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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 1978

Vol. 307 No. 12

Vote 45: Posts and Telegraphs .

: I move:

That a sum not exceeding £150,232,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1978, for salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

: There are two aspects of the Minister's responsibilities on which I should like to get some information. The major issue in the past six or eight months has been the prolonged industrial dispute in the telecommunications section which left a huge backlog of out-of-order telephones and, of course, of applicants for new telephones and telex connections as well as a rapid increase in applications for computer data lines and so forth. Time does not permit me to go into detail on these matters but I should be obliged if the Minister would inform the House what is happening in relation to the industrial relations situation in the Department. Are we right in hinting that the Minister has set up some kind of examining body to go into the whole industrial relations structure of the Department, with particular reference to the telecommunications sector? The Dail is about to adjourn for three or four months and people have been asking me, and no doubt other Deputies, if we can be assured that during that period the telecommunications services will be available without interruption. I should like the Minister to tell us whether within the current examination he is carrying out into the industrial relations situation he will include a feasibility study on the question of hiving off the telecommunications services to a semi-State body.

In relation to broadcasting, I should like to know if the Minister is aware that there is an enormous demand for local radio. There is evidence of this in the growth of pirate radio stations. I do not know what is the thinking of the Minister and the Department in relation to this question. He must realise that there is an enormous demand for local radio. He has three options open to him. One is that the Government would make adequate finances available to RTE to enable them to proceed with plans which I understand they have submitted to the Government for the provision of a local radio service under the control of RTE. The Minister has been sitting on these submission for a long time.

His second option is to set up an appropriate licensing arrangement to control the pirate stations. Some such arrangements will have to be entered into. RTE are unable to meet the demand for local radio in the major provincial centres. I should like the Minister to indicate what are his proposals in this matter, particularly in relation to pirate stations.

: I will be brief. I should like to ask the Minister what progress he has made in relation to the pirate radio situation, for the principal reason that his apparent delay in sorting out the problem is causing major headaches for the planners of future radio-TV services for which he is responsible. I ask the Minister to indicate firmly to the House that he considers his primary role in this new development as being one of protecting, and extending where necessary, the role of public service broadcasting. The growth of the pirate radio stations, whatever about their legality and whatever about their licensing, has created a situation in which the whole concept of public service broadcasting has been called into question. We look to the Minister to defend that concept and to extend it to ensure its maximum flexibility to meet this challenge.

On a number of points of detail in relation to the Estimate I should like to make two other comments to the Minister. One is in relation to subhead L. 1, which is the grant for general purposes to RTE. I would appeal to the Minister to consider transferring responsibility and authority for collecting licence fees directly to RTE. The cost of collecting these licence fees in the Minister's Department is almost £1 million, according to the Book of Estimates, out of a total amount collected of some £14 million. There is no indication in the Estimate of how this figure of £900,000 was arrived at. Was it arrived at on an exact calculation of the time of the officers involved? Was it arrived at simply by thinking of a figure and doubling it? Whatever way it was arrived at, it seems to be extraordinarily high. I have no doubt that RTE could do the job considerably more efficiently and more quickly.

The final point I want to make in relation to the detail of the Estimate is to ask the Minister why subhead A.1 includes a sum of £3,000 for legal and other expenses in connection with commissions and inquiries, whereas the cost of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission is included under subhead L.1 in the amounts which are actually deducted from the licence fees before they are transmitted to RTE. I should like the Minister's comments on those points.

: We have not a great deal of time this evening to go into any of these Estimates in any great detail. It is a shame that we should put through the House an Estimate for over £150 million in such a short time. However, this has been agreed, for whatever reasons. I should like to draw to the Minister's attention a deplorable situation in County Dublin. In many new housing estates residents have been in occupation of their houses for over two years and they are unable to obtain telephone connection. A number of people who moved into my constituency have had to move out of it because they were unable to get telephones. A local public kiosk would solve many problems if the Minister has difficulty in getting sufficient lines to connect whatever percentage of the residents of these estates have applied for telephones. Many residents are in dire need of telephone communication with doctors, or ambulances, or whatever services they need, or even to get in touch with their friends.

They have written to me, and I am sure to other Deputies representing the County Dublin area, seeking the provision of a public telephone at least. We get a stock reply from the Department which means nothing. They promise a telephone in six or eight months, time and, when we write to them in six or eight months' time, the period is extended for a further six or eight months. It seems to run into years now before new housing estates can have telephone contact with the rest of the county, or the city, or the country. I appeal to the Minister to provide at least one public telephone in each new housing estate. I know it is not easy to keep up with the development of the county and that many people are looking for telephones. I do not know what the figure is, but I am sure upwards of 80 per cent of the people in these new housing estates apply for and eventually get telephones. The Minister should try to provide one or two public telephones in these areas until the lines are available for private telephones.

