Deputy Horgan sought and was granted permission to raise on the Adjournment the following matter—the failure of the Department of Education to take an urgently needed decision about the final examinations for students in St. Catherine's College of Domestic Economy, Sion Hill, Dublin. Deputy Horgan has 20 minutes.
Adjournment Debate: Dublin Domestic Economy College.
I am grateful to you, Sir, for permission to raise this on the Adjournment.
I look forward to hearing what the Minister for Education will have to say about this problem. The first point I should like to make is that this is not a debate about principles; it is not a debate about the Fianna Fáil manifesto; it is not a debate on the relationship between the NCA and/or the various university colleges and colleges of domestic economy in Dublin and Sligo. What we are talking about here is a question of procedures, procedures which have a very real and immediate effect on the students in the colleges concerned. I asked permission specifically to raise the question in relation to St. Catherine's College, Sion Hill, with which I am personally most closely acquainted, but I am aware there may be similar problems in relation to St. Angela's College, Lough Gill and the National University of Ireland. I think the staff and students of the institution will be grateful to the Minister if he will indicate in his reply what his attitude is to the situation obtaining there.
The situation in St. Catherine's is that up to comparatively recently St. Catherine's operated a course in home economics which was conducted in accordance with the regulations laid down in Memo E7 issued in January each year by the Department of Education. The students who followed the course established by these regulations normally acquired a diploma at pass or honours level at the completion of their course. Now in the most fluid situation relating to higher education as it has developed over the past few years St. Catherine's was among the colleges which apparently decided to explore the possibility of other forms of validation for the award its students would get at the end of their course. At the same time the authorities of Trinity College, Dublin, for their own good reasons, indicated to this college and, indeed, to a number of other institutions that they were interested in broadening their base and in validating courses that up to then had not led to the award of a university degree.
I must make it clear that I am not proposing here—it would be inappropriate—to go into the merits of who should award a particular qualification and why they should award it, but the facts are that quite some time ago negotiations were undertaken between the authorities of the college and the authorities of Trinity College, Dublin —negotiations at which the Department of Education were also represented—to try to discover a way in which the requirements of the Department of Education and the requirements of the college and the requirements of the university could be satisfactorily reconciled.
In the spring of last year it was generally accepted in St. Catherine's that the courses the college was providing for its students would lead to a degree to be awarded by the authorities of Dublin University. There was considerable pleasure, I gather, in the college at this prospect. There was a problem about those students who were en route, particularly the students who were doing their third year in the academic year 1977-78. It is my understanding of the situation that outside assessors were called in to find out and to tell the college and the university if, in their opinion, the courses that would be followed by these students would reach the appropriate level for the award of a degree and I am informed they said that, if the college made certain changes in its courses, these third-year students in the year 1977-78 would be given a university degree. The inevitable consequence of this was that from approximately last spring— certainly in relation to the current academic year—the courses being offered by the college to the students diverged very substantially from the course which traditionally led to the award of a diploma at pass or honours level. I am unaware of the extent to which divergencies occurred in the other college in Sligo but some of the more obvious divergencies were, for example, in the area of continuous assessment. The university authorities were keen on continuous assessment, so assessment was introduced into the course. Lectures were arranged in Trinity College, Dublin, for the 30-odd students concerned. There were also some important differences in the sociological course followed by the students after the agreement with the university compared with the course followed before that agreement. The changes meant that practical work was dropped in some areas and increased in other areas. In general it is, I think, true to say that the course was changed to take account of the recommendations made by the outside assessors called in to find out if third-year students could do a degree examination this summer. There are, as I said, approximately 30 students involved this year but there are 100 students in the college and, even though the immediate problem affects only the final year students, of course all the other students are affected as well because they too have been following a course which has now been altered to take account of the fact that the university is now apparently involved.
The second-year and first-year students are also affected. But when I say the third-year students are those immediately involved that is a considerable understatement because the examination in this college traditionally has been held at the beginning of May —that is, the examination for the diploma. The Trinity College authorities have proposed examinations at the beginning of June. Even if you take the further date it is still uncomfortably close. The students concerned are literally on the last lap of their educational career and they are now faced with the appalling situation that they are preparing for an examination that they do not know they will be allowed to take.
I understand there was to be a tripartite meeting organised at which the college authorities, the university authorities and the Department would be represented in order to try to sort out the situation. This meeting was unfortunately cancelled at very short notice and the students who were looking to this meeting to provide a resolution of their difficulties are now faced with a further period of uncertainty which must naturally very seriously affect their ability to concentrate on and work for their examination which is now literally only weeks away.
