dealing with licences.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair can grant only a limited licence.

Mr. Lalor

I am sorry. I am anxious to make it clear that we are talking here about occasional licences that operate from Monday morning to Saturday night. I cannot think of an instance, but I should like to ask if it would be possible for a district justice to grant a licence for a particular special occasion from, say, Wednesday of this week until next Tuesday night? Is there anything in the section debarring the court from giving that six days from Wednesday morning at 8 o'clock until the following Tuesday night at 10 o'clock? In fact this would be seven days but under this section of the 1962 Act which we are not amending, Sunday is ruled out. Is it permissible to give this six days? Under the table in section 1 it says "authorising him to sell at that place during such times and on such days not exceeding six as may be specified on the licence."

Is it possible for the court to grant a licence under these circumstances or does the section debar the court from doing so?

The Minister gave some examples including the Spring Show, the Horse Show, Galway races and a few more. The Spring Show and the Horse Show run from Tuesday to Saturday. Galway races run from Monday night and there is an extra day now in July and perhaps we may get another day. The promoters might decide to extend Galway races in view of the fact that they can have a further couple of days' booze-up if the money lasts. Does the proposed new section allow the type of six-day licence which I visulise— four days of one week and two days of the following week with Sunday intervening when no licence can operate? I should like the Minister to clear up that point.

Mr. Enright

As somebody who spent many years working in licensed premises and whose family have been involved in the business for many years I should like to make a few remarks on the Bill. Having noted the furore in the papers when the Boat Show licence ran into difficulties I felt that the Minister for Justice would soon come to the House with amending legislation. Fair play to him, he is here with such legislation within a very short time. I believe it is welcome.

One thing about the legislation that is being amended is that the hours are restricted; there is no open-ended trading and this is a good thing. The functions we have in mind are social events at which there is a great mixture and mingling of people. In these cases I believe that the emphasis is not on drink, at least I would hope so. It is more of a social occasion. I live in the midlands and Galway races is one of the most popular social events to which people look forward for weeks ahead and I think the majority who go there do not go for a booze-up. They enjoy the racing and enjoy meeting friends from different areas. It is a holiday event for them. I believe the main emphasis is on the social aspect of the occasion. I am sorry Deputy Lalor has left the House because I should like to put on record that I disagree with some of the things he said for instance in regard to having no time limit on the closing of licensed premises. He spoke about open-ended hours of trading and thought it might lead to a situation where publicans in an area would eventually agree to fix their own hours of closing. I believe it would be wrong for the Minister to introduce legislation under which there would be no time limit for the closing of licensed premises.

I do not think Deputy Lalor's view is widely held and I think he would be in a minority in that regard. There is no demand for removing control on the closing of licensed premises. Should such legislation be passed in this House, which God forbid, I think the £4 million per week that we are spending on liquor would be driven up enormously and that there would be widespread abuse of alcohol. I am sorry to say it, but I think that we as a nation are not sufficiently mature in our approach to and use of alcoholic beverages and the social aspect of drinking. Deputy Lalor seemed to feel that we should be able to have a situation in which people at 11.30 or 12 o'clock would all decide they had had enough and go home. I do not think that would happen. I believe it would lead to considerable abuse. At present a large number of families are suffering seriously because of abuse of drink by husbands.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will permit a brief reference but detail would be irrelevant on this Bill.

Mr. Enright

The point I want to make is that I do not think there would be a demand for that type of legislation. The vast majority of publicans and the vast majority of their patrons would be in favour of the closing of licensed premises at 11 o'clock all the year round. The Minister should consider this.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must get back to the subject matter of the Bill.

Mr. Enright

Good Friday, Christmas Day and Sundays are exempt. That is desirable. Many licences are being granted for carnivals and other social events. This is to be welcomed. These licences are treated with respect and very rarely are there any bad serious side-effects. Most of these are enjoyable social functions. There should be a provision whereby licensed premises in rural areas would close for one hour per day at lunch time.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being quite irrelevant. I must insist that he comes back to the subject matter of the Bill which is limited to the granting of occasional licences.

