asked the Minister for Justice if he will amend the rules for visiting committees to prisons and places of detention to provide for the appointment each month of an advocate who would have the duty to consult in private with the person appearing before the committee so as to ascertain his case and to present it to the best of his ability.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Prison Visiting Committee Rules.
4.
No. I am satisfied that the present arrangements for dealing with the infringement of the rules by persons in custody in prisons and places of detention are operated in such a way as to afford an adequate and fair hearing to the person concerned.
I might mention that it is the duty of a visiting committee to hear and investigate any complaint which any prisoner may desire to make. I do not think that an advocate is needed to enable a committee to discharge that duty effectively.
Would the Minister accept that persons in prison and in places of detention might not in many cases be able to present their complaint in a clear and articulate way and that in those circumstances there are some grounds for legal aid?
The system in operation at present is working reasonably well. I am assured that if anybody has a matter to raise he can raise it and that these people are well able to raise the matters themselves with the visiting committees and that justice is being done to all. I am satisfied from what I am told that the system is working well.
Does the Minister accept that predominantly in the petty crime category the people are of very low intelligence and in those circumstances they find it intimidating to go before a visiting committee? On humanitarian grounds could the Minister make any arrangement where in special circumstances some kind of arrangement like this could be established?
I can see the difficulty, but I am told that the procedures for dealing with disciplinary matters in prisons and places of detention are set out in rules 66-71 in the rules for the government of prisons. If an offence is committed the prison officer reports the offence to the chief officer who decides if it is serious enough to justify a formal report to the governor. When a formal report is made to the governor he in turn decides if it is serious enough to take it any further. If it is, the prisoner is called before the governor and the officer reads out the details, elaborating as necessary; the governor then invites the prisoner to comment on the matter, and having heard both sides the governor decides what is to happen from there on. The relationship between the prisoner and the prison officer is reasonably good and healthy. I do not think any prisoner is afraid to make a complaint or to see to it that he is treated as he should be.
Would I be right in assuming that if a visiting committee wish, they may, under their present regulations institute the type of advocate mentioned here?
I understand that if the governor wishes he may refer a charge for hearing by a visiting committee and the visiting committee can deal with it. Various powers are set out for the visiting committee and I believe that these powers are sufficient to deal with any situation that may arise. In recent times the question of updating these powers and involving these committees more than they were in matters such as this came up and recommendations are with the Department of Justice for consideration. One of the recommendations is that a person appearing on a disciplinary charge should have an advocate because he may not be able to make his own case. This matter is being considered at present.
Apart from the other considerations, will the Minister agree that if the visiting committee wish, in the exercise of their duty, to have one of their members consult with the people who will be appearing before them, and perhaps help them to present their case, as would be the job of an advocate, they are entitled to do so?
The position is that everything possible will be done to help the prisoner who has a genuine case.
I know the Minister is not deliberately evading the answer but he apparently does not see my point. Can they do it at the moment or not?
To be quite honest I would have to refer to the rule and I have not got it mapped out here for me.
We are getting away from the question.
That is a fundamental question. The visiting committee can, and if they want to they should.
There are two words in the vocabulary "yes" and "no" that the Minister will have to learn.
Questions cannot be answered at all times with a "yes" or a "no." There is a grey area as the Deputy well knows.
The Minister for grey areas.
Deputy Kelly can find comments easily but I suppose I could find comments for Deputy Kelly if I wanted to, but I will not.
(Interruptions.)
I am calling the next question.