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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 1978

Vol. 307 No. 7

Land Bond Bill, 1978: Second Stage .

: I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this short Bill is to increase from £60 million to £80 million the total amount of land bonds which may be created to pay for land acquired by the Land Commission. The bonds are created from time to time by the Minister for Finance under Land Bond Orders which fix the rate of interest for each particular series. The most recent series bear interest at 12½ per cent and are redeemable in 32 years. The existing limit of £60 million, which was fixed under the Land Bond Act 1975, has now been reached, and additional bonds are needed to ensure that there is no holdup in the current ongoing land settlement programme.

In commending this Bill to the House, I should like to make it clear that the Government are not committing themselves to an indefinite continuation of existing land policy. Far from it. As Deputies know, the Government have indicated already that they propose to reform land policy. To this end, it was indicated in our election manifesto that we would establish a new land development authority which would be responsible for structural reform. The Interdepartmental Committee on Land Structure Reform recently submitted their final report, which is at present being printed and will be published within a few weeks. The whole position in regard to land policy, including the committee's report, is being examined currently by my Department, and I will be putting comprehensive proposals before the Government later in the year.

These proposals will have to involve some fundamental changes in policy. I think it is now generally accepted that the traditional land policy based on the acquisition and resale activities of the Land Commission is not suitable for the conditions of 1978 or the conditions that will exist in the years ahead. This traditional policy was quite satisfactory for decades and has made its contribution to improving land structure. But in recent years the pace of change has greatly accelerated and new measures are clearly required to cater for the altered situation.

Irish agriculture is on the move and the land of Ireland has acquired a new importance in the nation's economy. The substantial increases in agricultural prices in the past six or seven years, coupled with the opening up of export market outlets, have completely revolutionised the agricultural scene and have brought a new era to rural Ireland. One of the major results of these developments has been a sharp rise in the value of agricultural land. At the same time, however, other factors have entered in to boost land prices to levels which are far beyond what is justified by normal farming returns.

Inflation is one of these factors. It may well be asked why people seeking a hedge against inflation should be allowed to force up the price of land to the point where the small- and medium-size family farmers have little or no possibility of getting a few extra acres, or at any rate getting them at some kind of reasonable price. Far too many non-farmers have been using land as a safe haven for their excess money and have been doing so in a way which has brought little lasting benefit to the agricultural industry. The speculator who purchases farm land is more interested in money profit than in developing the land and utilising it to the national advantage.

Another factor which has been raising land prices has been the buying up of land by large farmers who have enough already, and in some cases more than enough land. While I would have reservations about preventing a highly progressive farmer from adding to what may already be a substantial enterprise, I do not consider that he should be allowed to do so freely if the result of his action is to prevent some of his smaller neighbours from acquiring the extra acres that would make all the difference between struggling on an inadequate farm and reasonable comfort on a viable holding.

In drawing up new policy proposals, my particular aim will be to help the expansion and development of small-and medium-size family farmers and to see how best they can be enabled to acquire some extra land where they need it.

Much attention is always given to land provided through the Land Commission. This, however, represents a small proportion only of the changes of land ownership that take place. In any event, the escalation in the price of land must necessarily affect the volume of acquisitions by the Land Commission. A price of £2,000 per acre, which is far from the top of the current price range, represents at present an annuity of over £250. There is no general farm activity which would finance such an annuity. If it is expected that the Exchequer should step in and meet a substantial part of the cost, it has to be remembered that the State's coffers are not overflowing and that the State just cannot expend ever-increasing amounts of taxpayer's money to compete with speculators.

By far the most important channel through which farm land ownership changes is inheritance. There is much to be said for encouraging earlier transfers within the family. This, however, is a very sensitive area and it is necessary to be very careful in providing outside advice and encouragement. Associated with family transfers and inheritance is the question of retirement. The EEC Commission has put forward proposals for amending the Farm Retirement Directive, and these are being considered at official level in Brussels and will come before the Council of Ministers in due course. When considering farm inheritance and farm retirement, it is necessary to bear in mind how the whole picture has altered, not merely since the start of the seventies, but even in the past couple of years. The value of the family farm can now be very substantial—well over £100,000 for even a modest holding. The huge amount of capital now involved in a farm has implications for distributions among members of the family and in the years to come may well have a dramatic impact on inheritance and retirement practices within the family.

