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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 1978

Vol. 309 No. 6

An Bille um Udarás na Gaeltachta, 1978: An Dara Céim (Atógáil). Udáras na Gaeltachta Bill, 1978: Second Stage (Resumed).

Athchuireadh an Cheist: "Go léifear an Bille an Dara hUair." Question again proposed "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Nuair a cuireadh deireadh leis an díospóireacht cóicíos ó shin bhí mé ag déanamh tagairt do ghluaiseacht na comharíochta san Ghaeltacht, agus dúirt mé gurb é mó thuairimse—is féidir liom é seo a rá le firinne agus gan aon amhras ormsa faoi chor ar bith—nach bhfuil aon tslí is fearr chun forbairt na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn ná tré chomharchumainn éifeachtacha.

Nuair a deirim "forbairt na Gaeltachta", tá san áireamh agam ní amháin forbairt eacnamaíochta agus forbairt shóisialacha ach chomh maith leis sin forbairt chúltúrtha. Tá sé profa go soiléir ar feadh na blianta gur féidir le comharchumann a bhfuil tacaíocht láidir aige ó mhuintir an cheantair obair iontach a dhéanamh chun leas mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus leas na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn.

Nuair a bhí mé im Aire na Gaeltachta bhí sé mar phríomh-aidhm agam gluaiseacht na comharíochta a chur chun cinn ar gach uile bhealach. Bunaíodh Comórtas Phobal na Gaeltachta i 1974 chun muintir na Gaeltachta i ngach paróiste a mhealladh chun comharchumainn a bhunú, agus mar a dúirt mé an lá deireannach, tá an dul chun cinn sin le feiceáil ar fud na Gaeltachta. Thóg mé cúpla comharchumainn chun taispeáint, chun cruthú, an dea-obair is féidir a dhéanamh san bhforbairt phobail.

Tá cúpla ceisteanna agamsa don Aire faoi ghluaiseacht na comharíochta agus go háirithe na comharchumainn. Cúpla mí sular fhág mé oifig Aire na Gaeltachta bhí cúpla cruinnithe agam le Comhdáil Chomharchumann na Gaeltachta. Tháinig ionadaithe ó na comharchumainn ar fud na Gaeltachta le chéile cúpla uair chun a gcuid fadhbanna a phlé, agus bhí eagras maith ann ar feadh tamaill, agus sular fhág mise an oifig cuireadh an t-eagras sin ar bonn níos sásúla agus ar bonn seasmhach, agus bhí mé ag plé conas is féidir gluaiseacht na comharíochta a chur chun cinn. Bhí sé beartaithe ag an am sin lár-ionad a bhunú sna Forbacha i Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus oifigeach lán-aimsireach a cheapadh. Phléigh mé an cheist go léir leis an IAOS agus is féidir liom a rá go bhfuil an IAOS antábhachtach agus gur thugadar antacaiocaht do ghluaiseacht na comharíochta sa Ghaeltacht. Níl fhios agam ar ceapadh an t-oifigeach lán-aimseartha sin. Bhí sé scriobhtha go mbeadh láreagras sna Forbacha, go mbeadh foireann lán-aimseartha ann, agus go háirithe, go mbeadh Comharchumann na Gaeltachta ceapaithe. Bhí mo Roinn sásta tacaiocht airgeadais a thabhairt an t-am sin. Chabhraigh an IAOS go mor chun é sin a dhéanamh. Níl fhios agam an raibh aon dul chun cinn faoi sin. Níor léigh mé aon rud sna páipéir ar feadh tamaill faoi. Ba é mo thuairim an tam sin, agus sé mo thuairim fós, go gcabhródh lár-eagras nó lárionad mar sin chun ghluaiseacht na comhariochta a chur chun cinn agus go gcabhródh eagras mar sin go mór chun na comharchumainn a neartú agus an ghluaiseacht. a chur chun cinn ar fud na Gaeltachta.

Níl fhios agam cad iad polasaíthe an Aire, níl fhios agam conas is féidir leis an Údarás gluaiseacht na comharíochta a chur chun cinn, ach deirimse go láidir nach mbeidh aon mhaitheas chor ar bith san Údarás sin muna mbeidh sé mar phríomh-aidhm ag an Údarás gluaiseacht na comharíochta a chur chun cinn.

Rinne an Teachta Horgan tagairt fada do chúrsaí oideachais na Gaeltachta. Cé nach bhfuil Aire na Gaeltachta freagrach go díreach i dtaobh cúrsaí oideachais, mar sin féin tá baint mhór ag cúrsaí oideachais sa Ghaeltacht le leas na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn agus leas na teanga chomh maith. Nuair a bhi mé im Aire na Gaeltachta tharla fadhbanna mar sin ar fud na Gaeltachta agus chabhraigh an tAire Oideachais an t-am sin, Risteárd de Búrca, go mór, agus tá creidiúint mhór ag dul dó as ucht iar-bhunoideachas árd-leibhéil a chur ar fáil do mhuintir Inis Mhóir, muintir Choirr na Móna agus Indreabháin. Ní raibh aon iar-bhunoideachas ar fáil do muintir Oileáin Árainn go dtí an tam sin, ach tré an chabhair a thug an tAire sin ag an am, tá cúrsai oideachais ardleibhéil ar fáil san cheantar sin anois.

