Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Oct 1977

Vol. 300 No. 4

Telephone Capital Bill, 1977: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Moore

Last night I welcomed the large sum of money, £350 million, which is mentioned in the Bill. There is a danger in this, because of past history, that when people read about the vast amount of money which it is proposed to spend they will think they are getting their telephones immediately. We know that this is not possible. I remember about two years ago when a new telephone exchange was erected in my area there was a lot of publicity about it. The people in the area thought that there would be no more waiting for telephones but we still have a long waiting list.

I know the Minister and his Department are concerned about satisfying the demand for telephones. Would it be possible for the Department to tell people who apply for telephones that they can expect to have one in six months or that they may have to wait for six years? Could the Department decide that particular applications would be satisfied in a certain length of time? Perhaps the Minister might consider having a system of priorities where an application would be vetted, put into a certain category and given a certain priority. While the shortage lasts, we must decide on a list of priorities in order to be fair and just to all the applicants.

I imagine that certain priorities are laid down in the Department but in our ever-changing society we find that the telephone is assuming a new role. It was invented to help commerce and industry. Many years ago it was a status symbol to have a telephone but that is no longer the case. A telephone is the lifeline for elderly people and many others who live alone particularly in isolated areas. It means a lot to them to be able to ring their friends or relations, the clergy or even the gardaí when necessary. We have many people competing against them who require telephones for business reasons. We can also understand their anxiety for telephones. I am sure most Deputies get letters from firms in their areas complaining because of the lack of an adequate telephone service or extra lines and we are told that this hampers their efforts at expansion.

I believe that a points system would be of great value in deciding which applicants for telephones should get them first. This could be worked on similar lines to the points given to applicants for houses. An applicant for a telephone could be given points for the location of his house if it is in an isolated area, if the person is living alone and also if it will help to combat crime. The Government are helping people to pay their rent and encouraging them to use telephones. The place where a person lives can have a big bearing on this matter because there may be cables in the area which are fully utilised. The question arises then whether new cables should be added to provide telephones for people. There could be a points system for private users and one for industrial and business users. The business people could make the case that if they get more phones in they can increase their labour force. They could even make the case that they require the telephones to increase their sales or even to maintain their present sales.

The Minister will have no trouble in spending the money although from time to time we may have different views on who should be given priority. The Minister told us yesterday that the telephone is the most important communication link in the world today. We know that a hot line exists in telephone communication between certain capitals. While I agree that the Defence Forces or the Garda should get priority, the telephone may be the hot line between an old person living alone to the Garda, which may even mean survival for that person.

I hope that the money will be spent in the best way possible and as quickly as possible. People write to Deputies every day of the week about the installation of telephones. When we send the request to the Department we receive replies which we pass on to those people. They go on hoping that they will eventually get their telephones. It is important that we intensify our efforts to provide more telephones and that the Department use the most up to date installation methods. We can learn a lot from the Continent where they have a greater number of telephones than we have. This is understandable because they were industrialised long before we were. The economy in Sweden is in a very good state at the moment. One of their main industries is the manufacture of telephone instruments. They may have certain raw materials which they can use in their manufacture.

We should try to find out how much of our equipment could be manufactured here because £350 million is quite a large sum, even in these days of inflation. We may have to import the vast bulk of the equipment but there are firms here in that line who could expand if they were approached by the Department. Every effort should be made to ensure that any part of this equipment which could be produced here will be used. That would serve our drive towards greater employment and a more efficient telephone service. We all know that even though we drive on at an increased rate there will still be a long waiting list for telephones. The population is growing and the economy is becoming more prosperous and the demand for telephones will increase. We must carry on with the provision of telephones until some other type of communication is developed. I do not see any sign of that at the moment. However, we should examine the methods being used on the Continent and try to apply them here.

In neighbourhoods where telephones are scarce the Minister should consider an intensification of the drive to provide more public kiosks. In the newer suburbs there may not be many private telephones and it would be beneficial if people who are awaiting private installations could have access to public telephone kiosks. Progress has been made on the provision of these kiosks but in some cases they have been smashed by vandals. In this city we hear recurring reports of crime and violence but in my opinion this is tapering off. Following much agitation a public kiosk was erected in my own area. I asked people if we could join in keeping an eye on it so that it would not be damaged. I am pleased to say that up to this week it has not been damaged in any way and it has been there for over a year. This service is very much appreciated by the people and is very well patronised.

