Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 1978

Vol. 307 No. 7

Private Members' Business . - Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1978: Second Stage (Resumed) .

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Begley

: When speaking last evening I was urging the Minister as strongly as possible to give us a clear indication as to whether the legislation he has promised would be enacted and implemented before we adjourned for the summer recess. As usual the Minister was non-committal and said the matter was one for the Houses of the Oireachtas. However, I am pleased to learn that a Bill was introduced in the Seanad today.

It is a pity that the Minister did not publish that Bill yesterday or this morning. It is a pity that it was not available for our spokesman, Deputy Deasy, when he introduced our Bill. We feel strongly about this issue. The Minister should give us an assurance that this legislation will be passed before the summer recess. He is a very astute man and he has seen the three Deputies who have contributed from this side, Deputies Deasy, O'Keeffe and myself—Waterford, Cork and Kerry. It is a well known fact, as Deputy Deasy pointed out, that our corvettes are monitored by the Spanish so that when a corvette makes a capture the other Spanish trawlers zoom in and plunder our fishing grounds. Our stocks are being depleted dramatically.

I am speaking in the dark because the Minister's Bill is ready to float but we have not had an opportunity of studying it. The problem that is bothering me, and a lot of other well-intentioned Members, is the question of penalties for Irish fishermen under the Bill. I should like to know if the Minister has had consultations with the fishermen's organisations when he was drafting this Bill. There is no comparison between the type of people who own trawlers in Spain and those who own trawlers here. It is well known that a fisherman caught with a salmon on his deck is liable to a bigger penalty than the skipper of a Spanish trawler. In his sense of justice the Minister should make a special case with regard to Irish fishermen. I make that statement unaware if the Minister has met representatives of the fishermen. I hope the Minister will accept that suggestion in the spirit intended.

It is a remarkable coincidence that the Minister's legislation surfaced this week in view of the fact that we had a vice-President of the European Commission, Mr. Gundelach, here recently. Did the Minister have any consultations with Mr. Gundelach about this legislation? This is a delicate area because the legislation will hurt Mr. Gundelach's friends, the people who have taken away our 50 miles. Has the Minister compromised his position so much with Europeans that he has left the Irish fishermen groping? It was ridiculous to read in a press report that £80,000 would be spent on a survey on fisheries. That amount of money would not build a small pier. That is the reality of the situation. Three acres of land in Dublin would cost £80,000. Mr. Gundelach did not make the long journey to Ireland to announce that he was giving us £40,000—I am sure we will have to put up £40,000 for this survey. Mr. Gundelach was on another mission and I should like to know what one? Was it this legislation? If that is the case was the legislation watered down to suit the Europeans? If the Minister's legislation is to be implemented there are other areas that will have to be immensely improved. I want to specify one area, Valentia railway station.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: I do not know how the Deputy can introduce Valentia railway station into this debate.

Mr. Begley

: My apologies, I wanted to refer to Valentia radio station. The Minister is aware that Valentia radio station must monitor all the trawlers that come into the 200-mile zone. I do not know whether the Minister visited this station but if he has not and he takes a trip to Valentia in the near future—from what is happening in Kerry at present I have no doubt that he will keep far away from the county for a while—he will see the terrible conditions and bad equipment these hard pressed civil servants must operate. It was never visualised that the radio station would have to monitor trawlers coming into the 200 mile zone. If the Dutch are only to enter with a certain number of boats and the Spaniards can only catch hake off the Blasket Islands, there must be careful monitoring. I urge the Minister to communicate with the Minister for Tourism and Transport with a view to modernising that station and employing extra staff. I would make that appeal if Valentia was in any other part of the country. I hope the Minister accepts that appeal in the spirit intended.

In the proposed legislation will the Minister include anything about fishery offences in relation to the drift-net controversy? I have no doubt that the Minister is aware of the chaos in Kerry today. It is ridiculous that some boards of conservators can issue 200 or 300 licences and in all of Kerry only four drift-net licences. It is unfortunate that scenes are taking place down there because our fishermen had a tremendous respect for the Navy. The Minister should do everything in his power to defuse what could become an explosive situation. I would go further and say to the Minister that he may not be aware that his Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, in an interview on Radio na Gaeltachta four days before the election, gave an assurance to the Kerry fishermen that he would rectify the disgraceful situation. That interview is on tape and I heard it a week ago on Radio na Gaeltachta. I would ask the Minister to ask his Taoiseach if he gave such an undertaking. If he gave such a solemn undertaking to those people he should be big enough to implement it.