The Department's position in relation to the problem the students are facing has been indicated to the college in at least two documents. One dated 16 February 1978 is headed: Outline of the Department's position in regard to the Home Economics Course. Paragraph 2 reads:
In the case of the students of St. Catherine's College there is the expectation that a B.Ed. degree of the University of Dublin would be available in 1978 at ordinary level and in later years for people who have done three years and at honours level for people who have done four years. The Department would hope that the expectation in relation to degrees at ordinary level would be fulfilled. It would seem desirable, however, that students should not be subjected to more than one examination and that it should be possible for the university authorities to be associated with the diploma examination in such a way as to facilitate the award of degrees.
About three weeks ago the co-ordinating committee, on which the Department, the college and the university are all represented, circulated a further document under the same heading but with slightly different wording. The wording of document No. 2—if I may use the phrase popularised by Mr. de Valera—was as follows:
. . . that the Department would hope that the expectation in relation to degrees at ordinary level would be fulfilled.
That is the same wording as in the original document. The second sentence is changed. It reads:
It would seem desirable, however, that students should not be subjected to more than one examination and that it should be possible for the authorities of the college, the university and the Department to co-operate in relation to one examination in such a way as to facilitate the award of a diploma and a degree.
Perhaps I might parse and analyse the difference between the two documents. The second document seems to be a substantial improvement on the first because in the first document it appears that the university authorities were being asked to accommodate themselves to whatever the Department decided to impose on the college concerned, whereas in the second document there seems to be an acceptance of the fact that there should and could be a reasonable tripartite agreement between the parties concerned that would result, without any unfairness to the students concerned, in the award of both a degree and a diploma.
The critical question—and it is the question that the meeting today was supposed to answer—was whether it is possible for two separate examinations to be held, one for the college of St. Angela's and the other for St. Catherine's College at Sion Hill. In passing I would point out that last year there were separate papers for education in the two colleges so that a precedent for two separate examinations has been established.
The need for two separate examinations is clearly obvious. There has been a divergence of approximately 30 per cent in the courses between the two colleges. As far as I am aware, the authorities of St. Catherine's College have not sent in, as they used to do when the Department administered a diploma only, their ideas for questions to the Department of Education. If there are to be two separate examinations, one for St. Angela's College and one for St. Catherine's College, the Department, the authorities of St. Catherine's and the university authorities must get together as a matter of urgency to ensure that the students will be able to sit an examination that is related to the course they have studied.
I find it impossible to believe that the Department would actually insist that the students sit an examination for a course that had been followed in a different college and which they had not followed themselves. I am also informed that the authorities of TCD have said that if the Department insist on the students in St. Catherine's doing this they will withdraw completely from the validation procedures. One could hardly blame them. The critical question behind all this is in relation to the employment of the 30 students concerned——
Did Dublin University confirm in writing to the Deputy that they were withdrawing their validation procedures?
If the Minister has other information the students and I would be delighted to hear it, but I understand that if this problem is not resolved satisfactorily and if the students in St. Catherine's College are expected to do the same examination as the students in St. Angela's, naturally they would not be prepared to award their degree for an examination based on that course.
What administrative body in Dublin University said that?
The Deputy should not be interrupted.
The Minister will have ten minutes to reply.
I am prepared in due course to allow the Minister——
What administrative body said that?
Deputy Horgan should be allowed to continue his speech.
I am looking for information.
I know, but the time allotted to Deputy Horgan is almost up and the Minister will have ten minutes to reply.
If I am wrong I will be delighted to publicly acknowledge that.
I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy but I should like to know what administrative body said that.
I have made my position clear. Students are now heading into the last three or four weeks of their course. Their peace of mind— if anybody facing an examination has anything remotely resembling peace of mind—has been completely undermined by the failure of the Department of Education to indicate what kind of examination they will be given and what kind of qualification they will be awarded at the end. The most important thing is that this examination must have the sanction of the Department of Education because if it does not have that sanction one has a very clear idea of what the representatives of the Department of Education on the Teachers' Registration Council will say when this year's graduates from St. Catherine's College come to be registered as secondary teachers because, of course, without this registration they will not be entitled to any incremental salary paid by the Department of Education.
The failure to hold the meeting today was literally the last straw for the students. Matters have been postponed and they have been considerably distressed about the situation. To my mind it is quite extraordinary that a situation that arose more than a year ago and which they thought had been resolved a year ago is now facing them still unresolved and is something which threatens not only their success in the examinations but their possibilities for earning a livelihood afterwards. Even if the Minister tells us now what will happen, it may be too late for some students.
In the few brief months he has been in this House I have learned to assess the mountains Deputy Horgan says are in labour and inevitably a ridiculous little mouse is born.
