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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1978

Vol. 310 No. 9

Adjournment of Dáil: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Dáil at its rising this week do adjourn for the Christmas Recess until 31 January 1979.
—(The Taoiseach.)

As we are debating this situation prior to the adjournment the net point involved in the course of my remarks and some interjections was the situation concerning Ireland going ahead on her social and economic development programme on her own and the disadvantages involved in being tied irretrievably and forever to a sterling link which I tried to show had already developed in a very alarming way as far as our public finances are concerned. I referred to Table 7 of section 2 of the statistical appendix of the autumn 1978 Central Bank Report to bear out my point that already in the current year we are facing a situation where £252 million external debt incurred by State-sponsored bodies had already appreciated to £310 million by reason of sterling depreciation. There is a specific note on that page of the Central Bank Report stating that these particular exchange rate changes vis-à-vis sterling have to be taken into account in regard to loans incurred outside of the sterling area. Most of those loans were incurred by the previous Government. We are already incurring a 20 per cent loss in respect of existing non-sterling loan credits.

This is an on-going situation which can disappear within an EMS situation, where we are on the basis of being within a basket of currencies which are stable from the monetary point of view and do not put up interest charges in that respect. Let me give a practical example which brings this down from the esoteric financial banking level to a practical level. The recent increase in mortgage rates can be attributed directly to our link with sterling because when the Bank of England rate rose we automatically had to increase our mortgage rates so far as the building societies are concerned. This has applied across the board over the years, whether in regard to building societies, banks or any lending agencies in Ireland.

I quoted from today's Financial Times already. They stated in this respect that the automatic fact is that sterling borrowing has to be dear borrowing because people will not lend to sterling countries unless they lend dear. They have to lend dear because of the actual position of sterling as a currency in world markets. It can be quite clearly seen from today's Financial Times the sort of situation which operates in regard to forward borrowing against sterling in regard to the major currencies in the world. If one is talking in regard to the Yen it is 10.9 per cent and in regard to the Deutschmark it is 9.27 per cent. That, basically, is the problem of staying forever with sterling. I believe it is very important, provided the terms are right, for us to get out of this cul-de-sac situation where we are locked in with a currency and a country which are not performing. The matter is as simple and straightforward as that.

This, however, involves very real problems so far as we are concerned. Will we rise to the challenge of moving into a new currency system that will undoubtedly demand disciplines and a sense of responsibility which heretofore have not been exercised within the UK and which, unfortunately, due to the influence of television and of Britain generally in regard to our island, have been followed to a certain degree here? Can we really break from Britain to the fullest extent? We have broken from Britain in the sense of political independence and we are, hopefully, breaking from Britain since we entered the EEC. We are now, hopefully, breaking from Britain to a greater extent in regard to entering an economic and monetary union system with other countries in Europe. Can we break to the fullest extent by ignoring the bad habits of management ownership, of the maverick people in the trade union movement in Britain and the bad habits of socialists in Britain who are tied to an ideology that has no relevance to this country's needs and requirements? It will be our challenge in the immediate months and years ahead to ignore Britain's bad habits which are unfortunately influencing our people.

Such as?

I have spelt them out reasonably well but I can spell them out very practically. It is a belief that merely money increases in terms of formal increases in pay, salary and profits mean something when they do not mean anything. The British people have been gulled by successive Governments since the war. They have sold their people, by reason of inflation, the idea that sterling is sound and that paper increases in salaries and wages in sterling mean something, but they mean nothing.

That policy was started by Fianna Fáil in the 1964 by-elections.

I am not talking about 1964. I am talking about today's realities, which are that we are seeking to enter a system, for which we are well qualified because of the figures I mentioned earlier, where we have had a 7 per cent growth rate increase this year and last year, the highest not alone within the community but within all OECD countries, including Japan and the USA.

Are we going in?

We are well equipped to go in and have had the growth rate achievements and the employment target achievements to go in. All that is required is that all of us exercise a sense of responsibility, which starts here. I would like the Fine Gael Party—I believe the Labour Party are doing it—to join with me in applying themselves to the degree of responsibility which is important in achieving what we must do in this new situation because of being tied to a basket of currencies——

But according to the Government we are not going in.

——and to a European union situation. We will then have to think in very practical terms about our contribution nationally to that endeavour.

But the Government have decided that we are not going in.

We have told the Deputy that.

Up to now we have had a remarkably quiet day and perhaps we might keep it that way.

The Deputy does not understand what is going on. For his elucidation I would remind him that, as the Taoiseach has said, talks are continuing with our partners in the Community on this whole matter and decisions are being taken by the Government who were elected by the people. The decisions will not be taken by people who were not elected to govern.

Will the House have an opportunity of considering the matter?

The democratic wish of the Irish people is that the Government who are elected take the decisions.

Therefore, Parliament is to be ignored.

There was a full debate yesterday on this matter and I am referring to it now incidentally because it is fundamental to our progress as a nation in the economic and social sense. It is very important that we stabilise prices and control inflation. We have succeeded in bringing down inflation from a level of 21 per cent during the period of the Coalition to a 7 to 8 per cent level, but we must bring it down further to a 3 to 4 per cent level. We must reduce interest rates because these are far too high and are hurting both existing and prospective mortgage raisers in respect of houses. The reason for these very high rates is our link with sterling. In the sterling money market the building societies cannot raise the money that is necessary because of inflation in interest rates. Therefore, regardless of whether the inflation relates to prices or to interest rates our fundamental problem is that since the war we have been tied to the inflation chariot of Britain. Since the war successive British Governments and particularly socialist Governments, have led Britain into an abyss, to the bottom, by reason of continuing policies of inflation and of depreciation of sterling in a very blatant effort to con the British people.

We have been brought along in the wake of that chariot but what first saved our community from going into that situation was the EEC into which Fianna Fáil as a Government succeeded in bringing Ireland on 1 January 1973. By reason of our membership we secured guaranteed outlets and price structures for our agricultural produce and for our processed agricultural produce. Consequently, we have been able to earn the foreign exchange and to develop that section of our industry to the extent that the whole country has been made viable as an investment country and as a country in which confidence reposes. A classic example of that is that our external reserves have increased beyond the £150 million balance of payments deficit of last year so that we could carry easily the balance of payments deficit incurred this year.

The next step must be, assuming the terms are favourable, an association with other currencies, an association that would ensure an availability to us of money at much lower interest rates than has been the case up to now, because in the past we had to borrow money in non-sterling areas at rates that go against sterling. For instance, in regard to the Deutsche Mark we have substantial loans already at the rate of 9.27 per cent. Therefore, whether we borrow in sterling or in non-sterling, our membership of sterling militates severely against us because of having to borrow at inflated rates. As a result, the consumer is affected not only by ordinary prices but by the cost of borrowing money. Money is a commodity. Whether we are buying goods in the shop or borrowing money we are subject to the inflation rate of sterling which has been predetermined since the war by irresponsible British Governments in order to con their own people and to sell to them the idea that Britain won a war, which, in fact, she lost.

We must get away entirely from that type of situation and realise that we have the skills, the abilities, the educational and training systems to guarantee that Irish men and women and our young boys and girls can practice in a skilled way in the factories of the future. All of the IDA information now furnished to the Government is precisely on those lines. North American industry in particular is coming to Ireland, which is an attractive base for Europe within the Community. These industries are coming here because Irish labour is intelligent, educated, well trained and adaptable. We have the skills and the ability to attract the type of industry that can make use of modern technology. Our people can participate in the highly-paid type jobs such as those in the electronics, computer, and light engineering industries, industries that are non-pollutant, which have a high wage structure but which are dependent on a skilled labour input.

That is where our future lies. In that context I wish to emphasise one point again, that is, that the re-equipment necessary for industry in Ireland today and the investment needed for expansion depends on the availability of low-interest credit facilities. So long as we are in a situation of fluctuating exchange rates and of high interest sterling rates we cannot get the money at the right rate for the expansion required for industry. What industry needs more than anything else today is a stability of interest rates. That applies throughout the Community, because in such circumstances management can plan ahead on the basis that there will not be fluctuations in regard to whatever credits they must obtain in order to re-equip and extend their factories. This is a very practical reason for stability in regard to the whole currency and interest rate situation.

The most important thing for everyone to remember is that if we are to succeed we must forget about internal party policies and about class rows within the Community at least for the next 12 to 18 months. At the time of the next general election there will be plenty of opportunities to fight the issue of whether the Government have succeeded. I would say particularly to trade unions, to employers and to the other political parties that we are at a very serious juncture, possibly the most serious juncture in terms of our national affairs since the foundation of the State. In that situation it is of vital importance that there be a sense of discipline and of responsibility as a nation. We want an example from everybody of practical patriotism, because unless we have that we shall not succeed. No arrangement, either within or without a currency basket, will work during the next couple of years unless we all exercise a sense of discipline and responsibility and acknowledge that for the next 12 to 18 months what counts is not a particular group, a trade union or an employers' association, but Ireland.

In a debate of this kind it is fair and appropriate that we examine what has been taking place, the policies of the Government in power and the results, as far as we can judge them, of these policies. The policy of the Fianna Fáil Party since they were returned to power has been a very unsocial one from the point of view of the poor and the less well off in our society. I was interested to hear the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry practically saying now that our tie with the British currency has been the cause of all our inflation and of the rise in loans up to now and how things have been bad in England. Fianna Fáil have the happy knack of blaming somebody else when they are in trouble themselves.

The Deputy's party were not there a year and a half ago; we were there for the last 50 years.

It is what the Government do now and what they have done in the last 18 months that counts. The Minister should not be talking about what happened over the last 50 years. I could go back some of that time and examine his Government's policies in that time. It seems that the Minister was saying—and he did not deny it before he left the House—that all our troubles were bound up in the basket of currencies to which we were attached and that if we could get away from that we would be all right once and for all. No one can take that kind of talk, even from a Minister, very seriously. That is the kind of talk we heard a year and a half ago from him and his party when they were fighting an election campaign. We talked about the increases in the cost of living, and they paraded the country and on television with a thing known as the shopping basket. I respectfully ask the people who were conned by that gimmickry to have a look at that shopping basket now. We are still under the same monetary system and our shopping basket is in a very bad state. There have been very substantial increases in the price of cheese as a direct result of Government action in removing the subsidy during that period. There has been a substantial increase in bread prices, butter prices and sugar prices, all of which items were in the shopping basket. As to the price of meat—I need say no more about this. Fianna Fáil said: "Look at the prices of the contents of this basket". If the people took a look at that basket now they would realise that during the time since this great manifesto was issued, the great Fianna Fáil administration have introduced inflation all over the place. These foods were the principal items in the diet of the poor and the prices have been increased by 12 per cent to 14 per cent under the same monetary system or currency or whatever Fianna Fáil like to call it. These increases are on top of others which Fianna Fáil complained about. I stress that.

I go to another area where they won many supporters by their manifesto, and it is legitimate and correct that we now examine their performance after 18 months. I speak of housing. They told us how easy it was going to be for people to build their own house under a Fianna Fáil Government. They said that they would give a £1,000 grant and they would increase the income limits for local authority loans. They said that there would be more money available from building societies and so on and that it would be far easier for everybody to own a house. We know what happened. We do not deny that they increased the income limit and they gave the £1,000 grant to first-time owners. But we also know, and it has been admitted in this House by Ministers, that the price of that house increased by 33½ per cent. It has been stated recently, and I do not doubt the people who stated it, that the greater part of the blame for this increase must be borne by the Government because they created a false impression in the minds of people who thought that now they could buy their houses for which they had been struggling for so long. Of course the immediate reaction was that the price of houses went up and the grant and the loan structure became irrelevant.

Then the Government proceeded to issue to local authorities a circular saying that we should reappraise the people for whom we should build local authority houses, that we should take their income into account and examine the matter carefully to see if they were able to build houses for themselves. I want to talk about the predicament in which the county manager of Kildare, in my consitituency, finds himself. The Government have said "You can loan an applicant £9,000 now but there is no increase in his income limit. He must be earning under £3,500 per annum". The county manager is a knowledgeable man who understands the problems of an ordinary family. He knows that he cannot lend up to £9,000 to a man with £3,500 income because of the amount of the repayments at present rates. We can assume that, as with the building society mortgage, local authority rates are sure to rise. A £9,000 gross loan limit on a person with £3,500 income is strictly enforced and no account is taken of how many children that person has or any other such matters, and the repayment on that loan is £90 a month.

That is not the end of it. Everyone in this House knows well that there is no way that anyone will either build or buy a house for £9,000 today. The cost will be £12,000, £13,000, £14,000 or £16,000 for a very ordinary family house. They know that if that man has the money to buy a site—which let me say has increased tenfold during the term of office of this Government—if a young married man can gather that money together he is an exceptional person. He can get a loan from a local authority provided his income is as I have outlined. But he must then get £4,000 to £5,000 somewhere else; that, on top of £90 a month out of £3,500 gross, having paid whatever tax he is liable for and keeping his wife and family, is no mean feat. The prospects for the ordinary man endeavouring to house himself are not very bright. According to the circular I have mentioned already this man will now be debarred from getting a local authority house. He may apply but he will be ruled out on income grounds because it will be deemed that he is now in the category of a person who can build his own house.

That is the kind of resource we have got from the rosy picture printed prior to the general election. The circular sent to my local authority has suggested also that we should reappraise our method of selecting tenants for local authority housing: they must be family units of three or they should not be considered at all, irrespective of the position of a man and wife who, through no fault of their own, may never have a child. Such a couple cannot be considered for housing at all. That is contained in a circular issued to my local authority under a ministry of this Government. If that is the type of Government we should be supporting, saying they are great boys, I do not believe it and do not stand for it especially when I consider their budgetary practice in going completely overboard to facilitate the rich and very rich within our society; when I consider that they wiped out £10 million in wealth tax and wiped out also approximately £20 million in car tax. How any Government could do that and tell a man and his wife living in a caravan, no matter what their circumstances, that they were ineligible for a local authority house, I fail to understand. That is what has been happening. I doubt if some people in Fianna Fáil realise that that type of circular emanated from the direction of one of their Ministers. That criticism applies equally when one considers the huge taxation amounts allowed to the rich, to the big industrialists, to others who were well able to pay. Of course, I know it was a very popular thing to say there would be no tax on cars after 1 August or some such date. That action won a lot of votes for Fianna Fáil from unthinking people. That promise was carried out to a certain extent, in that the motorist now has to pay £5 only; I do not know whether it is tax or what it is.

I am not attacking them for not keeping their promise. They did keep their promise in that respect but it was irresponsible. Any Government who would do that kind of thing are irresponsible when they did not continue the process started of reducing the eligibility age for old age pensioners. They found it unnecessary to continue that process but they could throw away £20 million in car taxation. In all honesty and fairness I ask where was the money most needed? I think there can be only one answer given to that question.

I should point out also that despite these tax concessions to the very few, 5,000 people, eligible to pay wealth tax, despite the handing to them of £10 million—because that is what that amounted to—they could not afford to issue the normal increase to recipients of social welfare benefits in the month of October that had been the practice over the last few years: oh, no, that could not be done at all; that was one of the areas in which it was necessary to effect savings. But they had money to hand to those people who did not need it—let us be candid and honest about it, they did not need it. We were given no guarantee; the Government maintained they would create employment, do this that and the other but we know they did not.

The Minister for Economic Planning and Development in this House after the last budget told me they are trying this out and, if it did not work, they would be prepared to listen to some suggestion of a State corporation, or of the State doing something about the unemployment problem. That Minister knows well at this juncture that the tax concessions to those people did not bring about the results envisaged. All the talk on the other side of the House is about the thousands of jobs they produced. First we understood there was to be a reduction of many thousands on the live register. Then we discovered there were only 65 jobs for every 100 that came off the live register. These facts are proven. It has been said by the Minister who has just left the House that 12,000 fewer people are on the live register. According to the best available figures, it is a well-known fact also that 15,000 emigrated in the last 12 months—some reduction in the live register.

The Government's performance in the area of job production has been very dismal indeed. They did set up an organisation, a committee or some kind of body—they are very good at setting up such bodies to examine this and that—to see what could be done about youth employment. They did produce jobs; some of them lasted a week. I am not saying anything against it; if a man gets a week's work it is better than none but it is not the type of action that justifies a Government talking about job creation. They are not the type of jobs in which any young person can get any idea of establishing a career for the future. It is better than being completely idle but no Government would have any right to boast about it.

I have outlined quite a few areas in which there is no doubt in my mind —and I do not think there is any doubt in any reasonable person's mind—that the Government have failed to deliver the goods they so ably promised in their election manifesto. I do not think there is any doubt in anybody's mind that housing is in a mess. I do not think there is any doubt in anybody's mind that the Government—by means of circulars, in the Green Paper and in everything else—are determined to cut down on the number of local authority houses built Everything indicates that. In the town of Newbridge we had 21 houses which were part of a scheme started by the Minister in the Government I supported. There are 290 applicants for these 21 houses and I was told by the medical officer that every one of the 290 applicants would qualify. The manager asked the Department if they would allow him as a priority, to build 100 houses which would meet one-third of the demand and he was told he would have to phase the 100. That is the kind of thinking we have now in the Department of the Environment. That is the kind of thinking on the part of a Minister in a Fianna Fáil Government which claims to be fair towards and honest with every section of the community.

There is no doubt in anyone's mind as to where the Government's priorities are. The £10 million given to the wealthy by way of tax relief would build a good few houses. So would the £20 million given to people with cars. I must admit I enjoy not paying motor taxation. I admit many of my friends voted against me because they wanted to go on running their cars. That is a selfish attitude. It is a sorry state when money is taken away from old age pensioners and houses are not provided for those who need them while those who can afford two, three or four cars get the benefit of paying no tax on them at all. This is the action of a Conservative, Right Wing, Tory Government, a Government that feeds the money to the rich and starves the area of social concern. We profess to be Christians. Let me tell the House about two cases in my own constituency where social welfare is concerned. An old age pensioner who reaches 80 years of age qualifies for an increase in pension. Prior to that in one particular case there was a payment of £1 per week supplementary welfare allowance to help the recipients out. Immediately one old age pensioner reached 80 years of age and qualified for the increase the supplementary welfare allowance was taken away and he was back where he started. That is the kind of social policy being pursued by this Government in regard to the most needy. But they have £10 million, £20 million and many more millions to throw away in other areas by way of relief in taxation for the benefit of the rich. I have a duty to my constituents to stand up here and condemn that kind of policy.

Our people are entitled to employment in their own country. Fianna Fáil gave us the idea that with their new think tank and with a Minister for Economic Planning and Development there would be no trouble at all in providing employment for every one. Fianna Fáil always had a method of dealing with unemployment. Of course, it was easier when there was plenty of work elsewhere, when the British labour market was crying out for workers. That removed the danger of critical unemployment here.