Ach tá fadhbanna eíle ar fud na Gaeltachta. Tá ceantar mór Ghaeltachta i dTír Chonaill ina bhfuil an teanga beo fós, agus san cheantar mór sin níl scoil iar-bhunoideachais ar chor ar bith. Tá na dáltaí san cheantar Ghaeltachta sin ag dul go dtí áiteanna eile taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht go meánscoileanna agus ceardscoileanna. Ní féidir le héinne leas na teanga agus leas na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn nuair atá an scéal mar sin. Tá obair an-mhór le déanamh i dtaobh sin. Níl aon mhaith bheith ag caint faoi Údarás na Gaeltachta, faoi fhorbairt na Gaeltachta nó faoi leas na Gaeilge muna bhfuil beartaiocht ceart maidir le cúrsaí oideachais suas go dtí an t-Ard Teistiméireacht i ngach ceantar Ghaeltachta. Bhí sé amaideach ar fad i gcás na nOileán Arainn. Sna h-oileáin sin tá teanga beo, láidir, agus i rith na blianta bhí ar na daltaí as Arainn dul go dtí meánscoileanna agus ceardscoileanna san Ghalltacht.

Baineann cúrsaí oideachais go mór le forbairt na Gaeltachta, because the educational dimension of Gaeltacht development impinges greatly on the responsibility of the Minister for the Gaeltacht. There is a need for full post-primary facilities in Gaeltacht areas. I had discussions with the Department or Education on the normal criteria for the granting of senior cycle or post-primary facilities in places like Inis Meáin, a small area and I was told that the numbers were not there and so on. However, in fairness to the Department, I must state that the officials were most helpful. I feel that the normal criteria applicable to the Gaeltacht and to larger population centres for the granting of post primary facilities should not apply in the case of the Gaeltacht. It was Mr. Richard Burke, my former colleague and the then Minister for Education who recognised this fact in regard to Inis Mór, Cornamona and Indreabhán, where three junior cycle vocational schools were upgraded and are now providing full senior cycle facilities. The other classical example of where the educational defect enters into it is in the Gaeltacht Lár of Tír Chonaill, a huge area called in English the mid-Donegal Gaeltacht and which comprises many small villages and parishes. It is a huge area where there is no Gaeltacht post-primary school. The children from there when they are finished primary school have to go into the Gaeltacht for their post-primary facilities. Is fadhb anamhór í. Ba chóir don Aire bheith í gcónaí ag féachaint uirthi. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, ní raibh i gceist agamsa labhairt inniu go dtí gur léigh mé na páipéiri maidin inniu. Chonaic mé ar pháipéar amháin "Gaeltarra's Frantic Appeal to the the Government". I read in this report that, concurrently with the Dáil debate on the future of the Gaeltacht and the bringing in of new legislation specifically for the purpose of accelerating Gaeltacht development, we have Gaeltarra Éireann's frantic appeal to the Government. "The highly successful semi-State agency, Gaeltarra Eireann yesterday issued an ultimatium to the Government: do something quickly or it would be impossible for us to attract further investment to Gaeltacht areas." Fuair mé cupla nóiméad o shin an tuarascáil bhliantiúil de Ghaeltarra Éireann a fhoilsiódh inniu. I want to point out that this reference in the news media this morning is the publication today of Gaeltarra Éireann's annual report for 1977. Of course, it is nearly a year out of date now but nevertheless it reveals a very serious and alarming situation: it is most unusual for a semi-State body to issue ultimatums to the Government of the day. This reflects the gravity of the situation.

I referred to this when I was speaking here the last day in no sense of political acrimony, but I stated the fact that Gaeltarra Éireann were now having extreme difficulties in attracting new investment to the Gaeltacht by reason of the fact that the grants and inducements being offered in these very remote areas are no better than those offered in Dublin and other major centres. The very points I made two weeks ago are spelled out this morning and are clearly illustrated in this annual report.

While the report refers to 1977 I understand the position has worsened in 1978. In two month's time Gaeltarra will be publishing their preliminary review of the year. From my information I understand that the situation in relation to attraction of investment has worsened considerably in 1978. It was bad in 1977 and has been commented on in the annual report. Since this State was founded and far back in the establishment of the Congested Districts Board special recognition was given to the remoteness, the isolation, the extreme economic and social problems of the removed, peripheral, maritime regions which are the Gaeltacht areas. The territory catered for by the Congested Districts Board coincides to a large degree with the area for which the Minister has responsibility now. Special grants, special incentive, special inducements were given. They were always continued right down along until recent times and now Gaeltarra are in the position, as I said here, and I quote from the Irish Independent of today's date:

The carrot of export tax relief, ready built factories, available labour and capital grants, which Gaeltarra offered to foreigners were the same as those offered by the IDA, which could offer factories in Dublin and in the provinces with a better infrastructure. Hitherto the Gaeltacht areas were more enticing, because their capital grants were higher and they had a greater number of ready-built factories.

The Independent report went on:

A spokesman for the organisations said yesterday: "We want the Government to boost our incentive package and restore the edge we had on other industrial development agencies at home and abroad."

There is no doubt whatsoever that there is very little in this and in fact without my being aware of it Gaeltarra were commenting now on the exact points I commented on two weeks ago. It is nonsense to bring in a Bill to set up a new development agency for the Gaeltacht when at the same time we have the agency which is responsible making frantic appeals to the Government to do something. I said that my main criticism of the Minister's speech the last day was the fact that he did not indicate precisely what powers the Údarás would have, what new grants, incentives and concessions would be made available under the new Údarás. My reading of it is that there is nothing in the Bill to indicate that incentives and the grants and differentials in favour of the Gaeltacht regions will continue and I defy any Deputy in this House, irrespective of what party he belongs to, to stand up and say that the Gaeltacht should not have a favourable advantage in the matter of industry.

We must face the fact that we are trying to establish industry in the western regions which are remote and isolated and have bad communications, bad roads, bad telecommunication services; they have all the disadvantages that one could think of and we are trying to overcome these barriers and therefore there must be special concessions available. There should be a grant differential in favour of the Gaeltacht as there has been down the years. This puts the Minister in a very difficult position. I do not want to make it more awkward but I want to say that we on this side of the House will support him if he brings in an amendment on Committee Stage of the Údarás Bill in which he will announce a new deal for the Gaeltacht. The future of the Gaeltacht depends on the creation of jobs because without jobs the people will not stay in the Gaeltacht and without people we will have no Gaeltacht and without a Gaeltacht we will have no language.

