Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 1977

Vol. 300 No. 8

Garda Síochána Bill, 1977: Second Stage.

Minister for Justice (Mr. G. Collins)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is in essence an agreed measure in that it proposes to implement policy decisions taken by the previous Government to which I and my colleagues in the present Government fully subscribe. It is an agreed measure also in the sense that it reflects an agreement reached earlier this year with two of the Garda representative bodies following negotiations between the Department of Justice and the bodies initiated by my predecessor.

As will be fairly clear to Deputies, the main purpose of the Bill is to make certain amendments in the existing law governing the establishment and functioning of the Garda representative bodies. The amendments proposed are those which are necessary to enable effect to be given to an agreement with the Representative Body for Inspectors, Station Sergeants and Sergeants and the Representative Body for Guards. That agreement, as I have said, was concluded during my predecessor's term of office, and I would like to pay tribute to the role which he played in bringing about the agreement.

I should add that discussions have also taken place with the Representative Bodies for Chief Superintendents and Superintendents and I expect that agreement will soon be reached with them as well.

The introduction of this Bill gives me the opportunity to place on record my appreciation of the valuable work done by all the representative bodies, and by their elected representatives at the various levels, in attending to and promoting the interests of their members. The bodies play an important role in the maintenance of good relations and understanding between the members of the various ranks and their authorities. Indeed, this kind of link is important not alone for the members that the bodies represent but also for Garda management. The present agreement and the understanding reached between the parties following the negotiations during the past year are indicative of the constructive approach that was adopted by all concerned.

The amendments that are necessary to give effect to the agreement fall to be made in section 13 of the Garda Síochána Act, 1924, which at present provides for the establishment in accordance with ministerial regulations of representative bodies elected by the members of the various ranks—and here I quote—"for the purpose of enabling the members of the Garda Síochána to consider and bring to the notice of the Commissioner and the Minister matters affecting their welfare and efficiency, other than questions of discipline and promotion affecting individuals". Section 13 as it stands prohibits the bodies from associating with any body or person outside the Force. Under the existing regulations the affairs of the bodies are controlled to a considerable degree by the Commissioner. The controls extend to such matters as the dates, frequency and duration of meetings at the various levels. Furthermore, it is the Garda authorities rather than the members who conduct elections. All members are entitled to vote, or to be nominated for office, irrespective of whether they are subscribers to representative body funds.

These arrangements have for some time past been a source of growing dissatisfaction among members of the Garda Síochána and, in response to pressure from members, the representative bodies sought freedom from the present restrictions. The bodies initially sought full trade union status, with freedom to strike, which is prohibited by section 14 of the 1924 Act. My predecessor made it clear at the outset, in a preliminary meeting with the bodies, that he could not agree to concede trade union status or the right to strike, as he saw these matters as incompatible with the functions and responsibilities that are discharged by members of the force. That is a view with which the present Government are in full agreement. My predecessor did, however, agree that there should be a relaxation of the existing controls to the extent necessary to enable the bodies to reconstitute themselves into the equivalent of an independent staff association, with freedom to draw up their own constitution, conduct their own elections and generally manage their own affairs.

That is the essence of the agreement that was subsequently reached with the bodies. It is possible to provide some of the necessary changes in new regulations. There are, however, other changes which require the amendment of section 13 of the 1924 Act. It is necessary, firstly, to amend the section to enable the new bodies to represent their members generally in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency and not just to bring such matters "to the notice of the Commissioner and of the Minister". Secondly, the existing provision which prohibits the bodies from making representations on behalf of individual members in matters affecting discipline and promotion needs to be repealed. Thirdly, the wording of section 13 needs to be amended so as to enable participation in the election of representative bodies to be confined to those who pay their subscriptions to representative body funds. It has been agreed with the bodies, however, that, in the first elections to take place under the new arrangement, every member will have a vote.