The Minister for Economic Planning and Development promised that there would be employment for all our young people. I warned him of the consequences if that were not the evolution. I know a good part of the country and I know my own constituency very well. Before the election great play was made by Fianna Fáil, now in Government, and by people who are now Government Minister touring around the country about the non-availability of employment for school leavers. It is still non-available. I have failed to see any availability of jobs in my contituency for school leavers. There have been schemes. Some lasted for a week. Some lasted for three weeks. If that is the kind of employment they were talking about let them admit it. I do not think that is the kind of employment the young people to whom they were talking at the time envisaged. I think the kind of employment they expected was long-term employment which would provide them with the possibility of a normal life, of getting married and rearing a family in decent comfort. That kind of employment is not available, and Fianna Fáil have failed miserably in this area.

I do not think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that they have failed in the area of housing. But they have failed in other areas as well. It was not in the manifesto, I think, but it was certainly in the literature distributed in Kildare prior to the election—I do not know what the word for it would be, maybe sharp practice—that there would be more money available for roads if Fianna Fáil were returned to power. That was specifically stated. Of course, there was more money but it did less because the cost of the upkeep of roads increased considerably. Deputies complain about the condition of the roads in Kildare. They complain to me. They should really complain to their own Minister. There has been very serious deterioration in the roads over the last couple of years. Most of those who complain only see the primary roads. It they had experience of the county and other roads they would be amazed at their condition. The Government abolished rates. Both sides of the House promised to abolish rates before the election. Fianna Fáil claim credit for removing rates on houses.

The principal part of local authority income was derived from rates and we understood that local authorities would be compensated. That has not happened. Last year Kildare County Council, of which I have the honour to be a member, drew up their estimates prior to the famous directive from the Custom House. Fianna Fáil have a majority on that county council. Despite that drawback they have always been a responsible council. They did not do anything very rash and always felt there should be progress in providing services for the community. I say that in full recognition of all the members of that council of whatever political persuasion. In their wisdom they decided last year that it was necessary to have a 16 per cent increase in order to maintain services and carry out necessary improvements in those services. Then the Fianna Fáil Minister said they were confined to an increase of 11 per cent. That was accepted in good faith and there was no political furore about it. Most local authorities had savings which they used to tide them over. Spending was tight and they had to cut out some of the servies they had intended to provide.

The manager, on the advice of the Government, included a figure to cover the expected wage increase of 5 per cent which was being talked about at that time. If he had included any more he probably would have been rapped on the knuckles. Of course, the increase was much higher than that and a productivity increase was agreed in the Labour Court and sanctioned by the county council. Late in the year Kildare County Council were faced with an expenditure of £85,000 and the Minister said they must find it within the 11 per cent increase. They were faced with the prospect of not paying this sum or laying off workers contrary to Government policy or of performing a conjuring trick and cutting down on various works. They were very lucky because there was a dispute with local authority engineers who went on a go-slow and much of the work could not be done. That saved the Government from a difficult predicament because they had refused to allow excess expenditure by any local authority, which had been a normal practice since county councils began. I refer to excess expenditure for such emergencies as productivity agreements for workers sanctioned by the Labour Court and approved by county councils.

Speaking on the Bill removing rates, the Minister told us that local authority members have as much power as ever. The only power they ever had was to strike a rate and if they could provide money they could order a manager to do anything that was needed. Apart from that, they have some planning powers. They had power to raise money for specific purposes. That power has now been removed and they are confined to an increase of 10 per cent this year. This will not meet inflationary increases, particularly in the building industry with which county councils are very much involved. I am not referring to house building which is financed directly. I am talking about road works which involve materials, the cost of which has increased by much more than 10 per cent. Our county manager will probably say he will manage with 10 per cent because that is the message from the Custom House, but every reasonable person knows that it will be almost impossible for the vast majority of local authorities to maintain their present services with an increase of only 10 per cent.

The manner in which rates are being removed is abolishing completely the power of local representatives. The Minister has the right to prevent a local authority from deciding what money they will spend within their area. Members of local authorities are not irresponsible. They have to face an electorate and landowners and business people still pay rates. Rates will not be increased wantonly and without necessity. If Kildare County Council were free to make the decision; the increase would be 16 per cent or 18 per cent and there would be a fair balance between the services needed and the availability of money. It is irresponsible that the necessary money cannot be provided by local taxation. It is fair to say that the Minister cannot allow a local authority to spend what they like, though I do not think any of them would go wild. After all, some people must still pay rates, but unless there is some form of local taxation local authorities will not have any power.

I want to make a few suggestions about what should be happening in the agricultural field. I want to criticise the Government and the Minister for Agriculture, though I am not attacking his Bill. Maybe he was right but it is time that the advisory services knew where they were going. I understand that the Bill will not be before this House until March or April. This is irresponsible and the Minister should not treat the agricultural community in this way.

I shall not comment on the Bill. It has to come before the House and I shall make known my views then. I am opposed to some provisions in it. If the Minister wished, that Bill could have been passed before the end of this session. The Government have been in office for more than 18 months. The Minister made no secret of the fact that he was opposed to the original Bill. He should have ensured that an alternative Bill was introduced and passed.

There is a report with the Government on land structure. In answer to a question here some time ago the Minister told me he intended to bring the heads of a Bill before the Government before the end of this year and he said that there would be legislation enacted this time next year. I do not know what will be in that Bill but judging from remarks by members of his party and himself it is not intended to limit the acreage that one person may own. Most of the land will be bought by speculators and big farmers if the Minister delays in bringing forward the Bill. The Deputy on the Government bench knows that what I have said is true. If the Minister does not take action he will be irresponsible. The Government had a lot to say about agriculture in their manifesto and they are acting irresponsibly if they allow him to delay any longer.

There was one undertaking in the Fianna Fáil manifesto that I was glad to see, namely, that we should process all our food. This was the first time a political party said what I have been saying for a long time. It is madness to send out cattle on the hoof when we could do much more processing work. There has not been any action by this Government to increase the level of processing work of any foods. In Deputy Callanan's constituency we allowed a State body to close a food processing plant. We should re-examine the Fianna Fáil manifesto as well as everything else on the Fianna Fáil side. If we mean to take action with regard to land structure let us do it, but if we do not we should be honest about it and say so. I have often had to backtrack on things I said when I found I made a mistake.

Fianna Fáil have been the exact opposite to Robin Hood. They have given to the rich and taken from the poor. I have outlined what is happening in the social welfare area and what Fianna Fáil have done for the wealthy. With regard to industrial relations, by their action in abolishing car tax and in abolishing wealth tax they created a feeling among workers that there was plenty of money. Naturally the workers demanded some of that money and the president of the ICTU has spelt that out clearly. The workers got some tax relief but they found out afterwards that they were paying more tax. PAYE workers have to pay 82 per cent or 83 per cent of the total income tax but everyone knows that they do not hold that share of the wealth of the country. When the Government give us a true and democratic tax system where everyone will pay tax, then we may have some semblance of an incomes policy. It will not be achieved by threatening people, by saying that they will use statutory wage measures against the workers while the wealthy are allowed to get away with everything.

Before the previous speaker leaves the Chamber I hope he will afford me a few minutes to correct some of the glaring inaccuracies in his statement. He used the local authority in County Kildare as the criterion to assess Government policies. I am sorry he has left the House because he knows that the arguments he made cannot be substantiated. He knows that local authorities were not short of money to provide their services. A sum of £100 million extra was pumped into the local authorities by the Department of the Environment this year.

I cannot speak for Kildare but the previous speaker was trying to pretend that every local authority was in the same position. I should like to bring him back to reality. The fact is that 16 local authorities were unable to spend their money this year. I am a member of Longford County Council and we had to make special application to the Department of the Environment in the past three or four weeks to ask them to leave us the balance of road grants that would not be spent and to have them credited and spent in early January.

In my constituency local authority housing has not suffered. This year we got more than ever. I was amazed to hear a member of the Labour Party castigating Fianna Fáil with regard to the £9,000 local authority loan ceiling. As a member of a local authority I repeatedly drew attention to the folly of the Labour Minister's attitude towards private housing when he refused to raise the ceiling from £4,500 and an income limit of £2,250. We have gone from £4,500 to £9,000 and we have increased the income limit to £3,500. I would be glad if it was increased still further because I know the difficulties that young couples are up against in trying to get their first house.

In the housing market as in any other market supply and demand determine price. When we came into Government the land banks were there but there was no confidence in relation to developing it. The confidence has been restored to the construction industry since we came to power and a large number of jobs have been created. What has happened now is that the industry has not the capacity in terms of skilled operatives to keep up with it. As has happened before under previous Coalition Governments, the emigrant ships have taken the skilled craftsmen we need for this industry. The Deputy made many more points in relation to local authorities but there is no need to answer them because the facts are there and the people know them. Apparently the Deputy has misread the facts and the feelings of the people. Last June 12 months the people turned their back on a Government which had disgraced themselves and had locked this country into a recession, and looked to a party to provide the leadership and to restore the confidence that would take us out of the recession. To this day the message does not seem to have been received by the Coalition. If they keep trying to perpetuate what are not facts, they will stay in the Opposition benches longer than they think.

The Deputy referred to the removal of car tax as being irresponsible. Would he and his party put car tax back on if they were in office? Does the Deputy as a Member of the Labour Party not represent the workers who use cars to go to work? Did the Deputy not see this as part of a package designed by this Government to decrease inflation and to act as an incentive to get people back to work? During the previous Government's reign a national malaise affected the whole country and it was more lucrative not to work than to work.

The Deputy also complained about the removal of rates. It is hard to know if he is for or against the removal of rates. It was hard to know whether his party were for or against it as they could not muster enough Members to oppose the Bill when a Division was called. If they were back in office would they put rates on houses? I do not believe they would They would know where they went wrong the last time.

The Deputy wound up by expounding a socialist theory which I do not accept, and I have never made any apologies for not accepting it. I believe in our system of Government. I believe that private enterprise should do the most of it and that where private enterprise fails, then the State should intervene. If the Deputy or his party can point to any country where their philosophy has worked I will debate the issues again.

The Deputy said that the Minister for Agriculture was irresponsible. I refute that allegation. In what way is the Minister irresponsible? Is the Deputy's classification of an irresponsible Minister a man who can go over to Europe and negotiate the very best deal we could possibly get, a thing which the Coalition failed to do? We now have entry into the French market for our lamb exports. I am sure the county which the Deputy represents would not wish him to call the Minister irresponsible. They know what returns they are getting for their lambs now as against the returns they got a few years back. Does the Deputy call the Minister irresponsible for introducing a national arterial drainage scheme in the west where a boost is badly needed to bring agricultural production up? Would the Deputy call the Minister irresponsible for introducing a new scheme of field drainage giving the farmers a 70 per cent maximum grant for draining and reclaiming their land? Was it irresponsible of the Minister to go to Brussels and get the best price increases we have ever got? I would give an Oscar to the Minister as the man who has done the finest job for agriculture in the short term he has been in office. I look forward to many more years of success under this Minister. There is no point in somebody trying to take away from the Minister's performance because the farmers know full well of his success.

This debate gives us an opportunity, as Deputy Bermingham said, to look at the record of the Government and the Opposition over the last year and a half. How have we performed in relation to achieving our targets and how have the Opposition done their part as a responsible Opposition? How effective were the Opposition in showing where Government policy was not working and in showing where future decisions should be taken? The Opposition have a duty to put forward their point of view.

Yesterday's EMS debate was the most important debate ever to take place here and I was listening yesterday, as were the people throughout the country, for the Opposition to bore holes in the Government's approach to EMS. I had hoped that the level of debate would be raised by the people in the Opposition. I expected them to try to show clearly what they would have done and what we should do now, and how they would assess our position. I was disappointed as were the people, I am sure, because all we got was the Fine Gael Party trying to undermine the credibility of the Taoiseach. That was a very erroneous approach. The credibility of the Taoiseach stands higher than any other man's in this House. We had confidence in the Taoiseach when he went to the summit meeting and we still have confidence in him. I have dealt with European people at times and I know how tough one has to be. There was no better or tougher man than the Taoiseach to represent us in Brussels. All the Opposition said is that his approach was wrong and that his efforts were a failure. Can anybody say that the Taoiseach's approach in getting so far along the road was wrong? We are not even finished with that exercise. It has continued ever since, as the Taoiseach said it would.

Yesterday I listened to Deputies over there castigating us for the mistake they said we had made in not consulting with the Italians. They repeated it today. The Italian Parliament yesterday voted in favour of joining the EMS and the fact that they are in makes our position much stronger. Anyway, why should we have allied ourselves with the country that would be looking for two or three times the amount we needed? The Taoiseach went to Germany and to France, the people who hold the purse strings. It was no advantage whatsoever to us to go to the Italians. It will be seen when the negotiations have been completed that we will get what we need, thanks to the excellent work done by the Taoiseach and the Cabinet who went for the best possible deal.

The EMS is a challange for this country and if we face that challenge we can produce economic growth that will give us the jobs required by our young people as well as an increasing standard of living. Fine Gael have been telling us that we could not assess the position because we had not got the necessary figures. Those figures were given yesterday in fine detail by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development, but I am sure not many of those over there were able to follow his calculations.

The forecast of the Minister for Economic Planning and Development is the only one that has been proved to be correct in regard to economic growth. The Central Bank report forecast rates of 5 per cent and 5½ per cent and 6 per cent. The ESRI report went along the same lines as the Central Bank, and they all settled finally for the Minister's forecast. The Deputies over there were asking for a lecture on economics, and they got it from that Minister yesterday. I hope they are prepared to agree that his forecast was correct.

I was amazed at the statement last night that the value of the moratorium was not of much use to anybody. There is a businessman sitting over there at the moment and I am sure if he got £1 million or £10 million for five years without a moratorium that he would agree he was not getting very good value and that that value will appreciate throughout the next five years in relation to the inflation rate. I was amazed to hear the Deputy over there talking about the lack of value of such a moratorium, particularly when he said that five experts whom he had consulted could not put a value on it. I would not give him a job running a cake shop in Coolock.

I heard Deputy Hegarty saying last night that we would need more money in the long term than in the short term. Surely the money is more needed in the first couple of years when the problems will be greatest. I suggest that if one calculates a three year moratorium based on interest subsidy on the figures given we would come up with a figure of £70 million. The economic brains are supposed to be over there. I say they are on this side. One of the rarest qualities today is common sense, and if those on the other side possessed that quality they would know that, now that Italy has decided to join the EMS, the other partners, who know that Britain intends to stay out, will say: "There is only Ireland left out". Anyway, the whole thing was political dynamite in Britain, where the Government were defeated twice last night.

There is another point to be considered in our favour. We do not pose the same problems for the French and the Germans as the Italians do. After all, they are direct competitors of the French. If the regional fund had been manipulated to help the Italians it would mean the French would be helping to subsidise a nation which is their competitor.

The situation is totally different now and we are in a strong position. I am fully behind the Government in going into the EMS. I know the Government have done the necessary calculations and I have confidence in their handling of the situation. I should be surprised if they do not come up with even more before 1 January. I believe there is a genuine wish in Europe to get us into the new system, that the Germans want to redeem the prestige they may have lost by the collapse of the Summit, that the French have had second thoughts and now that the Italians are in, I believe they will be able to offer more money. I support the Government, the Taoiseach and the Cabinet in recommending that we go in. I would not be surprised if the offer is improved.

We still would not know whether the politicians over there would be behind us. I listened to Deputy FitzGerald and his price for going in, I understood, was £600 million per annum, a total of £3,000 million. I do not consider that realistic or practical. Why does he think the European system should give us £3,000 million? Many people seem to have an unrealistic approach to this matter. How could we have the muscle and power that Opposition speakers are trying to say we should have around the European table? We are a full member of the EEC but we are a very tiny nation compared with the strength of the others around that table. Some say we should not go around with a begging bowl, but no matter what name you put on it when we come back with a deal such as we shall have got when it is brought to its final stages, I do not think it so bad. I commend the Taoiseach for playing his cards close to his chest and watching developments, because he was the only one from this House sitting at that table with the rest of the Nine and he alone knew whether they wanted this system to work. He was the only one who could judge.

Of course there were hysterical headlines screaming that we had got it wrong, that we were conned and so on. It is time enough for that when the offer is there and the decision made. We should not shout before that time. I believe that a fantastic job was done and that we will see the fruits of it.

The Irish people got very little from the debate here as far as the Opposition were concerned. The Government published a White Paper giving all the facts but the people expected more to come out of the debate. The ordinary people want to know how this decision will affect them. They could be forgiven for thinking that the debate was about the zoological gardens because they read in recent weeks about snakes, baskets, parity grids, about emus and ecus and naturally they were confused. The Opposition tried to add to that confusion and hopefully to discredit Fianna Fáil in some way—a very unnational approach in such a serious situation. In the circumstances we should put all our brains together in an effort to get the best deal possible. This is for Ireland, not for Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour. That should have been our approach. Instead some of the Opposition members showed distorted thinking about whether we should stick with sterling and with Britain saying that the only reason Fianna Fáil spoke about getting away from sterling was because it was a political issue, that we were trying to wave the green flag and saying it was time to get rid of it.

We know it is time to get rid of it because we have seen what the country suffered in the past four or five years since instability of currency rates began in the 1970s. We saw what happened when the Americans stopped paying 35 dollars an ounce in gold against their dollar. That was the start of it and it has been happening since, sometimes quietly and sometimes with devaluations. We were going steadily down. But when we look at our economy today we are as well prepared as ever we will be, in my opinion, to go into another monetary system. In spite of all the forecasts to the contrary the balance of payments is working out quite well this year. We were told we would produce a consumer boom that would destroy our reserves and our balance of payments position. We know that will not happen now. Investment has gone up by 14 per cent and confidence is back. There are problems on the horizon and we hope to tackle them later but we are now as well prepared as we shall ever be.

No time is ever quite right. When the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement was being discussed we were told it was not the time for it, that the country would be destroyed and every job gone. Certainly, there was a watershed as there always will be when you change circumstances like that. When it came to the decision about joining the EEC I heard it being debated by the Labour Party whether every factory in the country would be closed down—how could we compete with this and that? We knew the balance of advantage lay in getting a proper price for our agricultural produce. That was what we wanted and if we got that side of our economy right we knew we could bring up the other side also. We were told by the Labour people that everything would be gone. There was some watershed, as there always is, and in this situation I believe there will be some more watersheds.

I am not pointing the finger of blame at the workers: I consider this a cooperative job. If we enter the EMS, as I hope we will, there is no place in that system for stale or feeble managements that will not tackle the problems within their own industry, that will not bring up productivity and are not prepared to share increased productivity with their workers, managements that look backwards instead of forwards. There is no place for people who will not recognise and appreciate the problems of workers in some industries today. They also have a responsibility, and if they fail to measure up to it, neither this Government nor any other Government will have a responsibility to them because they are reneging their own responsibility to themselves and their workers. If they go by the board it is just too bad, because all the incentives are there for them to make themselves competitive. All they have to do is to work themselves. I had this experience myself. They have the chance to do it now. They may not get a second one.

I do not agree with them always pointing the finger at the workers, who certainly also have a responsibility. We have seen so often small groups of workers tending to go against the general opinion and indeed the general wellbeing of their fellow workers. That I would decry. We have seen many unofficial strikes by small groups who at the end of the day are inflicting more hardship on their fellow workers than on those they think they are affecting. I like to see a very strong trade union movement. That is what we need in the new situation. We need a coming together within the trade union movement so that instead of having perhaps 80 or 90 voices speaking for our relatively small workforce it could be confined to a few. A spirit of partnership is needed here.