Mr. Enright

I will endeavour to keep within the restraints imposed on me by the Ceann Comhairle. This Bill is welcome. I felt there was a necessity for it when I read the point of view expressed by the district justice. His decision was upheld later by the High Court. The Bill has the approval of everyone in the House. In the very near future the Minister should take a serious look at the Intoxicating Liquor Acts. This Bill goes some of the way. It is important that they should have full licences for the Spring Show, the Horse Show, Galway races, the Boat Show and all these important events. The restraints imposed on me by the Ceann Comhairle do not allow me to develop other arguments at the moment, but I hope I will be able to raise them in the House on some future occasion.

Mr. Power

I should like to thank the Minister for bringing in this Bill. I see the need for it. Up to recently the difficulty was got over by the three-day licence being extended by a further three days. This has now been found to be against the law and only a three-day extension can be given for a special occasion. This could have very far-reaching effects in a particular instance in my own constituency. At the moment there is a tendency to run race meetings and festivals for a five-day period. I refer in particular to festivals and race meetings in Kerry, Galway, Tramore and places like that. I am only sorry the powers-that-be in the racing fraternity cannot see their way to extending the Curragh Derby meeting to a five-day period and tie it up with a five-day festival in Kildare.

I can speak in an unprejudiced fashion because I am a Pioneer and I think we are being held up to ridicule abroad because of a too rigid interpretation of the letter of our licensing laws and a very irresponsible approach to the consumption of alcohol. Without this Bill the law as rigidly interpreted would mean that international sales now being held in Kill, which are attracting very good crowds and bringing a lot of money to the country and providing a wonderful shop window for our bloodstock industry, would have three days in which to sell drink and the rest of the period would be dry. This would provide great copy for those who might like to ridicule us abroad and would not be any incentive to continentals, who have a proper approach to drink and look upon the consumption of wines and spirits as part of their daily lives, to come here. They would not feel that Goffs was the place to be for the last three days of the period. Weeklong sales, which are a feature of Goffs at the moment, would fall by the wayside.

I should like to mention something which is not covered in this Bill and which I should like the Minister to consider. Recently this sales complex was used for shows and musicals and functions of that nature. Last year there was a performance of Joseph which ran for a 14-week period. The occasional licence covered it then but now with the more rigid interpretation of the law, any theatre company or any impresario who would like to put on a show will not be attracted to a place such as Goffs in Kill because the licence will be limited to six days. To get over this difficulty the Minister might consider the extension of the licence in such a case. It would not be abused and it would be helpful.

No theatrical production company would entertain the idea of facilities which did not include a bar and the profits accruing from it for the entire run of the production. At this time, theatrical companies are faced with a certain amount of difficulties. Amateur theatres which were flourishing up to some time ago now find themselves in extreme difficulty. Drama festivals are running at a loss. I would ask the Minister to introduce an amendment to cover this eventuality and give it special consideration. It is worthy of that. I compliment him on introducing the Bill so speedily to cover a situation which could have had a disastrous effect on us abroad and hold us up to ridicule.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Cooney)

I want to thank Deputies from all sides of the House for their welcome for this limited measure. Unavoidably and understandably there were what the Chair described as fleeting references to other matters relating to the licensing laws. I might be permitted the liberty of making fleeting references to them in my reply.

Essentially Deputies expressed dis-appointment that this Bill was so narrow and that all matters relating to the Intoxicating Liquor Acts code which are due for review are not being reviewed. This is a limited Bill to deal with an urgent point. If one were to include anything else in it—and, indeed, there was a temptation to include one or two extra things in it—one would be opening the door to strong and justifiable arguments as to why that, and why not something else. It has been some time since there was a review of the intoxicating liquor code and it is at a stage now when amendments and changes are needed.

With regard to the question of hours, opinions ranged from Deputy Lalor's view that there should be no restriction. It was his opinion that the market should find its level in each area, that the customers and the trade should determine the hours. On the other hand, Deputy Enright considered that 11 p.m. all the year is a sufficiently late hour.

The matter of special exemptions was also mentioned. Deputy Toal pointed out that these are granted in the most bizarre situations and are now regarded as run of the mill instead of special exemptions, that hotels are receiving so many of these exemptions that they are taking business from bona fide pubs. Obviously the question of what should be the criteria for special exemptions must be examined. In addition, we must examine the standard and the cost of the meal that has to be provided to justify the special exemptions.