The amended section will modify the prohibition which is there at present on representative bodies associating with bodies or persons outside the force. In future it will be possible for the Minister for Justice to authorise the bodies to associate with outside persons and associations subject to such conditions and restrictions as he may specify. Agreement has already been reached with the bodies as to the kinds of outside organisations with whom they may reasonably expect to be allowed to associate. The bodies may, for example, wish to employ outside consultants to assist them in the preparation of claims or otherwise advise them on matters connected with the discharge of their functions.

They may also wish to liaise with international associations of police organisations whose functions is to exchange information on matters of common interest.

Finally, the term "representative body" is being dropped in favour of the term "association" as the present bodies wish to depart from the old terminology to help to improve their status and image.

For the convenience of those who will subsequently be concerned with the interpretation and application of section 13 of the 1924 Act as amended, the text of the section is re-enacted in full with the various amendments incorporated in it. The substantive amendments are confined to sub-section (1) and subsection (5), which is a new subsection. Subsections (2) and (3) each show only one minor textual amendment as compared with the original and subsection (4) is unchanged.

Section 2 of the Bill proposes a simplification of the procedure for the bringing into operation of Garda Síochána pensions orders. What is proposed is the introduction of the procedure that has already been agreed to by the Oireachtas in relation to pension schemes elsewhere in the public service, including the Army. At present, before a Garda pensions order can come into operation it must be confirmed by resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas. The new procedure would enable the order to come into operation immediately it is made. The order, would, however, be laid before each House and could be annulled by resolution of either House within 21 sitting days. These pensions orders do not arise very frequently but when they do I am sure the House will agree that it is fitting that they should be dealt with in the same way as comparable orders in relation to other groups in the public service.

I think that it is unnecessary for me to say any more about the Bill other than to make the point that I believe in all sincerity that the changes in role and status which have been agreed with the Garda representative bodies constitute a fair and reasonable compromise between their present situation and the claim which they originally made for full trade union status. As in all matters of this kind, the working out of an agreed package has involved give-and-take on both sides and I am happy that negotiations were successfully concluded to the satisfaction of all concerned.

I commend the Bill to the House and I would ask that it be given favourable and speedy consideration.

Mr. Harte

My first duty is to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to the office of Minister for Justice and to wish him well during his term of office. I do so because I recognise that possibly above all other portfolios in the Cabinet the office of Minister for Justice bears very heavy responsibilities and onerous duties. I take this opportunity of wishing the Minister good health and strength to carry out his duties.

We will co-operate with him and assist him in every way possible in what is our common concern for the maintenance of law and order. We will attempt to be fair in our comments and be constructive and helpful in our criticism. We hope the Minister will respond in a practical and meaningful way to our arguments and the attitudes we express from time to time. Our contribution will be aimed at improving the standard of security and the fair but firm application of law and order. For that reason we welcome the Bill.

I want to put on record that this Bill was the work of the former Minister, Senator Cooney. I would also like to put on record, and I would hope the House would join with me, in paying a tribute to the former Minister for Justice for the manner in which he carried out his duties in those four very difficult years. This Bill is but a very small part of the work he did.

The recognition being given here, while welcome and desirable, leaves a lot more to be done. The purpose is to ensure that the force have a proper negotiating basis and that their grievances are listened to. The changes proposed were negotiated while the Coalition Government were in office and I hope this leaves the way open for speedy settlement of outstanding claims, which include rent allowances, pensions and equal pay, night duty allowances, meal breaks and the special position of Garda clerks. These are matters of such importance to members of the Garda that to delay a decision on them would undoubtedly have a detrimental effect on the general morale of the force.

If we in public life, in the greater interest of all our citizens and institutions, are serious about law enforcement, then it is imperative that we have a good and constantly improving relationship with the Garda through this representative body. I appreciate that it is a little soon for a new Minister to come to terms with all the things that are required, but I hope delays will be avoided.

The fact that this Act has not been changed since 1924 gives an indication of the foresight of the men who drew up the Act to govern the relationship between the Government and the police force in those trying days. It is also to be noted that there had never been a survey of the Garda force until Senator Cooney, as Minister for Justice, commissioned such a report. I understand that report is now available and perhaps the Minister might circulate it soon.