Another major channel of change of land ownership is sale on the open market. This, of course, is where the price factor really enters in. From time to time, the purchase of some land by a non-national arouses considerable controversy, but I would suggest that the Irish speculators can have far more serious effects on our small- and medium-size farmers. When such farmers see the land needed for viability gobbled up by someone who did not really need more land, it makes little difference whether the purchaser was foreign or Irish. The end result is the same.

How can we improve the situation to deal with the current high land prices and the new thriving condition of our agricultural industry? Various possibilities are being considered by my Department, and after my proposals have been considered by the Government, I will be bringing legislation before the House. The main essential must be to ensure that the small and medium farmers who badly need additional land are not at a disadvantage in competing with non-farmers and with larger farmers with ready access to capital and credit. One possibility would be to have varying charges on purchases by non-farmers and those who already have substantial holdings. In other words, a handicap system would be introduced into the competitive race for more land. If such a system were in operation, the position of the small man would be greatly improved, and sellers of large areas of land might, indeed, have an incentive to sell in smaller lots so as to meet the demand of those farmers who would not be subject to any charge.

Another possibility would be to require some agricultural qualification for persons buying agricultural land. For example, purchases might be limited to those who have been farming or working on the land for a number of years or who have spent some years receiving agricultural training. I must say I have particular sympathy for farmers' sons and other young persons seeking to enter farming at present. Current prices for land make it extremely difficult for them to start out on their own and, even if they raise the huge amount of capital required, the burden of servicing it is almost intolerable.

Yet another possibility would be to give some degree of priority to development farmers needing more land. These and other possibilities must be carefully considered, and it is not possible at this juncture to say which measure, or what combination of measures, will be introduced. However, one thing is clear. Change, indeed fundamental change, is needed. It must be such as to benefit the small and medium farmer. It may in the process reduce the price of land. But this may well be to the overall national advantage if it enables the progressive farmer or the potential young farmer to get his hands on the land he needs.

In any new measures, the national interest in securing expanded agricultural output will, of course, have to be given appropriate weighting. At the same time, the social and emotional attachment of the Irish farmer to his farm will have to be taken into account. Some of the procedures under the existing land legislation are rather slow because of the need to protect the rights of the individual. It would, indeed, be a sad day if in our anxiety to bring about change we were to trample on the rights of existing landowners. But change cannot be made without causing some upset, and I would certainly not worry about upsetting those who have been speculating in land or who may be considering doing so.

As I have said, I hope to put proposals before the Government before the end of the year and subsequently to bring legislation before the House. I have mentioned a few of the many considerations arising and the options open so as to stimulate public discussion of this major topic over the coming months and also to give notice to those who do not really need additional land that it may be unprofitable to assume the price of land will continue to escalate as it has done for several years past.

Until new legislation has been enacted however, it is necessary to provide funds to pay for lands taken over by the Land Commission under the existing legislation. That is the purpose of this Bill which I commend to the House.

: Deputy D'Arcy, who is spokesman on agriculture for our party, will also contribute to this debate. Since the Minister has introduced the Bill it is appropriate that I should say a few words. The impetus to the reform of land policy derives from the decision and the initiative of the former Taoiseach, Deputy L. Cosgrave, to set up an inter-departmental committee on land policy. The committee worked speedily and issued an interim report which provided a topic for lively discussion in agricultural circles. I am glad the Minister has indicated that the report will be published in the near future.

It is important that the Minister recognises decisions should be taken reasonably speedily on the issues involved. It is important that there should be discussion on the proposals emanating from the report and on the Government's tentative decisions thereon. The time for discussion must not be unduly long lest those we wish to discourage should avail of delays to further consolidate their position and see in anticipated legislation an opportunity for doing so.

I welcome the general tenor of the Minister's remarks. Although his speech was quite long the essence of it is contained in his remark that small and medium farmers who badly need additional land should not be at a disadvantage in competing with non-farmers and larger farmers with ready access to capital and credit.

The Minister mentions as one possibility of dealing with this, a handicap system of varying charges for non-farmers and for those who already have substantial holdings. I am obviously not in a position to give an unqualified welcome to the handicap system until I and my party have an opportunity of seeing precisely what the Minister has in mind, but I think this contains the germ of the solution to the problem. I have heard the idea of a handicap system discussed in many quarters in recent months. Care will be needed in devising the precise criteria to be applied in relation to the handicap. People who buy land may be in a category that should be discouraged. Such people should be asked to pay a substantial handicap at the outset. I am referring to people who might appear at the outset to be speculators whose main intention is merely to buy the land, not to employ anybody on it, to open the gate, to put cattle on the land, shut the gate, never come near the land again until they open the gate to sell the cattle, and do not develop the land beyond sitting on it in order that they may be able to make use of the capital gain that occurs when they, hopefully, come to sell the land at a higher price. That sort of activity in agriculture ought to be strenuously discouraged. The imposition of a handicap on people who are liable to do that because of their lack of background in agriculture or because they have sufficient land which they are not working as they should, is a good idea.

