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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Feb 1979

Vol. 312 No. 2

Private Members' Business: Mortgage Interest Rates.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the brutal increase in house mortgage interest rates, particularly having regard to the steep increase in house purchase prices, and calls on the Government to take immediate action to alleviate its effects on house purchasers.

This motion deals with the situation that prevails at present with regard to house mortgage rates. The Government came to office on a number of pledges, one of which was that it would be easier to buy a house and cheaper to keep it, or cheaper to buy a house and easier to keep it if Fianna Fáil were returned to power. This evening I want to throw that lie back in the face of those who made that promise because of the hardship the Government's policy is having in relation to house mortgages and because of the brutal increases which have occurred in house prices since Fianna Fáil took office. The simple incontrovertible facts are: house prices have never been higher, the rate of increase has never been greater and the interest rate on mortgages has never been higher. That is a shameful record for a Government who pledged themselves to pay special attention to the housing needs of the people.

These are the facts and I do not care what argument the Minister produces this evening. I have no doubt he will tell us about the increasing cash injection in the housing area. I want him to look at the percentage of the total capital budget expended on housing and explain why it is lower now than it was three years ago. That is the situation in the local authority housing sector too. Despite all the gimmickry and the promises, it is almost impossible for a young couple to save an adequate deposit to buy a house of their own, which is a constitutional entitlement and a natural right. The position obtaining at the present time is that a couple need £3,000 or £4,000 deposit to buy an average semi-detached three-bedroomed house. I do not know how they can do that. People who are unable to get the deposit to buy their own houses may avail of the local authority scheme. The maximum loan is £9,000 and the income limits are so restricted as to make buying a home meaningless because if one gets sufficient money for the deposit, one is almost certainly in a salary bracket where one is not entitled to the loan.

Is the Minister aware of the enormous and traumatic difficulties which the present house finance picture is placing in the way of many couples? I know of young men and women who are undergoing extreme pressure of a psychological and financial nature because of the hardship being imposed on them, hardship which is epitomised by the fact that starting off in life they are expected to save over £3,000 or £4,000 as a deposit for a house. That picture is incontrovertible and regrettable.

I have no doubt that the increasing pressure being put on these couples is contributing in no small measure to the difficulties of the commencement of their married life. I would not be reluctant to say that in many cases this new pressure is adding in no small measure to the conflict and the tension of these newly married couples and in some cases is destroying their chances of having a happy and harmonious married life. In other words, the lack of a house finance policy by the Government is actively eroding the stability of married life for these young couples. That is very serious.

If the Minister consults with experts in this area—psychologists, social scientists, some doctors and so on—I believe that picture will come across. I am not sure if he is aware of the extreme position which obtains at present. If he believes the present position is satisfactory, I would like him to explain why the waiting list in the local authority housing sector, especially in the larger urban areas, is the longest ever. The rational and reasonable explanation for that is that more people have to go on that list because fewer people can buy a home of their own. We must analyse the reasons for that and I would appeal to the Government to ensure that there is a change of heart about the way in which house finance is presently administered and to ensure a change of direction in legislative reform if it is necessary.

The Government, in their Green and White Papers, have paid lip service to all the good they are going to do in relation to housing and home ownership but when one analyses the soft words of the chameleon-like changes of hue, depending on which Minister one is talking to, one gets a situation in the local authority where there has been a constant decline in the number of completions of homes, in the private sector a constant, rapid, inordinate, unexplained increase in the price of houses totally unrelated to any other economic index, housebuilding or otherwise. Since this Government came into power the kind of increase we are talking about is of the order of 40 or 50 per cent in the private house sector. That cannot be explained except by the racketeering and profiteering which has been allowed to go on under this Government. I want to know if the reason that this has been allowed to go on is that some members in Government have a vested interest in it.

Deputy please, withdraw that statement. There is no point in getting into that sort of——

I am asking a question.

The statement that "some members of the Government have a vested interest" will be withdrawn. The Deputy knows he should not make statements or charges like that.

I believe it very firmly.

The Deputy will withdraw it, whether he believes it or not. That type of charge——

How can I ask a question?

The Deputy has made a charge that members of the Government have a vested interest in building.

I did not say that.

The Deputy will withdraw it; that is what it amounts to.

I did not say that. What I said was that I wondered if certain Members on the opposite side have a vested interest in it. I do wonder about that.

That amounts to the same thing. Withdraw it.

Would you explain that.

Yes. It is an allegation that certain members of the Government have a vested interest in building. That is the allegation.

I allege nothing. I asked a question.

The Deputy did not ask a question. He did not ask that certain members——

If I made an allegation I will withdraw it but——

The allegation is withdrawn. That is all right. The Deputy on the motion, please.

I am on the motion. I am asking what is it that prevents this Government from taking the firm and positive action necessary in the private house sector? I do not care what way one wishes to interpret that question; I hope the meaning is very clear. I believe the Government's hands are not as free as they should be to undertake the kind of reforms necessary. If I am not entitled to say that, I will leave the House because there is no point in talking.