It is a tribute to the then Minister that in four terrible years of trying times he found time to attend to the matters I have mentioned. I believe we should show our appreciation of the work being done by our Garda and not delay in granting basic claims and improving conditions.

We must never lose sight of the fact that our police force are at the foundation of our society and the manner in which the officers and men carry out their duties determines the kind of society we can have. A dissatisfied force cannot be expected to be as efficient or as effective as one which is content and appreciated. The duties they carry out and the sacrifices they make must receive the proper recognition and support of Parliament and people.

One point I believe should be made in this debate is that the relationship between the Garda and the people must always be good and working in both directions, but the relationship between Parliament and the Garda is vital, both for the members of the force and the State itself. All political parties should have stronger links with the Garda Representative Body on a more open basis. It must never be seen that the Garda force serve only the Government or are loyal only to the Cabinet: they must be seen to serve the people. The representatives of all the people in Dáil Éireann must have an open and healthy relationship with the force.

It will be said that this is the case— and I agree that it is to an extent— but the ordinary people are often left thinking that because the political head of the Department of Justice is a Cabinet Minister and because the ranks above that of superintendent are Government appointments, the officers and ambitious men in the ranks are often more inclined to the Government in power than to any other political party.

Without confusing both positions, but for a moment reflecting on what happened in Northern Ireland, one can see the horrible dangers of the Government and not the Parliament getting too close to the police force. I might add that it is on record that on a number of occasions the Northern police force expressed a very strong desire to be independent and free from party politics. It is correct to say that our Garda force have never as a body become involved in party politics. With the police force in Great Britain, our force are the only other unarmed police force in Europe.

One point which can be overlooked by the casual observer and, indeed by administrators, is the fact that an unarmed police force needs more men and women to maintain law and order and, even more important and more desirable, to prevent crime. The people who are police bashing at the moment might consider this point. If any single individual breaks ranks and draws criticism to the police force, the specific should not be made the general and any isolated case of alleged police brutality should be seen as perhaps a human error or as an individual taking onto himself the right to use more physical force than is justified.

That should not be used as criticism of our police force. It is openly acknowledged by all police authorities in the world that the presence of a policeman and the fear of being caught prevent crime more than anything else. Therefore, the Minister should step up the recruiting drive which was undertaken by the National Coalition and which is necessary if law and order and the smooth running of society is to be maintained. There are plenty of young men and women leaving colleges and universities with literally no job prospects and the number of applicants for admission to the force is such that all places could be filled literally within hours. The Department should consider setting up an academy for young men below the age limit to be received into the police force much the same as the cadet school which now attracts bright young men into the Army. If such an institution were organised by the Minister, young boys and girls leaving post-primary schools wishing to join the police force would be given an opportunity to train as members of the force and would be ready as qualified people when they reached the age limit. This is something which many police forces in the world have and, perhaps, the Minister would consider this.

I pay tribute to the police force, not alone the police force of today, but to the police force as it was formed 55 years ago. George Bernard Shaw once said that doctors should be valued not on the amount of disease they cured but according to the absence of disease. Unfortunately, a doctor's work is only valued when people are ill. Likewise it can be said that the Garda Síochána exist for the smooth running of public order and secondly to enforce the law where and when it is broken. Their services and commitment to duty are often not noticed or appreciated until they are needed. At the birth of the Garda Síochána the world were astonished that out of the ruin, chaos and insurrection, at a time of immense internal disquiet, an unarmed force emerged. It was said that the idea of an unarmed police force for that period was, for practical purposes, too idealistic. Looking back after 55 years, one can say with pride that the decision was not alone courageous but a successful experiment. When we consider that the Irish people for generations before that time had the tradition of being against the Government and against the agents of government, and that in the immediate decade prior to that the rule of law and order had broken down, and where some people had still little regard for property, we see in some small way the major contribution the young, often inexperienced men, of that period made to the creation of this nation.

