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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 1977

Vol. 300 No. 3

Telephone Capital Bill, 1977: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is, briefly, to empower the Minister for Finance to make further capital moneys up to a limit of £350 million available for the development of the telephone service.

Expenditure on the telephone service is broadly of two kinds. One is expenditure on the day-to-day operation of the service and on the maintenance, upkeep and renewal of existing plant. This expenditure, which is normally more than balanced by telephone revenues paid into the Exchequer, is met out of moneys voted annually by this House. The second kind of expenditure is capital spent, or rather invested, on telephone development works such as the provision of new telephone exchanges, trunk routes, underground cables, extension of existing plant and the installation of telephones, for subscribers. The moneys required for these works are not voted year by year. They are made available under the authority of Telephone Capital Acts which normally provide for requirements for about five years ahead.

Telephone Capital Acts do not sanction expenditure; they are enabling Acts empowering the Minister for Finance to make issues out of the Central Fund for telephone development. They also authorise him to borrow for that purpose. The issues are made to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on foot of annual capital works estimates approved by the Minister for Finance. Capital and interest are repaid by annuities extending over a period of 25 years.

The present Telephone Capital Bill follows 12 previous Bills enacted since 1922 to maintain the flow of capital for telephone development. Its provisions, apart from the amount of advances provided for, namely, £350 million and some purely drafting amendments, are similar to those of the last Bill, passed in 1973, which provided for advances of £175 million. This latter sum represented the then estimated cost of meeting capital requirements during the period from mid-1973 to mid-1978. Advances already made under the 1973 Act have amounted to some £158 million. The balance remaining under the Act will not be sufficient to complete this year's investment programme. The need for a new Act now, instead of next year, is primarily due to the high rate of inflation experienced since 1973 which have effectively reduced the value of the £175 million to an estimated £126 million in 1973 money terms.

The £158 million already drawn has been spent as follows:—subscribers installations and local distribution plant £67 million; new exchange equipment £44 million; trunk system —circuits and switching equipment £34 million; buildings, sites and miscellaneous £13 million.

The total number of exchange lines in service was increased by 104,000 during the period. The local distribution network throughout the country, comprising mostly underground ducting and cabling in built-up areas and overhead cabling elsewhere, was considerably expanded.

Some 670 telephone kiosks were erected during the period.

Sixty-three new automatic exchanges were brought into service including those at Castlebar, Cavan, Clonmel, Dungarvan, Fermoy, Monaghan and Thurles in provincial areas. A number of major exchanges in Dublin including those at Beggars Bush, GPO, Tallaght, Santry, Crown Alley and the new International Telephone Exchange at Marlboro Street were also brought into operation. Most other automatic exchanges were extended.

The quantities of equipment installed in automatic exchanges for connecting subscribers' exchange lines were increased by 56 per cent as compared with an increase of 39 per cent in working lines.

About 10,000 extra trunk circuits were added to the system and additional trunk equipment was provided at numerous centres, the largest installation being a new trunk exchange at Dame Court, Dublin. International Subscriber Dialling was made available in the Dublin (01) and Shannon areas to some 21 countries, mostly in Western Europe and North America. Direct dialling was also extended to major cities in Britain from Dublin and the chief provincial centres. The number of international circuits, not including those to Britain, was increased more than fourfold.

New telephone buildings and extensions to existing telephone buildings were completed in about 200 centres.

Because of the integrated nature of the telephone system the full benefits of many schemes already completed will not become evident until complementary works have been carried out. Numerous main and complementary projects are in progress on which heavy expenditure has been incurred but which will not be completed for periods up to some years ahead.

While much has been done over the years to expand and improve the service, it is clear that much remains to be done. I need only refer to the long waiting list for telephones and the service difficulties that still exist. Comparisons of our general state of telephone development with that of our partners in the EEC are still very unfavourable to us.

The telephone density in Ireland now stands at 15 per 100 of the population. This figure is well below that of France which, with 27 telephones per 100, is the next lowest in this respect in the EEC.

The percentage of telephones connected to automatic exchanges at 87 per cent appears high but the networks of most of our partners in the EEC are now 100 per cent automatic. The other exception is France which is over 97 per cent automatic. We still have a large number, over 500, of small manual exchanges serving extensive areas throughout the country.

I do not propose to labour the inadequacies and deficiencies in the service. They are only too evident; commercial and industrial organisations rightly stress that they constitute a hindrance to efficiency and an obstacle to attracting new industry to the country. They must therefore be remedied with all practicable speed.

Before I proceed to what is proposed for the coming years, I wish to refer to some general aspects of the service. Telephone service is at present and is likely to remain for a long time ahead the most important form of telecommunication throughout the world because it satisfies a basic need for extension over distance of bothway word-of-mouth communication between persons. Since it has to provide for this purpose huge numbers of communication channels within and between countries it has become the natural carrier for most of the other forms of telecommunication. A vast worldwide network of telecommunications is developing in which the telephone network is providing the channels for switched and leased lines for such services as television, data links between computers, telecopying and so on. Some authorities foresee that in the long term electronic mail transmission will become a partial substitute for traditional mail. In planning national networks it is of course necessary to ensure that they will be suitable to link with high quality installations abroad. Modern telephone systems must therefore be provided to meet high international specifications and to satisfy growing technological needs often beyond purely telephone requirements. This brings me to the magnitude of the investment required and to the time necessary to implement a programme of modernisation.

Ten years ago the capital budget for telephones was £6 million approximately. For the current year it is £57 million and in this Bill we are providing for the probability that £350 million at current prices will be required during the next five years. Expenditure of this magnitude makes the telephone service one of the heaviest users of capital in the State. The position of our telephone service in this respect is similar to that in other developing and highly-developed countries. In Britain, for instance, the capital budget of the British Post Office for the current year for telecommunications—mostly telephones— is more than £1,000 million.

It may well be asked whether a special all-out drive to solve the telephone problem would remedy our difficulties within a short time. Unfortunately, the situation does not lend itself to spectacular progress. Even for the most advanced system such as the Swedish and American, major schemes necessary for large-scale development have to be planned between five and 15 years ahead. International experience has shown that it is virtually impossible in a democratic state to expand a national telephone service really quickly because of the inescapably long intervals between initial planning and physical completion of large numbers of related works involving site acquisition, buildings, manufacture and installation of plant, training of technical staff and so on. An outstanding example in this regard has been the modernisation of the French telephone service. The French PTT Administration began a succession of planned programmes in the 1960s to remedy as quickly as practicable the relatively undeveloped condition of their system. Intensive efforts have been in progress there for more than a decade but despite the advantage of a long engineering tradition and a telecommunications manufacturing industry it is only in the past few years that rapid momentum has been gained. Investment in telecommunications, excluding broadcasting, in France in the current year is estimated at more than £2,000 million and for the period 1976 to 1980 £15,000 million. These figures are a further indication of the massive size of the demands which the provision of a modern system makes on available capital.

Coming now to the programme proposed for the next five years, the following are the main objectives:—

(1) Increase the annual rate of connections progressively from about 45,000 at present to 85,000; (2) Raise to 96 per cent the percentage of automatic telephones and provide for progress to full automatic as soon as possible; (3) Further expand and improve the quality of service in order to attract and handle efficiently a high level of increase in traffic; (4) Make advance arrangements for the acquisition of sites, contracts for buildings and manufacture of equipment to provide for continuing progress in the years beyond 1982.

This programme, which is estimated to cost £350 million, may be considered under the following heads:—

Subscribers' Installation and Local Network Development; Local Exchange Development; Trunk Development; Buildings; Miscellaneous.

The amount estimated for the installation of subscribers' Telephones including provision of local underground and overhead plant is £135 million.

The programme proposed in connection with the 1973 Act envisaged that a target of 460,000 subscribers' lines would be reached in 1978. It has not been possible to speed the connection rate sufficiently to reach this figure, but on the basis of connection targets for this year and next a figure approaching 420,000 should be reached, leaving a shortfall of about 40,000. This is roughly the number of applications on the waiting list at present.

In the past three years effective annual demand has been between 36,000 and 39,000 despite the economic conditions. This year there has been evidence of a rise in demand and, with recovery of the economy, demand in the years ahead can be expected to increase rapidly.

Connections on the scale envisaged will bring the total number of exchange lines in service to around 575,000 by 1982 and the number of telephones to 775,000 representing a density of 23 per 100 population.

To reach these figures it will be necessary to expand the subscriber underground and overhead plant network throughout the country very extensively. In doing so provision will be made for further rapid growth in the years immediately following the current programme period.

For local exchange development, the amount estimated is £70 million. In order to meet demand for new subscribers' lines, 22 new automatic exchanges will be provided in the Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick automatic exchange areas and the equipment in virtually all other automatic exchange areas will be extended.

It is planned to convert 270 manual exchanges to automatic working. This includes provision of a major automanual exchange at Letterkenny—at present in progress—which will complete the planned number of automanual centres. Some 330,000 extra automatic exchange line terminations will be installed in automatic exchanges.

For trunk development the amount estimated is £110 million. The capacity of the trunk network will be greatly increased and large-scale extensions will be made to the trunk system serving most major centres including Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Wexford, Navan, Portlaoise, Carlow, Cavan, Ceannanus Mór, Drogheda, Mullingar, Sligo and Athlone. In total it is planned to bring more than 22,000 additional trunk circuits into service. A number of major new trunk routes will be provided. These will include a microwave link to Britain over the Irish Sea between the Dublin and the Welsh mountains. New microwave systems will also serve the Waterford, Enniscorthy, Arklow, Wicklow, Sligo, Castlebar, Ballinrobe, Tuam, Galway and Letterkenny areas. The capacity of the western co-axial cable will be increased from 960 circuits to 2,700 circuits and new trunk cables will be provided to serve Manorhamilton, Edenderry, Belmullet, Kanturk, Achill, Killybegs, Clones, Baltinglass, Midleton, Macroom, Bantry, Dingle, Athboy, Gort, Scariff, Banagher and Bridgend. Major extensions of trunk exchanges will be carried out at key centres in the network including Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Sligo, Dundalk, Drogheda, Tralee, Athlone, Mullingar, Portlaoise, Naas and Wicklow. The buildings for some of these are being erected at present.