One may question the policy that a kiosk should pay for itself. One can understand that in the days of colossal losses there was a desire to recoup as much as possible. A telephone kiosk gives a great return in the social sense, even if it does not give a return in actual cash. Anything that makes for better living is a social instrument and the telephone may certainly be regarded as such, especially for people living alone who may be confined to their homes.

The opinion was voiced some years ago that the telephone service should be run by private enterprise. While I am a private enterprise man, I do not think this would be acceptable to private enterprise at the moment. Five years ago it would have been acceptable because at that time the service was making a profit. The fact that it does not do so now is due to many reasons but I am not too worried about that aspect. We are living in times of economic stress. Methods may be used now which would not have been necessary in the palmy days of the sixties.

The Government have recognised that the people are clamouring for telephones. I am sure that if people were told they would have to pay more tax for telephones they would not kick very much against it. The service is not adequate but we are providing more money for its extension. If one tries ringing a number in the city from this House between 3.30 p.m. and 5.00 p.m. one meets with complete chaos on the line. That happens almost every afternoon. The staff are very courteous and they do try to help but one can feel one's blood pressure rising. The service has been examined by organisation and methods experts and they have improved matters but it is still not satisfactory. One could argue that the demand for more telephones is a healthy sign that the economy is alive and vibrant and an air of expansion prevails. This is true but even when this Bill becomes law it will not improve matters to the extent that it will wipe out the waiting list for telephones.

I welcome the Minister's statement that the proposed expansion will create 7,000 extra jobs. This is good news as most of these jobs will be of a skilled and semi-skilled nature. It is not the Minister's main duty to provide employment but we should try to provide a scheme for the training of young people in telecommunications. While old crafts may die the telephone service will go on for many years. The technical advances being made in telecommunications should ensure a rewarding future for any young person entering this field. In their anxiety to provide employment I have no doubt that the Government consider each Department. Apart from the investment aspect, the public will consider that the Government are enlightened in providing money for the telephone service and the employment of young people. As well as that the Minister should consider training more young people in telecommunications. This training will prepare them for future employment in the Department and elsewhere. There are many companies engaged in the installation of internal telephone systems.

The Department should ask the universities to become involved in this expansion programme. Our universities have reputable schools of engineering and we could draw on their knowledge in order to expand the programme. It would be self-defeating to employ people for the sake of employing them. Therefore, we should not omit any source of help such as the university engineering schools and the larger private engineering firms. This is a great opportunity and I know that the Minister will use it to fulfil the demands made on the Department. This is an opportunity to bring our telephone service up to the standard that exists in Europe but it will call for more investment. This Bill provides for £350 million and I hope the Government will have no difficulty in finding that amount. We have borrowed from outside sources and we can do so again because a good return on borrowed money can always be defended. We cannot meet all our requirements from internal sources.

I wish the Minister success in his efforts. We are moving into an age of satellite stations which will bring constant change. It will be a time of great challenge for our engineers and craftsmen but it will be an exciting time. I support this Bill.

Mr. J. Leonard

I wish the Minister well in his new office. We cannot help but sympathise with him for the problems which he has inherited. The Minister's statement gives us much hope. He said he would increase the annual rate of connections from 45,000 to 85,000, increase the number of automatic exchanges and provide for progress to a full automatic system as soon as possible.

Until recently only one of the four towns in my county had an automatic system and that town was connected to the Dundalk exchange. Not alone have we three towns in the county with manual exchanges but we have some major industries without automatic telephone systems. This must have an adverse effect on businesses.

An additional drawback is the long delay—normally three years—in attending to applications for connection. The problem in this regard is likely to worsen because of the increasing numbers of people seeking telephones. However, this Bill promises some hope in that respect. There are many instances in which people living in remote areas are victimised because of the policy of the Department not to provide telephones in such areas. This is a hardship in so far as there may be people in those areas conducting business on a small scale and for whom a telephone service is essential.

Although an automatic exchange was opened more than a year ago in Monaghan, telephones in sub-post offices in the hinterland of that area have not been changed to automatic operation. This is regrettable. In Emyvale, for instance, an exchange has been erected but the connections have not been made yet. I trust that this matter will be given priority because in that area there are 154 subscribers and this constitutes a heavy load on the local exchange especially in an area in which there is a duck farm, a shoe factory and a number of furniture factories. Business at these places is being affected because of the delay in opening the exchange and much inconvenience is being caused, too, to the other people in the area. I am not familiar with the Telex system but I understand that there are problems associated with it in local exchanges that are still operating manually.