It should also be remembered that they were replacing a police force which had been famed as a vigorous and efficient military machine, which was anything but popular with the people. Their duties also brought them face to face with the wave of national enthusiasm which was sweeping the country and in many cases they were trying to subdue old comrades and high emotional friends of the past. In the face of all this challenge the Garda Síochána emerged as a mature well-disciplined and proud body of men. Their path has been challenged at different times since then and with pride of purpose their officers and men, with few exceptions, have met those challenges determined to succeed. I am confident that the challenge they have before them now will be dealt with in a proper and successful manner. One thing above all else which has made our police force the success that it is as an unarmed force is that its members come from the people. They are part of the people whom they serve. In its ranks there are men from all classes and creeds in the community, with professional commercial and farming backgrounds. Their past record of service to this nation has been astounding. I salute those who had the task of forming the force, some of whom I have known personally and the present membership.

I have one small criticism. It happens that when people come into our community, either as strangers or as people returning home, the first people they meet, at sea ports, airports or land frontiers are members of the Garda Síochána. It has been brought to my attention that gardaí are sometimes less courteous and too casual in their attention to simple requests. This could leave a long and lasting wrong impression in the minds of these people when they return to their homes. I know the men I refer to do not create that impression intentionally. Perhaps the Minister would bring to the attention of the senior officers of the Garda Síochána that more emphasis be put on public relations and stress to the gardaí on these duties that they are our ambassadors at a time when Ireland needs to regain her pride and when the Irish people are fighting to be a part of western society against odds where bad propaganda and wrong reports have painted a picture that all of the Irish are fighting. The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána should take note that when young gardaí are put on duty for the first time this point is emphasised.

I welcome this Bill. It is one which was negotiated during the term of the National Coalition Government. We are supporting this Bill. In my capacity as spokesman for security, I believe that there is a wrong impression throughout the country, that the Garda can be the limb of the law, as far as the Government in power is concerned. I suggest that the Minister seriously consider setting up a police authority comprised of members of all parties, together with professional people, who could advise on the manner in which the police force would be well conducted. It goes without saying that if the political head of the Department of Justice is a Cabinet Minister and if it is accepted that the Government take decisions which directly affect the promotion of officers in the Garda, members within the force might feel that it would be better for them to be part of a political machine. I am not suggesting that they would all be Fianna Fáil supporters, I admit that members might want to be associated with the Fine Gael Party. This is wrong and the Garda do not want to be associated with any political movement but the system as it works dictates the position. The Minister should consider changing that system so that the police authority I have suggested could be organised and the police force would relate to parliament and in that way no matter what party was in power, or no matter what the political scene was, the Garda Síochána would be seen as the arm of the law which upholds the wish of the people and will be responsible to the representatives of the people irrespective of what party they belong to.

I can assure the Minister that, so far as this party are concerned, we will be as responsible as he would expect and will co-operate in every way possible in the common aim of maintaining law and order and ensuring that the institutions of the State are not threatened.

Mrs. Desmond

I welcomed the Minister to his new office on another occasion and I do so again now. I am in full agreement with the Minister and the Fine Gael spokesman on the merits of this Bill. I know it has emanated as a result of protracted discussions between the representatives of the Garda and the Department of Justice, indeed between them and the former and present Minister. While I am aware it does not meet all the requirements of the representative body I am mindful also that the Garda are very anxious that the Bill be enacted and that elections be proceeded with. This party will not impede its passage. I am aware that the right to apply for affiliation to the Congress of Trade Unions has not been ceded to the Garda. I can envisage reasons. Nonetheless, I would ask the Minister not to look upon this as a final settlement but rather to envisage a situation in which more freedom would be afforded the Garda force to recognise—as he does—that they are human beings with families and problems having an even greater need than most other workers to protect their terms of employment. Therefore they must be afforded the maximum of freedom consistent with their role which has become increasingly difficult with the passage of the years.

Indeed, I speak as one who called for an investigation into various allegations made recently. Nonetheless I want to place on record this evening as our party spokesman, that we are very keenly aware of the debt that we, as a people, owe them. I speak being aware of that debt and of their high reputation which necessitates still further that their image remains untarnished. It was for that purpose that I called for an investigation, in an endeavour to ascertain whether or not the allegations made were justified, least there were any members of the force who deviated in any way from the high standard maintained by the vast majority of their number. I felt such an investigation was justified, again in an endeavour to maintain their good name. Such would be in their best interest and in the interest also of any possible victims. We must all be aware that their task has become very difficult. In 1976 it was estimated that some £3,100,000 were paid out on malicious injuries claims in Dublin alone, which indicates the level and increase in violence of that nature.