Automatic dialling facilities to Belfast, London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester areas, which have recently been made available in Dublin and certain large provincial centres, will be extended progressively to all automatic exchanges during the next 12 months. Further extensions will be made as quickly as they can be arranged with the British Post Office.

In the course of the next two years subscribers in eight large provincial centres will be provided with the facility for dialling calls direct to most European and North American countries. The facility will be extended progressively to other centres as quickly as practicable.

International telephone call traffic has continued to grow rapidly in recent years. In order to cater for further growth of calls, substantial additions to the international exchange equipment will be made.

The sum estimated for buildings is £28 million. The availability of adequate accommodation in good time is a basic essential for rapid development of the telephone service. Difficulties in acquiring sites and in having buildings erected quickly have in the past been a main cause of slowing telephone development.

The provision of new buildings or extensions of existing buildings to house telephone equipment and/or staff are already in hand or planned at more than 260 centres. Major new buildings will be provided in the Dublin 01 Area at Ballyboden, Clondalkin, Dolphin's Barn, Lucan, Palmerstown, Sandyford, and Terenure. Outside Dublin the centres will include Athlone, Carrick-on-Shannon, Donegal, Drogheda, Ennis, Galway, Kilkenny, Limerick, Navan, Cork, Sligo, Tralee, Tuam, Waterford and Westport. The new automanual exchange and District Telecommunications Headquarters building being erected at Churchfield, Cork, will be the biggest telecommunications building project yet undertaken in the State.

For miscellaneous items the amount estimated is £7 million.

A small number of STD coinboxes have been in experimental use in selected public call offices in Dublin and provincial areas for some time with satisfactory results. During the next five years it is planned to replace existing boxes with STD boxes on an extensive scale, commencing with the public boxes which are most used for trunk calls.

There are at present more than 35,000 coinbox telephones in the country, including about 3,000 public telephones—kiosks and call offices—which account for 35 per cent of all operator controlled trunk calls. As the telephone system moves towards fully automatic working, replacement of the existing coinbox—which requires the assistance of an operator for trunk calls—becomes of increasing importance in order that the benefits of automatic working to users can be secured fully.

Policy in regard to kiosks has been that they are provided only where they are considered likely to pay their way and existing facilities are regarded as not meeting reasonable need for public telephone facilities. This policy still applies in urban areas. In 1969, it was decided to undertake a programme for providing subsidised kiosks in rural areas by replacing call office telephones in rural post offices by outdoor kiosks with 24-hour service. All but about 350 of the 2,000 odd call office telephones in rural post offices have been replaced by kiosks. With few exceptions, the stage has now been reached where kiosks provided in replacement of the remaining call offices would be unlikely to pay their way even with a very substantial subsidy.

A scheme whereby local authorities may have kiosks provided at their request under guarantee against loss in areas where the Department considers them unlikely to pay their way is also in operation. About 100 kiosks have been provided under this scheme, mainly in areas where there is no post office and accordingly no public telephone. I am having an examination made of the present arrangements for providing rural kiosks to see whether they can be improved.

It is proposed to convert the larger Government manual private branch exchanges to automatic working. This will improve the service given and reduce operating costs.

Growth in the volume of international call traffic will warrant provision of a satellite earth station during the next decade. A site and radio interference study to identify technically suitable locations has been commissioned. It is expected that some costs of providing the station will be incurred in the period of the proposed programme.

The feasibility of introducing a mobile public radio telephone service enabling calls to be dialled between vehicles and the public telephone system is being examined both from the technical viewpoint and in relation to the likely extent of demand for such a service. While the main emphasis in use of resources must be on meeting more basic needs, it is hoped within the next programme period to commence arrangements for the introduction of a mobile radio telephone service.

As previously mentioned, the telephone network provides the transmission channels for various other services, such as data transmission, telex, television and facsimile transmission. At present an extensive programme is in progress for replacement and extension of microwave links for television; and the use of microwave links for special purposes such as offshore communications is likely to increase considerably in future years. Equipment for data transmission — between computers — over telephone lines is supplied by the Department on a rental basis; the demand for this service is expected to grow rapidly with the accelerated development of multiple access computer networks.

At present the most modern switching equipment in widespread use among telephone administrations is the electro-mechanical crossbar common control type. About 75 per cent of automatic switching equipment in this country is crossbar, the remainder being the older Strowger (step-by-step) equipment. In recent years the advanced manufacturing countries have made much progress in the design and production of electronic exchanges. It is clear that these will be the exchanges of the future. They are most compact, require less maintenance and offer the possibility of giving subscribers a wider range of facilities. Although many electronic exchanges are already in use abroad, there is not yet clear evidence which designs will prove most satisfactory. It is likely that within the next few years an electronic exchange will be purchased on a trial basis for use in this country. However, a first requirement here, as elsewhere, is that the electronic exchange shall interwork with the electro-mechanical exchanges already in service. A feature of telephone systems everywhere, and especially in the most highly developed countries, is that investment is so enormous that no administration will scrap its existing equipment in favour of new designs even if substantially more attractive. An instance of this is that Strowger type exchange equipment which the Department discontinued purchasing—except for extension of existing exchanges—in 1962 is still in use throughout the world, and in Britain forms 80 per cent of the network.

Turning to the general financial position of the telephone service, I would like initially to emphasise that despite losses in recent years the service is basically a remunerative one. Over a period investment in the telephone system is fully paid for by the users of the service. Moreover, an appreciable part of the capital invested comes from within the service. Of the £350 million required for the next programme it is estimated that £120 million will be financed by depreciation provisions. Over the past few years the telephone service has secured loans amounting to over £50 million from the European Investment Bank. More recently grants from the European Regional Development Fund of over £6 million have been approved for telephone projects.

For almost 40 years until the 1971-72 financial year the telephone service operated at a profit. The period of the 1973 Act has been one of exceptional difficulty for the finances of the service, due to the concurrent incidence of high inflation, high interest rates and economic recession. The first two of these factors combined to raise the cost of the service sharply and the third depressed growth of traffic and prevented the higher costs being offset by the additional revenue the traffic would have brought. A programme of rapid expansion in a capital intensive service such as telephones normally results in fall-off in profit or even in temporary loss. Plant and equipment for the needs of an enlarged system have to be provided some time in advance of being brought into use and to that extent a burden is imposed on the revenue of the service. Under stable conditions profit would recover within a relatively short period of time with the growth in traffic.

Costs increased overall by almost 150 per cent from £34.4 million in 1973-74 to an estimated £85.6 million in 1977, some £34 million of the increase being attributable to the effects of inflation. Telephone charges were increased in the same period but because of the difficult economic conditions growth of call traffic was below normal levels. The loss for the current year after deduction of interest and depreciation charges is estimated at £7.6 million.

It is expected that the service will revert to its traditional profit-earning position within the period of the programme proposed. Call traffic will grow more rapidly with the return of more favourable economic conditions. Moreover, the more rapid addition of subscriber lines, as well as yielding extra revenue from connection and rental charges, will increase call revenue. Another important benefit of the programme is the substantial extra employment it will generate. The telephone service gives employment at present in the Department to 13,000 people and indirectly to about 2,000 employed by contractors who erect exchange buildings, manufacture and install equipment, supply and lay ducts and cables, and so on. It is estimated that the new programme will give rise to a total of about 7,000 extra jobs overall. A high proportion of the jobs will be on skilled or semi-skilled work by graduates, technicians, tradesmen and other staff.

I commend the Bill to the House.

First of all, as this is my first opportunity to do so, I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and Minister for Tourism and Transport. I have no doubt that he will be as efficient a Minister as he was while he was a member of the Government prior to the formation of the Coalition Government. I got nothing but courtesy and help from him at Question Time or by way of general debate. At Question Time he was not reluctant to give the fullest information he could when asked by way of parliamentary question. I assure him that as far as I am concerned, while I will be incisive in the question I will put to him, I will give him the utmost help and co-operation that I can. There cannot be much controversy about Posts and Telegraphs and particularly on the difficulties and problems we have in regard to the installation of telephones.

We welcome the introduction of this Bill. As the Minister has explained, and as described on the Order Paper, it is a Bill which was introduced by the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and which is now being accepted and, we hope, will be implemented by the Government. The Bill is quite a short one with three or four sections which merely refer to the amounts that are to be devoted to capital development for telephones. The Minister has given a good deal of information in a fairly long speech and the House should be grateful for the detailed proposals put forward. It is difficult to absorb them having heard or read them for the first time, and I have no doubt that Deputies from the various areas will be questioning him on progress or lack of progress in respect of the areas that are to be developed in the telephone service and the other things that are to be done as well.

I note the Minister's comment that as a result of this Bill and the expenditure mentioned there will be an additional 7,000 new jobs. I trust the Minister and the Government will not take credit for that and regard it as part of their job-creation programme. This is a measure that was introduced by the last Government and was associated with the creation of jobs as well. While this job creation is to be welcomed very much, I hope the technicians who will be required will be available and will be trained to do this job if they are not already trained. The former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was subject to much questioning by the then Opposition on the lack of progress. However, the Minister, Deputy Faulkner, has acknowledged in his speech, although not in a specific way, that much progress was made during the period 1973 to 1974, and these proposals also came from the former Minister. People generally do not appreciate the amount of money that must go into the telephone service. Many people are impatient that they do not get telephones on demand. I am sure there is a priority list and that Deputies know it in broad terms, but it would be useful if much more publicity were given to the priority list so that people would understand where they are in the queue for applications for telephones.

We are not at the top of the league as far as telephones per 100 of the population are concerned, but it greatly taxes the resources of a developing country like ours to have to provide that sort of money, whether it comes from borrowing or from some other source. This, as the Minister said, is a telephone age as far as communications are concerned, and it will continue so for a long time to come. Therefore, we should be prepared to make financial sacrifices in order to see that the money is provided for telephones. It is important to people in industry, commerce and trade, many of whom have been seeking phones or extra phones which cannot be supplied, with consequent disruption of their businesses. I suppose as far as priority is concerned they would be in the front line with professional people, especially the medical profession. The Minister has been kind enough to give us the details in regard to the £350 million to be spent over the next five years. It is an ambitious and a very commendable programme and one that will have the support not alone of this House but of the public.