However, there are always exceptions. There may be farmers or people who buy land and when they come to use it engage in a very substantial land improvement programme and employ a substantial number of men as permanent employees. It is not possible to differentiate between the pure speculator and the non-farmer without all the qualifications the Minister says he should have, who subsequently shows his good business sense and his dedication to work. It is important that he develops the land. It is important that he employs a substantial number of men. I know people in my constituency who at the time they purchased the land might have been described as speculators. When they got the land they engaged in a very large scale land improvement programme. We all accept that there are a million or two million acres in this country in need of improvement and if people have the capital to do it they should not be discouraged from bringing that capital to bear on the problem. With proper safeguards, there could be provision for a rebate of part of the handicap that might be charged initially to such a man, if he met certain defined criteria in relation to the improvement of the land by substantial investment in it and the creation of permanent jobs on it. This would place him on the level of a person who would not have to pay the handicap. Such a rebate would have to be devised in such a way that it would not create an unfair situation and would assist only people who undertook exceptionally substantial, important and necessary work on the land and who gave employment.

A surprising absence from the Minister's contribution is any significant reference to the idea of long-term leasing of land. There is a lack of interest among farmers at the moment in the idea of a long-term lease. This is based to an extent on historical factors and considerations and on recollection—not personal of course but from one's grandfather—of the problems that leasing your land led you into in the latter part of the last century before the land legislation culminating in Wyndham's Land Act of 1903 was put through.

That understandable and perfectly just fear of a leasing system based on our historical experience should not blind us to the possible merits of leasing in certain circumstances and subject to proper safeguards. One of the problems is persuading farmers in the first place to make their land available for a long-term lease. The first thing you have to have is farmers who are prepared to offer a long-term lease, and then you have some means of assessing how much demand there is for it. At present few, if any, farmers are prepared to make their land available on the basis of a long-term lease. In the provisions of the farm retirement scheme there is an option to lease which on the face of it should have a greater attraction for farmers and which is preferable to the sale of their land because it will revert to them or their successors after 12 years. Under the sale option in the farm retirement scheme the land is gone.

However, the lease option has not been used to any great extent even in the retirement scheme. One reason for this is that there is a doubt in farmers' minds as to their right to recover the land at the end of 12 years because of certain aspects of legislation introduced in the nineteenth century to protect leaseholders. This was very appropriate and necessary in the context of the type of lease then available and the distribution of social and economic power within society at that time. It is not necessarily appropriate to a properly drafted lease at present. We wish to provide a lease with safeguards for all parties which would be fair both to the person whom we wish to encourage to make his land available, not on the 11 months system which is a bad one, but on a longer lease which enables the farmer taking the lease——

: Would the Deputy please forgive the Chair for intervening? I accept that the Minister is responsible for what is happening now, but we are inclined to lose sight of the Bill before the House. We are dealing with land structures and I take it that there will be a complete opportunity to discuss these other matters at a later stage. However, the Minister in his opening brief introduced this but we have not had a word on the Bill as yet. Deputy Bruton to continue.

: Equally I did not expect that the Minister was going to deal with this broad canvas in his speech. To a great extent both Deputy D'Arcy and I were caught unawares because we thought the Minister's contribution would be confined to the Bill.

: I would suggest, nevertheless, that we curtail the discussion to some extent at this stage because we will have an opportunity later to discuss these other matters.

: I am surprised that the Chair did not intervene in the Minister's speech.

: The Chair has no responsibility as far as speeches of Ministers are concerned.

: I will not get into an argument. That is not so. As far as relevance is concerned the Chair is concerned with the contributions of all Members of the House. There are not two categories of Members in the House as far as relevance is concerned.

It was in that context that Macra na Feirme suggested the idea of a model lease which would be underwritten by the State and would be fair to both sides. It would encourage long-term leases. The Minister should not put that out of his mind because it was a good suggestion. We should either introduce something along those lines or change the legislation, or both. It is necessary to encourage long-term leasing. The advantage of long-term leasing is that people at the maximum period of activity in their lives as farmers, a period of from 12 to 20 years, can get extra land on a long-term lease for that period without necessarily having to buy it and pay a huge capital sum for it, and, perhaps, having to retain it in their latter years when they may not be as well able to work it.