When we talk about restraint and discipline we see trade union leaders react instantly as if the finger points at them and nobody, else. As far as I am concerned it points at more than them. It points at everybody, the Government, the farmers and right across the economy when we say we need discipline to get our economy moving properly. We must carry that responsibility, and as public representatives we should not be afraid to get up and say it.

We have the opportunity to build our country into a very prosperous nation that can give us all we want out of life and can give our sons and daughters the type of things they want. If we allow ourselves to go up a cul de sac it will not happen and the responsibility will be on all our shoulders. We have our destiny within our own hands. We can decide where we will go and where we will not go. We have heard a lot of talk about the value of different currencies, but the value of any currency rests on the capacity of the people of that country. They can decide by their own actions how much carrots or anything else they will produce and at what price they can sell them. That is the real value of any currency either inside or outside an EMS.

One speaker said that we should think about what the situation was many years ago. We can be self-sufficient. We can feed ourselves and have small things but if we want the things we have today we must be prepared to pay the price for them. We must be prepared to accept the disciplines that can guarantee them to us in the long-term. If we are prepared to accept a low standard of living we do not need to go into the EMS. We are an agricultural country and can produce enough between growing potatoes, wheat and barley and catching fish which will feed our people, but if we want to be the prosperous nation which our people aspire to and our young people look forward to we must accept disciplines.

I hope the right decision will be taken when all the facts are known. I look forward to seeing us join the EMS and accepting the disciplines that go with it, so that we can build for our people as good a country as any in Europe, because for too long we have been dependant on others to do the job for us. This may be because of our dependence on England over the years. I believe we have the opportunity to shake off that dependence and get ourselves back on the road to building on the great foundation which was laid by last January's budget. Many people did not agree with the underlying thinking in it because they felt that the Government were taking away from the poor people and giving to the rich people. That has never been the philosophy of Fianna Fáil and is not their philosophy now. One speaker today called Fianna Fáil a right wing Tory party. Fianna Fáil are a party of practical men who respond to the wishes of the Irish people. I do not expect everybody on the other side to agree with what Fianna Fáil are doing. Fianna Fáil are saying to the people: "That is what we meant, and we leave it to you at the next general election to decide if we were successful or were not."

Some of the people on the other side still take up the manifesto. I did not stand on platforms in the last general election campaign waving the manifesto because I did not need it. I knew what the feeling of the people was. The people on the other side are trying to convince everybody that they have gone up in popularity since the general election, but the last Gallup poll that was taken shows that they have gone down further.

The Deputy's party went down very far the year before the last general election.

I do not believe the Deputy saw me waving the manifesto about on any of the platforms in Longford or Westmeath because I knew I did not need to do that. We said in the manifesto we would have a 7 per cent inflation rate. We got it down below that and it may finish up closer to 8 per cent.

(Interruptions.)

If Deputy L'Estrange is honest he will be prepared to say, as far as the job situation in Longford is concerned, that during the first three months after I was elected we were overpowered with people looking for jobs.

During the past month nobody has come to me looking for a job. The last industry which came to Longford advertised 350 jobs and 260 of the people who applied for them are already in employment.

Fourteen thousand emigrated.

Longford County Council were looking for people to work because they had money to spend, but by 31 January they could not get them. There is a boom in the building industry in Longford. If the Deputy wants to check with his Mullingar friends who have been building in Longford if they can get builders' labourers or craftsmen they will tell him they are not available. Despite this we have people who hold up the live register and say that it is the Bible. I want to be practical about this because I think the time has come to put the people who are unemployed into sections and see what the size of the problem is. I would like to know what kind of jobs the thousands of people who are looking for work want. If the Coalition Government had taken the census we would know where those people are. As soon as the Minister for Economic Planning and Development and the Minister for Social Welfare get around to it they should sectionalise the live register so that we know where the problem is. I know there may be people looking for jobs in other parts of the country but there are not any in my county. Deputy L'Estrange's area has had quite an amount of industrial development in the last few years and I am sure they have no unemployment problem either.

More money went to Longford during the Coalition Government than ever before.

I want to put it on the record of the House that not one new factory was built in County Longford during the term of the National Coalition Government.

What about the one in Castlepollard?

There is a proposal to build a factory in Castlepollard. As Deputy L'Estrange, who is a member of the European Parliament and an aspirant to the permanent European Parliament knows well, the MCA's do not operate in favour of canned goods from Ireland. It is cheaper to go to the UK, bring the produce from here and get it canned there. I am a business man. Consequently I am in the business of providing jobs, but I would not be able to provide them for very long if I did not make enough money to pay the wages. The MCA's are totally in reverse. The man who is in partnership with me knows the score very well. When the MCA's have gone the factory will materialise. Indeed, there would be another three or four factories if I could find the people with the right ideas. What is wrong in this country is that while the opportunities are available the entrepreneurs are not taking advantage of them. That is because the last Government killed the whole system whereby people were prepared to put their money into business ventures.

As the Deputy knows well there was a recession then but in that situation we did well.

The Deputy's party did not do well for Longford.

The Deputy knows that it takes years to plan a factory. Has any factory been built in Longford in the past 18 months?

Deputy Reynolds, without interruption.

There was none built there while the Coalition were in power. Would the people opposite at this late stage not be prepared to admit that it is right that we go into the EMS? There is no point in blaming the private sector for not providing the jobs. Our infrastructure is not in a position to stand up to the big demands on it. The private sector can go forward if, in a short number of years, we can provide the necessary infrastructure in terms of roads, telecommunications and so on. But Europe is the place to get the money that is required for this purpose. We will provide the facilities for expanding industry in this country.

What country?

This is a big change from the position of ten or 12 years ago when Fianna Fáil would not recognise the British market let alone the European market.

Acting Chairman

Order.

On a point of order, would the Deputy tell us what country he is referring to, because I understand the Taoiseach to be taking in only two-thirds of this country?

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of order.

Is Deputy Harte going for Europe, too? I know which country the Taoiseach is talking about.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Deputy Reynolds must conclude now.

My advice to the people opposite is to take their courage in their hands and agree that we should join the EMS, take the money and work from there. In this way we will be creating a better country for ourselves and for our children for the years ahead.

The most important issue by far to come before this House during this session has been the question of the EMS, but in this regard I am not prepared to follow the blind attitude of the last speaker. Entry to EMS is a move towards European unity and to cohesion within the EEC. That is an objective shared by this party and put forward by us since the sixties. In their negotiations the Government sought a resource transfer of £650 million for a five-year period or £130 million each year for that time. There was a reason for seeking these resource transfers. Our economy is much weaker than the economies of our neighbours, and consequently we would be faced in an EMS situation with the danger that would be inherent in a rapid reduction in inflation and in our having to work within a very confined system, a situation which, if not handled properly, could cause severe unemployment.

However, as I see it, a resource transfer is a direct grant aid, a direct transfer of resources on a grant-aid basis from the richer to the poorer countries. This is what was understood clearly by this side of the House and indeed by the country generally, but it transpired that the negotiations were not going that way and eventually, in early December, there was an offer, not of a transfer of grants, but of the establishment of soft loans to the tune of £225 million per year for a five-year period, making a total of £1,125 million. This was to be subsidised to the extent of 3 per cent with a moratorium being put on the repayments for a period of from three to five years. This moratorium and interest subsidy has been calculated as being in the nature of positive financial benefit and has been calculated to be of the order of £45 million per year for five years with a quantification that has been put on the moratorium and on the interest subsidy by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development.

I challenge the final value of that approach to this matter. We are to get a subsidy of only 3 per cent, and that 3 per cent will have to be paid to us by the other EEC members with our paying back for a 15-year period at a rate of, say, 6 per cent, assuming that the subsidy is 3 per cent on 9 per cent. I do not think that is of any real or lasting benefit to our economy. Perhaps the transfer of the subsidy will turn out to be the use of that subsidy and that there may be a certain value placed on the use and availability of the £45 million. But as an economist I am not satisfied that the real value placed by the Government on the exercise has any substance. I doubt very much if the exercise they have entered into because of their failure to get direct grant aid is to the benefit of the economy in the long-term.

We, on this side of the House, have established a constructive attitude to the EMS question. We understand that it is of major national importance. We have awaited the outcome of negotiations and we are disappointed that the Government failed to persuade our partners to get this grant transfer. It appears that we had the goodwill of German Chancellor Schmidt but there was no direct reference in the Taoiseach's statement to Giscard D'Estaing, the French President. It is well known that the Gaullist party are not in favour of European elections, and that party themselves are not in any way helpful to the cause of a unified Europe and certainly not helpful to the Irish case abroad. Yet this is the party with which the Fianna Fáil Party have allied themselves on the European scene and it is one which is militating directly against the position of Ireland in the sphere of unity and evolution of the EMS. In the White Paper this week on page 7, paragraph 12, it is stated:

Ireland indicated that grants were the preferred form of Community aid for the reason that it was the Government's aim to reduce the borrowing requirements as a percentage of GNP.

That is a euphemism. Grants were sought and we did not get them. It was on that basis that the Government decided not to joint the EMS, although current rumours are that the Government have entered into and have concluded negotiations and are now considering, and there may be an imminent announcement that we are going into the EMS. If there has been a re-negotiating position and if there is to be a decision to join the EMS, that matter should be debated in this House. I do not agree with them when they said last week that it was a Government decision. It is not the Government's decision. It is a matter for the Members of Parliament to examine and decide on the merits of the case. We on this side will look at it in a constructive way because we are basically committed to the concept of European unity and to doing away with fluctuations in exchange rates and having equilibrium in this field. The Government need not fear us. We are anxious to play our part in Europe. Certainly it is a matter for Parliament, not for the Government.

I do not wish to delay on this matter, except to say that the manner in which the Government have handled it leaves a lot to be desired. They sought grants and did not get them. They got loans. They got subsidisations of those loans and they tried to portray that subsidisation as a benefit. It is a fraction of a benefit; it is not a benefit as described by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development. We are getting soft loans and they have to be repaid. The basic reason that the Government will decide on entry into the EMS is that our borrowing position has become so perilous, unhealthy and irretrievable that, irrespective of the pros and cons of the argument to joint the EMS, the Government are left with Hobson's choice. Hobson's choice is to get their hands on the cheap loans because otherwise they may have to go shopping to the money market. They will have to go shopping because it is well known that the current budget has to be funded to the extent of over £400 million and the capital budget has also to be funded to the same extent. It is also well known that the national debt has increased from approximately £4,300 million at the end of last year to a nice, round figure of £5,000 million at the end of this year. That is the reply to a question which I had in the Dáil. The borrowing position is precarious and that is the reason that the Government will decide on entry. That is unfortunate, because any decision to enter a system should be from a point of view of strength. In this case the decision is emanating from a point of view of weakness. That is unfortunate for the country, because the terms as laid out by the Government in the White Paper are not beneficial to Ireland over the long term. In juxtaposition to increasing our external reserves referred to by the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry earlier this afternoon it is really only a mirror job because these external reserves, if taken up, become external liabilities and must be paid back. It is not a healthy position. Even though external reserves may be used to pay off other external loans, it is an unfortunate position for the Government. That is all I wish to say on the EMS.

I wish to take up the question of unemployment which has been, is and will continue to be a central problem in our country, and it is a matter to which I would like to refer at some length. I do so simply because of the dishonest fashion in which at Question Time in this House over the past while, Ministers have simply refused to discuss the question of unemployment.

I do not mean employment. We have tremendous statements on the figures of job creation. We have even gone to such a length about job creation that we speak of the number of jobs created, and then, maybe as an addendum, we say that because of the time lag some of these jobs have not yet been filled. That is probably an apology in relation to job creation. I want to discuss unemployment. Down the years for as long as I am a Member of this House, until quite recently, the normal indicator of unemployment has been the live register. I admit that it is not perfect. It is crude. It does not include certain categories and it does not include the under-employed. It is, nevertheless, an indicator. The White Paper National Development 1977-1980 laid by the Government before each House of the Oireachtas in January 1978 has a table on page 20 which indicates:

Reduction in numbers out of work: 1977, 5,000; 1978, 20,000.

Those are specific figures. That would indicate a reduction up to the end of this year in the numbers out of work of 25,000.

I will now quote from The Irish Times of 14 January 1978 regarding an interview given by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development:

In a briefing at Leinster House, the Minister said that, based on these figures, the number on the live employment register would fall from 110,000 at the end of 1977 to 62,000 at the end of 1980.

That was a clear statement. It was quite difficult to get the Minister to commit himself on this question of the live register. On 25 November 1977 the total numbers on the live register were 107,213. On 24 November 1978 the numbers were 98,438, a reduction of 8,775. I suggest that figure is very far short of the 25,000 suggested in the White Paper. Any of us involved in the field of politics know that there is a continuing high level of unemployment in the country, and this even in the light of a figure of emigration in the region of 14,000 for 1978. Had there not been that emigration of 14,000, or whatever may be the final figure, let us say, even 10,000——

Where did the Deputy get the 14,000?

Acting Chairman

Order, please.

Had there not been emigration, and it is generally acknowledged by the Government side as well as the Opposition that there has been emigration——

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

No interruptions, please.

Had there not been emigration the fact of the matter is that the numbers on the live register would have increased. Frankly, I am fed up with Ministers coming into the House, failing to answer questions on unemployment, but rather converting the whole question to that of creation of employment——

Positive thinking.

Not that I am not concerned about it; of course I am. Of course I am concerned about the policies which will be prompted by the Government.

I might refer now to the Taoiseach's statement this morning when he said:

It is evident that the impact of the very large increase in employment which has taken place is not fully reflected in the live register returns.

This is the beginning, the crack. It is just not happening. There is not a one for one relationship. Then he continued to say:

... These have been running throughout the year in the range 10,000 to 12,000 below the corresponding figures of last year. At the most recent date for which figures are available, the live register was about 10 per cent below the comparable 1977 figure.

Those are the only inroads made by the Government and are not significant because of the emigration factor. It demonstrates that the policies of the Government to date have not been successful.

Concerning youth employment, the Taoiseach had this to say:

In the youth employment area, progress has been very satisfactory and job creation will exceed the target of 5,000 by more than 1,400 jobs. While some of these jobs are of a short-term nature....

In effect, this is what the Government have been doing with the youth employment schemes. They are offering employment to young people for a few weeks and using that as an essential ingredient of their job creation policy. Short-term jobs of a matter of weeks should not reckon in those calculations.

Does the Deputy deny the importance of job experience?

I do not at all deny the importance of job experience. But to use short-term jobs of weeks' duration to justify their employment policy and again to use that figure in relation to unemployment is sharp practice, to say the least. Some of these jobs are of a very short-term nature. It is something which must be investigated and improved if this scheme is to be taken seriously by the young people concerned.

The most significant statement of all in relation to employment in the Taoiseach's speech was:

However, the positive contribution of the private sector to these increases now seems likely to be less than had been expected, firstly, because the level of job losses through redundancy is above expectation and, secondly, because the bulk of increased industrial output is coming from greater productivity rather than greater employment.

Surely, in relation to any job creation policy the question of redundancies would be dealt with and built into the scheme. There is no point in the Taoiseach coming back into the House and saying: The level of job losses through redundancy is upsetting my original calculation. It is either that or that the whole position of private industry is in jeopardy. Why are we having such increases in refundancy? These are questions to which I should like answers. Of course, the fact is that the policies being pursued by the Government—and this has been acknowledged by the Minister of State sitting opposite—have led to an atmosphere of uncertainty in the private industrial sector. Certainly the recent statement that the inflation rate will exceed the projected 7 per cent level is disconcerting; certainly it is disconcerting to employers. The whole question of confidence, which was so valued apparently, may evaporate rather quickly if the Government are admitting now that their targets are not going to be met.

So the Deputy admits that there is a level of confidence?

I am sure there was confidence in Nero.

And Hitler had a fair level of confidence in Germany.

Acting Chairman

No interruptions, please. Deputy Collins is in possession.

It is very difficult to promote and maintain confidence. A situation in which a Government go on a spending spree, ending up with a budgetary deficit on current account of £400 million plus and something similar on the capital budget side, is unlikely to lead to confidence because people in business are well aware it will lead to inflation. The Minister acknowledges this and acknowledges also that the question of wage drifts, which was discussed in the House here yesterday, has also caused an increase in inflation. The absence of a guiding hand by the Government in relation to a new national pay agreement is interesting. It is a typical example of Government leading from behind. Whereas before the Government insisted on being part of the national pay agreement, because they were the biggest employers, now they are running for cover because it has gone out of control through their lack of interest. They have opted not to positively promote a new national pay agreement. That is a most unfortunate attitude to be adopted by any responsible Government. Indeed it leads me to the conclusion that the Government are irresponsible, and it would not be the first time that thought crossed my mind. The lack of a national wage agreement, the possibility of a free-for-all wage bargaining is a serious matter the Government cannot possibly ignore or run away from, as they have done to date.

The balance of payments has come up for discussion. The Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, or Bird's Eye Fish Fingers, or whatever, came in today——

Is that a proper way to refer to a Minister?

Acting Chairman

No.

I withdraw it. He was quite happy to see a worsening balance of payments. In the Central Bank Report of Fomhar 1978 it is stated:

The external deficit now envisaged by 1980, although somewhat lower than the £500 million projected in the Green Paper, is quite considerable and may prove to be a problem. Balance of payments deficits of this order of magnitude could exert considerable pressure on the external reserves.

That is a clear and concise statement and a very important statement. The need for a rapid reduction in our balance of payments deficit was referred to in the White Paper in the context of our entry into the EMS. This is an aspect that has not been discussed fully in the White Paper, in this House, or by any Minister. It is a vitally important aspect from the point of view of economic policy. In the White Paper, page 5, there is the following statement:

In order to attain this, the balance of payments deficit on current account might well have to be reduced to lower levels more rapidly than envisaged in the Government's strategy.

That is an aspect that has not been discussed. This policy could lead to unemployment but there has been no reference at all to that.

I would like now to look at some of the policies of the Government which will affect the ordinary people when the new year dawns. I am sure the housewife will be pleased by the announcement about the phasing out of food subsidies. The subsidy has gone in respect of cheese and now the housewife can look forward to the phasing out of subsidies, which were introduced by the National Coalition Government——

Pure speculation.

It is not my wish to upset the Deputy.

The Deputy is not upsetting me.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Collins, without interruption, please.

I am sorry to have to enlighten the Deputy but in the Green Paper on full employment——

That is a discussion document.

At page 83 of the Green Paper there is the following statement:

While subsidies are useful in moderating inflationary pressures it is not envisaged that they will become a permanent feature. At the same time it would be wrong to discontinue them abruptly since this would give a noticeable boost to inflation. The more appropriate approach would appear to be to phase out these subsidies over a period of years.

I submit that is more than speculation. It is a positive statement, the most positive I could lay my hands on. This would be a brutal anti-social move by the Government. The commodities affected—milk, butter, flour, bread and town gas—are the items most used by the lower income groups.

The Green Paper is a discussion document.