People look for some telephone connection and a public telephone is provided when the telephone service is being installed in the houses, with the result that the public kiosk will not pay. I understand the Minister's Department are not prepared to provide a public kiosk in an area where it is not likely to pay, but surely a public telephone or two would pay in an area with 800 houses, no matter what the cost of providing them. We harp constantly on the question of damage to public telephone kiosks but, in some housing estates in Tallaght where public telephones were provided before the private service, no damage was done because they were constantly in use. In fact, there were always queues. This is an indication that such a service would pay. Even if it did not pay, the Minister should be prepared to give this service to people moving into these new houses.

The Minister's Department should accept that a public telephone in rural areas is a social service. The Minister should reconsider his decision and his predecessors' decision not to provide rural public telephones unless they were likely to pay. I do not think that is a proper attitude on the part of a Department providing this kind of service. Remote areas are more entitled to this service than built-up areas in which there is likely to be greater use. In the latter areas, every second, or every fifth, or every seventh house will have a telephone which can be used by neighbours. In the remote areas where very few people have telephones, it is far more important that we should provide public telephones.

: I should like to make a few very brief comments on difficulties somewhat similar to those mentioned by Deputy McMahon. We both represent the same sort of areas which are developing more rapidly than any other part of Europe. There are bound to be teething problems of one sort or another. There seems to be some lack of co-ordination and planning between the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and housing development generally.

We are trying to find jobs for people. There is something wrong when we realise that people living in an estate which has been in existence for a couple of years can have their post delivered in the afternoon only. It must be a question of postmen, or sorters and postmen. There must be some answer to it. Some people get their post delivered at 8 o'clock in the morning and others cannot get it delivered until the afternoon. This problem should and could be rectified by the Department. I should like the Minister to say something about that when he is replying.

Another complaint I hear frequently since the prolonged strike is that it is taking far too long to rectify the situation. In many cases it is even worse than it was when the strike was on. Perhaps the Minister would say something about this and advise the House as to when he hopes and expects things will return to normal.

I agree with Deputy McMahon that it is a matter for alarm when estates are in existence for two years and nobody has a telephone, even priority cases. I do not know whether it is a question of waiting for delivery of materials that must be ordered for several years. I know there was an element of that kind some time ago and I do not know whether it still exists. It is really a dangerous situation in certain instances where people on whom others are depending for their professional skill, such as doctors and nurses, have not telephones. Business people who have had telephones in other situations cannot get transfers because the groundwork is not done and the lines are not there.

I think we have the worst telephone repair service in the world. It must be the worst and it must be the most expensive. It must be due to one of two things. Perhaps we have the most obsolete equipment which simply cannot be repaired. Perhaps the technicians are not well qualified or do not care an awful lot. It may be a combination of both these factors. Technicians come and go—I do not know at what cost— but they are no sooner gone than a telephone is broken down again. There must be an explanation for this.

: Deputy O'Donnell raised the question of the Industrial action taken by the Irish Post Office Engineering Union. It will be agreed that a great deal has already been said on behalf of all the parties involved in or affected by this dispute and I see no useful purpose in raking over the issues and trying to apportion blame. It can be safely left to the good sense of both sides to learn from experience. Now is the time for looking forward and I have confidence in the ability of the people concerned on both the staff and the management side to face the future in a spirit of goodwill and co-operation and to work together to recover the lost ground and to develop an efficient telecommunications system which will satisfy the requirements of the users.

With regard to the present situation, the discussions on the claim are continuing at the departmental conciliation council under the chairmanship of the director of the Labour Court's conciliation service. In accordance with the arrangements accepted for the ending of the industrial action, these discussions are proceeding as quickly as possible and, of course, it would be open to the union if they were not satisfied with the progress to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister. Under the terms of the scheme of conciliation and arbitration the proceedings of the departmental council are confidential and it would be inappropriate, therefore, to comment further on the claim at this stage. Needless to say, I hope that the claim will be settled quickly and I am sure the Deputy would agree with me.