There is also the other type of violence and lawlessness which cannot be measured in pounds, shillings and pence. That also is tremendous burden on the force. I know there are members of the force who have committed themselves to duty beyond the norm, members who have gone back after hours to assist victims of personal injury and so on and we should place on record our indebtedness to them. We should ensure that anything we can willingly do by way of making their lot an easier one, by way of raising their morale or of improving their conditions is done.

Reference was made recently to arming the force and to the introduction on the streets of dog patrols. I totally abhor that proposition. I believe it would merely increase the level of violence. If I know the men themselves at all, I do not believe that they wish this to be done. I do not think the Minister is contemplating anything of the kind. The image of the Garda Síochána as a peaceful force is the one we must maintain even in the face of the increased lawlessness of recent times. In a debate on law and order in this House almost a year ago the Minister estimated that it would take 2,000 to 3,000 extra gardaí to meet the needs of the time. Perhaps he has in mind increasing the force; I do not know. Certainly in the interests of the old, infirm and those most in need of help an increase of Garda patrols is vital.

However, there is another aspect of violence the roots of which go far deeper into society and which no number of Garda personnel on the ground will solve. I refer to people from broken homes, the victims of child battering, people who could not make their way to school, who cannot now get employment but rather are almost forced into a life of violence. We must endeavour to get at the roots of these evils in society. We must remember also that violence and crimes of violence are not peculiar to areas of deprivation alone. They are to be found amongst the products of the homes of the better-off classes in our society.

Indeed, it might be as well for us to pay some attention to a comment made in The Irish Times of yesterday, the type of comment frequently made. We all tend to blame lack of housing, of adequate recreational facilities, employment opportunities and so on as contributing factors. However, at a recent conference in Galway run by the Medical Union, a juvenile liaison officer—somebody who might be said to have a very keen insight into these problems—in the Dublin area attributed a lot of this violence to those factors and reminded us also that teenage crime was by no means limited to the city centre or to deprived areas. He contended that much of the problem lay in suburbia. He invited the doctors he was addressing to consider the difference between the application of the law to young people from deprived areas and to wealthy offenders and university students. Indeed, such discrimination in the application of the law might create frustration within the members of the force if they feel that such a difference in application is applied to various people they apprehend and bring before the courts. Any provision of this Bill that might tend to lower the morale of the Garda warrants comment. I welcome the Bill as a step forward. I can envisage greater freedom of association for the Garda Síochána in the future but in so far as it represents the burden of their requirements and in so far as they need speedy passage of the Bill, on behalf of the Labour Party I intend to afford that passage to it.

Mr. N. Andrews

In common with other Members, I welcome the opportunity of congratulating the Minister on introducing this Bill. I have no doubt that already he is determined to make an impact on his portfolio as Minister for Justice. In the few short months he has been in office he has created a considerable impact and has improved the image of his Department beyond recognition. For that I welcome his appointment.

This Bill goes a long way towards restoring the morale of the Garda Síochána. During the years they have had an increasingly difficult and frustrating job. They deserve and must receive the support necessary to combat the evil that is causing so much distress on our streets and within our community. In South County Dublin and in Dublin itself vandalism has reached a peak the likes of which I can assure the House nobody has seen before. The destruction of schools and property and the destruction of people's lives because of robberies and housebreakings have caused much distress in the community.

I am happy to be able to say that the Garda Síochána in South County Dublin have shown tremendous restraint and great goodwill towards the community generally and they have the respect of the community. We are fortunate to belong to a society where there is a virtually no class distinction. There is very little class consciousness and there is little or no polarisation of authority. However, in our cities we have the growing problems of vandalism and deliquency. Whatever the sociologists may say about the root causes of such problems, of inadequate homes and overcrowded schools, one thing is certain. We must rely on the Garda Síochána to protect us from the thugs and criminal elements who are increasingly evident on the streets.