The good housewives can look forward to the abolition of food subsidies if the suggestions in the Government's Green Paper are carried through into their White Paper, the White Paper they did not have the guts to publish before the Dáil goes into recess. I warn Deputies opposite that if they attempt to remove food subsidies we will resist that tooth and nail because we would consider it a most anti-social move, but a move to be expected from this anti-social Government.

Again, there is a suggestion in the Green Paper to tax children's allowances for the purpose of apparently recouping revenue that cannot be found in some other way.

That was discussed at a meeting of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party too.

And I think they had a slight disagreement there also. The idea of taxing children's allowances is a monstrous one. They represent the only few shillings the mother gets and any move to tax them will be strenuously resisted by this side of the House. Of course the Government can do it by stealth. They can do it by amending the personal allowances. This will be another anti-social move by this anti-social Government intent only on making the wealthy more wealthy still.

The idea of removing rates from houses is basically good but it is also regressive. I am sure Deputies opposite are all happy in the knowledge that the lords of the land in their castles, their mansions and their manors are all tax free from the point of view of rates. Was that a tremendously socially progressive move by a socially conscious Government? I would fully support the removal of rates from ordinary dwellinghouses, but the Government gave the millionaires a few thousand pounds. That is a good example of the Government's social policy.

Is the Deputy suggesting that rates be reimposed?

I am making a clear statement and I do not want the Minister of State to twist it. I support the derating of ordinary houses and I oppose the policy of the Government in removing rates from the mansions of the wealthiest people in the country.

What valuation cut-off point would the Deputy suggest?

From the valuation of the Minister of State's house upwards.

Derating up to a valuation of £50 might be reasonable. I do not think that would be anti-social. I am not a valuation expert. Perhaps there could be a graded system up to £70 valuation. I do not want to be harsh.

Education is a very interesting area for which I have some responsibility. This subject was touched on in the Green Paper and the possibility was mentioned of doubling university fees. Is that the way to encourage people to pursue third level education? In Germany third level education is free. It is suggested that those who do not qualify for grants should be given loans. This State runs the poorest student financing scheme in Europe. The participation rate in third level education is among the lowest in Europe, and Fianna Fáil are now considering the doubling of university fees, another socially progressive step by that great party. A loan scheme is anathema to the USI. It is anathema to any policy designed to evolve a comprehensive system of State financing of third level education.

We are short of teachers, especially in the primary sector. In the context of the numbers of teachers who will be required to service the rising population, we should be encouraging students to enter teacher training colleges. The Green Paper is against that. According to the Green Paper, teacher training college students enjoy a level of State support which far exceeds that of other third level students. We need teachers but we will not encourage them. The restrictive suggestion is made that their board and maintenance should be discontinued.

In the last budget social welfare recipients received an increase of 10 per cent across the board. They did not get anything last October, and the effectiveness of that 10 per cent meant a real annual increase of 6 per cent or 7 per cent, lower than the rate of inflation. That budget was the most anti-social I have seen in years. There was no consideration for people in genuine need who are suffering from the effects of inflation. I refer specifically to old people, those with families to support who cannot find work and those in receipt of disability benefit. It was a socially disastrous budget and an example of the manner in which this Government operate.

Mortgage interest rates now exceed 14 per cent. When that happened during the Coalition term of office, we subsidised interest rates. This Government have stated clearly that they will not subsidise mortgage interest rates; it is beyond them. Do they defend that decision? It is the most disgusting and disgraceful decision made to date. They want to encourage young married couples to buy their own houses, yet they run away from the problem when interest rates are in excess of 14 per cent and fail to give a financial subsidy as the National Coalition Government did.

I now refer to house prices and the famous £1,000 grant. Over the past year house prices have risen by 26 per cent, a staggering increase in one year. A house which last year cost £10,000 now costs £12,500. The emphasis is being put by the Government on the private sector rather than the public sector. The effect will be to reduce the net stock of houses available to people who cannot afford to purchase their own homes and they will be forced into a market where prices have increased by 26 per cent. They will face the prospect of raising large loans which, because of their age, they could not possibly afford to service. The Government have created a serious social evil affecting young married couples by their failure to control house prices and to subsidise mortgage interest rates. They are causing a new social phenomenon. Many young couples cannot raise the necessary mortgage and those who have succeeded in doing so are being strangled by the interest payable. That is a manifestation of the tremendous social conscience of this Government.

My last point concerns the Common Agricultural Policy. Consumer pressure in relation to agricultural prices is a serious matter. There is a tremendous consumer lobby against price increases in agricultural products under the CAP. That must be resisted. There is no evidence that the Government will get a substantial increase in agricultural prices next year.

There are a number of matters I wish to raise. I should like to remind Deputy Collins that the interest rate is now at the same level as when his party were in power but there was not then the £1,000 grant.

The builders have it now.

People also realise that wage levels have risen.

The EMS has attracted more than its fair share of speakers and I should like to deal with health matters. When Fianna Fáil came back to power 18 months ago health matters generally were in the worst situation I can remember.

When the present Minister for Health took over he was faced with a Department that needed revitalising. That Department had suffered whether from world inflation, as Deputy Collins said, or perhaps the people there were not interested in health matters or the Department was badly handled. For whatever reason the morale was low, and this applied also to the staffs in the hospitals and health boards. Finance was not available for the necessary services. Staff appointments had been frozen for a number of years, equipment was not available and consultant appointments that had been sanctioned by Comhairle na nOspidéal were not filled. Even when they were filled the consultants were not given proper equipment to do their work.

Fianna Fáil came into office with a health policy that was aimed at providing a first-class general service for all. It was our policy to ensure that nobody was denied proper care. The Minister had a number of objectives. First, sufficient funds had to be made available to ensure, as was pointed out in the manifesto, that by better management, careful selection of priorities and planned budgeting the moneys would be spent to the best possible advantage. It was planned that for the first time the allocation of money to the Department of Health would include provision in respect of preventive medicine. It was our aim to ensure a better health education for all so that people would be aware of the evils of excessive alcohol, smoking, drug addiction and so on. It was proposed to curtail advertising of cigarettes, and in recent months the Minister has taken a keen interest in this matter. It is our policy to show young people the disadvantages of excessive drinking and smoking.

When the Minister came into office one of the items mentioned was the improvement of local health services. It is our policy to provide a comprehensive community care programme with a full range of services in each area. While all of this has not been achieved in 18 months, the Minister has gone a long way towards overcoming many of the problems that existed.

The Minister's problem was to get sufficient funds. The budget for the Department of Health totalled £390 million in 1978 in respect of revenue items. The amount involved in the capital programme was £20 million. This is a high proportion of our GNP but it has allowed our health services to improve considerably. Staff appointments have been sanctioned and temporary accommodation has been provided to alleviate many of the short-term problems in our hospitals. The sophisticated equipment that is necessary has been provided and the consultants have been given the necessary facilities to carry out their work.

Throughout the country hospitals are being built or are at the planning stage. Hospitals have been provided in Cork, Tralee, Castlebar, Donegal, Cavan, Drogheda and major hospitals are planned for the north side of Dublin city. In the past few years there have been considerable delays experienced by patients awaiting admission to hospitals in Dublin. The Beaumont hospital that is being constructed is bound to alleviate the problem. In the Mater hospital temporary accommodation has been provided for out-patients and this will ensure that people are treated quickly.

Successive Governments failed to realise that the Department of Health should also try to educate the people with regard to their health. If money is put into sporting facilities it can help people to stay healthy. This is preferable to spending enormous sums of money on building hospitals. Health education is an important part of any health service. If people keep fit and well, when they do fall ill the possibility is that they will recover more quickly than those who were unfit in the first place. This has been proved in other countries. In Ireland the average stay in hospital is ten days but in other countries it is 8.9 days. Until recently the average stay in Irish hospitals was considerably more than ten days. If we had a healthy people generally there would be a considerable saving in the funds provided for health and the money saved could be put into sporting facilities. Even if a small percentage could be taken from the drug bill it would probably build a few football pitches and swimming pools each year. This is the first time a Government have taken the decision to look at health from this viewpoint.

When the Government took up office they felt strongly that no person should be denied medical care because of his inability to pay for it. The Minister recently announced a change of policy so as to assess the services available to medical card holders who comprise approximately 40 per cent of the population, to those with limited eligibility, comprising about 45 per cent and to those who are presently paying patients. I welcome that. It is long overdue. Many people at present have major operations costing up to £1,000. When they should be convalescing after the operation they find themselves under severe pressure from collection agencies and legal organisations to pay the bill. Some of these people never thought they would be sick and were not covered under VHI and have no hope of paying the bill. The revision of categories is not finalised, but apparently medical card holders will still be entitled to the full range of services free of charge and they will be entitled to free GP services and free drugs. The limited eligibility category will be entitled to free hospital services, and if they wish to opt for private or semi-private accommodation that will be subsidised, and there will also be free maternity services. Under the new scheme no one will have to pay more than £6.50 per month for drugs, and that is a tremendous step forward. People earning over £5,000 per annum will from April be entitled to a free full range of public level hospital inpatient services. They will be subsidised if they wish to have private or semi-private accommodation. They will also be entitled to special diagnostic and treatment services on an out-patient basis in public hospitals and they will only have to pay their consultants.

The Minister also stated that the VHI will be introducing new conditions to make it easier for people to pay their bills, if they take private or semi-private accommodation in hospital. In most of the big general hospitals the accommodation in the public and the private wards nowadays is much the same. The differences in meals and services that were heard about in the old days are no longer present. The VHI have also intimated that they will suspend the 65 years age limit. There will be an opportunity for people who have had a previous medical history and who would not be accepted before, to join the VHI without restriction. That is also a tremendous step forward, and it goes a long way towards fulfilling Fianna Fáil's election promise of 18 months ago of free health services for all.

Why does the Deputy not ask someone who is looking for it?

From my experience in Dublin I know that if local community services in relation to child guidance and child psychiatry are set up they will be of tremendous benefit. General hospitals do not cater for a lot of the child problems which clinics or community centres would cater for. Any money spent to get the children away from the hospitals and institutionalised organisations is money well spent. Unfortunately, over the years the policy of successive Ministers for Health has been to institutionalise everything and not to spend money on community clinics or community centres. I congratulate the Minister on the money spent this year in relation to children and I hope that further money will be made available in the health Estimate.

The renegotiation of the contract with the doctors involved in the general medical services is still doubtful according to today's Irish Times but I hope that what happened four years ago, where a whole scheme which could have benefited 100,000 people died because of the attitude of 1,000 people will not happen again. There seems to be no doubt that the scheme envisaged by the Minister will go ahead from April and that the contract will be sorted out and that there will be improvements in the general medical service. I have noticed that it is very difficult to deal with the health board and the general medical services. They seem to be disorganised, but it is hard to see where the problem lies. Perhaps the EHB covers too large a region and is trying to cater for too many people and it cannot adequately do the job that other health boards seem to be able to do. I know the Minister is looking at that area and I hope that he will solve these problems.

In recent weeks Deputies have spoken about the dental and ophthalmic services, the mental homes and the closure of St. Brendan's Hospital in line with Government policy. Apart from overcrowding, facilities in many hospitals are still very backward. Indeed a healthy person would not be too happy living in these conditions not to speak of a patient. The Minister this year has provided several hundred thousand pounds to help to remedy some of the problems for both staff and patients. Works were carried out costing sums like £10,000 and £12,000 each. They were small improvement jobs but the staffs and patients were able to see that efforts are being made to get away from the old prison-type hospital conditions.

Earlier I referred to medicine and drugs and the cost to the Exchequer in regard to these matters. Reverting to medicine, I have always felt that the drug companies make excessive profits—the cost of drugs has gone up at an annual rate of about 40 per cent when general costs were increasing by 20 per cent—and the explanation has been that the money has gone back into research. If such money were given to the Department to administer there would be evidence that it was being spent on research and for the betterment of society in general.

There is another important point in regard to the cost of drugs. It seems there is overspending and possible over-prescribing. In this sphere something seems to have gone wrong during the years, particularly in regard to the volume increase. Many of our drugs seem to be imported. These are all matters which should be looked at by the Department with a view to cutting back our expenditure on drugs.

On the question of local authority estimates, many Deputies suggested that this year there would have to be severe cutbacks in the amount local authorities will have to spend, and therefore in the services provided. I can speak only for Dublin Corporation, and during our estimates meetings during the week we were told that there will be a small comparative cutback of £400,000. I say it is small because I am taking it as a percentage of a total budget of £100 million. Local authority managers have ways and means of providing for savings when they are preparing their estimates. It is a pity to have to cut back on anything, but in relation to Dublin Corporation the percentage is marginal. Indeed, in regard to many important services it will be found that increased moneys will be available next year and that the local authority will be in a position to maintain jobs at the 1978 level. Therefore, all this talk about huge cutbacks is nothing but scaremongering.

Speaking of Dublin, housing standards have been improved in the last few years. In my area of Finglas housing standards were deplorable some years ago because of low cost schemes. However, the 1978 standards are a credit to the local authority. The Minister has said that the Department will do everything possible to remedy housing defects. We can achieve better housing conditions with even less money if we spend the money wisely and keep our building standards up. The Minister is completely aware of the problems in Dublin housing estates. The builders responsible for the schemes in my area were engaged in low cost building. An IRS report stated that builders were not spending the money provided, they were building cheap houses, and they had been forced by the Department and the Corporation to return to these estates and rectify the shoddy work they had done.

People argued today about country areas and the number of unemployed, but nobody can get anybody to work in those areas. I would not say that applied to my area, where there still is unemployment but the figure has dropped and the position is better than it was this time last year or 18 months or two years ago. It is a fair point to make that there are many people on the dole who are working in some way. It would be helpful if the register were divided, as Deputy Reynolds suggested earlier, into those who will not or do not want to work again and those who are working. If the latter were weeded out we could try to solve the problems of those who are unemployed. Nobody denies that unemployment exists, but with the present structure of the register it is very hard to know how many exactly are unemployed. Everybody here, I think, will tell you that they find that when they suggest to people that they should apply for the summer jobs with the local authorities, these people are not interested in working for that kind of money because they are getting more elsewhere. Certainly some of them probably have to work because they could not live on what they get on the dole. But there are others who can find no work. The register should be weeded out and the money possibly utilised in a better way. I would rather see the available dole money each year given to those people who are totally unemployed.

Earlier I omitted to mention the recent nursing dispute. Many people said the Government had no interest in the nursing profession but were prepared to use them, that the nurses were doing a great job, that they were all Florence Nightingales. People on this side of the House fully appreciate the tremendous work done by the nursing profession over the years and their dedication. It has become obvious in the past week or so that the Minister is on top of this problem and that shortly an adequate solution to the nursing problems in this area will be forthcoming, that it has almost been worked out by the Minister. The nursing profession, while they realise they have been hard done by over the years, with problems of trying to live on a small basic salary when not on night duty or something like that, suddenly realised that they should have been seeking an improvement in their conditions years ago. There is total understanding of that attitude on this side of the House and the Minister has been working very hard on the problem. We can see in the papers that a solution has almost been found and that an interim report of a commission will become quickly available if the problem is not solved before that. We know that the Government will be very happy to see the nurses with a proper salary structure.

Most speeches today dealt with the EMS, but people forget that there are many other areas, and many other things have been done in the past few months. While people have been watching one national issue tremendous work has been going on in many other Departments and people in the various constituencies fully realise this. It was suggested earlier that we are losing popularity and support, but any backbencher knows that the people realise that we are living up to our manifesto. We did not just bring out a ten or 14 point plan and then throw it aside. We know that each Department is working in accordance with what was stated and, within the moneys available, they are doing a very good job.

In the course of this debate I want to talk about the Taoiseach and his contribution in a number of interesting respects since the Government came into office and in particular since the summer. I want to talk about the economy and about jobs, prices and incomes, and education. These are areas in which I am personally interested and are all vital areas for the future well being and development of the country.

First, I want to draw the attention of the House and if possible of the people to the fact that when the Taoiseach stood up this morning to move this formal Adjournment Debate motion he did more than that. He moved the adjournment and then said in his quiet, unassuming way that the intention was that the House would adjourn until 31 January. I do not know if this fact is widely appreciated, because if it were there would be a howl of protest that this House should be adjourning in these days for more than a month. It is not only not necessary, it is possibly even dangerous.

The Dáil can be recalled at any time by the Taoiseach.

I am quite aware of that, but we must take intentions as they are stated, and if the Taoiseach has moved the adjournment of the Dáil until 31 January, it would appear likely at the very least, that we shall not come back until then. Everybody knows that the Deputies, including the Deputy interrupting me from the opposite benches, will be working hard for the greater part of what is called a recess, in our constituencies. But the point is that unless the Taoiseach makes a later and contrary decision there will be no Dáil scrutiny of the activities of this Government or of any of its Ministers until 31 January. That fact should be widely known and widely resented.

And the Deputy is making sure that it will be resented. It is an ordinary normal recess.

To the end of January?

Deputy Horgan is in possession.

We are trying to help Deputy Horgan, who is not very long in this House, and probably does not know——

The Deputy can make his own speech.

I am making the point that I used the phrase "in these days" because these are extraordinarily important days. We are likely to have an EMS decision perhaps after this House goes into recess.

The Dáil can be recalled. I am not going against the Deputy in this matter, I am assisting him.

The Minister could be of more assistance to me by not interrupting me. Given the advent of the EMS and the other things that we are talking about, it is a rather long adjournment in the circumstances, to put it mildly. To my mind, this is fairly typical of an attitude which seems to develop with great rapidity whenever Fianna Fáil come into office, whether as a result of an election in which they defeat a Government or whether they succeed themselves. It is a slightly imperial attitude to the people and the Dáil—keep those who matter in subjection by fear and let those who do not matter have bread and circuses.

As a simple instance of this attitude I would quote what the Taoiseach said during a series of exchanges in the House on the question of the appropriate role of the Government Information Services in relation to the public broadcasting services. On Wednesday, 8 November 1978, the Taoiseach said that the job of the Director of the Government Information Services is to ensure balance and impartiality. He was referring to RTE. He misdescribed the person concerned, as he later admitted, when he told the House in response to subsequent questions from me on 29 November 1978, that he was actually talking about the Government Press secretary. Accepting that he misdescribed this person in the heat of the moment it is still true that he made this statement about the role of the Government Press secretary and that when pressed to withdraw that statement in relation to the role of the Government Press Secretary on 29 November 1978, his silence was eloquent. In other words, he believed then and he still believes that the role of the Government Press Secretary is to ensure balance and impartiality in RTE. If he cared to deny it at some stage the atmosphere would be clear, but he was given an explicit opportunity of denying that statement and refused to deny it.

I would like to contrast that attitude, which I described as an imperial attitude and one which flies totally in the face of the spirit of the Broadcasting Act which laid the duty of ensuring balance and impartiality in RTE on the authority appointed and subject to dismissal by the Government for that purpose, with the attitude of the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy J. Tunney, as reported in The Irish Times of 9 November 1978 when he was addressing the general conference of UNESCO in Paris on 8 November.