We must try to ensure that it will be made possible for the maximum number of people to stay at home and live and work and find a satisfactory livelihood with a decent standard of living in every parish from Donegal to Cork which is designated a Gaeltacht area. If Gaeltarra Eireann now find themselves in the position that they are unable to attract industry and investment to the Gaeltacht what is the point of bringing in an údarás? This makes a mockery of this question and I am very disappointed to see that this situation has arisen because the annual report for 1977, even though it is nearly a year old now, reveals a very satisfactory position and I would not be human if I did not feel a certain sense of pride and satisfaction at the tremendous progress that is revealed there. To put it simply, the fact is that when I came into office in 1973 there were 1,836 people employed in the Gaeltacht and at the end of 1977 the figure was 4,200. We must bear in mind that this was in the middle of a serious world economic recession. In the five-year period from the beginning of 1973 to the end of 1977 employment in the Gaeltacht more than doubled. This is no mean achievement and it reflects very great credit on Gaeltarra Éireann despite any criticism that might be levelled at them.

There is another aspect of the performance of Gaeltarra Éireann during that period which reveals a correspondingly satisfactory situation and that is the traditional industries of tweed and knitwear and so on. The Rannóg Trádala Ghaeltarra Éireann, mar a tugtar orthu, showed an enormous improvement because in 1974 a major reorganisation and restructuring was carried out on the knitwear and tweed division of Gaeltarra. I recall early in 1973 going down to Kilcar to visit the old woollen mills there. I never saw such a horrifying dump as it then was. There was a proposal before the previous Government to have this mill rebuilt and new plant and equipment put in, but it was not approved. At that time we gave the go-ahead and today we have one of the most modern tweed mills in Europe in that place. The traditional trading companies of Gaeltarra Éireann, such as the tweed and knitwear factories, continually returned an annual loss. That was redressed in 1975 and there has been a very substantial increase in the profit since. The annual report for 1977 shows a huge increase in sales, up to £1.39 million, an increase of 45 per cent. Up to 90 per cent of the total production was exported.

There are bound to be difficulties in relation to industrial development in those remote areas. I said the last day that the foundation for a new factory had often to be hewed out of rock, that narrow roads had to be widened, power lines had to be laid and water and sewerage provided. This is a huge job, and people who live in urban areas do not appreciate the difficulty in attracting jobs to those Gaeltacht areas. One can point to this industry and that industry which had problems, but I want to say that during the period of the - world economic recession we doubled employment in the Gaeltacht and converted a loss-making situation in the textile division of tweeds and knitwear into a profit-making situation.

Prior to my time as Minister for the Gaeltacht, particularly when the present Minister for Transport and Tourism was in charge of the Department of the Gaeltacht, there was a strong momentum in relation to job creation in the Gaeltacht. He believed that the provision of jobs was a top priority. It is a pity that we now see the situation where the momentum appears to have gone out of Gaeltacht industrial development and job creation. There is nothing in the Minister's speech to show how the momentum that was there seven years ago can be reactivated again. This side of the House and everyone interested in Gaeltacht development and the welfare of the Gaeltacht must be concerned when they find that this State body are now making frantic appeals to the Government. I am very concerned about this and I am very disappointed that, for the first time in several years, the position in relation to job creation in the Gaeltacht areas appears to have changed.

There is only one way to restore the momentum. This side of the House will support any measure the Minister brings to the House to ensure that the momentum of the Gaeltacht development is restored. Full employment in the Gaeltacht, which must be the basic, fundamental consideration in relation to Gaeltacht development, must be the major objective of any realistic Government policy for Gaeltacht development.

There will be no objection from this side of the House if the Minister comes in tomorrow and says that there will be an increase in the Gaeltacht grants, that the traditional differentials in relation to the Gaeltacht areas will be restored. Unless this is done the Minister will be faced with an impossible task, because the Údarás will be in direct competition with the IDA. During my period as Minister for the Gaeltacht I recall talking to industrialists at home and abroad. Their reaction always was that Belmullet or Cornamona, for instance, were very far from Dublin and there would be enormous ancillary problems in establishing industries in those places, that the roads were bad and that the communications would not be as good as they are in Dublin. We were always able to say that there was this or that incentive, that there was an additional incentive of X, Y or Z for going to those places. Unless the Minister can persuade the Government to recognise this fact, I believe he is faced with an impossible task. That is the reason I have decided to add my voice to Gaeltarra Éireann's appeal yesterday. I did not have to wait until the situation was revealed in the news media because it has been well known for some time past that the momentum had gone out of job creation in the Gaeltacht and that this was largely because the people of the Gaeltacht and development agency, Gaeltarra Éireann, had to compete on equal terms with similar agencies and similar demands for industry in Dublin and large urban centres. Nobody can justify that.

Mar a dúirt mé cheana agus mar a dúirt mé go minic, tá fonn mór ar mhuintir na hÉireann leas na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn. Tá sé sin soiléir ón tuarascáil ar Thaighde um Dhearcadh an Phobail gur mhian le 80 faoin gcéad den phobal cabhair agus cúnamh a thabhairt chun forbairt na Gaeltachta agus leas na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn. Is féidir an rud céanna a rá maidir le Dáil Éireann agus Seanad Éireann nó aon eagras eile. Ach tá imní orainn inniu a fháil amach go bhfuil deacrachtaí nua ag cur isteach ar Ghaeltarra Éireann agus, i ndeireadh na dála, ar an Aire féin. Tá an obair thábhachtach sin níos deacra ná mar a bhí sé riamh. Tá súil agam nuair a thiocfaidh an Triú Céim go mbeidh scéal nua ag an Aire agus go ndéanfaidh sé socraithe oiriúnacha chun go mbeidh Gaeltarra Éireann nó Údarás na Gaeltachta in ann tionscail nua a bhunú sa Ghaeltacht chun fostaíocht a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Mar fhocal scoir, tá súil agam go bhfuil sé mar phríomh-aidhm ag an Aire atá ann anois lán-fhostaíocht a chur ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo. Is oth liom nach bhfuil a lán Gaeilge agam, agus mar sin beidh mé ag caint as Béarla.