The Deputy will not make charges against Ministers or other Deputies.

I have not made any charges. I have asked questions.

The Deputy will not make charges or what amounts to charges.

That is very different. It depends on the question of interpretation.

The Chair is here to interpret and to deal with the rulings of the House. That is all the Chair is interested in. The Chair does not want to interrupt the Deputy but if he wishes to make charges about people across the House the Chair must take action. There is plenty of scope in this motion without having to come down to that level.

I want to ask a question. Why have we this inertia in relation to controlling the cost of private houses? I think I am entitled to an explanation. Why have this Government sat idly by while the price of new houses has soared to an all-time record, while the cost of a mortgage for decent people who are starting life has soared to an all-time record? What causes that basic lack of resolute action so badly needed, action to control speculation in the cost of land for private housing, action to curb speculation in the buying and selling of houses . . . How can the Minister explain the increase of 40 or 50 per cent in the cost of houses since this Government came into power? If the cap fits let them wear it.

I hope the Minister shares my view in this. I am aware of the inordinate degree of hardship being visited on the heads of a growing number of people and the facts are there to bear that out—growing local authority lists, falling commitments to local authority housing completions and finance and increasing difficulties by building societies in relation to the giving of loans—a difficulty the Minister tried to do something about but which effort was too little and too late. The first time we had a situation in this city when people looking for a start in life had to queue outside the offices of building societies at 3 o'clock in the morning to get application forms for loans was less than a year ago. This has happened during the term of office of a Government who said they would make it easier for people to buy their houses and cheaper for them to keep them. That statement by the Government has not been borne out by the facts, and the Minister should admit that pledge has been smashed to pieces.

I ask the Government now to make the finance available to allow people to get 99 per cent mortgages. The Government have a statutory obligation to house people. It will cost a lot more in the end if they are put on waiting lists than giving them the 100 per cent mortgages which I believe could be given by the Government. This would give the massive boost, which we all hear regularly is so necessary, to the construction industry. If the Government did this we could be seen to be sincere in our efforts to treat all the children of the nation equally and to give an opportunity of housing to everybody instead of just the decreasing few who are in sufficiently strong employment positions to be able to amass the small fortune which now constitutes the deposit on a house. It is not so long ago since £300, £400 or £500 was sufficient for a deposit on a house. Now we are talking about £3,000, £4,000 or £5,000 as a deposit in the city of Dublin. It is even more in some parts of the country. Galway, for some mysterious reason, has the highest priced houses in the country. The Government have done nothing about this.

I want to know why the Government have done nothing about this. I do not want vague references to White Paper or Green Paper commitments or figures picked out of the clouds about cash investment. Those mean nothing unless they are taken as a percentage of the total capital expenditure on housing as an ongoing feature of economic activity. If that is done we see a picture of declining interest and declining commitment by the Government.

Apart from the possibility of giving 99 per cent mortgages to people to make it possible for them to live and to start off in life with a house of their own, I believe some other measures should also be taken. The building societies have carried the responsibility of the State in funding private house purchases for generations. We should commend their good work in that area. However, this imposes a growing burden on them. There is no guarantee that with the ebb and flow of national finance at the present time that the essential role of the building societies in this sector may continue as the stable element it has been up to this.

The secretary of the Irish Building Society Association in a recent article in Business and Finance said:

At present more than 70,000 families are buying their homes with the aid of a building society loan but the continued inflationary trend means that a given amount of savings will each year service a smaller number of loans. However, monetary history shows that nothing is permanent, not even inflation, and there are clear indications that the rate of inflation may be tackled.

He said that the Irish Building Society Association welcomed the recent approvals and he went on to develop certain measures that were taken. The general tenor of the article will cause people to be concerned that there could be need to assist the building societies in their financing role in relation to private housing more than is done at the moment.

I ask the Minister to consider, in view of the record level of house mortgage interest rates, the subsidisation of those interest rates. I believe the building societies should be helped to ensure that housing is available for all our people. It is not adequate that a person's stated right to a home of his or her own should be subject to monetary speculation on the stock market, the international whim of financiers and subject, ultimately, to the ebb and flow of finance which is invested where the profit is. That is a legitimate ploy and it is reasonable to expect that it can go on in areas where there is not such a fundamental issue at stake.

When it comes to people's homes I believe that the Minister should have a constant monitoring process which ensures that the repayments on loans are such as to make it possible for people to establish homes of their own without having to force their wives to go out to work and possibly causing some neglect of their families. It is a fact of life that people are now being forced to look around for several ways to finance homes of their own. It is a little easier before they have families, but the burden of repayments at 14½ per cent means that the income which a husband and wife generate must remain a basic feature if they are to sustain repayments. We are now getting a situation where the burden of home ownership is making inroads into the quality of marriage and having some unfortunate effects on the children. This is the impression I get from the people I meet daily. The traumatic effect on people of even buying houses nowadays is so enormous that more and more people are becoming fearful of the whole situation.