This Bill goes a long way towards providing status for the Garda Síochána, status that is long overdue. The members of the force are men and women drawn from the community. I suppose next to the clergy they are as closely in touch with the people as any other professional group. They live among them and many of them are involved at all levels with the young people as well as with the older citizens in the youth and community associations. It would be nice to see the Garda Síochána encouraged to become even more closely involved in the affairs of the community. Their role in the community should be a positive one. They should aim to be regarded by the young especially as not merely people dealing with offenders but as protectors of the people. They should be encouraged to visit schools and to talk to the children as friends so that the children will look up to them as such. They should develop close relationships with teachers, with the leaders of the community generally and with parents' associations. During the years the Garda Síochána have gained great prestige. It can be fairly said that the vast majority of people look to the force with respect for their authority. They are the symbol of authority but it is an authority that is correctly administered with compassion and understanding and that is something all of us welcome.

I do not believe that there is an adequate replacement for the local foot patrol, and I know most urban Deputies would agree with me. A few months ago the practice was to send one guard in a car to cover an area but this was totally inadequate. If he got out of his car and left it, it was stolen. That happened on one occasion, not in my constituency. It is good that the Minister has brought back the two-man squad car. I would encourage him, if possible, to introduce the community policeman, the garda who is in touch with the local community. When I was young I remember we played on the streets in Dundrum. Sometimes we were chased by the gardaí and other times they joined us. There is very little in the modern-day scheme of things that can provide for that kind of levity.

All of us know the Garda Síochána are under extreme pressure. There is no point in undermining their confidence any more than has been done. We owe it to them to give them the funds and equipment they need but above all respect and understanding so that they can get on with the job. In turn we can expect from them true professionalism, something that for one reason or another is sometimes found wanting. They are not perfect. They are like the rest of us; they have their problems and faults. As I pointed out, they are drawn from the people of this land, they are of us and for us and they certainly deserve our support.

I should like to draw the attention of the House to the bravery of the Garda Síochána, and in particular of two gardaí in our area, in the recent armed robbery at Cornelscourt. They provided a fine example of service to the community when, at risk to life and limb, they apprehended armed criminals who had stolen or had attempted to steal from a premises in the area. They were shot at but they brought the criminals to justice. I should like to pay a special tribute to the members concerned on behalf of the people of the area. It has been mentioned more than once that these two gentlemen showed tremendous courage.

Now that the Minister has taken the initiative in introducing this Bill he might like to have a look at the system of promotion within the Garda Síochána so that the more dedicated and able garda will feel there is a future for him in the force. The Minister might have a look at some of the top posts from the point of view of service, dedication and ability.

I would like to speak about the type of co-operation provided by the Garda Síochána to the community associations in my constituency of South County Dublin. Senior Garda officers frequently attend meetings of community associations and residents' associations. We hear criticism that the gardaí do not create a sense of public awareness. They create it in South County Dublin. I welcome it. The Garda Síochána have got to try to restore confidence and pride within the force. That cannot be done without a political will. I believe the Minister has that and has the strength and courage to bring about the changes the people were asking for during the last few years. This Bill is evidence of that. I congratulate the Minister in introducing this Bill, I look forward to many more measures which will rebuild the morale of the Garda Síochána.

Mr. T. J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): As has been said by the Minister and confirmed by Deputy Harte, this is largely an agreed measure between the Government and the Opposition parties in the House. The Bill was put together by the Minister's predecessor and has been accepted by the Minister. It is also acceptable to the Garda Síochána whom it will facilitate. They accept it as something that will enable them to negotiate with the Minister and with the Commissioner.

The Bill amends an Act which was put on the Statute Book in 1924 to set up machinery under which the Garda Síochána could negotiate with the Department of Justice. As the Minister said, the 1924 Act has stood the test of time well. Last week the Minister for Health introduced a Bill to replace an Act of 1927 which was enacted to provide machinery which enabled the medical profession to regulate that profession. The Minister for Health last week spoke in complimentary terms of the 1927 Act and said that it also had stood the test of time well.