Having listened to previous speakers debating this Bill I am very saddened by the fact that they seem to have indicated a complete lack of will to advance the Gaeltacht communities in Ireland. Much criticism has been voiced about the powers of An tÚdarás. Section 9 provides for any additional powers that may be conferred by Government order and this is a prudent arrangement since it would be difficult to specify accurately in advance what would be the powers. The Minister has explained this. By degrees the members of An tÚdarás will be able to see what powers will be required and the Minister will give the necessary powers.

Údarás na Gaeltachta will be established at last and I am pleased that the people of the Gaeltacht will be able to influence the activities of the body. To me the most important part of this Bill is that the people will be democratically elected. The majority of people will be able to influence any decisions to be taken within the specified area.

Perhaps it is a race against time when it comes to preserving the Irish language. Europe and the Community are putting immense pressures on the preservation of the language. The Minister has set before the House a Bill enabling firm action to be taken and I do not see any reason why the move should not be welcomed by all Members.

The previous Government spent a lot of time talking about Údarás na Gaeltchta but what actually came of it? Was it just a phantom Bill that was discussed and bandied about the place, giving hope to people but without any firm commitment? In this instance we have a Bill before the House, and that is the difference. Talk is cheap in this respect and actions will speak louder than words. We have here a commitment by the Minister to take firm action immediately.

The previous speaker referred to the obvious necessity for industry in the Gaeltacht areas and I share his view completely. One of the greatest industries, one that has not been referred to, is the tourism potential that exists in the Gaeltacht areas. There has been the practice, certainly in Dublin, that parents send their children to the Gaeltacht areas to learn the language, but I should like to see a greater emphasis placed on family commitment to the Irish language. Why not invite families on their holidays to the Gaeltacht, rather than adopting this Irish college for children approach? An enormous advance in the language could take place if there was greater emphasis on family holidays in the Gaeltacht.

We have witnessed the death of a Gaeltacht area in our lifetime; I refer to the Cooley peninsula area near Omeath and Carlingford. Perhaps it is more geographically isolated than the main Gaeltacht areas west of the Shannon, but nevertheless it is an example of what can happen. If the investment is in people to speak Irish, and to bring them to the Gaeltacht areas on family holidays, the spin-off for job creation would be tremendous. I should also like the idea of an "Irish Day" being encouraged in order to promote more active family participation in the Irish language. Children are being taught Irish in school but the parents are remote from participating with them. If the Gaeltacht sets the example, using this Bill as the foundation, this could be the starting point for a tremendous advance in the preservation and the future encouragement of the spoken tongue.

Much has been said about what could be done and about Bills to be produced, but here we have at last a Bill that will be the framework for any future powers that will be needed by the people of the Gaeltacht. These are the people who will have the say, who will come forward with ideas. They will be democratically elected and will be known to the people of the area. There will not be any sense of remoteness or separatism but there will be a complete understanding because those participating will be elected in the areas in question.

There are a couple of issues to which I would like to refer. One relates to the sense of confusion that existed in the Gaeltacht where people were not sure of the direction in which they were being taken. With this Bill they will have a signpost. It is a question now of getting down to the hard work involved but at last they have been presented with a framework that will give them every encouragement possible.

I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without referring to a point of view that I have shared. Perhaps there is a lost generation in the matter of Irish speakers, those people who came through their leaving certificate or matriculation examinations and who rapidly lost the use of the Irish language. Perhaps a case could be made in some respects for a return to the Celtic form of lettering when presenting the Irish language. Maybe the change-over was to facilitate the printers or the typewriting companies but many people have found the change-over to the English script very difficult. I should like the Minister to give some thought to investigating the situation, to see if a case could be made for a return in certain areas to the Celtic script in the Irish language.

I welcome the Bill. It will provide the framework that is necessary for the people of the Gaeltacht. It has given new hope and a new sense of provide. It will give great encouragement to advance the language and a greater awareness at the time to be placed on families to come into the Gaeltacht area. The interaction that will take place in families will make or break the Gaeltacht. Go raibh maith agat.

Ni minic a bhíonn seans againn sa Teach seo ceist na teanga a phlé agus dá bhrí sin cuirimse fáilte roimh an díospóireacht seo. Tá súil agam go mbainfidh an tAire amach gach cuspóir atá ina aigne aige i leith na teanga agus i leith an Udaráis. Tá brón orm, áfach, nach bhfuil an iomad sa mBille seo agus tá imní orm nach mbeidh ann, mar adúirt duine eile, ach mála gaoithe. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé beagáinin crua é sin a rá, ach táimíd ag caint mar gheall ar athbheochaint na Gaeilge agus ní fheícim sa mBille seo mórán a bhaineann leis sin. Baineann an Bille seo le muintir na Gaeltachta, agus dúirt muintir Fhianna Fáil go dtabharfadh siad daonlathas do mhuintir na Gaeltachta, agus is é an peaca is mó a rinne siad ná a rá go bhfuil udarás daonlathach tugtha. Ag léamh an Bhille seo tá sé an-soiléir nach bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Rialtas am ar bith Údarás daonlathach a thabhairt do muintir na Gaeltachta. Is mór an chúis bróin é sin.

Is dual do fhormhór mhuintir na hÉireann, idir fhir agus mhná, cion a bheith acu ar an nGaeilge. Is léir dóibh a tábhacht don náisiún. Is í teanga shinsearach furmhór ár ndaoine agus tá si fós ina teanga dhúchais ag cuid mhaith díobh. Tá sí á labhairt sa tír seo ó thús na ré in a bhfuil cúntas staire againn di. Is intí a léirítear mórán dár gcultúr agus ár saíocht ach d'féadfadh a lán dár gcultúr, an grá agus an t-ómós don Ghaeilge, bheith ar bheagán brí mura dtéann s i bhfeidhm ar an bpobal i gcoitinne.