The Minister has said that a condition for the establishment of a kiosk in any area is that the telephone kiosk should pay for itself. That has been the policy of Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs ever since I came into this House, and that is not today or yesterday. There is another aspect to this, particularly in new housing areas. While a kiosk may not be able to pay its way, it is a social amenity that is very much required in these areas. In many provincial towns and some of the smaller cities people have to walk long distances to have a telephone available to them. The Minister might —and perhaps he and his Department do—take into consideration factors such as I have mentioned and decide that while a kiosk might not be able to pay for itself it should be provided as a social service in certain circumstances.

There is another aspect of the situation which is not debatable here tonight, that is, vandalism. Most of us have travelled abroad, and it is amazing to me that the kiosks in many other countries are absolutely undamaged and in the same condition as when they were first built. Unfortunately in this country it seems to be some sort of occupation to not alone break the telephones and the other equipment in the kiosk but break the windows as well. Repairing these kiosks must entail a huge bill for the Department. It would be interesting to discover the cost of the damage done to these kiosks over a given period.

I do not know whether this is a matter for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or not, but in some statements after the issue of their manifesto—whether it was in the manifesto or not I do not remember—Fianna Fáil promised that phones would be provided for pensioners who were living alone. That is very laudable. The full cost of the telephone would not be paid; the proposal was that the rental of the telephone be paid, which is a very good contribution indeed. Perhaps the Minister has some information about the timing of this proposal and whether it is to be concentrated in a particular area or applied to the whole country. He might let us know what the bill for this social amenity to these deserving people will be.

There is not much more I can say about these proposals, because they are the proposals of the last Government. We endorse them, and the Labour Party will support the Minister in his efforts to ensure that the programme he has announced will be effected during the period while he is Minister.

Ar an gcéad dul síos ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as ucht a cheapacháin, agus leis an Rúnaí Parlaiminte chomh maith. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh go han-mhaith leo ins na postanna tábhachtacha atá acu. Fáiltím freisin roimh an gceangal atá idir chúrsaí iompair agus cumarsáide. Os rud é go bhfuil mé ag déanamh comhghairdeas ar an ócáid seo, ba mhaith liom mo chomhghairdeas a dhéanamh leatsa, a Cheann Comhairle, as ucht do cheapacháin, agus tá súil agam nach mbeidh mé i dtrioblóid leatsa i rith na blianta atá romhainn.

Fáiltím roimh an mBille seo. Níl aon amhras ná go bhfuil tábhacht ar leith ag baint le cúrsaí iompair agus cumarsáide, ach go háirithe le cúrsaí cumarsáide. Léiríonn óráid an Aire an dul chun cinn atá déanta sa tír seo ó bunaíodh an Stáit maidir le forbairt cúrsaí cumarsáide agus mar sin de. Cabhródh an Bille seo an t-airgead a chur ar fáil chun an fhorbairt sin a leanúint ins na blianta atá le teacht.

I do not propose to belabour the inadequacies and inefficiencies of the telephone service. Neither do I wish to bore the House with a litany of the defects, and of the complaints and requests being received by Deputies. Like the Minister, I prefer to avail myself of this opportunity to recall the vital importance of an effective, efficient and modern communications network in a small country like this on the periphery of Europe, which is still undeveloped and where there are vast problems such as unemployment. The lifeblood of our economy depends on our export trade.

The Minister's introductory speech brings home to us in a very dramatic manner the remarkable story of the growth and development of the telephone service here since the State was founded. The Minister very generously, though perhaps indirectly, referred to the remarkable development since the last Telephone Bill was introduced in 1973. He mentioned that the financial provisions of the 1973 Act have now been proved to have been inadequate because of the insidious inflationary spiral that has hit us and that, therefore, new financial provisions are necessary.

Nevertheless, between 1973 and today, as the Minister has indicated, remarkable progress has been made in improving the telephone service through the installation of new, more sophisticated, equipment. It is only right that I should avail of this opportunity to give credit where it is due and to pay tribute to my former colleague, Dr. Cruise-O'Brien, who was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs during that period and who devoted such considerable time and energy to the provision of the necessary finance and to its expenditure. We find that the total number of exchange lines in service was increased by 104,000 and that 670 telephone kiosks were erected. Most significant of all has been the fact that 63 new automatic exchanges were brought into service at such places as Castlebar, Clonmel, Dungarvan, Fermoy, Monaghan, Thurles and other areas.

In the 16 years I have been in the House I have heard various Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs refer to the importance of communications, to the importance of an efficient telephone service to the whole life of the nation. I recall in particular the distinguished former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and former President of Ireland, the late Erskine Childers, and his particular feeling for technological subjects, particularly telecommunications. Successive Governments have made efforts to ensure that we would have a modern and efficient telephone service. It is something that is easier said than done because there is no magic formula which will give us a modern telephone service in a short space of time.

Tonight the Minister pointed out that the provision of a sophisticated telephone network is a long-term process. Long-term planning is essential and I sincerely hope that the Minister, being equipped through the machinery of this Bill with the finance to implement the five-year programme he announced, will pay particular attention to forward planning. I am pleased that he is conscious of the need for such planning. The acquisition of sites, the erection of buildings and the installation of sophisticated equipment, are by their very nature long-term projects. At a time when the new Government have committed themselves to the solution of unemployment, when a new Department of Economic Planning and Development has been established with a Minister given special responsibility for the functions of that Department, special attention must be focussed on the need for a first class telephone service. Failure to take the necessary steps to provide a modern communications network means that any such programme of national economic development is doomed.

The Minister shared the privilege with me of spending a number of years in charge of Roinn na Gaeltachta. Just as I did, the Minister during that period endeavoured to promote economic development to provide employment in those regions, and he should, therefore, be conscious of the vital importance of a proper telephone service in the remote regions. In the past four years I tried to persuade industrialists to establish themselves in Gaeltacht regions. Having brought industrialists from abroad and having gone to the expense of providing factories for them, we found they were unable to get telephone connections at the proper time and this caused considerable frustration and annoyance and did not help to sell those regions to potential industrial employers. I recall being on a promotional tour of Germany three years ago. One industrialist whom we signed up at that time subsequently located an industry in Donegal and it was several months afterwards before the telephone service was connected to his factory. If we are serious about economic planning at national as well as regional level we must ensure that we will have an effective communications network.

Another aspect of this Bill is vitally important from the point of view of the creation of additional employment. The Minister referred to the new jobs which will be generated through the implementation of this programme. He mentioned something like 7,000. It is of paramount importance that the equipment and goods—they are, I think, referred to as stores—should be manufactured, built and assembled at home. I do not expect the Minister to be able to tell me now but I would like him by way of letter or otherwise later to inform me what percentage of the total equipment used in telecommunications is manufactured here. Has there been progress in the manufacture of this equipment? I am aware that a number of highly technological modern industries have been established here and some of these are engaged in manufacturing telecommunications equipment. It would contribute towards the creation of new employment if special efforts were made to ensure that the greater part of the equipment required will be manufactured here. There is one major telecommunications industry, of which the Minister will be aware from his time as Parliamentary Secretary, with a factory in Dublin, another in Donegal and a third in Inishmore which manufactures telecommunications equpiment used by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It also has a substantial export business to 14 or 15 different countries. I hope the Minister will ensure that in the expenditure of this huge sum emphasis will be laid on creating new employment directly and indirectly. Above all, special efforts must be made to ensure that the greater part of the equipment will be manufactured here.

The Bill outlines the progress that has been made and the programme for the next five years. He referred to increasing the annual rate of connection progressively from 45,000 to 85,000. This is an ambitious target and I sincerely hope it will be achieved. He also referred to raising to 96 per cent the percentage of automatic telephones and the hope that progress towards full automation will take place as soon as possible. He referred to expanding the service. May I suggest that the real difficulty arises in subsection (4), making advance arrangements for the acquisition of sites, contracts for buildings and manufacture of equipment to provide for continuing progress in the years beyond 1982.

The Minister referred to the utilisation of the telephone network in computer data and so forth. I have seen this in operation and it is quite fascinating. He talks about the growth in the volume of international traffic and says that this will warrant the provision of an earth station during the next decade. There is talk about mobile radio and television services and the application of electronics to the streamlining of our telephone system.

Mar adúras i dtosach, ní bheidh sé i gceist agam ráiteas fada a thabhairt ach tagairt a dhéanamh don tábhacht a bhaineann le cúrsaí cumarsáide sa tír bheag seo ó thaobh cúrsaí forbairt eacnamaíochta agus tionsclaíochta agus mar sin de. Beidh mé ag faire go géar ar an Aire san am atá le teacht. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh go han-mhaith leis an bplean atá leagtha amach aige agus go n-úsáidfear an t-airgead chun na haidhmeanna atá léirithe aige anseo a bhaint amach.

I welcome this Bill. The importance of developing our communications system cannot be overemphasised. We are a small exporting country very largely dependent on building up communications with people outside and there is obviously a need to develop a network which will serve the country. This Bill provides for the expenditure of £350 million over the next five years. By comparison with our EEC partners we are in a very bad position. The lowest telephone density in France, for example, is twice what we have here. We must bend our energies to developing our communications service to the point at which it will enhance our prospects of getting further industrial development here as well as maintaining what we already have. Doubling the annual rate of connection is a laudable target. We find ourselves daily being approached by people who are anxious to obtain the telephone service and so we wish the Minister well in his aim.

There is one difficulty. I am aware of small business people or small industrialists who have experienced quite extraordinary frustration in their efforts to obtain telephones. I understand that they must have eight or ten people employed before they can obtain a telephone service. This seems to me to be too high a number because most of these people would not have that number employed initially and would not have any prospect of achieving that number unless they could obtain a telephone service. I would like the Minister to look into that to see if the regulation is too harsh. We are trying to encourage initiative and provide the best incentive possible to people to provide jobs. I would ask the Minister to ensure that such people are not handicapped in the way I think they are at the moment.