The idea of a long-term lease allows the farmer, without a huge capital outlay, to start off with a relatively small farm and leave the larger farm for his maximum period of farming activity. When that lease expires and he is a little older and only able to operate a smaller amount of land the lease would cease. That allows more mobility of land, more flexibility and relationship between the amount of land worked at any given time by a farmer and the amount he is able to work by virtue of his age and so forth. In the course of his contribution the Minister mentioned the idea of the encouragement of farm inheritance. The Minister pointed out, correctly, that the amount of land passing through the Land Commission was only a small part of the total land market. He said that the amount passing by inheritance was much larger and that early inheritance should be encouraged. He told us that farm inheritance was a sensitive area and it was necessary to be careful in providing outside advice and encouragement. I do not know how careful one needs to be in providing advice and encouragement because they do not compel anybody to do anything. I wonder if the Minister is being hyper-cautious about giving advice. His party in their election manifesto indicated that they intended to introduce a farm inheritance counselling service and I was surprised that the initiation of this service was not mentioned by the Minister today. The Minister may intend incorporating it in the new arrangement under the long delayed Bill. If that is the case will it be in effect quickly enough? The Minister should take steps to charge county committees of agriculture with the responsibility of encouraging farm inheritance at an earlier age. He should set up a programme for information and advice as to the various technicalities involved. He should initiate training programmes immediately for one or two advisers in each county in relation to the problem of farm inheritance so that action can be taken straight away. I am only inferring that it is the Minister's intention to incorporate this in the new Bill but if that is not so he should tell us what his intention is in relation to farm inheritance counselling.

I should also like to raise the question of socio-economic advisers in each county. Such advisers are envisaged in a directive dealing with farm modernisation.

: The Chair is really in trouble now because the Deputy is going beyond what the Minister said in his brief. The Deputy is extending it further. There is nothing before the House but a simple little Bill dealing with land bonds. I accept that the Minister in his brief extended that considerably but the Deputy is extending it further.

: I accept that I am but what I am saying is no more irrelevant than anything the Minister said. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Socio-economic advisers should be linked to the farm inheritance work I mentioned and I should like to have the Minister's views on that matter. It is not our intention to create any difficulty in the passage of this Bill. The provisions of the Bill are necessary to curb land speculation here, to curb the unfair advantage which people, foreign and Irish, non-farmers and large farmers, have as against small farmers in the purchase of land. Such measures are necessary but they should be devised in such a manner as to create fair competition, something which does not exist at present in the purchase of land. They should encourage the maximum amount of investment of capital in agriculture and the maximum development of our land, its drainage and its improvement. The important consideration is not so much who farms the land as how well it is farmed and how many people are engaged full-time in its farming. That should be the overriding consideration and I hope the Minister will keep the factors I mentioned in mind when devising the proposals which will arise from the inter-departmental committee report which was commissioned by the previous Government and will be presented by this Government.

: We have been caught off guard somewhat by the Minister's introduction because it was not along the lines we expected. He has broadened the scope of the debate considerably and we are entitled to deal with some of the material he has presented. It is a pity that the Minister introduced this Bill before the inter-departmental committee reported. If we are talking about land restructuring here the one section that has the personnel, the technique and money to do so is the Land Commission. I am not pleased with the present system of paying for land with land bonds. This system has been unfair to the sellers of land. I can never understand why some unfortunate person has not brought the Land Commission to court. As far as I am concerned, we are acquiring land by compulsion and paying for it as we see fit, in many cases to the detriment of the person selling the land. I admit that the raising of the interest rate to 16 per cent made land bonds attractive to people selling land, but some land bonds are absolutely useless. Officials of the Land Commission often attend auctions as observers. When the land reaches a certain price per acre and is knocked down to a bidder, the Land Commission then step in and put a stay on the sale. They declare their interest in it and that they intend to pay for it with land bonds.

A different system should be introduced now. I wonder whether the Land Commission could create a climate in which a seller would approach them in regard to the sale of land, knowing that they should be buying the land because they will divide it among needy farmers. If we could create such a climate we would satisfy the seller. I know that large farmers who have a rough idea of the Land Commission's price have brought people with them to sales to force the bidding in order to make the land uneconomical for the commission. The Minister must be aware of this because it happened less than 50 miles from his county.