Dá bhrí sin is cuí go ndéanfaí iarracht anseo a léiriú athuair na príomhcúiseanna a bhfuil tábhacht le Gaeilge do náisiúntacht na hÉireann. Is fíor go bhfuil grá ag gach éinne sa tír seo dá theanga. Nil a lán daoine sásta go bhfuil ar a gcumas an Ghaeilge a labhairt chomh liofa agus ba mhaith leo ach, mar sin féin, leis na blianta tá iarracht á dhéanamh ag na daoine an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim. Theip ar an iarracht sin ach níor theip ar fad air. Is í an Ghaeilge an comhartha is suntasaí ar an náisiúntacht. Bhí baint an mhór ag an idéalachas a mhúscail gluaiseacht na Gaeilge leis an staid ina bhfuilimid anois mar Stát neamhspleách. Teastaíonn an t-idéalachas sin uainn chomh mór agus a theastaigh sé riamh. Tá sé thar a bheith riachtanach do Stát bheag a thraidisiún náisiúnta a chaomhnú, a dhearcadh neamhspleách a neartú agus a chomharthaí aitheantais a choimeád slán.

Rud an-tábhachtach i leith na teanga ná an aidhm ba cheart a bheith againn go léir jobanna a chur ar fáil. Thuigfeadh aon Rialtas go maith nach mbeadh aon tsuim ag muintir Ghaeltachta in Údarás go bunúsach fhad agus a bhí a bhfurmhór dífhostaithe agus ar an dole. Is fíor gur thuig an t-IarAire Ó Domhnaill é sin. Dúirt sé é sin go minic.

Ag cur ceist an daonlathais ar leataobh—agus cuimhnigh gurb é polasaí Páirtí Fhine Gael go mbeadh sé lán-daonlathach—céard a bhí ar bun ag Aire na Gaeltachta le bliain go leith anuas ag cur an Bhille seo os comhaír na Dála. An raibh sé ag ceapadh go bhfáilteofaí roimh Bille mar seo? Ar ndóigh níl mórán cumhachta ag an Údarás. Céard a bhí ar siúl ag an Aire le 18 mí anuas? Níl mórán le feiceáil sa mBille seo.

Is mór an áis dúinn eolas a bheith againn ar ár dteanga náisiúnta agus fhios a bheith againn ar an cion atá déanta ar son na hÉireann ag an munitir a chuaigh romhainn, agus atá á dhéanamh anois ag fir agus mná na hÉireann chun leasa an chine daonna idir shaolta agus spioradálta. Is údar nirt do dhuine é a bhraith go mbaineann sé le pobal a bhfuil ceangal beo acu i dtraidisiún lena sinsear rompu. An tÉireannach a bhfuil foghlaim air agus atá eolach ar an nGaeilge agus a úsáideann í is fearr a thabharfaí faoi ndeara ina thaobh gur saoránach de náisiún stairiúil é agus gur duine ar leith é.

I have no doubt that the few faltering words I tried to utter in our teanga náisiúnta indicate that I am not as practised as I should like to be. When I say that, I am sure I echo the words of many Deputies.

The Bill is a symbol of the national struggle to revive and to keep in good health a language to which we are all loyal and for which we have great affection and love, a language which has stood us in good stead in many ways and which is of importance at present in view of the increasing pressure on our culture from all sides. Much of the culturalisation process is good and some of it is dubious. Language is a primary facet of culture and helps us to retain a sense of independence and a sense of our identity. It would be tragic if it was drowned in something that is totally alien to us.

We all recall the dusty days in classrooms when well-meaning teachers under well-meaning Departments of Education tried to drum into us a knowledge of the language. We are painfully aware also that the success which attended those efforts was not as great as it could have been. I am sure many of us remember mornings at school when we stood to say our prayers as Gaeilge without understanding a word of what we were saying. I remember learning history, geography and other subjects through Irish. Having changed schools I remember that I was able to give an interesting and hilarious lesson to my new teacher who did not know any Irish on facets of Euclidean geometry. But I was able to do it only as Gaeilge. The teacher did not understand any Irish and he could only take my word that I understood the theories I was putting forward. I understood them but I could not explain them in English and nobody else could understand me. In my case it did not make for what might be called progressive educational development. It is sad that the years we spent in school were substantially wasted—not totally wasted because the language effort helped us in many ways. Some of us managed to conserve a little of what we learned.

In introducing this Bill it appears to me that the Minister is sincere, wishing genuinely to bring about progress and to introduce enlightened reform in the areas under his jurisdiction. This Bill constitutes an effort to facilitate the running of Gaeltacht areas, no doubt ultimately with a view to ensuring that the language survives and prospers. If we are successfully to attend to the problems of the development of our language—particularly in the context of the EEC and the growing internationalisation of our culture—then we must endeavour to get to the roots of the reason why languages change and fade. To my knowledge we have never done that in a realistic way. If we ask ourselves why we have at present what somebody described as being basically the ruins of a language——

I hate interrupting the Deputy on this important subject. We are really only dealing with the Gaeltachtaí in this Bill and not the revival of the language. We dealt with the full revival of the language and all that matter in the Bord na Gaeilge Bill. This Bill deals only with the development of the Gaeltachtaí, the establishment of a new údarás and so on. I do not like interrupting the Deputy but, if I do not, I will have a dozen people contributing on the same lines.

Provided the speaker relates the subject to the Bill.

Yes, to the Gaeltachtaí.