People should certainly have to work hard to get their homes but it should be an exciting thing when they get them. They should not have to spend sleepless nights worrying about how they are going to make their repayments. They should not have to pay vast sums out of their incomes to repay loans. Some of them cannot furnish their houses properly and cannot give their children the kind of domestic environment we should all like to see them being able to give them.

There is a great need for all parties in the House to do their best to ensure that this most basic and fundamental issue is dealt with in a more responsible and honest way than is being done at the moment. I am sure I do not have to remind the Minister that the question of home ownership is germane to the quality of life and that it has all kinds of social implications. I am mindful of the fact that many families and their offspring have social problems caused by their home environment. The more we repress the desire for people to own their homes and the more difficult we make it for them, the more we create social problems. That costs us a lot more in the end. There are parts of our city at the moment where the quality of home life and the actual home structure is very bad. We would all agree with that and it is not the responsibility of any particular Government. However, the problem should be tackled.

I should like to see every effort being made to get people out of squalor, overcrowded rooms and so on and I do not see any real effort being made. On the contrary, the percentage of the public capital programme being spent on local authority housing is decreasing all the time. The number of completions has dropped and is continuing to drop. At the same time we find that house costs are going up. In 1977, 6,333 local authority dwellings were completed and 18,215 other dwellings were completed. In 1976, 7,263 local authority dwellings were completed and 16,737 other dwellings. This shows a net gain over the years. Taking the figures for the previous seven years as an indication of our approach to housing, we find that our efforts are only managing to hold at bay the need which existed in the early seventies. Taking account of the increasing population and the increasing number of people seeking to buy houses, we see that this need is not being adequately dealt with.

I believe we are building up an enormous problem. We have the longest ever local authority housing lists and more people than ever living as subtenants with their parents or in-laws. A courageous attempt to tackle housing finance would help to meet this challenge. There is no justification for the enormous increase in mortgage interest rates being allowed to go unchecked by the Government. If it is simply a question of the Government directing that action be taken to keep mortgage interest rates down, the net effect is most unhelpful. I am talking about the commitment of finance which the Green Paper and the White Paper envision and which is referred to as a feature of the kind of policy which the Government intend to introduce. Instead of that honest approach to the matter, we had newspaper headlines about nine months ago announcing a 20 per cent shock for buyers. The increase was forecast as being the same this year, with no attempt being made to tackle the basic issue.

The Government should consider the disgraceful situation in relation to building land and the scandal which exists in that area. Why are we unable to respond to that need? The inertia in this area is in direct contrast to the rapidity with which the Bill we were discussing earlier was introduced. Why is something not being done about the need outlined in the Kenny Report? I do not want to be told that the Government has not done anything about this problem during the past few years. I want to know why action is not being taken now when it is clearly necessary.

We find there is no commitment to any housing philosophy, whether people should live in cities or in county areas. At Question Time last week the Minister failed to convince me that he had a very sensitive grasp of the county/city relationship and the need to retain, in so far as it is possible, the concept of a living city. We should encourage people to live in the city. Instead, the financial policy of the Government in relation to housing directly discriminates against that through the £1,000 grant scheme which applies only in the case of new houses. Most houses in city areas are not new and, therefore, they do not qualify. A couple able to buy a small house costing between £9,000 and £12,000 are deprived of this £1,000 grant. They may want to exercise their right to live in the area in which they were brought up. If the grant were extended to all first-time purchasers of new and secondhand houses, it would create more housing mobility. The small inner city house which would be suitable for many young couples is now more difficult to sell than it used to be. More young couples are going off to clinical suburbs with wall-to-wall housing and no facilities, as is the case in one of the new estates on the periphery of Dublin where there are 1,000 houses and not one shop, school or church. There was not even a pedestrian crossing until the residents blocked the road.

The Deputy is certainly broadening the scope of the motion. The only two items in the motion are mortgage interest rates and the steep increase in the price of houses.

There should be a comprehensive Government philosophy in relation to housing finance and construction and this would involve the elements to which I have referred. Control of land prices is essential. In some cases sites are now more expensive than the cost of house construction. It is a ludicrous situation. Sometimes sites are made more expensive overnight because some operator manages to get the local authority to give planning permission, a gesture which reflects absolutely no intrinsic work or effort by the applicant. The effect in terms of housing finance is that it puts up the price of land and we have seen the inflationary effects of this. The Minister should consider the possibility of making planning permission non-transferable or open to expiration after a certain period of time. He should at least ensure that someone who applies for planning permission will not be able to profit at the expense of people on the housing list.

There are people on the housing lists and some in the subtenant situation who will never be housed. In Dublin we have about 4,500 applicants who want to live in the city and we have the paltry figure of 670 dwellings under construction or at site completion stage. The clear indication is that more and more people will be channelled out of the city to new estates. Why is this so? There are at least 200 acres of derelict sites in the city and Dublin Corporation find that their land bank is only 70 acres. Why do the Government not tackle this situation? Why do they not take over without apology sites which speculators are using for their own purposes? The Government should build houses on these sites. The Minister expressed himself as being satisfied with the procedures available, despite the fact that anyone driving through Dublin must see it as one of the shabbiest capitals in Europe. This is increasingly so because we have not done anything about sites while land prices soar. The cost of a serviced site is now higher than it has ever been in the history of the State.

