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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 1978

Vol. 307 No. 7

Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Armed Robberies .

4.

andMr. Harte asked the Minister for Justice the details of the security precautions in force in relation to the transport of the large amount of money taken in the armed robbery near Newcastle West, County Limerick on 7 June 1978; if he considers them to have been adequate in view of what happened; and the additional measures that he proposes in order to check the continuing wave of armed robbery in the country.

5.

asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware of a proposal to transfer money from banks in certain suitable areas in the country to Dublin Airport by light plane, made about four years ago; if he has taken note of a recent robbery reported in the public press; if he now considers that such huge amounts of money should be transferred from places far from Dublin by the former method; and the action the Government are proposing in this matter.

6.

asked the Minister for Justice if the type of security provided to the bank van involved in the recent Limerick raid is in accordance with departmental requirements.

: With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 4, 5 and 6 together.

The question whether security arrangements in a given case are adequate depends on the criteria to be applied. If the test is that the arrangements should prevent a robbery, then clearly in the case referred to the arrangements did not meet that test.

The decision as to the protection arrangements to be applied in a given case is for the Garda Síochána and this has been the position under successive Ministers for Justice and that is how it should be.

In recent years, mainly because of inflation, cash amounts in transit have increased substantially. Inflation is not, however, the only factor and the development of industry, commerce and related activities in our society has had the result of very frequent movements of cash in amounts that are very large. It is totally impossible to provide continuous protection even of all large consignments of money that are being moved about from place to place.

It may be alleged that what is involved is the protection of very substantial sums only. I have some difficulty in dealing with the whole question of the designation of "substantial sums", and, for reasons which the House will appreciate, a discussion of the protection measures that are operated in the case of particular cash consignments in transit could only benefit those who plan these robberies.

When I assumed office I found that the policy being pursued then provided for very little protection on cash movements. I am stating this as a fact and not as a criticism. The policy I found in operation was a deliberate policy which could be defended but I thought that the level of protection should be increased. The level of the protection was in fact increased but, whatever level of protection is applied, there can be no guarantee against robberies occurring. In the case of the robbery referred to in the questions the amount of money was substantial. I am not saying that sums as large as this are commonplace but I must stress that very large sums indeed are regularly in transit throughout the country—much more so than is generally recognised. To cover all of them with Garda protection would impose such a demand on manpower and resources that it would not be possible to meet it. This is the reality that we must face. My information is that we in this country are by no means unique in this. On the contrary, I understand that this situation is commonplace in many countries.

Last week's robbery raises very important questions. If we are now moving into a situation where semi-military-type operations are planned and carried out against property then we, as a community, must consider what measures must be taken to combat this type of threat even if this means measures that may sound very harsh. The necessity not only to impose very long sentences and to ensure that those very long sentences are fully served by persons convicted of such offences is one consideration that has to be taken into account.

The current strategy of providing Garda escorts for cash in transit is being reassessed by the Garda authorities and amongst the matters to be considered by them will be the effectiveness of the existing escort arrangements.

The House will appreciate that the diversion of police resources to protection arrangements of this nature is exceptionally costly in terms of manpower and has the result of diverting those resources from other areas of police needs. Measures that might suggest themselves at first sight as a solution to this particular problem are not the measures that commend themselves to experienced police officers with the expertise and professional competence to assess what has to be done.

Some public references have been made to the possible use of Army escorts. Once again the problem lies in the very large number of transfers of very large sums and, even if Army manpower were to be employed, I think a problem could arise about the level of what I might call militarism that would then be on daily display on our streets and roads.

There is no easy solution because it is an extremely complex problem and I am satisfied that in the current review being carried out by the Garda authorities they will take into account all relevant considerations with a view to improving the situation. The gardaí will be discussing with the banks the further action that might be taken on their side to reduce the volume of bank cash in transit at the present time.

I am not aware that any proposal to transfer money by light plane was made as suggested in Question No. 5. It is not a proposal that commends itself to the gardaí as offering any real assistance. It may be that a limited use of helicopters would be beneficial and this is being considered.

: In regard to the Minister's statement that he had arranged for an increase in the level of protection for cash in transit, does he seriously suggest that having what appears to have been one Garda escort car in attendance on a van carrying £500,000 would fit in with that statement?

: What I said in my reply stands also for the supplementary question raised by Deputy O'Keeffe.

: Would the Minister indicate from what level it was increased? Does he suggest that the provision of one escort car was an increase in the level of protection available? Is he saying that there was no escort available in the past for the transport of substantial sums?

: That is right.

: I find it hard to accept this. There is another matter which seems to be causing serious public concern. Would the Minister tell the House the position in regard to radio equipment on both the escort car and security van involved in the transport of this large sum?

: I understand that the escort car had a radio as had the van carrying the money and were in contact with each other.

: Apart from being in contact with each other, was there any contact with another central source?

: There was full coverage by radio.

: Would it be reasonable to presume that, in view of the substantial profits being made by the banking groups, an approach would be to ask the banks to spend much more money providing adequate security measures for the handling of their own cash?

: I would like to assure the Deputy that the banks will have to play their part in ensuring that moneys can be transferred more safely throughout the country.