The system whereby, in order to be given priority, an employer must have a certain number of workers on his payroll should be examined closely because there are many cases in which people such as agricultural contractors who, although they are not giving much employment, are providing necessary services but are not considered priority cases. The Department should be sympathetic in this regard.

A telephone may be essential to the success of a very small industry. It is common to see people waiting at telephone kiosks in rural areas for up to an hour in order to make calls.

Another group of people who should be considered sympathetically are those living in remote Border areas. At the height of the violence these people would have been much happier if they had telephone services but they got no hearing from the Department. However, now that the incidence of violence in that area has lessened to a great extent there is not the same need for telephones but, at the same time, these people should not be overlooked.

Previous speakers have referred to the guarantee system whereby a local authority, by guaranteeing the payment of a certain sum, could have kiosks provided in their area by the Department. A couple of years ago we in Monaghan County Council, having regard to the demand for telephones and to the long delays experienced in respect of installations, decided to avail of this system in order that 20 telephones would be erected throughout the county. Our problem has been in reaching a decision on the locations of these kiosks. We had representations from many areas in this regard but we decided to site the kiosks in villages or near churches or other places where people would congregate but we endeavoured in the main to site the kiosks in areas that would facilitate the farming community who must have access to telephones in order to call artificial inseminators for instance. We also gave consideration to areas in which there were agricultural contractors. This is another system that the Department might reconsider since it can raise problems for local authorities.

Recently the Minister for Health and Social Welfare announced the intention of abolishing telephone rentals in respect of pensioners. This is a very welcome innovation and will mean a lot to old people especially in rural areas where a telephone service is so important to them. Again, we have continually coming to us young people who are away from home, especially when on holidays during the summer months, asking us as public representatives to intercede in their application for telephone connection to their parents. Over the last few years with the increasing costs to be met by the applicants this provision certainly is going a long way towards easing that burden and I welcome it. Public representatives can take some satisfaction out of this speaking up because it is through those manual exchanges that we have to get in contact with this city. Daily we put through calls and there is an amount of delay.

I congratulate the Minister for introducing this. It will not cure all the ills; it will certainly not solve all the problems, but it will go part of the way towards doing so. The Minister said:

The programme proposed in connection with the 1973 Act envisaged that a target of 460,000 subscribers' lines would be reached in 1978. It has not been possible to speed the connection rate sufficiently....

He went on to talk about the underground and overhead lines that had to be provided. If one is driving to Dublin along that national primary route there is hardly a day when there are not P and T workers to be seen working on those underground lines which are in conduit. In most cases this work is not on connections. Seemingly there are faulty lines underground. I hope that this system will be improved so that there will not be the number of breakdowns that are plaguing the system at present. The repairs with the cost of labour and materials are quite enough for that section of the Department which deals with installation and replacements. Having to repair cables that were laid only a few years ago is a matter needing serious consideration.

I wish the Minister well and congratulate him on the introduction of this Bill which provides for this service and the improvement of the services. It is heartening to see the number of jobs that will be provided by it. This is a much needed improvement at present, not alone from the labour point of view but also from that of the technicians. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are very good employers. They have made a good job of training many technicians in my area. Some young men have made this occupation their career in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs where they have remunerative employment. That is to be commended.

Mr. Taylor

I welcome this Bill which I hope will make adequate provision for the next five years. The expenditure incurred in the last period was high and due to inflation we ran out of money. Nevertheless, significant progress was made since 1973. About 670 telephone kiosks were installed, technical equipment was improved, as were trunk lines in the areas where modernisation was necessary. There is a growing demand from the public for improved services which is typical of our present age and society and it is an outcome of that relative affluence with which we are endowed that the public seem simultaneously to demand telephone services. To provide those we have to spend huge capital sums. It is difficult to please everybody. I hope the Minister will be able to go a long way towards doing so, and I have confidence that he and his Parliamentary Secretary will do the job and approach it with an understanding of all the problems which they are expected to overcome. It is vital in a small island like ours that proper lines of communication be maintained both internally and outside. This is vital in many areas, particularly in industrial development. It is vital to tourism and socially it is an amenity which most people at present expect.