The Deputy could not be further away from his own motion than he is at the moment.

I am talking about house purchase prices, and the cost of a serviced site is germane to that. In relation to house purchase prices, the finance available for upkeep and maintenance is very weak. I admit that the Minister made some moves in the right direction in this regard and I think he would consider a major input in this area. In many cases, the demand for new houses is being created simply because of the appalling conditions in which people who live in private rented accommodation find themselves. There are 300,000 tenants in that situation.

It is possible that not everyone wants to own their house. The burden is now so enormous that I would not blame couples for deciding that rented accommodation might be a less weighty problem. It is their choice and we should encourage it and allow it as an option. In our cities at least 20 per cent of the housing is overcrowded and at least one-seventh of it has not got basic hygiene facilities.

The Deputy is moving away from the motion.

All this is creating a growing burden on the housing list. If we contrast Government action in this area. what will we find? Despite the appalling and growing crisis, which is there for anyone to see, the Government's steps have been to make tentative suggestions to the building societies that they should only give loans in certain areas. The building societies decided in some cases not to bother listening to the Government and, in any case, it has had no net effect on the position obtaining. The mortgage interest rate is at its highest ever. There is not one scintilla of response from the Government which gave a promise to make it easier to buy a house and cheaper to keep it. What do we get? Nothing but silence.

I am entitled to call that and the other increases we have had brutal in relation to the house mortgage interest rate and house purchase prices. We want the Government to take immediate action to alleviate the effects of the mortgage rate on house purchase. A number of lines of action could be taken. The previous Government had the courage to initiate one suggestion and that was to directly subsidise the building societies at a time when it was clear that, if that subsidy was not available, the whole role of building societies in this particular field could come into question. That is one proposal. Another one is that the Government should make a special finance fund available to allow people to get 99 or 100 per cent mortgages. What is wrong with that? They will still have to work to provide furnishing for the house. It would take them off the housing list and out of the social degeneration that some of them are now living in. It would give them the home they are entitled to. They will be paying back anyway for the rest of their lives.

In recent years there has been the concept of the mortgage repayment going into the second family. It is a new concept on the horizon but it is one we must look at. It would be very sad if the traditional headline which this country has set in relation to home ownership, having as it does one of the highest home ownership rates in Europe, was jeopardised by reckless and irresponsible action which did nothing but fuel inflation and house prices. When it comes to controls or curbs, the Government either do not have, for some reason that I do not understand, the will or the tenacity to do anything about it.

The cost of serviced sites is unchecked. At the same time we have derelict sites everywhere. It must be a marvellous challenge to the Minister and the Government to say "We will solve the housing crisis in our time and ensure, instead of just holding the housing lists and the completion of housing at the rates, give or take a few hundred, at which they were a few years ago, that anybody who wants a home will get it." That is the target the Government should have. They should spell it out in another Green or White Paper, not for national development—a concept so vague and nebulous as to be all things to all people and usually nothing to anybody in the end—but for housing policy. If the Government decide to do this they will get everyone's co-operation.

The biggest and most basic crisis facing people at present is the cost of buying a home of their own. Despite the Government's undoubted goodwill and minor efforts in this area, the situation is getting worse for more people. We all have an obligation to do something about this. I would like the Minister to explain what he is going to do with regard to house mortgage interest rates and the unprecedented and record increases in the cost of housing. They are two very basic issues.

I move the following amendment:

To delete all the words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—

"takes note of the fact that building societies were obliged to increase their mortgage interest rate from 11.5 per cent to 14.15 per cent with effect from 1 December, 1978 in consequence of the increased interest rates on deposits adopted by other commercial lending institutions, particularly associated banks, and shares the general hope that money market conditions will soon enable this high rate to be reduced".

Last week a motion was tabled by four Fine Gael Members in the Seanad on similar lines with regard to this problem. The terms of the motion and the standard of the debate in that House, in which representatives of the three main parties participated, reflected the responsible approach of the Members who drafted the motion and those who spoke in the course of the debate. They appreciated that housing costs and their impact on individuals who wish to house themselves are matters of national concern——

On a point of order, is it in order to discuss a Seanad motion in the context of this motion?

It is not in order to quote from Senators. The Minister is not quoting; he is only referring to a motion in the other House. The Minister is entitled to that and to quote from a Minister in the other House but not from a Senator.

I am merely commenting on the responsible approach in that House to this situation, for which I commend that House.

The present motion criticises first the increase in the rate of interest on house purchase mortgages, secondly the increase in house purchase prices and, thirdly, it asks the Government to alleviate the effects of these developments on house purchasers. I will deal briefly with each of these three matters.