The Deputy spoke of a problem in the Department of Education. I want to tell the Deputy and the House that there is no problem in the Department of Education. On 16 February of this year the Department issued a document to Dublin University, to St. Catherine's College and to the committee in which it was stated that the students who had entered the college up to now had come in under Memo V/57, not Memo seven, as Deputy Horgan stated.
I said 57.
The Deputy said seven. I thought that was what he said and I checked with the Secretary of the Department who confirmed what I thought. In any event that is a minor point. Students who came in under that memo had certain expectations and among those expectations was that at the end of a three-year course they would sit for a diploma. On this diploma the Department of Education awarded pass and honours credits. Deputy Horgan referred to that in introducing this debate. I should like to emphasise this important point: getting an honours in this diploma meant for the student an extra £500, approximately, per annum when working. This diploma at honours level is recognised by the registration council as such. It is recognised in the Department as attracting a very substantial extra increment.
The Department of Education have a legal and moral obligation to the students to see to it that the possibility of earning full salary on the pass diploma and a salary plus honours increment on the honours diploma should be available to them. Under the terms of Memo V/57, the memo under which they were taken into the college—St. Catherine's, Sion Hill—they are entitled to that expectation. The university then enters the scene and we are glad of that but there is a problem. The university will award a pass degree after three years. There is no possibility of getting honours with that degree so that Miss X, for example, who does the degree simpliciter without any reference to the diploma will not have the possibility of distinguishing herself and on going to work attracting a £500 increment for honours qualification. Therefore, the Department feel they have a legal obligation, an obligation which could be pursued in the courts by a student, and properly so, to provide an examination for the student which will give her the possibility of earning an honours increment.
There is no problem as far as the Department of Education are concerned. As far as the University of Dublin are concerned they can make their own arrangements with regard to the conferring of the degree. The Department of Education do not want to deprive the student of the possibility of earning almost £10 per week extra if she achieves an honours standard in her diploma. The Deputy mentioned that his interest was in the students and I believe that to be true. It is my interest also and it has been an abiding interest with me all my life. I should like to reassure the students that, despite the scaremongering, not very emotional, of Deputy Horgan, the possibility of their gaining an honours diploma recognised by the registration council and attracting a substantial extra salary is a commitment of ours.
Will the examination be based on the course?
I should like to take up a point Deputy Horgan made about continuous assessment. Somehow or other in his simplistic way he assumes that continuous assessment if it has taken place will inhibit the student who is taking our diploma. If it is a valid educational pursuit I contend that it should enhance the student's possibility of gaining a diploma or even an honours diploma. There is no problem at all with regard to the degree. As the House is aware the universities are autonomous in so far as the setting of the degrees and the naming of standards are concerned. The University of Dublin have decided that in so far as getting an honours degree in home economics is concerned they will demand a further year. Obviously, there is an area here where further discussions will have to take place but we cannot have the laughable situation where we could be pursued in the courts because, just to suit the university, we did not make available to a student the possibility of earning a substantial extra salary.
We recruited people under certain conditions and we are legally and morally bound, and bound by the interest which I share with Deputy Horgan in the welfare of students, to provide an examination for the students which will give them the opportunity of getting an honours degree. I am a little worried about what the Deputy said, that what the Department have done has put an extra worry on the students. I want to assure students about the sole concern of the Department. I understand that the Leader of the Labour Party has a daughter doing her degree this year and I would like him to tell her, a very intelligent contributor to this whole discussion——
She is in the public gallery listening to the Minister.
——not to be worried by the imaginary problems that Deputy Horgan, the spokesman on Education in the Labour Party, is trying to foist upon her.
Will the Minister tell the House if the examination will be based on the course the students are now following?
I will answer that later. Deputy Horgan said that the University of Dublin intended to withdraw from the scene altogether. That was news to me and I ask the Deputy to name the administrative council in the University of Dublin that informed him because I do not have such information. If he does not have from an authoritative source in the University of Dublin a statement to that effect then he is totally irresponsible and should not be the spokesman for an important political party here
Will the examination be based on the course?
With regard to the question put by the Leader of the Labour Party I should like to state that our diploma examination will be constructed along the lines which were indicated to the students and if continuous assessment has been practised as a sound educational assessment, it will contribute to the students rather than in any way inhibit them. The Department's legal and moral obligation and the Department's concern for the student is to make sure that there will be available to them an examination which will facilitate them in earning, if they reach the grades, £500 per year extra when they start working. We hope to provide them with the jobs as well.
Will the examination be based on the course? The Minister should give an answer to that question.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 April 1978.