I will bear that in mind. If we are successfully to run Gaeltacht areas and, therefore, revive and renourish a language which is, to say the least, ailing somewhat then it is important that we understand why some languages succeed and others do not. Otherwise all we are doing is providing an apparent solution without having analysed the disease which caused the first ailment. Seán de Fréine, in his well-known work The Great Silence, says that the most probable explanation of language changes is, in a nutshell, that when people change their language they do so not because it is insufficient for their needs but because their society is insufficient. Here we have a clear indication of what is the problem with regard to Gaeltacht areas for a start. I hope that the momentum provided by the previous Minister, which was one of his constant themes, will be taken up by the present Minister and Government in the context of this Bill and otherwise, that is, to provide a healthy, economic infrastructure in which people will want to live and remain. Unfortunately at present the picture is not that healthy. There is a substantial flight from the land, from those areas and the language suffers as a result.

Ostensibly the Bill is about a Gaeltacht authority but, in reality, it is about much deeper issues fundamental to which are the well-being and revival of the language. It would be fair to say that if governments—and if I may say so, particularly Fianna Fáil Governments traditionally—laid great emphasis on the twin aims of revival of the Irish language and the reunification of our country, they have very largely failed, and the reasons have not been fully analysed. One of the reasons may be that we have accepted the concept of the Gaeltacht as being the catalyst which would revive our language. The time has come to question that attitude. Language is much more than a means of communication. For example, I do not think one can departmentalise a language; one cannot say that Irish resides in a certain reservation; we will bring it to a peak in those areas, polish it up, blow the dust off it every now and again and keep it alive and well.

Language is fundamentally much more than a means of communication. It is an intrinsic part of social intercourse, a mode of expressing cultural values and norms in the day-to-day lives of people. For example, I ask myself: Why is it that the Gaeltacht invariably is associated, on the one hand, with the Irish language and efforts for its revival but, on the other, also in the public mind with relative deprivation, poverty, hardship, joblessness, wives who are deserted half the year because their husbands are working in Manchester or anywhere else where they do not use the language? Why should we accept that the language is part of an old culture which we are psychologically allowing to die? Why is there very little emphasis placed on the many Irish-speaking families living in urban areas? I understand that there are of the order of up to 10,000 households in Dublin city alone where Irish can be and is spoken. There is never one word about these people. They are not considered to be part of any Gaeltacht. They are not the beneficiaries of any deontasaí or of an attitude which encourages financial inducements for Irish language achievements.

But I am not suggesting that this is the best way of doing it either. Perhaps the traditional, geographic and, indeed, socio-economic parameters we have always applied to the Gaeltacht should be reconsidered. It is anomalous that people who live in the Gaeltacht—who often through no choice of their own but by virtue of their place of birth and by tradition speak Irish—somehow are seen to be people in whom there should be more Government interest, if you like, more Government patriarchy, than in people in towns and cities who go about their jobs, rear their families, who also love their language, who can speak it and want to speak it but who are rarely given a chance, encouragement or inducement to do so. Indeed, the pressures on these people are far greater than those on people in Gaeltacht areas where the daily concourse is often transmitted to the Irish language. But the Irish-speaking families in Dublin, Cork, Waterford or Limerick—what encouragement or inducement do they get? I venture to suggest that if a study were undertaken of the number of these Irish-speaking families, they would outnumber families in the Gaeltacht areas.

The Deputy is getting away from the whole purpose of the Bill.

The Bill is about establishing a Gaeltacht authority.

It deals with the Gaeltachtaí and their development and everything concerned with them but it does not deal with the revival of the language in Dublin and other cities, unless the Deputy is trying to suggest that we should make Dublin a Gaeltacht area. I am sure he is not.

I was about to say that we should consider what constitutes a Gaeltacht. I see no reason why a body of people of 7,000 families could not reasonably be considered to be a Gaeltacht. I admit that we cannot draw a geographical border or perimeter for such an area but if we are to be concerned genuinely with fostering the Irish language I do not see why the people in these areas should not have the same social, political and constitutional rights as anybody else if it is their desire to have the language fostered and encouraged by the State. Perhaps we could have Gaeltacht membership for such areas in which we have people, families, who could enrol and insist on their affection for the language as being the hallmark of the way in which they will raise their children and that that would be recognised accordingly in the State's attitude.

Instead, what have we got? Essentially, we have the Irish language either being spoken by people in the Gaeltacht who had little choice because that was the language of their people, their peers or as an extra language for people who in many cases are of a particular social class. For some time, unfortunately, it has been seen to be the language of elitist groups in some respects. Anybody who travels through Dublin or other urban centres can see English roadsigns crossed out and the Irish version being left. My point is that we should reconsider our basic attitudes to the Irish language and consider ways and means of having Gaeltacht districts in urban areas. They are the areas where the vast majority of our people are and will be in the future.

There is no reason for despair about the state of the language if we go about it in the proper way. The languages of Europe are prospering and they are doing so without the type of Gaeltacht approach we have here. Surely one of the secrets about the proper transmission or the teaching of a language is the manner in which it is imparted to young people in the schools and to the not-so-young outside the school. Irish was always taught and is being taught still largely as a dead language, a language which is not intrinsic, which is not relevant to the day to day lives of the people but which is an extra skill grafted on, something that it is nice to have but which is not seen to be fundamentally useful or relevant. That is something we must bear in mind.

Because this Bill does not deal in the widest sense with language revival I do not intend to go into that aspect in great detail except to say that it is fundamental to reconsider the way in which we have transmitted the language traditionally. We should ask ourselves in certain areas is it inherently defective in some way? Could that be one of the reasons why it is ailing? I do not think the language is ailing. People ask how the language can match the new technology of the age, how can new terms be invented, and so on? Of course the truth is that this is a problem facing all languages. Words such as "television", "transistor", "computer" and so on have to be invented in all languages, not alone Irish. It is clear that the language here is not necessarily inherently defective. I will quote further from Seán de Fréine:

The theory that languages die because they are defective does not take account of the loss of German in Spain or of French in Germany (to which reference has already been made), whereas other less developed languages like Basque and Wendish have survived in Spain and Germany respectively. It does not explain why the Albanian-speaking colonies in the south of Italy have, by and large, been more successful in retaining their languages than their Greek-speaking neighbours.