The Deputy also asked a question about the review of the staff rules and regulations and the mediation committee. The various proposals which were put forward by the ICTU for the ending of the industrial action included a recommendation that there would be a review of the grievance and disciplinary procedures and rules and regulations which had been under consideration by the Departmental conciliation council and that this should be continued under a mediator nominated by the chairman of the Labour Court. This recommendation was accepted both by the staff and the Department and this review is proceeding. The review is intended to be wide-ranging and I would hope that when the council have completed their deliberations an improved framework of staff relations will be agreed.

The proposals also included a recommendation that the existing grievance procedures be improved by the provision of a mediation committee also presided over by a mediator appointed by the chairman of the Labour Court. This committee has been established by agreement and problems which could not be resolved in direct discussions have been referred to the mediation committee. Any issue of difficulty which, having been processed through the grievance committee, still remains unresolved can in future be referred by either side to the mediation committee and if agreement cannot be reached then the mediator will make a recommendation.

As the House is aware, the Government announced in their pre-election manifesto their intention of examining the desirability of giving autonomy to the telecommunications service and of modernising the postal service. I have been giving detailed consideration to both these matters and I expect to make an announcement in respect of these very shortly.

The other matter raised by the Deputy related to broadcasting. Pirate broadcasting is in the news. The operators of these stations have been securing publicity that conveys a sympathetic and, might I say, even an heroic impression of their activities. Of course, they themselves have been using the airwaves for this purpose. What is overlooked is the fact that these operators are acting in open defiance of the law. They have appropriated any frequencies that suit their purposes. They are operating on whatever power they choose for themselves. They are a potential menace to radio services generally. The question of introducing fresh legislation to help combat pirate broadcasting is under consideration at present. It will be appreciated that I am unable at this stage to give details of what will be covered in any draft legislation on this matter, but I would hope to introduce a Bill in the next session.

RTE's proposals for a local radio service for Dublin and other radio developments are still under consideration. The issues involved are somewhat complex and certain aspects of long-term broadcasting policy also have to be taken into consideration. I am dealing with that as rapidly as I can.

Deputy McMahon raised the question of the telephone service in the new housing areas. He will appreciate that very considerable difficulty is experienced in meeting demands for telephones in many of the new housing estates, especially in Dublin. The main problem in the provision of telephones in newly developed housing estates is that it involves extensive local cabling schemes. Even if the Department had adequate resources it would be difficult to carry out schemes of this type in advance of the completion of the houses. Ducts for cables are provided at the building stage of estates where telephone demand is likely to be high. Until this is done cabling cannot be undertaken and the distribution of wiring to individual houses cannot proceed. We are doing what we can in relation to this to try to speed up the provision of telephones.

Kiosks in urban areas are provided, in general terms, only where they are expected to pay their way and where the existing kiosks are not adequate to meet the demands on them. Kiosks are provided in new housing development areas in accordance with the general urban kiosk policy, but the Department do not insist on the usual conditions being fully satisfied in such housing estates, particularly where, because of cabling and other difficulties, delay in providing private telephones is unavoidable.

: Would the Minister consider providing public kiosks in estates? People cannot understand why the builder can have a telephone on the site when he is there but when he is gone there is no phone whatever on the site.

: I cannot give the Deputy a commitment but I will look into what he has said. Reference was made to the problems in relation to the postal services. I accept that in recent months there has been some impairment of the smooth functionings of the postal services by certain temporary factors such as, for example, the breakdown of mechanical mail-handling equipment in the central sorting office which could not be repaired until the technicians' industrial action ceased. Understandably, we also had teething troubles in the early stages of the five-day week in some areas and because of the interim arrangement in force for the carriage of first-class cross-Channel mail. However, the position is being gradually improved as these difficulties, which are having constant attention are being ironed out. Our postal services are exceptionally good compared with those in many other developed countries. That does not mean that we are not all the time trying to go forward.

: Is the Minister serious?

: I am, and that is one thing that needs to be stressed again and again, because very often the opposite opinion has been expressed. If one were to compare our postal services here with those of many other countries in western Europe one would find that they are exceptionally good here.

: They have deteriorated.

: I pointed out to the Deputy that there are certain temporary problems involved but we are overcoming these by degrees. Deputy Horgan raised the question of subhead K.1 and L.1 and asked why both appeared to provide for the same type of expenditure. K.1 refers to the Post Office Users' Council, and the cost of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission is deducted in calculating the grant under L.1 paid to RTE. I am sorry that I have not long to deal with the many matters raised but I think I have dealt with the most important ones.

: May we have a further opportunity of discussing this Estimate?

: That matter was raised already and it is not for me. It would be a matter for consultation between the Whips.

Vote put and agreed to.
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