The question of the licensing of restaurants was raised and this is a matter with which I am in general sympathy. Deputy Wilson expressed the opinion that pubs should be obliged to serve food. I do not think we could oblige them by law to do so but they should be encouraged and I think the practice is becoming more widespread. Restaurants feel themselves prejudiced by not having a full licence to sell spirits and beer because they are put in a difficult position vis-à-vis customers, particularly those from abroad. The six-day licence holders consider they have a grievance and think their situation should be examined and this must be taken into account.

During the debate it was suggested that the position with regard to holiday resorts should be dealt with but nobody defined for me what is a holiday resort. I am quite sure that when the Curragh races are on Kildare considers itself as much a holiday resort as Ballybunion or Bundoran.

Mr. G. Collins

It is commonly known as a watering place.

Mr. Cooney

I am afraid very little water is consumed in watering places. Perhaps we might be able to get a definition on those lines. The point made by Deputy Gallagher contrasted with that of Deputy Collins and it shows the wide divergence that exists. In their contributions Deputies were reflecting the divergence of views held throughout the country. Any Minister for Justice who proposes changes in this area will not satisfy everybody. Deputy Gallagher raised the point of extra hours for hotel keepers in tourist areas who have a short season but Deputy Collins said there was too much drinking. Certainly there is a divergence between the two points of view.

The question of advertising was raised by many Deputies. The spokesman for the Opposition was speaking personally on this matter as I am and I share his views that advertising is something that has potential adverse social consequences. It is something that must be considered carefully. A Deputy on this side said that there should be something adopted with regard to alcohol advertising equivalent to the anti-smoking advertising of the Department of Health. It was said that if the advertising of drink were to be permitted there should be a balance achieved in advertising features, pointing out the dangers of the misuse of alcohol.

All these matters give an indication of the number of considerations that must be legislated for in due course. It is an area with many social as well as legal implications and that adds to the difficulties of creating a system that will command widespread acceptance. All of these matters have been raised with me from time to time and I have taken them into consideration. I have met the vintners' association and I have had deputions from restaurant owners. In addition, the general public made representations and there are the questions raised in the House. Gradually a pattern is building up of areas where reform is needed and that pattern is beginning to establish itself quite definitely. I have not yet come to a firm conclusion with regard to the reforms needed. At this stage I cannot make any promise to the House that a comprehensive Bill to amend the entire liquor code is likely in the near future. That concerns the general issues made and I am obliged to the Chair for allowing me to make fleeting references to the brief points that were permitted during the debate.

Deputy Collins wondered if the orders granted since 1962 were illegal. The answer is no. The position is that the law is as printed in the statute and as found by the courts. Until the last finding, the courts found that there was power to grant successive or consecutive orders. So long as that was a finding by a court in accordance with the court's interpretation of the Act that was a lawful finding. Recently it was held by the High Court that the interpretation was wrong. When a superior court finds that, the ruling of that becomes the legal position and that is why we are here now to change the law. It is not a question that the orders were illegal.

The applicant for a licence under section 11 (1) must be a publican. He applies to the court and he gets a licence if the court is satisfied that a special event is being held. Deputy Kitt asked for a definition of a special event. It is not defined in section 11 and it is a matter for the court to decide if the event in respect of which the occasional licence is sought is special. The court then grants the applicant a licence and this enables him to sell intoxicating liquor at the place where the special event is taking place. The licence is not granted to the secretary, manager or organiser of the special event. There was some confusion between occasional licences of that type and the exemptions for special events granted on occasions such as the Rose of Tralee or similar festivals. In that sort of situation the licence was granted to exempt all pubs in the area from the licensing laws during the period of that festival. The licence is not confined to the particular venue where a special event is taking place; it is a licence that permits in a town or a village exemption from the licensing laws for a certain period, not exceeding nine days in all in the whole year.