The truth is that the language here is in no way defective but the way in which it has been handled and transmitted for decades has put it in a weak position. It is not seen as being central to our lifestyle, to the way we live. Instead, it has been taught in our schools in a way which does not help the prospect of it remaining alive and well.

I say that this language which has helped us over the centuries is alive and well, though ailing. For that a great debt of gratitude is owed to the Irish language organisations and associations, the many groups who often with very little State encouragement, particularly in relation to the publishing of books and texts, have done such a marvellous job to keep the language as a central part of the stage of Irish life. A lot of success of the revival movement is attributable to these organisations.

The language always has been used traditionally as a political weapon and a cultural weapon by the Irish people. It is still useful for some of our ambassadors—I do not mean our diplomatic corps—when they go abroad. The Údarás obviously will be a small step in the right direction, but one gets the impression from the debate on the Bill and on the authority proposed by the Minister that it may be a little more than a sop to mollify certain ginger groups in the Gaeltacht. I should have preferred a much more comprehensive Bill, incorporating a much more radical approach to the need for major social and economic improvements in Gaeltacht areas as the cornerstone of any attempt to revive the language.

For instance, I do not see any reason why the Bill could not have been used as an instrument to extend the scope and the well-being of the language outside the narrowly-defined geographic areas at present described as Gaeltachtaí. There are many paradoxes attached to these. It is difficult for a person living in a city to understand why living a few miles on one side of a land should be the reason as to why a person would or would not get a grant for his home. All these things should have been looked at but they are not in the Bill. I am worried because we do not often get opportunities to discuss issues of this kind and it is my belief that in the lifetime of this Dáil the Minister will not get another opportunity like he now has to incorporate more radical and comprehensive provisions in a Bill.

I suggest the Bill should have gone much further that it has gone. The media, the Irish language organisations, the various publications in Irish have all helped and they are increasingly aware of the need to compete. RTE in two programmes, "Buntús Cainte" and "Trom agus Éadtrom" have taken major steps forward. The significance of the programme so ably handed and presented by Liam Ó Murchú is that for the first time ever people such as myself have been presented, people who are not experts in the language. They have been encouraged to speak the few words of Irish they have and to realise that if the Irish word does not come immediately to mind an English one will suffice.

I believe that attitude will be with us for a long time to come. I reject, as fundamentally opposed to the welfare of the Irish language, the old, extremist, purist approach that if you are not an expert you should not speak the language. I appreciate that the new, more casual approach may be somewhat offensive to purists but I ask them to accept that more people speaking the language, even if not speaking it very well, is much better than a very small number speaking the language perfectly but only among themselves and the language going nowhere in the ultimate when these people die out.

I therefore think this type of programme is marvellous and has done great good. Much more could be done now that we have two national networks. The possibility of transmitting popular plays and films perhaps with Irish dialogue superimposed, perhaps even running English subtitles to balance it, could be considered. There are many possibilities and there are people better than I am at coming to terms with them. We need to employ modern technology and methods of teaching and so on to ensure that the language lives and we must reject the old conservationist approach which would seek to keep the language to small reservations not only of our country geographically but of our minds psychologically.

Language if it is to live and be meaningful should be part of our daily living. It is not so at present and more is the pity. The need to broaden our approach to language teaching has been very widely accepted and in a book called "The Gaelic League Idea" Tomás Ó Fiach said now that the smoke of battle raised by the great linguistic controversies of the past has died down one may ask the question if they perhaps focused too much attention on the educational institutions as the places where the cause of the language would be won or lost. I think what he implied by that and says further on is that at present we concern ourselves with education in the schools and very little elsewhere. The home is obviously the area in which we should strive to inculcate love of the language. Not a great deal is being done in that regard because the national psyche dictates that as long as we have a Gaeltacht the language is alive over there in the west—barring the Meath Gaeltacht of course. It is something we need not worry about as it is being looked after.

More attention must be directed to broadening the concept of the Gaeltacht, to getting across to people that the language and its survival are important and not just a question of people along the west coast in some ill-defined geographic area but something for which all of us have responsibility. I hope the new Gaeltacht authority will be able to do some thinking about this and perhaps come up with some suggestions and recommendations about possibilities for language improvement and development outside the narrow geographic confines which at present restrict them.

I am also aware that the statistics available show that despite the regular platitudinous tributes from. I suppose, all sides of the political and social spectrum there is no cause for complacency. A study carried out by the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies reckoned in 1951 that no more than 35,000 people used Irish as their ordinary medium of speech and no more than 3,000 were ignorant of English—in other words English was gradually supplanting and replacing Irish as the main language for many people. I firmly believe that both languages can co-exist. It is vital that everybody should have a thorough and expert knowledge of English but also it would be a great loss and a national tragedy if the Irish language were allowed to die. It may sound almost blasphemous but I wonder to what extent the traditionally accepted concept of a Gaeltacht may form some of the reason why the vast majority of the population outside the Gaeltacht feel they no longer have any responsibility to encourage the language.

I am aware of the great work carried out by bodies like Gael Linn and all the other language organisations. I hope the Minister will have every success in persuading his colleagues to give extra attention, extra finance and extra help in every possible way to these organisations. I know the Minister would want that. Recently Donal Ó Mórain of Gael Linn asked for a new deal for the Irish language. I support him in that but the new deal should embody more than merely sums of money. It should embody new structures and rethinking particularly about people living outside the Gaeltacht who have an equal right to a share in the revival of the language because up to now these people have been very largely ignored.