I should add that in considering questions relating to the mass media my Government holds firmly to the view that there are certain fundamental freedoms which enable the media to carry out their work in an impartial way, so that matters of legitimate public concern can be fully and freely discussed. Control or rigid supervision of the media by public authorities is no guarantee that questions of public interest will be presented in an objective and balanced way—Indeed its effect is often quite the contrary.

This is the classic Fianna Fáil Governmental line, one attitude for the benighted foreigners abroad——

On a point of order, I wonder is this kind of allegation that has been made about impartiality in Fianna Fáil and the misinterpretation of the Broadcasting Act in order? We have only to look at where the two former directors of the Government Information Services are now——

Political charges as such, whether they are right or wrong, are in order. If any allegation is made against a Member of the House and it is brought to my attention or I hear it, I will have it withdrawn but political allegations are part and parcel of the proceedings here.

(Interruptions.)

The simple point that I am making is that this is a classic example of the Fianna Fáil governmental attitude, one gospel for the benighted foreigners abroad—at home, the mailed first and the velvet glove. This has always been their style especially in relation to the broadcasting media and it is something to which anybody who is in the broadcasting media should pay proper attention.

There are even as of yesterday and today substantial differences between the Taoiseach and some of his Ministers in relation to certain fundamental matters. Take for example the question of the European Monetary System. We had intervening in this Adjournment Debate today, with all the panache of the US Fifth Cavalry, the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry coming in to tell us that it was the sterling link which was the cause of all our problems and, once we had swept this nasty piece of international fiscal obstruction out of the way, we would be all fair set for wherever we were going. If the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry thinks this aspect of our negotiations to join the European Monetary System was so important why did the Taoiseach not refer to it once in his speech in the EMS debate yesterday morning? There is not, I grant, a direct contradiction but it is, to put it very mildly, extraordinary that something which the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry considers to be absolutely fundamental is regarded as being of so little importance by the Taoiseach that he chose not to refer to it at all.

I believe that the Taoiseach, in the last few days, has been embarrassed and annoyed by some of the speeches from these benches which compare his policies and the policies of his party with those of the Tory Party in Great Britain. He must have been equally embarrassed, as I pointed out in the EMS debate last night, to find out that it is not among the allies of Fianna Fáil in Europe that help for Ireland is to be found in the context of the EMS but among the socialist parties in Europe. The double irony is that if proof were needed that Fianna Fáil is fundamentally at heart a Tory party we had it again in the speech of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry today when he came in to attack socialists, root and branch, as second only to the sterling link as the source of all Ireland's problems abroad. The classic definition of Tories is that they attack socialists so, after the Taoiseach's embarrassment, here comes the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry as a very large and voluble visual aid to prove our thesis that the policy line that that party is taking most closely resembles that being taken by conservative parties not only in Britain but in other countries of Europe as well.

I would now like to turn to the question of the economy in general and in particular to the question of jobs. We have had since this Government came into office—and more particularly since the publication of the Green Paper—an extraordinary display of professorial attitudes by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development, Ireland's answer to Sir Keith Joseph. We have seen the creation of a smokescreen of frenetic activity and policy making and speech making designed to conceal from the public at large what actually has happened in the period since this Government assumed office.

What was happening in 1977 when the Coalition Government left office and Fianna Fáil assumed office? What was happening at that time—and the figures prove it and cannot be denied—is that employment was rising and had been rising for some time; inflation was falling and had been falling for some time; a whole series of processes had been set in motion, and were to continue for some time after Fianna Fáil assumed office, in those twin aims of reducing inflation and increasing employment. The simple proof of that can be gauged from the fact that the day after the Taoiseach assumed office in this House the live register fell by 500. What economist, what politician, what statistician in his right mind would claim that the fall of 500 in one day was due in some miraculous way to the arrival of the present Taoiseach on those benches over there?

Of course it was not due to that. It was because policies had been inaugurated, decisions had been taken, things had been set in train which were having that effect on the country and continued to have that effect for quite some time while every Minister in this administration went charging around the country for the first four or five months opening things in the glory of being back in office. It was the brand new red-painted chromium-plated Fianna Fáil fire engine arriving on the scene long after the fire had gone out, its firemen pouring water into the upper stories of the house and creating far more damage than the fire itself could ever have done, others of their members hacking down with their hatchets and reducing to matchwood doors that were unlocked in an attempt to get into the house. Finding that the fire was out did not dissuade them; they had to pretend that without their arrival on the scene with their brand new gleaming fire engine the whole house would have been destroyed.

In fact the opposite was true. What happened was that their extraordinary mix of policies, while they had certain beneficial effects in certain areas, upset a number of very carefully balanced economic factors and produced within a very short time substantial problems which they are only now realising they will have to sort out.

The Taoiseach made great play of the fact that the number of people in employment over the last 12 months has gone up by a very substantial figure. That is true but we must look at that figure in context. The context in which we are looking at it is that of Government policy, especially that outlined in Development for Full Employment. That says clearly that the first thrust in employment creation will be in the State and semi-State sector and after that it will be up to the private sector to reciprocate. When we look at the grand total of those new jobs, assuming for the moment that they have been filled—all of them have not been filled—and if we ask ourselves how many of those are in the State and semi-State sector this year and to the end of 1977 and we look at the Government's projections for the origins of the next 20,000 jobs and the 20,000 after that, we will see that there will plainly be a distinct tapering off in the role of the public sector. The private sector are now being asked to respond.

It is our belief and one which has been backed up by frequent utterings by the private sector, that they do not see themselves in the business of mopping up unemployment to suit the Government. Mr. Hugh Munroe in a recent article in Hibernia said that any industrialist who is in business to provide jobs is not an industrialist but a philanthropist. Industrialists are in business to make money, not to provide jobs. If they provide jobs they will provide them as a by-product of making money. We do not deny that stimulating the private sector will create jobs, but we deny that it will create enough jobs to soak up the serious long term unemployment which has always been one of our major problems. We do not believe either that the role of the State and semi-State sector should be confined merely to the provision of service jobs in areas where employment can be rapidly expanded. We know that those service jobs are needed. There must be much more State involvement in industry than has been the tradition up to recently for any State or semi-State involvement in employment creation to be radical and far reaching.

When the Labour Party publish their detailed proposals for a national development corporation the Government will be able to see exactly what we mean when we talk about direct State involvement in the job creation area. We are waiting for a plan from the Government. The Green Paper, Development for Full Employment, is only a discussion document. It is certainly not a plan. I doubt the Government's ability to deliver a reasonable and rational, much less a radical, plan. We do not get plans from the Government benches, we get plots. The people on the other side are plotters. The chief thing they plot is how to stay in office for as long as possible at the least possible expense to themselves.

I spoke earlier about the effect of the policy initiatives taken by the Government in certain areas as spanners thrown into very delicately balanced economic mechanisms. There is one area where this has been classically proved true. That is in the area of housing. The famous £1,000 grant we have been talking about had barely touched the fingers of the unfortunate house purchasers before it vanished into the pockets of the builders. I suspect that a number of other measures had the immediate result of inflating the demand for houses beyond the point at which the present supply system for them could possibly meet it. The logical effect of that, as every serious unbiased economic commentator has pointed out since then, is that because houses were scarce and there was a demand for them the price rose to something far beyond their real value in non-inflationary terms to the people who were to buy them.

I have already spoken on this on the Labour Party Private Members Motion and I do not propose to go into it in any detail. It is a classical example of the over-enthusiastic fireman approach of Fianna Fáil, throw a few pounds around and everything will work out marvellously. Things are not as simple as that. We need more sophisticated, more subtle economic initiatives than the Government have provided since they came into office.

There is another item, which would be of interest to the general public, on which we should have a detailed reply from the Government. This is an answer to the simple question: why are we still paying on some grades of petrol 15p a gallon more than they are paying in Northern Ireland? I can think of no excuse for this other than the Government's unwillingness to tackle the oil companies, which have effectively created a cartel in petrol prices here. Before Fianna Fáil assumed office the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy was vocal in his apparent intention, which luckily for him did not find a place in the manifesto, to remove us from the outer zone agreement, which at the moment effectively allows the petrol companies and not the Government to fix the price of petrol. We have heard very little about that from the Minister since he assumed office. The motorists who are still paying 15p a gallon more than their counterparts in Northern Ireland have probably already calculated how many 15ps it takes to make up the cost of the car tax which the Government removed. There should be firm action by the Government to reduce the price of this essential transport commodity. Motorists will not get this from the Government. I believe that early next year we will see for the first time under a Fianna Fáil Administration, the price of the top grade petrol going up to £1 a gallon. The Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy will find that very difficult to concede.

I would like to turn now to the question of incomes. It is strange that, for some reason I do not really understand, despite the many speeches by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development, in which he has told us that real disposable income has gone up by 8 per cent this year, the same conclusions and the same assessment of the economic situation is not widely shared by the people actually earning the wages and paying the prices. The Irish Press, a newspaper which, in virtually all things, apart from its editorial on Northern Ireland, is to be listened to with great care wrote an editorial on 13 November last stating:

Many workers today are frustrated and angered about the shrinking value in real terms of their wage packages, sorely hit by the inflation of the past five years...

The Coalition Government were in power for three and a half of those five years but Fianna Fáil were in office for one and a half years of that time. The editorial went on to say:

...and with the Government trying to limit wage increases to 5 per cent, they see little hope of a correction of the imbalance within the present framework.

That is the voice of The Irish Press speaking on behalf of the many trade unionists who read that paper. They may not have heard the Minister for Economic Planning and Development or, perhaps, they did not believe him if they heard him. Let us accept for the purpose of argument that real disposable incomes have gone up by 8 per cent, the real question there is: whose incomes? The percentage rise in some incomes is obviously greater than the percentage rise in others, and it is possible for percentage rises in some incomes to be accompanied by percentage decreases in others. Even assuming, on an average basis, a percentage rise in some incomes by 8 per cent we have to look ahead to what the Government plan to do next.

What the Government plan to do next is spelled out clearly in the options presented for discussion in the Green Paper, Development for Full Employment. The implications of what that discussion document contains have been spelled out in turn with ruthless honesty by the NESC in their comments on the document. Regarding table 2.7 which refers to the implied growth in certain components of personal income for the years 1977 to 1980 along the lines of development for full employment, they say that if the proposal is to be implemented in any foreseeable way the figures will be as follows: in respect of domestic wage and salary earnings outside agriculture, 3 per cent per year; agricultural income from self-employment and other agricultural income, 8 per cent per annum; current transfer payments which comprise social welfare benefits, zero percentage per year. In other words, this is starting at the end and going backwards. According to the Government's strategy there is not to be any increase up to 1980 in real terms in the purchasing power of social welfare benefits. There is to be a 3 per cent increase in real terms for domestic wage and salary earners and there is to be more than twice that percentage—8 per cent—per year in the agricultural sector.

The unfairness of this hardly needs to be spelled out in any more detail, but in the same document the NESC point out, in relation to crude comparisons of relative tax levels, that in 1977 more than 15 per cent of schedule E wages and salaries was paid by way of income tax, that a comparable figure for farmers' income is not available but that it is known that 1 per cent of agricultural income from self-employment was paid in income tax in 1977. There is a gap to be bridged there, but if these proposals are to be implemented that gap will be widened rather than bridged. The council are upset particularly by the Government's intention effectively to peg social spending. This council are representative of employers as well as of trade unions, and they point out that it is not adequate to hold constant the level of social welfare payments in real terms, especially when real incomes in the community are increasing. It is pointed out that it is widely accepted that poverty is about relative if not absolute deprivation and that the council would wish to see a real increase in per capita income maintenance payments. The Green Paper gives no hope of any such real increase. Indeed, the price movements during the past few quarters have if anything suggested that the real value of present social welfare payments is being eroded by the fact that the price rises in respect of food—and social welfare recipients spend a much greater proportion of their income on food than do other categories—is much steeper than the increase in respect of other commodities and products on which these people do not spend so much.

This, then, is the writing on the wall so far as social spending is concerned. It is the line taken by the Government in respect of development for full employment. We have not heard that line being departed from in any way significantly by any spokesman for the Government. As my final example of the threat this poses to our social services, I will talk briefly about the threat it poses to education. The section about education in the Green Paper is one of the most mealymouthed statements on education that I have ever known to come from a Government. It is couched more in terms of regret that they cannot think of a reasonable rationale for cutting expenditure than in terms of a hope that real expenditure will be increased. I would have argued that, for example, education should find a part in a discussion paper of this kind in the infrastructure section and not in a finance implications section.

Education is a developed mental activity on the part of the State, on the part of the private interests engaged in it and also on the part of both those adults and young people who are benefiting from it. The other day the Minister for Economic Planning and Development in an exchange with Deputy Kelly was very scornful of a point of view that the Deputy had advocated. When the Deputy suggested that there was a difference between service jobs and productive jobs, the Minister said that the Deputy was talking in terms of old economics. But if ever I saw an example of old economics, it is contained in the section on education in this Green Paper. As an illustration I will quote a sentence from page 1 of the document Observations of the Higher Education Authority on Paragraph 7.33 in the Green Paper “Development for Full Employment”:

It should be kept in mind that these high levels of benefit, paid for by all taxpayers, accrue in large part to a small and relatively privileged section of the community who also enjoy the prospect, as future graduates, of relatively high earnings.

They are referring to higher education grants. The Government's proposals indicate a 19th century view of education. They regard education as a commodity, as something in the marketplace, which is of use only to the people who receive it. The Government view this old-fashioned and simplistic approach to education as part of an argument aimed at increasing radically the fees payable by students in third-level institutions. I am glad to note that the HEA, at page 7 of their document have concluded that:

it will not be possible to transfer any significant proportion of the cost of higher education from the Exchequer to those who benefit from it merely by increasing fees. Such a policy would put many courses, especially university courses, beyond the means of many students unless a State-administered loan scheme were introduced.

That was the judgment of the HEA on this quaint and old-fashioned idea, but there is a better answer, and this is the answer given by Professor Brendan Walsh in his comments which were published by the ESRI in their document "A Review of Irish Economic Policy”. Professor Walsh says that increased public expenditure on education can potentially enhance the productivity and employability of those seeking work, that money spent in this manner should not be regarded as a non-productive transfer payment but rather as an outlay with considerable potential for yielding a social and economic return in the future, that this also yields direct employment effects through the expansion of the education system. That is the new economics, but the Government's Green Paper is full of old economics so far as education is concerned.

There are two matters also in relation to education to which I should like to refer briefly. One of these relates to primary education. The Taoiseach in a major speech—a solemn utterance as it was delivered in Maynooth—on 3 March 1977—delivered himself of the opinion, as read for him by the present Minister of State at the Department of Education, and I quote:

That portion of our education system up to minimum school leaving age is the only part which is shared by the vast majority of our people. It also happens to be the most underfinanced part. My Party is concerned to provide much better facilities for this sector...

What has happened in this sector since this Government came into office? It is true that new teachers have been provided, but they have been provided in a smaller proportion in the primary sector than in the post-primary sector. The capitation grants for primary school pupils have been increased, but this is the increase to which the previous Government were committed. Even at this late stage, there is no sign of the increase which the Fianna Fáil manifesto promised would be introduced immediately. This has yet to take place.

There is one other aspect of primary education to which I feel I should refer, and that is the refusal of the Minister for Education to make funds available for the purchase of sites for multidenominational schools on the same basis as he has—generously, I might say—made them available for all Irish national schools. I have one project of each kind in my constituency so I might be accused of special pleading, but these are not the only projects. There are many others like them.

In the same speech the Taoiseach spoke at considerable length and depth about two things, the need to revive the Irish language and the need to unite the people of Ireland. He related both of these fundamental Fianna Fáil aims to the educational system. In relation to multi-denominational education he said:

Some of the ways I have suggested for trying to build friendship bridges include cross-border economic and cultural co-operation and encouragement of meetings between young children from different religious and cultural backgrounds. In this context I have raised the issue of a small pilot scheme of interdenominational schools on a number of occasions.

Later on in the same address he suggested:

Where a majority in a community wish to establish a single denominational school that is their constitutional right and the state has a corresponding obligation to provide it....

Where a clear majority want a multi-denominational school in a viable school situation they have similar rights.

Since coming into office this Government have put their money where their mouth is in relation to the provision of sites for our Irish national schools, but in relation to the other national aim, which I would consider to be at least as important, the aim of uniting the people and the children of this part of the island and eventually the island as a whole, across the deep denominational barriers that divide them, there has been a flat note. The Minister for Education has told me in this House that it is not his intention to extend the scheme of special help for all Irish national schools to parents trying, in the face of desperate financial obstacles, to create and found the type of school which I have been describing and to which the Taoiseach himself has been committed on at least an experimental basis.

If the Government are serious about the two national aims they should put their money where their mouth is. They should recognise that the present structure of our primary education system effectively discriminates—not, strictly speaking, in religious terms—against those who cannot lay their hands on the necessary cash or credit to pay for sites for national schools. There is a self-evident need for special Government assistance for site purchase for these schools. Before the election the Taoiseach spoke of pilot schemes. We have not seen a single pilot scheme of multidenominational education started and financed by this Government since they came into office.

Finally, I would draw the attention of the House to a splendid article by the present Minister for Education in The Irish Times of 4 February 1975 and headed “The Fianna Fáil attitude to the Government's education plans” which is a comment on the 1974 Coalition Government decision. One paragraph of this reads:

No reasons have been given in the proposals for refusing independent university status to the colleges in Cork and Galway. This is an unpardonable omission. Since July, 1968, these colleges have lived in that expectation. They should be immediately freed. The Federation of University Teachers——

whom the Minister has not yet met——

——urges that Maynooth College, in view of its accelerated expansion, should have "the option of independent status".

There has not been a peep out of the Minister on the question of when this famous Universities Bill will be provided, although that is something that in 1975 he said should be done immediately. He assumed responsibility for that portfolio in 1977. Not only are we still told that this Universities Bill is on the long finger but we are being refused any assurance that St. Patrick's College, Maynooth, will be given independent status without which it will lapse under the tutelage of the Catholic Hierarchy and end up perhaps a different kind of educational institution from the full university which it is entitled to be.

In this Government, in relation to education, the Minister for Education in his first Estimate was given about £5 million nett for extra teachers and maybe £1.5 million nett extra for a few more things. Any other developments that he has overseen have been achieved merely by moving around money within the Estimate and by cutting, for example, the free school books scheme savagely. But he has been given £5 million, £6 million or £7 million in his first estimate to put up the higher education grant and to do a few more things like that. He has been told that he can go away and chew on that now for at least two or three years because there will not be another bob for him until the next election. We are now serving notice on the Government that this strategem will not be ignored and will be widely published, because it indicates that the writing is on the wall for social spending in general and for the educational service in particular. We will be reminding the people of this throughout the period of office of this Government and we will not let them forget it when the next polling day comes.

I said here last week that when this Government took office 18 months ago they did so with an overwhelming mandate from the electorate based on economic and social policies that had been put before the people. These policies were intended to deal with the economic crisis which faced the country then. We had record unemployment and the worst inflation rate in the EEC. Listening to Deputy Horgan, one can sympathise with him because he was endeavouring in opposition to portray in his speech a situation that even he, by his own admissions in that speech, knew was unreal. For example, he said that at the time of the change of Government, employment was rising and inflation was falling. He failed to say that confidence in our economy was also falling, and very rapidly. This is the basic difference that exists between now and the position of 18 months ago.