I live on the west coast in County Clare, an area remote from the centre of activity here in Dublin. Generally speaking the quality of the service provided there by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in all its different branches is quite good. The understanding and sympathy of all the staffs in the post offices and telephone exchanges is of the highest standard. One rarely has to complain and I marvel at the continual courtesy which one receives from people who are doing a difficult job with extreme patience. Both installers and technicians in this area are vital. They come to remedy faults in all kinds of weather without the slightest hesitation and they try to please subscribers.

I will refer briefly to some of the main complaints to which one has to listen. They are chiefly from industrialists, mainly foreign industrialists who come into the country. Whether or not they are accustomed to a better service in the countries they come from I do not know, but they complain occasionally very loudly and clearly about not being able to get through to the different areas where they want to make contact. Telex communication is not available to many industrialists but the Minister and his staff should give every consideration to providing for industrialists a service which is adequate and which will encourage others to come into the country. There are some things that industrialists treat as priorities. They like good communications, good road structure, good railheads, being near airports and so on. If we can give them good communications out of their businesses with their customers we would be doing a lot. This is provided but there should be no delay in seeing that anything that can be done to help will be done as rapidly as possible.

This country depends on tourism in a major way and visitors at seaside resorts all over the country often find difficulty in making contact by telephone with their friends at home or with those with whom they are in business. I would ask the Minister to endeavour to give the very best service to our visitors at holiday resorts. As regards the social aspect of the service, both young and old have a particular liking for using the phone. Public demand is growing all the time. This Bill, involving a sum of £350 million to be expended over the next five years, would seem to make adequate provision for telephone development. If inflation can be reduced it should be more than adequate to bring the service up to the standard we would all like to see.

In regard to the installation of telephone kiosks in rural and remote areas, I would like the Minister to consider the question of the guarantee which his Department demand from local authorities, particularly county councils, in areas where the necessity for telephones is great but the number of subscribers is low. In such areas the council has to subscribe to the cost of providing the service. Generally speaking, council members are not keen on accepting a responsibility which they think should be borne by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Kiosks are still required in remote areas, by the old and by people engaged in agriculture, particularly in dairying districts, and again in tourist areas. Therefore I would ask the Minister to consider removing the obligation on councils to subsidise the Department in this respect. It remains for me to wish the Minister a very quiet period in office with many successes both for himself and his Parliamentary Secretary.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Faulkner)

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Teachta Corish agus an Teachta O'Donnell as ucht an chomhgháirdeas a rinne siad liom agus as ucht an méid adúirt siad faoi chuidiú a thabhairt dom fad a bheidh mé im Aire Poist agus Telegrafa. Is mian liom buíochas a ghabháil fosta leis na Teachtaí uilig a labhair ar an dóigh céanna. Chomh maith leis sin gabhaim buíochas leis na Teachtaí uilig a labhair anseo inniu agus aréir. Thaispeán siad gur thuig siad chomh tábháchtach agus a bhí an córas telefóin ní amháin mar áis shóisialta ach chomh maith mar áis eacnamaíochta.

Tá a fhios agam ó na litreacha a gheibhim go dtuigeann na Teachtaí na deacrachtaí atá romhainn. Agus sin ceann de na fáthanna gur thug mé, agus mé ag oscailt na díospóireachta, an oiread sin eolais faoin méid a bhí déanta; ach thaispeán mé, cé gurbh fhiú an oiread sin oibre a dhéanamh le feabhas a chur ar an córas telefóin leis na blianta anuas, gur mór a bhí le déanamh go fóill. Rinne mé comparáid fosta idir an méid a bhí á dhéanamh againn agus an méid a bhí á dhéanamh i dtíortha eile chun a chur in iúl chomh tábhachtach agus a bhí sé an córas telecumarsáide a bheith chomh maith againn agus a thiocfadh leis a bheith. Mar adúirt mé, táimid iseal sa liosta dena tíortha atá sa Mhargadh Chomónta. Má táimíd chun an méid is mó a thig linn ó thaobh eacnamaíochta dhe a bhaint as an Margadh Comónta, ní mór dúinn bheith in ann dul in iomaíocht leis na tíortha eile san Margadh Comónta i leith córais telefóin. Beidh sé doiligh an aidhm sin a bhaint amach, fiú nuair atá an oiread sin airgid, £350 milliún, á chur ar fáil againn.

