asked the Minister for Health if he is satisfied that the ethics codes drawn up by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin and circulated to hospitals is not unwarranted interference in the management of hospitals, whose funds are contributed largely from the State.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Hospitals Circular.
10.
I am not aware that any of the hospitals concerned so regard it.
Is it not a fact that a statement of this kind advocating nonco-operation in what are considered to be non-Catholic procedures in hospitals could lead to discrimination against the appointment of non-Catholic doctors?
I am surprised that the Deputy uses a phrase like "non-Catholic". I am sure he knows that phrase is not very acceptable to people who are not members of the Catholic Church.
I apologise for that. I thought the Minister might understand it better.
I am well aware of the feelings and susceptibilities of all the different religious bodies in this country on that matter. I am talking now about terminology and I thought the Deputy was asking me to discuss this matter in terms of "Catholic" and "non-Catholic". I do not wish to do that.
The Minister is not being argumentative.
In the light of the situation in the North and the very important religious issue, is it not advisable that this kind of circular should not be sent to hospitals where Catholic members of the staff could be persuaded to act in a way which would be offensive to Protestant members of the staff?
I am not sure if anything like that is involved. I give the Deputy this assurance. This matter will, I hope, be governed in future by a common contract for all hospital consultants. I also hope that this will be supplemented by a common selection procedure for all hospitals. It is desirable that the question of who should or should not be appointed to hospitals should be governed in this way. The number of appointments should be regulated by Comhairle na nOspidéal, a common impartial selection procedure should be devised if possible, and the conditions of consultants serving in hospitals should be governed by a common contract for all consultants. Work on that is very well advanced at present.
I completely accept the Minister's good intentions on that. In the Bill we are discussing at the moment, in relation to what is described as non-medical family planning devices, if a Catholic member of the staff accepts the archbishop's direction that he should not co-operate in non-Catholic measures, what happens where there is a Protestant doctor?
The Deputy cannot ask me to deal with a hypothetical situation.
That is the real situation.
My understanding of the situation is that each hospital governs their own procedures in this regard. I understand that hospitals have their own code of ethics to which the hospital and the staff adhere. In the report which the working group on the consultants' contracts submitted to me they stated that they recognised the right of any hospital authority to safeguard the ethical principles on which their character or constitution are based. We must afford every hospital the right to develop their own code of ethics, and to adhere to that code. I hope that in no case the code of ethics of a hospital will have any sectarian implications in our hospitals. The Deputy mentioned the Family Planning Bill we are discussing at present. I would assure the Deputy that as far as I am aware, and I am probably better informed in this aspect than anybody else in the House, because of the prolonged serious discussions I have had, the proposals in the family planning legislation are as acceptable to all the other churches as they are to what the Deputy referred to as the church representing the majority of the people.
Can I ask a final question?
Question No. 11. We have given unusual attention to this question. We cannot give any further special time.
I wish to ask just one final question. In the circumstances of his very reasonable answer does the Minister consider that this circular was intrusive, offensive and unnecessary?
I hope that Deputy Browne will agree that there must not be unwarranted interference with the right of a bishop or an archbishop to make comments when he thinks necessary.
Is the Minister aware that the directive issued creates serious problems for Comhairle na nOspidéal who are responsible for the appointment of doctors? Comhairle na nOspidéal does not take the religious thinking or practices of the doctor into account, so this creates a serious situation between the board of management of Catholic hospitals and Comhairle na nOspidéal, because——
The Deputy has asked a question.
——what are probably wrongly referred to as non-Catholic doctors will be appointed by Comhairle na nOspidéal.
I wish the Deputy would stop using the word "non-Catholic".
I do not like the word either, but we are talking about doctors of other religious persuasions being appointed to these hospitals where it can create serious problems.
The Deputy's supplementary question is based on a misapprehension of the situation. Comhairle na nOspidéal do not make appointments and are not responsible for appointments, they are responsible for deciding on the level of consultants appropriate to certain institutions. They have nothing to do with making individual appointments.
They are involved in the appointments to hospitals.
They are not.
Will the Minister then consider——
Question No. 11.
A final question. Would the Minister consider that the code of ethics drawn up by the Catholic hierarchy in relation to these hospitals considerably limits research into methods of family planning, into genetics and into other aspects that may conflict with the Catholic teaching but which could be advantageous to mothers and others? Would the Minister consider that especially in relation to medical genetics, this would create a serious problem?
I understand that one of the primary recommendations of this document which was circulated to certain hospitals, but not to all of them, was that an ethical committee should be established in each hospital. Even taking the document at its face value it seems that it will be still left to the hospital to prepare their own code of ethics.
Question No. 11.
I am sorry to labour this point, but is the Minister aware that these directives were very specific that no doctor should carry out any procedures, practices or even educational programmes contrary to the hierarchy's teaching? Genetics come within the ambit of that.
I do not feel that it is my——
I received the original document.
Order. I am calling Question No. 11.
Will the Minister elaborate on that?
I do not feel that it is incumbent on me to defend or condemn this document. The document says that those who accept appointments or employment in any hospital should do so on the understanding that they will not violate the ethical policy and accepted practices of the hospital.
Of the Catholic hospital.
It just says, of the hospital.
They were only issued to Catholic hospitals.
We all accept that a hospital as a medical institution is entitled in this difficult modern world to draw up their own code of practices and should have some code of ethics.
On the appointment of doctors of a different religious persuasion——
We will not have argument.
——to the hospital, it debars those doctors from being appointed.
(Interruptions.)
As far as it lies within my power as Minister for Health, I will make absolutely certain that no appointment to any medical institution is decided on religious grounds.
Because the Minister makes 99 per cent of the money available to the hospitals.
Order, please. Question No. 11.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply to Question No. 9 and the fact that I was not allowed to ask supplementary questions, although other Members were allowed to make statements without any response from the Chair, I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to raise that item on the adjournment.
I will communicate with the Deputy. It is not fair to say that there was no response from the Chair.
On a point of order, both Deputies Nolan and Moore made statements rather than asked questions without any response from the Chair in the last few minutes.
I asked a question.
Question No. 11.