I will come back to employment later in some detail. Before doing that I would like to comment on the other points made by Deputy Horgan. He referred to plotting and planning. I am not sure what he intended in his speech, but I suspect that there was some sort of plotting and planning, of I am not sure how constructive a nature, contained in that speech. He spent the first 10 or 15 minutes trying to prove that there were technical differences between some comments of the Taoiseach and some comments of the Minister. He did it in no convincing way and I believe not even to his own satisfaction. I have referred to what he said about inflation, and I remind him of what the Taoiseach said this morning when he referred to the inflation rate for this year being about European average and about one-third of what it was three years ago. The reason I say that is that he quoted from an article relating to the inflation growth over five years. I am sure Deputy Horgan, being basically an honest man, would agree and must be satisfied that there has been a substantial improvement in that area created by the confidence in our economy by the return of Fianna Fáil to power.

The Deputy referred to education; more of the details of that were taken up by other speakers in the debate. I should like to remind him again how selective he was in some of the areas he mentioned and indeed in some of the quotations he made. He credited the Minister at least with having increased the number of teachers; he was complimentary to the Minister there. Then he went on to say that capitation grants had been increased because of a decision of the previous Government——

I did not say that.

But he failed to say that that decision was taken by that Government in the month of May 1977, a very significant month.

They were still the Government.

The Deputy will have to admit it was a very significant month after a long period.

I want to deal with some matters affecting the Department of Labour and to prove in no uncertain fashion to the House, particularly in the area of employment, the progressive steps and the measures taken by this Government—referring to the restoration of confidence I mentioned earlier—that have substantially improved not only the employment situation but what is even more important, the employment prospects for our young people especially in the future. I want to say as well that oft-times the Department of Labour become, in the public image, a Department concerned only with industrial relations. There are very many other aspects of the Department of Labour that deserve to be mentioned, particularly in view of the progress made over the last 18 months. It is as well to mention that the subject of industrial relations was discussed in a three-hour debate here last week. For that reason I intend to concentrate on some areas of a more positive nature. I shall commence by referring to manpower policies, their importance and the importance of integrating them into our social and economic planning.

As the House is aware, recently I established a new manpower consultative committee comprised of people from both sides of industry, from the trade union movement, from the employer organisations together with the essential State agencies covering the areas of industrial development, of training, of manpower placement, along with some other interested parties. The first meeting of that committee was held yesterday. It was my privilege to chair that meeting and it will be my privilege also to continue to chair it during my period of office. The function of that committee is to advise on the role of manpower policy in the economic and social development to which I referred. The committee is broadly based and will be concerned particularly with industry—when I refer to industry I mean both sides of industry—and with Government Departments involved in the whole field of manpower policy and planning and with education, which forces a vital part of manpower planning and is also represented on that committee. I might mention as well that I believe there is a tendency to under-estimate the contribution which manpower policy can make to our economic and social development, indeed perhaps also a tendency to understate the progress we have made in developing manpower programmes.

The two central elements of any manpower policy were and are the placement and guidance functions of the National Manpower Service and the training activities of AnCO. These services have been augmented in recent years by a number of schemes aimed at increasing the number of jobs. The manpower service was established in 1971 with the main objective of aiding job seekers to find suitable work and employers to find suitable employees. This objective is achieved through the placement service. Of course, that service is composed of skilled and trained placement officers with backgrounds of experience in industry, both sides of industry, and commerce, in that particular area. The service has been extended significantly this year. It is important that the House know that. Thirty-eight new placement officers will have taken up duty by years end, bringing their total number now in the 30 manpower offices throughout the country to a figure of 93. I do not have to emphasise the importance of this 40 per cent increase in the vital area of placement because, if we have not a structure, if we have not the personnel available for a placement service such as that—and I must emphasise that that service was allowed run down, from a manpower point of view, by the previous Administration—particularly at a time of high unemployment it imposes an unnecessary and harmful strain on an already too small or reduced personnel. It has been substantially increased. I shall come later to prove the advantage of that improvement. In addition to the present activities there have been improvements also in the guidance services. Three additional assistant regional directors were appointed. Indeed I intend to establish guidance units in all of the eight manpower regions as quickly as possible.

We come now to the number of job seekers registering with the service, which is expected to be 67,000 this year, a slight increase over the 1977 figure. However, what is of particular importance—and this is one of the points I advance to prove the point I made earlier about restoration of confidence—is the increase in the number of vacancies notified. That is a significant figure. We expect that in this year 42,000 vacancies will be notified, which is an increase of 50 per cent on the figure for 1977. That is a very substantial increase, a very significant one, which commences to prove the point about what a restoration of confidence in our economy has meant—that the number of vacancies notified to an improved National Manpower Service, by year end, will be 50 per cent over what it was last year. This has an additional important factor, that is, that our placement service has the necessary staff and confidence of employers generally enabling them to translate that confidence into having vacancies notified to them so that they can help young people especially; indeed all age groups, but young people especially, are inclined to turn to the National Manpower Service and it is important that they have that kind of confidence. Certainly that is a very substantial improvement in an area that had not been given any attention by the previous Administration.

Let me come now to the improved live register figures. In other words, to the improvement in the employment situation, to which the Taoiseach referred this morning. He went on to say that the live register was not the only indicator where improvements were seen because quite a number of young people going into employment are not taken from the live register at all. Here I am reminded of some former Ministers, now on the other side of the House—especially a quotation of my predecessor in the early part of 1976—forecasting that by the end of that year the unemployment figures would come under 100,000. They did not; they did not come even near it, nor indeed did they do so until Fianna Fáil were back in office. The live register on 1 December this year shows just over 98,000 people as unemployed. If we compare this figure with that of last year it represents a decrease of 8,637 and indicates an unemployment rate of 8.6——

It does not take emigration into consideration.

There is another vital factor here of which the Deputy may not be aware, that is that the comparability of the live register with previous periods has been adversely affected this year by the very welcome relaxation since 1 October 1978 of the contribution regulations for single women and widows applying for unemployment assistance. The Central Statistics Office estimate that the live register figure for 1 December would have been 2,300 less had the regulations remained unchanged. We are talking, therefore, about a figure approaching 11,000. That does not mean—let me emphasise this—that there is any cause for complacency or that we can afford to be complacent because much remains to be done, but it is important that I should emphasise the fact that the substantial drop in the live register again reflects the return of confidence to which I referred earlier.

The Taoiseach mentioned the inflation figures and the importance of controlling inflation. He also referred to the unemployment situation and here I should mention another factor to show that our Government's commitment is not only in the employment creation area but that the results of some of our policies in the maintenance field have shown that the number of notified qualified redundancies in 1978 on present calculations—there are only about two weeks to go—should be about 2,500 less than it was last year. This indicates a still further improving employment situation in keeping with the Government's programme.

Speaking of redundancy, Deputies may be interested to know that following a review of the scheme, and after consultation with both sides of industry, I recently submitted to the Government proposals to amend the scheme. These proposals have been approved by the Government and during the Christmas recess I intend to circulate a Bill designed to amend the Redundancy Payments Acts, 1967 to 1973. The pursuit and attainment of full employment has been identified by this Government as the single most important social and economic objective. I believe this to be so and I believe it is imperative that we as a nation should believe it also.

The figures I have given are an indication of the progress that has been made and of our commitment as a Government. Part of this progress can be attributed to two schemes administered by the National Manpower Service, schemes designed to increase or maintain jobs. I refer to the employment incentive scheme and the employment maintenance scheme. The employment incentive scheme was introduced by my predecessor and I am quite prepared to commend a worthwhile effort by him. It was introduced by him but it applied only to the manufacturing and agricultural sectors. Despite many pleas from me and many requests to him to extend the scheme to the services, to building and to the hotel sectors he failed to do so. However, I extended these schemes in September of last year and I will now give some figures to prove how useful that exercise was from the point of view of creating jobs, especially jobs for young people. Again, the success of these schemes portrays a return of confidence.

The employment incentive scheme reduces labour costs to the employer by the payment of premiums in respect of additional eligible employees. As I said, the scheme has been extended since September 1977 to the construction, the hotel and catering industries. Expenditure on premiums this year will be almost £4 million in respect of some 10,000 jobs. Compare that with the figure for 1977. The total for 1977 was less than 2,700. In other words, there has been a fourfold increase. The youth figure contained in that 10,000—mainly school leavers—is 4,000 compared with a figure for 1977 of something slightly less than 700. That is a very substantial increase indeed and it is very, very significant.

The jobs created are permanent. I mention this because a Deputy on the opposite side, who was obviously not aware of the scheme, asked whether or not the jobs were insurable. The jobs are permanent. From the figures I have quoted the House will appreciate the success of this scheme and understand what that success portrays.

The employment maintenance scheme, introduced in the budget of 1978 by the Minister for Finance, enabled my Department to assist firms in the clothing, footwear, tanning and textile industries, industries currently experiencing difficulty in international trading. A sum of £5 million was provided and payments have been or will be made by the end of the year in respect of some 30,000 workers from 3 April 1978 to date. Again, that is an indication of the Government's concern not only to create new jobs but to aid employment-intensive industries as well. A subsidy was called for on many occasions in previous years but it was not granted by the then Government.

The most recent scheme initiated by the National Manpower Service is the work experience programme proposed by the Youth Employment Action Team. This programme has specific regard to the problems of young people entering the labour market. Its purpose is to give young people an opportunity to learn about the work environment by giving them practical experience in a range of different jobs. It provides a very important bridge between the schoolroom and the outside world. We know from our own experience that the young people who find it almost impossible to get into their first jobs are those with no experience of the workplace. This scheme endeavours to bridge the gap. It certainly has been very successful. Under the programme priority is given to young people between 18 and 20 years of age who have left the educational system but have not yet got their first jobs. After an initial induction training period they are placed with both public and private employers. The programme lasts six months during which time they receive an allowance of £20 per week from the employer who, in turn, is recouped by the National Manpower Service. The National Manpower Service has responsibility for running the programme. The programme was launched on a national basis at the beginning of September 1978 and up to 8 December more than 1,400 young persons were placed in firms throughout the country through the medium of work experience programmes.

I regard this as a very useful exercise, an exercise in providing young people with experience of the workplace. To date 110 participants have withdrawn from the programme, the vast majority, I am glad to say, to take permanent jobs. It is proving valuable because in the short-term it is giving experience to the young person and in the long-term it is improving his job prospects and will continue to do so. This scheme, the figures for which I have quoted, should be viewed in a positive way as an indication of the success of the programme in achieving the basic aim of providing work experience. I am satisfied that by the end of December over 1,500 young persons will be participating in this.

The other main agency involved in implementing national manpower policy is AnCO. The number of training places in AnCO-owned centres has increased by nearly 400 from December 1977 to 31 October 1978, making now a total of just over 3,500 places available. Taking account of all AnCO direct training activities such as community youth and the spare capacity training programmes, the numbers in training increased from 3,900 to 5,000 over the same period. The number of apprentice training places at 31 October 1978 was 1,423 and it is planned to continue the growth of these places so that all designated apprentices will have off-the-job training facilities by 1982.

To prove the point I am making I think I should compare. I mentioned the figure of apprentice training places as 1,423. The figure for the end of December 1977 was 1,094; in other words there was an increase of approximately 350 apprentice training places. The number of training places for adults in AnCO centres at the end of October this year was 2,105 with well over 6,000 trained since 1 January. This included some 1,000 girls and women. That refers to direct training within AnCO. Another welcome development is that the percentage of girls and women forming that total has increased substantially during the current year.

The situation in regard to placement proves my point about the return of confidence and the general improvement. Placement in the main courses over the year was 67 per cent on average. The percentage figure for 1977 was less than 50 per cent. I will select a few areas at random. The placement figure this year for Athlone is 90 per cent as against 55 per cent for 1977; the figure in Ballyfermot this year is 75 per cent as against 42 per cent in 1977. Understandably I will mention Cork where the figure for this year is 70 per cent as against 64 per cent in 1977. It should also be mentioned that there is a substantial increase in the numbers training in Cork because of another extension there. These are positive figures indicating the return of the confidence to which I referred.

Training facilities have been expanded within the new centres. New centres have been provided in Athlone, Tallaght, Waterford and Cabra and there have been a number of extensions. Last week I had the pleasure of opening one in Cork. A further 134 training places have been provided there. The growth of facilities in existing locations, including Athlone, enabled new types of training to be introduced. This included new courses of particular interest to women which were also matched to local industrial development. The expansion plans for AnCO centres are continuing and will be augmented as required in the Government's measures to reduce unemployment.

Spare capacity in-company training and training in various institutions has enabled many people to be trained in very diverse occupations. There were nearly 650 in training at the end of October and a total of 1,661 have completed training since 1 January this year. I can summarise the figures for AnCO training by saying that in 1978 AnCO will have trained 15,000 persons. The figure for 1977 was less than 12,000.

As Deputies will be aware, the availability of grants from the European Social Fund has been of considerable assistance in recent years. This has helped in developing our vocational training facilities, and in each year since our accession to the European Community the level of Social Fund assistance has been increased. I am pleased to be able to say that the rate of increase in the total of our grant approvals from the European Social Fund in 1978 over the corresponding figure for 1977 should exceed very substantially the amount attained previously from one year to the next. I expect grant approvals for 1978 to be in the region of £29 million, representing an increase of about 50 per cent on the 1977 figure of £19.3 million. The House will note how often during the course of my contribution I have mentioned an increase of 50 per cent.

I am also glad to be able to say that we have been able to take good advantage of recently introduced improved payments procedures from the Social Fund to the extent that in the first 11 months of this year we received payments of grants amounting to about £18,750,000. This is a very satisfactory situation, especially when it is taken into account that payments in the whole of 1977 came to just over £8 million.

I have already referred to the difficult employment situation being experienced by youth. I am glad to be able to tell the House that by the end of this year nearly 4,000 young people will have benefited from the schemes which the Employment Action Team put forward in their submission to me and which were approved by the Government. This is a very satisfactory outcome, all the more so when account is taken of the unavoidable delays which arose in the implementation of the ideas put forward by the team. This level of success is perhaps the most eloquent reply which I can offer to those who criticised the team in the past. They were vocal in this House in the earlier stages; their silence was more noticeable in recent times.

So was the Minister's.

The Deputy was late coming in and missed the figures. I hope he will read them in the Official Report.

The Christmas peace prevailed up to now.

The environmental scheme is designed to provide employment, mainly for young people, on works of environmental benefit to the community. The programme, which is administered by the Department of the Environment through the local authorities, commenced in March 1978 and at the end of October a total of 1,935 persons, of whom approximately threequarters were young people, were employed.

A somewhat similar Department of Education scheme aims specifically at providing job opportunities for young workers through projects aimed at improving local amenities. The scheme relates to local projects sponsored mainly by youth and sport organisations. During 1978, 133 projects involving the employment of almost 1,000 young workers were approved. The corresponding figure for 1977 was 390 and I do not have to spell out the improvement there.

I have referred already to AnCO's Community Youth Training Programme which is designed to provide basic training coupled with work experience for young people under 25 years. Projects are sponsored by community organisations and the results of the work usually form an improved or extra amenity for the community. The numbers in training under the programme during 1978 will be 1,800.

I am glad to be able to say that the various youth employment schemes which I have mentioned may now benefit from Social Fund assistance as a result of a recent decision by the EEC Council of Ministers which I attended. The assistance which we have been receiving from the fund to date has been almost entirely directed towards vocational training programmes, for the simple reason that the scope of the fund has been confined largely to vocational training. When my party were in opposition we repeatedly made the case that the fund should be extended in scope to enable it to assist employment in a more direct and positive way through assistance towards job creation.

The Council of Social Affairs Ministers have recently given approval to the extension of the scope of the fund on the lines we advocated so that it can assist the promotion of employment for young people. The extension will come into operation with effect from 1 January next. As a result, we are confident that the Social Fund will be available to help financially the development of various youth employment schemes. Undoubtedly this is a most important development and one which should certainly help us to increase further the benefits we derive from the fund.

As I have said, many of these schemes resulted from the proposals of the Employment Action Team. Today I received the team's second set of proposals and I propose to have them examined as quickly as possible in consultation with my Cabinet colleagues. The Government's decision on the proposals will be announced as quickly as possible. The team's success is all the more praiseworthy when it is recalled that it had to work outside the framework of existing job and training structures so as to avoid any unnecessary duplication of the efforts of existing Government job-creation and training agencies. Notwithstanding this constraint, with the proposals contained in their first and second submissions the team will have outlined opportunities over and above the Government's expectations.

I am aware that I have given many figures during my contribution but I believe it was necessary to do so to indicate the contribution which these Government schemes are making to economic and social development. The figures are impressive and have contributed in no small way to the reduction in the number unemployed and to providing a better labour force.

In brief, the use being made by job seekers of the National Manpower Service increased with some 67,000 job seekers registering this year. There has been a significant increase in the number of vacancies notified to the service at 42,000—an increase of 50 per cent on 1977. Substantial progress is being made in alleviating the problem of youth unemployment through the various employment schemes in operation for young people and the manifesto target of 5,000 will be exceeded. Some 10,000 workers will benefit from the employment incentive scheme this year and 30,000 from the employment maintenance scheme; 1,600 young people will benefit from the work experience programme and AnCO will train 15,000 this year. That proves the points I made about the return of confidence.

Despite this progress there are certain manpower areas that are in need of development or expansion. I have been aware of the need to develop the employment service to handle the increasing demands made on it. The expansion of training services over the next five years will be on a massive scale. Substantial efforts will be necessary to achieve the increase in the number of training places required over the next few years in order to meet the Government's targets for more trained manpower. I have asked AnCO to enlist the co-operation of industry in providing training capacity in excess of AnCO's own resources, which will be fully utilised also. In addition, the community youth and the spare capacity training programmes will continue to be developed to the full. Possibly the manpower area most in need of development in the short-term is the provision of an adequate information service as an aid to developing policy and in preparing and evaluating our programmes.

Some improvements have been made in our manpower information, such as the introduction of the sample labour force surveys and my Department's annual school leavers' survey, and more are envisaged including the computerisation of some NMS operations. I intend also to have the service publish regularly classified job-seeker and vacancy data and the service will be discussing with interested parties the classifications to be used. Nevertheless I accept that despite these developments much more requires to be done to provide the level of manpower information we need. This area is to be discussed by the Manpower Consultative Committee early in the New Year.

There is also the question of labour shortages which has received increasing attention of late. This is, of course, another indication of the improving employment situation since it is generally that when we are coming out of a recession such shortages occur.

Last week in the Dáil in a three-hour debate we dealt thoroughly with industrial relations. It is a matter of concern to the Government, I hope to both sides of this House, to both sides of industry and to the community generally. As we had that debate last week I do not intend to go into the matter in detail again. However, I should like to finish by a brief reference to recent developments in worker participation. I am pleased to report the successful conclusion of elections in the B+I Company and the ESB, two of the State bodies covered by the Act of 1977 dealing with worker participation. Within the next few days a third company, Bord na Móna, will be in a position to announce the results of polling held in the company. I understand that elections in Nitrigin Éireann and in the Sugar Company will follow as soon as possible and that in the case of the remaining companies—Aer Lingus and CIE—arrangements will be made for the holding of their elections following the completion of consultations.