The Minister's statement said that the capacity of the trunk network would be greatly increased and that large scale extensions would be made to the trunk systems serving most major centres including Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Navan, Portlaoise and so on. I mention this because five years ago I was assured here that the automatic exchange for Roscrea would become a reality within two or three years. Over the past 12 months certain developments have taken place in Roscrea towards the building up of the network for the automatic system and it was envisaged that it would be operating by the middle of next year. Recently it was discovered that the Portlaoise network would not now be able to cope with the enlarged operation which would evolve from the Roscrea development. As a consequence engineering work, which may take up to two years, has to be considered for the Portlaoise plan. I mention this so as to assist the Minister in whatever investigations have to be carried out so that other towns anticipating provision of automatic exchanges, whose business and industrial organisations have been pointing out the deficiencies of the existing system and saying that the prospects of getting new industries have been frustrated in some way by the inadequacies of the system, would not be in the position of having developed an exchange to the point which has now been reached in Roscrea and of being told then that the automatic system cannot operate because the existing facilities cannot absorb the extra automatic exchange and that they will have to wait a further two or three years.

I know that the telephonists, the administrative and engineering staff in Roscrea, with an outdated system, have been doing great work and they are disappointed at the report which recently came from the Department indicating that extra work must be carried out in Portlaoise. This is regrettable. While it is naturally included in the list of centres where the trunk network and other extensions have to be provided, it is still regrettable and the delay will cause great hardship to business people in Roscrea and its environs.

I am not certain that the practice over the past couple of years of transferring to the county councils the task of providing telephone kiosks in rural areas where there is no post office is working advantageously. The report indicates that about 100 of these kiosks have been provided but that is quite a small number when one takes the whole country into account. Many counties have provided no telephones under this system. The Minister should reconsider this to see if any isolated areas without sub-post offices could have this communication service laid on which is so essential particularly in outlying areas where people may require medical, veterinary or other services many miles distant from them. In recent times, particularly in some built-up areas, a number of telephone kiosks have suffered through vandalism and when one tries to avail of them one often finds the instrument is out of order, windows or doors are broken, coin boxes damaged and so on. Could the Minister consider some way of combatting this perhaps by having a coin slot door system or some underground coin box which would make it less easy for vandals to destroy this service when it is so badly needed in certain areas. We cannot afford to have such services vandalised and some effective steps must be taken to discourage or eliminate vandalism.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him well. I hope the aims set out in this programme over the next five years will double the rate of connection and increase the number of automatic exchanges by nearly 100 per cent so that we can compare favourably with our EEC partners. The fact that we will be able to employ an extra 7,000 people in the development of this service is welcome. Following that development other business and other developments will follow. Therefore, I welcome the Bill.

Progress to date and the problems facing us have been very clearly outlined in the Minister's statement. As a new Deputy, I was surprised at the number of people with problems regarding delay in connection with telephones. In passing, I can say that any inquiries or representations to the Minister or his Department are handled with the greatest courtesy, but that does not take from the problem of having 40,000 on the waiting list. Taking only representations from my own constituency, it seems very probable that a large proportion of those on the waiting list must be from rural areas. If the Minister had any figures in that regard I should be interested to know the relative proportions on the waiting list as between town and country.

Rural areas need more and better lines of communication and their absence affects inevitably not only development of these areas and the establishment of industry but also the way of life there. It must be regarded as essential in the establishment of industry today, small or large—and small industry must not be overlooked—to have a proper telephone system and have telephones available for installation readily. Lack of telephones must be restricting industrial development in rural areas. In life on the farm today, with the huge amount of capital involved and the need to have communication access to marts, vets and so on, telephones are becoming more and more important.

Apart altogether from industry, agriculture and tourism in the remote areas, the whole way of life in the country could be improved for many people by the provision of a better telephone system. I would suggest to the Minister, in so far as it is possible in the development of the telephone system, that a greater emphasis might be laid on dealing with people on the waiting list in rural areas.

Another factor referred to earlier by Deputy Corish was the very good scheme announced in relation to the payment of the rental for certain old age pensioners. It occurs to me that somebody who has not got a telephone cannot take advantage of this scheme. There are many pressures on the Minister but I wonder whether he might consider giving a certain priority to old age pensioners living alone who have applied for a telephone. I know many of these people, some of them in poor health and, if they had a telephone which would allow them comparatively instant communication with their relatives, the doctor, the priest, and so on, it would be a great comfort to them in their old age.

I suppose it all boils down to a problem of money. I have one suggestion which may be of help to the Minister. Some people might be prepared to pay a ground rent in addition to the rental. I wonder whether priority could be given to them without taking anybody off the waiting list and by having additional people employed. There may be some people to whom a telephone is an essential who may be willing to pay perhaps quite a substantial sum of money, or a ground rent, to obtain priority. This might be a way of providing extra money, thereby extra employment and thereby dealing with this problem. The system I have in mind is something on the lines of the ESB system. When the ESB undertake a rural scheme, generally there is no capital charge, but where a single line has to be laid on there may be a capital charge or a ground rent. The Minister might consider whether something of that order might go some way towards the solution of this problem,

I also want to refer the Minister to the question of public telephone kiosks. The Minister said they are provided where they are considered likely to pay their way. That is the policy in the urban areas. I wonder whether the provision of public telephone kiosks should be related solely to economics. There may be new housing estates in urban areas from which a huge amount of revenue might not be generated, but in which there might not be any private telephones. Special consideration should be given to areas such as those. The fact that the expected revenue would not be quite sufficient to cover the cost should not be a complete bar. The Minister might bear this in mind in future policy in this regard.

Mention has been made of the scheme whereby the local authorities may provide public kiosks. I agree with the previous speaker that it appears this has not been so successful, with the result that demands in many rural areas have not been met. The fact that this scheme is in existence may be used in the future as an answer to these demands without meeting the needs. Where people are living in areas remote from the telephone service, the Minister should look at this from a social point of view rather than from a completely economic point of view. If the local authorities, obviously safeguarding their funds, are not willing, as apparently they have not been over-willing, to expend their money or give guarantees in this regard, the Department should consider the social necessity apart altogether from the economics of the situation.

Generally, the Bill seems to be going along the right lines. It is a question of how fast we can go. I appreciate the Minister's difficulties. I hope he will bear my remarks in mind.

This is a very important Bill. I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I also congratulate him on bringing in this Bill. I congratulate him, too, on doing what I expected from him. Any credit due to the previous Minister was given to him. It is typical of the Minister not to make a political football out of our telephone service.

The telephone service is a very sore point in my area. I put down questions to the previous Minister and he admitted the number of telephones provided in the west seemed to be lagging behind the number in any other area. I should like somebody to tell me where the biggest proportion of telephones outstanding is. Day in and day out in rural areas, people are coming to us looking for telephones. I agree with speakers who said we have come a long way. Five years ago there were not the same number of people looking for telephones as there are today Nowadays business people and farmers need a telephone. People tell me they applied for a telephone three or four years ago and they still have not got one.

I would not compliment anybody on spending money on our telephone service, If we are to modernise this State and keep in line with our partners in the EEC, and get industry into the country, we must have an adequate telephone service. Gort in my area lost two factories, and an inadequate telephone service is one of our biggest obstacles in getting new industry. It might be wrong to refer to a backward part of Ireland. We are not backward in the real sense of the word but we are geographically remote from the centre of communications, Dublin. We are a good distance away from the capital. We need good communications, we need good roads, and we need a good telephone service. Without those we cannot hope to get industry to come into these areas.

With regard to the need for telephone kiosks in rural areas, I do not agree with the system of selection operated by the Department. At present a public telephone in a rural post office must be used quite often before officials of the Department will sanction the erection of a kiosk outside the office. In this regard it should be remembered that rural post offices often form part of a local shop. The public telephone is located there with the result that people are not anxious to hold a private conversation over that telephone. Many people must travel up to a mile from the post office to avail of a private subscriber's telephone. I agree with the previous speaker who expressed the view that it was not the duty of the county councils to subsidise the provision of telephone kiosks. The social aspect should be borne in mind by the Department. This problem should not be considered purely from the economic point of view. It is socially desirable that all areas in rural Ireland have a proper telephone service.

I would be obliged if the Minister would tell the House if people in rural Ireland must wait longer to have a telephone installed than those living in urban areas. A friend of mine in this city told me that he was waiting two years before his telephone was installed but many people in rural areas must wait up to four years before they get a telephone. Is it true that two years is the usual waiting period in urban areas? It is vitally important that the telephone service be improved. I lauded any improvements that took place in recent years in this service and I shall continue to do so. I never make political statements here and I deal with legislation objectively. I am aware that the demand for telephones has increased in recent years and for this reason I hope that the five year programme outlined by the Minister is carried out. It is an ambitious programme but it is my wish that at the end of this Dáil we will not be saying that people who applied for a telephone five years previously had not been connected

I hope that in five years time industrialists will not be put off because the telephone service in any area is not up to date. When industrialists inquire about facilities in an area and are told that the telephone service is not automatic they have second thoughts about starting an industry there. Quite a number of areas are still operated by manual exchanges and I hope they will be replaced within the next five years. It is my wish that the telephone service will be 100 per cent automatic in that time. I wish the Minister luck in his ambitious programme.

In common with other Deputies I should like to congratulate the Minister on the way he introduced this Bill. Since I was elected the biggest problem that has confronted me is the telephone service. Four or five years ago 9,000 or 10,000 people were on the waiting list for telephones but that number has jumped to more than 40,000. Firstly, that is an indication of the demand for the service and, secondly, of our backward step into history. The Minister is seeking to rectify that position. He told us that he would not enumerate the problems involved and none of us would like to do that but some matters must be highlighted. The first problem relates to the absence of telephone kiosks in rural areas. We must not allow the people of rural Ireland to be forgotten. While some Members express the view that local authorities should not be asked to provide this service, I feel that most local authorities would be pleased to help the people of rural areas. Many rural areas have been built up in the last ten years but those living there have no means of contacting a priest, a doctor or an ambulance. The Department should see to it that such areas are given the service.

Another problem in relation to the telephone service concerns the system whereby a coinbox is connected to a telephone in a private house. Even though one pays a higher rental charge than the private subscriber, this is not a full service. One cannot, for instance, put a call through to America. One can make calls to Great Britain but to make a call to the United States one must go to a private phone. I hope the Minister will investigate this matter. I assure the Minister of my co-operation in his efforts to bring this programme to fruition.