For example, a special attempt should be made to get Irish language teaching reviewed and reformed, to get much more of the contents of the media transmitted in or through Irish. This can now be done without offence to the English speaking population because we have two national networks. I trust that potential will not be lost on the Minister. I do not suggest, and I think it would do great damage to the language, that Irish should now be rammed down the throats of people who are cool about it and do not want to know any more about it. They have that right. There is, always was and, I expect, always will be a basic feeling of benevolence towards the language on the part of Irish people everywhere. A survey asking people about their attitude towards the revival of the language and its welfare showed that the vast majority of people would like to see the Irish language again a spoken language. They did not mean that it should ever replace the English language as being perhaps the normal spoken language, the normal method of discourse but certainly the benevolence and the will are there. Therefore, any Government measure designed to induce progress in these areas will obviously be welcomed very widely. We should get away from the idea of the language being elitist or conservationist in relation to Gaeltacht areas. If we do that we shall come a long way.

It is very regrettable that in the case of many of us who spent years in school being taught the Irish language as we were taught Latin, being able to tell the gender of nouns, decline individual words and so on, all of this went in one ear and out of both. It was not an enlightened teaching method. One learns about these things too late, I suppose. I do not know if more enlightened methods could have been used then but it is certainly tragic that so many years' works produced so little in the end when there is such great benevolence towards the language and so many people wish to speak it.

From the time the Minister for the Gaeltacht took office he has exuded sincerity and genuineness in his efforts to do well for the Gaeltacht and the Irish language. One is considerably heartened because I have no doubt he would be first to admit that this tradition was handed on to him by the previous Minister whose hard work for the Gaeltacht and the language cannot be questioned. The emphasis the former Minister placed on having a healthy economic base is fundamental. One cannot expect young people today, lured as they are by the bright lights and busy streets, to confine themselves to a way of life and deprivation in terms of social amenities and outlets which nobody else would tolerate and at the same time pin on them our hopes for the future of the language. It will not work and is not working. It is too much to expect young people to remain in these areas. There is only one way to do it and that is to have a national redevelopment plan which will ensure that these Gaeltacht areas are healthy areas from the point of view of job creation, social and recreational environment, areas where people would want to remain and where people from urban areas becoming increasingly congested, unattractive and blighted will want to go. It is a long time since I met a young man or woman in this city who voiced an ambition to go to a Gaeltacht area. Those who normally want to go there are at the upper end of the social and economic scale who can afford a second home in the Gaeltacht where they can spend long weekends, or who have managed to make a total break with the problems of urban living and go to the Gaeltacht in order to farm and to spend the rest of their lives there. Generally speaking such people are the exception.

It is most unfortunate that we do not have a much more balanced regional approach to industry, to the spread of towns and to the creation and development of an environment in these areas where young people would want to go. If the new authority pay attention to the need for this and do everything possible to ensure that every incentive is given, not merely in terms of job creation—which is important—but also in insisting on certain minimum standards of amenities and recreational and social outlets for people in these areas, their efforts may be crowned with success. However, fundamentally I am uneasy about any measure which seeks to pin all our hopes for the future of the language on geographic regions. A language cannot be geographically delineated; it does not lend itself to that type of approach. We should reconsider our traditional thinking in this regard.

I am aware that there are families living in suburban Dublin, Waterford and Cork who want to see the language doing well, but who are surrounded by English-speaking families and who hear no interest expressed by anybody in encouraging the use of that language. They feel that every effort and thought about language revival is focused on the Gaeltacht in some area that is far removed from their day-to-day life. We must do some rethinking here; it is not satisfactory, particularly when there are so many families who speak the language and speak it well. I would appreciate if the Minister would do some thinking on this before he replies.

I wish the Minister well. I am unhappy that the Bill did not go further but that is the perennial unhappiness of Opposition parties. Maybe the Minister has good reasons why the Bill could not go further. I wish the Bill every success and I have no doubt that the Minister is pushing an open door whenever he wishes to introduce in this House measures which seek to foster the love and well-being of our native tongue. I see this Bill as a symbol of that fight. I hope it is successful from that point of view.

Ba mhaith liomsa cúpla focal a rá ar an mBille seo. Ba mhaith liom freisin fáilte a chur roimh an Údarás. Mar adúirt an tAire, tá cuid mhaith ráite i dtaobh Údarás den chinéal seo le seacht mbliana anuas agus is cúis mhór áthais dúinn go léir go bhfuil an Bhille seo os comhair na Dála inniú. Is é cuspóir an Bhille seo ná Udarás na Gaeltachta a bhunú chun an Gaeilge a chur chun cinn mar phríomh-theanga sa Ghaeltacht agus forbairt na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn freisin ó thaobh geilleagair agus cultúir. Ba mhaith liom freisin buíochas a thabhairt dona daoine a d'ullmhaigh an tuarascáil speisialta Gníomh don Ghaeltacht inar moladh Údarás na Gaeltachta a bhunú.

This Bill is important not only for the Gaeltacht but for the whole country. We all support the development of the Gaeltacht areas. We believe that the standard of living within those areas must be raised and we support any measures to improve the lot of the people living there.

Tourism in those areas has a major part to play in the life of the country. Various Gaeltacht areas are also of great importance to our city dwellers. I would like to say "Thank you" to daoine na Gaeltachta on behalf of the many children who have been hosted by them over recent years, particularly in the summer programmes. In that connection I would like to see more comprehensive development of the recreational and other facilities within the Gaeltacht for students visiting these areas with the object of learning the language, particularly during the summer period. An tÚdarás should consider this. It is something which is happening not only here but in other countries also. We will see some very interesting developments in this respect in relation to language development and learning generally, particularly in the city of Dublin.

When will the debate on this Bill be resumed?

We will be taking another Bill at 3.30 p.m. The Chair is not certain how long that will take but this Bill will be resumed after the other Bill finishes.

Cuireadh an diospóireacht ar athló.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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