Last night the Minister mentioned fines of £500, which is a ridiculous sum and should be increased. It is well known in fishery circles that we have only three fishery protection vessels at sea at a time. If one of the vessels is after the salmon men and another has made a capture, that leaves one to patrol the coast. The Spaniards are only laughing at us at present because they know the situation better than ourselves. Some time ago the Minister said he had contact with Spanish officials. I appeal to him to make overtures to the Spaniards. Everybody knows what they are doing. As Deputy Deasy pointed out a short time ago, they only want to establish a quota. When they become full members of the EEC they will be entitled to that quota.

The Minister has the legislation and he should have issued it two days earlier. He should give the House an assurance that the legislation will be implemented before the recess. If we go into recess without implementing the legislation we are giving the Spaniards an open sea for six months. This is an emotive issue. There is no point in being flippant with the fishermen. They are as good a body of men as any other Irish people. They feel threatened by the further restrictions that are contemplated, according to today's Irish Independent. If the fishermen in Kerry cannot catch herring they will have to catch some other kind of fish.

Mr. B. Desmond

: There is general acceptance of the need for amending legislation. The Fine Gael Party have put forward a comprehensive Bill and I feel there is general acceptance of the merits of the Bill. The Labour Party support the measure introduced by Deputy Deasy.

Last night the Minister outlined his proposed amending legislation. Therefore, the only issue before the House is whether we can enact that legislation before the recess. It is not beyond the capacity of both Houses to enact the ministerial Bill before the recess. I suggest, and I have no doubt that Deputy Creed will agree with me, that we reach an accommodation with Deputies P. Lalor and Geoghegan-Quinn whereby the Seanad could discuss the Bill and take all Stages between now and the end of next week. If the Seanad were to have all Stages taken by then we could give an assurance to discharge all Stages here before the recess. I assure the Minister that Deputy Creed and I will be willing to make time available for this purpose. We may take issue with the Minister on the £500 limit.

Mr. Lenihan

: It is £100,000 on indictment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: The Deputies are putting the Chair in an awkward position. There is nothing before the House at present except Deputy Deasy's Bill.

Mr. B. Desmond

: When the Bill comes before the House we will not be found unco-operative. One or two amendments may be necessary at that stage. I appreciate the position in which the Leas-Cheann Comhairle finds himself, but it should be possible to enact the new legislation before the end of the month. I compliment Deputy Deasy. He deserves credit for bringing forward the issue in the form of this Bill. The Minister has responded and that response can be enshrined in a statute of this House in a very short time. I have no doubt but that the other House of the Oireachtas will co-operate as effectively as possible. I have already had a discussion with my fellow Whip there who is willing to co-operate in every way.

All in all, the value of Private Members' time, Private Members' Bills of this nature, and of a speedy response from the Government on this occasion will ensure——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: The Chair is very much in the dark. Does somebody want to enlighten the Chair at this stage?

Mr. B. Desmond

: The Chair has my absolute sympathy on procedure.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: The Minister, just on a point of information because he is not entitled to speak again in Private Members' time, but if he wants to come in on a point of information.

Minister for Fisheries (Mr. Lenihan)

: Certainly on the point raised by the Chair, certain progress has been made in regard to the processing of the Government measure in that it was introduced in the Seanad at 2.30 p.m. this afternoon, First Stage. It is now in course of printing and will be in Deputies' and Senators' hands in the morning. The Seanad is agreeable to taking the Second Stage also in the morning.

I agree with what Deputy B. Desmond has suggested here, while not pre-empting what the Seanad will do but on the presumption that, having given it consideration, whether finally tomorrow or on some subsequent day, we get it into the Dáil, either next week or, if time is available even during the following week. Having the Bill enacted before the recess so that we do not have a void situation is all important. This, I think, is what Deputies O'Keeffe and Deasy last evening were anxious to avoid—a situation in which we had really no legislation to cope with the problem during the busiest sea fisheries period of the year from now until October. We have made certain progress along these lines. Perhaps at this stage that might be met by withdrawing the Bill. Deputy Deasy is the person in whose hands this lies.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: It is completely in the hands of Deputy Deasy if he wishes.

Mr. Deasy

: That is our general attitude—I will speak about that when replying—but I think that Deputy White should be given a chance to speak.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: At this stage the Deputy wishes this debate to go ahead? Is that the position?

Mr. Deasy

: Yes. Deputy White is prepared to speak on it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: Deputy B. Desmond was in possession.