I welcome the Bill. The Minister's proposal, an excellent one, should be copied by other Departments. It is important that Departments plan in advance. The spending of £350 million is a formidable undertaking. When exchanges are commissioned I recommend that installations be streamlined in order to cut down overheads. Every effort should be made to make available lines productive as soon as possible after an exchange has been completed. There are many other ways in which economies can be effected, particularly in rural areas. On occasions crews travel up to three miles from their base to instal one telephone but bypass applicants who live on the route. Because there is a rotation system these people may have to wait a further two or three years before they get a telephone connection. Economies could be made and the service should be streamlined. Where there is an abundance of connections available in an exchange I do not know why people who have made applications should not be connected.

In this day and age farmers should have telephones because farming is one of our most important industries. One speaker said that there have to be so many people on a payroll before a business gets recognition. What about the small shopkeeper or somebody who starts a small business? He is prepared to pay for the telephone and should be given every consideration because he is contributing to the economy.

I agree with other speakers who said there should be more telephone kiosks not alone in the rural areas but also in built up areas. In areas where sub-post offices have been closed no alternative public telephone facilities have been provided. At the planning stage of a housing estate provision should be made for the installation of public telephones. If the estate is finished responsibility for providing public telephones will fall between two stools—the county council and the Department.

I appeal to the Department to coordinate efforts with county councils, corporations and the ESB in the laying of trunk lines. If one service digs up a road to make repairs another service should not dig up the same part of the road. I compliment the Minister on his foresight and wish him luck in this enterprise.

Is main liom fáilte a chur roimh an Bhille seo a chuireann £350 milliúin ar fáil chun feabhas a chur ar an seirbhís telefóin. Is tábhachtach an Bille é ó thaobh tráchtála, turasóireachta agus cúrsaí sóisialta. Tá súil agam go mbeidh gach rath ar an Aire agus ar an obair thábhachtach seo atá le déanamh aige.

Most of what I wanted to say on this Bill has already been said but as the points are important it is no harm to emphasise them. This Bill is important from the point of view of industry, tourism and from the social point of view. We all welcome this very big injection of capital into the telephone service. We must admit that this service is one of the lifelines of the country which has badly needed an overhaul. We have had many complaints from industrialists and people living in tourist areas because of the bad service. With this injection of capital over the next five years I hope many of the headaches which have beset us will be cured.

Many people referred to isolated areas. We all welcome the fact that in future old age pensioners will no longer have to pay telephone rental charges. A telephone is vitally important for these people. It will help them to keep in touch with their families, the local doctor, the local nurse and so on. Many of us hope that rural areas will get more attention than they did in the past. It should be remembered that the people in rural areas are taxpayers— as are the people in the built-up areas —and need this service. The telephone is no longer a luxury and that should be remembered when improvements get under way.

Many Deputies mentioned the long delay in installing telephones. As Deputy Callanan and others said, it often takes two, three or even four years to have a telephone installed. With this injection of capital I hope that grievance will be removed.

It must also be remembered that as an island we are much more dependent on the telephone service than inland countries, especially when we want to keep in touch with the industrialists in England and the Continent who are flocking to our shores. I am glad to note that our cross-channel and continental services have greatly improved. One Deputy had a grievance about the telephone service to America. I do not make any calls to that country but as we have American industrialists here it is important that our telephone service to that country be improved.

I was heartened to note from the end of the Minister's speech that this overhaul will create jobs. When certain services are overhauled, they can lead to redundancies but, as I said, we are all heartened that jobs will be created in this case.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil mórán eile le rá agam. Gúim rath Dé ar obair an Aire. Is mian liom, leis, fáilte a chur roimhe agus aon rud a thugann sé faoi deineann sé go maith é. Tá a fhios agam go ndéanfaidh sé "job" chomh maith anois agus a dhein sé nuair a bhí sé in a Aire Oideachais.

I want to join with other speakers in extending a welcome to this Bill which will enable the Minister to tackle the enormous task which lies ahead of him, that is, the task of providing a telephone service for the growing number of applications he has to contend with from day to day. The fact that we have a continuing increase in the number of telephone applications is an indication of the people's determination to change with the modern society in which we live. This capital allocation will go some of the way towards meeting the demand for the telephone service.

The growing importance of that service is a clear indication of people's total dependence on it as a means of communication. It can be classified as a social amenity for the aged, for the sick or for invalids. It can also be classified as a life-line for modern industrial development. It is in this field that I think the greatest need for the telephone service can be found.

It was heartening to hear every speaker extend a welcome for this legislation and appealing for a speed up of the telephone service networks throughout the country. Greater emphasis will have to be laid on providing a better service for the rural community. Because of the high cost of motor transportation and other means of communication, the telephone service is the most economical means of communication for these people.

The farmer has discovered that the telephone is important to his business because farming is no longer a way of life but a highly competitive profession and the farming community must keep pace with the new and changing situation in which they live. The availability of a telephone service is also important to the aged and the sick so that they can easily contact a doctor or the clergy when the need arises. All these factors demonstrate the importance of the telephone service.

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of relocating the telephone exchange areas. The Mullingar exchange caters for part of County Meath, part of Offaly and part of Kildare with the result that the staff in Mullingar must travel by truck each day to get out to the areas where work must be carried out. On average they spend about two or three hours a day going to and from work. The Department cannot get the best possible service from the staff when they have to spend so much time travelling. The exchanges should be relocated so as to ensure a better return for the time and capital spent. The men do not feel that they are fully employed sitting in trucks coming to and going from work and the need for change has been mentioned to me by them. This is an area where I feel efficiency can be improved. The telephone service is not purely a social service but is a service which will pay for itself and will generate capital over the years and every possible effort should be made to increase its efficiency.

I appeal to the Minister and his staff to make a special effort to install as many telephones as possible in the coming years. I realise the problems that will arise; I realise that the exchanges must be provided and equipment must be purchased. I re-echo the statements made earlier in regard to the utilisation of the maximum amount of home-made materials. Telephone receivers are being manufactured here and I ask the Minister why more of them are not being made available? In view of the determination of the Government to create as many jobs as possible and to combat unemployment this area should be explored with a view to using more Irish manufactured equipment. The use of Irish made materials is important in relation to job creation; it helps to create wealth and to retain capital, thereby generating more industrial activity. I again ask the Minister to expedite the work and go some way towards relieving the huge volume of telephone applications we have on hands at present.

I also welcome this Bill. I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and I wish him the very best of luck in this very onerous office. The telephone system as we know it has never been in such a mess as it is at the moment. The service is inadequate to cope with the stresses under which it is being put at the moment. It is extremely urgent that we not only expand the telephone system to extend the life line of the country but that we take immediate steps to improve the existing service which is deplorable. One has only to try to make telephone calls from this House to experience difficulties. We are as badly affected here as elsewhere. In Celbridge there are 40 lines catering for about 600 telephones. That is ridiculously overloading the lines. There is no point in having telephones in houses if there are no lines to support them. There is a new housing estate off Clogher Road called Rutland Grove; consisting of 118 houses, housing 350 or 400 people, with no telephone. There are old and young people living there and telephone facilities are urgently required, in order to contact doctors, ambulances and so on. Requests for telephones have been met with the reply that there is no cable, but the people in the area find it difficult to understand why the builder has his telephone there, if they cannot have one. They were told that the builder had an overhead line. I suggest that it would be giving a very good public service if, pending the provision of sufficient cable to enable telephones to be put in, the Minister would arrange for an overhead line to be provided to a telephone kiosk.

I do not have to tell the Minister or other Members of the House about the rate of vandalism to telephone kiosks. It is an absolute disgrace and there seems to be nothing we can do to curb this problem. The Minister should ask his officials to concentrate on some form of vandal proof telephone, if necessary a telephone without a cord leading from the instrument. In similar estates where there is a kiosk nearby which has been the subject of vandalism people have no access to the Garda, ambulance or other services unless they have recourse to some house with a telephone which may be some distance away. When, for example, Dublin Corporation open up a senior citizens' area— such as some of the very fine chalets they have provided—it is very important that telephones be provided simultaneously. Perhaps the Minister would examine this very important social aspect of the system.

The poor telephone service, particularly in rural areas, constitutes one of the most frustrating quandaries in which industries have found themselves. Not so long ago a well-known foreign industry based in, I think, Sligo, had very serious problems with telephones. They manufacture weighing scales and have a lot of international business dealings. They found the necessity of going through the exchange a great frustration to them and could not carry on their business at the rate they needed. A chewing gum factory in Kilcock experienced similar difficulties in recent years. Before there was an automatic exchange it could take all morning to get three or four calls.

I am pleased to note that provision is being made for many more automatic exchanges in an endeavour to bring the level to 90 per cent within the next five years, if I have correctly interpreted the Minister's speech.

The high cost of telephones must be borne in mind also. Though many people are anxious to obtain telephones they are concerned at the increases in the rental charges in recent years which have been a great shock to them. Before the general election —when the last Government were in office—I asked how many people had requested that their telephones be disconnected and I think the figure given me was somewhere in the region of 600 last year. I then asked the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and later the former Tánaiste about the provision of telephones for certain social welfare categories. I was delighted that that was included in our election manifesto—that non-contributory old age pensioners normally exempt from a television licence fee and in receipt of an electricity allowance also will have no rental to pay for their telephones. This is an excellent move much welcomed. The fact that there are 40,000 people awaiting telephones, willing to pay very large connection fees does not necessarily constitute approval of their high cost. In certain instances we must realise that telephones form part of a social service and a way of life and to view them purely from a profitability aspect would be a mistake.