The Fine Gael motion deplores "the brutal increase in house mortgage interest rates". Those responsible for drafting this assertion obviously overlooked the fact that while their party shared power in the Coalition Government the interest rates on building society mortgages jumped from 10 per cent in 1973 to 13.95 per cent in 1976, an overall increase of 39.5 per cent, and this over a period in which the average prices of new houses increased by a staggering 113.5 per cent. There was then no demand from the Fine Gael back benches for the Government of the day, the National Coalition, to take immediate action to alleviate the effects of these increases on house purchasers. What, I may ask, makes the present position so very much different—apart from the fact that this Government have rescued the national housing programme from the decline which had set in before the Coalition Government were removed from office a year-and-a-half ago, with housing output dropping by nearly 3,000 units as between 1975 and 1976? This typifies the double standards or each way bet of the Deputies sponsoring this motion.

The Government made a promise that it would be easier to buy a house and cheaper to keep it.

As those Deputies are of course aware, there were obvious reasons for the increase about three months ago in mortgage interest rates. Like all Deputies who are sincere about the matter, I regret the fact that building societies were forced by international market conditions to increase to 9 per cent the interest rate they had to offer to depositors, thus necessitating a consequential increase in their mortgage interest rates from 11.5 per cent to 14.15 per cent with effect from 1 December last. As the Minister with special responsibility for housing, I am naturally concerned at the effects of these interest rates increases on existing and intending borrowers and purchasers.

Because of the tone of the motion before the Dáil, I feel it is necessary to place clearly on record the cause of the action on interest rates last December by building societies. We in this Government, as with our predecessors in office, cannot stabilise interest rates here while we continue to be aligned with the monetary system of the United Kingdom. The action of the British Government in raising their minimum lending rate in the hope of easing thereby their inflation problems, started the usual chain reaction of higher bank rates in the United Kingdom, thus forcing our banks to follow suit or else to face the outflow of deposits to British banks. The building societies could not escape involvement in these arrangements. If they did not offer higher rates to investors not alone would their net inflows dry up but existing investors could decide to avail of the higher rate of return offered by other lending agencies and start withdrawals.

Building societies are independent financial institutions which offer savers, both large and small, an opportunity to invest their money. They are essentially mutual institutions in which many members invest their savings with a view to getting a loan from the particular society with whom they have invested at some future date for the purpose of purchasing a house. However, it is also a fact that much of the funds invested with the societies comes from people who are interested in the rate of return they will get on their money. Societies do not make profits in the accepted commercial sense. As mutual institutions, their aim is to provide a margin between the rate of interest they pay to the investor and the rate they charge the borrower, which, after expenses and taxation, is sufficient to leave a small surplus to maintain adequate reserves for the protection of their investors.

Building societies are unusual financial institutions in that they manage to borrow short and lend in the long-term. Investors can withdraw on demand or at short notice, but mortgage loans are advanced for periods of 20 to 25 years. As independent financial institutions, societies are obliged to compete with other such institutions, in particular the banks, both to retain the funds already invested with them and to attract further new funds. To do so they must offer an investment rate at least as attractive, and preferably more attractive than the other institutions.

Any substantial withdrawal of funds would have disastrous effects on the operation of the societies and the private housing programme of which they are the major support. In 1977 societies supplied £119 million or 70 per cent of the total amount lent by all lending agencies, £171 million for private housing. In 1978 they lent over £147 million, or 66 per cent of the £223 million advanced by all lending agencies to finance the purchase of private houses. Between 1971 and 1976 building societies contributed nearly £600 million to private house purchase financing in Ireland —nearly 50 per cent of the total amount provided by all lending agencies in that period.

After consideration of the situation the societies who are members of the Irish Building Societies Association decided to increase the interest rate paid to investors from 7 per cent to 9 per cent as from 1 December 1978. This gave rise to a consequent need to increase the mortgage rate to 14.15 per cent. I want to emphasise that the increase in the investment rate does not restore the differential over that offered by the banks to anything like it has been.

The societies have nearly always enjoyed an advantage of anything from ½ per cent to 2½ per cent over the minimum bank deposit interest rates. Bank deposit rates were increased by 2 per cent on 16 May 1978, but building societies increased their investment rate by 1½ per cent as from 1 June. Bank deposit rates were further increased by 1 per cent with effect from 27 June but building societies did not then increase their rates. Banks increased their deposit rates by a further 2½ per cent with effect from 15 November last. As from 1 December 1978, the societies' differential over the banks' deposits under £5,000 has been only ½ per cent while for deposits of between £5,000 and £25,000 the societies' rate is ½ per cent below the bank rate. For deposits over £25,000 there is now a margin of 1 per cent in favour of the banks as against the societies.

I must make it clear that there is no power available to me in the Building Societies Act, 1976, to interfere in the setting by societies of their interest rates. This is so for the very good reason that it was decided when the Act was being drafted that societies themselves are the best judges of the appropriate interest rates necessary to generate sufficient inflow of moneys to enable them to meet their mortgage commitments. I agree that this is the right approach. They have always acted capably and responsibly in the matter and I am satisfied that they acted responsibly in this instance.