: What part is that at present?

: I am not prepared to say for obvious reasons.

: Would the Minister accept that transferring money at a time of national crisis by an unarmed police escort is ridiculous when he thinks it necessary, and I support the need for it, that there be an armed guard with a police escort in tow? Does he not consider that it undermines confidence in him that he would allow his Department, through the gardaí, to escort sizeable sums of money unarmed? Is he aware of a robbery a few minutes ago in this city of £30,000 which has been stolen from the Gas Company? Will he now accept that there is a crisis?

: My original answer more than adequately covers anything that has been raised by Deputy Harte as far as security on shipments of money is concerned. His comparison of security for any member of the Government or members of the last Government does not warrant any comment by me at this stage.

: The point I wanted to make and I am not making this lightly, is that this could have been a trap to kidnap the Minister. Where was he when this was taking place? It could have been any member of this Cabinet, of the former Cabinet or any Member of the House. This is a grave situation and he does not seem to appreciate it. Would he confirm that this escort was unarmed?

: Deputy M. P. Murphy wishes to ask a question and the Minister might answer both together.

: Why cannot the Minister answer my question?

: Regardless of inflation £400,000 is a substantial sum and the Minister admitted that the escort provided for the conveyance of this money did not measure up to departmental requirements. What was the reason for this? Were the transmitters, particularly those in the Garda car, effective or defective, and if they were effective what was the reason for the inability of the Garda to communicate with outside sources, a failure which may have helped the raiders to get away? Having regard to the substantial amounts of money taken from banks and other public premises in recent years and taking into consideration also some of the statements made by the Minister while he was in Opposition, would he not agree that it was inexcusable that such an incident should occur at his doorstep?

: This is a rather long supplementary.

: Deputy Murphy must have misheard my reply because if he had heard the reply or had paid attention to it he would not have asked those supplementaries, which are wrongly based. Regarding Deputy Harte's question I would assure the Deputy that it is a long-established practice here not to give details of security measures on specific occasions or in specific situations. I am not prepared to depart from that practice.

: I want to know merely whether the escort was armed on this occasion?

: Both the House and the public generally want to know whether the gardaí are now stool pigeons and cockshots for armed men.

: I am satisfied that there is good and sufficient reason for the long-established practice of not disclosing details of escorts.

: The fact is that the escort were unarmed but that the Minister is afraid to admit that.

: It is not my intention to depart from the established practice of not giving details of escorts.

: Because the escort were unarmed, they were ineffective.

: Would the Minister deny that his car was one of those diverted by the raiders on the occasion in question?

: I assure my fellow county man that my car had nothing whatever to do either with this robbery or with any other robbery.

: There is an element of doubt.

(Interruptions.)

: Order. I will allow a final supplementary on this matter.

: Is the Minister aware of the great concern in Limerick city and county not only in relation to the incident at Barnagh but in relation to a series of robberies? The other two robberies in the series involved a raid on the bank at Doon and also one at Adare. Also, a couple of days after the Barnagh incident there was a daylight raid at the William Street post office. There is a great concern that the people responsible for these crimes have not been apprehended. Is the Minister proposing to take any measures in regard to this apparent series of crimes?

: Naturally, I am conscious of the concern that exists in respect of robberies, not only those robberies carried out within the past week or within the past year but in respect of all robberies that take place. Of course, responsible people are deeply concerned on this account.

: We accept that, but has the Minister proposals for dealing with the situation?

: Next question, please.

: May I ask the Minister——

: The last supplementary was to be the final one on this question. The Chair has been generous in allowing supplementaries.

: Not as generous as the Minister.

: Would the Minister not agree that the substance of his lengthy reply is that money in transit is very exposed and, consequently, is his reply not tantamount to a bank robbers' charter?

: Before making statements that are highly irresponsible the Deputy should at least have regard to what was in the reply.

: We must move on to the next question.

: The Minister has admitted that money in transit is very exposed.

: Can the Minister assure us that in future when considerable amounts of money are being transported they will be accompanied by an armed escort that would be capable of dealing with any emergency that might arise?

: The Minister has answered these questions.

: He has not told us whether the transmitters were in working order.

: The Minister was about to answer my question.

: That would be repetition. I have called the next question.

: Is not the Minister's reference to money in transit being very exposed a charter for raiders?

: If the Deputy thinks I said anything like that, he is allowing his imagination to get the better of him. However, I cannot be responsible for what he thinks.

: What the Minister said was tantamount to a bank robbers' charter.

: We must not enter into the realm of argument.

7.

asked the Minister for Justice the number of armed robberies of cash in the State for each of the years 1975, 1976, 1977 and 1978 to date; and the total amount of money involved in each year, including 1978 to date.

: The statistics do not distinguish between cash and other property taken in armed robberies.

The following are the numbers of armed robberies and the value of all the property, including cash, taken since 1975:

1975

153

£759,483.00

1976

185

£627,339.78

1977

298

£919,521.96

1978

99

£959,699.84

(up to and including 9 June)

I must emphasise that the 1978 figures are provisional, as it often takes some considerable time to ascertain precisely how much was taken in a robbery.

: The robbers are becoming more efficient.

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