When the Land Commission put a stay on a sale the buyer can take his case to the land courts. I know of two cases in Wexford where the Land Commission have been beaten in court by strong farmers. I state these cases to point out to the Minister the difficult problem he has on hand. The problem of land purchase should be solved for the people who need the land.

There has been no mention of interest rates in the Bill.

: The figure is 12½ per cent.

: Is the Minister satisfied that 12½ per cent is an adequate and fair rate for people who are forced to sell land to the Land Commission? Am I right in saying that there is a 16 per cent land bond? Is the Minister in a position to vary the interest rate when the Bill goes through the Dáil or will the rate remain at 12½ per cent until the money is spent?

: The issue stays at 12½ per cent.

: I wish Deputy D'Arcy would make his speech. If there are any questions he can ask them afterwards. At this stage we cannot proceed by way of question and answer.

: There is no reference in the Bill to interest rates. The interest rate in my note is 12½ per cent but it can be varied by the Minister for Finance.

: The interest rate can be varied from time to time by the Minister for Finance?

: It is essential to remember that 12½ per cent may look good now but it may be inadequate in six months' time. For that reason the Minister should vary the rate as the value of money increases. I believe it could take two or three years to solve problems in regard to the sale of land through the courts. The person who sells the land cannot get his money until the problems are solved. Therefore, the Land Commission are in a difficult position in that they are holding up the sale of land, deferring payment of money to the seller of the land and at the same time they have to fight the large farmers.

The Minister referred to a figure of £2,000 requiring a repayment of approximately £250 per annum. It seems that the present price of land is £2,000 per acre, in many cases higher. The Minister has not said how he intends to try to maintain present prices.

Speaking of the larger farmer buying land with a very high acreage it is essential that there be enforced a varying stamp duty rate to decrease their strength in buying land at top prices. At the same time in order to give some hope to the smaller farmers, and there are hundreds of thousands of them in the 40, 50 and 60 acreage group, it is essential also that their capacity at the bottom of the scale be augmented. If it were possible to decrease the capacity of the man at the top and increase the capacity of his counterpart at the bottom of the scale, then the latter would have some hope of going to an auction to acquire badly needed land in order to make his present holding viable.

As the Minister rightly said, inflation is one factor that must be taken into consideration in land prices. It used to increase yearly but is now a six-monthly event and this has been the situation for some time now. Perhaps the Minister has something to do with that or he could claim that his predecessor had but certainly in the last four years, we have seen the steepest increase in land prices and inflation has been one of the inherent factors, as the Minister himself said. The Minister also said:

It may well be asked why people seeking a hedge against inflation should be allowed to force up the price of land to the point where the small- and medium-size family farmers have little or no possibility of getting a few extra acres,...

That is a very true statement. It is only right that we should examine who is buying this land. But I am prepared to state that there are syndicates buying land who, by pooling their resources, have become very powerful. Indeed it has reached the stage in some counties that they are calling the tune. The sooner legislation is enacted to ensure that these people can no longer force the issue as far as buying land in an area is concerned the better. It is a dreadful situation, one which has developed particularly in Leinster.

If the Minister were prepared to suggest a formula by which our small farmers could go off to the market place to buy land he would be doing a great job not alone for them but for the country as a whole. Some of these large tracts of land in many areas are merely well fenced off, are used for grazing cattle and are not giving the type of production or employment it is essential that we reap from our land at this juncture. The farm retirement scheme is another facet that I feel should be——

: I am afraid the Deputy is really extending the scope of the debate now despite what the Minister did.

: One small word on it.

: Not on this Bill, please Deputy.

: Being a Wexford man, I thought the Chair——

: Do not expect it on those grounds, please.

: The Minister has said that a handicap system will be introduced into the competitive race for more land. That is a very interesting statement. He went on to say:

If such a system were in operation, the position of the small man would be greatly improved, and sellers of large areas of land might, indeed, have an incentive to sell in smaller lots so as to meet the demand of those farmers who would not be subject to any charge.

That is a statement warranting an enormous amount of action before such a situation is realised. I should love to see such a situation obtaining. But an enormous amount of legislation will have to be brought before this House, and there will be a lot of opposition to it, because—I am a large farmer myself and am not ashamed to admit it—the large farmer is a greedy man and he is very fond of his land. If land goes up for sale beside him, my goodness will he go for that. That is the position obtaining at present and that is what the Minister must meet with legislation. I would urge that the land bond situation be met by a variable interest rate so that we would not have to do so much dragging and pulling out of the Minister for Finance to get him to change this interest rate in line with changing times.