Criticism has been voiced about the fact that the societies have increased their mortgage rate by considerably more than 2 per cent. The consequential increase has to be higher in order to compensate the societies for the additional amount they must pay as tax on behalf of investors who receive their interest payments free of tax. I am aware also that societies have been criticised on the grounds that their operating costs are too high in comparison with their counterparts in the United Kingdom and also because they are alleged to be making big profits here. In this regard I would point out that Professor Cleary who carried out an in-depth investigation of building societies in this country for the National Prices Commission was satisfied that operating costs were not unreasonably high. The societies themselves are well aware of the need to keep their costs at a reasonable level and indeed their management expenses are low in comparison with those of other fiancial institutions in the State. This is particularly laudable in view of the rapid growth and expansion of the societies, particularly in recent years. Assets have increased from £87 million in 1970 to £600 million now, a sevenfold increase. They are now paying nearly three times the number of loans they paid in 1970.

In so far as the profit criticism of the societies is concerned, I have already said that building societies are not profit-making institutions in the commercial sense, as are other institutions. Their objective is to achieve a surplus sufficient to maintain an adequate reserve. In the context of their rapid growth in the past decade, the societies' reserves have had to be considerably increased in order to be adequate. It is well to place on record the fact that out of the interest of £14.15 paid on each £100 of mortgage finance borrowed, it is calculated that £9 is payable to investors, £2.92 is paid as income tax on behalf of investors, management expenses account for £1.28, leaving an undistributed surplus of 95p which, after tax, leaves only 66p for reserves.

I should now like to refer back to May 1973 when the National Coalition Government introduced a subsidy for building societies. At that time the inflow into societies was low and falling rapidly. The building societies decided to increase the interest rate offered to investors by 1 per cent. This would have necessitated an increase of at least 1¼ per cent in the mortgage rate. The Government at that time decided to give a temporary 1 per cent subsidy to societies to enable them to pay investors an extra 1 per cent and hold the existing mortgage rate of that time.

The subsidy was subsequently reduced to ¾ per cent in August 1975 and was abolished in February 1976. That subsidy, and this should be emphasised, was to encourage investment with the societies and while it indirectly had the effect of reducing the mortgage rate, its primary purpose was to attract more money into building societies. This inflow of funds to societies had been falling dramatically at that time. The situation now is different in that inflows into building societies are at an exceptionally high level.

Before I leave the question of interest rates payable on house purchase loans, I want to refer to the recovery which has been taking place in the case of the SDA loans schemes operated by local authorities. This scheme had been practically eliminated under the National Coalition Government which, between September 1973 and June 1977 had made no increase in the loan and income limits. Only £17 million was provided for SDA loans under that Government's last budget in 1977. The present Government increased the income limit by 50 per cent and have doubled the previous maximum loan available to SDA applicants.

Loan payments increased to £26 million last year and provision has been made for an expenditure of £43.5 million this year. The proportion of the mortgage market served by this loan scheme rose from 10 per cent in 1977 to 14.4 per cent last year. The interest rate on money payable by local authorities on money borrowed from the Local Loans Fund to finance the scheme rose from 11 per cent to 12 per cent as from 1 December last, hardly what one could justifiably term a "brutal" increase, as the motion indicates.

The second part of the motion refers to "the steep increase in house purchase prices". As I mentioned earlier, this topic was dealt with very fully in the Seanad last week and I do not intend to cover the same ground again at any great length on this occasion.

Deputies opposite tend to base their assessment of trends in house prices on an unqualified use of statistics set out in Tables 19a and 19b of my Department's quarterly bulletin. I have had occasion to warn the House previously about the danger of this approach. The bulletin itself states quite explicitly that though the statistics of house prices are useful as indicators of general trends in average house prices over a given period, they cannot be accepted as completely accurate records of housing costs at any given time.

For example, the houses concerned are not necessarily comparable from quarter to quarter or from area to area throughout the country. Furthermore, the average prices recorded can be influenced from quarter to quarter by changes in the distribution of loan approvals amongst lending agencies.

Subject to that reservation, over the four quarters of 1978 the rate of new house price increases recorded in the bulletin fell from 11.7 per cent in the three months to 31 March 1978 to 8.4 per cent in the June quarter, to 3.4 per cent in the September quarter of 1978 and I am glad to say that the bulletin for the quarter ended 31 December 1978 which will be published shortly, will record a slight reduction in average prices during that period. It means that over the full year 1978, average new house prices, as set out in the bulletin, rose by 24.8 per cent—undoubtedly a substantial increase but one which was well below the staggering increase of 36 per cent which occurred during the Coalition's Government's first year of office in 1973-74.