The large increase in revenue accruing to the telephone account is accounted for by the number of new subscribers and the high cost of postage resulting in a situation in which more people now use the telephone instead of posting a letter which has almost priced itself out of the market. Therefore, the false impression can be gleaned that it does not matter how much is charged for a telephone: do not worry, there are plenty of people who want one if you do not. That would be a wrong philosophy. I hope the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary will do everything possible to control the cost element because it has a very positive effect on the cost of living. Certainly in the past ten to 15 years a telephone has not been a luxury. I should like to see everybody having a telephone but one must be conscious that there have been disconnections because some people found themselves unable to afford it any longer. Indeed, the Minister might well examine that aspect in conjunction with the Department of Social Welfare, in circumstances in which somebody may be forced to fore-go a telephone because of his inability to pay. I am thinking of people who are disabled, whose only link it is with the outside world but whose income may be just above the eligibility limit for free rental.

The Minister might scrutinise also the amount of deposit required for installation, again bearing in mind the applicant's means. Let us always show heart in our dealings and in the way in which we progress. Let us not forget that it is a means of helping people to improve their way of life.

I am very pleased that this provision will result in an extra 7,000 jobs spread over the period of expansion. Indeed, it will be of great encouragement to young graduates who at present have nothing very much to look forward to and to which they may be able to apply their newly-acquired skills. Perhaps the Minister would take a hard look at the question of providing overhead lines in new housing estates until such time as cables can be provided. I wish the Minister luck in his onerous task. I know he will tackle it with the same integrity as he showed in all the other positions he has held in Government.

In the course of this debate it is understandable that particular emphasis should be placed on the modern problems of the telephone service experienced in particular by Deputies seeking to have telephones connected or who, in representing their constituents, have particular cases in mind where the existing service is inadequate. I am sure the Minister will welcome such views. On this occasion the airing of this aspect of the problem is appropriate.

In a sense the aims of this Bill are longterm in regard to the specific problems mentioned. Indeed, I hope it will have an influence in bringing about a quick improvement in the efficiency of the service. At the same time we should not lose sight of the fact that what this Bill does is enable moneys to be supplied for capital purposes of the telephone service; it is not actually voting the moneys. It empowers the Minister for Finance to provide these moneys for the capital development of the telephone service. It might be no harm to recollect that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—in so far as communications and the main part of their business are concerned, telephones, postage and so on—although a full State service, are the nearest thing in a way to the concept we have developed of a semi-State body. In these areas the Department have been ruled by the policy that they should be an economically viable service, as are the electricity services or any other semi-State service with which we are familiar.

As the Minister has pointed out, the Department up to recently have succeeded very well but obviously they were not able to accumulate the capital resources necessary for the expansion that will be required in the future. To that extent they remained rather like a semi-State body, depending very much on the State for capital funds. However, they should be able to provide from their own resources some contribution towards this heading to justify the expenditure involved. This should be possible if matters are run efficiently and generally, speaking, this policy has been operated.

I mention that because there has been much emphasis in this debate on the social service aspect of the telephone service. Admittedly that exists and for instance, the case for having a telephone available in case of emergency is very good but in so far as we treat the service and the expenditure involved merely from the point of view of a social service in the last analysis we are going back to the taxpayer to finance it. Where a service can be made economic that should be done. The more this happens the more efficient will be that service. In recent years we have had far too much experience of the State providing services which the taxpayers have had to finance. Perhaps one of the factors that was a major influence on political development in the past year was the realisation by the public that what a Government gave had to be paid for by the taxpayer, whether immediately or in the long term.

It is all the more important that the telephone service should be planned and geared to continue the policy of paying for itself because a considerable portion of the users of the service will be commercial. Many speakers mentioned the necessity of having telephone services for new industries. That is all very important but if you have to supply such services at a loss to get an industry established you are taking from the value of that industry. I do not think we should press the point too much that the telephone service should be considered a social service.

I mentioned that the inability to build up reserves for capital expenditure may have had an influence on the slow development of our telephone service but to attribute the present position solely to that would be doing a grave injustice to the Minister and his Department. Some 15 or 20 years ago it would have been very difficult to see the rapid expansion in communications, particularly in automatic communications. Even the kind of equipment being used has changed and is still evolving.

The Minister mentioned the matter of electronic systems replacing the mechanical-electrical systems that have mainly been used up to now. This is an inevitable development. As the Minister has pointed out, the development of computers has been much more rapid than was foreseen a number of years ago. The fact remains that while we were unable to develop our system on foreseeable lines at any time during the past ten years, there has been a magnification of the demand on these communications and on our resources far beyond what was expected. These two factors together mean that there is a considerable backlog to be faced.

Therefore, the provision requested here is not unrealistic. The question is, whether having provided the facility for the Minister for Finance to provide these capital sums will a corresponding ability be there to translate it into practical effect by providing the service that is required now and in the foreseeable future? Obviously the answer cannot come simply by sitting around the table or debating the matter here on one occasion.

I think I am right in saying that there has been a major survey carried out on the needs that exist and there must be a programme and plan for development. It is to implement that plan that these moneys are needed. I assume this is so, but we should all realise that you cannot change plans and complicated programmes of this nature in an ad hoc manner in order to meet every case. Some cases can be solved quickly —I am thinking of the provision of individual telephones—simply because they fit in with the stage of development at the time. There may be other more socially desirable cases that will have to wait because one cannot develop a coherent plan in a chip-chop way. It may be necessary to wait until a certain stage before a particular connection can be made. It is very often assumed that the passing of a Bill in the House or the approval of something means that something will be done. That is not the case, particularly in a matter like this.

I assume that there is a planned programme already being put into action and being developed for future implementation. That plan cannot be changed at every instance. It has to go on in a logical manner. The only way to remedy the situation speedily is to stick to the programme and to go through it as fast as possible. Changes cause delay.

I should like to join with the Opposition Deputies who complimented the Minister on his record and also on the informative nature of his opening speech on the Bill. It certainly helps one to form a judgment. It would be a useless exercise to go further into the technical nature of the matter at this stage. I would like the Minister to confirm that it is not just today we are thinking of in the development of this service, that it is an on-going process and that he has ready a programme for which he will call on the Minister for Finance for the money required to implement it.

I should like to refer to the vandalism which was spoken about in regard to kiosks and the system as a whole. This type of vandalism is inhibiting economic development, improvement in standards of living and in economic standards generally for the community. It also destroys local services. Every Deputy, particularly those representing constituencies in Dublin, can give specific cases of going into telephone kiosks and not being able to use the telephone. Sometimes the telephone is gone or the coin box is jammed. The only way we can get over this problem is by the co-operation of the public. Every piece of equipment in telephone kiosks which is damaged by vandals represents a loss to the community which will have to be paid either directly by the taxpayer or in more indirect ways.

We have a social problem in this vandalism of telephone kiosks. It is desirable to have telephone kiosks at certain points in built-up areas and in rural areas. It is of social importance to see to it that when they are put in those places they remain workable.

I could talk about the development of electronic systems, computers and the exchange of computer programmes, but I believe that matter is more relevant to the Minister's Estimate than to this debate.

The Minister said that this programme will increase employment opportunities and furnish more jobs. This is very welcome but it will do this in the same way as a building project supplies jobs. The continuation of employment in the building industry projects, each finishing in a short time. It is the same in relation to the telephone programme. As far as I can see most of the jobs will be in the implementation of this capital development plan. I believe there should be a flattening out to a figure below the maximum where the capital expansion is slowed down because arrears have been eliminated. Then the jobs provided during the development stage have to be compensated for by employment elsewhere.

One would like to say to the Minister that this employment must be found within his own service but unfortunately in modern complex economic conditions that is not always the way things work out. We are going to put in automatic exchanges. More and more automated systems mean that the machine is doing the job and fewer people are required to run these systems. This problem is not confined to the telephone services; it is something we have to face in the economy as a whole. I merely mention now that the adjustment in employment here, while satisfactory in the short term, may leave longer-term problems. The machine is taking over what the man was previously doing. I should like to ask the Minister when considering his long-term programme to ensure that this aspect of the ultimate employment situation in the Post Office services will be studied and, if necessary, referred back to a more central agency.

Unfortunately, during the past three or four years there was a very strong tendency in industry and services to try to get efficiency and profitability by using mechanical electronic equipment and perhaps incentive schemes to reduce the actual employment content. While possibly economically justifiable, in itself it is socially very undesirable. We are therefore left with a problem which goes far beyond the Minister's bailiwick, the problem of what I might call economic profitability in the accepted conventional sense on the one hand and of keeping human being in gainful employment on the other hand. That is a problem of our time and there seems to be conflict here. I know this is not for the Minister alone but I do suggest that at this early stage the Minister should consider the implications of the permanent employment content in this area of his responsibility in relation to economic viability. For everybody who is interested in these matters, this is one of the most vital and difficult problems of our time. It is a problem for Governments, for those managing and directing industries, for trade unions and for all individuals. It can only be solved by co-ordination and by foresight. I would say to the Minister that it is right and highly desirable that he should embark on the implementation of this programme which will provide economic activity and jobs and therefore render a social service as well as providing an economic benefit.

A survey should be undertaken now as to what the employment content would be when ultimate targets are achieved and a steady state is reached, by which I mean a state after a phase of accelerated development. This should not be left to the time when it may appear as a problem.

We can confidently look forward to this contribution from the Minister's Department to providing employment in the immediate future and perhaps for some time to come. In the long term this type of development will raise, as it does in other areas, the question of economic viability and efficiency as against the social requirements of the community. Be that as it may, the Minister has embarked on something that is well worthwhile. He will have a very interesting number of years before him in its implementation and I know that he will be very forthcoming in the House with information and will be very glad to seek the co-operation of the House and of the public in this development. For all these reasons we are agreed that this is a measure to be adopted and pressed ahead as fast as possible.

This Bill is welcomed by everybody on this side of the House. It is an important Bill in that it helps to develop our telephone services. During the past 30 to 40 years progress in the telephone services has not been all it should have been. The Minister points out that there has been considerable progress since 1973. That is correct. Prior to 1973 people were not sufficiently conscious of the need to develop these services. Nowadays we are much more aware of this need. In the past people did not demand the kind of communication service that is needed today in industrial, agricultural and social life. The number of telephones per head of population is the lowest in the EEC. There is a serious backlog of telephone installations.

The Minister's predeccessor made considerable progress in regard to the telephone service. A sum of £158 million has been spent in developing the service since 1973 as follows: £67 million for subscribers' installations and local distribution plant; £44 million for new exchange equipment; £34 million for trunk systems circuits and switching equipment; £13 million for building sites and miscellaneous items. The number of exchange lines increased by 104,000 during the same period. This is important progress.