In this case we are talking about a very net type of thing that permits for a race meeting, a sporting organisation, a trade fair or a horse sales. The section also limits the hours in which the licence can operate from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. They are the starting and finishing limits but the court can grant the hours for a shorter period. The court has discretion to grant what hours it thinks fit within those limits. Occasional licences shall not be granted in respect of any Sunday, Christmas Day, or Good Friday. There is no argument in the House with regard to Christmas Day or Good Friday. Indeed, Christmas Day should, in my opinion, and this seems to be a majority view, be always a closed day. Deputy Coughlan in my view exaggerated the position when he gave the impression that there was widespread breach of the licensing laws on Christmas Day. I am satisfied that is not so. Occasional breaches may take place but breaches are not widespread. The licensing laws are honoured on that day as they should be.

The prohibition of granting occasional licences on Sundays affects certain sporting events which used take place mid-week but now take place on Sundays. I refer in particular to point-to-point meetings, coursing events and gymkhanas. They cannot have an occasional licence because of this prohibition. If one were to include sporting events with the intention of confining it to that traditional type of event how does one exclude football matches? The door opens too widely then. For the moment we will have to maintain the restriction on occasional licences for Sundays.

Deputy Luke Belton raised the question of supervision of the licensee in using his occasional licence. He made the point that often temporary staff are employed with the results that standards are not what they should be. I agree that this can happen and, indeed, the rush of business on such occasions is too great for the facilities that are provided but this is not a matter that the Minister for Justice has to deal with. It may pertain to the hygiene regulations but that sort of situation is cured by commercial considerations. If the contractor who undertakes to provide drink for sale does not do it properly he will not be taken on the following year. The public will make their dissatisfaction about unsatisfactory standards known quickly to the organisers of the event. It is up to those people to ensure that a contractor is engaged who will provide services at a proper level. That is the best sanction to ensure standards rather than to attempt to do it by way of legislation.

The same Deputy also wanted to know why this gap in the law was not spotted earlier. That is something that could be asked about every piece of legislation when a court makes an interpretative decision of it. It is a matter of a court's interpretation and it is not a question of there having been a mistake in the Act and it slipping through. Deputy Daly wanted to know if there was an increase in the number of special events. He also asked for a definition of "special event". It is not defined in section 11. It is for the court's discretion to say if the particular event is special or not. Section 10 of the 1962 Act states:

an event...that, in the opinion of the Court, the period will be one during which a considerable number of persons will be likely to be attracted to that locality,

That section deals with the Tralee Festival type of event. There has been an increase in the number of such events and this is not an undesirable development. It brings activity and business to an area and can lift that area considerably in terms of its tourist trade. It is a good thing to see special events of that kind increasing. I am not aware that there has been any extra number of occasional licences for events of the type we are dealing with in this Bill. They are all traditional annual functions. There may be an additional trade show at the RDS but that is something that is desirable.

Deputy Power raised a difficult matter for me when he spoke of the situation in Goff's premises at Kill, County Kildare, when they are used as a theatre. Quite frankly, I do not know what the answer is. I would have sympathy with his point but it would have implications of a far reaching kind with regard to the licensing laws generally if one were to say that a place which is not normally a theatre and does not have a theatre licence should be entitled to get special exemptions or occasional licences in excess of what is now being provided when it is used as a theatre. This is something we will have to look at but the answer at this stage is that it is something that will have to await a general look at the licensing laws. It is not something for which I would be keen on proposing an ad hoc solution. It could well be a classic example of a hard case making a bad law. I would like to look at this in the context of amending the licensing laws generally. It is an anomalous situation but the anomaly arises not so much from the law as from the rather odd use that the premises are put to from time to time. The premises were designed primarily for the sale of bloodstock and the promoters, rightly, decided to turn another penny and use them in this extra way. The licensing law anomaly that arises then does not arise from the laws but arises from this unusual use of the premises.

Mr. Power

Should they have built it as a theatre and sold bloodstock as a sideline?

Mr. Cooney

That might have been the answer. Deputy Lalor asked what would be the position of an event which started on a Wednesday and ended on a Tuesday. The event would be entitled to have an occasional licence for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Monday and Tuesday but not for Sunday. The court would grant a licence for each day and would specify the hours of drinking for each day. Deputy Kitt raised the point that if an event goes on for more than a week could a licence be granted for in excess of six days. It cannot. It is clear from the decision of the High Court that consecutive exemptions are not in accordance with the Act. I thank Deputies opposite, particularly Deputy Collins, for the co-operation in enabling this small corrective measure to go through. The measure is small in itself but it is large in its implications

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.