House prices have been rising constantly—not just over the past year or two, but for decades past. They have increased more steeply over the past year in other European countries than in Ireland. The fact that we have managed to bring the rate of increase under control is due to the awareness by the Government of the trend in prices and because we were concerned about the difficulties to which, if allowed to continue, it would give rise in the case of persons of modest means. The Government have kept the situation under review and took the necessary initiatives to deal with it. This process of control was not an emergency operation begun early last year. Measures to control the escalation in house prices were put in hands soon after we resumed office in mid-1977 as part of a wide-ranging package of actions in relation to housing.

When we took over Government again in July 1977 we soon discovered that the controls on new house prices, as operated by the certificates of reasonable value system, which the previous Fianna Fáil Government had introduced in 1973, had not been strengthened, contrary to what should have been expected after a period of rapid price escalation. Indeed, the controls had been weakened by the drastic curtailment in 1976 of eligibility for new house grants.

In those circumstances the certificate of reasonable value system was immediately extended to all grant-type new houses provided for sale and also to flats. Previously houses in schemes of three or fewer and all flats were exempt from the controls. The effect of this move, combined with the liberalisation of the schemes of new house grants, was to increase from approximately 40 per cent to 70 per cent the proportion of new private houses brought within the scope of house price control.

Further positive action was taken by the Government last year. Evidence was becoming available that the rise in house prices was being influenced by builders moving out of the construction of modestly priced houses eligible for grants, and for which certificates of reasonable value, were therefore required, and into the higher priced market where profits were greater and where they would not be subject to the system of house price control, as in the more modest house market.

To deal with this situation the Government decided that for a trial period at least 60 per cent of the total funds available to building societies for mortgages should be allocated in providing loans not exceeding £13,000 each and that at least a further 20 per cent of their available funds should be allocated in providing loans of between £13,000 and £16,000.

The societies were also informed that certificates of reasonable value should be furnished by all applicants for loans not exceeding £16,000 for the purchase of new houses. The Government's decision was intended to ensure that the money available should finance the purchase of the greatest feasible number of reasonable priced houses and that all purchasers of new houses with loans under £16,000 would be assured of getting reasonable value for their investment. Since we introduced them, these moves have already produced significant results in so far as the trend in average gross house prices is concerned.

In the case of previously occupied houses the average price of houses for which loans were approved by the main lending agencies increased by 17.8 per cent as between the last quarter of 1977 and the end of 1978. I am particularly pleased to mention that over the last three months of 1978 the average prices of previously occupied houses dropped by 6 per cent.

The motion calls on the Government to take steps to alleviate the difficulties being experienced by house purchasers. May I say that in regard to supports to housing the Government need no prompting by the Opposition. We did more to promote the national housing programme and provided more practical aid to individual house purchasers in our first year in office than the Coalition Government did in the preceding four-and-a-half years. Rates on dwelling houses were abolished. The £1,000 new house grant and a far more generous scheme of house improvement grants were introduced. The SDA loan and income limits were greatly increased. The maximum low-rise mortgage loan was also increased and eligibility for the loans has been recently liberalised. Subsidy on private housing sites provided by local authorities was increased by 66 per cent. Contrast our commitment to encouraging housing activity with the record of the previous Government, which introduced such severe restrictions on eligibility for new house and reconstruction grants that these schemes were, in effect, being phased out, with only £4½ million being spent on grants in 1977 against a provision of £30 million this year. The SDA scheme was, as I have already remarked, also effectively being wound down. In the light of their own dismal record when in power, one must question the good faith of the Deputies opposite in now calling for special aids for house purchasers. May I say, however, that if the Government were satisfied that the present position justified special measures, then the necessary action would be taken. Our track record over the past year-and-a half can leave no doubt that we would take action if we felt it was needed.

The measures we have put in hands to curb the escalation of house prices, the unprecedented amount of money now available to finance mortgages and the temporary controls on the amounts of individual loans advanced by building societies make it easier to purchase a modestly priced house. Last year a total of £280 million in mortgages were approved by all the major lending agencies. This was over £60 million more than the total amount approved in 1977.

Our record can be put beside the record of the National Coalition. We achieved more in one year than they achieved in four-and-a-half years when the grants system was being wound down because of the restrictions imposed by them and when the SDA loans were practically phased out. We can at last lay claim to the fact that our policies and the action we took got the housing programme moving again. People can now look forward to owning their own houses.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister for the Environment has put down an amendment to our motion in which he notes the fact that building societies were obliged to increase their mortgage interest rates from 11.5 per cent to 14.15 per cent with effect from 1 December 1978 in consequence of the increased interest rate on deposits adopted by other commercial lending institutions, particularly associated banks, and shares the general hope that money market conditions will soon enable the high rate to be reduced.