I welcome the Minister's good intentions in regard to the further development of the telephone service. In this Bill the Minister is seeking a further sum of £350 million. In his speech the Minister posed the question of the desirability of an all-out drive to solve the telephone problem. I urge that an all-out effort be made. The Minister does not realise that there is an urgent need for telephone installations in rural Ireland. It is heartbreaking for people who are on the waiting list for connection for three or four years, which is not unusual. A great number of people in all areas have approached me for help in regard to the installation of telephones.

The Minister, his Parliamentary Secretary and every member of the Department should try to understand the importance of improving our telephone service. In Laois-Offaly there is a limited number of telephone exchanges and the majority are still using manual exchanges. I have great respect for the people employed in these exchanges but the service is unbelievably slow. At present you have a better chance of getting through to Iceland than you have of getting through to parts of Offaly. It is also impossible to get through to some parts of South Laois. Most of the workers in these exchanges are on a seven-day week and are doing their best to provide a service, but the equipment they are using is out of date.

Industrial development in the midlands and elsewhere is being stifled by our poor telephone service. On entering a town an industrialist inquires about the number of people available for employment, water and sewerage facilities, transport facilities and the telephone service. In my experience the telephone service in rural Ireland is inadequate. For this reason I welcome the Bill but I believe that a sense of urgency is needed if we are to come into line with other European countries.

For this reason it is absolutely essential that we make an all-out drive to solve this problem. We must have a telephone service that is comparable with that which exists in the other European countries if our industrialists are to compete successfully. A good telephone service is essential, too, for the development of our agricultural industry.

The initial capital expenditure in providing a full telephone service is sizeable and will be a heavy commitment so far as central funds are concerned, but once it has been developed adequately the telephone service should not only pay for itself but show a profit.

I welcome the Minister's statement to the effect that he hopes to increase the number of connections in the years ahead by approximately 40,000, but I have reservations as to whether his hopes will be fulfilled. The situation in this regard between ourselves and other countries is not satisfactory and must be improved.

Several speakers have referred to the question of telephone kiosks with particular reference to the damage that is caused continually throughout the country both to the kiosks and to the apparatus. It is tragic that there are people who behave so irresponsibly. The idea of siting kiosks as near as possible to post offices seems to lessen the chances of damage of this kind. The Department's policy of making local authorities responsible for losses incurred in regard to the provision of telephone kiosks in rural areas has met with some success, but on the whole local authorities have been reluctant to undertake very much responsibility in this regard. It is the view of some county councillors that such losses should be borne by the Department, and I agree with that viewpoint.

It should be the responsibility of the Department to provide kiosks in isolated areas in which, although there may not be big populations, telephones are essential. Any losses incurred in the provision of services in such areas should also be the responsibility of the Department. One can understand the reluctance on the part of local authorities to undertake such responsibility.

The whole spectrum of telephone services is one that must be expanded in every way possible in the years ahead. In regard to installations, priority is given to spiritual and medical services. After these services priority should be given to those industrialists who may wish to begin production here. Very often a person starting a business may have to wait quite a while for a telephone. Some priority should be given, too, to the person endeavouring to start a business on a very small scale, who may be employing only three or four people. They are not listed for priority service by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I would hope that in any business where people are to be employed the Minister would give priority in the provision of telephones because any move that can help to create employment should get priority. The telephones would be paying for themselves in that the people employed would be paying income tax and stamping cards and so on, all of which is most desirable.

I will go a step further and suggest that industries should also get some type of help from the Minister's Department for a period. This may not come exactly within the ambit of his Department but I hope he will consider instances where help such as alleviation of installation fees and of charges for a limited period might be given. With the large increase in the cost of telephone services the telephone bill for some industries can be very heavy. One firm, not a very big firm, sent me their telephone account recently and I was amazed to find that it came to something in the region of £25,000. It is a fantastic amount of money to be paid by a very good firm which is expanding—not too fast but still expanding. These people wrote to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs hoping that the Department would be able to give some assistance. As far as I am aware no assistance can be given at present.

The Minister's Department employs a large number of people; 13,000 people are employed in the telephone service and the Department also give employment to approximately 2,000 people as contractors who erect telephone buildings, manufacture and install the equipment, supply and lay cables and so on. One firm is manufacturing such equipment in my constituency. The Minister in his brief did not set out the amount of imported telephone equipment, such as lines, poles, wires, and also telephone directories used by the telephone department.

In the near future I will put down a question to the Minister and give him some opportunity to go in detail into some of these points. I am certain his reply will be interesting. The Minister was recently appointed to this Department. I hope he will consider availing of every opportunity of using equipment manufactured in Ireland by Irish people for use on our Irish telephone service. Irish workers have the necessary expertise to provide all of this equipment. I am certain that we have the necessary raw materials and I see no reason why we should not be able to supply at least 95 per cent if not the remaining 5 per cent. We should ensure that the moneys spent by the Minister's Department on equipment should be spent on equipment produced here. This will provide much-needed employment and will be of benefit to the country. Those are the main points I want to make in regard to the telephone service.

On a local level I ask the Minister to see if it would be possible to have a number of telephone exchanges in my constituency improved upon. He has set out in his statement a number of exchanges that are going to become automatic. He has dealt with them in considerable detail. Some places he has not mentioned are Birr, Ferbane, Belmount and Shannonbridge, all of which are awaiting the development of the automatic telephone exchange in Birr. Within the last few days I received a letter from the Minister in which he stated that it will be a minimum of three years before the Birr exchange will become automatic. I hope he will make an effort to ensure that the telephone service for the Birr area will become automatic.

The Minister deals with the capacity of the western co-axial cable and states that it will be increased from 960 circuits to 2,700 circuits and that new trunk cables will be provided to serve Manorhamilton, Edenderry and some other areas. Perhaps, when the Minister is concluding he will be in a position to elaborate on what he means regarding Edenderry which again has a manual service at the moment. This is an industrial town where the telephone service is not all it should be. Tullamore on the one side and Portlaoise on the other each have an automatic service. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us when we may expect the telephone service in Edenderry to be improved upon. I have received numerous representations from people employed in Edenderry, people engaged in industry, agriculture and other walks of life who feel that the telephone service there is inadequate.

Again it will probably be quite some time before Rathdowney and Borris-in-Ossory become automatic. They may have to wait for the Roscrea exchange to be developed. I do not ask the Minister to give me a full verbal reply on all these questions but I would ask his Department to supply in the not too distant future some detailed, up-to-date information on these points.

I wish the Minister every success. There are many people like myself who have hard words to say about his Department. However, speed in communication is all-important in the era we are living in. From the very beginning we have lagged behind in our approach to the telephone service. An intensive drive should be made to remedy this situation. If our telephone service can be improved it will have beneficial effects throughout the community. This Bill is a step in the right direction, a direction in which I hope the Department will continue over the years that lie ahead.

Ar dtús is main liom mo chomhgháirdeas a chur in iúl don Aire as ucht a cheapadh mar Aire. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh go geal leis agus go dtiocfaidh feabhas san mheán cumarsáide seo, an teileafón. Ba mhaith liom chomh maith deaghuí a sheoladh chuig an Rúnaí Parlaiminte go néireoidh go geal leis sin freisin.

I wish to congratulate the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary on their respective appointments to this Department. I wish them well and hope that vast improvements in this communication network will occur during their term of office. Everyone is aware of the poor quality of the telephone service. One is frustrated by the alternation of sound and silence in the system in which one seems to be linked up with limbo. Let us hope that such frustrations will be eliminated. There are frustrations for people trying to make relatively simple contact with neighbours and greater frustrations for business men who are unable to meet orders or to obtain information on the latest prices for goods, and for whom time and the ability to communicate speedily might make the difference between getting an order and losing it. I appreciate that the problems involved cannot be solved overnight. It is frightening to think that the £175 million provided under the previous enabling Act was not sufficient to complete the investment programme and that inflation eroded £49 million of this money. It shows how important it is for the Government to tackle and try to eradicate inflation. If inflation had been brought under control within the past couple of years there would have been a saving of £49 million.

Another problem somewhat akin to inflation is that of vandalism. Vast sums of money must be spent on repairs necessitated by vandalism, and the citizen has to foot the bill. I would like to think the Department would actually engage in studying the feasibility of providing a new type of kiosk which would be less vulnerable to vandalism. If only the vandals could be enlightened there would be substantial savings which could be devoted to very necessary capital development programmes such as this. I would like to know if any comparison has been made with other countries as to the extent to which they suffer from such vandalism.

One can only hope that this Bill, which provides for capital up to a limit of £350 million, will benefit the telephone service to the maximum extent, that not much of the sum provided will be eroded by inflation and that there will also be a certain amount of saving through the curtailment or eradication of vandalism.

With reference to new estates, people move into their new homes and see that the house is wired for a telephone. They know that the cabling within the estate is complete and believe that when this internal cable is connected to the main cable going back to the exchange all will be well. Then it is discovered that there is not sufficient equipment to take up gaps in the exchange and there is frustration among those people who have moved out of their normal social circles because they cannot keep in touch with their friends or relatives.

Delays of this kind are even more frustrating for self-employed people. Now that the construction industry is being prepared to get off the ground again many people engaged in haulage and other back-up services for the construction industry are looking for telephones so that they can conduct their businesses properly. Such people have approached me saying they are losing valuable business because of lack of telephones. I hope the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will do everything possible to help those people without whom the construction industry will not be able to recommence operations properly.

On the matter of kiosks throughout the country, quite a number have been erected under the guarantee system, the local authorities underwriting any losses incurred. I was always against that system because I did not think it right that ratepayers should have been asked to meet such bills but, on the other hand, we cannot get away from the desirability of having kiosks available in rural areas. Now, with rates on private dwellings being abolished I wonder if there will be reconsideration of the guarantee system. In Wicklow quite a few kiosks were provided under this system and I understand that altogether local authorities paid the losses in respect of 100 kiosks. Now that local councils will no longer be able to participate in this scheme I wonder will councillors have increased requests for more kiosks.