Mr. B. Desmond

: On that basis I will conclude my comments and pass back to the Chair. I want to assure Deputy Deasy that our party, having examined the Bill, see very considerable merit in it. In so far as we may have some reservations about the outline of impending legislation by the Minister, naturally we are precluded from commenting on that at this stage. Therefore in that context, that is our contribution to the debate, and I have no doubt that Deputy Deasy, when replying——

Mr. Deasy

: What I am saying is that the Deputy will find us very accommodating.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: There is not much sense in prolonging a debate here if we have reached a decision in other directions.

Mr. Deasy

: Deputy White is entitled to speak.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: Yes, if Deputy Deasy's measure is going ahead. There is nothing else before the House. Deputy Deasy's Bill is the only Bill before the House. I want to make that perfectly clear. Deputy White on Deputy Deasy's Bill before the House.

Mr. White

: I should like to congratulate our spokesman on fisheries, Deputy Deasy, for introducing this Bill.

As far as we on this side of the House are concerned the Minister will find us very co-operative. We are willing to withdraw our Bill as long as we get a guarantee from the Minister that his Bill will be circulated tomorrow and will become law before the recess. Of course we must emphasise that all Stages must be taken and that the Bill must become law. Even if we have to sit late the week after next to do so, it will be in the interests of our fishermen.

But for our Bill, we would not at present have a Bill from the Minister for Fisheries. Certainly he was caught on the hop in the last couple of days, as shown by the rushed job he is doing on the introduction of a Bill on his side of the House. In the last couple of months we have been very concerned about the problems our fishermen have been facing. All sides of the House are agreed that it has been absolutely ridiculous that foreign vessels have been fined only £100 by our District Courts.

When discussing the Bill introduced by the Minister we will have to study very thoroughly every single section to make sure it is in the interests of our fishermen. It is worth mentioning that from January to May of this year 14 arrests were made. In the month of May alone seven arrests were made by our fisheries protection vessels. I read the speech made last evening by the Minister. I am delighted to see that he proposes to bring in minimum fines of up to £100,000. We cannot give a complete verdict on his Bill until we have examined every section of it. Certainly there are very serious matters we must consider. For example, we must consider the possibility of a foreign vessel coming before our courts and being found guilty, when their gear must be confiscated. We must ensure that all of the catch found on board the vessel—whether it is proved that the catch was caught inside our territorial waters—is confiscated. We agree with what the Minister said yesterday, that the time for dillydallying as far as our fishermen are concerned is over. We must introduce strong legislation to ensure that anybody caught pilfering our fish will pay for the time and trouble caused our fisheries protection vessels.

It is worth noting that in the Minister's speech yesterday he spoke about new fishing limits off the Clare coast. He said that one of our fisheries protection vessels would be there at all times to keep a check on the 15 boats that will be there every week. When these fishing boats come into this area they should be made check with the fisheries protection vessel there and our fisheries protection personnel should board the foreign trawler to ascertain the type of gear it is using, what size mesh, the type of fish they catch and ensure that they do not catch the small fish as we know so many of them have been doing. When that foreign trawler is leaving again it should be re-checked on all of those aspects.

Deputy Begley was quite correct in saying that at present we have three, perhaps four, fishery protection vessels circling our coasts at present. If there is one looking after salmon, one protecting the coasts of North Clare and Galway, it means that the maximum number of boats we have available to patrol our fishery limits is certainly not more than two because of neglect of our Naval Service down the years. It is common knowledge that probably we have not sufficient men to man all our naval vessels at present. I was delighted some months ago when the Minister for Defence told the House that our naval establishment would be increased. It is high time this was done. At present we have not enough men or boats and we must make this a top priority.

The Minister mentioned the spotter planes. We have only one such plane, the King Air. We certainly need a second one very urgently. That plane has radar, but it has not photographic equipment such as other fishery protection spotter planes have in other areas. We must install photographic equipment in this plane as soon as possible and purchase a second plane. It is stated in paragraph 21 of the 1978-79 EEC working document 39/78 that the Community envisages the financing of one aircraft by one member state. The Minister goes to the EEC next week and I hope he will come back with the news that this second spotter plane will be purchased as soon as possible. These planes are extremely expensive. It is reckoned that about 40 per cent of the cost is for the aircraft, 40 per cent for radar and surveillance equipment and 20 per cent for radio, navigational and camera units. Like some of the other speakers on this side of the House. I hope that legislation will be enacted whereby, with proper aerial proof, these fishing boats coming inside our waters will be charged in the same way as if they had been apprehended by our boats. It is high time this was done. It is done in other countries and the Minister should insert a section providing for this.