The Minister's contribution to the appalling high rate of interest and the appallingly steep increase in house prices is to express the pious hope that money market conditions will soon enable high interest rates to be reduced. That is the contribution of the Government and of the Minister to the high rate of interest and the appalling increase in the cost of houses. That would be bad coming from any Government or from any Minister for the Environment, but when it comes from a Government who got into power on a solemn pledge to make it easier for young people to own a house and cheaper to keep it, it is nothing but a cynical disregard for their promises and a cynical disregard for those who are looking for houses. It is a fact that when Fianna Fáil returned to office in 1977 the price of houses jumped immediately and dramatically. The truth is that since then the price of new houses has increased by about 40 per cent. That is the reality of the situation. The £1,000 grant they talked so much about before the election had the effect of increasing the price of houses instead of making it easier for people to get houses. We know by now that the £1,000 grant which some people got—many more who thought they would get it did not—has been gobbled up about four times over. The people who are now seeking to buy new houses or to build houses of their own are infinitely worse off than they were before Fianna Fáil came into power and before they promised the £1,000 grant.

It is in that situation that we put down this resolution deploring the brutal—I make no apology for using that word— increase in interest rates and call on the Government to do something about it. The Minister has dealt with many things but the one thing he did not deal with was what proposals he had to alleviate the effect of it on house purchasers and to cushion them against this increase in the mortgage interest rates and the increase in the price of houses. The mortgage interest rate at present stands at 14.15 per cent which is an all-time record. The Minister talks about difficulties that arose during the international recession in 1974 and 1975, but when the National Coalition were in power the interest rates were lower—under 14 per cent as the Minister concedes, although in this House the other day when I said that interest rates were now at an all-time record he contradicted me to say that one time when we were in office they were something higher. He now concedes indirectly that he was wrong then and that he is in the unenviable position of presiding over the building industry when interest rates have now reached an all-time record.

The same Minister conceded that when we were in office we subsidised interest rates. He says that of course we were not subsidising interest rates, that what we were doing was enabling the building societies to pay more so that they could attract more money into their funds. However, he does concede that the effect of what we did was to keep down the rate of interest by 1 per cent, and we did that at a time of international recession and international difficulties, because we felt that the rate of interest, which was lower then than it is now, was too high and we subsidised it to the extent of 1 per cent. I call on the Minister now to do that or something like it. When he and his colleagues were in Opposition they were not against subsidies in other directions. They said that food subsidies were not nearly high enough and if they got back into power they would increase the £63 million which was being paid in food subsidies to a much greater sum, but of course they have reduced that by £22 million or one-third. When they refused to subsidise the interest rates they are at least being consistent in office where they are not prepared to subsidise anything or to relieve people from the brutal—I repeat the word—effect of these high interest rates.

When they were in Opposition no subsidies could be too high. They wanted more food subsidies, they wanted more subsidies for interest rates. Their performance is disgraceful for a Government who got into power on the solemn undertaking in their manifesto to make it easier to buy a house and cheaper to keep it. They have not done anything to relieve the people of these interest rates. Not alone that, they are coercing—and that is not too strong a term—people who can ill afford to do so to build or buy their own houses, they are doing that by shoving people off the local authority housing list and they are investigating with a fine comb the incomes of the people who seek local authority houses. They are striking them off the housing list and forcing them into the private sector. They cannot deny that they are doing that because the whole trend of their Green Paper and White Paper is to the effect that there would be a lesser demand for public authority houses. At the same time, when house prices are continuing to rocket, as hopefully I will prove with figures tomorrow evening, the Minister dealt in his speech with the steadying off of house prices during the end of last year. I concede that there was a steadying off, but he did not give us the figures for December or for January and February of this year. The January and February figures are out because they come out about the first fortnight in each month, and those figures show that inflation in housing is on again, that the indications for 1979 are that housing costs will increase and that the 5 per cent figure given by the Minister for Finance in his budget speech has no hope of being met in regard to housing.

Those are the reasons which compelled this party to put down this motion. The Minister seems to be indignant because we refer to a record rate of interest as brutal. What is it only brutal? The Minister has talked about the SDA. The SDA loans which he has increased up to £9,000 are of no use because the threshold of income to qualify for one of those loans is about £65 or £67 per week and people who want to borrow £9,000 simply cannot afford to service that amount. Of course if they borrow £9,000 for their local authority to build a house and shoulder the enormous responsibility of that house they find that the £9,000 is of no use to them because, due to the drastic increase in the price of houses, they either have to have saved a good amount of money or they have to borrow elsewhere to meet the very substantial gap between the £9,000 that they may get from the local authority if they are fit to repay it. That is really what it amounts to. A person able to repay a loan of £9,000 would not qualify for the loan from the local authority. Even if he did, and could by some magic service the £9,000 loan, he would find that it would not be nearly sufficient to build a house in the private sector and he would have to go elsewhere to get another few thousand pounds, to build the house before he could put a stick of furniture into it. It is alarming.

I have stated that the price of houses has increased alarmingly since Fianna Fáil resumed office. They have done nothing to control building contractors, and building contractors in the private sector have run amok since this Government came back to power and they got the green light, or the blind eye was turned on them, to run amok. The Minister, while disowning his own bulletin which is issued quarterly by his Department and which gives house prices in great detail, went on to say that for 1978 that bulletin showed an increase of 24.8 per cent in housing costs.

Debate adjourned.
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