In the Bray area it is very difficult to get telephone connections. We see signs of progress along the main Dublin-Bray road. When the Shankill exchange comes into operation lines will become available and this will be a comfort to people in new estates in the vioinity. I hope these connections will be available soon. Arklow is an area where, despite many representations, it is almost impossible to get a new telephone. I hope something will be done quickly for this growing town which has been the location of many new industries in the last decade. I understand that there are only one or two spare lines available in that area and that they are being kept in reserve.

This afternoon the Parliamentary Secretary met a deputation to discuss the situation in Baltinglass. We understand we must wait for certain developments in Portlaoise and we are told the wait might be as long as three years. I urge the Minister to see if something could not be done more quickly to get a better service in that important area. The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that there will be some extra trunks and an extra switchboard in Baltinglass. This may ease the pressure and tide us over until we get contact with the automatic system, and for that reason I hope the work in Portlaoise will be speeded up.

There have been some jokes about the impossibility of dialling Wicklow town from Dublin on a sunny day. Apparently the sun rays interfers with the microwaves and we have been told the trouble arises in regard to the beam from Howth. We hope that some improvements will be made in that connection because the "bleeps" on that line are intolerable in sunny weather.

The Minister pointed out that there is no short-term solution to the problem of new telephones, that an all-out drive would have to be made. It makes sad reading on page 3 of the Minister's brief to see that the telephone density in Ireland stands at only 15 per 100 of the population, and that figure is well below that of France which, with 27 telephones per 100 is the lowest in the EEC. It is disappointing to find us so far below France in this respect.

I would like to see statistics for each of our EEC partners. Our prestige is important but if the figure is known industrialists might be reluctant to come here because time, ease of communication, speed and efficiency are of the essence in any industry. Hopefully we will move from the bottom of the league by making improvements.

The Minister outlined the programme for the next five years. The annual rate of connections will be increased progressively from around 45,000 to 85,000. I sincerely hope this target can be achieved. We know the necessary effort will be forthcoming from the Minister and his staff. A figure of 96 per cent automatic telephones would be a great improvement putting us well on the way towards the full 100 per cent.

Quality of service is very important. There are people clamouring for the service while others who have the service are grossly dissatisfied with it. This underlines the urgency for and need of telecommunication. Sometimes it is easier to talk to someone in faraway places than it is to a neighbour half a mile or a mile away. Very often when one makes a call one finds oneself at the receiving end of possibly two or three conversations. I was happy to read to-day that it is possible for an industrialist to get a direct link in many cases through an automatic exchange than it is if the area is not connected to direct dialling. That, at least, enables the industrialist to carry on business reasonably effectively.

Forward planning is vitally important in this area. Like other speakers, I hope every effort will be made to use home-manufactured equipment. The breakdown of the proposed expenditure of £350 million shows that £135 million will be allocated to subscriber installations and local network development. Hopefully the target of 85,000 connections will be reached. Local exchange development is allocated £70 million; trunk development £110; buildings £28 million and miscellaneous £7 million.

People find it difficult to accept that they cannot have connection despite the fact that there is a line and pole adjacent. If the pole does not happen to have a spare or two on it there can, of course, be no connection. People find the situation inexplicably frustrating.

I mentioned the difficulties with communal lines. The exchange says these are due to crossed lines. I suppose if callers hung up the lines might be cleared but the tendency is to hang on in the hope of getting connection. There are many problems involved and I wish the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary well in trying to sort things out.

A vast sum is involved here but there is the possibility of recoupment over a period if a good service is provided. The investment also holds out the prospect of job opportunities for skilled and semi-skilled workers, graduate technicians, tradesmen and others. The Minister mentioned a figure of 7,000. From the point of view of the economy generally this will be a healthy and progressive step.

I hope the Minister, his Parliamentatry Secretary, his staff and all others involved will be able to bring about the necessary improvements. If success is not achieved it will not be for lack of effort by the Minister. I have the highest regard for him, He, above all others, will put his shoulder to the wheel to ensure success, and so will his Parliamentary Secretary.

Is main liom arís comhgháirdeas a chur in iúl don Aire. Tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh dul chun cinn sa chóras teileafóin.

I welcome the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary and wish them a very happy time in office. They have a difficult job and have to meet many demands. I should like to draw attention to major towns, particularly industrial towns. Perhaps I shall be excused if I refer to my own county. There is great need for the automatic system in Limerick where we have Abbeyfeale, Newcastle-west and Rathkeale, all industrial towns. Industrialists cannot work efficiently without an automatic service and this should be provided, and industrial towns should, as far as possible, get priority.

We have many individual applications for telephone installations. It may be sad to say but it is essential nowadays—I hope the Minister thinks on the same lines—that where old people live alone, if at all possible and if the cost is within reason, they should get telephones, which would be great company and protection. With so many robberies and so much violence nowadays it would be wise to give priority to people living alone. I deplore the vandalism of today. We see telephone kiosks robbed and wrecked throughout the country, a very unwelcome sight. If the Post Office authorities could clear the money from the kiosks around six o'clock in the evening it might be a good idea. In that way the potential robber or vandal would not wreck the kiosk because it would become known that it would not be worthwhile. Like the previous speaker I am inclined to advocate a different type of kiosk. At present it is easy to wreck the kiosk and get money and this offers perhaps too much temptation, particularly to the younger generation, teenagers anxious to get easy money.

I have often wondered why there is so much delay in providing kiosks. Adare village near me is at present without a telephone kiosk. There was one there up to a year ago but as a result of some reconstruction work it was removed at that time and never replaced. Local residents must rely on the kindness and generosity of people with private phones in cases of emergency. This may be an exceptional case but I should like the Minister to note it and if possible have that telephone replaced.

I want to pay tribute to the operators, who deserve the greatest credit. People are very often unreasonable at night and make calls at a very late hour, but the operators are courteous and helpful even though they may be part-time workers who have already done a day's work.

A worrying aspect of using the telephone I find is that sometimes when you replace the receiver after making a call and take it up again a few minutes later you find you are still connected, apparently not cut off. I have reported this on a number of occasions to Limerick exchange and they have looked into it but I am still not happy about it. Other people have also mentioned this matter to me. When you get the bill you are inclined to believe that there is really something wrong.

I should like to congratulate the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary on their appointment. Perhaps we should rather commiserate with them because of the tasks which face them in trying to carry out this capital programme and convince people that there is some good reason why they cannot have a telephone installed. Probably Mr. Bell when he invented the telephone, did not know what he was starting but no doubt in a land of free enterprise such as the US he regarded it as primarily a business instrument which would help industry and commerce, reduce travelling and generally increase commercial activity. That is still the main purpose of the telephone but we find that it also has a social aspect. For many people who live alone the telephone is a lifeline. Even to have it in the house, although it may never be used for emergency purposes, gives them great confidence and it is well worth investing many millions of £'s in the service on that score alone.

I wish the Minister could produce some reply which Deputies could send to people who write to them every day asking why they cannot have a telephone installed. When we consider the tremendous capital cost mentioned by the Minister and realise the good job being done, we also realise that the huge task confronting us will eventually be accomplished. Can we do it as quickly as possible? The Minister spoke of the effect of inflation on our capital moneys and we appreciate this. We should not be despondent. We should allocate more money until we ensure that each worthwhile application has been dealt with.

Many aspects of this capital programme are mentioned in the Bill. There is the employment aspect, the social aspect and the purely commercial aspect. So far as I know, we import all the telephone apparatus to be installed. Could we possibly manufacture most of it here? In our drive to provide more employment we cannot ignore any aspect. We are spending £350 million on telephone expansion. I do not know what the ratio is between labour and cost. This is industrial development which yields good employment and the employment of experts. We should examine the programme to find out how much of the apparatus could be manufactured at home. In Sweden they owe quite a lot of their prosperity to the fact that they specialised in the manufacture of telephone appartaus. Most of our telephone apparatus comes from that country. There is no reason why we cannot try to emulate them by putting some of our resources into the manufacture of telephone apparatus.

At one time the telephone was a status symbol. It has now become part of our lives and today life without the telephone would be almost impossible. Therefore, it is proper that the Government should give this matter such a high priority in their economic and social planning. It is the intention of the Government to provide telephones so far as possible for people who are living alone. This is a very laudable objective and ambition. We must face the fact that this will mean putting a strain on other sectors in which the telephones are also being sought.

The Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff, must decide which should be given the highest priority. Should it be the person living alone who will regard it as his lifeline in case of emergency, or should it be the business man who says: "The very fact that I have not got an adequate telephone service is inhibiting the expansion of my firm and there-fore I cannot give more employment"? The Minister is facing a difficult task and it will not be easy to satisfy the great demand. The Minister is committed to this joint expansion of the service. At the moment, people are very cynical about this service. Members of the House who try to telephone, especially in the afternoon, get the weirdest results. It is quite easy to get a wrong number or to get crossed lines. I often feel this is intended to bring home to Members of the House the terrible shortcomings in our telephone service.

People say glibly that we have the worst telephone service in Europe but, when one tries to make a telephone call in Europe, one is very often frustrated. Probably no country in the world has a perfect telephone service. Most countries in Europe have more telephones per head of the population than we have. In some countries the service seems to be better than ours. We cannot relax our efforts to provide more telephones until we have dealt with the present waiting list. The demand will increase each month and each year because the more affluent our society becomes the greater the demand for telephones will be. The more we develop our economic, industrial and commercial arms the more the demand will increase.

While £350 million is a hefty sum, as the Minister rightly remarked, inflation will reduce that figure by quite a large amount. We will be saddled with increased taxation for many years to meet our telephone capital programme. This will be money well spent. The vast majority of people will agree with this. If we cannot supply all the applicants with telephones, the Minister should try to provide more public telephone kiosks so that, in every neighbourhood, householders can have access to a public telephone at least. We hear a great deal about vandalism of telephone kiosks but I think the position is improving. In one neighbourhood I know of, when a telephone kiosk was installed, local people were encouraged to keep an eye on it and so far that kiosk has not been damaged. As an emergency measure the Minister might consider increasing the number of public telephone kiosks to be provided.

Debate adjourned.
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