It is reckoned that it costs something in the region of £5 million to build each naval vessel. We are proud of the Deirdre and the Emer which are as good as anything in European waters at present. I am disturbed by the talk in EEC documents about chartering five fishery protection vessels. Does this mean that the EEC will pay for the charter, the equipment and the personnel? We have two very good boats and there is another being built at Cork, but we are faced with the problem that it is estimated we can build only one boat every year. The quicker we can get boats of our own with naval personnel, the better off we will be.

There is another section which I hope the Minister will include when he introduces his Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: We are discussing Deputy Deasy's Bill. It is the only thing before the House. We are spending all the time discussing the Minister's Bill which, I understand, will come up for discussion next week. Only Deputy Deasy's Bill is before the House at the moment.

Mr. White

: I accept that. I am trying to keep to the Bill before me. It is only fair to speak about a Bill which is so important to the country. I am trying to cover a wide range and to analyse Deputy Deasy's Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: The only reason the Chair intervened is that the Deputy was suggesting to the Minister sections that he should have in his Bill. The Minister's Bill is not before the House.

Mr. White

: I accept that. As far as the Fine Gael Bill is concerned, I accept as Deputy Deasy accepted, that there are not things in the Bill which should be in it. We accept that this Bill is not the best Bill in the world, but we brought it in because we could not leave the Irish fishing grounds at the mercy of foreigners. If a naval vessel brings in a Spanish trawler to one of our ports that naval vessel can be tied up for a considerable length of time, and this Bill should have covered that. The naval vessel should be free straight away to go back to its work of patrolling our waters.

The European Parliament on 10 May decided on the progressive establishment of a body to patrol the fishing zones on behalf of the Community. That means that the Community are seeking to patrol our fishing waters. It is bad enough not to have sovereign rights over the whole of this country but it would be complete madness if we had not sovereign rights over the fishing areas around our coast.

I am glad that Deputy Deasy introduced this Bill. It has certainly made the Minister wake up and bring in new legislation. This is what we want.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: Does the Chair understand that Deputy Deasy is withdrawing the motion and the Bill?

Mr. Flynn

: If Deputy Deasy is not withdrawing, I am offering.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: Is Deputy Deasy now withdrawing the motion and the Bill? If not, I will have to call Deputy Flynn.

Mr. Deasy

: I am withdrawing the motion and the Bill. I accept the Minister's intervention as a reasonable answer to the case we have made. It seems to be an assurance that the Government are going to enact legislation which will plug the existing loophole in the law. Can we take it that this will be done before the recess?

Mr. Lenihan

: This will be done before the recess.

Mr. Deasy

: The Opposition will be most accommodating in that respect. We will be only too glad to help. We accept that it is a most complex piece of legislation. The Minister said that it was a much more comprehensive Bill than this one. There will be a lot of legal argument but we will be easy to deal with as long as we know that we will not have to wait until next November. This is what would have happened and this is why we brought forward this Bill. The law is being flouted left, right and centre and we as a responsible party in Opposition could not allow this to continue. The Minister has seen our point and we welcome the initiative he took today in having the First Stage in the Seanad. We are told that the Second Stage will be taken in the Seanad tomorrow and Committee and further Stages will be taken at a special sitting of the Seanad next Tuesday. We are gratified to hear that. The Minister will find at all stages in the Seanad and the Dáil that the Fine Gael and the Labour Party, from what Deputy Desmond said, will make his task quite easy.

We have been disturbed as the incidence of poaching increased in recent months and we were forced into this measure which we put down in the form of a Bill. I refer in particular due to vast overfishing and the increase in poaching off the west coast in and off the south coast. We make no excuse for introducing the Bill. I think the Minister admitted last night that if he were in Opposition it is the very thing he would have done himself. We were worried that the measure might not come in before the recess and that the Spaniards in partifishing, or virtually free fishing, for cular and the Dutch would have free the next six months. A fine of £100 was no deterrent. We could not allow that situation to continue.

I do not know specifically what is in the Minister's Bill. He has given us an outline of it but I hope he makes provision for the acceptance by the courts of aerial evidence. This is an extremely important aspect of the whole thing. Fines are one thing but to obtain evidence by aerial observation is vitally important. I hope the Bill will cover that aspect of the matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: We should discuss the Bill at this stage.

Mr. Deasy

: On the basis of the Minister's assurance given here tonight I am prepared to withdraw the Bill. That should satisfy everybody.

Motion and Bill withdrawn by agreement and consent of the House.