I trust the advent of employees as board members will add a new and fruitful dimension to the functioning of the enterprises and that the elected employees will make a positive contribution to their boards deliberations because they will bring with them a wealth of practical knowledge and experience of their operations. The operations of the system adopted for the State companies under the 1977 Act will be monitored by the European Foundation for Living and Working Conditions in conjunction with the Irish Productivity Centre. The information gathered from this initial experiment will be applied to the extension of the Act to other State enterprises and in the longer term in the promotion of worker participation in the private sector. It is primarily in the long-term that we can look forward to the benefits associated with the extension of worker participation and the development of improved communication and consultation leading to an improved industrial relations climate and an assured commitment on behalf of employees to the overall welfare of the enterprise. Consequently, my Department are preparing a discussion paper which I propose to have published next year on all aspects of worker participation including profit sharing.

All of the programmes and schemes I have mentioned are contributing towards the development of a comprehensive employment and manpower policy. I look forward with confidence to the development of that policy. The Government's performance to date has been creditable, particularly when compared with the inept handling of our economy by the previous Government. There has been a return of confidence, increased employment and reduced inflation.

About 14,000 emigrated last year.

Do not be silly.

The figures cannot be denied.

The Minister has only two minutes left.

We will continue on that course. We will continue to give people the employment opportunities and prospects and to control inflation. That Deputy was silent for four years when he was on these benches, and we hardly saw him in the House.

Listening to the Minister one would wonder why the Garda were on the point of resignation, why 4,000 nurses protested in public, why there are so many strikes and why so many young people are looking for jobs. In fact I wonder why we are trying to get into Europe if things are so good here. I was beginning to think that the Christmas spirit was motivating the Minister and that he believed in Santa Claus. The Minister convinced me that he does by the way he ended up.

Many fully educated young boys and girls are walking the streets of Dublin looking for jobs and many are going to England and America looking for them.

These are the realities, and the Minister should stop talking nonsense.

The prophets of gloom—just like when they were over here.

From listening to Fianna Fáil Deputies speaking, one would think that they got into office in June 1977 for the first time when the reality is that they have been in office literally since 1932, almost all my lifetime.

We were out for four-and-a-half disastrous years.

Fianna Fáil need not think that they can erase all the horrors of their maladministration, the emigration ships, the dole queues, the lack of interest in satisfying the needs of the under privileged and the handicapped. If history tells the story correctly Fianna Fáil will be held responsible for the bad administration since the 1930s.

Listening to the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry earlier today I got the impression that he too was living in a dream world. The Minister's contribution was so comical that I will not go into it.

There are two major issues before us. One relates to economics and the other to the national issue. As Fine Gael spokesman I have been saddled with the responsibility of trying to create new relationships between the North and the South.

It is an indictment of the system we operate that a party elected with 84 members should have only two Deputies in the House. It is shameful. I am sure many unsuccessful Fianna Fáil candidates would have been more sincere in their efforts to represent the people here. It is the Government's responsibility to provide a quorum.

Security—on which I am also spokesman—and politics run on parallel lines. The security in the whole of Ireland is our responsibility, and the ambivalence on this point is a weakness in our approach to Irish unity. We cannot honestly assure the Northern Unionists that they will be safe in an all-Ireland settlement. We cannot show them by performance that we mean what we say. This is one of the basics on which we are falling down. Security is a serious matter; it is not a political plaything, and I will not behave as did the present Minister for Justice when he was in Opposition in relation to it. The present Minister for Justice held the then Minister, Senator Cooney, responsible for every bank robbery, every shooting and every crime committed here. That was unfair of Deputy Collins. Anyone going through the records of these debates will see that Deputy Collins' whole contribution during that period was of destructive politics. That is not my attitude. I retain the right to criticise the Minister but I pledge my support and the support of my party to the present Government in trying to come to terms with the serious situation which exists here.

Throughout the world crime is on the rise. Urban crime is particularly frightening, but rural crime is as frightening to those affected by it. The basic reason for crime is because we have never examined our responsibility as elected representatives, or the conditions necessary to aid socially underprivileged and politically underprivileged people. All these people are driven to crime and end up in jails. We deprive their families of their companionship; we punish the innocent as well as the guilty. That is happening because this Parliament, and particularly this Government, have never been big enough to realise that Ireland comprises 32 counties and four provinces sadly divided by two political systems.

The Irish are the people who live here. They are not the Catholic, the Gaelic or the Fianna Fáil Irish, but they have been born of families who have lived here for generations. If we aspire to Irish unity, if we believe in the full meaning of it, we have got to accept that a quarter of the Irish people have validly held views, and if we want to give them equal citizenship we must reject all aspects of the suggestion of second-class citizenship. We must recognise their right to practice their own religion, to express their own cultures and, above all, to hold their own political views. If we do not believe in that, the argument of Provisional Sinn Féin is the right one: let us tell them to get to hell out of here, that they have no right in this island.

What have that party done to achieve Irish unity, the party represented in this Parliament by 84 Deputies, only one of whom is in the House now? What has been their contribution to Irish unity since they came into being in 1927 and into Government in 1932, on two basic principles: the unity of Ireland and the national language? I will leave the progress of the national language to other people to analyse. Irish unity has not been a subject in respect of which the Fianna Fáil Party or any member of Fianna Fáil can hold up a flag and say, "We have served the Irish people".

They have codded the Irish people, not alone those in the South but the nationalist-minded people in the North. They have made them believe foolishly that either by physical force or constitutional means they had the power to bring those people into the Utopia of a united Ireland. Fianna Fáil have driven them away from living with their neighbours, their fellow Irishmen in the North of Ireland; they have driven them to violence, to killing their fellow Irishmen in the North. They have taught them to steal, to rob and to kill, and history will record that as being Fianna Fáil's contribution. As long as the violence was in the North of Ireland, as long as the robberies and the shootings were in the North of Ireland, as long as they were shooting the RUC and destroying the system in the North of Ireland, who cared, who gave a damn?—it is not our system and the quicker it is destroyed the better.

We never thought that the innocents who were being killed in the North of Ireland, whether they were called Protestants or Unionists or old age pensioners or infants in prams, were Irish, that perhaps they believed in Irish unity more than some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies who have been elected on the pretence that they had it in their power, individually and collectively, some day somehow to unite this country.

I have no doubt that the press when ignoring my statements on the North of Ireland, have been saying: "When this man talks about Northern Ireland any more he switches people off." Is it not a terrible indictment of the national and provincial press and of southern society that if anyone talks about his own country—that is what I am talking about—he becomes a bore, he is talking about irrelevancies, abstract nonsense, about people up there who should behave themselves and stop killing one another? That is the attitude of the present Government. I do not often agree with anything Deputy Blaney says on this subject but he said in Donegal last week that by their lack of interest the Government were not doing anything about Northern Ireland.

I was sitting here listening to the Taoiseach in an adjournment debate last June. I had got an advance copy of his script and I turned the pages to discover what he would say about Northern Ireland. He spoke in glowing terms, and I thought that if I had been a Protestant sitting in the gallery I would have wondered if the Taoiseach were talking about my Ireland. He spoke about the Irish people, about the Irish economy, he told us to buy Irish and to support Irish industry, and he spoke about the Irish Government. He said his party were the largest in the Dáil because they had received the greatest support from the Irish electorate. He spoke about the unity of Ireland, about a nation on the move. He referred to "this nation" and "this country".

I wondered would that Protestant in the public gallery, who had come down here to examine our system, have thought the Taoiseach was talking about him. I submit that the Taoiseach was not talking about the unemployed in Strabane, or about something going wrong in Ballymena. He was not talking about supporting Irish industry in Larne or about the "Buy Irish" Campaign in relation to goods manufactured in Newry. He was talking about a 26-county Ireland.

These statements have been repeated in his 21-page script today. He used terms that are inappropriate to the island of Ireland. If we talk about the unity of Ireland, if we talk about Irish, the people, surely we should spell out exactly what we mean and not exclude not alone the one million Protestants that Deputy Lynch talks about but also the half million Catholics who live North of the Border. We have excluded them and told them: "You are not part of this Ireland."

A few moments ago we listened to the Minister for Labour talking about the direction this nation must go in. Which nation, which people? Whom are we talking about? Are we talking about the Irish people and about Ireland or have we accepted Partition? If Fianna Fáil have accepted Partition and excluded those people in the North of Ireland, let us be honest and say that we have excluded them.

As public representatives in the parties which we have the honour to be members of and of the people who have elected us, it is our duty to be honest with them. If we are to lead them in the proper direction we must express clearly what we mean. I have yet to hear a member of Fianna Fáil, although for the first time to my knowledge the Taoiseach mentioned it today, use the word "Republic of Ireland". They will talk about Ireland and about Ireland's entry to the EMS.

It is not Ireland's entry to the EMS: it is the entry of the Republic of Ireland. If we say that the Taoiseach is negotiating for entry for Ireland, then we mean we will take in the Six Counties with us, and if that is the proposition the Taoiseach will be putting before the House before we go into the EMS, I will support it. There are too many unanswered questions, too many social, political and economic implications for us to go in in advance of that other part of Ireland which we call Northern Ireland. These implications are so far-reaching that I do not understand them and I venture to say there are very few Members of the House who understand them. There are men of high economic qualifications who understand clearly the implications of EMS membership for Ireland but who do not understand the implications if we go in in advance of Britain, because that means we are going into the EMS in advance of a quarter of the Irish people, a quarter of the island of Ireland.

I do not know whether other Members of the House have the same fear in this regard as a Donegal Deputy. If we decide to go into the EMS I wonder what will happen if the British Government decide to devalue their £. I wonder how many busfuls and coach loads of people will go from the South, from counties other than Donegal, to buy goods in Northern Ireland.

There is a statement from John Taylor in today's newspapers. He is not one of my heroes, far from it. He asked real questions about things that are happening—he was not painting a picture that is not there. He sees many people going across the Border to avail of cheaper groceries and other consumer goods of all descriptions. If we go into the EMS and our punt becomes stronger than the British £, it is logical to say that we will be able to buy more in Northern Ireland.

So, it will be more attractive to them to go in there to spend their punt, but if we are being caught up in the political game between Germany and France on one hand trying to persuade or pressurise the British on the other to come into the EMS—as I suspect we could be—the British can play their final card, which is devaluation. If they devalue by 10 per cent, may God look to the small groceries, the small businessmen and the small people who live very close to the Border in the Republic, because many of their customers will go across the Border to buy their goods.

Not only that, but in the reverse situation the farmers or cattle dealers who come from the North to buy our livestock will be able to find livestock cheaper in the mainland of Britain, in Scotland, Wales and England. There is no use in pretending that with modern means you cannot stallfeed cattle to the extent that you can be almost self-sufficient, because it has been done in countries where grass is a rare commodity. The implications of entry for the Republic to the EMS are so serious that I would say to the Government: "Wait." We went into the EEC in partnership with our fellow countrymen in the North of Ireland. That meant we had to go in with Britain. But we can do the same thing now. We can maintain our independence, retain the right to negotiate terms for our own entry, but I think it is wrong and could be serious for us to go in in advance of Britain because it means going in in advance of one-quarter of the people and the island of Ireland. There are far too many unanswered questions for me to be happy about it.

I know that the British Government will go into the EMS immediately after the general election there. That means that irrespective of the result of the election—it will not matter whether Margaret Thatcher or James Callaghan is the next Prime Minister in Britain—it is my guess, which I think would be shared by many people, that the British nation will go into the EMS. That is only six months away or, perhaps, less than 12 months. I do not see the gain for us in going in. I have heard the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Economic Planning and Development use glowing terms, nice sounding talk, very convincing to southern so-called Republicans who believe in the super image of being Irish, but I wonder what it means when they say: "When the terms are right for us, we will go in." When the terms are right for us they will also be right for Britain. At that stage I think it is right that we should go into the EMS.

Without doubt there is political deadlock in the North of Ireland. The fault is not confined to the two communities there. We have contributed to that deadlock and will continue to play our part in the continuing deadlock unless we change our attitudes and our thinking on what Ireland is and who the Irish really are. Unless we do, there will be a continuation of violence to the degree that people will become more sophisticated. They will learn to make more lethal weapons, to kill by more horrific means. Are we to have repeats of bloody Sunday in Derry, bloody Friday in Belfast, the Miami Showband, the Le Mons massacre or the McGurks' Bar where a family were almost wiped out in Belfast, or the shooting of the people in the Top of the Hill Bar in Derry, or repeats of bombings in Monaghan and Dublin. Surely these terrible deeds that have been carried out mostly by one Irishman against another tell us that all our policies have been wrong. The policies we are talking about are the policies of republicanism, nationalism, unionism and loyalism. It is no use pretending that it is loyalism or unionism that is wrong. It is no use saying that the present people believe in republicanism—they do not understand the meaning of republicanism. I heard the Minister for Foreign Affairs address Deputy Blaney last week in the House and criticise what I assume to be the Provisional IRA because their understanding of republicanism was different from his. His understanding of republicanism as far as one-quarter of the Irish people is concerned, namely the Ulster Scot or the British Irish, is just the same thing only it is not decent to be using a gun: it is more respectable and, of course, public representatives are respectable; they talk about republicanism; the other fellows believe in it more so and use a gun.

Whether we like that or not those are the thoughts that occur to the northern Unionists, and, if we believe in Irish unity, they are the people who hold the key to Irish unity. Unless we reach a firm understanding with them and accept them for what they are they will never be part of us. That is the cold reality. This codology is portrayed by Fianna Fáil particularly. Fianna Fáil Deputies who stand before their own convention at general election time or new candidates seeking election seek it on a mandate of Irish unity. I wonder if they were all present here how many could put up their right hands and say: "I have been in the North of Ireland so many times since I was elected" or even "I was there once. I have spoken to northern Unionists. I have shaken hands with northern Unionists. I have respected northern traditions because they are Irish." Is it not a fact that not one of you give a damn about Northern Ireland, about the northern Unionist or Northern Loyalist? When you get back benchers pointing the finger across the House at me because I do this sort of thing, suggesting that in some way I am a freak, that I should not be doing it, not alone are they dismissing the rights of northern Unionists to Irish nationhood and citizenship but they even question my right to be part of it. This superman mentality that has invaded the minds of Fianna Fáil Deputies is so far removed from reality that they even fool themselves.

I have said in many public debates that I wonder how many Fianna Fáil Deputies, how many Fianna Fáil candidates standing before their conventions at general election time, would honestly say: "I have no interest in Northern Ireland, no interest in talking to the Loyalists, no interest in trying to understand one-quarter of the Irish people. I do not know where Northern Ireland is. I have never been across the Border. I am not interested in Irish unity and if you elect me I will do damn all about it." How many honest people, believing in the philosophy of the Fianna Fáil Party, holding deep loyalty to that party and being genuine supporters of that party, paying out of their own pockets and believing the things they are being told, thinking that they have the best party in the country, the party that could serve this part of the country best, would give their votes to nominate such a candidate?

May I ask those who have selected their candidates, if they can hear me through the medium of the press, radio or television, how many of the candidates they selected, voted for and nominated to represent them in the massive victory they had in 1977 have even gone to Northern Ireland since?

If the policies failed as the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs have said and if new policies must be found to resolve these differences let us be clear about what we are saying. We are not saying that loyalism or unionism has failed; we are clearly saying republicanism has failed or perhaps, more correctly, what we have moulded republicanism to mean has failed. I do not believe that Tone had a sectarian thought in his mind when he spoke about republicanism. I do not believe that Mitchel had anything but good in his mind for the Irish people or that Emmet subscribed to this kind of thinking. I believe that Parnell, Butt or any of the other people who made their names in Irish history, men that people like me are very proud of and that Irish people have always had a sense of pride in, subscribed to this kind of thinking either. They were not Gaelic Irish or Catholic Irish but Irish. When we talk about a united Ireland we should be clear about what we mean. We mean the unity of the people of Ireland. If that has any meaning whatever it means all of the people of Ireland without exception. One cannot exclude one-quarter of the Irish people and logically continue an argument about Irish unity. If one wants those people, such as the Ulster Scots who are now known as the British Irish, to be part of the family of Ireland they must be recognised for what they are and that they have rights on this island. We have got to tell them they will have a full part to play in the Ireland which we are trying to build. We should tell them that we are not only interested in the farms they own, the businesses they run or the property they have because that is what they are thinking about. We cannot exclude them from the family of Ireland.

In a report in one of the national papers one Sunday, the Minister for Foreign Affairs was reported as telling the Irish people, north and south, about a conversation he had with Cyrus Vance, the American Foreign Minister, at Shannon Airport the previous day. We read that Mr. Vance had reassured him that President Carters' initiative for pumping money into Northern Ireland was there for the taking, that there would be more money for Northern Ireland people if there was a settlement in the North. On the same day's paper the Taoiseach told the nation, north and south, that we should take away the steel wall, the massive amount of money which Britain was giving to the North, so that we could force the people of Northern Ireland to the debating table. We had a senior Minister speaking authoritatively on a serious subject, telling us that he would give more money to the North to have the matter settled, and the Taoiseach in a radio interview telling Britain that she should take her money away from Northern Ireland.

We are only fooling ourselves if we believe that the Northern Unionists are being prevented from joining us by the money Britain is giving to Northern Ireland. It used to be "Brits Out", then we had "British withdraw" and then we moved into "British intent to withdraw". We were actually telling them that we would like them to go whenever they were ready to go; we wanted them to move out, whether it was in 50 years or in 100 years.

The most recent statement I have heard is that the British policy on Ireland has failed. The British policy in Ireland was never to unite the Irish. The British policy on Ireland never took into account the unity of the Irish. If we criticise the northern Unionists we should at least be honest with ourselves. Their politics is more consistent with their position than our politics are with us, because they never said they wanted a united Ireland. They were always against it. Everything they did in their Parliament, every Act they brought in, everything they preached on public platforms, was consistent with the basic political position.

That has not been the case in this part of the country. We talked about Irish unity but we did not do anything about it. I believe we were talking about a Gaelic Ireland, not a united Ireland. Our whole approach to national unity has been wrong. I am talking about the unity of the people of Ireland, not the removal of the Border, because that can go with the stroke of a pen. Two Ministers sitting down together, drawing up an economic plan, could make the political border between north and south like a boundary between Cork and Kerry in ten minutes.

The Taoiseach spoke about Northern Ireland today and his words really meant that we believe in the unity of Ireland by agreement and by peace. Where is this policy of peace? I have been 17 years in this House and I have never seen it. I want the Fianna Fáil Party, before this debate is concluded, to tell us where it is, because apart from the economic problems this part of the country has, the major one is the national one. I hope the Government take a greater interest in it. I know that the Taoiseach has tried to change the direction of that party and I know that people on this side of the House have given great support to the man who has tried to drag the tail of that party away from the civil war position. He has succeeded, but there are still people on the back benches of the other side who no more believe in the policies of Jack Lynch than the Provisional IRA do.