I will never cease to be amazed how the first Government in the 1920s, in those difficult times when the infant State was finding its feet, finding its way out of bondage and into freedom in a limited way, setting up its own institutions of State with our people, found time to introduce these enlightened Acts. The two Acts I have spoken of are only two of the dozens of Acts, from the Wildlife Act of the 1930s, the Vocational Education Act of 1926 and the measure which set up the Local Appointments Commission to the two Bills we are dealing with now. It is not at all inappropriate at times like this to put on record the work that was done by the first Government of the State and the Opposition of the time. I am proud to look back at the work which was done then and also glad to see tribute being paid now by Ministers of a different party to the Ministers and Government of those days.

I would like to take this opportunity to compliment the Garda Síochána who have served this State since its foundation in 1922 for the manner in which they discharged their duties under different Governments, the Government which set them up, the Government which took over in 1932 and various Governments that have governed the country since then. The Garda have discharged their duty to the nation in a fearless, courageous and impartial way. As an unarmed police force, they have tackled armed men. It is noteworthy that even today they do not wish to be armed. They wish to remain an unarmed force and are prepared to hunt down crime in any shape or form. The monument in the Phoenix Park, which contains the tablet of honour with the names of the gallant men of the Garda Síochána who gave their lives when as unarmed men they took on armed people, speaks louder and more eloquently than could any words of mine or of anybody else.

At a time like this we should put on record the appreciation that the nation has for the Garda. This Bill has been largely agreed between all concerned. It proposes to change the name of the Garda Representative Body, calling it instead an association, so that the negotiators may get off to a new start. It is proposed to give wider negotiating powers to the new association. Up to now the Garda Representative Body has authorisation merely to bring to the attention of the Commissioner or the Minister their complaints, suggestions or requirements. It was not a properly organised or constituted negotiating body.

The Bill also provides that the association may get assistance from and consult outside bodies and associations, within certain limits, so that their case may be better put forward. I agree with this change and feel that it is a move in the right direction. Although the existing measure of 1924 may not have provided for or permitted the representative body to seek outside advice and assistance, to the credit of the Ministers for Justice and Commissioners concerned it was known that the Garda did, in fact, avail of specialist advice and services. It is proper that this should now be regularised and that we should not have written into the regulations that the representative body should not be permitted to do this or that, while at the same time turning a blind eye to their doing what was reasonable, although not provided for in the regulations.

It is also provided that only paidup members of the association shall have the right to vote in elections for membership of the association to be set up. Up to now, apparently, every member of the Garda Síochána was entitled to vote, whether he subscribed to the funds of the association or not. That was not desirable. If people are to avail of the machinery of a representative body or association they should subscribe to it. That is being provided for here. The pension scheme is being brought into line with other pension schemes, including the Army pension scheme. That is also a move in the right direction and something that can be supported.

At present gardaí are called upon to administer unlimited numbers of Acts of Parliament. They are called upon to enforce these Acts and to deal with sophisticated crimes unheard of in past years. They are also expected to be familiar with the laws of evidence, court procedure and various other related matters. I believe that the time devoted to the instruction of young gardaí is totally inadequate. I do not want to be taken as criticising the Garda or the work they do. They are brought into the depot with leaving certificate standard or its equivalent or perhaps even less and they are given a comparatively short period of training in Templemore. I am not sure whether the training period lasts for three or six months. I will not have time to conclude my remarks now and I will ascertain exactly what the training period is. In my opinion the best teachers and the most receptive students in the world could not teach and learn respectively all that gardaí would require to learn before they would be qualified to do and discharge all the duties demanded of them.

Many people, including judges, district justices, those involved in the media and others, are quick to criticise the members of the Garda, young and old, if they put a foot wrong. I am not dealing with matters which are the subject of public attention at the moment. I propose to deal with that later on. Do these people who make such criticism think of the amount of instruction that the gardaí have received or the amount of time that has been given to them, either in their initial instruction course or in refresher courses later on, to perfect them in their jobs?

Debate adjourned.