I do not think it is necessary for me to translate what I have already said in Irish into English. It is pleasant to find that in the 21st Dáil it is possible to use the Irish language and to be understood to a greater degree than ever before by the Members of this House. Certainly I do not have to translate it for the two spokesmen of the Opposition who congratulated me, but I would like to repeat in English that I appreciate very much their congratulations and their offers of support during my term of office as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I would like to thank all of the Deputies for their good wishes and for their kind remarks. I extend my thanks also to all those who spoke in the debate for their very constructive contributions on this important Bill. The general tenor of the contributions indicates that the measure has got the support of the entire House, and this should encourage my Department to push ahead with the varied and complex tasks connected with bringing the telecommunications service up to the level which is necessary for the development of a modern economy.

In my opening speech I endeavoured to give an idea of the position as I saw it in as much detail as possible. I endeavoured to point to what had been done during the years and to emphasise that although a considerable amount had been done the problem facing us is still an immense one. I went on to underline what we propose to do to meet all the problems. I dealt with these matters in a detailed way in order to present Deputies with an opportunity to discuss the Bill in the way they would have liked to deal with it, and I am glad that the discussion we have had illustrates this.

The Government have announced that they regard job creation as the most urgent task facing us. Many more new jobs are needed not only to reduce the present high level of unemployment but to make provision for the considerable number of school leavers who will join the labour force in the next decade. Basic to a programme of rapid job creation is provision for an infrastructure which will facilitate expansion of existing manufacturing and commercial concerns and which will make the country more attractive to foreign investors. A modern efficient telecommunications service is an essential element of such an infrastructure.

Deputies stressed that towns in which the telephone service is less than satisfactory are at a serious disadvantage in their effort to expand local job opportunities. I agree, and I propose to press forward with development plans with all possible speed. As far as I am concerned nothing that can be done to improve matters will be left undone. Of course it would be unrealistic to expect too much too soon. I do not say that because of any lack of a sense of urgency in relation to this work. Part of my opening speech was interpreted in that way last night by Deputy Enright. I assure him and other Deputies that I am well aware of the urgency, and even Deputies who have been in the House for a relatively short time will appreciate this from the correspondence they get in relation to the telephone system.

As I said in my opening speech, it takes a long time to achieve the momentum for a spectacular breakthrough in the telecommunications business. Capital investment on a large scale, long term advance planning and major development work over a number of years are necessary to expand and to modernise the telephone system, particularly one such as ours which is still relatively undeveloped. I quoted the scale of investment that is still necessary in Britain and the time it has taken in France to achieve a breakthrough as an indication of the magnitude of the task facing the Department. Continuing intensive investment during a number of years will be needed before we will have a service equal to the best elsewhere.

I now turn to the comments, suggestions and criticisms made by Deputies on both sides of the House. Deputy Corish mentioned the problem of vandalism, which is not of course unique to this country. Many other telecommunications administrations throughout the world are wrestling with it. Britain has tried out numerous schemes to prevent vandalism in kiosks, particularly in urban areas, but I understand these efforts have not been wholly successful. I agree with the Deputy but I would point out that the Department have taken steps to minimise the damage to kiosks by vandals. Various measures have been taken to render kiosks less susceptible to vandalism, including the fitting of steel plates to coin boxes, the use of large sheets of plastic material instead of glass, provision of better lighting and the fitting of a specially reinforced coinbox.

I think the Deputy asked for information about the cost of repairing such damage. It is very high. The cost of repairing damaged kiosks in Dublin, where the incidence is greatest, was about £84,000 in a recent year and according to our information it appears to be running at the same level this year. The number of cases of extensive physical damage to kiosks has diminished in the last few years as a result of the installation of strengthened coinboxes, but those who spent their time at that kind of vandalism have changed over to making the coinboxes inoperable by other means. Special maintenance attention is given to public telephones. Those in Dublin city centre and suburban areas are inspected daily, Monday to Friday, and in the remainder of the State maintenance attention ranges from daily maintenance in the cities and larger towns to weekly inspections in the more remote areas. Reports in respect of public telephones are given priority attention in all areas.

I agree with the Deputies who said it would be a useful exercise to direct public opinion towards this type of vandalism. The public should be informed that not only is this kind of vandalism creating a serious social problem in many areas but that it is also responsible in many instances for loss of employment. The public at large might make it clear to vandals that they will see to it such hooliganism will be stopped. We had an example of this recently in Croke Park during an all-Ireland final when a small group were intent of creating problems but the adults in that area soon put a stop to it.

Debate adjourned.