Over the years the Land Commission have had the bad habit of retaining land. I asked the Minister in the past month to give me a list of holdings in my own county held by the Land Commission and I was more than surprised to see the amount of land held by them, even in County Wexford. When the Land Commission acquire land they should devise some speedy system of dividing it. I shall not describe such land as a liability because at present the Land Commission set it but, if they divided it, the farmers would be satisfied and it would put an end to all of the present kind of pressure within an area, where people press for this, that or the other portion.

I know the Land Commission are at present, on a limited scale, selling land for cash. I would advocate wider use of this practice. I believe that both the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the commercial banks would advocate that the Land Commission devise a system of payment in cash for as much land as possible, thereby increasing the Land Commission's capacity to buy land. It has been said that the Land Commission are in a position to buy practically all land available and that there are no cut-backs but the retention of land over a long period is a mistake. We have seen this obtain for many years. I can recall one area in County Wexford where land was held by them for ten years, a great mistake in a congested area. I welcome the change in policy that, when the Land Commission are selling land, they are prepared to offer it to people with small acreages, no longer putting it up for public auction and allowing the larger landowners to come in and take it up on the yearly basis. This is a very welcome step by the Land Commission.

I believe the main emphasis in their policy should be the sale of land for cash—thereby giving them more cash available to buy land—which I believe would be welcomed by the ACC and the commercial banks at present. I worked in the ACC for a period and I have mentioned this matter on a couple of occasions already. I understand that the commercial banks would also welcome a policy under which all people interested in land should purchase it for cash. I am endeavouring to safeguard the interests of people selling land to the Land Commission. It is essential in that regard that we retain the interest rate and vary it in accordance with the changing values of money.

: I thank Deputies for their contributions. We would appear to have the same general purpose and recognise the same obstacles. The obstacles are very great. The purpose is to ensure that there is not unfairness in the land market and we acknowledge that there is at present. The task is to devise the means by which this unfairness may be disposed of. As Deputy Bruton and Deputy D'Arcy have been saying, it is fraught with a great many difficulties and one will have to incur the displeasure of some people in seeking after the greater good, the introduction of the fairness we have been talking about to the land market. I believe it can be done, but it will not be easy. It will not be done at all unless we make a start. We start through legislation and I have told the House that it is my intention to put proposals before the Government before the end of this year and thereafter, with the approval of the Government, to introduce legislation to deal with this question. Possibly I overstepped my limits in relevance when I was opening and if I did, please forgive me.

On the question of leasing, Deputy Bruton must recognise, coming from where he does, the anxiety that besets people at what they describe as seeing a stranger in the yard. We must recognise the attachment of the Irish farmer to his land and the personal view that he takes of it. The emotional link between himself and his land is a very real thing and every rural Deputy knows that. If anybody tries to intrude on that attachment he is heading into trouble. People in the socio-economic advice sector must be very careful in this regard. In relation to family counselling and counselling with regard to inheritance, I would not apologise for extreme caution in this field.

: I presume the Minister is talking about inheritance and not about the leasing issue.

: I am referring to inheritance counselling. In that area, unless I misread my own neighbours, people will seek advice of a particular kind when they require it, but it would be wrong to have such advice thrust upon them. I appreciate Deputy Bruton's point that the availability in each county would probably be a good idea. Possibly the availability of advice of a kind different to that we are used to, agricultural advice, would be a better indicator. That is work for another day, but it is certainly a worthwhile thought.

Regarding closed lettings, the closing of the letting of land to eligible people in an area, that is an idea that is being practised by the Land Commission. It is something I often advocated in the House, both from the Government and the Opposition benches. We recognise the common problem, the hogging of letting land in an area by the big operator. We have no quarrel with the fact that he is a big operator but we quarrel with the fact that he is interfering with other people who cannot fight back.

I apologise for any misunderstanding when Deputy D'Arcy asked a direct question regarding interest rates. I am told that if a higher interest bearing land bond is current when a sale takes place, the higher interest bearing bond is used on that occasion.

: Would the Minister like to comment on long-term leasing?

: We should not get back to that again.

: Operated ideally, it has the advantage that the Deputy outlines, but it is a minefield, in my opinion.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 20 June 1978.
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