Will the Deputy identify them?

Does the Deputy want me to?

Yes, if the Deputy is able to.

Perhaps the Deputy would look at some of the advertisements which were put in the provincial papers by a Fianna Fáil candidate during the last general election. If the Deputy had looked at the papers circulating in the west of Ireland during the last general election he would know whom I am talking about. That man has pals in this House.

The unity of Ireland is the unity of the people of Ireland. The Taoiseach, his Ministers and his backbenchers have a responsibility to ensure that the tragedies of the last ten years will never recur. If they are not honest with themselves and with the people, they are a pack of hypocrites. I know there are decent men in the back benches over there who resent me calling them that, but I am not directing that remark at them.

The British Government have an obligation to do more about the unity of Ireland. When people in this part of Ireland talk about British withdrawal they are not saying that the British should get out of Ireland, but that the English, the Scots and the Welsh should make up their minds that after so many years, particularly during this century, they do not have a role to play in the two Irelands, north and south. We would be moving in the right direction if the English, the Scottish and the Welsh would allow both the British Irish and Gaelic Irish to settle down to some better type of understanding, but the obligation for all of this rests squarely on shoulders of the present administration. All that I or any other member of Opposition can do is to speak in critical terms of the lack of interest in national question on the part of Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and every other Minister Fianna Fáil. I would prefer that we had a full House this evening. Then I could ask the Fianna Fáil Deputies to indicate who among them has lived up, since his election, to the basics of that party's beliefs—national unity and the Gaelic language. I wonder how many people Fianna Fáil have talked as fellow Irishmen to fellow Irishmen with northern Unionists.

I was taken to task by a senior member of Fianna Fáil for having the audacity to circulate among members of the Dáil and Seanad documents that were sent down here by a former SDLP member of the Northern Ireland convention requesting me to have the documents circulated. With the consent of the Chief Whips of the three parties I had the documents circulated, but afterwards a Fianna Fáil Deputy asked me what right I had to circulate Union propaganda or, as he referred to it also independent nonsense from Northern Ireland. Did that Deputy not realise that I had as much right to talk to that other Irishman about his problems as the Chief Whip of Fianna Fáil had to talk me? Had I not as much right to do this as had the Taoiseach, for instance, the right to go to London to talk to James Callaghan or to Margaret Thatcher or to any other British politician about the affairs of my fellow countrymen? Let us understand what is meant by references to British withdrawal, because a quarter of the Irish people consider themselves British. That is the situation regardless of whether we like it, but these people are Irish and they wish to be as Irish as I am but they do not wish to be Gaelic Irish.

Westminster can leave this island by way of any one of several methods. They can leave by unilateral decision on their part. They may leave as a result of international sanctions or pressures or they may leave by our talking softly with them and persuading them to leave. But if they leave without certain guarantees being given to that one quarter of the Irish people, we shall not have a united Ireland. We might have a 27-, a 28-, a 29-or, even stretching the imagination, a 30-county republic but we would not have a 32-county united Ireland. The British will leave Ireland when that 25 per cent tell them to go. For the past ten years there has been a lot of talk from people who presume to speak on the North to the effect that we should get around the table with our fellow Irishmen and talk about the affairs of our country, but this talk is inconsistent if we say at the same time that we will only talk to a quarter of our people on condition that the British leave. It is a sobering thought to consider how many of these people could afford to sit around the table and talk with us if we insist on that condition. Who would listen to them after they had gone back to their own community, to their own leaders and would they be prepared to come back to us again? We know the answers to such questions. Would it not be much simpler for us to say that we do not like the British presence here, that we wish them to go away but that we are not going to talk to the British about the problems of both parts of this country, that, instead, we will talk to our fellow Irishmen, but that it will be all right with us if those fellow Irishmen wish the British to stay as their security, as their first- or second-line guarantee? Should we not say to those fellow Irishmen that we want to share Ireland with them in full partnership?

Would it not be better to assure our fellow Irishmen in the North that we will not make any condition about their joining us, that we want a twin constitutional position, that they should tell us what agreement they can come to with the Catholic nationalist people in the North? We should tell them that in such a situation we would change our Constitution in order to guarantee their position. Is it not time that the Taoiseach was saying to people on both sides in the North that they should settle their differences and that we would be prepared to make our contribution by changing that little piece of paper known as our Constitution in order to guarantee any arrangement they would have entered into among themselves? This is the only way forward.

What is the difference between our saying that we want the Unionists to join us by agreement of a majority and the statement of the British to the effect that they will leave Ireland when the majority of people there tell them to go? As Deputy Blaney said in Milford last week, the Irish are the ones who are keeping the British in Ireland. It is time that the Gaelic Irish, the British Irish, Catholic and Protestant Irish, pushed aside the extremists on both sides and built an Ireland of which we could all be proud. Then Westminster will withdraw and be glad to.

If there was much more time available to me I would be tempted to follow Deputy Harte, but I have said so much recently on the subject of Northern Ireland that I do not propose now to devote to it the time available to me except to say that I think the Deputy is coming around to a fairly straight-on indication that there can be agreement among the Irish in this country but that there cannot be such agreement while the British persist in remaining, regardless of what guise they adopt. I am not saying anything further this evening on that matter although I may have a few comments on it in the morning. Instead, I wish to continue now on what was a rather hurried contribution last night to the EMS debate when I finished on the note that productivity in this country is the answer to our fears and hopes in so far as the EMS is concerned. If we had productivity and full employment we would not care two hoots whether we entered the EMS or stayed out of it, nor would we need any handout to make it possible for us to go in in the immediate future, I hope that that view is in the Government's mind now because I have no doubt that they are going in and I would not be surprised if they had already made the decision to go in although it has not been conveyed officially as yet. Unless we are fully convinced that our currency, whether inside or outside the EMS, is the only true reflection of our productivity, there can be nothing but disaster for us whether we join the EMS or not. If we regard our currency or that of any other country as a token for work done, then if we had more work done we would have more tokens, or if we had fewer tokens they would be worth more if we were doing more work in respect of them.

How can we possibly achieve that when we have the staggering figure, give or take a few thousand in one reason as against another, of 100,000 of our people unemployed at a time when there is an abundance of absolutely essential work to be done? People are crying out to have it done. What sort of work is this? It is providing the houses that our growing population have not got. It is improving the roads that are creaking and groaning under the over-heavy loads of present-day traffic and machines and juggernauts commuting between here and the Continent and across the channel. It is the services to back up our housing and the general infrastructure of sewerage and water. These are the things that are crying out to be done at the moment. When this Government came into office I had great hopes that they were going to make a real go of it. We could have produced these things while we paid 100,000 of our population on average almost as much as it would cost nett if they had been employed producing these essential, useful and desirable commodities. These things are costing today from 30 per cent to 50 per cent more than they would have cost if the Fianna Fáil Government, after taking over from the Coalition in 1977, had gone about their business as their manifesto would seem to have indicated. That manifesto helped them to get the overwhelming majority that they got, although they would have got the majority if they had had no manifesto at all. It was not a question of seeking to put Fianna Fáil in when the vast majority of our people voted as they did in 1977. It was rather a conviction that they had to get the Coalition out. Fianna Fáil made all the necessary sounds and said all the necessary things. After the election we had a very fast adjournment, which I deplored. We should have been talking all that summer through about what we should begin with in the autumn, rather than putting the House in mothballs, going off and making no real impact before the autumn. By the time the autumn arrived the Fianna Fáil majority who had swept into office a few short months before had stagnated. They had lost the enthusiasm, drive and euphoria that was theirs to utilise to get the population back working and thus lift ourselves out of the dilemma that we are still in. Idling our way out cannot but lead to further disaster.

Since that autumn there have been slight indications of faint-hearted efforts by the Government, who were doing far too little to make any impression on the unemployed or on the economic growth of this country. We had indications of more people being employed as gardai, teachers and doctors. That is all very desirable, even if not entirely essential at the time. All of it was good stuff had it been backed up by ten times as many being put into employment that would create employment. I am talking particularly about the construction industry which embraces houses, roads, schools, hospitals, clinics, sewerage, water schemes and what have you. All of these are within the competence of our construction industry which, at the time Fianna Fáil took office, had on the register of unemployed 25,000 more people than had been employed in that industry three years previously. We were back to 40,000 in the construction industry from a peak three years before of 65,000. If we had put people to work on the sites at the various jobs I am talking about—for which we have oodles of plans that have been delayed since sanction because allegedly we have not enough money to do them all together—and had we made a bold start after the summer of 1977, by now we could have expected that, having geared things up, we would have recovered that 25,000 who were then unemployed.

For every fully employed person in the construction industry, on a buildings site, on public works or public buildings one other employee is required in the factories and in the workshops, perhaps with a little delay. Maybe six months would elapse before such people would come fully on stream, but on they would come. We should have increased that 40,000 up to 65,000 by now, 18 months after the Government came in. With this great opportunity and with backing such as no other Government since the foundation of this State had ever had, they should have been able to do that. Sadly, at this stage they are no longer capable of generating the sort of confidence that would have enabled them to raise the moneys that they would have needed in order to get more people out of the dole queues and on to productive work. If they had been employed they would by now have created employment for another 25,000 of our unemployed in the workshops and factories fabricating more and more of the off-site components for our construction industry. I am not exaggerating when I say that one on site fully occupied on stream in the construction industry means one off site in the workshops and factories producing the components. It would be fine today if, instead of unemployment bordering on 100,000, give or take 5,000 or 10,000, it was down to 50,000.

It is also a fact that for every three wage packets created and being paid per week for any lengthy periods in the service industries we require one more to service those. Therefore, if you get 25,000 on site and 25,000 off site in the year ahead, we would be moving slowly into full gear in which we could add one-third to the 50,000, bringing it to well over 65,000. If we had that would we not consider that the unemployment situation in the country was already defeated, that we were already really in business? Think of the situation that would be obtaining now, the upsurge that that sort of movement would have brought about, the contentment as well as the employment it would have given, the new houses that would have been occupied now but that have not even left the drawing board at this stage. Think of the economic activity, the business activity, the absolute regeneration of the confidence of our people so sadly shattered not only by the Coalition of the last period but indeed even by the previous Government, neither of them not to be blamed in full because galloping inflation had really demoralised our people to the extent that they were in 1977.

Why then do we find the economic wizards now posing as the spokesmen for Fianna Fáil; why do we have them now coming along trying to bamboozle us with figures as to whether it is 11,000, 14,000, 19,000 or 20,000; that the live register does not count any more, that which was the only yardstick we had known over the years is thrown out the window; we are not allowed consider it any more? What we are being told is that the Government are guaranteeing 20,000 jobs or 25,000 jobs, they may not quite make it but they will go very near it. If we point out that despite that, they have not reduced the number of unemployed by a like amount we are told that we were never promised that—that in this purely technical jargon that now stands for policy statements, we are entitled to look at the small print, the invisible print, the print that is not there at all to decipher, before an election, or in a policy document of a major party, that what was regarded heretofore as an ordinary statement of fact, that is, that we will put 20,000 more people into employment—the corollary always has been that it is the net that counts and not the gross. We are being told now that that figure of 20,000, though not quite accessible at this time, for various reasons, is the fault of others outside, in the private sector, in the unions; these people are to blame if we do not reach it. We are being told: but even if we were to reach it more is being done than is shown in those figures because our population is rising: rising in what way? Rising in a way we have not seen since 1970 when, for the first time not only had emigration ceased but there was a gradual building up of our population not alone through natural causes and events but by the return of numbers of our migrants and emigrants who had left these shores in past or in recent years. That has now changed, not dramatically, for the good reason that the attractions across the channel do not exist as they did ten years ago. There would be a flood out of this country on the emigrant ships again if times in Britain were as good now and if employment was as available as it was in the past. If it is only rearing its ugly head at present in a slow, crawling fashion it is not because of our attraction to the unemployed to remain here half so much as it is the lack of attraction, the lack of work and the poor times there are across channel in Britain.

These are the facts as we know them. Nobody knows them better than the people from my part of the country and along the western seaboard. Indeed in my own county we have the highest percentage of unemployed in the country. What are the Government doing about it? What about the roads which are becoming impassable, not capable of carrying the type of traffic now on them, a county that has no rail service. Heretofore at all the old abandoned railway stations we had goods depots, which have been taken from us in the recent past, to be followed by the most recent decision of our State enterprise, CIE, that the goods depot in Derry is now to be abolished and we can go to Sligo as our rail head. That is the score so far as rail is concerned.

We have no shipping service in or out of Donegal in any scheduled way, nor does there seem to be any wish on the part of this Government, or indeed any other Government, even if it must be subsidised, to provide that much needed outlet for a county that has not got a rail service of any kind. Neither do we have any air service, none whatsoever. We are being panned off all too simply in too many places with landing strips, if you do not mind, to serve whom? To serve how many, in what way, while there is undoubtedly the opportunity at least equal to that of the Cork region in Donegal, serving Derry and Tyrone as well as Donegal, to provide an airport of modest dimensions from which our people could come and go by scheduled service to the main airports of Dublin and Shannon, or across channel as the case might be. No, we do not have that; we do not have the shipping and neither do we have the rail service.

We do not have RTE television except by freak reception. If it was to be measured against the present situation and technological development we might say that we practically have no telephone service either. As I have said, our roads cannot much longer continue to be used as a means of access, which is our only means of access into Donegal. They were never conceived or built to carry the traffic now on them. All too frequently, even after lots of money being spent on renewing, strengthening and building up some of the so-called main roads, we find notices here and there "soft margins". What that really means is that the cart tracks of 50 and 100 years ago are being covered over, gradually a little more being spread out on both sides each time to try and accommodate the traffic, with nothing underneath to sustain them. Those are the type of roads we have got mainly in our county, a county with no rail, air or shipping service; practically no telephone service and only by freak and act of God do we have any television reception from RTE.

What are the Government going to do about it in these times when we have the highest percentage of unemployed in this country in our county; when we have an alarming figure of 100,000 or thereabouts unemployed in this country; when we badly need more houses; when we badly need more schools; when we need extensions to existing and new hospitals built for our people; when we need more water schemes, more sewerage schemes, more public buildings, while we have our people queuing up being paid social welfare with all the demoralisation that that type of living entails?

We could, we should, we can, but will we, even at this stage—18 months removed from the advent of the present Fianna Fáil Government—do the simple, obvious but imaginative thing of deciding that we can and will usefully employ the vast majority of our unemployed of today by putting them to work, not building dry land piers as the British once did, or towers from which the lords and ladies could view the surrounding scenery, but useful things our people need which, ten years from now, will still provide, at two or three times the cost today, while in the meantime, denying our population those facilities they could enjoy and do not, create the activity, growth and confidence our people so badly need.

That would be the true answer by the Taoiseach, his advisers and the other Ministers of the Government would gladly be able to use in talking to the partners in the EEC when they are talking about whether we are going around with begging bowls or whatnot. If we did what is within our own competence— employ our people doing useful work and step up our overall national productivity—we need not give two hoots one way or the other whether the other partners wanted us in the EMS or wanted us out. We would be quite safe, high and dry. Our feet would never be wet or cold if we did this instead of frittering away the opportunity and with the prospect that in the future the gloom would descend even deeper than it is now.

There is no way in which a nation, never mind an individual, can idle its way out of its difficulties but, and this has been proved time without number, as the individual can work his way out of his difficulties so also can a nation. But it must have the leadership, and only a Government can give that, and this Government, while thinking along right lines, have been too puny in their efforts, too unimaginative in their thoughts and concepts and have not had the courage really to put their foot down, get stuck in and get on with the job. We have now an EEC of which we have been a member for some considerable time, an EEC for which I, though somewhat estranged, if not already removed, from Fianna Fáil, campaigned in the referendum that brought our entry about with an overwhelming majority.

I did not campaign with any sort of rose tinted glasses on. I campaigned on the basis that, taking two columns, one for and one against, in the last analysis, taking all the broad spectrum into view, we would lose more by staying out than going in. I still hold to that view and while the counter to that may be things were so much better now than they were then, I admit they are so much better than they were then in any given walk of life, but what we have got to look at is how far have we got in the grand plan that was the concept, through the Treaty of Rome, in the creation of the EEC, which was to close the gap between the not-so-well-off and the better off nations of Europe. That gap has not closed despite the fact that each of the member countries of the EEC may without question be regarded as better off today but, relatively speaking, we are not better off vis-á-vis the other members. We are, in fact, worse off. We are at the bottom of the pile in so far as the prosperity of our economy is concerned within the concept of the EEC.

The regional fund was held out—I held it out much to my regret now—to the people of my constituency and the people of the west in the undeveloped part of the country as the answer to many of the fears that were then being expressed as to what the EEC would mean to them. We held it out, as we were told to hold it out, as was indicated by our Government leadership at the time, that the regional fund would in fact do great things for the undeveloped regions to bring them up on a par with the better-off regions of the south and east. What has happened? That story has not come true and the regional fund is not a big handout that was going to bring the west up to par.

The regional fund is, in fact, largely a fake. It is of such dimensions that it merely fills out the wrinkles in the budgetary bag brought in here by successive Ministers for Finance in recent years and it looks as if that is all it will be in the future. Niggardly though it is, and despite the little impact it may have made, what do we find? I had a reply to a question here tabled to the Minister for Economic Planning and Development. He defended the role of the Government in utilising the fund by spreading it all over the country. His answer to me, in defence of that policy was that, because of the fact that within the EEC our entire 26 counties is regarded as an undeveloped area for regional fund purposes, if he were to confine the use of the fund to the western areas, where it is so badly needed and to the people of which it was promised, he would in fact be cutting the ground from under his own feet when the regional fund amounts for the following year were going to be considered because his partners in the EEC would say: "Not all of your country is undeveloped and, therefore, we will have to reduce still further your regional fund".

This is the greatest nonsense I have ever heard. Theoretically, we are regarded as undeveloped for the purpose of the fund, but there is no convention in the Treaty of Rome or in the EEC that dictates that our Government, elected by the people and operating and administering the affairs of this 26-county State, may not spend that regional fund money in toto in western regions where it is badly needed and for which it was earmarked initially Neither is there anything to dictate why they could not, in fact, spend all of it any one or two years in the one place under the one bracket. So much for all the talk about the regional fund and why it is being spread around. We find multinational companies getting slices of it by the £1 million to keep them in business, people who could in fact give us millions more than we are getting from the regional fund. But what are we doing? We are bolstering them up by taking money out of this all too small regional fund allocation to keep them going.

This fund needs re-examination by the Government. The whole western way of life needs looking at by the Government and if the regional fund, whether it be large or small, is to have any meaning and bear out that we were telling the truth when we sold the idea of entry into the EEC in the referendum of some years ago, then we have to apply it to the areas of most need and they without doubt lie between Malin Head, the southern tip of Kerry and the Beara Peninsula in Cork, somewhere between those two areas and, heaven knows, there is plenty of scope and plenty of need in that area. But that is not being done and that is apparently not intended to be done and that approach is defended by the very man we were given to understand would be the planner of our economic development.

Debate adjourned.
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